October 21, 2023 • 31 mins
Who says that the key to successful school leadership lies solely in the hands of the principal? This episode is about to challenge that notion. We're turning the spotlight on the power of decentralizing leadership in schools and the remarkable difference it can make. Over-centralization can lead to slow decision-making processes, burnout, and exhaustion. We dare to imagine a different, more balanced approach to leadership, one that empowers assistant principals to take charge and contribute to the success of their schools.
This episode is a must for those who believe in shared responsibilities and the potential of every team member to lead. By empowering assistant principals and distributing responsibilities, we create room for deeper conversations and strategic thinking. We discuss how investing time in developing these leaders can create a more responsive, dynamic, and inclusive leadership structure. Our journey explores the ongoing process of decentralizing leadership and the rewards that come with it.
But we don't stop there. We underline the significance of continuous learning and growth, using personal experiences to illustrate the point. The power of learning from others and how it can be used to grow and become better leaders is a key takeaway from this conversation. We believe in reaching out and asking for help, and we encourage all educators to do the same. From empowering assistant principals to fostering a culture of continuous learning, this conversation is set to redefine what effective leadership in schools looks like. Tune in, and let's reimagine leadership together.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
The other day I sat in my office and I was exhausted
.
I was asking myself why doesthis feel different?
My body hurt, my mind hurt.
I was running on E and the softvoice whispered to me and said
(00:29):
because you're doing everything,because you're doing everything
In this episode of the SneakPrinciple Podcast, we're going
to talk about decentralizingleadership in your school.
Let's go ahead and start.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
When they see me, they know that every day, when
I'm breathing, it's for us to gofarther.
Every time I speak, I want thetruth to come out.
Every time I speak, I want toshiver.
I don't want them to be like.
They know what I'm going to say, because it's polite.
They know what I'm going to sayand even if I get in trouble,
you know what I'm saying.
Ain't that what we're supposedto do?
I'm not saying I'm going torule the world or I'm going to
(01:06):
change the world, but Iguarantee that I will spark the
brain that will change the world, and that's our job.
It's to spark somebody elsewatching us.
We might not be the ones, butlet's not be selfish.
And because we're not going tochange the world, let's not talk
about how we should change it.
I don't know how to change it,but I know.
If I keep talking about howdirty it is out here, somebody
going to clean it up.
(01:26):
And now he's been promoted.
His job is principle.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
What's going on everyone.
This is chain Joku snickerprinciple, and in this episode
we're going to talk aboutsomething that is essential and
I'll be honest with you, it'ssomething that a lot of school
leaders struggle with, even thegreat ones.
But, however, those who areextremely successful have
(02:01):
mastered this and I've made apart of their philosophy in
leadership, and this is nothingnew, this is nothing that's
revolutionary, but, however,it's something that's essential
and I'm doing my best, movingforward, to utilize my notes so
(02:24):
I'm not just running off the topof my head and repeating myself
.
So these centralize in schoolleadership, and what I mean by
this is you have a school, youhave the principle, and a
typical structure of thatleadership hierarchy is you have
(02:49):
the principle that one personand they kind of oversee
everything, and maybe you mighthave an assistant principle or a
few of them and they now assistyou in overseeing everything.
And the problem with that is,if you are a new leader or
(03:12):
you're a leader who is a littleOCD, excuse me, or a lot OCD,
you have to know everythingthat's happening.
And by you knowing everythingthat's happening which you
should know, everything that'shappening I'm not saying that
you should be ignorant aboutwhat's happening in school or in
any capacity.
But if it is your voice that'sconsistently in all these spaces
(03:33):
the guidance counselors,special education, parental
outreach, what's happening inthe cafeteria, as far as the
meals for the week or the day,all these different places, the
custodial staff what happens isall those people now rely on you
(03:55):
to be the voice that they willlisten to.
Some of you might disagree withthis.
This is just right with me onthis.
Maybe it's just my experience,but if you're a school leader,
have you ever had this kind ofday?
You're driving to work, you'regoing through all the things you
(04:15):
need to do that day.
If you are those of you who arebetter than that and spend the
night before, you take yournotes and you do your to-do list
, you have those things andyou're like OK, these are the
things that have to be done.
So you plan it out.
You walk into the building andyou say, ok, I'm going to walk
in, I'm going to do morningarrivals, then from there, I'm
(04:38):
going to grab my notebook, I'mgoing to go to my first
observation.
After my first observation, I'mgoing to do two or three more
observations.
Then from there, I'm going totake a district call I'm going
to do this and that andeverything is scheduled.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
However, that's not what happens.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
You walk in and you have a parent who's waiting to
see you.
And now that situation could bea big thing or a small thing,
but no matter what, it knocksyou off your schedule, but you
must handle that.
Then, after that, you havesomebody from the city guidance
team that says hey, we got thiscall from ACS.
(05:15):
Blah, blah, blah.
What do you want us to do?
And for those of you who don'tknow what ACS is, is our version
of Child Protective Services.
And you're like OK, this is animportant matter, so let me jump
in support with that.
Then you have a teacher who'snow upset because X, y, z
happened and you need to addressthis because it's probably a
(05:37):
step around.
So you're doing that.
Before you know it, it's 2o'clock and you're sitting there
like what just happened.
My whole entire day went by me.
And it's even worse when a lotof these things are being
brought to you by yourleadership team.
So your teacher leaders, yourassistant principals, they're
bringing all these things to youand no one is taking the
(05:57):
initiative to make a decision.
They will not move until yousay, until you, the individuals
say this is what should be done.
But when you look back, you'relike wait a minute.
They know what should be done.
We've been working together foryears.
They're experts at what they do.
But, however, becauseleadership is centralized, with
(06:19):
you being the tip of the sword,no one moves until unless you
move, which now happens tocreate a situation where nothing
really moves, or, if things aremoving, they're moving really,
really slowly, because it's anextra step before decisions are
made, and that extra step is you.
(06:40):
And again, yes, there arecertain things that you have to
make that decision hence down,without a doubt.
But, however, let's say, forexample, you walk in and that
parent who shows up, maybe yourschool could have had a
structure that, when they comein, depending on what the issue
is, if there's something to dowith the sentence and the
(07:00):
instruction, maybe your systemprinciple of instruction is the
one who's meeting with them todeal with that situation.
If there's something to do with, maybe, a guidance issue, maybe
that child's guidance helps theperson who's meeting with that
parent Rather than the parentcoming to you then you're now
saying, okay, I heard you, letme bring someone so into support
you in this, but this is theperson who's handling that.
(07:21):
You know what I'm saying.
So you have the extra step,because now this is explained to
you.
You gotta go find anotherperson and it's explained to
them that you do a handoff andyou know you've lost 20, 30, 45
minutes, and it just happens allthroughout the day.
And I know there's this beliefthat leadership is ever being
(07:42):
ever present in every situation,but it's not effective
leadership.
You know, there's this thingcalled distributive leadership,
and that's what I'm saying, wheneverything is centralized
rather than being decentralized,meaning that there's other
people in it that you've beenempowered to, have been trained
and then know what to do, andthey also know when the matter
(08:03):
is of such urgency or of suchimportance that you have to be
involved.
And that's something that canbe established relatively easily
, like, hey, if it's this issues, call me into those meetings,
or if it's something whereyou're stuck on.
And this is the principlewhoever cannot support you, they
(08:24):
bring me in, but I'm poweringpeople to do their jobs, and
this is what I'm talking abouthere.
So I just laid the groundworkfor this conversation or this
podcast episode, excuse me.
So now let's talk about thepower of empowered assistant
(08:48):
principles.
So assistant principles play acrucial role in the school
success.
There's no doubt about that,however often I was the
assistant principal and I canattest to this they find
themselves stuck in disciplinaryroles, handling operational
(09:08):
tasks with very little room forstrategic input.
They are literally the school'sbutler, the school's, the
principal's goon.
They don't move unless theprincipal says move, and I feel
like that is such a waste oftalent and capacity.
(09:32):
There's a reason the role iscalled assistant principal,
because the training theprincipal went through to become
a principal is the exact sametraining that an assistant
principal goes through to becomean assistant principal.
So, with that being said, whynot create a situation where, as
(09:55):
a principal, you're empoweringyour APs to be part of you?
So I've told my principal and,I'm sorry, my assistant
principal, that we are atwo-headed, four-armed,
four-legged principal.
He has the authority to act onmy behalf on pretty much
(10:20):
everything, and we're able to dothat because he and I are in
constant dialogue.
If it's me driving andsomething about to my head to
give him a call, hey, I wasthinking about this.
What do you think about this?
I make very few decisionswithout him being part of the
conversation and him havinginput in that decision-making
(10:43):
process.
And yes, there's certain thingswhere there's no question I
have to make a decision, I haveto make that executive decision.
But even when I make thoseexecutive decisions, I try my
best to loop him in before Ipush the button and say the
decision has been made.
Or if it was a situation whereI had no choice to make that
decision immediately, then he'scopying those emails.
(11:04):
I have a conversation, hey,just let you know.
This is what happened and thisis what happened.
And I just want you to makesure you're in the loop, because
if I'm not here, you knowwhat's going on.
And again, that's how youempower principals.
I'm sorry, that's how youempower and assist the
principals and by doing that,the pressure is off your back by
tons.
Because now listen, if you'retrying to carry the whole world
(11:26):
by yourself, that's a lot, butif you got two of you sharing
that load, it becomes mucheasier.
Your capacity for thinking anddoing those other things becomes
so much easier.
Those of you who know mepersonally and I say this all
(11:50):
the time I was fortunate enoughearly in my career to have
principals, actually twoprincipals back to back, who
empowered me when I first becamea dean Scott, who was my first
principal.
He was like as long as nosurprises.
You know, rock on as long asyou're following the
(12:14):
chancellor's regulations and therules and everything else, rock
on.
If you're stuck in somethingthat you're not clear about, you
know, let me know.
If you're making a mistake,it's okay, because it's better
to fix a mistake than to make nomovement.
And then we have a disaster.
And I was like, okay, andbecause I was given that leeway,
(12:37):
you know I didn't just go outand beast, I was very thoughtful
while I was doing because Iknew I was representing my
principal.
I knew that whatever I said,whatever I did, had a direct
connection to the function ofthe school under his leadership.
I was his mouthpiece.
I was moving within the samesteps of vision of the mission
and vision of the schoolaccording to my principal and
(13:01):
the only.
By doing what I did, I took offa huge load office plate.
You know I was.
I was handling school culture,the discipline, supporting
teachers with classroommanagement so he can do the
stuff he needs to do aroundinstruction.
You know, before I got there hewas doing everything himself.
You know he empowered me to be,you know, his right-hand man in
(13:24):
that space.
Then my second principal whotook this and took this and took
what Scott did and put onsteroids.
John said listen, you're goingto come and be my dean.
A year later he was like Ithink you have the makings of a
school leader, so I'm going toopen the vaults and you're going
(13:48):
to be part of my leadership,like, truly my leadership, so
you're going to run.
It's funny because at the timeI thought, man, this is a lot,
but he gave me the ability to bewho I am today.
I was, I was the dean,eventually became assistant
principal, I was running themath department, I was special
education coordinator, I ran thescience department and I was
(14:08):
doing all these different things.
But then eventually I wassupporting the parent
coordinator in her work, youknow, and it was like he was
like here are the things I'mtraining you how to do, you know
again.
But it was funny.
He had the same expectationthat Scott did no surprises,
we're talking, we're engaging,we're having conversations, and
(14:30):
and so he was always aware ofthat.
But, however, I cleared a hugeportion of the load for him so
he can do the school buildingthings, the community outreach
to bring the resources in.
You know and it was funnybecause you know, joking back
then a lot of parents thought Iwas the principal, you know and
(14:52):
it's funny because some people,some people will hear that but,
like you know, he wasn't doingit.
No, he was doing a lot and,however, he empowered me to be
able to support him in his, inhis work, and that was my
training ground towards becominga principal.
When I became a principal, therewas literally very, very little
that rattled me because I waslike, I've already been in that
(15:15):
space.
I've been part of this deeperconversations, I've been part of
those, those decisions makingprocesses that move the school
forward.
Because, you know, I wasallowed to be part of a
two-headed or, in thatparticular case with John, a
three-headed, six-armed,six-legged principle.
It was myself and another greatschool leader, max.
(15:38):
So we were the three of ustogether and, again, my
principles were my principle.
That didn't change.
He was the head, but we wereextensions of him.
So think about that.
It's very important.
Some of you might say, well, mysystem was young or they're weak
(15:59):
or all excuses, but the thingis this people don't move until
they're moved.
You have to redistributeresponsibilities, empower your
APs or your vice principles andalso exercise discretion.
(16:20):
Maybe there's certain thingsthat you know without a doubt.
If this is messed up, this istruly on me.
I have to be the one.
But what about all the otherthings that literally come on
now?
Does the cafeteria lady or aman have to come to you with
everything?
Can that be sent to your systemprinciple?
Who can now make decisions orcome to you at a little point so
(16:42):
you can get through your day?
Are there certain things thatcan be handled by certain people
who already have expertise inthose areas, so that all they
have to do is inform you ofwhat's happening and what
they're doing and you can givethem feedback and let them keep
moving, so you have the spaceand time to do that?
(17:06):
I mean, these are the thingsthat a lot of us school leaders
are dropping the ball on.
They're overwhelmed, they wereburnt out and it's because we're
doing everything.
And I think a lot of it has todo with my last episode, when I
talked about fear.
We're afraid of letting go.
We're afraid that if things getmessed up, I'd rather have it.
(17:27):
I'd rather would if it hadn'tbeen my fault than somebody
messin' it up.
But if you're breaking down andthings are still getting messed
up because you're overwhelmed,then what's the point?
And now the next tier ofdistributive leadership, as far
as who you can distribute to areyour teacher leaders.
(17:50):
Again, my foray into leadershipstarted with me as a teacher.
I was a teacher and Scott said,hey, you're gonna be my dean.
And a dean is a pedagogicalrole.
It's not an administrative role.
It's just quasi-administrativebecause, yes, the work and the
paperwork and everything has tobe done.
It's very administrative but,however, the dean is really a
(18:14):
teacher and it's really ateacher leader.
So when you have teacherleaders and they're not just
deans you have teacher leaderswho might be team leads or
instructional coaches orwhatever the case may be, seeing
what their expertise I, forexample, being a specializing
coordinator parents would comein with questions about special
education or whatever the casemay be, and I would step into
(18:37):
that role.
I was an expert, so I would stepinto that role and support the
parent.
If it was a question for theschool psychologists, I would
facilitate that meeting.
If it was something I've beendoing in the classroom with a
particular teacher, I'll help,support and facilitate that
meeting.
Now, if it was something thatwas above my pay grade,
(18:57):
something that was so much moreserious, then I would bring the
principal in.
Or if there's a situation wherethe parent refuse, allow me to
support them with whatever theissue was, then that's different
.
Okay, yes, I have to bring theprincipal in into this, but that
was rare.
That was rare.
They just wanted most peoplejust want a response to their
(19:19):
questions in a timely manner andthey don't want to feel that
they're being ran around.
And I'll tell you this sometimes, as a principal, we make this
decision because we want to hearwhat's going on and we want to
be part of it.
Then what ends up happening isby telling the parent or whoever
talks to us, then we bring theother person in who's the expert
(19:40):
and then have everythingre-explained again.
That is not efficient, that isannoying.
It's annoying to the parent,it's annoying to me, as I'm
sitting there thinking like damn, I probably should have bought
this person into thisconversation much earlier, so
things would be more efficient.
So teacher needs are veryimportant and again, when you
(20:01):
look at your team, you askyourself I mean, you ask
yourself as well who are theteachers who have the capacity
and they want to do more, theywant to be part of the movement
of the school.
Then you recruit them, youbring them in and you give them
those smaller tasks that youdon't really have to be the one
to do.
(20:21):
Like a great example, I'm aprincipal who spent their whole
entire time planning field tripsand doing that and doing this.
And I'm like, but why?
Because all you have to do isapprove it.
I mean that all the work hasbeen done.
So you just assign yourselfsaying, okay, everything's been
done, this trip is good to go.
Why are you the one doing allthat?
And again, I know for a factpeople who are that OCD.
(20:44):
They have to be the onesthroughout the whole entire
thing because I don't want toget messed up.
No, that's why you review thework that's been done.
If there's an issue, say, hey,fix this, get this information
and you get it done.
And a teacher leader can do that.
You could have a coordinatorfor student activities who's a
teacher that you might pay them.
(21:04):
In New York we call it aprocession, or maybe, wherever
you are, it might be voluntary,I don't know, maybe something,
probably a schedule during theday, who can do that?
So that's something.
And then, as they do more andmore of it, they become an
expert.
And guess what?
That's something that you don'tever have to worry about
because you know who is takingcare of it.
Got that?
No?
(21:25):
So, again, these are thingsthat can be done to
decentralized leadership, toengage in distributive
leadership.
You know, empowering yoursystem principles, empowering
your teachers.
You know and Again I'm gonnareiterate about, about teacher
leaders.
They, they are literally hiddengenes, gems in our schools.
(21:46):
You know they're the ones inthe trenches, you know they're
deeply connected to with thestudents and they have
invaluable insight and but oftenwe just like did their teachers
.
So they're not administrators,but If you tap into them, you
find solutions to a lot ofthings.
That makes your life so mucheasier if you just Allow for
(22:07):
more people to be part of thedecision-making process.
Of course, we're understandingthat the final call is yours,
but again, you don't do all byyourself.
So what are the challenges?
There are challenges in doingthis Changes.
It isn't easy.
(22:27):
If you, if you, if you, ifyou're a leader who's all about
centralizing your, your, yourpower, your authority Is is not
easy, moving towards adecentralized model and Love.
A lot of the issues in doing soComes from you you trusting
(22:51):
first of all, you overcomingyour fears of what can go wrong,
you Trusting or building thetrust in your team, because when
you do this, you have toactually create a team, and this
, this team has to understandthat you trust them, that you're
willing to invest in them, andand you also appreciate what
they're doing, you know, insupport of the school, of the
(23:12):
school, so, um, so that's,that's the one, that's something
to to make sure you're aware ofin making this transition to,
towards being, to, towardsDecentralizing your leadership
and engaging in this truedistributive leadership.
You know now, and give you astrategy, once I have all my
(23:36):
teams, like, I have certainpeople who are running certain
things, one of the things that Ido is this I Meet with them, I
mean with them consistently.
My sister principal I meet withalmost every day, and that we're
talking about 15-minute meeting, you know, in the morning.
It might be not to depend onthat day or what's on the
schedule, but we will meet.
Or you might be to be me in thecar driving In a conversation
hey, what's going on for today?
(23:57):
What are the things we have totalk about?
Okay, but then I also meet withall my other team members.
My special coordinator I'mmeeting with you my co-sum much,
my coordinate of studentactivities.
We meet.
We meet once a week.
If there's some the multiplethings happening that we might
meet twice a week, but we'retalking about 15, 10, 15 minute
meetings.
I just updates what's going on.
(24:17):
We're not talking about longpro, pro, track, pro track data
meetings, no, no, we're justtalking about those touch touch
points.
But what this allows me to do isthose things that have taken me
hours and hours to accomplish.
No, they're not 10, 15 minutes,five, sometimes five, five, 10,
15 minute touch pointsthroughout the day a week.
(24:37):
That allows me so much moretime to engage in my primary
responsibility, being thoseclassroom supporting teachers.
You know, making sure that I'mable to engage without all our
partners and get the resourcesto do the school all the Things
that I needed to make sure thatwe are winning as a school
community, you know.
So I mean, just remember this.
(25:01):
The goal is to create a Moreresponsive, dynamic and
inclusive leadership structure.
You know, you again, a moreresponsive and dynamic and
inclusive Leadership structure,because one of the outcomes of
this you know, believe it or not, when you engage in something
(25:23):
like this, you're literallybuilding leaders, the future
leaders.
If Scott hadn't done what hehad done and said you got to be
my dean.
I'm going to give you thesupport and training to be as of
what you do so that you canmake those decisions, and if
John hadn't done something forme, I would not be where I'm at
right now A three-time principal, three different schools.
(25:46):
You know and love what I do andalso supporting other leaders
as well and also building outthe leaders at my school as well
.
I'm not saying right now.
The first thing that I did whenI got to MS224 is identify who
are the leaders here, who arethe ones who have the potential
to, when they do what I do, okay, even if that's not what they
(26:09):
want to do.
I got to look for that becauseleaders have certain qualities
about them that mirror that.
I believe if you're a goodleader, they mirror what you
believe leadership is.
So for me, at least, what Ibelieve leadership is so for me.
Going to my school, I'm lookingfor people who are just like me
, who want to do more, who hadsomething to say, who believe in
(26:35):
the school community and werelike I want to be part of, you
know, moving the school forward,and I elevated them.
I said listen, you can supportme with this, you can support me
with that, you can support mewith this, and it's been a good
thing.
But also, the challenge is withthat is you got to develop them.
It's not a hey, you're doingthis, now you walk away and
(26:56):
everything's going to be perfect.
No, it also requires now thatyou're investing time meaning
with them, you're supportingthem, you're growing them,
you're giving them insights,you're showing them how to do
certain things, you're beingpatient when they mess up and
you're being honest with themand say, hey, this is going to
be handled differently.
And when balls are dropped,you're willing to have those
difficult conversations, becausethese are all the things that
(27:18):
hopefully, as a leader, you'vegone through yourself.
You got to get that to them andhopefully, down the road, they
become the dynamically usedthemselves and you now have a
space, as the years go by, whereyou have this flow happening
through your school and that'sthe goal to have that flow.
Yeah, so today we've covered alot, but this is the beginning.
(27:43):
The journey towardsdecentralizing your leadership
is ongoing.
It's like something that yougot to keep practicing, you got
to keep revisiting, but, however, in the long run, the rewards
are all worth it.
I'm telling you, and I'll tellyou right now where I'm at about
to be six months in my school,the school that I have right now
(28:07):
, I'm going through going pains,everybody's learning, everybody
is learning how to do the work,how to do the work as part of a
team, and but again, I believethat the end result, a year from
now, two years from now, isgoing to be a dynamic space
where everybody just knows okay,this is what this is the part
(28:29):
I'm playing, this wanting to do,and that's how I fit into the
greater vision, and not onlythat, there's how I'm supporting
the growth of an incredibleschool.
Yeah, that's it for today, sodon't forget to subscribe, share
this content, listen, ask yourquestions, let me know what you
(28:53):
think and also give me feedback.
Maybe what I'm saying iscompeting nonsense or maybe I
missed something, but this spaceis really about creating an
opportunity for me to share mypersonal insights as a school
leader, but also, hopefully,learn from you as well, because
I don't have all the answers byany means.
I'll tell you right now.
I tell people all the time I'mthe dumbest person in the room,
(29:16):
and I have to be Because of thedumbest person in the room, and
I recognize it, I'm self awareabout it.
That's what I'm doing always.
I'm learning, I'm gettingbetter, I'm getting better and
better and better.
I have no illusions that I'llever reach the point of being
perfect.
That's why I stay being thedumbest person in the room,
learning, yeah.
(29:36):
So again, thank you.
If you're ever interested intalking to me about whatever you
might be going through, feelfree to send me a message or
direct message me or leave acomment.
Whatever the case is, I'malways here to support.
I've been fortunate enough.
Now I can say I have schoolleaders around the country who
(29:59):
reach out to me and say hey,what do you think about this,
what do you think about that?
And in doing that, I'm alwayslearning myself like, ooh, that
was a good one, you know, andI'm learning and I'm growing
myself as well.
So, yeah, let me stop talking.
Have an amazing rest of yourday, and I hope this was, you
know, beneficial to someone.
Would that be?
Instead, have I already said ithave an amazing rest of your
day, be well, thank you.
The other day I sat in my office and I was exhausted
.
I was asking myself why doesthis feel different?
My body hurt, my mind hurt.
I was running on E and the softvoice whispered to me and said
(00:29):
because you're doing everything,because you're doing everything
In this episode of the SneakPrinciple Podcast, we're going
to talk about decentralizingleadership in your school.
Let's go ahead and start.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
When they see me, they know that every day, when
I'm breathing, it's for us to gofarther.
Every time I speak, I want thetruth to come out.
Every time I speak, I want toshiver.
I don't want them to be like.
They know what I'm going to say, because it's polite.
They know what I'm going to sayand even if I get in trouble,
you know what I'm saying.
Ain't that what we're supposedto do?
I'm not saying I'm going torule the world or I'm going to
(01:06):
change the world, but Iguarantee that I will spark the
brain that will change the world, and that's our job.
It's to spark somebody elsewatching us.
We might not be the ones, butlet's not be selfish.
And because we're not going tochange the world, let's not talk
about how we should change it.
I don't know how to change it,but I know.
If I keep talking about howdirty it is out here, somebody
going to clean it up.
(01:26):
And now he's been promoted.
His job is principle.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
What's going on everyone.
This is chain Joku snickerprinciple, and in this episode
we're going to talk aboutsomething that is essential and
I'll be honest with you, it'ssomething that a lot of school
leaders struggle with, even thegreat ones.
But, however, those who areextremely successful have
(02:01):
mastered this and I've made apart of their philosophy in
leadership, and this is nothingnew, this is nothing that's
revolutionary, but, however,it's something that's essential
and I'm doing my best, movingforward, to utilize my notes so
(02:24):
I'm not just running off the topof my head and repeating myself
.
So these centralize in schoolleadership, and what I mean by
this is you have a school, youhave the principle, and a
typical structure of thatleadership hierarchy is you have
(02:49):
the principle that one personand they kind of oversee
everything, and maybe you mighthave an assistant principle or a
few of them and they now assistyou in overseeing everything.
And the problem with that is,if you are a new leader or
(03:12):
you're a leader who is a littleOCD, excuse me, or a lot OCD,
you have to know everythingthat's happening.
And by you knowing everythingthat's happening which you
should know, everything that'shappening I'm not saying that
you should be ignorant aboutwhat's happening in school or in
any capacity.
But if it is your voice that'sconsistently in all these spaces
(03:33):
the guidance counselors,special education, parental
outreach, what's happening inthe cafeteria, as far as the
meals for the week or the day,all these different places, the
custodial staff what happens isall those people now rely on you
(03:55):
to be the voice that they willlisten to.
Some of you might disagree withthis.
This is just right with me onthis.
Maybe it's just my experience,but if you're a school leader,
have you ever had this kind ofday?
You're driving to work, you'regoing through all the things you
(04:15):
need to do that day.
If you are those of you who arebetter than that and spend the
night before, you take yournotes and you do your to-do list
, you have those things andyou're like OK, these are the
things that have to be done.
So you plan it out.
You walk into the building andyou say, ok, I'm going to walk
in, I'm going to do morningarrivals, then from there, I'm
(04:38):
going to grab my notebook, I'mgoing to go to my first
observation.
After my first observation, I'mgoing to do two or three more
observations.
Then from there, I'm going totake a district call I'm going
to do this and that andeverything is scheduled.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
However, that's not what happens.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
You walk in and you have a parent who's waiting to
see you.
And now that situation could bea big thing or a small thing,
but no matter what, it knocksyou off your schedule, but you
must handle that.
Then, after that, you havesomebody from the city guidance
team that says hey, we got thiscall from ACS.
(05:15):
Blah, blah, blah.
What do you want us to do?
And for those of you who don'tknow what ACS is, is our version
of Child Protective Services.
And you're like OK, this is animportant matter, so let me jump
in support with that.
Then you have a teacher who'snow upset because X, y, z
happened and you need to addressthis because it's probably a
(05:37):
step around.
So you're doing that.
Before you know it, it's 2o'clock and you're sitting there
like what just happened.
My whole entire day went by me.
And it's even worse when a lotof these things are being
brought to you by yourleadership team.
So your teacher leaders, yourassistant principals, they're
bringing all these things to youand no one is taking the
(05:57):
initiative to make a decision.
They will not move until yousay, until you, the individuals
say this is what should be done.
But when you look back, you'relike wait a minute.
They know what should be done.
We've been working together foryears.
They're experts at what they do.
But, however, becauseleadership is centralized, with
(06:19):
you being the tip of the sword,no one moves until unless you
move, which now happens tocreate a situation where nothing
really moves, or, if things aremoving, they're moving really,
really slowly, because it's anextra step before decisions are
made, and that extra step is you.
(06:40):
And again, yes, there arecertain things that you have to
make that decision hence down,without a doubt.
But, however, let's say, forexample, you walk in and that
parent who shows up, maybe yourschool could have had a
structure that, when they comein, depending on what the issue
is, if there's something to dowith the sentence and the
(07:00):
instruction, maybe your systemprinciple of instruction is the
one who's meeting with them todeal with that situation.
If there's something to do with, maybe, a guidance issue, maybe
that child's guidance helps theperson who's meeting with that
parent Rather than the parentcoming to you then you're now
saying, okay, I heard you, letme bring someone so into support
you in this, but this is theperson who's handling that.
(07:21):
You know what I'm saying.
So you have the extra step,because now this is explained to
you.
You gotta go find anotherperson and it's explained to
them that you do a handoff andyou know you've lost 20, 30, 45
minutes, and it just happens allthroughout the day.
And I know there's this beliefthat leadership is ever being
(07:42):
ever present in every situation,but it's not effective
leadership.
You know, there's this thingcalled distributive leadership,
and that's what I'm saying, wheneverything is centralized
rather than being decentralized,meaning that there's other
people in it that you've beenempowered to, have been trained
and then know what to do, andthey also know when the matter
(08:03):
is of such urgency or of suchimportance that you have to be
involved.
And that's something that canbe established relatively easily
, like, hey, if it's this issues, call me into those meetings,
or if it's something whereyou're stuck on.
And this is the principlewhoever cannot support you, they
(08:24):
bring me in, but I'm poweringpeople to do their jobs, and
this is what I'm talking abouthere.
So I just laid the groundworkfor this conversation or this
podcast episode, excuse me.
So now let's talk about thepower of empowered assistant
(08:48):
principles.
So assistant principles play acrucial role in the school
success.
There's no doubt about that,however often I was the
assistant principal and I canattest to this they find
themselves stuck in disciplinaryroles, handling operational
(09:08):
tasks with very little room forstrategic input.
They are literally the school'sbutler, the school's, the
principal's goon.
They don't move unless theprincipal says move, and I feel
like that is such a waste oftalent and capacity.
(09:32):
There's a reason the role iscalled assistant principal,
because the training theprincipal went through to become
a principal is the exact sametraining that an assistant
principal goes through to becomean assistant principal.
So, with that being said, whynot create a situation where, as
(09:55):
a principal, you're empoweringyour APs to be part of you?
So I've told my principal and,I'm sorry, my assistant
principal, that we are atwo-headed, four-armed,
four-legged principal.
He has the authority to act onmy behalf on pretty much
(10:20):
everything, and we're able to dothat because he and I are in
constant dialogue.
If it's me driving andsomething about to my head to
give him a call, hey, I wasthinking about this.
What do you think about this?
I make very few decisionswithout him being part of the
conversation and him havinginput in that decision-making
(10:43):
process.
And yes, there's certain thingswhere there's no question I
have to make a decision, I haveto make that executive decision.
But even when I make thoseexecutive decisions, I try my
best to loop him in before Ipush the button and say the
decision has been made.
Or if it was a situation whereI had no choice to make that
decision immediately, then he'scopying those emails.
(11:04):
I have a conversation, hey,just let you know.
This is what happened and thisis what happened.
And I just want you to makesure you're in the loop, because
if I'm not here, you knowwhat's going on.
And again, that's how youempower principals.
I'm sorry, that's how youempower and assist the
principals and by doing that,the pressure is off your back by
tons.
Because now listen, if you'retrying to carry the whole world
(11:26):
by yourself, that's a lot, butif you got two of you sharing
that load, it becomes mucheasier.
Your capacity for thinking anddoing those other things becomes
so much easier.
Those of you who know mepersonally and I say this all
(11:50):
the time I was fortunate enoughearly in my career to have
principals, actually twoprincipals back to back, who
empowered me when I first becamea dean Scott, who was my first
principal.
He was like as long as nosurprises.
You know, rock on as long asyou're following the
(12:14):
chancellor's regulations and therules and everything else, rock
on.
If you're stuck in somethingthat you're not clear about, you
know, let me know.
If you're making a mistake,it's okay, because it's better
to fix a mistake than to make nomovement.
And then we have a disaster.
And I was like, okay, andbecause I was given that leeway,
(12:37):
you know I didn't just go outand beast, I was very thoughtful
while I was doing because Iknew I was representing my
principal.
I knew that whatever I said,whatever I did, had a direct
connection to the function ofthe school under his leadership.
I was his mouthpiece.
I was moving within the samesteps of vision of the mission
and vision of the schoolaccording to my principal and
(13:01):
the only.
By doing what I did, I took offa huge load office plate.
You know I was.
I was handling school culture,the discipline, supporting
teachers with classroommanagement so he can do the
stuff he needs to do aroundinstruction.
You know, before I got there hewas doing everything himself.
You know he empowered me to be,you know, his right-hand man in
(13:24):
that space.
Then my second principal whotook this and took this and took
what Scott did and put onsteroids.
John said listen, you're goingto come and be my dean.
A year later he was like Ithink you have the makings of a
school leader, so I'm going toopen the vaults and you're going
(13:48):
to be part of my leadership,like, truly my leadership, so
you're going to run.
It's funny because at the timeI thought, man, this is a lot,
but he gave me the ability to bewho I am today.
I was, I was the dean,eventually became assistant
principal, I was running themath department, I was special
education coordinator, I ran thescience department and I was
(14:08):
doing all these different things.
But then eventually I wassupporting the parent
coordinator in her work, youknow, and it was like he was
like here are the things I'mtraining you how to do, you know
again.
But it was funny.
He had the same expectationthat Scott did no surprises,
we're talking, we're engaging,we're having conversations, and
(14:30):
and so he was always aware ofthat.
But, however, I cleared a hugeportion of the load for him so
he can do the school buildingthings, the community outreach
to bring the resources in.
You know and it was funnybecause you know, joking back
then a lot of parents thought Iwas the principal, you know and
(14:52):
it's funny because some people,some people will hear that but,
like you know, he wasn't doingit.
No, he was doing a lot and,however, he empowered me to be
able to support him in his, inhis work, and that was my
training ground towards becominga principal.
When I became a principal, therewas literally very, very little
that rattled me because I waslike, I've already been in that
(15:15):
space.
I've been part of this deeperconversations, I've been part of
those, those decisions makingprocesses that move the school
forward.
Because, you know, I wasallowed to be part of a
two-headed or, in thatparticular case with John, a
three-headed, six-armed,six-legged principle.
It was myself and another greatschool leader, max.
(15:38):
So we were the three of ustogether and, again, my
principles were my principle.
That didn't change.
He was the head, but we wereextensions of him.
So think about that.
It's very important.
Some of you might say, well, mysystem was young or they're weak
(15:59):
or all excuses, but the thingis this people don't move until
they're moved.
You have to redistributeresponsibilities, empower your
APs or your vice principles andalso exercise discretion.
(16:20):
Maybe there's certain thingsthat you know without a doubt.
If this is messed up, this istruly on me.
I have to be the one.
But what about all the otherthings that literally come on
now?
Does the cafeteria lady or aman have to come to you with
everything?
Can that be sent to your systemprinciple?
Who can now make decisions orcome to you at a little point so
(16:42):
you can get through your day?
Are there certain things thatcan be handled by certain people
who already have expertise inthose areas, so that all they
have to do is inform you ofwhat's happening and what
they're doing and you can givethem feedback and let them keep
moving, so you have the spaceand time to do that?
(17:06):
I mean, these are the thingsthat a lot of us school leaders
are dropping the ball on.
They're overwhelmed, they wereburnt out and it's because we're
doing everything.
And I think a lot of it has todo with my last episode, when I
talked about fear.
We're afraid of letting go.
We're afraid that if things getmessed up, I'd rather have it.
(17:27):
I'd rather would if it hadn'tbeen my fault than somebody
messin' it up.
But if you're breaking down andthings are still getting messed
up because you're overwhelmed,then what's the point?
And now the next tier ofdistributive leadership, as far
as who you can distribute to areyour teacher leaders.
(17:50):
Again, my foray into leadershipstarted with me as a teacher.
I was a teacher and Scott said,hey, you're gonna be my dean.
And a dean is a pedagogicalrole.
It's not an administrative role.
It's just quasi-administrativebecause, yes, the work and the
paperwork and everything has tobe done.
It's very administrative but,however, the dean is really a
(18:14):
teacher and it's really ateacher leader.
So when you have teacherleaders and they're not just
deans you have teacher leaderswho might be team leads or
instructional coaches orwhatever the case may be, seeing
what their expertise I, forexample, being a specializing
coordinator parents would comein with questions about special
education or whatever the casemay be, and I would step into
(18:37):
that role.
I was an expert, so I would stepinto that role and support the
parent.
If it was a question for theschool psychologists, I would
facilitate that meeting.
If it was something I've beendoing in the classroom with a
particular teacher, I'll help,support and facilitate that
meeting.
Now, if it was something thatwas above my pay grade,
(18:57):
something that was so much moreserious, then I would bring the
principal in.
Or if there's a situation wherethe parent refuse, allow me to
support them with whatever theissue was, then that's different
.
Okay, yes, I have to bring theprincipal in into this, but that
was rare.
That was rare.
They just wanted most peoplejust want a response to their
(19:19):
questions in a timely manner andthey don't want to feel that
they're being ran around.
And I'll tell you this sometimes, as a principal, we make this
decision because we want to hearwhat's going on and we want to
be part of it.
Then what ends up happening isby telling the parent or whoever
talks to us, then we bring theother person in who's the expert
(19:40):
and then have everythingre-explained again.
That is not efficient, that isannoying.
It's annoying to the parent,it's annoying to me, as I'm
sitting there thinking like damn, I probably should have bought
this person into thisconversation much earlier, so
things would be more efficient.
So teacher needs are veryimportant and again, when you
(20:01):
look at your team, you askyourself I mean, you ask
yourself as well who are theteachers who have the capacity
and they want to do more, theywant to be part of the movement
of the school.
Then you recruit them, youbring them in and you give them
those smaller tasks that youdon't really have to be the one
to do.
(20:21):
Like a great example, I'm aprincipal who spent their whole
entire time planning field tripsand doing that and doing this.
And I'm like, but why?
Because all you have to do isapprove it.
I mean that all the work hasbeen done.
So you just assign yourselfsaying, okay, everything's been
done, this trip is good to go.
Why are you the one doing allthat?
And again, I know for a factpeople who are that OCD.
(20:44):
They have to be the onesthroughout the whole entire
thing because I don't want toget messed up.
No, that's why you review thework that's been done.
If there's an issue, say, hey,fix this, get this information
and you get it done.
And a teacher leader can do that.
You could have a coordinatorfor student activities who's a
teacher that you might pay them.
(21:04):
In New York we call it aprocession, or maybe, wherever
you are, it might be voluntary,I don't know, maybe something,
probably a schedule during theday, who can do that?
So that's something.
And then, as they do more andmore of it, they become an
expert.
And guess what?
That's something that you don'tever have to worry about
because you know who is takingcare of it.
Got that?
No?
(21:25):
So, again, these are thingsthat can be done to
decentralized leadership, toengage in distributive
leadership.
You know, empowering yoursystem principles, empowering
your teachers.
You know and Again I'm gonnareiterate about, about teacher
leaders.
They, they are literally hiddengenes, gems in our schools.
(21:46):
You know they're the ones inthe trenches, you know they're
deeply connected to with thestudents and they have
invaluable insight and but oftenwe just like did their teachers
.
So they're not administrators,but If you tap into them, you
find solutions to a lot ofthings.
That makes your life so mucheasier if you just Allow for
(22:07):
more people to be part of thedecision-making process.
Of course, we're understandingthat the final call is yours,
but again, you don't do all byyourself.
So what are the challenges?
There are challenges in doingthis Changes.
It isn't easy.
(22:27):
If you, if you, if you, ifyou're a leader who's all about
centralizing your, your, yourpower, your authority Is is not
easy, moving towards adecentralized model and Love.
A lot of the issues in doing soComes from you you trusting
(22:51):
first of all, you overcomingyour fears of what can go wrong,
you Trusting or building thetrust in your team, because when
you do this, you have toactually create a team, and this
, this team has to understandthat you trust them, that you're
willing to invest in them, andand you also appreciate what
they're doing, you know, insupport of the school, of the
(23:12):
school, so, um, so that's,that's the one, that's something
to to make sure you're aware ofin making this transition to,
towards being, to, towardsDecentralizing your leadership
and engaging in this truedistributive leadership.
You know now, and give you astrategy, once I have all my
(23:36):
teams, like, I have certainpeople who are running certain
things, one of the things that Ido is this I Meet with them, I
mean with them consistently.
My sister principal I meet withalmost every day, and that we're
talking about 15-minute meeting, you know, in the morning.
It might be not to depend onthat day or what's on the
schedule, but we will meet.
Or you might be to be me in thecar driving In a conversation
hey, what's going on for today?
(23:57):
What are the things we have totalk about?
Okay, but then I also meet withall my other team members.
My special coordinator I'mmeeting with you my co-sum much,
my coordinate of studentactivities.
We meet.
We meet once a week.
If there's some the multiplethings happening that we might
meet twice a week, but we'retalking about 15, 10, 15 minute
meetings.
I just updates what's going on.
(24:17):
We're not talking about longpro, pro, track, pro track data
meetings, no, no, we're justtalking about those touch touch
points.
But what this allows me to do isthose things that have taken me
hours and hours to accomplish.
No, they're not 10, 15 minutes,five, sometimes five, five, 10,
15 minute touch pointsthroughout the day a week.
(24:37):
That allows me so much moretime to engage in my primary
responsibility, being thoseclassroom supporting teachers.
You know, making sure that I'mable to engage without all our
partners and get the resourcesto do the school all the Things
that I needed to make sure thatwe are winning as a school
community, you know.
So I mean, just remember this.
(25:01):
The goal is to create a Moreresponsive, dynamic and
inclusive leadership structure.
You know, you again, a moreresponsive and dynamic and
inclusive Leadership structure,because one of the outcomes of
this you know, believe it or not, when you engage in something
(25:23):
like this, you're literallybuilding leaders, the future
leaders.
If Scott hadn't done what hehad done and said you got to be
my dean.
I'm going to give you thesupport and training to be as of
what you do so that you canmake those decisions, and if
John hadn't done something forme, I would not be where I'm at
right now A three-time principal, three different schools.
(25:46):
You know and love what I do andalso supporting other leaders
as well and also building outthe leaders at my school as well
.
I'm not saying right now.
The first thing that I did whenI got to MS224 is identify who
are the leaders here, who arethe ones who have the potential
to, when they do what I do, okay, even if that's not what they
(26:09):
want to do.
I got to look for that becauseleaders have certain qualities
about them that mirror that.
I believe if you're a goodleader, they mirror what you
believe leadership is.
So for me, at least, what Ibelieve leadership is so for me.
Going to my school, I'm lookingfor people who are just like me
, who want to do more, who hadsomething to say, who believe in
(26:35):
the school community and werelike I want to be part of, you
know, moving the school forward,and I elevated them.
I said listen, you can supportme with this, you can support me
with that, you can support mewith this, and it's been a good
thing.
But also, the challenge is withthat is you got to develop them.
It's not a hey, you're doingthis, now you walk away and
(26:56):
everything's going to be perfect.
No, it also requires now thatyou're investing time meaning
with them, you're supportingthem, you're growing them,
you're giving them insights,you're showing them how to do
certain things, you're beingpatient when they mess up and
you're being honest with themand say, hey, this is going to
be handled differently.
And when balls are dropped,you're willing to have those
difficult conversations, becausethese are all the things that
(27:18):
hopefully, as a leader, you'vegone through yourself.
You got to get that to them andhopefully, down the road, they
become the dynamically usedthemselves and you now have a
space, as the years go by, whereyou have this flow happening
through your school and that'sthe goal to have that flow.
Yeah, so today we've covered alot, but this is the beginning.
(27:43):
The journey towardsdecentralizing your leadership
is ongoing.
It's like something that yougot to keep practicing, you got
to keep revisiting, but, however, in the long run, the rewards
are all worth it.
I'm telling you, and I'll tellyou right now where I'm at about
to be six months in my school,the school that I have right now
(28:07):
, I'm going through going pains,everybody's learning, everybody
is learning how to do the work,how to do the work as part of a
team, and but again, I believethat the end result, a year from
now, two years from now, isgoing to be a dynamic space
where everybody just knows okay,this is what this is the part
(28:29):
I'm playing, this wanting to do,and that's how I fit into the
greater vision, and not onlythat, there's how I'm supporting
the growth of an incredibleschool.
Yeah, that's it for today, sodon't forget to subscribe, share
this content, listen, ask yourquestions, let me know what you
(28:53):
think and also give me feedback.
Maybe what I'm saying iscompeting nonsense or maybe I
missed something, but this spaceis really about creating an
opportunity for me to share mypersonal insights as a school
leader, but also, hopefully,learn from you as well, because
I don't have all the answers byany means.
I'll tell you right now.
I tell people all the time I'mthe dumbest person in the room,
(29:16):
and I have to be Because of thedumbest person in the room, and
I recognize it, I'm self awareabout it.
That's what I'm doing always.
I'm learning, I'm gettingbetter, I'm getting better and
better and better.
I have no illusions that I'llever reach the point of being
perfect.
That's why I stay being thedumbest person in the room,
learning, yeah.
(29:36):
So again, thank you.
If you're ever interested intalking to me about whatever you
might be going through, feelfree to send me a message or
direct message me or leave acomment.
Whatever the case is, I'malways here to support.
I've been fortunate enough.
Now I can say I have schoolleaders around the country who
(29:59):
reach out to me and say hey,what do you think about this,
what do you think about that?
And in doing that, I'm alwayslearning myself like, ooh, that
was a good one, you know, andI'm learning and I'm growing
myself as well.
So, yeah, let me stop talking.
Have an amazing rest of yourday, and I hope this was, you
know, beneficial to someone.
Would that be?
Instead, have I already said ithave an amazing rest of your
day, be well, thank you.
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