November 21, 2025 • 37 mins
Tamsin and our guest Adele Ballantyne guide the listeners through the first decisions after a relationship ends, focusing on pacing, safety, and pathways that reduce conflict and cost. Adele shares practical ways to build a support team, choose kinder legal routes, and protect children while emotions run high.
Adele Ballantyne
MA Relationship Therapy, P/G Dip Relationship Therapy, RGN/RSCN, Dip Health Visiting and Social Care
Adele specialises in relationship breakdown, separation, divorce and co-parenting, whilst also providing training and therapeutic support for all Family Law professionals.
In addition to this work, Adele is very passionate and proactive in her work in divorce and separation. Following work with private clients, she recognised a need for Family Law professionals to have a greater understanding of the psychological and emotional impact of divorce.
This has led Adele to become an active member of Resolution (www.resolution.org.uk ), taking on the role and Co-Chairperson of the Parenting After Parting Committee; the first therapeutic member of the organisation to hold two chair positions.
Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/eledaconsultancy/
Website: https://eledaconsultancy.com/about-us/
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it here https://yourdivorcehandbook.co.uk/buy-the-book/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tamsin Caine (00:06):
Hello and welcome to today's episode of the Smart
Divorce Podcast.
I'm delighted to be joinedagain today by the lovely Adele
Ballatine.
She is a wonderful businessfriend of mine and is going to
introduce herself fully veryshortly, but I'm really happy
that she's joined us todaybecause she's going to provide
(00:27):
some excellent insights aboutthe things you should do when
you're in the initial swings ofdivorce.
So you're perhaps thinkingabout separation, you're
starting to think about divorce.
Where should we go and whatshould we do?
Adele, thank you for joining meagain.
Adele Ballantyne (00:44):
Thanks, Tamsin.
It's always good to have a chatwith you.
Thank you.
Tamsin Caine (00:48):
Likewise.
And we said before we umpressed record that we can we
can usually talk for hours andhours on this, but uh we
definitely won't today.
We're going to keep it toaround about half an hour.
So if you could start by justtelling our audience a little
bit about you and and what youdo and how you got involved in
working with people goingthrough divorce.
Adele Ballantyne (01:09):
I am a relationship therapist.
And initially, when I startedmy practice, I thought I would
just have a quiet littlemedieval market town practice in
Shropshire where I live.
Unfortunately, uh, whathappened was um, or fortunately
maybe, um, the clients I wasseeing, I was seeing as many
(01:30):
people who were choosing toseparate as I was, you know, uh
wanting to grow a newrelationship together.
And so really from must beabout 15 years ago now, started
working um more in theseparation and divorce space.
And I also noticed that thesolicitors, family, family um
(01:53):
professionals, law professionalsthat they were going to see to
help with the legal aspect oftheir divorce, you know,
sometimes it was having a hugeimpact on their ability to
communicate together and tobegin that relationship of
co-parenting.
And so I then started workingwith family law professionals as
(02:15):
well to try and help themnegotiate this, you know,
because they didn't really learna lot about the clients that
they were working with.
And so I've been working forthe past sort of 12 years with
divorce lawyers, uh, legalprofessionals to try and really
help them understandrelationship breakdown from a
(02:35):
psychological view and why theyneed to make a few adjustments
in order to help their clientsand indeed themselves.
And so I work with individuals,couples, and families, mainly
in the divorce and separationspace these days.
But I work all over the countryvia Zoom, mainly with my
(02:55):
clients, but I also deliverin-house and in various places
throughout the UK the thedifferent courses I I provide.
Tamsin Caine (03:06):
That's a lot it is a lot.
It's it's like when you start abusiness or you start working
in a particular space and itnever quite ends up being what
you imagine it's gonna be.
I'm definitely in that bracket,but we're not here to talk
about me, so I'm not gonna getstuck into that.
So let's take somebody in thesituation who is perhaps things
(03:31):
aren't right with with theirspouse and they are thinking
about separation and whetherthat's right for them.
What are the first steps thatthat they should start to take?
Adele Ballantyne (03:42):
I think firstly we have to talk about
what sort of relationship it is.
So if it's a dangerousrelationship or a really
unhealthy, toxic type, abusiverelationship, then obviously
that's a different differentsubject matter, really.
So if we're looking at arelationship that has just
broken down, you've perhaps beentogether for a while, you've
(04:03):
got children, uh, but it's justnot working.
I would say if you can try andgo and see a good relationship
therapist or couples therapist,because that can be the start of
many different journeys.
You know, it can be one way youcan go and discuss where you
(04:24):
are right now, how you gotthere, and whether you want to
do something about it.
Now, you may feel that you'vealready explored all of those
options, but sometimes justsitting with somebody who isn't
part of your uh couple can bereally helpful.
Um, you know, we can talk aboutall different sorts of uh
things that you might not havethought about because some
(04:47):
sometimes couples actuallythey're just stuck and they
they, you know, with a fewtweaks, but like going to the
dentist every six months, youknow, if people saw a
relationship therapist once oncea year, even in their
relationship life as a couple,as a preventative, as a checkup,
you know, this this is workingreally well, excuse me, but
(05:10):
we're arguing a lot, or thiskeeps coming up, you can work on
that and help help to resolveit.
Now, for some couples, theycome, we have those
conversations and they decide toend their relationship.
And so then it's about okay,what comes next, particularly if
you have children?
And it's interesting becausecohabiting couples are starting
(05:33):
to outnumber married couples.
So we have to bear that in mindwhen we're talking about
relationship breakdown, becausethere is still a myth that there
is common law marriage andthere isn't.
And although there's a lot ofwork to change cohabitation law
at the moment, there's nothingto protect you.
So important conversations needto happen once you've decided
(05:57):
to move your separate ways.
Tamsin Caine (05:58):
Absolutely.
Um, just before we move on toother questions, what if you're
in this position and yourpartner or spouse, because we'll
talk about cohabitating couplesas well as married couples, if
your spouse is just not preparedto come to a relationship
(06:20):
therapist, they're just theydon't believe in it or don't
feel it's gonna help, or it'sjust not it's not for them, and
they're they're absolutelyadamant they're not gonna not
gonna come and see you.
What can be done?
Because that is to me that thatmakes sense, that's the first
step you would take.
But if somebody's reallyputting the blockers up, what
(06:45):
can you do?
Adele Ballantyne (06:46):
I think you can still come yourself because
you can learn a lot.
Quite often couples will talkabout they need to change,
somebody needs to change, butexcuse me, we can't change
anybody if they don't want to,and so, but we can change
ourselves, and sometimes theimpact of changing ourselves has
a direct result on the personthat we're living with.
(07:08):
Secondly, I would say, and Ihave said this on many
occasions, you know,relationship therapists, couples
counselors, we're not here tokeep you together.
When that's not our job, ourjob is to help you decide what
you need to do based on whereyou are right now.
And so many people think, well,if you go and see a
(07:33):
relationship therapist, thenwell, I don't want to stay
together, so why would I go?
It's not just about that.
Also, I think depending on howa therapist practice, and I
always see each coupleindividually for a first
session, and then if it's safeto do so, I'll see them
together.
And so that hour with somebodywho perhaps has been trying to
(07:57):
tell a partner something andthey're not listening, or
perhaps you know, they feel likethey're just being criticized
all the time, so they've shutdown.
Actually, that hour reallygives people an opportunity to
talk about their relationshipthrough their own lens, through
from where they're sitting.
And and I've had partners whosaid, Oh, I you know, I thought
(08:22):
I was being dragged here to keepthis together.
You're telling me you're notgonna make us stay together.
And I'm like, it's I can't makeyou do anything, you know, and
that's not my job.
Um, I also say to reluctantpeople, it's an hour out of your
life.
If it if you find that it's nogood, you don't have to come
again.
It's not compulsory.
(08:42):
Um, but I would always urge youif you're if you're interested
in understanding relationships abit more and your own
relationship, then just justcome and see somebody and talk
it through.
They may offer uh informationthat you haven't thought about.
Uh, and it also can perhapsgive you some top tips and
(09:02):
strategies for beginning theconversations that you need with
a reluctant partner, and that'sreally vital.
Tamsin Caine (09:09):
Absolutely.
And I guess the other thing isthat it can help, even if this
one you've you've you do decideto separate, it can help future
relationships as well tounderstand yourself a little bit
better, can't it?
Adele Ballantyne (09:23):
It can, it can, and it's always helpful
learning a bit about yourself asyou go through life.
We are evolutionary uhcreatures, aren't we?
And you know, we're verydifferent in in at different
points, different decades of ourlives.
We we change, we evolve basedon the experiences we have, the
relationships that we have.
(09:44):
And it could be that it mightbe something that that we're
doing that is is causingrelationships not to work out,
and sometimes just taking timeto reflect.
It's a bit like you know, NewYear's Eve, isn't it?
Everybody's taught to, youknow, think about what's your
new year's resolution, what doyou want to have for the next
year?
Well, you can't do that unlessyou take time out to think about
(10:07):
what's okay in your life,what's not okay, what needs to
be different.
And that's what talking tosomebody like me will help you
with.
Tamsin Caine (10:16):
Yeah, no, I love that.
Let's move on to you havedecided to you've well, you've
either decided yourself ortogether, or it's been decided
for you, so your other partneris leaving.
Uh then what what things dopeople need to be thinking
about?
What are the steps that theyneed to be taking first?
Adele Ballantyne (10:40):
I think the first thing is don't panic,
don't rush.
You don't have to have this alldecided within the next few
weeks.
Because once you've decidedthat the relationship's over in
whatever way that is, you know,you are you are grieving, you
are pushed into the grief cycle.
And so you'll be all over theplace, ups and downs.
(11:02):
Now it's usual in couples thatone person has decided a good 18
months, two years that they'renot okay, and it's been a
gradual move towards having thatconversation.
So they're going to be at adifferent stage of the grieving
process to the person who's justheard it.
So give them time, let itsettle in.
You might have got to thatpoint of acceptance where you
(11:25):
need to move on, but they're oncatch-up.
So they need time, they need tolet it sink in, they're going
to be angry, upset, volatile, oryou know, mixed with depressed
and sad.
And so let them adjust, givethem adjustment time.
I think the next stage fromthat is to get some information,
(11:48):
particularly if you havechildren.
Information is graduallyincreasing in the UK.
Um, it used to be quite hard tofind.
Um, I would recommendeverybody, if they can go to the
resolution website and downloada copy of the Parenting Through
Separation Guide.
It's a short uh booklet thatwill really, really help you.
(12:11):
It covers all the different uhareas that are going to be
coming up in the future.
So get some information.
Perhaps do a parent program.
Um, that again will give youlots of information.
And there are quite a few nowin the country, and there will
be a directory coming up in thenot too distant future.
(12:33):
Um, and I would recommendcertainly that you go um and do
a parent program.
It will put you in touch withother people who are about to go
on this journey or who arealready a bit further down the
line.
It stops you from feelingalone, it helps you to
understand importantly whatyou're going to need, but more
(12:56):
importantly, what your childrenare going to need, because it's
our behavior as adults that canreally mess up our kids.
And we've got to really becareful about how we keep the
adult relationship breakdownjourney separate from what will
become hopefully a goodco-parent uh journey.
(13:19):
And so, courses parent programswill really help you with that.
So I would say that's the firststep.
Don't panic and get lots ofinformation.
Tamsin Caine (13:30):
I like the idea of taking time because I think one
of the things that I certainlysee is a rush to contact a
lawyer to get a decision abouthow you're going to divide
everything.
And in those first few weeksand months, you're not in a
position where you should bemaking decisions that impact the
(13:52):
whole of the rest of your life.
And taking time to be in asgood an emotional space and
state as possible is worth itsweight in gold to make sure that
you're making the bestdecisions later as well.
So I think that's um I thinkthat's excellent advice.
And the the parenting plans andso on, fantastic advice too.
(14:14):
How would somebody go aboutgetting their heads into the
best place possible to be inthat good enough in that
emotional state to be makingthese decisions about children,
about money, about where they'regoing to live, all those sorts
of things that that need to bedecided?
Adele Ballantyne (14:35):
I think for me, the next step then is the
support team that you createaround you.
And that's that's that's alldifferent kinds of people that
can help you.
So certainly coming to talk tosomebody like me who work in
under this um in thisenvironment.
I I call myself a familyconsultant.
Um, we work with legalprofessionals to help clients
(14:59):
come through this.
So find a family consultant,find a co-parent coach.
There's some really goodco-parent coach, Marcy Schauel
and her fantastic co-parentingmethod.
Absolutely helpful.
It will just give you someinformation.
I think we are really tryingnow to stop people from going to
(15:23):
court because family court isno place for families that
aren't abusive, really.
They they families need to keepout of out of court.
So think about what sort of uhlegal professional you want to
work with.
In the rottweiler days of I'llsee you in court, you know, I'm
(15:43):
taking you for everything you'vegot.
We're moving away from that nowbecause the people who suffer
are you as an individual andyour kids.
So find a kind lawyer, findsomebody who has a good approach
who will calm any any bigemotional situations, not fan
(16:07):
the flames and make it worse.
Choose, find out, get someinformation about what kind of
legal process you want.
Do you want to do it online?
I wouldn't necessarilyrecommend that in itself,
because I think lots of us needlegal advice.
So, but there are differentways now.
So, do you want to go and seeone lawyer?
(16:30):
Because you can do that now.
One one lawyer for both of you,and you go together.
Do you want to go and see amediator?
Have some really good work withthem.
There's a voucher scheme now,so you get some money off.
Then when you've gone throughmediation, go and see a lawyer.
And that one lawyer will beable to then put that into the
(16:53):
legal speak that it needs to gointo, the legal bit, and then
you're done.
Do you want a collaborativelawyer?
Would you feel more confidenthaving your own representation?
Brilliant.
Choose collaborative divorce.
Each of you have a lawyer.
You agree and sign a documentto say you don't want to go to
(17:15):
court, and then you sit round atable.
But you don't just sit round atable with two lawyers.
You sit around a table withsomebody like me and somebody
like you tums in because there'sfinances to think about as
well.
But the conversations you haveare around a table in person.
And the only letters that youwill get from your lawyer are
(17:38):
those confirming what was agreedin the meetings.
It's a great, it's a great wayto go through the divorce
process.
And if there are elements thatyou can't agree on, then in
collaborative process, you canget an arbitrator in.
Arbitration is like going tocourt, but not going to court.
You get a legal professionalwho is just focused on that,
(18:01):
those issues that you can'tagree on.
And then they make a judgment,like a judge would.
Try not to think about that onan angry day, because there will
be days where you are angry.
Try and think of it on an onanother day.
(18:24):
But think about the sort ofdivorce you want.
Think about who you need inyour support team.
So you've got a familyconsultant, you've got your
divorce lawyer in whatever waythat looks.
And think about who you want tosupport you, family and
friends.
Again, pick somebody who knowsyou well and who isn't just
(18:45):
going to go with the flow ofwhat you're thinking and
feeling.
Yes, you want the support, butyou don't want somebody saying,
Yeah, do this, do that.
You know, let's take them down.
Actually, you want somebody tosay, hey Tamsin, you're on an
angry day, or hey Tamsin, I hearwhat you're saying, and
obviously it's that's reallyupsetting.
(19:06):
And as your friend, God, that'sterrible.
I'm really sorry.
Let's reflect on this thoughand think about it tomorrow,
because making that decisionmight not be good for your kids,
might not be good for you.
So family will always want tobe in your corner, they'll
always want to protect you,particularly parents if you have
(19:28):
them.
Um again, you want a parent whois going to calm things down.
And sometimes that's having aconversation with those people
and saying, look, when I'm goingoff on one and I'm being really
unreasonable, what I need youto do is talk me down.
You'll learn things like thaton parent programs, you'll learn
(19:51):
techniques like that when youcome and see somebody like me.
So build a support team.
So in stages, we're looking atnot panicking and getting
information.
We're looking at, you know,doing a parent, parent program,
like a spear poor.
I do one first aid first stepsfor parents, and then we build
(20:12):
that support team.
So you've got a series ofsteps, if you like, that you can
follow.
Tamsin Caine (20:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
That's great advice.
In terms of of things that youcan do for yourself to keep your
to put yourself in a goodspace, is there anything you
would recommend when you it'svery difficult to take that time
and not do anything?
Is there is there anything thatthat you would recommend that
(20:40):
people are doing?
Because there's this need to dosomething, isn't there, when
something happens to you?
Is there anything that youwould recommend people
personally do?
I don't know, meditation or Idon't know, anything like that
to get them in the in a reallygood space?
Adele Ballantyne (20:55):
Yeah, self-care, next step, really,
because lots of people say tome, Oh, I've lost so much weight
since I've been on the sinceour my relationship has broken
down.
Call it the D diet, don't know,the divorce diet.
And and that's because whenwe're grieving, our bodies
produce lots of chemicals, youknow, and we're in this time of
(21:15):
stress, and we either sleep toomuch or not enough, we either
eat too much or not enough.
It really messes with us.
We've got thoughts whizzingaround our heads, you know.
We've this isn't also a threatto us.
So we are in that freeze,fight, flight, fawn mode, and
and that of course can affectour day-to-day thinking, our
(21:38):
day-to-day functioning.
So get a routine to together sothat you've got some time to
care for yourself and have abuddy who will say, have you,
you know, have you eaten today?
Have you had some meditativetime?
Maybe some, we talk about thisa lot, don't we?
(21:58):
Lots of breathing, lots ofmindfulness.
And it sounds quite, I don'tknow, it sounds like, oh yeah,
we do that anyway, don't we?
We breathe all the time.
But taking time out, and itdoesn't need to be a lot, we're
all busy, but you know, in themorning, if you're making a cup
of tea, just go and standoutside and breathe some fresh
(22:19):
air while the kettle's boiling.
Literally, you know, the thesethings uh that you can do.
Take some time to eat well,because when we're stressed, we
tend to just grab and go.
And sometimes what we grab isnot necessarily healthy.
So it doesn't have to be umcomplicated, you know, if you're
(22:41):
if you're not a vegan or on adiet, you know, boiled egg, a
half-boiled egg, keep some inyour fridge.
It's protein, it'll give yousome energy.
Make sure you're drinkingplenty, water, tea, coffee,
whatever it is.
Not wine, not wine.
What I mean, an occasionalglass of wine or a night out
with your friends, that can bereally helpful.
(23:04):
A good, good laugh with yourfriends when there's not much to
laugh at at the moment.
Really helpful, you know, andsupport your children while
they're going through this aswell.
There are some great resourcesfor kids out there now.
Particular book, the um, oh, Ialways forget what it's called.
It's like the split survivalguide for for kids, and Harold
(23:24):
Rudkin.
Amazing book for kids becauseit helps them understand what
you're going through and willgive them a bit of
encouragement, reassure themtheir world's been turned upside
down, but not in the same waythat your world's been turned
upside down.
Because for them, they'relooking at it that you're their
mum and dad, not that you're,you know, Frida and Barry and
(23:48):
your two adults who've who'vefallen out.
They're not looking at it likethat.
You're mum and dad, and you aretheir world.
And so they need somereassurance.
So, so I think self-care forthem, make sure that your kids
are okay too.
It's all right if they see youcrying, that's all right.
Parents worry about that.
(24:08):
It gives them permission to cryif they see you doing it,
because this is a sad time.
Lots of changes happening.
So pace yourself, look afteryourself and your children.
And you know, that willcertainly help on this journey.
Tamsin Caine (24:25):
That's really good advice.
I was gonna uh something cameup for me whilst you were
talking around help.
I I don't know if everybody'slike this, but when I was going
through my divorce, I reallystruggled to accept help that
people were offering, and itmight be can I look after the
kids for a couple of hours foryou?
(24:45):
And I was in this space oftrying to be superwoman and hold
down a full-time job.
And I mean, I did it a reallyridiculous time.
I was doing a master's as well.
So I was holding out afull-time job, going through a
master's, trying to bring up twokids, and all of this was going
(25:06):
on for me, and people wereoffering help, and I'm not very
good at accepting it, but weshould accept help, shouldn't
we?
Adele Ballantyne (25:14):
Yeah, yeah.
It's this is as big.
This is this in terms of lifeevents.
Death is a is a huge stresslife event.
The second is divorce,separation.
And so, you know, what would wedo if somebody we knew had lost
a loved one through death?
We'd be there, we would beoffering support.
(25:36):
We're not an island, receivingsupport is not a weakness, it's
a strength, it's showingvulnerability and being
vulnerable with people issomething we need to get better
at.
And I hold my hand up as well.
I'm terrible for acceptinghelp.
(25:56):
However, once you get into thehabit of it and start saying yes
instead of no, actually it getsa lot easier.
And also it's about the type ofhelp.
So ask for what you need.
Sometimes we're not very goodat that.
So, particularly if parents aresaying, Oh, and I'll do this
(26:17):
and I'll do that.
If that's not going to behelpful to you, you're going to
refuse it.
So ask for what you need.
That's lovely.
Thanks for offering to do that,Dad.
But actually, this would bemore helpful to me right now, or
even preempt it.
Sit and think about, well,what's the week ahead looking
like?
What am I going to need helpwith?
And then asking, you know,because people want to help you.
(26:41):
So ask for what you need ratherthan be, you know, overwhelmed
by offers of things thatactually you don't need help
with, but do ask for help.
Tamsin Caine (26:52):
And I think people, people who are offering
their help genuinely want tohelp, and they're not offering
it out of sympathy or whatever,they get something back from
being able to be there for youand to help you, don't they?
Adele Ballantyne (27:07):
Yeah, they do.
They do.
And and yeah, it it gives you afeel good, and and you you
would hope, wouldn't you, thatif if then anything happened
with you, that it would bereciprocated.
I think one thing that oftenstands out with what clients
tell me is that in theirfriendship group, they've been
(27:29):
really surprised by people'sreactions to when they tell them
that they are separating.
And some people who you thinkhave got your back haven't.
And they've been reallysurprised that people they
thought they were good friendswith have disappeared from their
social circle.
(27:50):
Be prepared for that because wedon't expect that.
We think that the people thatwe're uh socializing with, have
made friendships with, you know,are authentic and sometimes
they're not, or sometimes theyjust can't cope with what's
happening.
Maybe they've had a traumaticchildhood where their parents
(28:10):
had separated and it's too tootriggering for them to be around
you.
Sometimes they might choose tobe friends with your ex rather
than you, and you might bereally surprised by that.
Yeah.
I think it's just important topoint that out because you know,
we I hear it a lot.
Yeah, so it does happen.
Tamsin Caine (28:32):
It absolutely does.
And sometimes the people whostep up and who are there for it
for you are absolutely not thepeople you expect to be the ones
to support you.
But um yeah, absolutely beprepared for that, but also
accept accept help if it'suseful from those who are
offering it.
I just want to touch verybriefly because we mentioned at
(28:54):
the minute at the beginning thatwe weren't, we weren't the
advice that you've just givenwasn't around toxic coercive
relationships where there'swhere there's abuse.
And I work a lot with withpeople who are leaving abusive
relationships, and and I knowyou do as well.
The this is very different, andI just want to touch briefly on
(29:17):
on how you might approach thatin in a different way, and also
because I feel that quite a lotof my clients don't necessarily
realise they were in an abusiverelationship until it comes to
an end, and then they startlooking back and they think, oh
yeah, no, that that wasn'tright.
(29:39):
There's always been this flowof things.
What would you suggest topeople who are in that position?
Adele Ballantyne (29:45):
I think the first thing to say is we we are
currently living in a worldwhere everybody is a narcissist,
everybody is abusive, everybodyis controlling.
We're not.
There are there are dangerousand unhealthy relationships out
there, absolutely.
Absolutely.
So we have to think aboutsafety first and foremost.
So is this relationship as safeas it can be right now?
(30:11):
Or do we have to take immediateaction so that everybody is
safe?
So always from a point of viewof safety.
I think understanding, andcertainly when I meet somebody,
if they say, oh, they'recontrolling that they're
narcissistic.
I'm a psychotherapist, I'm nota psychologist or a
(30:32):
psychiatrist.
They are the only people whocan diagnose narcissistic
personality disorder.
Do we show narcissistic traitswhen we're under emotional
pressure?
Absolutely we do.
And it can make us into verynasty people.
Does it mean we've beencontrolling coercive all our
relationship life?
Not necessarily.
So we have to be cautious.
(30:53):
We have to be cautious.
It's one thing to say, oh mypartner's controlling with
finances.
If you just take that as thatstatement is delivered to you
and you run with that, you'veonly got a very limited amount
of information.
We don't have any informationthat says, yes, they are
(31:14):
controlling.
They they watch everything thatI spend.
I have no access to money.
I've got no credit cards, no,no debit cards.
I've given this amount of moneyand I have to manage with it.
Um, I had a client once whosehusband used to go through the
bin to make sure she hadn'tthrown anything away because she
once threw a moldy crust away,and he was furious about that.
(31:36):
So we have to think about whatrelationships look like.
It could be they've talked toyou about finance and their
partners not giving them accessto some money because maybe that
person has run up debt and theythey don't want to be in any
more debt.
We don't know, do we?
And in in relationships, somecouples never really talk about
(32:00):
how to handle the finance.
One usually doesn't likeanything to do with it, and one
usually does.
So if you're the one who said,Well, shall I do the finances in
happy times?
And you've gone, yeah, yeah,because I hate, I hate all of
that.
You do all the bills and allthe um roll that forward 10
years.
(32:20):
Well, I've never had anythingto do with finance that he he,
she has been really controlling.
You've got to find out moreinformation.
So if it is a really dangerousrelationship, an abusive
situation, a controlling andcoercive one, then we've got to
think about an exit strategythat is the safest for you.
(32:41):
And it's a it's a long topic totalk about, but I work from
place of safety first andforemost.
Um, and usually when you'rewanting to leave an abusive
relationship, if it's not onewhere you have to leave
immediately and seek sheltersomewhere, then it's about
planning, planning an exitstrategy where you're going to
(33:02):
be supported and safe.
Tamsin Caine (33:05):
Absolutely.
And a couple of places tocontact, just because we're not
going to go into detail in intoday's podcast, but there are
other podcasts where we do gointo much more detail.
But places to contact women'said, refuge, your local domestic
abuse services, please.
If you're if you believe thatthere's any chance your phone or
laptop might be being tracked,please do it from a friend's
(33:27):
phone or laptop so that you'renot putting yourself in further
danger.
And those services, thosecharities will help you to plan
an exit strategy, or if it'surgent and you're not safe, they
will try and find you someaccommodation.
So please do contact thosecharities if you if you believe
that's your situation.
We're coming to the end of ourtime.
(33:49):
As I said at the beginning, Iknew we would be able to talk
about this topic for hours onend.
Is there anything that you wantto add to what we've said today
or anything that I should haveasked you?
Adele Ballantyne (33:59):
I don't think so.
I think just take your time.
I know it feels desperate, Iknow it feels immediate, but get
some information.
Learn as much as you can.
You know, if you are in asituation where you can share
that information with your umsoon-to-be ex-partner, do and
make sure you you're learningabout this journey together,
(34:23):
particularly if you havechildren, because they're going
to need you.
And as responsible parents, youknow, it is about stepping into
parenting shoes rather thanadult shoes when you're making
decisions about them for yourchildren.
That's really hard to masterwhen you're going through these
(34:45):
emotional early stages ofseparation.
So you have got time.
Marcy always says this is amarathon, not a sprint.
And long after you finishedwith the divorce lawyers, your
life goes on as co-parents.
So learn about whatco-parenting is.
Learn about what informationyou need to share and what you
(35:07):
don't.
You might not want your ex inyour life anymore, but your kids
will.
So, how do you enable them tohave that loving, free
relationship with the otherparent when you're feeling the
way that you do?
Tamsin Caine (35:22):
Yeah, that's brilliant advice.
And and you're absolutelyright.
You know, I'm 10 years divorcedand I'm still, my kids are 20
and 21, and we're stillco-parenting them.
You know, they still, theystill need you long after you
perhaps think that that won't bethe case.
And and there are still thingsand issues that that I need to
(35:43):
speak to my fellow co-parentabout and make sure that we we
form a united front.
So that's um that's really goodadvice.
Adele, as always, thank you somuch for joining me today.
Um that was wonderful to speakto you.
Um, and we will include Adele'sdetails in the show notes
should you want to get in touchwith her or need her assistance
(36:05):
if you are in any of thepositions that we've discussed
today.
Also, Adele mentioned Marcy, umMarcy Shoel.
She you can find an episodethat we recorded with her when
she released her book, I thinkonly a couple of months ago.
So please do look back for thatepisode because you'll find it
very useful if you want to hearall about co-parenting um and
(36:26):
her book and various coursesthat she offers.
Thank you for joining me.
Thank you, Adele, for joiningme, and we'll be back very soon.
Adele Ballantyne (36:34):
Many thanks.
Thanks, Tamsin.
Tamsin Caine (36:41):
Hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the
Smart Divorce Podcast.
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website
www.smartdivorce.co.uk.
Also, if you are listening onApple Podcasts or on Spotify and
you wouldn't mind leaving us alovely five-star review, that
(37:04):
would be fantastic.
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
Facebook group now.
It's called Separation, Divorceand Dissolution UK.
(37:27):
Please do go on to Facebook,search up the group, and we'd be
delighted to have you join us.
The one thing I would say is doplease answer their membership
questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
Hello and welcome to today's episode of the Smart
Divorce Podcast.
I'm delighted to be joinedagain today by the lovely Adele
Ballatine.
She is a wonderful businessfriend of mine and is going to
introduce herself fully veryshortly, but I'm really happy
that she's joined us todaybecause she's going to provide
(00:27):
some excellent insights aboutthe things you should do when
you're in the initial swings ofdivorce.
So you're perhaps thinkingabout separation, you're
starting to think about divorce.
Where should we go and whatshould we do?
Adele, thank you for joining meagain.
Adele Ballantyne (00:44):
Thanks, Tamsin.
It's always good to have a chatwith you.
Thank you.
Tamsin Caine (00:48):
Likewise.
And we said before we umpressed record that we can we
can usually talk for hours andhours on this, but uh we
definitely won't today.
We're going to keep it toaround about half an hour.
So if you could start by justtelling our audience a little
bit about you and and what youdo and how you got involved in
working with people goingthrough divorce.
Adele Ballantyne (01:09):
I am a relationship therapist.
And initially, when I startedmy practice, I thought I would
just have a quiet littlemedieval market town practice in
Shropshire where I live.
Unfortunately, uh, whathappened was um, or fortunately
maybe, um, the clients I wasseeing, I was seeing as many
(01:30):
people who were choosing toseparate as I was, you know, uh
wanting to grow a newrelationship together.
And so really from must beabout 15 years ago now, started
working um more in theseparation and divorce space.
And I also noticed that thesolicitors, family, family um
(01:53):
professionals, law professionalsthat they were going to see to
help with the legal aspect oftheir divorce, you know,
sometimes it was having a hugeimpact on their ability to
communicate together and tobegin that relationship of
co-parenting.
And so I then started workingwith family law professionals as
(02:15):
well to try and help themnegotiate this, you know,
because they didn't really learna lot about the clients that
they were working with.
And so I've been working forthe past sort of 12 years with
divorce lawyers, uh, legalprofessionals to try and really
help them understandrelationship breakdown from a
(02:35):
psychological view and why theyneed to make a few adjustments
in order to help their clientsand indeed themselves.
And so I work with individuals,couples, and families, mainly
in the divorce and separationspace these days.
But I work all over the countryvia Zoom, mainly with my
(02:55):
clients, but I also deliverin-house and in various places
throughout the UK the thedifferent courses I I provide.
Tamsin Caine (03:06):
That's a lot it is a lot.
It's it's like when you start abusiness or you start working
in a particular space and itnever quite ends up being what
you imagine it's gonna be.
I'm definitely in that bracket,but we're not here to talk
about me, so I'm not gonna getstuck into that.
So let's take somebody in thesituation who is perhaps things
(03:31):
aren't right with with theirspouse and they are thinking
about separation and whetherthat's right for them.
What are the first steps thatthat they should start to take?
Adele Ballantyne (03:42):
I think firstly we have to talk about
what sort of relationship it is.
So if it's a dangerousrelationship or a really
unhealthy, toxic type, abusiverelationship, then obviously
that's a different differentsubject matter, really.
So if we're looking at arelationship that has just
broken down, you've perhaps beentogether for a while, you've
(04:03):
got children, uh, but it's justnot working.
I would say if you can try andgo and see a good relationship
therapist or couples therapist,because that can be the start of
many different journeys.
You know, it can be one way youcan go and discuss where you
(04:24):
are right now, how you gotthere, and whether you want to
do something about it.
Now, you may feel that you'vealready explored all of those
options, but sometimes justsitting with somebody who isn't
part of your uh couple can bereally helpful.
Um, you know, we can talk aboutall different sorts of uh
things that you might not havethought about because some
(04:47):
sometimes couples actuallythey're just stuck and they
they, you know, with a fewtweaks, but like going to the
dentist every six months, youknow, if people saw a
relationship therapist once oncea year, even in their
relationship life as a couple,as a preventative, as a checkup,
you know, this this is workingreally well, excuse me, but
(05:10):
we're arguing a lot, or thiskeeps coming up, you can work on
that and help help to resolveit.
Now, for some couples, theycome, we have those
conversations and they decide toend their relationship.
And so then it's about okay,what comes next, particularly if
you have children?
And it's interesting becausecohabiting couples are starting
(05:33):
to outnumber married couples.
So we have to bear that in mindwhen we're talking about
relationship breakdown, becausethere is still a myth that there
is common law marriage andthere isn't.
And although there's a lot ofwork to change cohabitation law
at the moment, there's nothingto protect you.
So important conversations needto happen once you've decided
(05:57):
to move your separate ways.
Tamsin Caine (05:58):
Absolutely.
Um, just before we move on toother questions, what if you're
in this position and yourpartner or spouse, because we'll
talk about cohabitating couplesas well as married couples, if
your spouse is just not preparedto come to a relationship
(06:20):
therapist, they're just theydon't believe in it or don't
feel it's gonna help, or it'sjust not it's not for them, and
they're they're absolutelyadamant they're not gonna not
gonna come and see you.
What can be done?
Because that is to me that thatmakes sense, that's the first
step you would take.
But if somebody's reallyputting the blockers up, what
(06:45):
can you do?
Adele Ballantyne (06:46):
I think you can still come yourself because
you can learn a lot.
Quite often couples will talkabout they need to change,
somebody needs to change, butexcuse me, we can't change
anybody if they don't want to,and so, but we can change
ourselves, and sometimes theimpact of changing ourselves has
a direct result on the personthat we're living with.
(07:08):
Secondly, I would say, and Ihave said this on many
occasions, you know,relationship therapists, couples
counselors, we're not here tokeep you together.
When that's not our job, ourjob is to help you decide what
you need to do based on whereyou are right now.
And so many people think, well,if you go and see a
(07:33):
relationship therapist, thenwell, I don't want to stay
together, so why would I go?
It's not just about that.
Also, I think depending on howa therapist practice, and I
always see each coupleindividually for a first
session, and then if it's safeto do so, I'll see them
together.
And so that hour with somebodywho perhaps has been trying to
(07:57):
tell a partner something andthey're not listening, or
perhaps you know, they feel likethey're just being criticized
all the time, so they've shutdown.
Actually, that hour reallygives people an opportunity to
talk about their relationshipthrough their own lens, through
from where they're sitting.
And and I've had partners whosaid, Oh, I you know, I thought
(08:22):
I was being dragged here to keepthis together.
You're telling me you're notgonna make us stay together.
And I'm like, it's I can't makeyou do anything, you know, and
that's not my job.
Um, I also say to reluctantpeople, it's an hour out of your
life.
If it if you find that it's nogood, you don't have to come
again.
It's not compulsory.
(08:42):
Um, but I would always urge youif you're if you're interested
in understanding relationships abit more and your own
relationship, then just justcome and see somebody and talk
it through.
They may offer uh informationthat you haven't thought about.
Uh, and it also can perhapsgive you some top tips and
(09:02):
strategies for beginning theconversations that you need with
a reluctant partner, and that'sreally vital.
Tamsin Caine (09:09):
Absolutely.
And I guess the other thing isthat it can help, even if this
one you've you've you do decideto separate, it can help future
relationships as well tounderstand yourself a little bit
better, can't it?
Adele Ballantyne (09:23):
It can, it can, and it's always helpful
learning a bit about yourself asyou go through life.
We are evolutionary uhcreatures, aren't we?
And you know, we're verydifferent in in at different
points, different decades of ourlives.
We we change, we evolve basedon the experiences we have, the
relationships that we have.
(09:44):
And it could be that it mightbe something that that we're
doing that is is causingrelationships not to work out,
and sometimes just taking timeto reflect.
It's a bit like you know, NewYear's Eve, isn't it?
Everybody's taught to, youknow, think about what's your
new year's resolution, what doyou want to have for the next
year?
Well, you can't do that unlessyou take time out to think about
(10:07):
what's okay in your life,what's not okay, what needs to
be different.
And that's what talking tosomebody like me will help you
with.
Tamsin Caine (10:16):
Yeah, no, I love that.
Let's move on to you havedecided to you've well, you've
either decided yourself ortogether, or it's been decided
for you, so your other partneris leaving.
Uh then what what things dopeople need to be thinking
about?
What are the steps that theyneed to be taking first?
Adele Ballantyne (10:40):
I think the first thing is don't panic,
don't rush.
You don't have to have this alldecided within the next few
weeks.
Because once you've decidedthat the relationship's over in
whatever way that is, you know,you are you are grieving, you
are pushed into the grief cycle.
And so you'll be all over theplace, ups and downs.
(11:02):
Now it's usual in couples thatone person has decided a good 18
months, two years that they'renot okay, and it's been a
gradual move towards having thatconversation.
So they're going to be at adifferent stage of the grieving
process to the person who's justheard it.
So give them time, let itsettle in.
You might have got to thatpoint of acceptance where you
(11:25):
need to move on, but they're oncatch-up.
So they need time, they need tolet it sink in, they're going
to be angry, upset, volatile, oryou know, mixed with depressed
and sad.
And so let them adjust, givethem adjustment time.
I think the next stage fromthat is to get some information,
(11:48):
particularly if you havechildren.
Information is graduallyincreasing in the UK.
Um, it used to be quite hard tofind.
Um, I would recommendeverybody, if they can go to the
resolution website and downloada copy of the Parenting Through
Separation Guide.
It's a short uh booklet thatwill really, really help you.
(12:11):
It covers all the different uhareas that are going to be
coming up in the future.
So get some information.
Perhaps do a parent program.
Um, that again will give youlots of information.
And there are quite a few nowin the country, and there will
be a directory coming up in thenot too distant future.
(12:33):
Um, and I would recommendcertainly that you go um and do
a parent program.
It will put you in touch withother people who are about to go
on this journey or who arealready a bit further down the
line.
It stops you from feelingalone, it helps you to
understand importantly whatyou're going to need, but more
(12:56):
importantly, what your childrenare going to need, because it's
our behavior as adults that canreally mess up our kids.
And we've got to really becareful about how we keep the
adult relationship breakdownjourney separate from what will
become hopefully a goodco-parent uh journey.
(13:19):
And so, courses parent programswill really help you with that.
So I would say that's the firststep.
Don't panic and get lots ofinformation.
Tamsin Caine (13:30):
I like the idea of taking time because I think one
of the things that I certainlysee is a rush to contact a
lawyer to get a decision abouthow you're going to divide
everything.
And in those first few weeksand months, you're not in a
position where you should bemaking decisions that impact the
(13:52):
whole of the rest of your life.
And taking time to be in asgood an emotional space and
state as possible is worth itsweight in gold to make sure that
you're making the bestdecisions later as well.
So I think that's um I thinkthat's excellent advice.
And the the parenting plans andso on, fantastic advice too.
(14:14):
How would somebody go aboutgetting their heads into the
best place possible to be inthat good enough in that
emotional state to be makingthese decisions about children,
about money, about where they'regoing to live, all those sorts
of things that that need to bedecided?
Adele Ballantyne (14:35):
I think for me, the next step then is the
support team that you createaround you.
And that's that's that's alldifferent kinds of people that
can help you.
So certainly coming to talk tosomebody like me who work in
under this um in thisenvironment.
I I call myself a familyconsultant.
Um, we work with legalprofessionals to help clients
(14:59):
come through this.
So find a family consultant,find a co-parent coach.
There's some really goodco-parent coach, Marcy Schauel
and her fantastic co-parentingmethod.
Absolutely helpful.
It will just give you someinformation.
I think we are really tryingnow to stop people from going to
(15:23):
court because family court isno place for families that
aren't abusive, really.
They they families need to keepout of out of court.
So think about what sort of uhlegal professional you want to
work with.
In the rottweiler days of I'llsee you in court, you know, I'm
(15:43):
taking you for everything you'vegot.
We're moving away from that nowbecause the people who suffer
are you as an individual andyour kids.
So find a kind lawyer, findsomebody who has a good approach
who will calm any any bigemotional situations, not fan
(16:07):
the flames and make it worse.
Choose, find out, get someinformation about what kind of
legal process you want.
Do you want to do it online?
I wouldn't necessarilyrecommend that in itself,
because I think lots of us needlegal advice.
So, but there are differentways now.
So, do you want to go and seeone lawyer?
(16:30):
Because you can do that now.
One one lawyer for both of you,and you go together.
Do you want to go and see amediator?
Have some really good work withthem.
There's a voucher scheme now,so you get some money off.
Then when you've gone throughmediation, go and see a lawyer.
And that one lawyer will beable to then put that into the
(16:53):
legal speak that it needs to gointo, the legal bit, and then
you're done.
Do you want a collaborativelawyer?
Would you feel more confidenthaving your own representation?
Brilliant.
Choose collaborative divorce.
Each of you have a lawyer.
You agree and sign a documentto say you don't want to go to
(17:15):
court, and then you sit round atable.
But you don't just sit round atable with two lawyers.
You sit around a table withsomebody like me and somebody
like you tums in because there'sfinances to think about as
well.
But the conversations you haveare around a table in person.
And the only letters that youwill get from your lawyer are
(17:38):
those confirming what was agreedin the meetings.
It's a great, it's a great wayto go through the divorce
process.
And if there are elements thatyou can't agree on, then in
collaborative process, you canget an arbitrator in.
Arbitration is like going tocourt, but not going to court.
You get a legal professionalwho is just focused on that,
(18:01):
those issues that you can'tagree on.
And then they make a judgment,like a judge would.
Try not to think about that onan angry day, because there will
be days where you are angry.
Try and think of it on an onanother day.
(18:24):
But think about the sort ofdivorce you want.
Think about who you need inyour support team.
So you've got a familyconsultant, you've got your
divorce lawyer in whatever waythat looks.
And think about who you want tosupport you, family and
friends.
Again, pick somebody who knowsyou well and who isn't just
(18:45):
going to go with the flow ofwhat you're thinking and
feeling.
Yes, you want the support, butyou don't want somebody saying,
Yeah, do this, do that.
You know, let's take them down.
Actually, you want somebody tosay, hey Tamsin, you're on an
angry day, or hey Tamsin, I hearwhat you're saying, and
obviously it's that's reallyupsetting.
(19:06):
And as your friend, God, that'sterrible.
I'm really sorry.
Let's reflect on this thoughand think about it tomorrow,
because making that decisionmight not be good for your kids,
might not be good for you.
So family will always want tobe in your corner, they'll
always want to protect you,particularly parents if you have
(19:28):
them.
Um again, you want a parent whois going to calm things down.
And sometimes that's having aconversation with those people
and saying, look, when I'm goingoff on one and I'm being really
unreasonable, what I need youto do is talk me down.
You'll learn things like thaton parent programs, you'll learn
(19:51):
techniques like that when youcome and see somebody like me.
So build a support team.
So in stages, we're looking atnot panicking and getting
information.
We're looking at, you know,doing a parent, parent program,
like a spear poor.
I do one first aid first stepsfor parents, and then we build
(20:12):
that support team.
So you've got a series ofsteps, if you like, that you can
follow.
Tamsin Caine (20:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
That's great advice.
In terms of of things that youcan do for yourself to keep your
to put yourself in a goodspace, is there anything you
would recommend when you it'svery difficult to take that time
and not do anything?
Is there is there anything thatthat you would recommend that
(20:40):
people are doing?
Because there's this need to dosomething, isn't there, when
something happens to you?
Is there anything that youwould recommend people
personally do?
I don't know, meditation or Idon't know, anything like that
to get them in the in a reallygood space?
Adele Ballantyne (20:55):
Yeah, self-care, next step, really,
because lots of people say tome, Oh, I've lost so much weight
since I've been on the sinceour my relationship has broken
down.
Call it the D diet, don't know,the divorce diet.
And and that's because whenwe're grieving, our bodies
produce lots of chemicals, youknow, and we're in this time of
(21:15):
stress, and we either sleep toomuch or not enough, we either
eat too much or not enough.
It really messes with us.
We've got thoughts whizzingaround our heads, you know.
We've this isn't also a threatto us.
So we are in that freeze,fight, flight, fawn mode, and
and that of course can affectour day-to-day thinking, our
(21:38):
day-to-day functioning.
So get a routine to together sothat you've got some time to
care for yourself and have abuddy who will say, have you,
you know, have you eaten today?
Have you had some meditativetime?
Maybe some, we talk about thisa lot, don't we?
(21:58):
Lots of breathing, lots ofmindfulness.
And it sounds quite, I don'tknow, it sounds like, oh yeah,
we do that anyway, don't we?
We breathe all the time.
But taking time out, and itdoesn't need to be a lot, we're
all busy, but you know, in themorning, if you're making a cup
of tea, just go and standoutside and breathe some fresh
(22:19):
air while the kettle's boiling.
Literally, you know, the thesethings uh that you can do.
Take some time to eat well,because when we're stressed, we
tend to just grab and go.
And sometimes what we grab isnot necessarily healthy.
So it doesn't have to be umcomplicated, you know, if you're
(22:41):
if you're not a vegan or on adiet, you know, boiled egg, a
half-boiled egg, keep some inyour fridge.
It's protein, it'll give yousome energy.
Make sure you're drinkingplenty, water, tea, coffee,
whatever it is.
Not wine, not wine.
What I mean, an occasionalglass of wine or a night out
with your friends, that can bereally helpful.
(23:04):
A good, good laugh with yourfriends when there's not much to
laugh at at the moment.
Really helpful, you know, andsupport your children while
they're going through this aswell.
There are some great resourcesfor kids out there now.
Particular book, the um, oh, Ialways forget what it's called.
It's like the split survivalguide for for kids, and Harold
(23:24):
Rudkin.
Amazing book for kids becauseit helps them understand what
you're going through and willgive them a bit of
encouragement, reassure themtheir world's been turned upside
down, but not in the same waythat your world's been turned
upside down.
Because for them, they'relooking at it that you're their
mum and dad, not that you're,you know, Frida and Barry and
(23:48):
your two adults who've who'vefallen out.
They're not looking at it likethat.
You're mum and dad, and you aretheir world.
And so they need somereassurance.
So, so I think self-care forthem, make sure that your kids
are okay too.
It's all right if they see youcrying, that's all right.
Parents worry about that.
(24:08):
It gives them permission to cryif they see you doing it,
because this is a sad time.
Lots of changes happening.
So pace yourself, look afteryourself and your children.
And you know, that willcertainly help on this journey.
Tamsin Caine (24:25):
That's really good advice.
I was gonna uh something cameup for me whilst you were
talking around help.
I I don't know if everybody'slike this, but when I was going
through my divorce, I reallystruggled to accept help that
people were offering, and itmight be can I look after the
kids for a couple of hours foryou?
(24:45):
And I was in this space oftrying to be superwoman and hold
down a full-time job.
And I mean, I did it a reallyridiculous time.
I was doing a master's as well.
So I was holding out afull-time job, going through a
master's, trying to bring up twokids, and all of this was going
(25:06):
on for me, and people wereoffering help, and I'm not very
good at accepting it, but weshould accept help, shouldn't
we?
Adele Ballantyne (25:14):
Yeah, yeah.
It's this is as big.
This is this in terms of lifeevents.
Death is a is a huge stresslife event.
The second is divorce,separation.
And so, you know, what would wedo if somebody we knew had lost
a loved one through death?
We'd be there, we would beoffering support.
(25:36):
We're not an island, receivingsupport is not a weakness, it's
a strength, it's showingvulnerability and being
vulnerable with people issomething we need to get better
at.
And I hold my hand up as well.
I'm terrible for acceptinghelp.
(25:56):
However, once you get into thehabit of it and start saying yes
instead of no, actually it getsa lot easier.
And also it's about the type ofhelp.
So ask for what you need.
Sometimes we're not very goodat that.
So, particularly if parents aresaying, Oh, and I'll do this
(26:17):
and I'll do that.
If that's not going to behelpful to you, you're going to
refuse it.
So ask for what you need.
That's lovely.
Thanks for offering to do that,Dad.
But actually, this would bemore helpful to me right now, or
even preempt it.
Sit and think about, well,what's the week ahead looking
like?
What am I going to need helpwith?
And then asking, you know,because people want to help you.
(26:41):
So ask for what you need ratherthan be, you know, overwhelmed
by offers of things thatactually you don't need help
with, but do ask for help.
Tamsin Caine (26:52):
And I think people, people who are offering
their help genuinely want tohelp, and they're not offering
it out of sympathy or whatever,they get something back from
being able to be there for youand to help you, don't they?
Adele Ballantyne (27:07):
Yeah, they do.
They do.
And and yeah, it it gives you afeel good, and and you you
would hope, wouldn't you, thatif if then anything happened
with you, that it would bereciprocated.
I think one thing that oftenstands out with what clients
tell me is that in theirfriendship group, they've been
(27:29):
really surprised by people'sreactions to when they tell them
that they are separating.
And some people who you thinkhave got your back haven't.
And they've been reallysurprised that people they
thought they were good friendswith have disappeared from their
social circle.
(27:50):
Be prepared for that because wedon't expect that.
We think that the people thatwe're uh socializing with, have
made friendships with, you know,are authentic and sometimes
they're not, or sometimes theyjust can't cope with what's
happening.
Maybe they've had a traumaticchildhood where their parents
(28:10):
had separated and it's too tootriggering for them to be around
you.
Sometimes they might choose tobe friends with your ex rather
than you, and you might bereally surprised by that.
Yeah.
I think it's just important topoint that out because you know,
we I hear it a lot.
Yeah, so it does happen.
Tamsin Caine (28:32):
It absolutely does.
And sometimes the people whostep up and who are there for it
for you are absolutely not thepeople you expect to be the ones
to support you.
But um yeah, absolutely beprepared for that, but also
accept accept help if it'suseful from those who are
offering it.
I just want to touch verybriefly because we mentioned at
(28:54):
the minute at the beginning thatwe weren't, we weren't the
advice that you've just givenwasn't around toxic coercive
relationships where there'swhere there's abuse.
And I work a lot with withpeople who are leaving abusive
relationships, and and I knowyou do as well.
The this is very different, andI just want to touch briefly on
(29:17):
on how you might approach thatin in a different way, and also
because I feel that quite a lotof my clients don't necessarily
realise they were in an abusiverelationship until it comes to
an end, and then they startlooking back and they think, oh
yeah, no, that that wasn'tright.
(29:39):
There's always been this flowof things.
What would you suggest topeople who are in that position?
Adele Ballantyne (29:45):
I think the first thing to say is we we are
currently living in a worldwhere everybody is a narcissist,
everybody is abusive, everybodyis controlling.
We're not.
There are there are dangerousand unhealthy relationships out
there, absolutely.
Absolutely.
So we have to think aboutsafety first and foremost.
So is this relationship as safeas it can be right now?
(30:11):
Or do we have to take immediateaction so that everybody is
safe?
So always from a point of viewof safety.
I think understanding, andcertainly when I meet somebody,
if they say, oh, they'recontrolling that they're
narcissistic.
I'm a psychotherapist, I'm nota psychologist or a
(30:32):
psychiatrist.
They are the only people whocan diagnose narcissistic
personality disorder.
Do we show narcissistic traitswhen we're under emotional
pressure?
Absolutely we do.
And it can make us into verynasty people.
Does it mean we've beencontrolling coercive all our
relationship life?
Not necessarily.
So we have to be cautious.
(30:53):
We have to be cautious.
It's one thing to say, oh mypartner's controlling with
finances.
If you just take that as thatstatement is delivered to you
and you run with that, you'veonly got a very limited amount
of information.
We don't have any informationthat says, yes, they are
(31:14):
controlling.
They they watch everything thatI spend.
I have no access to money.
I've got no credit cards, no,no debit cards.
I've given this amount of moneyand I have to manage with it.
Um, I had a client once whosehusband used to go through the
bin to make sure she hadn'tthrown anything away because she
once threw a moldy crust away,and he was furious about that.
(31:36):
So we have to think about whatrelationships look like.
It could be they've talked toyou about finance and their
partners not giving them accessto some money because maybe that
person has run up debt and theythey don't want to be in any
more debt.
We don't know, do we?
And in in relationships, somecouples never really talk about
(32:00):
how to handle the finance.
One usually doesn't likeanything to do with it, and one
usually does.
So if you're the one who said,Well, shall I do the finances in
happy times?
And you've gone, yeah, yeah,because I hate, I hate all of
that.
You do all the bills and allthe um roll that forward 10
years.
(32:20):
Well, I've never had anythingto do with finance that he he,
she has been really controlling.
You've got to find out moreinformation.
So if it is a really dangerousrelationship, an abusive
situation, a controlling andcoercive one, then we've got to
think about an exit strategythat is the safest for you.
(32:41):
And it's a it's a long topic totalk about, but I work from
place of safety first andforemost.
Um, and usually when you'rewanting to leave an abusive
relationship, if it's not onewhere you have to leave
immediately and seek sheltersomewhere, then it's about
planning, planning an exitstrategy where you're going to
(33:02):
be supported and safe.
Tamsin Caine (33:05):
Absolutely.
And a couple of places tocontact, just because we're not
going to go into detail in intoday's podcast, but there are
other podcasts where we do gointo much more detail.
But places to contact women'said, refuge, your local domestic
abuse services, please.
If you're if you believe thatthere's any chance your phone or
laptop might be being tracked,please do it from a friend's
(33:27):
phone or laptop so that you'renot putting yourself in further
danger.
And those services, thosecharities will help you to plan
an exit strategy, or if it'surgent and you're not safe, they
will try and find you someaccommodation.
So please do contact thosecharities if you if you believe
that's your situation.
We're coming to the end of ourtime.
(33:49):
As I said at the beginning, Iknew we would be able to talk
about this topic for hours onend.
Is there anything that you wantto add to what we've said today
or anything that I should haveasked you?
Adele Ballantyne (33:59):
I don't think so.
I think just take your time.
I know it feels desperate, Iknow it feels immediate, but get
some information.
Learn as much as you can.
You know, if you are in asituation where you can share
that information with your umsoon-to-be ex-partner, do and
make sure you you're learningabout this journey together,
(34:23):
particularly if you havechildren, because they're going
to need you.
And as responsible parents, youknow, it is about stepping into
parenting shoes rather thanadult shoes when you're making
decisions about them for yourchildren.
That's really hard to masterwhen you're going through these
(34:45):
emotional early stages ofseparation.
So you have got time.
Marcy always says this is amarathon, not a sprint.
And long after you finishedwith the divorce lawyers, your
life goes on as co-parents.
So learn about whatco-parenting is.
Learn about what informationyou need to share and what you
(35:07):
don't.
You might not want your ex inyour life anymore, but your kids
will.
So, how do you enable them tohave that loving, free
relationship with the otherparent when you're feeling the
way that you do?
Tamsin Caine (35:22):
Yeah, that's brilliant advice.
And and you're absolutelyright.
You know, I'm 10 years divorcedand I'm still, my kids are 20
and 21, and we're stillco-parenting them.
You know, they still, theystill need you long after you
perhaps think that that won't bethe case.
And and there are still thingsand issues that that I need to
(35:43):
speak to my fellow co-parentabout and make sure that we we
form a united front.
So that's um that's really goodadvice.
Adele, as always, thank you somuch for joining me today.
Um that was wonderful to speakto you.
Um, and we will include Adele'sdetails in the show notes
should you want to get in touchwith her or need her assistance
(36:05):
if you are in any of thepositions that we've discussed
today.
Also, Adele mentioned Marcy, umMarcy Shoel.
She you can find an episodethat we recorded with her when
she released her book, I thinkonly a couple of months ago.
So please do look back for thatepisode because you'll find it
very useful if you want to hearall about co-parenting um and
(36:26):
her book and various coursesthat she offers.
Thank you for joining me.
Thank you, Adele, for joiningme, and we'll be back very soon.
Adele Ballantyne (36:34):
Many thanks.
Thanks, Tamsin.
Tamsin Caine (36:41):
Hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the
Smart Divorce Podcast.
If you would like to get intouch, please have a look in the
show notes for our details orgo onto the website
www.smartdivorce.co.uk.
Also, if you are listening onApple Podcasts or on Spotify and
you wouldn't mind leaving us alovely five-star review, that
(37:04):
would be fantastic.
I know that lots of ourlisteners are finding this
incredibly helpful in theirjourney through separation,
divorce and dissolving a civilpartnership.
Also, if you would like somefurther support, we do have a
Facebook group now.
It's called Separation, Divorceand Dissolution UK.
(37:27):
Please do go on to Facebook,search up the group, and we'd be
delighted to have you join us.
The one thing I would say is doplease answer their membership
questions.
Okay, have a great day and takecare.
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