Episode Transcript
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Tamsin Caine (00:07):
Hello and welcome
to today's episode of the Smart
Divorce Podcast, and I'm reallydelighted to be joined by Dr
Supriya McKenna.
For those of you who haven'theard of this wonderful woman,
she is the UK's best-known voicein the field of narcissism and
is a former GP.
Her previous podcast episodewith us has overtaken the
(00:32):
episode that I did aboutfinances in our chart and she's
now second in our top 10 ofpodcast episodes in terms of
popularity, so this is certainlya subject that people want to
hear about.
Having co-authored the onlybook on narcissism for family
(00:53):
law professionals, she's trainedthousands of UK judges, lawyers
, mediators and social workersin narcissistic personality
disorder.
She also works directly withthose who've fallen victim to
narcissistic abuse in any areaof their lives, which includes
advising on strategy andcommunication.
Supriya produces and hosts thetop five podcast, narcissists in
(01:16):
Divorce the Narcissist Trap, soshe's very good on podcasts.
She knows exactly what she'sdoing.
Her resources include heronline courses that can be found
on her websites, which we willpop into the show notes for you,
and she regularly postsinsights on Instagram, linkedin
and Blue Sky.
A regular media commentator onthe subject of narcissism,
(01:37):
Supriya has contributed to andwritten numerous articles and is
an Amazon bestselling author onthe subject.
Her latest books are theNarcissist Trap and Narcissist
in Divorce series.
The co-parenting myth how toProtect your Children and Stamp
Out Post-Separation Abuse is herlatest book in the Narcissist
in Divorce series, which wasreleased last month.
(02:00):
And that is the reason I haveasked her to come and speak to
us today, because we're going tospeak about the issue of
co-parenting in divorce and theway I feel about co-parenting
and it's very similar to the wayI feel about amicable divorce
(02:21):
is that it's something that itfeels like if you don't manage
to do it in some way, you'refailing.
It feels a bit like the wholemyth around breastfeeding when
you're a new parent.
If your child can't and youhave to use a bottle, there's a
whole load of guilt and shameand failure thrown at you.
(02:43):
And hopefully our conversationtoday with Supriya will crash
some of those myths and explainwhy in certain circumstances
it's just not feasible orpossible.
So, Supriya, I'm absolutelydelighted to have you back on
(03:03):
the podcast.
Thank you so much for agreeingto come speak to us today.
Dr Supriya McKenna (03:07):
Thank you
very much for inviting me back.
I want to know who number oneis, by the way, in your top 10.
Tamsin Caine (03:14):
It's the first
ever episode that we recorded
and it's not very far in frontof you, and I have a feeling
you're going to take over fairlysoon.
Especially after this episodecomes out, I think people will
go back and listen to the otherone as well.
So let's start off.
Why is your latest book calledthe Co-Parenting Myth?
Dr Supriya McKenna (03:36):
Well, I
think you basically alluded to
that in your introduction, andyet you're absolutely right.
I mean, we are expected andshamed actually for not being
able to co-parent at times, andwith a narcissist it is
impossible.
You cannot co-parent with anarcissist.
And more than that.
It's not just that they won'tcooperate, they actually counter
(03:58):
parent.
So what that means is they dothe exact opposite of what the
other parent wants.
And there's very good reasonswhy they do the exact opposite
of what the other parent wants.
And there's very good reasonswhy they do that.
They actually use the childrenas weapons, as excuses, because
they want to get narcissisticsupply from their former partner
, because their former partnerwas previously their most
(04:18):
reliable source of narcissisticsupply.
And actually we do talk aboutnarcissistic supply on the
previous podcast episode, but Ithink we might need to just
quickly go through it again.
But you know, I just want peopleto know it's unreasonable, it's
an unreasonable expectation tothink that you should be able to
co-parent with a narcissist,because it puts the other parent
(04:39):
in a place where they're beingabused by the narcissistic
parent, and this ispost-separation abuse and it's
part of you know.
I mean there's alsopost-separation economic abuse.
There's all sorts of types ofpost-separation abuse, but using
the children as weapons is ahuge one, and it goes on until
the children grow up.
And the problem with this isthat if you are dragged back
(05:00):
into court, social workers willblame both parties equally,
judges will blame both partiesequally, that they're going to
suggest co-parenting courses andfamily therapy to work.
And I've heard social workerssay our job is with these middle
class parents.
They all sort of have a thinglike middle class parents for
some reason.
I'm not quite sure why, but ourjob is to knock these parents'
heads together and bang somesense into them so that they can
(05:22):
co-parent and they don'tunderstand that the problem is
an underlying personalitydisorder, and actually banging
two people's heads together isnot, as far as I'm aware anyway,
um, an effective treatment forcuring a personality disorder.
So you know.
.
.
I think you probably are
telling that
just a little work about.
You know, and there's thatwhole, it takes two to tango um
(05:43):
attitude.
So you know it, just, it's sounhelpful and and there's that
whole, it takes two to tango umattitude.
So you know it, just, it's sounhelpful and and there's a load
of shame attached to this.
I mean there's so much at themoment, co-parenting experts is,
you know, there's a whole,there are new books out, how to
you know um, they're sort ofalmost chastising the, the you
know people for not being ableto co-parent, going no, this is
how you have to do it.
(06:04):
And they never say at any point, as far as I'm aware anyway,
actually some of you just won'tbe able to do it and that's not
your fault because there arepeople you know, there are
people with whom you can'tco-parent.
It's really important thatpeople understand that.
You know their parenting rulesmight apply, but you know, if
your co-parent is a narcissistor co-parent is a narcissist,
(06:27):
you have to use those parentingrules in isolation.
You're not going to be doingthem with the narcissist and the
only model that works isparallel parenting and that's
really important and hopefullywe'll be talking about that just
briefly.
Later on as well.
Tamsin Caine (06:41):
Yeah, absolutely,
and you're absolutely spot on in
what you say.
You know, and whilst it takestwo to tango it, it is sometimes
nonsense.
Actually it takes twoco-parents to actually co-parent
.
And you know, certainly we hadum Marcia on a couple of weeks
(07:05):
ago on the podcast and she, tobe absolutely fair to her, is a
co-parenting expert and verymuch agreed with the situation
that you can, in isolation inyour box and doing what you can.
I think it'd be really usefuland I know we did do this on the
(07:36):
previous podcast but to talkabout what narcissistic
personality disorder actually isand therefore what narcissistic
supply is, and the reason beingis that narcissist is one of
those flipping words that allsorts of people have got their
hands on and is used notnecessarily in a correct way.
(08:00):
So could we, could you justgive us some some kind of
definition, some someunderstanding of what those
things actually are when theyexist in this sort of situation
that we're talking about?
Dr Supriya McKenna (08:15):
Yeah, so
when I'm talking about
narcissists or narcissism, I'mactually talking about something
called narcissistic personalitydisorder and that's a
diagnosable personality disorder.
So it's in the DSM, which is theDiagnostic and Statistical
Manual of Mental Disorders, soit is actually an actual
diagnosable disorder.
But most narcissists are nevergoing to get in front of a
(08:35):
psychologist or psychiatrist toactually ever be diagnosed.
Narcissists basically exhibit.
So we all have narcissistictraits, but personality
disorders are extrememanifestations of normal traits.
That's really important tounderstand and it's very easy to
kind of, when you're having anawful divorce or whatever, to
think, oh, my ex is a narcissist, um, because they're behaving
(08:58):
unreasonably, because they hadan affair, because they, you
know.
But a true narcissist behavesin very, very particular ways
and they do.
They don't just do some of thebad behaviours that I identify
in all my books the finances andthe children and more, and they
do pretty much all of them.
So it's really really extreme.
And narcissism, in a nutshell,is a condition of low empathy,
(09:19):
where the person has a sense ofentitlement and they exploit
other people for their ownbenefit.
They can't see people as beinga blend of good and bad.
So that's called a lack ofwhole object relation.
So you'll notice that you'veeither been on a pedestal or
just, you know, in the mud, heroto zero with your ex.
(09:41):
So when you leave your ex orwhen your relationship breaks
down, you're all bad.
Basically, you're now seen asall bad, whereas when they're
happy with you you're all good.
You're not a blend of good andbad traits, and so when you're
all bad, of course you deserveto be taken down.
And narcissists also have aneed to control and win, because
they need to feel powerful andspecial and because they've got
(10:04):
that low empathy, they can'tcare about how their behaviours
are making the other people feel.
So it's really important tounderstand that a narcissist,
although they might appear to bequite you know, Donald Trump
doesn't appear, for example, tohave low self-esteem, but
underneath it all, in fact, hedoes.
And so a narcissist, underneathit all, has low self-esteem.
What they do is they build afalse persona which they put out
(10:26):
to the outside world, whichacts as a shield, and they can
hide behind it.
But that false persona onlyexists in the presence of
external validation.
So they need other people tobelieve in their false persona
so that they can believe in itthemselves, because if they can
believe in it themselves, theydon't have to feel their true
feelings of shame andworthlessness and inadequacy.
(10:47):
So that's what I mean about itbeing a shield, but because it's
only strong if other peoplebelieve in it, it crumbles
basically if other people don't.
So what they need is this thingcalled narcissistic supply to
keep their false personas strong, to protect them from having to
feel their true feelings.
And they get this narcissisticsupply from, basically,
(11:09):
attention from other people,adoration, drama, conflict and
by instilling fear in others andalso, like I said, feeling in
control and winning.
Those things also give themnarcissistic supply.
Feeling and winning, and thosethings also give them
narcissistic supply.
And I always tell people that tothink about narcissistic supply
(11:29):
in a sort of metaphorical sense.
So if you imagine thatnarcissistic supply is stored in
a bucket with a hole in it,that narcissistic supply is
constantly draining away andloads of people are pouring
narcissistic supply into thatbucket, everyone the narcissist
knows.
So the spouse will be pouringat the fastest rate, the biggest
amounts.
The spouse is the biggestwatering can.
(11:50):
The children, the family, allsorts of the work colleagues,
the casual acquaintances, thefriends everybody's pouring in
smaller amounts or biggeramounts depending on who they
are, at different rates, butbasically, when the spouse goes
um, suddenly this big wateringcan that's pouring in supply at
the fastest rate and the mostmost of it, you know you can
(12:12):
imagine the levels in the bucketthey drop, and an narcissist
needs to keep those levels abovea certain level.
Um, in order, constantly, inorder for their shield to be
whole and strong, so that theirfalse personas they can protect
themselves.
So what happens in divorce isthey've lost their spouse and
they're not getting the supply.
The levels in the bucket drop,the false persona disintegrates.
(12:37):
Suddenly they're feeling theirshame, their worthlessness,
their inadequacy.
That's like an existentialcrisis to an narcissist.
They can't bear, bear it.
So what they do is they reactwith rage, and that, of course,
is a large part of why they'rebehaving in the way that they
are in narcissism, because, ofcourse, if you react with rage,
you're going to get attentionfrom the people who are around.
You're going to cause drama,conflict and fear as well.
(12:59):
You know those things are thesort of narcissistic supply.
You're going to get loads ofnarcissistic supply.
You're going to top your bucketright up again and feel better
about yourself.
So that's actually what it'sall about.
So they're using the children astools, as excuses or reasons to
actually get that supply fromtheir ex.
That's the whole point.
If you're tied to a narcissistby children, they're just going
(13:22):
to be used so that you can, youknow, so that they can get their
supply.
And they don't know this.
Of course they don't knowthere's a bucket with a hole in
it.
Obviously they know whatthey're doing, but they don't
know why.
And of course, also if their exleft them, which is usually the
case, I have to say, they'realso dealing with the injury of
that and the abandonment and howthat made them feel, and so
(13:45):
they actively want to punishtheir ex for that.
Um, they're never going to getover it and never going to get
over the fact that you left them, and they're always going to be
looking to find ways to punishtheir ex.
So, so, really, that's that'swhat it's all about.
that's why we have these issues
Tamsin Caine (13:59):
And from reading
your books and speaking to you
over the years.
There's a very specificplaybook that these people use.
We can see, we know whatthey're going to do.
We know how they're going toreact to things.
We know what to say to get themto behave in a certain way.
Everything and my clients whohave been married to somebody
(14:25):
with narcissistic personalitiessort of have although
undiagnosed, obviously have seenyou know they, I've said you
everything that she says in herbook happens over and over in my
(14:50):
relationship.
I can see.
You know, every word of whatshe said plays out, and this is
so.
This playbook means that wethen know how we can expect that
parent I'm not going to callthem a co-parent to behave
differently, um, when they'reparenting with the narcissist.
(15:11):
So so what things can we expect?
Dr Supriya McKenna (15:14):
yeah, so
it's.
I mean their behavior is goingto be abusive and because they
ramp up their abuse actually indivorce and separation and
post-separation.
So that's the first thing.
It's we're talking about abuseand I I divide this into
emotional abuse, financial abuseand legal abuse, and that's in
the context of trying to bringup the children.
They're going to be using thechildren as weapons of those
(15:36):
three types of abuse.
So say, on the emotional abusefront, they're going to try
constantly to.
They're going to use thechildren essentially as excuses
to have contact with their ex,because they need that
narcissistic supply from theirex, their most reliable source
that they know they can triggerinto giving them supply by
reacting in all sorts of ways.
So they need to try and see, um, their ex as much as possible,
(15:59):
um, so they'll do things likethey'll turn up to school events
when they never bothered beforeif their ex is there and
they'll turn up to parentsevenings, for example, if they
never bothered before, orthey'll they'll suddenly want
joint children's birthdayparties.
You know, you know, um fififisays that she wants us both to
be at her birthday party.
You know, really the narcissistwants to.
You know, it's this massive wayto get supply from everybody,
(16:23):
but also seeing the ex-spouseand being able to get supply
from the ex-spouse making theex-spouse feel really
uncomfortable Suddenly.
Hospital appointments, forexample, and GP appointments,
they'll want to be at everysingle one.
You know they might turn up toschool, and I had one.
He would turn up to school.
So if the mother in this casethe narcissist was a father, so
(16:44):
if the mother was picking up thechild it was one child he'd
never, ever.
I mean he never picked thechildren up, he'd never picked
the child ever, ever, ever.
But he would certainly turn upto her pickups and sort of pick
up the and he'd want to sort ofswing the daughter between the
two of them down the road backto um, back to um, the mother's
car, I mean, it's just, you know, and of course everybody on
(17:09):
looking on is thinking, oh,that's lovely, isn't it?
Because he he really cares,cares now they're separate just
wants to make sure thateverybody you know that they're
still friends and they can still, and it was, she was, I mean it
was awful for her, awful um,and she just had to try and grin
and bear it.
Um, so yeah, and so that was.
That's the kind of thing they doand, of course, everyone is
actually lording the narcissistfor this kind of you know being
(17:30):
terribly mature about this um,they'll want to drop off their
overnight bags directly to thespouse's house, for example,
rather than just doing, you know, the overnight bags through
school.
They'll want to have mediationabout every issue to do with the
children.
That aren't issues just to getthem in a room, you know.
So they've got their ex in aroom, um, and then they can
(17:50):
triangulate them with a mediatorand that's great, great way to
feel special and superior andbreak, you know, see their ex
break down, or you know, yeah, Imean, and these, of course, on
the surface, as I say, theselook like normal behaviors and
it makes the spouse actuallylook the non-narcissistic spouse
look like the unreasonable onethe power imbalance in in
mediation is enormous and quiteoften what I've seen and I'm not
(18:19):
knocking mediation at all, it'sjust not appropriate often in
these situations.
Tamsin Caine (18:24):
But what I've seen
is the narcissist be able to,
because of the way they are,because the personality that
they've built up, this shieldpersonality they're able to get
the mediator on their side andbecause the spouse is so
overpowered, has been treated sobadly for so long they can't
(18:50):
say what they want to say inmediation, they can't stand up
for themselves and what ends uphappening is that the spouse is
almost on one side and then themediator and the narcissist are
kind of on the other and itmakes it a million times worse
and that just feels.
I know.
You know mediators are notalways trained in this area but
(19:14):
really need to be so that theycan see what's happening in
front of them.
Dr Supriya McKenna (19:21):
Yeah, and
that exact same dynamic happens
in couples therapy as well,which is why it's just awful to
have couples therapy with anarcissist.
And that's, you know, the dramatriangle.
We heard of the Cartman's dramatriangle.
So there's a victim, it's great, there's's a victim, there's a
persecutor and a rescuer,essentially, and the narcissist
is obviously the narcissist isthe persecutor.
(19:41):
But what they can do is theycan check, they can spin the
positions, um, so if, if oneperson moves position in that
triangle, then everybody elsehas to move as well, or other
people have to move, because allthree positions need to be
filled.
So they are actually thepersecutor.
But what they do is they sidewith the mediator and they make
the um the true victim.
They basically they turn themediator into the persecutor
(20:03):
against the victim, um, and, andthen they become the rescuer,
and on it goes.
They just kind of spin thewheel.
So it's just horrific.
And they then turn, but whatthey're alleging is that
actually the victim is theperpetrator or the persecutor.
So the victim then becomes apersecutor, the mediator then
(20:27):
becomes the rescuer, and, and,and it's actually the narcissist
who's claiming to be the victim.
So you see, it's just so toxic,going round and round and round
and it's actually thenarcissist who's claiming to be
the victim.
So can you see, it's just sotoxic, going round and round and
round and you get nowhere.
You get absolutely nowhere.
Um, yeah, it's horrific,absolutely okay, I interrupted
you.
No, no, that's a really reallygood point.
A really really good point andreally important to say because,
(20:49):
yeah, you know there is a powerimbalance.
Um, that is what happens.
Do I'm going to go through thisin in my books and I go into it
in great detail in thenarcissist trap, explaining
exactly how this power, umdifferential develops over time
and exactly how, what they do.
But you know, harassment is ahuge one as well.
I was saying about you know thatthey will bombard their ex with
(21:10):
correspondence to do that.
The children, any excuse.
And I had one lady who her ex,he'd never been interested in
anything to do with the child's.
You know diet before.
But suddenly he was like, oh, Ineed to know what she had for
tea.
Um, you know with when she waswith you and what the school
meals were, so that I can makesure she has something different
, you know on when she's with me.
(21:31):
And it was just.
I mean, he just came.
I've never seen so manyoutrageous kind of um.
I mean he was bombarding herjust most outrageous reasons to
contact her and, of course, anyissues at school like special
educational needs.
I mean, wow, you're just askingfor um for contact there.
Um, you know they'll be tryingto.
You know, stop block umeducational assessments, or or
(21:52):
they'll be trying to stop blockeducational assessments or
they'll be trying to make surethey have them, or they'll be
making complaints about theschool or talking about the
reading record and trying to getchange.
I mean all sorts of things,change what they're doing in
terms of their schooling.
And another thing is they'll beharassing about contact times.
So you know they'll wantchanges.
(22:14):
You know why can't she see UncleHarry?
But he's only over for, youknow, three weeks and he hasn't
seen, you know, even though it'stheir time.
And you then feel you know theother party's time.
Then you feel guilty.
Oh my God, yes, that's true,maybe I should change the
schedule for this and then, onceyou've done that, that's it.
(22:39):
It's a free for all.
They will just carry onchanging the schedule and they
can even use apps like OurFamily Wizard as a weapon of
abuse, as a way to contact theirex and if they're really really
clever, so the ones who areactually really intelligent,
high IQ, they can do it wherethey just look really reasonable
on their messages, and so notanswering them, not giving them
supply, you know, if the personis not answering them, they look
(23:04):
like they're the one who's, youknow, refusing to co-parent,
and so that's important.
You know, in the main I dorecommend our Family Wizard, I
have to say, and at close, thesekind of parenting apps, but
with a super bright one, youknow, you have to be careful.
Tamsin Caine (23:13):
These kind of
parenting apps, but with a super
bright one.
Yeah, I spoke to our familywizard about this because I have
a client who was absolutelyabused through our family wizard
and the issue that she washaving was he would send reams
and reams of informationhundreds of sides of A4 in
(23:34):
information through our familywizard and if she didn't read it
all, she would miss the hiddenquestion that she needed to
respond to that was in the reamsof information.
So she was having to go throughhis nonsense to find the
(23:54):
reasonable question that wasasked that she needed to respond
to and I spoke to our familyminister about it and to be to
(24:18):
available to be changed, whereyou can at least get the
information, show it to a courtor send it to a court or
whatever.
They could use a differentsystem which would be alterable,
use a different system whichwould be alterable, so an email
system or a whatsapp system orwhatever.
So if they're going to gothrough this process of contact,
(24:39):
they're probably going to do itin some way and you're almost
better with having the timestamped and legally admissible
of our family wizard.
So yeah, just wanted to makethat point, just because it is a
situation I've seen and I havespoken to them about it and said
this is happening, just wantedto make you aware.
(25:00):
and they yeah, that was thepoint that they came back with
Dr Supriya McKenna (25:04):
they
actually contacted me because I
gave a talk and I said this whatI've just said you know similar
.
And and they said, um, you know, um, we want your slides
because you've been, you've beenbasically bad mouthing us,
which is not really.
I mean, as I say, I recommendit in the main it's just for the
very, very high, even fornarcissists, but in fact
particularly for narcissists,but it's just the extreme end.
You know the donald trump typeswhere you've got to be careful,
(25:26):
um, but um, I I sent um acouple of people to them, um,
because to tell them what issuesthey were having as a result of
that.
So at least you know, we had aconversation about it and I was
able to sort of send a couple ofpeople to them so that they
could explain.
You know the problems.
But it's very hard.
What can you do?
And there's not a lot you cando about that.
(25:47):
So I think if they're really,really clever, probably best not
to go on there because they'regoing to try and use it against
you.
It's really difficult, but inthe main, you know, um, most
narcissists are, can be heldaccountable.
I would say, um, on our familywizard.
So it's, it's a good thing, um,you know.
So I mean.
Another thing that they, um,that they do you were using the
(26:09):
children is they can use, theycan control, um, they, they can
use them to exert control.
So of course, they can badmouth the other parent to the
children, and they do that allthe time name calling, you know,
ridiculing them, claiming thatthey've taken all the money.
I mean all of that.
That's bog, standard behaviour.
You know people have on theirparenting plans.
Will we agree not to, you know,denigrate each other in front
(26:32):
of the children?
Wow, you know, you might justget rid of that clause, because
they're not going to, they aregoing to denigrate you, I mean,
they just are.
And that can go as far asparental alienation, where the
child actually believes it andthen starts not wanting to see
the other parent.
And that happens all the time.
And you know I do, I'm not.
You know these people say thetime.
(26:54):
And you know I do, I'm not.
You know these people say, oh,parental alienation, it's a
pseudoscience, you know, forget,you know it happens.
I mean, I don't care whetherit's, you know, forget about the
guy that you know made up theterm and whatever, forget all of
that.
You know, narcissists alienatethe children from the other
parent and they can do that toan extreme extent where the
children no longer wish to seethe other parent and that is
extremely difficult and that's awonderful way to exert control.
(27:16):
And also, you know, they'llwant to try and increase their
time with the children.
You know they often, theyusually want 50, 50, even when
they've had no interest before,and that's a great way to punish
their ex, so that they see themless.
And, of course, reduce childmaintenance maintenance because
you know, um, it's not payableif you're 50, 50, um, and
(27:37):
regardless actually of incomediscrepancies, which makes no
sense.
Um, that makes absolutely nosense and that's kind of part of
the financial abuse piece withthat um, they'll do things like
um, trying to gain favor withthe children, but by um, you
know, puppies, kittens, they'll,they'll buy puppies and kittens
to get the children by.
You know, puppies, kittens,they'll buy puppies and kittens
to get the children to want tospend more time with them,
(27:58):
bribing them, they'll stir upthings by not allowing the other
parent to travel with thechildren and they have all sorts
of excuses they won't returnthe children's passports on time
, or that.
I mean all sorts of things,things they'll object to travel,
um, they're going to make falseallegations, um, about the
other parent, to the policethat's.
(28:20):
I mean, it's really common tosocial services sexual abuse
allegations even, um, uh, theytriangulate, as I said before,
but they do this in a horrificway, long term, with they can
copy, they'll copy socialservices and the headmistress of
the school, the police, thejudge, the you name it, everyone
that's involved in the case,and they'll copy them all into
(28:43):
you know, ranting emails, um,making allegations, um, um, and
they do things like they makeschool applications as well, so
that you know the child.
That's a huge one, by the way,if you are, if you're, if you
split up with a narcissist,you've got to a point where the
school has to change, expectchaos, basically.
(29:04):
So there's going to be schoolapplications so that the child
goes to school which is reallyclose to them.
It doesn't matter what thechild actually needs, whether
that school is any good for them.
It just doesn't matter what thechild actually needs, whether
that school's any good for them.
It just doesn't matter, um, andI've already mentioned this,
the schedule, briefly.
But they, you know, they, theytry and put events in with the
children on your time.
Or, you know, extracurricularactivities, um, on your time.
(29:25):
So you've got to go to judowith felix, you know, even
though all of a sudden andprobably pay for half of it.
Um, I had one who organizedhelicopter rides, which I
thought was brilliant.
Helicopter rides at Christmas,it was like some Santa
helicopter ride thing on themother's time, you know, I mean,
(29:47):
it was really hard to say no tothat, really hard.
The children were dying to go,they were only little, but she,
she did actually say no, shemeant because it was on her time
, feeling terrible about it, andshe stood her ground, but all
sorts of things as well.
So, as I say, my, my, my familymembers are coming over, so
(30:09):
you've got to change theschedule.
They're going to frustratecontact with the children.
Boy, did we see that with covid?
Oh my god, you know, claimingthe children are ill, changing
plans at the last minute, justtrying to change the agreed
schedule all the time notreturning the children.
Um, I've had one person do thaton christmas day not return the
children, the mothers, you know, at the gates ringing and
(30:31):
ringing and ringing.
This a very posh person, sothey had electric gates ringing,
you know, and he wouldn't, hejust wouldn't answer, wouldn't
let her in, just wouldn't lether pick up the children on
Christmas Day, as per the order,the court order.
Tamsin Caine (30:44):
And of course, on
Christmas Day they know that
there's nothing can happenbecause lawyers can't be
contacted.
You know, everything is shutdown.
Dr Supriya McKenna (30:52):
They don't
do anything anyway on that.
Yeah, yeah.
And even if they could contactthe lawyers, they're still not
going to get the children backon Christmas.
Tamsin Caine (31:01):
Of course not, but
Christmas Day is the time to do
that, when nobody is availableto help them and to move that
forward, yeah,
and you can say how it's reallythoughtless of you to be, you
know, as they're interruptingthe day.
they, they really like theamazing presents.
I bought them.
They just wanted to play withthem.
They just wanted to play withthe electric car or that, you
(31:24):
know, whatever, the sort ofamazing thing that they, that
the person, had always wanted,the lavish gifts you know, um, I
mean, I've had them actuallyrefuse to open the door for the
other parents.
You know, like on normal dayswhen they come to collect the
children, obviously lateness,picking up and dropping off, you
can't do anything about that.
I've already mentioned, youknow well, actually, no, I
(31:44):
haven't mentioned this buttaking the children away.
So they'll collect the childrenfrom school early on certain
days perhaps when they're nottheir days to have the child and
the school can't do anythingabout that because they have
parental responsibility, sothey're, you know they can't
stop them from taking the childif it's not on a day which is in
the schedule.
I've also had a child actuallyit was nursery and a child was
(32:08):
actually the narcissist.
Again, a father in this casegrabbed the child from the
mother and ran off with thechild he was about three at the
time making a scene taking himback to his house, even though
there was a non-molestationorder in place with a power of
arrest on it, the police saidthey couldn't do anything about
it because it was to do withchild arrangements.
(32:28):
I can tell you now, three yearsdown the line, there have been
multiple breaches, um, of thatnon-molestation order, which has
been documented every singletime, and he is now being
charged.
So you know that that isimportant, um, to know that.
You know you've got to keep,you've just got to keep, keep on
(32:49):
the ball with it.
Yeah, yep, keep fighting.
I'm afraid, um, yes, it's goingto give them narcissistic
supply.
But keep fighting, you know,because you have to pick your
battles here.
Um, and another one that I hadoh, it was the same guy actually
, he would call that.
He turned up to the, themother's house, and call the
child through the letterbox ontimes which went, oh, come and
see me.
You know, daddy misses you.
(33:09):
Um, oh, please come and see me.
I mean, oh, you know horrific,you know so, yeah, and then of
course, there's fine.
So that's all emotional abuse.
There's more.
I mean, I go through it all indetail in in the book, obviously
, but, um, financial abuse.
The children are great weaponsof financial abuse.
They can stop paying for theireducation, for their
extracurricular activities.
(33:30):
They can refuse to contributeto school trips, the dentist,
tuition, extra tuition, you know.
Musical instruments, learning,disability assessments you know
that's another huge one.
I mean they can take moneydirectly from the child.
I had an narcissist accuse thechild of breaking something,
(33:52):
something minor, I mean, in inthe house and saying you will
need to bring me your piggybackbank, um, so that I can take the
um, the money from it next timeyou, you come here and he wrote
a message to the mother sayingthe same thing and that the
money in that piggy bank wasmoney that he was getting from
his maternal family.
So it was just, you know, giftsevery time the grandparents or
(34:15):
uncles and aunts.
So it really he was trying totake that Unbelievable.
Of course they refused tocontribute to university costs.
They will do things likedestroy school uniform or refuse
to return it.
They'll say it's disgusting.
Those shoes are a disgrace.
How could you put Felix inthese shoes to go to school?
You know I've put them in thebin and and and he's going to
(34:36):
come home in in slippers orwithout shoes and you know need
to get some new shoes for him.
Literally his school shoes havegone.
All you know.
The jumpers we had, the.
How horror, awful to send himinto school with frayed sleeves
on his jumpers.
They weren't frayed, they werebrand, brand new.
She could prove it.
You know, stuck in the bin, notreplaced, she had to buy them
(34:57):
again.
You know, same thing with toys.
They might take toys over.
So again, there's this thing.
We agree that you know toys canmove freely between the homes.
Okay, on your parenting plan,not a great idea, I mean I think
the teddy bear you know theysleep with but otherwise you
know not everything else.
You know they're going to haveto duplicate that stuff.
(35:20):
They'll do things like they'llmake sure the child, if they're
on holiday with the child,they'll make sure the child
loses things.
You know doesn't pack clothes,expensive things, trainers.
You know I've had iPads lost onholiday, charges for laptops,
all sorts of things and they'vejust pitched up without this
(35:41):
stuff and the non-narcissisticparent has just had to.
Just they've refused toreimburse them, so they just had
to just stump up the new stuff.
And of course I've alreadymentioned the school issue.
But it's huge and a weapon offinancial abuse as well.
So I've had people apply,without telling the other parent
, for the child to go to privateschool, boarding school,
(36:04):
theatre school even though thechild wasn't particularly
theatrical.
And boarding school and theatreschool, of course that's, you
know, that's boarding, so thatthey're not even at home.
It reduces their time with theother parent to punish the other
parent and they've tried to getthe other parent to pay half or
for all of it if the otherparent has more money and
(36:25):
they've taken the standard forthem to take the child to see a
new school.
You know the boarding schoolwith 200 acres and the
equestrian facilities.
You know when they're at anormal state school, and of
course they're going to go oh myGod, yeah, you know, I really
do want to go to this school andthen they try and get the other
parent to pay half or whateverit's just awful and they'll
(36:45):
enlist the children to takethings from your house as well.
So be, you know why can't I?
You know that Hoover is mine.
You know those that you knowthey'll.
Just, I mean that.
You know the, I don't knowwhatever, the, the, the bread
makers, mine, you know, bring it.
You know you need to bring thatwith you when you, when you
come back from mummies, you know, or daddies, so that kind of
(37:07):
thing, and it is abusive.
I mean, there's just no, no,two ways about it.
And then the worst thing of all,almost, though, is legal abuse,
because you think that thelegal system is there to protect
you, and the legal system willdevelop, you know, will give you
justice and fairness anddeliver retribution.
It does none of those things,and I'm really sorry, but you
(37:32):
know the family justice system.
That is a misnomer, it's anoxymoron.
It literally makes no senseFamily justice system.
That word justice should not bein there, because I rarely see
justice, I have to tell you, andof course I only deal with
narcissists, so I have a veryskewed view.
(37:54):
So perhaps there's justice inother areas, but you know it's
this type of situation where thelegal system actually is needed
the most, you know.
And yet it's not fit for purposeand that really annoys me.
And you know you can see whyI'm not a big favourite with
many lawyers and you know youcan see why I'm not a big
favourite with many lawyersbecause of this view.
(38:15):
But I need to warn people,because they go into this
thinking that they're going tobe saved and that you know
everything's going to be OKbecause their lawyers and the
judges are going to do the rightthing.
So they're going to be draggedin.
(38:36):
I've already said they're goingto be dragged into mediation
repeatedly, but that's going tobe a thing.
And because now the expectationis that you have to try
out-of-court dispute resolutionmethods before going into the
court system, they can use thatagainst.
Well, we offered mediation, weoffered arbitration, but she
said no or he said no, it's notgoing to work, it's going to be
toxic and it's just another wayof a drawing you back into
spending money and b you know,legally abusing.
(38:57):
You see it's financial abuse,legal abuse and emotional abuse
in one hit there
yeah, I've seen it
used to to create delays and
more financial spending as well.
So so, oh, yes, absolutely weshould go to mediation.
We should use um, anout-of-court dispute resolution,
and please don't get me wrong,I am all for non-court dispute
(39:20):
resolution for the right people,which is lots of people, it's
most people, samson it's mostpeople.
Where there is a narcissist,they're just using it to cause
delays, to create narcissisticsupply and to get the other, the
(39:40):
spouse, to spend more money.
And it's unbelievable how longit can it can be.
It can go on, and on, and on,and on, and um, nobody says
actually we're not makingprogress.
Dr Supriya McKenna (39:56):
We should
stop this yeah, I mean it's just
appalling because you know thecourt take all their court
applications seriously.
I've had um, you know that.
So there's the different typesof the prohibitive steps orders,
um, where they I had one, wherethat you know they can can make
false allegations, for exampleabout your family members, to
try to stop the children fromseeing them.
And a classic one that I hadwas racism.
(40:18):
They said, oh, you know thegrandfather's racist, you know,
because he voted for Brexit.
You know that was not thegrounds upon which this was a
mixed race child, you know, andthis was heard by the court and
this poor grandfather's draggedinto court.
I mean it's just awful.
They can try to stop them fromreceiving treatment, and I keep
(40:38):
mentioning special educationalneeds, but you know this is a
huge one.
So, adhd medication they willtry to stop that or not allow it
from from from even starting,or not allow assessments.
They can make these prohibitivesteps to stop these things from
happening.
They won't give permission forvaccinations, for example, as
well, because they're very oftenconspiracy theorists.
Specific issue applications.
(41:00):
So I've already mentioned theschool things.
Well, they'll make applicationssaying well, you know,
so-and-so needs to go to thisschool and I'm making an
application to the court becausemy ex won't agree.
Holidays is another one.
I had one client whose ex wantedto take the child who'd been
newly diagnosed with a juvenilearthritis condition very serious
(41:27):
to a third world country whichdidn't have any of the right
kind of you know, and it wasvery good they couldn't have
treated it.
And there are these awful flareups where you have to be
hospitalized and it was earlydiagnosis so nobody knew how it
was going to progress.
But he insisted upon taking themother to court about that.
(41:50):
You know, just to waste moneyand create chaos and drama.
And you know, if you go onholiday as well, you can.
I mean they might even make achild abduction claim.
You know, against you If you goabroad, to a Hague Convention
country.
You know, I didn't know aboutthis.
This is, this is this isabduction.
(42:13):
They need to be returnedimmediately.
And of course, all the falseallegations they can make
through the court against you,so through the C1A form physical
(42:37):
abuse, sexual abuse, emotionalabuse, psychological abuse you
know just all of them.
And abuse towards the childrenchildren as well, they can
allege.
So there's all of those.
They're just vexatious.
And then of course, they cankeep taking you back to court
with the child arrangements umas well.
So together to have childarrangement orders varied,
changed, there is.
I mean, I've had god, I've hadpeople who've had, I know got
one client at the moment and Iknow she's at the 16th hearing.
We finally got to the final setof proceedings now, but again,
it's been a three-year nightmareand they are applying for a
(43:02):
barring order.
So a barring order.
So this is important to knowthat barring orders can be made
if you apply for them to stopthe other party.
But usually both parties arebarred from from making any
application to the family courtfor whatever two or three years,
whatever it is.
But they can still makeapplications.
They need the court to givethem permission first before
(43:25):
they make these applications.
And I once had a gosh.
I had a.
This is a six year post-divorce, maybe seven years actually
post-divorce.
So the divorce was made finalseven years ago.
The narcissistic wife ex-wifein this case kept taking the
narcissist back to court and soa barring order was made.
Yippee, everyone celebrated,you know, clinking of champagne
(43:49):
glasses.
Then she appealed the barringorder.
So, she took him to a court toappeal the barring order.
That was heard.
The court went oh okay, webetter listen to this then.
So he allowed another hearingto appeal the barring order.
That was overthrown.
Everybody went, yay, brilliant.
So she went to the High Courtto appeal the barring order
(44:10):
again.
To appeal the appeal Again,they went to the High Court.
Can you imagine how much this iscosting the non-narcissistic
partner, the husband?
Just a nightmare, a nightmare.
And he didn't get costs back.
By the way, they should havesaid no, here you go.
You know this is ridiculous,you should get some costs.
He didn't.
But again.
(44:30):
Then they had a whole hearingand the High Court then again
dismissed her appeal and thebarring order stood.
So then she made an applicationto the Supreme Court and at
Supreme Court level they went no, we're not going to hear this,
but it had.
I mean that.
I mean that's what they're like.
That's what a narcissist islike.
They're not just a bit mean ora bit selfish or a bit vain.
(44:50):
This is what a narcissist islike.
They're not just a bit mean ora bit selfish or a bit vain.
Tamsin Caine (44:52):
This is what a
narcissist is like yeah, and
what you've described is notunusual.
You know I similarly.
I have a client whose case is Ithink she's on 12th or 13th
court hearing.
They had barring orders.
As soon as the barring'sfinished, they're back in court
(45:14):
again.
You know it's just utterlyridiculous.
So you know what you describeis, as we said before, it's
playbook.
You know this is standardbehavior.
I've never experienced anyonegoing to the Supreme Court.
But generally, keeping thecourt process rolling, keeping
(45:35):
the narcissistic supply, iscommonplace.
Dr Supriya McKenna (45:38):
Yeah, and
you can see why this mentality
it takes two to tango is sowrong.
Tamsin Caine (45:44):
Absolutely In
these circumstances.
You know very often it does,but you know these are
particular behaviors that we'retalking about that are
associated with a particularpersonality disorder.
So so let's try and spin it alittle bit and try and try and
get to some positivity.
(46:05):
What advice can you give topeople who are um, who have
children with a narcissist andthey need to try to minimize the
behaviors that they experience?
Dr Supriya McKenna (46:18):
Okay, so
really important to reduce the
narcissistic supply that yougive the narcissist.
So, if I mean because we'vetalked about the bucket with the
hole in it narcissists neednarcissistic supply like they
need it.
They can't function or livewithout it, so it's like a drug
that they constantly need.
(46:38):
It's like being a heroin addictand needing constant heroin.
You know they need theirnarcissistic supply constantly,
and so what I want people tokind of realise here is that
they are almost addicted tonarcissistic supply and you are
their drug dealer.
You are the person they expectto get their narcissistic supply
from, because people alwaysfeel really powerless in these
(47:00):
situations.
But you know, it's reallyimportant to look at this and
think well, hang on a minute, ifthey're the addict and you're
the drug dealer, who hasactually got the power in this
situation?
And it's obvious, it's actuallythe drug dealer, it's you.
It's you the victim.
You know it's so important tounderstand that.
You know that's what they wantyou for.
(47:22):
They want you for yournarcissistic supply and you
don't have to give it to them.
I mean, I'm reminded of annarcissist who said to his
ex-wife or his wife at the timewhen she said right, you know,
I'm going to petition fordivorce.
He said I'm going to tell youthis, I'm never going to let you
be a speck in my rear viewmirror and I've quoted that in
some of my books because I justthink that says it all.
(47:44):
You know, that says it all.
And he was true to his word.
Let me tell you.
But we managed, by reducing thenarcissistic supply that she
gave him, to actually largelyget rid of him.
And we had the schoolapplications and all of these.
We had loads of things, but youknow, she was able, over time,
to really manage him.
So, basically, the point being,if you are consistently able to
(48:08):
reduce the supply that you givethem over time, they're going
to have to go and get it fromsomeone else at some point.
That's the's the thing.
But unfortunately it does takea bit of acting ability.
So you know how you communicatewith them is key.
Um and I mean I, I go into thisin real detail um in in um my
book, um of the second in thenarcissism divorce series,
(48:30):
that's the from leaving toliberty, the truth, the whole
truth and nothing but the truth,which is like a tome, which has
everything in it that you couldpossibly need, including the
whole parenting thing, but um,so, um, yes, I mean I go into
communication strategies withexamples in great depth, um.
But firstly, you know, you, whatyour aim is to never see them
(48:50):
in person again.
If you can possibly never seethem in person again, you know
that's really important.
And secondly, if you do havenever see them in person again,
you know that's really important.
And secondly, if you do have tosee them, you have to show no
fear.
So that's the acting abilitybit, because you will be feeling
fear.
So never have video calls withthem or phone calls, because if
you do, they will be able togauge your emotional reaction
from your voice.
(49:11):
You know the slightly shakyvoice on the phone or the micro
movements on your face.
You know on a video call andthey're going to get a supply
from that and it will give themclues as to how to kind of draw
you into a row.
If you do have to see them inperson, get out of there as soon
as you can.
Again, if you do have to seethem in person like I don't know
whatever, a school thing or youknow, concert or play or
(49:34):
whatever use the grey rocktechnique.
I've got a podcast episode onthat.
So that might be worthlistening to.
I mean, it's Narcissist inDivorce.
The Narcissist Trap is thepodcast, but and again I go into
it in the books as well.
But the grey rock techniqueamazing, the grey rock technique
.
I mean it sounds nuts, but it'samazing.
(49:54):
Basically, just in a nutshell,you don't make eye contact with
them.
When you talk to them, you usethe fewest words you can.
You have absolutely noexpression on your face.
I always say you need to turninto Mr Spock from Star Trek.
You know he was half,completely wooden.
Everybody said he was aterrible actor.
But he's probably a really goodactor, but acting wooden, but I
(50:15):
don't know.
So no expression at all, show,no fear, no raised eyebrows, no,
nothing, just nothing.
And get out of there as quicklyas possible.
And of course you then haven'tgiven them any supply.
Um.
Use only one platform tocommunicate with them on.
Um.
I I would say email if youcan't.
I mean our family wizard, ifthey're kind of.
(50:37):
You know, not massively highspectrum, but email is good, but
they can, they can alter emails.
It's very easy to do if you.
I mean I had a case wherebasically all they did was they.
They would respond to the thethat the non-narcissistic person
had sent.
But then you can just, you canjust edit that reply that you
(51:00):
know the email that's not onyour response, so it looks like
the chain.
You can just edit the chain, um, so that's what they were
providing to the court andthankfully, this um it was again
, it was a male narcissist inthis, this instance but, um, the
female um, the mother, thenon-narcissistic person, had
been screenshotting the emailsand she'd been forwarding them,
(51:23):
that's right, forwarding them toher lawyer as soon as she got
them, so they could see wherethey'd been changed, but they
only.
It took a long time to get tothat stage of realising that
that had even happened, but theycould see where, where he'd
altered them, and so that was,you know, that was presented to
the court.
So that's the danger with email.
(51:43):
So be aware of that.
But it does mean that you can'tgive an instant response,
because we don't want texting,we don't want any of that,
because you might be tempted togive them an instant response
and then they'll draw you intoan argument and then you know,
know, you've given them supply,um, so you know, as I've
mentioned already, our familywizard or app close um, if
(52:04):
they're not particularly clever?
Um, because why they work isbecause you don't have to.
Actually, I describe them asbeing like, um, a corridor with
two doors at the end and anotice board in the middle.
So basically you're behind onedoor, they're behind the other
door.
I mean you can't be both in,can't both be in the corridor at
the same time, because yourdoors are locked at various
times.
So they can walk in, pinsomething to the notice board,
go back, shut their door, youcan come out, read it, pin
(52:26):
something so it keeps you apart,basically.
So things like schedules andarranging swaps, which you
should never do anyway on aschedule, but you can do that.
There are buttons to do thatand there are requests and there
are files that you can upload.
So you can upload thechildren's shoe sizes, for
example, or whatever, withoutall medical reports or school
reports, without actually havingto go dear.
(52:47):
So and so here are the schoolreports, so you know you don't
have to have that contact.
So it's, it's really useful, um, in that way.
Um, also important.
Important is learning how torespond to their written
communications, because theirwritten communications are
bonkers.
I mean, and again, I go throughin detail their written
communications Everyone willhave experienced this because
(53:10):
they're ranting, they'reaccusatory, they descend into
word salad, where they make nosense.
They use pseudologic where theymake no sense.
They use pseudo logic wherethey kind of logicalize things
in a kind of completely falseway.
So you know a plus b very.
You know one plus twodefinitely doesn't um equal
three.
You know, it's just allnonsensical um to a degree and
it leaves you reeling.
(53:30):
So, um, learning how to dealwith those is really important.
And the first step, um, I thinkthis works really well is to
copy and paste their messageinto a five-year-old handwriting
font.
And there's one called Tommywhich I use and that immediately
you go oh, oh, I see, when youread it again in this kind of in
(53:52):
this font, because it's a childstamping their feet and having
a tantrum and making no sense,and so those ranting accusatory
threats, you know that you'regetting make much more sense in
the context of that um, and youknow, only respond to what you
absolutely need to um, and itjust it would.
So it's just the logistics forthe children, that's all you're
(54:13):
responding to.
So don't jade right, don'tjustify, don't argue, don't
defend yourself, don't explain,even if other people are reading
me, but you've got to tell himthat no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
no, no, don't do it.
Don't do it.
Do it if you have to becauseyou're in court proceedings, but
only to the level that you haveto for court proceedings.
Otherwise, know, just, um, justdon't engage with any of that
(54:36):
nonsense.
And you know you can.
If you can find something toagree with and do so.
You know, you know we areagreed that the children deserve
better, or the children deserveyou know, you know they are.
We are agreed that the childrenare great or whatever it is
that the narcissist has put inin in their, their email.
Find if you can find somethingto agree with, no matter how
(54:56):
banal and meaningless it is,that the narcissist has put in
in their email.
Find if you can find somethingto agree with, no matter how
banal and meaningless it is,then agree and use collaborative
pronouns as well, because thatcan kind of sometimes with a
lower spectrum narcissist, thatcan kind of just smooth things
over a bit.
So we I mean use we and us.
You know we are agreed thatpickup will be at four.
You know that kind of thing Usethe fewest number of words A
(55:24):
lot of people have heard of theBIF technique brief, informative
, firm and friendly.
Take that friendly out, throwthat in the bin, don't be
unfriendly.
But with a narcissist you don'tneed to be friendly unless
you're in court proceedings, andthen you might want to just
warm up the tone of I'm notsaying be unfriendly, I'm saying
just be very matter of fact.
You don't need to go hi, howare you?
Thank you for your email,smiley face, none of that.
And and if you're in courtproceedings, though, and these
(55:47):
communications are going to beshown, just warm up the tone
slightly.
You might want to put a smileyface emoji or you know whatever.
Um, just be a bit more.
You know a bit warmer, um, butyeah, I mean that that's, that's
important, it's reallyimportant, and before you send
anything, you might want to geta friend to check it and uh, or
you might want to wait a fewhours before you send it and
(56:08):
make sure you take out any heatfrom your communications, any
anger, any fear, any outrage.
A great tip, actually, thatpeople are doing now is they're
putting their messages throughum, uh, into ai, into chat, gpt,
and saying could you make thisa gray rock, you know, and so
that's quite useful as well.
So, you know, I recommend doingthat.
(56:29):
Um, when you are responding,make absolutely sure you use no
emotions.
I wish that lawyers would dothis as well, actually, in their
responses to the other side,because they do things like.
You know, my client is outragedat blah, blah blah.
My client is saddened that yourclient is blah, blah blah.
My client is disappointed thatblah, blah, blah.
You know that's an emotionthat's giving the narcissist
(56:52):
narcissistic supply.
You put that in a message.
Even my client is disappointedand that means that they're
going to go oh good, right,that's, that's what I was aiming
for.
I'll do some more of that then.
You know that is not.
You know the way to respond toa narcissist.
So remove all emotions from it.
Um, and yeah, I mean it wouldbe great if lauren has
understood that as well.
(57:13):
And the other thing is, you knowit's really easy when you get
because you will get they willsend you the occasional
reasonable sounding message andyou will think, oh, oh, maybe
they've, you know, got over this.
You know nightmare of being,you know not wanting to
co-parent, you know, or theymight appeal to your empathy.
That's the other way they'lldraw you in.
They just want to draw you in,get your attention, and then
(57:38):
they'll start.
Basically, it will alldegenerate very quickly into a
horrible mess, you know, and ifyou're writing, if you're when
you're writing about, rememberyou're writing for a judge.
You are writing for a judge, um.
So whatever you do, make surethat your communications don't
make you look bad in court.
That's so important, um, soimportant because they will,
even if you don't end up incourt and you probably will, to
(58:00):
be honest, if you're dealingwith an artist, but if you don't
, you know, just just, you justneed always behave as if you
think you're going to end up incourt.
And the other thing is, youknow, pick your battles.
They want a reaction from youand you, unfortunately, you may
have to accept, you will have toaccept some very unfair
behaviors from them, but youjust have to look at what
actually matters and don't letmale meaning friends and family
(58:23):
members, you know, change yourview on that, because they are
unlikely to understandnarcissism to the degree that
you do.
So remember this.
This is a great metaphor from um, from dr romany.
She just you're familiar withdr romany.
She's um in the us, it's abritish, she's got millions of
yeah, she's great millions ofyoutube videos, amazing.
So I always refer people tothose um.
(58:43):
So she describes it as themwanting it being like a tennis
match and then wanting a volley.
Basically, um, you know, andyou've got to stop that volley.
So she says, you know, put downyour racket and walk off the
course.
And I would further add to thatand then brick up the entrance
to the test course.
You know you've just got to getout of there and not go back,
(59:05):
basically Because if you aredrawn into a battle, you've
basically gone back to squareone, so you've given them that
supply.
So really those are my, my tipsfor communication and, of
course, parallel parenting thatI mean.
Um, it's really important tounderstand that the only
parenting model that works witha narcissist is parallel
parenting.
Um, and I go into that in indetail in the um, in the
(59:28):
co-parenting myth in in thatbook.
Tamsin Caine (59:31):
yeah, absolutely
so.
You, we've given some tips,we've had some ideas, we've got
some advice.
We know what to expect now, andI think I think perhaps you've
covered this a little but howeffective is the family court in
dealing with these cases?
(59:52):
I'm getting the feeling, fromfrom what you've said previously
, that the answer is probablynot very.
We talked about family justicenot really being justice in
these circumstances, um, buthave you got anything that you
want to add on that?
Dr Supriya McKenna (01:00:07):
yeah, I mean
it's not.
It's not effective.
It will.
You'll be roped intoproceedings for years, um,
you'll be up on the witnessstand, treated like you're some
kind of criminal, when allyou're trying to do is the best
for your children.
Um, your parenting will becalled into question by social
workers.
You know you'll be, you will be.
It's a very abusive system when, um, because, because it
(01:00:29):
becomes a weapon of thenarcissist abuse.
Basically, so it's noteffective at dealing with cases
like this.
But three years on, eventually,often we do see some justice,
but by that time, you know theperson can be broken and you
know all of this takes its tolland you haven't been a great
(01:00:50):
parent in the meantime.
You haven't been able to,because you're, you know,
terrified and you've probablygot complex PTSD as a result of
the three years you spent, youknow, in proceedings.
So my advice to everybody,everybody, is, when it comes to
the children's side of things,please try to stay out of court.
Please try to stay out of court.
Don't rush into courtproceedings thinking that the
(01:01:14):
court's going to see who theproblem is and deliver an
outcome which protects thechildren, because, as I've said
before, it's not fit for purposeand you are going to have
well-meaning friends or familytalking about justice and
getting justice.
And I remember one personsaying to me I'm going to fight
this all the way and I was justlike please don't, please don't
(01:01:38):
fight this all the way throughthe courts because you know, in
terms of the children, becauseit's really not a good idea.
Um, but he was adamant and thewas a female in that case and um
, yeah it.
I mean, yes, he won in in thathe got 50-50, but a total mess
(01:01:58):
at the end of it.
You know.
And also you know childarrangement orders aren't really
enforceable anyway.
You know we've already talkedabout, you know the child taken
from the nursery, pulled out ofthe mother's.
You know the police don't doanything about it.
If the narcissist is latepicking them up or picks them up
when they shouldn't, you knowthe police don't get involved.
(01:02:19):
It's child arrangements, it'snot criminal, it's child
arrangements.
That's for the family court.
That's what they will say.
And you know you get a childarrangement sort of, and it says
in bold you know, if you don'tcomply with this you might be
sent to prison.
They never send anyone toprison, ever, and narcissists
seem to instinctively know this.
They don't send people.
The family court does not sendparents to prison, because it's
(01:02:43):
not in the best interest of thechild to have a parent in prison
.
So it's just all you know.
Blather, quite frankly, allthis, you'll be sent to prison,
you know, nonsense andnarcissists don't comply with
rules anyway.
Narcissists don't comply withcourt orders and rules because
the rules and laws don't applyto them.
So you know that that's.
That's a really important thingto do so before just jumping in
(01:03:06):
and thinking, oh my god, thisis a nightmare, I'm going to go
to court about the children.
Try the methods that I've sortof gone into, briefly gone into
and just now, like aboutreducing supply and
communication tactics andparallel parenting try that
first.
You know, because if you go tocourt, the there is a
(01:03:26):
presumption of contact.
There is a presumption stillthat contact with both parents
is better for the children andthat it's kind of better for,
even with an abusive parent,that it's better for the child
to see them than to not see them, which is why rapists and
murderers are allowed to seetheir children.
You know, even paedophiles cansee their children.
(01:03:49):
You know, convicted paedophilesnow think have their parental
responsibility removed from themautomatically, but they can
apply to have it brought back.
So you know, it's really notgood at all, you know.
So, yeah, so the harm report,which was done in 2020, showed
(01:04:12):
basically the deficiencies ofthe family justice system when
it comes to abusiverelationships and child
arrangements and talked aboutthis presumption of contact
being better than not havingcontact and really very little
has been done since that cameout to change things.
So the social workers judgesthey still go along with contact
(01:04:35):
being better and it beingharmful to not have contact with
an abusive parent, when in factit's harmful to have contact
with an abusive parent.
But if the powers that be don'tknow that, you know you're in
trouble.
And also, I have to say there'sbeen a massive study from the
US and it looks like it'ssimilar here, but we don't have
lots of data yet.
(01:04:55):
But basically, you're themother and you make allegations
of abuse against the father,particularly of sexual abuse
towards the children.
You're at risk of the fatherdefending himself by alleging
that you are engaging inparental alienation.
So you're alienating thechildren and it's quite likely
that he'll be believed.
It's quite likely that he'll bebelieved and I'm afraid we
(01:05:27):
often have cases where theyapply to have transfer of
residents to the care of thatfather and it is gender biased,
by the way.
So I mean in this case it iswhen a father goes in and says
she's alienating me from thechildren in and and says she's
alienating me from the children.
There's a.
There's a study on this.
It's by maya m e m e a I e?
R?
Um in america, long-termretrospective over 10 years.
They looked at the, the data um, and there was a, I think a 50
(01:05:49):
more.
I can't remember the actualfigures, but there was a massive
risk, huge um that, that umthat you would, if you were the
mother, you would lose umcustody, as they call it in
america, of the children um,with the children being
transferred into into his care,even in cases where it's been
shown he was abusive um.
But having said that, um it also, in many cases false
(01:06:11):
allegations against men arebelieved and I I mean that is a
huge thing.
I see so many men.
Probably 30% of my clients aremen, maybe even 40%.
Now I don't go with this thing.
That is so completely black andwhite.
That's out there that all menare the abusers and all women
(01:06:31):
are the victims.
You know, I'm sorry, but whenit comes to narcissism, that is
wrong and that really bothers me, because we've got a lot of
high profile people allegingthat and it's it's just totally
harmful and actually um.
You know, the court badly letsdown parents in this regard and
I have to say so.
I was contacted um a few yearsago by a client and I just had a
(01:06:55):
one-off session with thisclient and he wanted to know if
his wife was a narcissist and heprovided me with loads of
evidence and the behaviours He'dbeen weaponising the family
court massively against him.
And I was contacted by hisfamily early this year.
(01:07:15):
He died by suicide and his note.
He carefully thought about thisand everything was in the note
that he left, all of the familycourts and police issues that
she'd been believed hadn't um,you know, she'd alleged that he
(01:07:39):
was the abuser.
I mean, he just was not andjust no way.
And um, of course he wouldn'thave killed himself, would he if
he was.
Um, for starters, um, but um,just a dreadful situation.
So I wish that people wouldunderstand just how serious this
is.
You know, if suicide because anoffice wants to annihilate you,
(01:08:04):
they want to annihilate youemotionally, physically,
spiritually, you know,financially, on every level, and
sometimes they succeed, youknow, and the court and the
police enable that, so you know.
But with all of this, you know,and the court and the police
enable that, so you know.
But with all of this, you know.
So try and stay out of court,but so often you're just dragged
(01:08:24):
into court, you know, andthere's nothing you can do about
it, and I'm sure you've seenthat over and over again where
the person does not want to goto court, yeah, yeah.
So what can you do then?
You know and here again youwill get really poor advice
generally from your lawyers.
Unfortunately, I have to saythis you will be told no, no,
(01:08:47):
what you need to do is justappear to be the cooperative
parent.
You know you need todemonstrate that.
You know you can co-parent withthis person and you know you'll
just be reasonable and you willgive and give and give and
they'll make these allegationsand you know you just have to
defend yourself and that's it.
You know Well, no, if you getdragged into court and
allegations are made about youfalse allegations are made about
(01:09:10):
you fight.
You will have to and not onlydo you have to fight by
defending yourself.
I'm afraid you will need to goon the offensive, because you
already know what yournarcissistic ex is like.
You know.
You know you've got a load ofthings that they've done, and so
you will have to go on theoffensive and your lawyer will
have to go along with this, I'mafraid.
(01:09:31):
I mean they will tell you notto, most likely, but it's not
going to work.
They will think, oh, it'll allblow over.
It'll all blow over, he's justa bit annoyed or she's just a
bit annoyed, you know, once theycalm down, it'll all blow over.
It doesn't blow over with anarcissist, I mean, that's the
important thing, you know.
And if you don't stand up tothem early in the process,
they're just going to continue.
Your client, you know, and youknow 16 I've got, you know,
(01:09:58):
they'll just continue tolitigate.
They need to be told, you know.
Yes, it's giving themnarcissistic supply to go and
fight them.
But better done early thanlater, I think.
And also, if you're going to dothat, you have to realise and
you will be in a right state,and so you will think well, my
(01:10:20):
lawyers will be able to build acase for me and gather evidence,
because I'm spending £450 perhour plus the VAT or whatever it
is more in many cases on that,you know.
So that's what they do.
It isn't what they do.
They'll help me with mystatement, maybe, but it won't
be very good often because theywon't know the ins and outs of
your case and they won't knowwhat bits to pull out to show to
the judge.
And, with the evidence, theWhatsApp messages, the emails,
(01:10:43):
all the things you need to lookat and I've got a massive
detailed breakdown of exactlyhow to gather your evidence for
you know, if you are drawn intothe court process, exactly where
to look and exactly how to dothat, because your lawyer will
not do that for you look, andexactly how to do that, because
your lawyer will not do that foryou.
Um, so you have to do that, um.
And also, I think I have tomention it's really important to
(01:11:03):
not withhold the children'scontact with an autistic parent
unless you have got a veryprovable, very good reason to do
so, such as physical or sexualabuse.
You know bruises.
It has to be really, reallyobvious, otherwise, of course,
you can be accused of alienationand lose the children.
Tamsin Caine (01:11:23):
My client was told
essentially it's going to take
a broken bone to one of herchildren before before the
parent is the narcissisticparent is stopped from having uh
access being from sharing.
Dr Supriya McKenna (01:11:38):
Yeah awful
and you have to have to throw
your child into the lion's denand knowing that they're not
going to be, you know they'regoing to be unsafe around
swimming pools, they're going tobe.
You know it's burnt, um,sunburnt when they come really
badly, like everything's flakingwhen they come back from
holiday because they didn'tbother with.
You know sun cream, thatthey're not going to wear cycle
(01:11:59):
helmets, that the narcissist isgoing to drive like a maniac
around blind corners.
You know, with the children inthe car, I mean, you know you
have to give your children tothis person in parallel
parenting and just basicallycross your fingers, shut your
eyes and pray.
You know, every time you letthem go and you have to accept
that, you know it's awful, it'sawful.
(01:12:23):
So you know, and you can't makethem do any of those things and
knowing that they're not doing,if you tell them do this,
they'll just go.
Oh great, she doesn't like thefact that I don't use cycle
helmets.
Well, definitely not doing thatagain.
Then you know I'll throw theone I have got in the bin, you
know, you know.
(01:12:48):
But I think another importantpoint if you are dragged into
the court system is you knowyou're going to be.
You're going to have to seeCAFCAS so they're the kind of
court appointed social workersessentially, or a social worker
from the local authority Recordthem, record your conversations
with them.
You can tell them that you'rerecording them.
You don't have to tell themyou're recording them.
You ought to really.
If you're going to use um, theum, you know the recordings in
(01:13:09):
court, um, they will try and say, well, she recorded me.
They'll probably put that intheir report.
But you know you can say, well,I'm doing it because I'm I
can't think straight at themoment and I just want to
remember what was discussed.
You know that's a reasonablething to do and you know.
And if you have to record themcovertly, then record them
(01:13:30):
covertly, just do it.
Because I mean, there's lots ofguidance on covert recordings,
probably looking at the worth,looking at the family justice
council, fjc council's advice oncovert recordings, which has
recently been updated.
So if you google that it'llcome up, um, but you know still,
you know I really do suggestthat you record them because you
might think, oh, they werereally sympathetic towards me.
(01:13:52):
Good, you know, they get,they've understood what's going
on, brilliant.
Then they meet the narcissist.
They're charmed, you're theperpetrator.
All of a sudden, you know, andthe report that you get is very
different to what they said theywere going to write and lots of
things have been wrong.
There are always irregularitiesand things that are just plain
wrong, but also there are things, important things, that they
(01:14:14):
have completely missed out.
Never speak to a social workeror a CAFCAS officer on the phone
or in person or remotelywithout recording I can't give
you, I can't emphasise that morestrongly, because the chaos
that it's caused you know andyou know.
Finally, on that, through thecourts, really, with advice, if
(01:14:37):
you are going to get a childarrangements order through the
court, so the bit which says howtime is split between parents,
make sure it's really detailed,really detailed.
Like granular detail overdetailed, people might think,
but any loopholes will beexploited by the narcissist.
And I give an example plan inmy book.
So there's a plan in theco-parenting myth and also the
(01:15:00):
book From Leaving to Liberty thetruth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth.
It's the same plan, basically,and you'll see just how I just
close down all the loopholes sothat everything is detailed,
because that's what you need.
Uh, otherwise I'll just messaround um and um.
I mean, they might not stick toit.
They might stick to it to startwith and then muck around with
(01:15:22):
it, but you know, but at leastyou've got it so that you can.
You'll get some respite fromtheir behaviors.
You'll get probably a year ofrespite, possibly longer if,
depending on where they are onthe spectrum of narcissism.
You, you know how badlynarcissistic they are.
But yeah, that's really, that's.
That's that's really.
Those are my tips, I think, forthe court process.
(01:15:43):
In a nutshell
Tamsin Caine (01:15:44):
, A lot to take in
.
There's a lot to take in.
We are coming to the end of ourtime together.
I just just one final question,if that's's okay.
Can you just explain a littlebit?
You've mentioned, um, yourclients.
Can you just explain brieflywhat you do, how you work with
people, um, and and what thatprocess entails?
Dr Supriya McKenna (01:16:09):
yeah.
So I work with people remotely,so usually via zoom or once I
get to know them on the phone, II also do crisis calls with
them when I know their situation.
You know, I can communicate byWhatsApp and because I have, you
know, long term and quite oftenlong term clients who are being
pulled through the system, andso essentially I can, there's
(01:16:32):
all sorts of things that I cando.
I mean, obviously I can explainthe behaviours to them, but
more useful really is being ableto, because I know what's
coming next, essentially becauseI know when they're gaslighting
the court or trying to gaslighttheir ex or their ex's lawyers,
(01:16:53):
I can.
I know where to look to findholes in everything that they're
saying.
So that's the first thing I canhelp them gather their evidence
, for which their lawyer won'tdo.
So I can help them with theirwitness statements, essentially
gathering the evidence fromtheir witness statements and
just helping them, becausethey're all over the place.
I can just.
I write at speed so I can kindof get them, I can just put it
(01:17:17):
into a good order for them.
So I'm not writing it for them,but I'm, you know, getting all
the bits and perhaps saying well, have you thought about this or
what about that, or did youhave any evidence about?
What evidence have you got?
You know, just guide them inthe process that they can get
everything together for witnessstatements, which is really
really important, witnessstatements, which is really
really important.
So, as I say, I don't actuallywrite the witness statements for
(01:17:38):
them, but I just kind of helporganise them and that's really
a key.
But then, just managing thedaily things, they get that
awful message on our familywizard.
They don't know what to do,they're thrown into a panic and
I will do their responses forthem.
I regularly respond.
I mean, just last week I hadsomeone try and get a child to
apply for a school that was, youknow, next door to where she
lived and out of.
It wasn't a normal time to movethe child and I shut that down.
(01:18:02):
That's one where there's abarring order so she can't apply
to court.
And since they've been out ofthe court system, I mean she
managed to pull him back intofinancial proceedings because
she, you know, but since they'vebeen out of the court system,
with with um, with the children,um, I've done his responses and
he's been absolutely amazed.
(01:18:22):
He can't believe it.
He thinks I've got some, youknow, psychic ability because
you know I've just written backfor him and I write you know, he
, he does, he writes hisresponse and then I tweak it
basically to make to take allthe heat out of him, to turn it
into a very kind of boundaryresponse and she's left with
nowhere to run, basically.
So so I just shut her down overand over again.
(01:18:43):
So I do that kind of thing, sojust responding to their
messages, and sometimes there'sno need to respond, you know,
because it's just going to givesupply, but we build a case
through correspondence withagainst them, basically.
So, cause we know it's going toend up in court, so we wait.
We build a case responding inexactly the right way, so that,
(01:19:07):
so that we're building a case,essentially helping them to not
be, you know, overly emotional,but I mean.
So that's kind of largely whatI do, and I do work with
solicitors directly as well, soI can be in on the meetings with
the solicitors and often alsowith council, so with the
barristers, depending on thelawyers.
Not all of them think it'srelevant to have me there, but
(01:19:32):
you know, I think a key functionI perform actually is, um, that
I because a lot of people havegot complex ptsd, which means
they're thrown into this, theycan't think straight because
they're thrown into panic allthe time and fear, and it's just
you can't, um, you can't thinkstraight, and I go into how to
deal with that.
Actually, in fact, my latestpodcast episode is on how to
deal with fear, so I've just putthat out so that might be
(01:19:53):
useful for people.
But I become their thinkerbasically in those meetings.
So the lawyers hate it becauseI kind of ask all the questions
that they should be asking, butthey can't think to ask and they
go.
I feel like I'm talking toSupriya rather than the client,
you know.
But you know it's like well,never mind, get over yourself.
You know what's the answer andof course I'll then I'll be
(01:20:14):
jotting everything down and theclient will then be going what's
, what was that about that again, and what did they mean about
what?
And what was the thing about?
Because, like again, they'regoing round and round in circles
.
They can't remember and theirlawyer doesn't really know how
to deal with people like that.
You know, they think that andthey'll use jargon, of course as
well.
Um, the lawyers will, and andthey're not really explaining
(01:20:35):
the system.
So my role is to kind ofexplain things and basically I
dance around the, the, um, thewhole thing, and I'm like,
basically I like to describe itas playing three-dimensional
chess um, because that's whatthe narcissist is doing.
They're playingthree-dimensional chess.
Everyone else has got ablindfold on except me, so I'm
playing them at their own game,essentially
Tamsin Caine (01:20:56):
yeah, we'll put
your contact details in the show
notes so that, if anybody doesneed your help, that they can
contact you um, along with linksto your books, um, which are, I
think, all available on Amazon.
Dr Supriya McKenna (01:21:11):
Yeah,
they're all on Amazon.
There's some audio books as well, um, pdf versions of the book,
because you, very often peopledon't want the physical, you
know, they don't want it on thebedside table or, you know,
because if they're having tolive in the same house, even
though they're separated, um, so, yeah, I've got pdf versions of
the book, um, they can just puton their ipad or whatever, or
phone um on my um available toget from my website.
(01:21:35):
If you've got a kindle, you canbuy the kindle version from
amazon as well.
Um, and I am going to be doingaudiobooks.
I've got one audiobook out atthe moment available from
audible, but I'm going to bedoing audiobooks and making them
available from my website, Ithink, as well, because that's
really useful for people,because they can listen when
they're, you know, you knowdriving around or you know
they've gone out for a walk orwhatever, and the narcissist,
(01:21:57):
you know, through headphones, sothe narcissist won't know that
they're um, they're listening,so it's um, perfect, that's.
I'm trying to make it asconvenient as possible for
people.
Tamsin Caine (01:22:07):
Yeah, absolutely
completely agree, Supriya.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
Thank you so so much for yourtime.
I'm sure that our audience willfind that incredibly useful.
Thank you for joining us and wewill see you next time.
Hi, and I hope you enjoyed thatepisode of the Smart Divorce
(01:22:29):
Podcast.
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website,
wwwsmartdivorcecouk.
Also, if you are listening onApple Podcasts or on Spotify and
you wouldn't mind leaving us alovely five-star review, that
would be fantastic.
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this is
(01:22:53):
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
Facebook group now.
It's called Separation, divorceand Dissolution UK.
Please do go on to Facebook,search up the group, and we'd be
(01:23:14):
delighted to have you join us.
The one thing I would say is doplease answer their membership
questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.