June 13, 2025 • 29 mins
Helen Stewart, Managing Director of Now You're Talking, shares how therapy can support children through parental separation and divorce, drawing from both professional expertise and personal experience.
Helen Stuart
Helen has always advocated for good mental health, and vocalised the importance of ease of access to mental health support throughout her career. This has seen her working across community, outreach, counselling and domestic abuse prevention roles. Now Helen brings her wealth of knowledge, managerial experience through TLC: Talk, Listen, Change, and personal connections to mental health to drive Now You’re Talking’s success.
Helen is passionate about leading a socially responsible, business for good, enabling contributions to made back to TLC making the charity’s mission possible.
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
To learn more about our podcast sponsor Ampla Finance – access their product guide here: https://bit.ly/3Ieqmuc
Or complete enquiry form https://bit.ly/3W4J7pz and one of the team will be in touch.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tamsin Caine (00:06):
Hello and welcome to today's episode of the Smart
Divorce Podcast, and if you'reon YouTube, you'll see that I
feel like I'm being eaten aliveby a triffid next to me because
I am in a Manchester officetoday, so I do look like
Crosstown, and between them in asauna and a greenhouse.
But I am very pleased to bejoined today by the lovely Helen
(00:31):
Stuart, who's come to talk tome today about therapy and her
practice, which is called NowYou're Talking.
Welcome, Helen, it's lovely tosee you.
Thank you so much.
Helen Stuart (00:44):
Thank you and
Tamsin Caine (00:45):
It's brilliant to have you join us today.
Do you want to tell us a bitabout how you started in therapy
and how Now You're Talking cameabout?
Helen Stuart (00:56):
Yeah, of course, my name's Helen Stuart.
I am the Managing Director ofNow You're Talking, so we
provide therapy for individuals,couples, children and young
people.
So we're here to make therapysafer, more accessible, more
simple and effectively morehuman, and what I mean by that
(01:18):
is that when I wanted to accesstherapy when I was younger, I
found it very confusing, wasn'tsure where it was that I needed
to go.
There are lots of places andpeople that say that they're a
(01:45):
counsellors who you know, youcan trust and you can book on
our platform, and it's all donesafely and securely on that
platform.
We also partner with businessesto help reduce absenteeism, to
tackle people that have been offwork for a long time and give
us some support around gettingback into the workplace.
(02:07):
And, lastly, but absolutely notleast, we are a profit with
purpose organization, whichmeans 66% of our profits that we
make are fed back into ourparent charity, which is TLC,
Talk, Listen Change, which isbased in Manchester.
Tamsin Caine (02:24):
Wow, amazing, amazing, so much that you've got
going on and we're going to doa series of these podcasts
talking about different aspectsof the therapy that you're doing
, about the different peoplethat you're you work with, and
it's all relating toco-parenting and to parents when
(02:48):
their children are goingthrough divorce.
So we're going to start offtoday, and today's focus is very
much going to be about children.
So lots of parents panic whenthey separate and they think
that it's going to have amassive impact on the children.
Is that something that you see?
Helen Stuart (03:09):
yeah.
So it really varies, and Ithink from a personal
perspective on this.
So my parents separated when Iwas nine years old, so I feel
very passionate about this interms of that support that we're
able to give children and youngpeople.
Obviously, when you are goingthrough a breakup and you go
(03:31):
through a separation, there isso much emotion going on for the
parents and it's very, verycomplex and I think that trying
to then adding the layer ofnavigating kind of the children
through that is a lot and Ithink that so my previous work
so I've did a lot of work aroundchildren, young people, who
(03:54):
were experiencing mental healthissues and these had stemmed
from lots of different problems.
But what we did see is thatwhen there had been a
relationship breakdown, whetherthat had resulted in a divorce
or separation, if that hadn'tbeen managed in a way where the
child felt safe to kind of talkabout how they were feeling, we
(04:14):
did see that manifest into otherissues.
And now children are quite, youknow, they can mask sort of how
they're feeling quite wellsometimes and it might come out
in different ways.
So you know, can mask um sort ofhow they're feeling quite well
sometimes and it might come outin different ways.
So you know it might be like oh, they're absolutely fine, I
don't feel like it has affectedthem.
Actually, you know theirbehavior in school's not great.
(04:35):
They've fallen out with loadsof friends at school.
You know it can kind ofmanifest in different ways.
So I think it's you know, and Ithink this is this, is it's
really hard and I think what myfirst and foremost thing is
actually going through a breakup, going through a divorce, is
really really difficult and it'sabout making sure that we are,
um, keep in touch with kind ofwhat's going on with the
(04:55):
children as well and not forgetthat they're involved in all of
this, which I absolutely knowthat people don't do.
But I think when there's lotsof other stuff going on, you can
quickly get that, can kind ofget swept into it all as well.
Tamsin Caine (05:06):
No, I think you're absolutely right there, and my
parents divorced when I was 12,so similar thing, and I'm a lot
older than you.
It was it was in a time whentherapy was something that
happened in America and it justwasn't like no normal people in
the UK just didn't go and gettherapy.
(05:27):
But I think it's a useful tooland and I think and could have,
could have massively helped.
Well, if, if we're talking toparents who who are going
through divorce or going througha relationship breakdown, what
should they be looking for interms of signs from their
children that they're not copingas well as we perhaps think?
(05:51):
So you mentioned behavior inschool.
Are there other things thatmight give, might give that away
, that they perhaps need someextra help?
Helen Stuart (06:00):
yeah, I think becoming very withdrawn I think
think there's kind of like themore obvious ones is obviously
becoming more withdrawn, and Ithink with children there is a
lot of internal blame that goeson when parents divorce and I
know myself that that issomething that I massively
(06:20):
internalised and, you know, evenat nine years old I was like,
well, this must be somethingthat I've done and I think if
that's not verbalized andvocalized, that can quickly
spiral um.
So I think it's from the offsetis being really quite open and
that can make, as a parent, canmake you feel really vulnerable
(06:41):
at an already really vulnerabletime because you're having to
say, you know, let's be openabout this, let's talk about it
and, as hard as that might feel,actually like it will hopefully
help in the long run that youkind of had those conversations
early on.
I think, again, where we are insociety, you have social media
(07:03):
and, depending on kind of theage of the of your children, um,
I don't think there is aperfect age to go through a
divorce in terms of children.
I think you know it happens atany age and everyone will be
affected differently.
I think kind of having an eye on, on what maybe might be playing
out on social media and thingslike that, because unfortunately
with social media, there is awhole host of information online
(07:26):
and if they feel like maybecan't get the answers from you
or they can't get thatinformation from you, they might
turn to other sources.
So it's kind of keeping an eyeon all of those aspects which is
really hard.
And I think I keep kind ofhoning on this point that when
you are going through this,absolutely there is so much
going on.
But if we can try and havereally open and honest
(07:48):
conversations right from thebeginning and kind of create a
safe space where children canfeel that they can talk about
kind of how they're feelingabout it, and that emotion or
how they're feeling might feelso uncomfortable for you, they
might feel angry about it, theymight be really sad about it,
and I think that when you'regoing through something, it's
really easy to kind ofinternalize that, take that blow
(08:10):
, all those kind of things.
But I think as much as you cankind of stay in a place where
you're like I'm just hearing andI'm just listening how they're
feeling, rather than having tosay I know, this is all my fault
, um, which is where therapy canreally help try and navigate
some of those feelings.
Tamsin Caine (08:28):
Yeah absolutely, and so if you've spotted some of
those things, some of the thebehaviors that that you've
suggested might be recognizable,so they've become very
withdrawn, misbehaving at school, trying to get your attention,
(08:48):
all those sorts of things thatare possible, how might you
introduce the possibility ofthem talking to somebody like
you?
How can they talk to theirchildren?
And is it age specific?
Would you have a a differentway of speaking to?
I mean, presumably you wouldyounger children as opposed to
(09:11):
young people .
Helen Stuart (09:13):
There's lots of different um modalities in terms
of different therapies that youcan have for different ages.
You know um for a child asyoung as five.
You know, for example, you'renot going to have the same
intervention for a child at theage of 12.
You, I think it's aboutintroducing the idea that they
can talk to somebody who's,because I think that we often
(09:36):
heavily rely on our supportnetwork in that circle of
support, which is great and weabsolutely should do.
But sometimes we need I don'treally like to call it like a
professional, I mean, they areprofessionals but somebody that
can kind of help navigate someof those emotions and flip it,
(09:58):
maybe help you see it from adifferent point of view, but
doesn't come from any particularside.
It's a neutral, isn't it?
It's a neutral third party.
That Absolutely.
And I think that, even as aparent, if you think you can
kind of, you know, youabsolutely know your child best
and you can talk to them, butsometimes they just need someone
.
That's not going to come fromany sort of position.
(10:21):
So, bringing that up inconversation, I'm quite hopeful
in terms of the direction we'regoing as a society, that
counselling and therapy isbecoming more normalised and I
would say definitely sort ofaround the pandemic, and the
young people that have gonethrough the pandemic are
probably more open to it thananybody else.
(10:41):
But I think it's about againdoing that process together, not
just saying to your childyou're going to see this person
and this is how, this is howit's going to be, you know,
talking, having a conversationand saying what do you think
about speaking to somebody?
Um, one of the things that wedo is that we have pictures of
(11:02):
all of our counselors and ourtherapists on our site, because
there is something about seeingan image of somebody and
thinking, okay, well, that's theperson I'm going to speak to.
And then what we also do is wearrange and we have like a 15
minute free call so you can havea conversation to see.
Because I'm a massive believerin you know I wouldn't choose
who you should work with or whoyour friends should be, because
(11:25):
you know yourself best.
So it's about trying to choosesomeone who you know you're
going to get the best from, andand when you look at kind of the
research, is that actually thattherapeutic journey is so
important, naturally, if youhave a really strong
relationship with your therapist, your counselor, and actually
you are more likely to engage,you are more likely to be able
(11:46):
to embark on that journey andreally take that seriously and
and make some changes.
If that's what you want to do,um, so definitely would do that
process together.
Children often feel like they'rehaving things done to them all
the time, um, and you know, whenyou're in the midst of going
through something as complex asdivorce, this could be another
extra layer of well, you're justtelling me to do this.
(12:08):
So I think involving them inthe process if they're old
enough to be able to go throughthat process with you and you
know, almost kind of empoweringthem that they can be the expert
in this and you're followingtheir lead and you're just kind
of trying to lead them and guidethem.
It is a hard space to be in,but I would say that that is
where we see the.
The most positive change iswhen children have felt like
(12:31):
they've been part of thatdecision
yeah, okay, I like that.
I know, imagine there's a kindof hard line.
But how does the therapy change, for it's a child as opposed to
a t..
?
I mean, let's start with withyounger children, so like
primary school age, I guess, andeven that is quite a broad
(12:52):
range, isn't it?
But so primary school age,perhaps younger primary school,
what?
What could they expect?
What?
Just how does therapy work forthem?
So a lot of the time it's through art therapy
and play therapy.
So it's about trying to workwith, you know, a young child to
(13:12):
express their emotions in a waythat feels quite safe.
We can't expect really youngchildren to be able to
articulate how exactly they'refeeling.
So doing this through drawings,doing this through play we had
a young girl a couple of yearsago from the charity work that
we did and she would always drawsuns.
(13:34):
She loved drawing suns but shealways would put, um, a sad face
in them and that was kind ofher way of trying to explain and
express that she was feelingreally sad, although kind of
things that I think.
I think how she was trying tosay is like things felt
sometimes it felt good, but shestill felt sad.
Now, a child's not going to beable to articulate that in words
(13:56):
, but being able to use that,you know, through drawing and
even through play as well.
You know, even I've got afour-year-old and you know when
he's sad and I'm trying to sayto him you know, what are you
feeling sad about?
Sometimes they're just soworked up and they can't tell
you and it's frustrating in theparents.
(14:16):
You're like I just want to knowwhat's wrong.
But yeah, I think it's aboutunderstanding that they'll have
a different way of communicatingthat and that's where a
counsellor or therapist canbring that really unique skill
set to be able to work with thatchild and help them kind of
work through some of thosecomplex emotions.
Tamsin Caine (14:33):
That's amazing.
It's brilliant to know thatthere is something available
even for little children, whocan't necessarily sit and tell
you what's wrong.
And then for older children,perhaps secondary school age
what does it start to look likefor them?
Helen Stuart (14:51):
so that is more um , really again led by the child,
but that would be more sort ofum take form and kind of talking
therapy, so having aconversation, um, but really
just trying to help the m unhit,kind of how they're feeling,
and you know a lot.
You know we talk all the timeabout teenagers and how angry
they are, and you know a lot.
You know we talk all the timeabout teenagers and how angry
(15:12):
they are and you know they'regoing, but actually that's just
them trying to express emotionin a way that feels safe to them
.
You know a lot of young boys.
The only emotion that feelskind of valid for a boy is anger
.
So that's why they'll act out inanger, because that feels like
the most accepted way to behave.
So it's about trying to workthat through.
(15:33):
So it's not.
It doesn't feel overly onerousin terms of tell me how you feel
and what you know.
I think that when you see umyou know counseling and therapy
and films and you know tvprograms it feels very direct
lie on the couch, tell me howyou're feeling.
And even when I went to study Idid my degree even I think I had
(15:56):
this like all on the prepre-concept of what it would be
like and it just actually justisn't like that.
Um, but it's very much aboutbeing client-led and you know,
working with that young personand I think as well is that it
takes time.
This isn't like you go for twosessions and your child all of a
sudden knows exactly how totalk and has got loads of coping
(16:21):
mechanisms all of a sudden.
It's not how it works.
It is a commitment that youhave to work through, but you do
see some massive differenceswith the children that we work
with.
Tamsin Caine (16:33):
I guess that's a good point.
So what outcomes are you hopingfor or expecting as a result of
of your children having?
Because the outcomes a parentmight be expecting might be
different to what you think isrealistic.
It's not a magic wand, but whatoutcomes would you expect that
(16:55):
child or person to have?
Helen Stuart (16:57):
yeah, it's really variable, I think, because
obviously it depends.
You know, if the child has comewith um, a very specific
traumatic situation, it might bekind of talking through that.
You know, if a child is dealingwith a separation or divorce
with their parents, it might bethat they have really strong
emotions, that they feel likethey blame one parent over the
(17:19):
other and actually the outcomeof that therapy would be to try
and unpick and understand wherethat was coming from, um, and
try and move them to a placewhere they could not, they might
still feel like that and wecan't change how somebody feels
about something but move them toa place where they could not,
they might still feel like thatand we can't change how somebody
feels about something, but movethem to a place where they can
talk through it.
Talk through it where they'renot getting really angry about
(17:40):
it or they're not sort of, youknow, acting out and things like
that.
But again, that is a process.
I think everybody's againparents' expectations of what
therapy will do is exactly whatyou've just said that it's a
magic wand, it's going to fixeverything, but ultimately it is
a process that people have togo through and it's someone that
(18:04):
can help you navigate youthrough some of the most
difficult times.
Or, on the flip side, you know,for me me, for example therapy
is more like a maintenance thingfor me, so I just go once a
month and it's just a chance tocheck in see how I am.
So there's a really broad waythat people can use it.
I think, the more we kind ofshift our perspective that
(18:27):
actually it's not necessarilyfor crisis point all the time.
So you actually this is anongoing thing that's going to
support me and all my childrenor whoever.
I think that's the shift thatwe need to try and make.
Tamsin Caine (18:40):
Yeah, it's a big shift, isn't it, from from where
we are now to I need therapy.
Well, why are you still havingtherapy?
But because I want to carry onfeeling.
Okay, yeah, and I think that'sa big shift, isn't it is there?
Are there any children or isthere any circumstance in which
(19:01):
therapy would not be appropriate?
Helen Stuart (19:04):
um, I think if you've got children who might be
, you know, have underlying umadditional needs or they might
be going through um, you know umdiagnosis, that you know.
We know there are well, I thinkprobably I'm not sure the figure
of like thousands of childrenthat are waiting lists, you know
, to be diagnosed for um, youknow um, neurodiverse um issues
(19:29):
and things like that, and so itmight not be appropriate if
they're on a certain pathway andyou're waiting for certain
support.
However, we know that thosepathways often are two years of
waiting and if you're desperatefor support, I would always say
reach out, have a conversation.
You know, I think that we aregreat at saying when we don't
(19:53):
think this is going to behelpful.
We're not about trying to takemoney off people if we don't
think this is going to be theright support for you.
We're genuinely about peoplefirst and I think that trying to
find someone who will be reallyhonest and say I'm not sure
this is the right time for youto embark on this, and it's what
we pride ourselves on.
Um, but you know, equally,there are times where you know
(20:18):
that could really complementthat child if they're on a
waiting list and they need somesupport.
So I would say it's it's reallyindividual and sort of case by
case um, and if people are everunsure, just have a conversation
um, because we'll always tryand help, and if we can't help,
we will try and see if there isanyone else that could help.
Tamsin Caine (20:37):
Perfect that's brilliant.
And the big question becausethis is always the question when
anybody's thinking aboutinvolving other professionals
divorce and separation ismassively expensive.
There are lots and lots ofprofessionals who specialize in
doing brilliant work in divorceand and you could quite easily
(20:59):
have all of them if you hadenough money.
So and I guess a lot of peoplewhen they're going through
divorce, their focus is on thechildren and and divorce and
want to ensure that they comeout of it in as good a way as
(21:22):
possible and to be resilient andto be able to cope and not to
have any trauma impacted by thedivorce affecting their future
lives.
So I think it probably issomething lots of people want to
prioritise, but don't maybe askthe questions, don't think
about child therapy and for howlong the child is likely to need
(21:43):
.
Quite comprehensive therapywould be, would just be useful
(22:03):
so we start.
Helen Stuart (22:04):
So we've got our children and young people's uh,
therapists and they start startaround the 40 pounds an hour
mark.
So you know, we, we it can't befree, but also we don't want to
charge astronomical prices forit and we do various different
options.
So you know, we would alwayssay that a block of six sessions
(22:24):
is probably going really closeto star.
But if you book six sessionswith us, there are like various
different things we do.
So you know, if you block booksix, you can get one free
because we take one off for you,things like that, and we do run
various like differentdiscounts and stuff as well.
So I think I would say is that,absolutely understand that.
(22:46):
It's it and also it's not thedivorce.
You know, going through adivorce is one thing.
We also know that there's acost of living crisis at the
moment, like nothing.
It's really hard for lots ofpeople.
So, again, kind of reach out tous, have a conversation, and if
it's not something we can helpyou with, we can point you in
the direction of somebody else.
(23:06):
What I would say is that what'shard at the moment is that a
lot of the sort of third sectororganisations that do provide
free of charge counselling isthat they that really stretched
and that the waiting list forthose services are really high.
Um, but you know, we willabsolutely try and see if
there's anything we can do.
I think for me it's like at theheart of what I do.
(23:28):
So I have spent my entirecareer working with um children,
young people, adults that have,you know, facing a whole
different host of circumstances,and I have fought all my career
to try and get them the supportthat they need, you know.
Hence why now I'm running anorganization that puts the
profit back into those services,because my ideal world would be
(23:49):
to be that I am able to fundenough services back into the
charity to create moreaccessible services to people.
Um, so it's one of those whereI get it from absolutely both
sides.
So you know, if you're lookingfor someone that would
understand and you know, knowkind of, where you're coming
from, then you know I'm all.
I'm not the type of personthat's not kind of.
(24:09):
I'm always happy to kind ofhave a chat with people because
I think it's really importantand at a time where you're going
through so much like actuallyjust having a listening ear of
someone that will just be reallyhonest and say you know what
you can do this, this and thisor you know you can have this.
I think that's really importantand I'm always, you know, I
think at my core is wanting tohelp people.
That's what, that's what wantsto do, and and all of our
(24:30):
therapists that we have on theplatform, we're all doing what
we what we do because we want tohelp more people.
Um, and ultimately, you knowthat that is our why, of why
we're doing it
yeah, and that's incredible.
I mean, if I think about, youknow, that's six sessions that a
child could have with a childfocused therapist for the same
(24:51):
price as one hour of a of asolicitor's time.
That that's got to be, that'sgot to be worth its while.
You know the way you talk aboutit so passionately.
It's, it's absolutely amazing,um, fantastic work.
I've not spoken to anybodywho's been a child therapist yet
on the podcast and I've wantedto for quite some time.
(25:13):
So massively appreciate youcoming in to talk to us today.
Can you tell us where peoplecan look you up, how they can
get hold of your services?
We will put it in the shownotes, but but let us know right
now where, where they can findyou
so you can go to our website,which is www.
nowyourtalkingtherapy.
co.
uk.
(25:34):
we are also on facebook, we areon instagram, so if you prefer
to send a message via thosechannels, please feel free and
someone will get back to you.
Um, we've also got a um emailaddress on our website, so if
you do just want to arrange achat, you can do.
Or if you want to book a freeum call with one of our
therapists as an introductorycall, you just go onto our
(25:55):
website, choose who you want towork with and pop that in for
either yourself or your child oh, that's amazing.
Tamsin Caine (26:03):
Oh, just one quick question that I forgot to ask
the children I'm.
I have assumed throughout ourconversations that they're
coming to talk to a therapistone-on-one, so mum or dad might
wait in a waiting room, butthey're coming in directly with
the therapist.
Mum and dad aren't listeninginto what's being said and it
(26:23):
stays confidential with thetherapist.
Have I got that right?
Helen Stuart (26:27):
you absolutely have got that right.
Tamsin Caine (26:28):
Yes, that is right , yes, yeah, just wanted to
check in on that because I thinkthat's really important for any
age child that they know thatthey can, they can be open and
honest and that's, yeah, you fedback to their back to their
parents that this is all this isbetween them and the person
they're talking to, and they canhave confidence and that's a
(26:50):
real key element of it.
Helen Stuart (26:51):
That is a really safe space.
The only time that we wouldhave to ever break that
confidentiality which is thesame with adult therapy if that
they were at harm or they weregoing to harm somebody else, um,
but yeah, it is a really safeand confidential space and it's
not a place where they feed backto mum and dad and go oh, by
the way, they said this or that.
Tamsin Caine (27:08):
So yeah, absolutely right, amazing,
that's fantastic.
Thank you, Helen, so much, andthank you next, next time, where
we're going to talk abouttherapy for parents who are
going through divorce.
So thank you so much and I lookforward to speaking to you
again soon.
Helen Stuart (27:25):
Thanks so much.
Tamsin Caine (27:30):
Hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the
Smart Divorce Podcast.
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website www.
smartdivorce.
co.
uk.
Also, if you are listening onApple Podcasts or on Spotify and
(27:52):
you wouldn't mind leaving us alovely five-star review, that
would be fantastic.
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
facebook group now.
It's called separation, divorceand dissolution uk.
(28:15):
Please do go on to Facebook,search up the group and we'd be
delighted to have you join us.
The one thing I would say is doplease answer their membership
questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
Hello and welcome to today's episode of the Smart
Divorce Podcast, and if you'reon YouTube, you'll see that I
feel like I'm being eaten aliveby a triffid next to me because
I am in a Manchester officetoday, so I do look like
Crosstown, and between them in asauna and a greenhouse.
But I am very pleased to bejoined today by the lovely Helen
(00:31):
Stuart, who's come to talk tome today about therapy and her
practice, which is called NowYou're Talking.
Welcome, Helen, it's lovely tosee you.
Thank you so much.
Helen Stuart (00:44):
Thank you and
Tamsin Caine (00:45):
It's brilliant to have you join us today.
Do you want to tell us a bitabout how you started in therapy
and how Now You're Talking cameabout?
Helen Stuart (00:56):
Yeah, of course, my name's Helen Stuart.
I am the Managing Director ofNow You're Talking, so we
provide therapy for individuals,couples, children and young
people.
So we're here to make therapysafer, more accessible, more
simple and effectively morehuman, and what I mean by that
(01:18):
is that when I wanted to accesstherapy when I was younger, I
found it very confusing, wasn'tsure where it was that I needed
to go.
There are lots of places andpeople that say that they're a
(01:45):
counsellors who you know, youcan trust and you can book on
our platform, and it's all donesafely and securely on that
platform.
We also partner with businessesto help reduce absenteeism, to
tackle people that have been offwork for a long time and give
us some support around gettingback into the workplace.
(02:07):
And, lastly, but absolutely notleast, we are a profit with
purpose organization, whichmeans 66% of our profits that we
make are fed back into ourparent charity, which is TLC,
Talk, Listen Change, which isbased in Manchester.
Tamsin Caine (02:24):
Wow, amazing, amazing, so much that you've got
going on and we're going to doa series of these podcasts
talking about different aspectsof the therapy that you're doing
, about the different peoplethat you're you work with, and
it's all relating toco-parenting and to parents when
(02:48):
their children are goingthrough divorce.
So we're going to start offtoday, and today's focus is very
much going to be about children.
So lots of parents panic whenthey separate and they think
that it's going to have amassive impact on the children.
Is that something that you see?
Helen Stuart (03:09):
yeah.
So it really varies, and Ithink from a personal
perspective on this.
So my parents separated when Iwas nine years old, so I feel
very passionate about this interms of that support that we're
able to give children and youngpeople.
Obviously, when you are goingthrough a breakup and you go
(03:31):
through a separation, there isso much emotion going on for the
parents and it's very, verycomplex and I think that trying
to then adding the layer ofnavigating kind of the children
through that is a lot and Ithink that so my previous work
so I've did a lot of work aroundchildren, young people, who
(03:54):
were experiencing mental healthissues and these had stemmed
from lots of different problems.
But what we did see is thatwhen there had been a
relationship breakdown, whetherthat had resulted in a divorce
or separation, if that hadn'tbeen managed in a way where the
child felt safe to kind of talkabout how they were feeling, we
(04:14):
did see that manifest into otherissues.
And now children are quite, youknow, they can mask sort of how
they're feeling quite wellsometimes and it might come out
in different ways.
So you know, can mask um sort ofhow they're feeling quite well
sometimes and it might come outin different ways.
So you know it might be like oh, they're absolutely fine, I
don't feel like it has affectedthem.
Actually, you know theirbehavior in school's not great.
(04:35):
They've fallen out with loadsof friends at school.
You know it can kind ofmanifest in different ways.
So I think it's you know, and Ithink this is this, is it's
really hard and I think what myfirst and foremost thing is
actually going through a breakup, going through a divorce, is
really really difficult and it'sabout making sure that we are,
um, keep in touch with kind ofwhat's going on with the
(04:55):
children as well and not forgetthat they're involved in all of
this, which I absolutely knowthat people don't do.
But I think when there's lotsof other stuff going on, you can
quickly get that, can kind ofget swept into it all as well.
Tamsin Caine (05:06):
No, I think you're absolutely right there, and my
parents divorced when I was 12,so similar thing, and I'm a lot
older than you.
It was it was in a time whentherapy was something that
happened in America and it justwasn't like no normal people in
the UK just didn't go and gettherapy.
(05:27):
But I think it's a useful tooland and I think and could have,
could have massively helped.
Well, if, if we're talking toparents who who are going
through divorce or going througha relationship breakdown, what
should they be looking for interms of signs from their
children that they're not copingas well as we perhaps think?
(05:51):
So you mentioned behavior inschool.
Are there other things thatmight give, might give that away
, that they perhaps need someextra help?
Helen Stuart (06:00):
yeah, I think becoming very withdrawn I think
think there's kind of like themore obvious ones is obviously
becoming more withdrawn, and Ithink with children there is a
lot of internal blame that goeson when parents divorce and I
know myself that that issomething that I massively
(06:20):
internalised and, you know, evenat nine years old I was like,
well, this must be somethingthat I've done and I think if
that's not verbalized andvocalized, that can quickly
spiral um.
So I think it's from the offsetis being really quite open and
that can make, as a parent, canmake you feel really vulnerable
(06:41):
at an already really vulnerabletime because you're having to
say, you know, let's be openabout this, let's talk about it
and, as hard as that might feel,actually like it will hopefully
help in the long run that youkind of had those conversations
early on.
I think, again, where we are insociety, you have social media
(07:03):
and, depending on kind of theage of the of your children, um,
I don't think there is aperfect age to go through a
divorce in terms of children.
I think you know it happens atany age and everyone will be
affected differently.
I think kind of having an eye on, on what maybe might be playing
out on social media and thingslike that, because unfortunately
with social media, there is awhole host of information online
(07:26):
and if they feel like maybecan't get the answers from you
or they can't get thatinformation from you, they might
turn to other sources.
So it's kind of keeping an eyeon all of those aspects which is
really hard.
And I think I keep kind ofhoning on this point that when
you are going through this,absolutely there is so much
going on.
But if we can try and havereally open and honest
(07:48):
conversations right from thebeginning and kind of create a
safe space where children canfeel that they can talk about
kind of how they're feelingabout it, and that emotion or
how they're feeling might feelso uncomfortable for you, they
might feel angry about it, theymight be really sad about it,
and I think that when you'regoing through something, it's
really easy to kind ofinternalize that, take that blow
(08:10):
, all those kind of things.
But I think as much as you cankind of stay in a place where
you're like I'm just hearing andI'm just listening how they're
feeling, rather than having tosay I know, this is all my fault
, um, which is where therapy canreally help try and navigate
some of those feelings.
Tamsin Caine (08:28):
Yeah absolutely, and so if you've spotted some of
those things, some of the thebehaviors that that you've
suggested might be recognizable,so they've become very
withdrawn, misbehaving at school, trying to get your attention,
(08:48):
all those sorts of things thatare possible, how might you
introduce the possibility ofthem talking to somebody like
you?
How can they talk to theirchildren?
And is it age specific?
Would you have a a differentway of speaking to?
I mean, presumably you wouldyounger children as opposed to
(09:11):
young people .
Helen Stuart (09:13):
There's lots of different um modalities in terms
of different therapies that youcan have for different ages.
You know um for a child asyoung as five.
You know, for example, you'renot going to have the same
intervention for a child at theage of 12.
You, I think it's aboutintroducing the idea that they
can talk to somebody who's,because I think that we often
(09:36):
heavily rely on our supportnetwork in that circle of
support, which is great and weabsolutely should do.
But sometimes we need I don'treally like to call it like a
professional, I mean, they areprofessionals but somebody that
can kind of help navigate someof those emotions and flip it,
(09:58):
maybe help you see it from adifferent point of view, but
doesn't come from any particularside.
It's a neutral, isn't it?
It's a neutral third party.
That Absolutely.
And I think that, even as aparent, if you think you can
kind of, you know, youabsolutely know your child best
and you can talk to them, butsometimes they just need someone
.
That's not going to come fromany sort of position.
(10:21):
So, bringing that up inconversation, I'm quite hopeful
in terms of the direction we'regoing as a society, that
counselling and therapy isbecoming more normalised and I
would say definitely sort ofaround the pandemic, and the
young people that have gonethrough the pandemic are
probably more open to it thananybody else.
(10:41):
But I think it's about againdoing that process together, not
just saying to your childyou're going to see this person
and this is how, this is howit's going to be, you know,
talking, having a conversationand saying what do you think
about speaking to somebody?
Um, one of the things that wedo is that we have pictures of
(11:02):
all of our counselors and ourtherapists on our site, because
there is something about seeingan image of somebody and
thinking, okay, well, that's theperson I'm going to speak to.
And then what we also do is wearrange and we have like a 15
minute free call so you can havea conversation to see.
Because I'm a massive believerin you know I wouldn't choose
who you should work with or whoyour friends should be, because
(11:25):
you know yourself best.
So it's about trying to choosesomeone who you know you're
going to get the best from, andand when you look at kind of the
research, is that actually thattherapeutic journey is so
important, naturally, if youhave a really strong
relationship with your therapist, your counselor, and actually
you are more likely to engage,you are more likely to be able
(11:46):
to embark on that journey andreally take that seriously and
and make some changes.
If that's what you want to do,um, so definitely would do that
process together.
Children often feel like they'rehaving things done to them all
the time, um, and you know, whenyou're in the midst of going
through something as complex asdivorce, this could be another
extra layer of well, you're justtelling me to do this.
(12:08):
So I think involving them inthe process if they're old
enough to be able to go throughthat process with you and you
know, almost kind of empoweringthem that they can be the expert
in this and you're followingtheir lead and you're just kind
of trying to lead them and guidethem.
It is a hard space to be in,but I would say that that is
where we see the.
The most positive change iswhen children have felt like
(12:31):
they've been part of thatdecision
yeah, okay, I like that.
I know, imagine there's a kindof hard line.
But how does the therapy change, for it's a child as opposed to
a t..
?
I mean, let's start with withyounger children, so like
primary school age, I guess, andeven that is quite a broad
(12:52):
range, isn't it?
But so primary school age,perhaps younger primary school,
what?
What could they expect?
What?
Just how does therapy work forthem?
So a lot of the time it's through art therapy
and play therapy.
So it's about trying to workwith, you know, a young child to
(13:12):
express their emotions in a waythat feels quite safe.
We can't expect really youngchildren to be able to
articulate how exactly they'refeeling.
So doing this through drawings,doing this through play we had
a young girl a couple of yearsago from the charity work that
we did and she would always drawsuns.
(13:34):
She loved drawing suns but shealways would put, um, a sad face
in them and that was kind ofher way of trying to explain and
express that she was feelingreally sad, although kind of
things that I think.
I think how she was trying tosay is like things felt
sometimes it felt good, but shestill felt sad.
Now, a child's not going to beable to articulate that in words
(13:56):
, but being able to use that,you know, through drawing and
even through play as well.
You know, even I've got afour-year-old and you know when
he's sad and I'm trying to sayto him you know, what are you
feeling sad about?
Sometimes they're just soworked up and they can't tell
you and it's frustrating in theparents.
(14:16):
You're like I just want to knowwhat's wrong.
But yeah, I think it's aboutunderstanding that they'll have
a different way of communicatingthat and that's where a
counsellor or therapist canbring that really unique skill
set to be able to work with thatchild and help them kind of
work through some of thosecomplex emotions.
Tamsin Caine (14:33):
That's amazing.
It's brilliant to know thatthere is something available
even for little children, whocan't necessarily sit and tell
you what's wrong.
And then for older children,perhaps secondary school age
what does it start to look likefor them?
Helen Stuart (14:51):
so that is more um , really again led by the child,
but that would be more sort ofum take form and kind of talking
therapy, so having aconversation, um, but really
just trying to help the m unhit,kind of how they're feeling,
and you know a lot.
You know we talk all the timeabout teenagers and how angry
they are, and you know a lot.
You know we talk all the timeabout teenagers and how angry
(15:12):
they are and you know they'regoing, but actually that's just
them trying to express emotionin a way that feels safe to them
.
You know a lot of young boys.
The only emotion that feelskind of valid for a boy is anger
.
So that's why they'll act out inanger, because that feels like
the most accepted way to behave.
So it's about trying to workthat through.
(15:33):
So it's not.
It doesn't feel overly onerousin terms of tell me how you feel
and what you know.
I think that when you see umyou know counseling and therapy
and films and you know tvprograms it feels very direct
lie on the couch, tell me howyou're feeling.
And even when I went to study Idid my degree even I think I had
(15:56):
this like all on the prepre-concept of what it would be
like and it just actually justisn't like that.
Um, but it's very much aboutbeing client-led and you know,
working with that young personand I think as well is that it
takes time.
This isn't like you go for twosessions and your child all of a
sudden knows exactly how totalk and has got loads of coping
(16:21):
mechanisms all of a sudden.
It's not how it works.
It is a commitment that youhave to work through, but you do
see some massive differenceswith the children that we work
with.
Tamsin Caine (16:33):
I guess that's a good point.
So what outcomes are you hopingfor or expecting as a result of
of your children having?
Because the outcomes a parentmight be expecting might be
different to what you think isrealistic.
It's not a magic wand, but whatoutcomes would you expect that
(16:55):
child or person to have?
Helen Stuart (16:57):
yeah, it's really variable, I think, because
obviously it depends.
You know, if the child has comewith um, a very specific
traumatic situation, it might bekind of talking through that.
You know, if a child is dealingwith a separation or divorce
with their parents, it might bethat they have really strong
emotions, that they feel likethey blame one parent over the
(17:19):
other and actually the outcomeof that therapy would be to try
and unpick and understand wherethat was coming from, um, and
try and move them to a placewhere they could not, they might
still feel like that and wecan't change how somebody feels
about something but move them toa place where they could not,
they might still feel like thatand we can't change how somebody
feels about something, but movethem to a place where they can
talk through it.
Talk through it where they'renot getting really angry about
(17:40):
it or they're not sort of, youknow, acting out and things like
that.
But again, that is a process.
I think everybody's againparents' expectations of what
therapy will do is exactly whatyou've just said that it's a
magic wand, it's going to fixeverything, but ultimately it is
a process that people have togo through and it's someone that
(18:04):
can help you navigate youthrough some of the most
difficult times.
Or, on the flip side, you know,for me me, for example therapy
is more like a maintenance thingfor me, so I just go once a
month and it's just a chance tocheck in see how I am.
So there's a really broad waythat people can use it.
I think, the more we kind ofshift our perspective that
(18:27):
actually it's not necessarilyfor crisis point all the time.
So you actually this is anongoing thing that's going to
support me and all my childrenor whoever.
I think that's the shift thatwe need to try and make.
Tamsin Caine (18:40):
Yeah, it's a big shift, isn't it, from from where
we are now to I need therapy.
Well, why are you still havingtherapy?
But because I want to carry onfeeling.
Okay, yeah, and I think that'sa big shift, isn't it is there?
Are there any children or isthere any circumstance in which
(19:01):
therapy would not be appropriate?
Helen Stuart (19:04):
um, I think if you've got children who might be
, you know, have underlying umadditional needs or they might
be going through um, you know umdiagnosis, that you know.
We know there are well, I thinkprobably I'm not sure the figure
of like thousands of childrenthat are waiting lists, you know
, to be diagnosed for um, youknow um, neurodiverse um issues
(19:29):
and things like that, and so itmight not be appropriate if
they're on a certain pathway andyou're waiting for certain
support.
However, we know that thosepathways often are two years of
waiting and if you're desperatefor support, I would always say
reach out, have a conversation.
You know, I think that we aregreat at saying when we don't
(19:53):
think this is going to behelpful.
We're not about trying to takemoney off people if we don't
think this is going to be theright support for you.
We're genuinely about peoplefirst and I think that trying to
find someone who will be reallyhonest and say I'm not sure
this is the right time for youto embark on this, and it's what
we pride ourselves on.
Um, but you know, equally,there are times where you know
(20:18):
that could really complementthat child if they're on a
waiting list and they need somesupport.
So I would say it's it's reallyindividual and sort of case by
case um, and if people are everunsure, just have a conversation
um, because we'll always tryand help, and if we can't help,
we will try and see if there isanyone else that could help.
Tamsin Caine (20:37):
Perfect that's brilliant.
And the big question becausethis is always the question when
anybody's thinking aboutinvolving other professionals
divorce and separation ismassively expensive.
There are lots and lots ofprofessionals who specialize in
doing brilliant work in divorceand and you could quite easily
(20:59):
have all of them if you hadenough money.
So and I guess a lot of peoplewhen they're going through
divorce, their focus is on thechildren and and divorce and
want to ensure that they comeout of it in as good a way as
(21:22):
possible and to be resilient andto be able to cope and not to
have any trauma impacted by thedivorce affecting their future
lives.
So I think it probably issomething lots of people want to
prioritise, but don't maybe askthe questions, don't think
about child therapy and for howlong the child is likely to need
(21:43):
.
Quite comprehensive therapywould be, would just be useful
(22:03):
so we start.
Helen Stuart (22:04):
So we've got our children and young people's uh,
therapists and they start startaround the 40 pounds an hour
mark.
So you know, we, we it can't befree, but also we don't want to
charge astronomical prices forit and we do various different
options.
So you know, we would alwayssay that a block of six sessions
(22:24):
is probably going really closeto star.
But if you book six sessionswith us, there are like various
different things we do.
So you know, if you block booksix, you can get one free
because we take one off for you,things like that, and we do run
various like differentdiscounts and stuff as well.
So I think I would say is that,absolutely understand that.
(22:46):
It's it and also it's not thedivorce.
You know, going through adivorce is one thing.
We also know that there's acost of living crisis at the
moment, like nothing.
It's really hard for lots ofpeople.
So, again, kind of reach out tous, have a conversation, and if
it's not something we can helpyou with, we can point you in
the direction of somebody else.
(23:06):
What I would say is that what'shard at the moment is that a
lot of the sort of third sectororganisations that do provide
free of charge counselling isthat they that really stretched
and that the waiting list forthose services are really high.
Um, but you know, we willabsolutely try and see if
there's anything we can do.
I think for me it's like at theheart of what I do.
(23:28):
So I have spent my entirecareer working with um children,
young people, adults that have,you know, facing a whole
different host of circumstances,and I have fought all my career
to try and get them the supportthat they need, you know.
Hence why now I'm running anorganization that puts the
profit back into those services,because my ideal world would be
(23:49):
to be that I am able to fundenough services back into the
charity to create moreaccessible services to people.
Um, so it's one of those whereI get it from absolutely both
sides.
So you know, if you're lookingfor someone that would
understand and you know, knowkind of, where you're coming
from, then you know I'm all.
I'm not the type of personthat's not kind of.
(24:09):
I'm always happy to kind ofhave a chat with people because
I think it's really importantand at a time where you're going
through so much like actuallyjust having a listening ear of
someone that will just be reallyhonest and say you know what
you can do this, this and thisor you know you can have this.
I think that's really importantand I'm always, you know, I
think at my core is wanting tohelp people.
That's what, that's what wantsto do, and and all of our
(24:30):
therapists that we have on theplatform, we're all doing what
we what we do because we want tohelp more people.
Um, and ultimately, you knowthat that is our why, of why
we're doing it
yeah, and that's incredible.
I mean, if I think about, youknow, that's six sessions that a
child could have with a childfocused therapist for the same
(24:51):
price as one hour of a of asolicitor's time.
That that's got to be, that'sgot to be worth its while.
You know the way you talk aboutit so passionately.
It's, it's absolutely amazing,um, fantastic work.
I've not spoken to anybodywho's been a child therapist yet
on the podcast and I've wantedto for quite some time.
(25:13):
So massively appreciate youcoming in to talk to us today.
Can you tell us where peoplecan look you up, how they can
get hold of your services?
We will put it in the shownotes, but but let us know right
now where, where they can findyou
so you can go to our website,which is www.
nowyourtalkingtherapy.
co.
uk.
(25:34):
we are also on facebook, we areon instagram, so if you prefer
to send a message via thosechannels, please feel free and
someone will get back to you.
Um, we've also got a um emailaddress on our website, so if
you do just want to arrange achat, you can do.
Or if you want to book a freeum call with one of our
therapists as an introductorycall, you just go onto our
(25:55):
website, choose who you want towork with and pop that in for
either yourself or your child oh, that's amazing.
Tamsin Caine (26:03):
Oh, just one quick question that I forgot to ask
the children I'm.
I have assumed throughout ourconversations that they're
coming to talk to a therapistone-on-one, so mum or dad might
wait in a waiting room, butthey're coming in directly with
the therapist.
Mum and dad aren't listeninginto what's being said and it
(26:23):
stays confidential with thetherapist.
Have I got that right?
Helen Stuart (26:27):
you absolutely have got that right.
Tamsin Caine (26:28):
Yes, that is right , yes, yeah, just wanted to
check in on that because I thinkthat's really important for any
age child that they know thatthey can, they can be open and
honest and that's, yeah, you fedback to their back to their
parents that this is all this isbetween them and the person
they're talking to, and they canhave confidence and that's a
(26:50):
real key element of it.
Helen Stuart (26:51):
That is a really safe space.
The only time that we wouldhave to ever break that
confidentiality which is thesame with adult therapy if that
they were at harm or they weregoing to harm somebody else, um,
but yeah, it is a really safeand confidential space and it's
not a place where they feed backto mum and dad and go oh, by
the way, they said this or that.
Tamsin Caine (27:08):
So yeah, absolutely right, amazing,
that's fantastic.
Thank you, Helen, so much, andthank you next, next time, where
we're going to talk abouttherapy for parents who are
going through divorce.
So thank you so much and I lookforward to speaking to you
again soon.
Helen Stuart (27:25):
Thanks so much.
Tamsin Caine (27:30):
Hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the
Smart Divorce Podcast.
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website www.
smartdivorce.
co.
uk.
Also, if you are listening onApple Podcasts or on Spotify and
(27:52):
you wouldn't mind leaving us alovely five-star review, that
would be fantastic.
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
facebook group now.
It's called separation, divorceand dissolution uk.
(28:15):
Please do go on to Facebook,search up the group and we'd be
delighted to have you join us.
The one thing I would say is doplease answer their membership
questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
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