Finding Freedom in Prison

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everyone, the story you're about to hear is my
story.
It's a hard story to tell.
It's got a lot of embarrassingmoments for me, but I had to
tell the truth, otherwise it'snot going to be a real story.
There's a segment in the storythat I talk about betrayal in
the gang.
I'm not talking about the wholegang.
I'm not talking about anybodyelse in the gang.
I'm talking about the crew thatI was in charge of that aren't
a crew anymore.
I've got a lot of love andrespect for the brothers that I

(00:22):
grew up with and spent a lot ofyears with, so I don't want to
disrespect or upset anybody.
It's a positive story.
It's not a negative story.
It's a story about my life.
It's a story about some badtimes Depression, suicide,
spiritual awakening andadversity.
So I hope it helps people thatcan relate to it and I hope you
enjoy it.
Thanks everyone.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
Welcome back to the Social Wildlife.
This month we have Kev on thepodcast, kev Nafare.
Kev is a friend we met recentlythrough a mutual friend.
Kev spent the better part of 30years in a gang in New Zealand.
You were quite high up at onepoint in the gangs in that gang
is that right?
And so that was in Hawke's Bayand Christchurch.

(01:25):
So he exited the gang scenemaybe three years ago and has
been working on himself sinceand I thank you for coming on
the show.
Great, it's good to be here.
Thanks for having me, josh.
No worries, man, do you want totell us?
Just maybe start by sharing abit about where you grew up and
a little bit about what yourearly life was like.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, I grew up and a little bit about like what your
early life was like.
Yeah, I grew up in, uh, napier.
I was born, born in waipaka andcentral waltz bay, grew up in
napier, um, I had a.
Well, I had a good family and agood home.
Yeah, uh, hard working family.
We weren't rich or anything butuh, yeah, I had uh, four
sisters and a brother, mostlyolder, my oldest sister, linda,

(02:09):
then I had a brother, martin,who was nine years older than me
, eight nine years older than me, then I had another sister,
maria, and another sister,sharon, after that and then me
and then our younger sister,tania.
So I had a good, loving familyand my father was a heavy
drinker and a heavy gambler.

(02:30):
So that caused a lot of strifein my parents' life and things
like that.
My mum looked after us mostly.
My father was always eitherworking, but in saying that
though he was a good man, he wasa good dad, good loving father
and that, but he just had acouple of drinking problem and a

(02:53):
gambling problem, I see, whichcaused a lot of stress on my
mother and my father'srelationship, I think, yep, so
there was a lot of fighting andarguing and that as well.
Not like once for warriors oranything, but even though I grew
up around a lot of that, butnot between my mum and dad.
It was just a lot of fightingand drunk arguments.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
Right, I remember you saying something about was it
your?
There was other parents orother families that you knew of,
that that kind of stuff washappening, eh, yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
So when I grew up I mean I grew up in Raianui and
Napier, so I mean it was quite abig gang presence in that area
and my mates who I went toschool with they actually ended
up most of my mates ended up inthe gang as well, and even young

(03:46):
at primary school and thingslike that.
My mates who I lived next, mynext door neighbours, and my
school mates that I hung aroundwith they were like I know, for
example, my mate Mike who livedone house away from me.
I'd go and play with him.
He was quite mischief though,but tough.

(04:07):
He was the toughest in ourschool.
Everywhere we went he was thetoughest guy, really good
sportsman there, but he grew upreally hard.
So I'd go and play over at hishouse and his father would come
home and he'd get beaten up likea man.
He'd get thrown around and Iwas punched over and his old man
was punched over Really and hisold man was tough too.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
And you watched that happen.
I seen that happen.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
It was very scary when you're a little kid.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
Oh, I bet it was yeah yeah, Talking under 10.

Speaker 1 (04:33):
Right, so you'd see that.
But then again he'd get a hellof a hiding.
And then the next day he'd bedriving his old man, Morris
Minor, on his way to school.
He was driving as a child, youknow, and I go.
What are you doing?
You're going to get out of thebody and he's taking it out.
Yeah, this is like the day after.
So this is probably why he usedto get.
This is why he used to getbeaten in that probably.

(04:53):
But I mean the beatings that hegot were not.
They wouldn't.
A man wouldn't be able to takesome of these beatings.
They were pretty bad, yep, yep,and I had a few mates that were
brought up like that.
Luckily I wasn't, I was notsort of subject to that sort of
family life, but when I wasyoung.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
But I saw a lot of it yeah, yeah, yep, and I guess
the world was a different placeback then.
Eh, yeah, I mean it happens now, don't get me wrong, but I
think that there was less interms of support and coping
strategies and all that to do.

Speaker 1 (05:26):
Oh, and the laws were different back then.
Yeah true, If someone reportedsomeone giving their child a
hide and the cops turned up,they'd just sort of tear you off
.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
I don't think there was any laws against it.
No, that's right, unless youkilled them.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah, I mean everyone was doing it, so it was kind of
like, yeah, yeah, I rememberwhen we spoke.
We've obviously spoken earlier.
I mean, you mentioned somethingabout you lost your brother
quite early in your life.
Could you tell me a bit aboutthat, maybe, and just how it
impacted you?

Speaker 1 (05:58):
Yeah, it was definitely a life changer for me
.
I just turned 13, and, insaying this, my brother he was
when he died.
He died five days after his21st birthday and I had just
turned 13, so that was the agedifference.
My brother always looked outfor me, he was my protector, he

(06:19):
was the one that taught me aboutlife, that showed things, yep,
um.
So I absolutely idolized mybrother.
He'd take me for rides on hismotorbike, he'd play, fight with
me, he'd protect me.
When, the when I'd have a fightor get beaten up by kids down at
the park or whatever, he'd comeand sort of stick up for me and
they'd, you know, they'd allrun off and or he'd, or he'd

(06:41):
fight for me, you know, but theywere older kids.
Yep, but he had um.
So he was always my protectorand my mentor and I just loved
him so much when my father wouldcome home with parties or my
brother, because they would goto pubs and things with my
father and that, and they'd comehome with a party and I'd think
, oh, good party, and I'd getall excited.

(07:03):
So I think I'm trying to get inthere with them and I mean this
is at like age 10, 11, thosesort of ages.
I used to love it when they'dcome home with parties.
It was exciting for me, so I'dtry and get all in amongst it
and my father would yell at meand tell me to get to bed and
I'd sort of get real sad.
I mean just an example of oneof the things I'd go to bed and

(07:23):
I'd be crying in my bed and thenmy brother would come in.
My brother would come in andsit on the bed next to me and
he'd explain stuff to me likebro, it's not your time yet
You're going to have your time.
It's just a bit early, justdon't worry about it.
Oh, what a good man.
Yeah, he was really good.
Yeah, he was said.

(07:45):
He meant a lot to me, so whenhe died, it definitely changed
my life.
When I think back on it, it wasa shock for all my family.
I wasn't the only one that wasdevastated.
You can imagine parents losingtheir child.
Oh yeah, it'd be devastating.
It's something I wouldn't theonly one that was devastated.
You can imagine parents losingtheir child.

Speaker 2 (08:06):
Oh yeah, it'd be devastating.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
It's something I wouldn't wish on anybody.
And I remember I was home fromschool that day and the cops
pulled up and two of my sisterswere there, Sharon and Maria,
and the cops knocked at the door.
I answered the door.
They said, oh, is your parentshere?
And I said no.
Maria came to the door and thenthey told us both and I just

(08:28):
remember it was just devastating, devastating for my whole
family.
Everyone was just distraught,Definitely changed all of our
lives.
I remember everyone camerushing home from work my
parents, my older sisters and mybrother-in-laws and the whole
family was all there.
Everyone my older sisters andmy brother-in-laws and the whole
family was all there.
Everyone was just devastated.
And I remember standing there.
It was like I wasn't there butI was there and I was looking

(08:50):
around at everybody and I couldsee just the devastation of it
all and the grief that everyonewas going through.
Everyone was crying.
But it was that moment that Ifelt I didn't realise it at the
time but thinking back on it now, I felt really alone.
I felt really alone becausethey went really well.
I don't blame my family becausethey were going through their

(09:11):
own grief, but they sort offorgot about me.
They thought I was still a bityoung, I wouldn't be hurting as
much as they were.
But in truth of it all, I wasactually hurting the most
because he was everything to me,like I said, and when we lost
him that day, I actually feltunloved that day because I never

(09:33):
got hugs.
Everyone was hugging each other, but they just forgot about me
and I mean, I love my family,I've got good family.
There was that moment that Irealised that I just wanted to
die.
I missed my brother that much.
I wanted to die with him.
I had been locked myself in myroom for a week.
My mother had to come and eatand things like that.

(09:55):
I just wasn't hungry.
And I remember my mentality Ijust wanted to die to be with
him.
I mean, if there was a heavenor wherever he was, wherever he
had gone, I wanted to go there,yeah.
So I didn't realize this then,but I had gotten abandonment
issues right from that.
From that moment, from thosetimes, and and it just

(10:16):
completely changed me.
I was, I got, I was a reallyshy, bit of a weird kid, but
it's really shy like I wouldn'teven shit in the house if we had
visitors and we had a big house.
I mean, that's how shy, I was.

Speaker 2 (10:28):
I don't blame you.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
I probably wouldn't either.
That's how shy I was and yeah,and so I um, I really had I'd
hardly spoke, but yeah, I was.
But after that it justcompletely changed.
I mean, I was, I was a goodchild.
I wouldn't even steal like 50cents out of my mum's purse or
anything like that.
I wouldn't steal a push bike ornothing like that.
But that completely changed methat moment.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
Do you feel like your family knew how much support he
provided you?

Speaker 1 (10:56):
No, I don't think they did.
I don't think they did.
I knew, but I don't think theysaw it much because he didn't
really announce it to everybody.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
He'd just see it, he'd see it and he'd just come
and talk to me.
It sounded like he was doingthe things that they were
forgetting to do sometimes, orjust overlooking.

Speaker 1 (11:14):
Yeah, and I think it's more just being overlooked
really because they had theirown lives.
My older sisters, they allworked.
They all worked for me whenthey were 15, 16.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
You can understand too.
Being the youngest, it's likeyour parents would have probably
had a lot of learningexperiences with the older ones.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
And then as they get older, they get more capable of
looking after themselves and asparents we kind of would be like
, okay, I haven't got to thisage yet, but you can imagine you
get to a certain age.
You're just kind of like, okay,I can relax a bit, I don't have
to put as much energy intoparenting and it's like it would
be easy to overlook the youngerones?

Speaker 1 (11:49):
Yeah, I think it was.
Well, I wasn't the youngest, Iwas second youngest.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Oh, second youngest, Sorry so.

Speaker 1 (11:53):
I think my youngest sister.
She was put in that forgottengap.
Oh, I see.
But, I wasn't forgotten, forgot.
I mean I was looked after.

Speaker 2 (12:01):
I mean I got all the hand-me-downs yeah, yeah, I
never looked but uh, I, I yeahmisunderstood, I think yeah,
yeah yeah, um you mentioned thatyou um also had a motorcycle
accident yeah, that was, um,because my brother died from a

(12:21):
motorcycle accident, right.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
So from that moment on, like I said, I wanted to die
to be with him.
I think, subconsciously, I juststarted living dangerously and
taking risks and not caring if Ilived or died.
Yeah, so I got a motorbike.
This is a year after.
Yeah, I think it was only justover a year after.

(12:45):
So I was 14, going on 15, and Igot myself an XR500, and I got
drunk Me and my mates got drunkfrom having a party and I
thought I'd go and pick up afriend.
So I jumped on this bike and Iwas going past my other friend's
house Kelvin Pratt was his name.

(13:05):
I had a lot to do with himgrowing up as well, because he
was rich, his parents weremillionaires, right.
And so I grew up, we used to goto the rivers on here two RM
motorbikes, oh yeah, two strokes.
So we used to go down therivers Saturday and Sunday and
that's how I learned how to rideand things like that.
Yep, and I was actually goingpast his house and he was

(13:27):
loading the bikes up on thetrailer and I stopped and I was
drunk and stoned, actually, andI pulled up to his place and he
said, oh, is this your new bike?
And yeah, he goes, let's seehow fast it can go, go wrap it
down the street.
And I'm stupid, mean, right.
So I went down the other end ofthe street, turned around and I

(13:49):
just gave it a full tip.
I think I was doing about, Ithink I did 165 k's or something
I was doing and I forgot allabout just past one house, past
this place, and I just didn'teven think about it, just drunk
and stupid.
And I went full tip down thereand as I went past his house I
turned and waved to him.

(14:09):
I turned around and I was goingoff the road up into the
driveway on the curb strip,grass strip, and I remember the
brakes had really touchy brakes.
So I was doing 165 k's butstraight towards a tree and I
couldn't really use the brakes,I had to just sort of swerve,
just miss that tree, went acrossthe footpath straight head on

(14:30):
into a power pole.
Just go at everything.
I got just miss that and head oninto a big green steel power
transformer.
So the impact was pretty bad.
I tried to fly over thehandlebars.
On impact, the handlebar wentinto the top of my thigh, went
straight through my leg andripped right down my leg, just

(14:51):
mangled my leg.
So yeah, Wow.
I got thrown, probably about ahouse and a half that's how I
measured it, A house and a halfbut I was flying backwards and
in slow motion.
Everything was frame by frame.
It took ages.
And when I landed on the groundwhich was another miracle I
sort of landed backwards on thesmall of my back and then my

(15:16):
head flipped back, which wasanother miracle, because I
didn't have the helmet done upand it was really loose.
I had no padding around thefront, just on the top.
So when I flipped my head back,my helmet hit the gutter and
come flying off, which I don'teven know.
I always put it down tocentripetal force when I was
flying through there.

(15:36):
It kept it on or someone waslooking after me that day, and I
actually think more now thatsomeone was looking after me
that day.
Because obviously that impactwould have done some bad damage
my friend Kelvin that I wasgoing past his house.
He brought the helmet up to ahospital.
Once I woke up a few weekslater and showed me the helmet

(15:58):
and it was crushed at the backand had a crack right down the
middle.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
So that saved my life .
It would have been you, yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:04):
And also, I think, the St John ambulance who had
moved that day, not that dayjust at the process of having a
new building in Green Meadows.
It was rush hour traffic rightat that time so it took them a
long time to get to where I was.
It took them 40 minutes to getto where I was Wow that's a long
time, yeah, so I'd almost diedfrom loss of blood and that

(16:29):
anyway, my I was lying on theground and I knew something was
wrong with my leg because it wasnumb.
I couldn't feel it and I wasthinking, saying to myself don't
look at your leg, don't lookdown, don't look down.
And I looked down and as soonas I looked, seen it.
That's when I felt all the paincome rushing up.
I screamed like a it would havebeen.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
It would have been a long, 40 minutes, yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:41):
It was just.
I just remember the pain,because the first thing I saw
was my foot was turned aroundand facing the other way and my
shin bone had come up through myknee and was sticking out like
probably about that far and mywhole thigh was just ripped open
like a gutted fish.
It was open.
I could see inside it.

(17:02):
There was no bone.
All the bone had been smashedinto a thousand pieces.
My females and I could see allthe veins and the muscles were
ripped and torn or hanging outand shaking and they're
twitching.
And I could see inside my legand my I could actually see my
legs swelling like that.
And then, yes, so that was.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
It was pretty, um, traumatic you're lucky it didn't
get your femur right oh, yeah,your fem femoral artery.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
Yeah, no, the artery.
Yeah, that was another miracleof it.
It had actually ripped rightdown my and shattered my whole
bone, my whole femur, but theartery that runs through the
inside of my leg, it nevertouched it and if it had severed
that I would have been dead intwo minutes.

Speaker 2 (17:39):
I think your femoral artery, like if it's big enough
you can bleed out in like 20seconds or something.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
It's ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
It's like four pumps.
That's it, it's all gone.

Speaker 1 (17:49):
No, I was very lucky.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Very lucky that day.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
I knew then, even running from my head, I thought
I was either going to die thatday, but I knew I'd never walk
again.
I'm never going to walk.
It was just mangled, it was amess.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
Does it give you any problems now at all?

Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah, yeah, it's shorter than it is the other way
, but I mean I was quite luckyas well.
The orthopedic surgeon whoworked on me when I went to
intensive care.
Of course my parents got toldlook, we're going to have to cut
his leg off right at the top.
It's too badly damaged andprobably can't keep it.

(18:25):
But Mr Atkinson was theorthopedic surgeon, brilliant,
brilliant doctor.
He worked on it for the firstoperation.
He worked on it for 16 hoursand saved it.
But it was still touch and go.
After that he said I could getgangrene at any time.
Then they'd have to cut it offanyway.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
Is it just gangrene, just a bacterial infection?
Yeah, yeah, and.

Speaker 1 (18:44):
I was really open To infection because he said he had
to pick out A thousand piecesof bone.
He counted them and it also hadgrass and dirt.

Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yeah, the handlebar had been through it.
Yeah, the handlebar had beenthrough it.

Speaker 1 (18:55):
So Bits of gene in it denim genes and things like
that in it, and so I, oh andplus also I forgot to mention
that the power, and so I andplus also I forgot to mention
that the power transformer thatI hit the bike.
I remember being taken away onan ambulance.
I looked over and the bike wasstill embedded in the
transformer and I knocked outeveryone's power in the whole

(19:15):
block and the people, theworkmen, had come there to fix
it even before I left in theambulance and they were saying
they don't know how I didn't getblown up could have
electrocuted you on the waythrough.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
Even the impact.
It's kind of like when youlight a cigarette off the mains
in prison and you blow thepowder, everyone's way that
pisses everyone off once TVs gooff.
Oh shit, olds, I'm glad youcame through that.
Okay, it would have been a longtime recovery.
I think I was in.

Speaker 1 (19:47):
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, oh shit, I'm glad youcame through that okay.
It would have been a long-timerecovery, no doubt.
Yeah, I think I was in hospitalfor eight months Right, eight
months.
I was in traction for nearlyall of those eight months and it
was terrible terrible for ateenager because you're on your
back and my leg was up in theair.
You've got a cage over you withpulleys and ropes and weights
and pulling your legs stretchedBecause I had no femur left so I

(20:10):
had to pull my leg constantly.
I had pins through the bottomof my leg with strings attached
to it and hanging down throughpulleys at the end of the bed
with weights on it, so it keptthe tension on my legs Sounds
like a torture device.
Yeah, pretty much, but it wasall just to keep my leg that far

(20:31):
apart so that the bone couldhopefully heal back together.
And the bone actually didn'theal back together.
It healed back together in abig knot which is actually
stronger.

Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yeah, I've heard that .

Speaker 1 (20:44):
Yeah, I was very lucky but very mentally
stressful for a teenager to beon my back Because you couldn't
turn over and get comfortable.
It drove me crazy, it drove menuts.
It would, yeah, and let alonejust being in hospital.
But not being able to get offthe bed or even turn over to get
comfortable, not even on yourside, All you could do was sit

(21:06):
up and yeah, like shitting andpissing in a potty and things
like that, and it'd be painfulfor the first, like you know,
few months.
Yeah, well, I mean, I was inintensive care for a couple of
weeks, I think, and then I cameout and I was in the orthopedic
ward, which was all still.
I was on morphine andeverything.
It was all still a bit fuzzythen and I did have like out of

(21:31):
it dreams and woke up trying toget out of the thing.
Yeah, true, and wake up with alot of pain and things like that
.
But yeah, I got through it andthen the rest of it was just
healing after that really.
But I think it was more themental part of it.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
Building resilience, eh yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
And just handling that actually being in there
without going crazy.

Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yeah, yeah, I can understand.
That must have been a very,very hard situation to deal with
.
You mentioned.
Did you have consistent friendsduring this time, or did your
friend group evolve, or change.

Speaker 1 (22:07):
Yeah, I had consistent friends.
So once I left school I meanlike my mate Mike and my other,
like I grew up around a lot ofguys and met the school of a lot
of guys that ended up in thegang they up like doing big lags
so when they left school we allsort of got kicked out of

(22:28):
school, left school when we wereabout 14, you know.
Uh, beginning of fourth form,in the third form and and sort
of they all my, a lot of mymates went to, went to the gang
and I sort of seen them and Ithought, well, the gang at that
time was really rough, reallybad, very unapproachable.
And so I seen them doing thatand I thought, well, that

(22:50):
doesn't look like fun.
I didn't want to do that.
I sort of hung around with mywhite mates surfing and hung
around at the beach.
It was fun.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
Were the gangs at that time more just Maori, yeah,
pretty much.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
I mean there were a few white people in there, but
it was predominantly Māori, yeahand so.
But then I like my whitefriends, my Pākehā friends, we
had a lot of fun.
We had a lot of fun and it wasall about, I mean, I turned to a
lot of drinking, and thatespecially after my brother died

(23:26):
, which I just drank.
So Kilburn was a good mate ofmine.
He was the one that I had theaccident outside his house.
Yep, I spent a lot of time withhim and Stephen Burns and they
were sort of quite.
They had rich parents and richfamilies and that.
So I sort of hung around withthem.
It was a lot of fun.

(23:48):
Kelvin died a few years ago.
He had a car accident.
He got killed Right, and alsoright about that time I started
becoming really good friendswith my mate Dion.
I actually met Dion when I wasabout 12, and he was really
mischief, like he was really.
He was a white guy, you know.

(24:08):
He already had tattoos andthings, though he used to tattoo
himself and that.
But his uncles were all likejailbirds and they said, like
white people that are tattooedup and down the heaps of jail.
So he sort of.
Those were his sort ofinfluences and he sort of had
that mentality.
But he was funny as in, as hewas a hard case.
So I met him but I didn'treally start hanging around with

(24:29):
him until like when Kelvin died, when I was up after hospital,
and then, um, so I yeah, sort ofmy, my friend group sort of
changed then after Kelvin diedand then I went myself and Dion

(24:50):
and Carl Carl Roberts and that.
So we hung around a lottogether and we got into a lot
of mischief.
Me and Dion decided we didn'twant to be home anymore and we
decided should we go and bestreet kids?

Speaker 2 (25:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
So we did we did and we both had good homes, good
families.
How?

Speaker 2 (25:04):
old, were you at that point?

Speaker 1 (25:06):
I was 15.
I think I'd just come out ofhospital.
Right, might have been before.
No, it was after hospital.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
It was after hospital did you have another accident
or something after that?

Speaker 1 (25:15):
I did, I did so when I got out of hospital I was in
this horrendous big cast.
There was two big casts withbrackets on the knee and things
like that.
I had to learn how to walkagain.
I was on a Zimmer frame andthings like that for a while.
I I and.

(25:37):
So when I finally got my castoff, which would have been a few
months later after getting outof hospital, I got drunk again,
jumped on my mate's bike andwent to go and get a pie at six
o'clock in the morning and cameoff the bike again and broke the
same femur, but where it hadheld.
It broke just underneath it,between the knee and the other
break.
And it got three breaks in thefemur, but not where the, where

(25:58):
it had healed.
It broke just underneath it,between the knee and that and
the other break and it got threebreaks in the femur there.
So I had to go into um.
They didn't even know it would,if it would actually heal, if
calcium would go there, but butit did, so I was back in
traction again for about fourand a half months.
Yeah right, it wasn't even ayear later.
So so, yeah, I did that and gotout again and was the lesson

(26:24):
learnt that time no no, no, itwas just.
You know, it was just a badmixture of alcohol and and just
trying to have fun.
And we loved motorbikes me,dion and Carl we all had
motorbikes and we would cruisearound on motorbikes and we'd
cruise around pissed and it wasjust stupid, young, stupid stuff
and we were mischief.
So we had a couple more littleaccidents there, but those were

(26:47):
two big ones.
I learnt from those accidents,though.
I learnt how to ride betterafter that.

Speaker 2 (26:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I wish I'd had motorbikes likethat one we've got.
There's one here in the garage.
That was my dream to have oneof those when I was a kid yeah
same, and I just I used to.
There was a.
In Christchurch there was aplace called Kiwi 2 Fun Park
yeah and it was over at the Kiwi2 poles right around there, and
they had they had a track forreal slow so that they'd got

(27:16):
walking or jogging speed likemax, and it had like stop signs
and and you know things, thatyou had little buildings that
you could drive around andpretend that you're on the
streets, um.
But then they had a motorbiketrack too, which had these blue,
uh, yamaha, yamaha, um, littletiny, wee four-stroke bikes and
I just honestly, you had to be12 right to use those and up
until I was 12 I was just like Ijust want to go on those.

(27:38):
So bad anyway, the the theywere.
By the time I was 12 and Imanaged to get there and go on
the one of them, they were aboutto close the motorbike side of
things.
It was that they weren't doingit anymore and I went there and
they said, oh no, we've closedthe track today, no one's using
it.
And I was 12 and I never got togo to the fun park and I like I

(27:59):
couldn't believe I didn't getto go, but they were like, oh,
we'll let you go on it, butyou'll be on the track with the
cars and I was like are youfucking kidding me?
I was like, yes, and so I got todo that and no one ever got to
ride the motorbikes on the cartrack because the was hustling

(28:25):
around these city streets, youknow, on this motorbike, and
everyone else was driving thesecars and they couldn't believe
it, but I was.
I always remember that, um, ifI had I mean, I got my first
motorbike was a road bike when Iwas.
I must have been 18, 19, maybe20, um, but if I'd had them as a
teenager, I think I would haveseriously hurt myself yeah, yeah
, no.

Speaker 1 (28:36):
Well, that would have been a lot of fun for a kid too
.

Speaker 2 (28:39):
I remember that track .

Speaker 1 (28:41):
I think it had closed down by the time I moved to
Crossroads.
Yeah, yeah, no, I think myfather.
We used to go on Sunday drivesand that with my father when I
was a kid and we came across amotocross race and my father
stopped and we watched it and Ifell in love with bikes.
Then I fell in love with them.
So I used to go to the Hondashop and that when I was a kid
and look at all that, and therewas one just like that, but the

(29:02):
little Hondas 100s or whateverthey are, and I used to always
hound my parents can I have amotorbike?

Speaker 2 (29:08):
can I have one of those, can I?

Speaker 1 (29:09):
because I would have loved that was sport too.
No, yeah, I mean I was the samedad had a XR250 like a 1979
maybe or early 80s XR250 early Amodel ones.

Speaker 2 (29:24):
Yeah, yeah, it had a round headlight at the front,
I'm pretty sure, and a steeltank.
Yeah, no, it had a plastic, hemight have put a different tank
on it but it had a plastic kindof like ambery tank, I think,
but it, um, he used to dowheelies down the drive.
Well, not wheelies, but he usedto, I used to.
I felt like he's getting thefront wheel off the ground down
the driveway, but he probablywasn't, it was probably just
high on the suspension, um, andI just used to be like that's so

(29:46):
cool.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yeah, well, my, I mean, motorbikes have always
been a big part of my life.
My brother, my brother, had a.
It was a um, uh, it was a uh.
I can't remember what it was itwas, but it was a 400 trail
bike but made for the road Horsetrail.
Yeah, and I'd come over fromschool and he'd look over at me

(30:10):
and go want to go for a ride.
I'd go, yeah, yeah, and I'd getall excited.
He'd chuck me on the back andhe was really good, he could
pull a wheel stand.
He'd pull a wheel stand with meon the back of it from one side
of Napier to the other.
He'd slow down for the lights.
He'd slow down for the lights.
He'd turn corners, staying onthe back wheel, still on the
back wheel.
He was a bit of an evil Knievelyeah, yeah and I used to.
It was just the most awesomething world.

(30:34):
You know I loved it and he knewthat, so that's why he sort of
did that for me.
I used to look around when Iwas on the back like holding on
to him looking around for matesto someone that I knew to wave
to.
But yeah, yeah, never did,never happened like that, but
now it was good.
Yeah, I love motorbikes, butyeah, yep, yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
I know I definitely would have been the same if I
had an older brother that wasinto them.
I would have been just the same.
Um, so you mentioned uh earlierto me as well.
Well, that there was oneturning point in your early life
was when you stepped out at thepub.
Can you tell me?

Speaker 1 (31:02):
about that?
Yeah, I think I would have beenabout 17, like young, just
turned 17 maybe and I had justgot in with my girlfriend, Susan
, and we were at the pub.
We were young, but in thosedays there was no real strong
laws against underage drinking,so it was pretty laid back.

(31:23):
So we were in the West Shorepub and a guy that I knew he
sort of knew my sisters and mybrother and things like that but
he was way older, he wasprobably about 26, something
like that.
I was playing pool and he justwalked up in front of the whole
pub and stepped me out, Accusedme of stealing his brother's

(31:43):
dope plants.
Well, it wasn't me.
I knew nothing about it, Ididn't know what he was talking
about.
So he was stepping me out and Iwas a bit scared.
I was only young and this guywas a lot bigger and badder than
me and he was stepping me outand I was going no, I'm not
going out.
So I sort of I was dropping mynuts, to be honest, and my
girlfriend at the time she wasgoing go out with them, go out

(32:06):
with them.
I've seen you fight, you'll beatthem.
And I was going shut the fuckup.
And so I was like I mean tomake dropping my nuts.
I didn't go outside with him.
I woke up the next morning.
I got really drunk that night,woke up the next morning and I
just felt terrible.
I had a really bad feeling andI made a vow to myself I'll

(32:27):
never do that again.
I felt shame.
It was just complete shamebecause it was happening in
front of the whole pub, people Iknew.
I said I made a vow to myselffor that moment.
I'll never, ever back down toanybody again, even if it kills
me.
I'll never do that again.
And I kept to it and, yeah, sothat was another turning point
in my life that changedeverything.
Yeah, so, because I startedlike fighting, I started

(32:49):
fighting back Right after that.
Yeah, after that, and a lot ofthe people that I got stepped
out by was in pubs and it was bybigger guys and older guys and
things like that.
But I just thought, alright,and then I actually, to my
surprise, I was winning most ofthem and I thought, shit, I'm

(33:10):
better than I actually thought Iwas.
So I sort of started getting abit of a reputation around my
mates and things like that thatI was quite a good fighter at
that time when I was young.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
Right.
Yeah, I can see how that wouldbe a turning point.
You kind of see you fall into aspace where you're like
actually I'm more capable than Ithought.

Speaker 1 (33:29):
Yeah, well, I started not being scared of people and
I sort of started building myconfidence up, it would yeah.
Because, like I said, I wasquite shy as a child and I sort
of got picked on too at school alittle bit, you know, which
sort of turned me into a bully,sometimes in school as well, to
other kids.
But yeah, no, when I startedrealising that I was winning a

(33:54):
lot of fights, well then I gotmy confidence up and then, yeah,
I started fighting a lot.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So then I got my confidence upand then I started fighting a
lot.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Even when I was bouncing Ididn't have a lot of confidence.
I remember that, and it was thearmy that helped with that.
I had to be a bit moreconfident.
But I still now even have waymore confidence now than I would
have had back when I wasyounger.
If I went back into those jobsnow, it'd be very different.
And I think that sometimes youneed experiences like that to
show you that you can beassertive.

Speaker 1 (34:20):
Well, even to not have an ego as well with it,
because once you get past that,then you don't really have to
prove yourself to people as well, and you'd know that with
karate too, martial arts andthat the more capable you are,
the less you feel you need toprove yourself.
Well, I even feel like that now.
Anyway, I think just beingolder and wiser and like I'd

(34:44):
laugh more, make a joke of theother person now.
It's way better to walk awayfrom a fight than have it, oh,
100%.
And plus, you don't know whattrouble it's going to end up in.
You're going to get locked up.
Oh, you could kill them.
You know just one punch lockedup.
You're going to kill them, justone punch.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
I talked to my son about it.
He has fights with his mates atschool.
They're not necessarilyphysical, but they could go that
way and it's them.
Often they're giving him shitfor something and he's really
much.
He's very much about playing bythe rules.
He's good at what he does.
If they're playing basketball,whatever, he's good at it.
But they call fouls and thingswhen it's not a foul and he's
like he just wants a ref therebut he doesn't have one.

(35:21):
So I say to them look, thesekids are jealous, because they
are often jealous of him and hisability.
And I say they don't playbasketball as much as you do,
they don't practice like you doand of course they're going to
have a problem with it, but thea compliment that's right.
They're not happy with who theyare, or they're not happy with

(35:41):
how things are going for them.
So the way that they can do itis by devaluing you as much as
they can.
And I said, if you're able towalk away from that, it actually
annoys them more, you know,because they those people for
long anyway, yeah, well, theyneed them.
Eh, you don't need people likethat, no.

Speaker 1 (35:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:59):
No.
So what was it that initiallylike moving on further into your
life or it probably wouldn'thave been that much further
along, but what was it that drewyou into the gang lifestyle, or
how did you become involvedinitially?

Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yeah, so, like I said , how me and my mate Dion and
that, we used to ride around onbikes and drive old Falkens, so
we used to get pulled up a lotbefore we were even old enough
to have a licence.
So I got pulled over a fewtimes and we got disqualified
without even having to go tocourt.
Right, I think the police justdid it on the side of the road.

Speaker 2 (36:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
Because it must have been the law back in those days,
being youth being underage, andthat they could disqualify you.
So I got disqualified a coupleof times, I think.
And then, when I actually cameof age, I got pulled up for a

(36:54):
drunken driving charge and I gotdisqualified from that.
I got through that, did PD andperiodic detention and that.
And then I got disqualifiedfrom that.
I got through that, did PD andperiodic detention and that.
And then I got pulled overagain and this time I was quite
hard done by because I wasdisqualified at the time, still
from that time, and we were atmy mum's house and my sister
wanted to get out.
My mum's car was behind me.
They said can you move the car?

(37:14):
I pulled out of the drivewayand pulled it up to the side of
the road so she could get outand a couple of cops went past
and saw me pulling the car out.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
Did they recognise you?

Speaker 1 (37:23):
Yeah, yeah, they recognised me.
So they pulled over and said,Kevin, you're disqualified.
And I said, no, I'm just movingthe car so my sister could get
out and my sister was at thedoor.
Yeah, right and they said itdoesn't matter, we don't care,
keys are in the ignition andyou're on the public road, so
you'll be having your drivingwhile disqualified.
So that was probably look wouldhave been maybe my third time

(37:43):
ever being disqualified.
I wasn't drunk and driving,nothing like that.
I went to court for it.
I just had my first son too.
Just had my first son, and hewas a baby, and I went to court
not thinking much of it and Igot 15 months jail and I was
like whoa, wow, that was a shock, so I wasn't expecting that.
I went to jail.

(38:03):
I got put in the Mangaroa ithad just been built then in
Hawke's Bay, right.
I got put into my first day injail.
I got chucked into a wing fullof gang members and it was high
security, it was a high mediumand there was no room somewhere
else.
The screws said but I gotchucked into this and it was all

(38:27):
of this one gang and just me,and I got chucked in there First
day in jail, got taken to mycell, I left there and then
everything just went dark andall these big, bad-looking gang
members walked in allfoul-masked and that and they

(38:49):
couldn't even all fit in myself.
They all just crowded myself andsaid who are you?
And I told them who I was andthey said where are you from?
And I said not, napier.
And they said who are you with?
And this is how green I was Atthe time go, oh no, I just came
in by myself.
And they go no, no, who you with?
And I go, no, just me.
And the screw came in and Iwent well, bro, what gang are
you with?

(39:09):
And I oh no.
And I answered this completelywrong.
I says I said um, oh, no, I'mnot with any gang.
But what I should haveexplained was I knew a lot of
the gang, I loved where the gangcame from and a lot of my mates
were in the gang.
But I didn't.
I just said no, no, I'm notwith any gang.
And they said well, if you'renot one of us, when you come in

(39:30):
here you get smashed over, right, oh, awesome.
And it was just about to happen.
It was just about to happen.
I was just about to get ahiding and then the grill opened
up, so they stopped and a guywalked past.
Another gang member walked pastand as he walked past the
Marcel door he goes oh, keef hey, bro, what are you up to?
And I go and he looked aroundand he goes oh no, no, this

(39:50):
fella's all right, he's fromwhere I'm from, and so that
saved my ass that day at themoment.
But I was in there for a coupleof months in that wing and it
was a terrible, terrible time Igot beaten up since David picked
on.

Speaker 2 (40:07):
Did they give you the opportunity to sign on with
them at that point at all?

Speaker 1 (40:11):
Oh, that's where it was going to.
That's where it was going to,but I just, I mean not at that
stage.
Not at that stage.
I don't think I was worthy atthat stage.
They saw it that way.
Well, I'm not sure I'm justthat's what I thought.
I probably wasn't worthy at thatstage.
I was green.
I was green stupid day.
I was just being used as a.
I was just an idiot, just apunching bag yeah, pretty much

(40:34):
so, even going up to play touch.
These were big musty gangmembers.
As we were playing touch, Ithink I'm going to get touched
and I just bam and get smashedinto the side of the wall
concrete wall and just litacross the asphalt.
I remember going back to my cellone day after a game of touch
and I was just covered in grazes.
My whole body was sore and Ijust went and closed the door

(40:58):
and I was trying not to cry.
I was trying, I just wanted tocry, you know, and it was a
pretty hard time.
But that was my first leg andthen I went.
I thought all my blessings cameat once.
The judge came and said I'mbeing moved up to Napier Hill
and Napier Hill was the oldestprison in the country at the
time and it only held like 65inmates.
And so I got shipped to NapierHill and it was awesome from

(41:22):
where I came from to there and Iknew a lot of people in there
and it was just a cosy littleprison and it was really good,
so I loved it.

Speaker 2 (41:28):
Bit of a holiday.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, from where I came from, that was
the Hilton, you know.
And so I was there three daysand then 10 people had to be
shipped out because the jail,they needed to make room.
And I was there three days andthen 10 people had to be shipped
out because they needed to makeroom, and I was one of them,
one of the names picked out, sothey shipped me off to.
I went to Rangipo Central andthere was a full-on prison For a

(41:53):
young fellow like me.
Just come from a shit placethen to a good place and then
got to a worse place, even worsethan the first one, worse than
the first one, but I wasn't soenclosed.
No, the first one there wasprobably like 10 of us and all
the rest of the gang the samegang, yeah, but these guys were

(42:15):
all doing life.
10 years, 14 years, theyweren't no small time.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
By the time you got to that third place did you have
your wits about you a littlebit more?

Speaker 1 (42:24):
No, no, I mean, I was still green, I still didn't
want to be there.
I was still sort of getting usedto it and plus, I was hating
where I was for the first twomonths but then I loved where I
was the next time but stilldidn't want to be there.
And then we got shipped to thisplace.
This place was worse than thefirst place.
There was 85 cells in each wing.

(42:48):
There was two wings and 85cells and most of them they were
just about all double cells.
Oh wow, I mean, do the math.
One wing was Munger Mob Mobwing and the other wing was
Black Power and all these guys.
This was central North Island,so these guys come from like
Parry Albany all over.

(43:08):
It's coming off their big legsand doing their last couple of
years at this place.
So it wasn't.
Even though it was a minimumsecurity low, medium, high
medium it wasn't no easy placeto be at and you just felt the
tension when you come Becausethe Black Power ran one wing and

(43:30):
the Mangamob ran the other wing, so if you were in one wing you
weren't allowed to go to the itwas all segregated.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
They'd keep them completely segregated.
Yeah, completely.

Speaker 1 (43:40):
Well, the inmates made it that way, right, like if
you were from this wing and youwalked into that wing, could
you go into the other wing.
No, no, no, no, you'd getattacked, you'd get attacked
stabbed.
But I mean, would the screwslet you go to the stage?

(44:01):
So did you share a yard?
Yeah, it was one big yard.

Speaker 2 (44:02):
It was huge, probably about two football fields and
was it unlocked all day?

Speaker 1 (44:08):
Yeah, unlocked all day.
Yeah, both wings are unlockedall day.
You can move about, but it wasa working unit as well, so it
was winter.
It was winter, it was brutallycold.
This was in Rangipo.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
Central Plateau.
Is it around there?

Speaker 1 (44:21):
Yeah, by the desert road, on the desert road.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
Yeah, I lived in Wauru for three months.
It was cold.

Speaker 1 (44:27):
Yeah, freezing cold, but not much oxygen there either
.
No, no, so I mean, and thewindows, like slate windows,
they didn't have any, it wasjust bars, so it was just
blizzardly oh really Openwindows.
Yeah, they didn't have any, itwas just bars.
Oh really Open windows.
Yeah, blizzardly cold, and theyhad the old grey blankets and
that, but yeah, it was reallycold and snowing so you had to

(44:49):
go to work in the snow and lowpruning and doing things like
that I was lucky, because of myinjury, I ended up getting off
that and I got a job in the yardand if you didn't work well,
then you were locked up tilllunchtime anyway.
But this was a very, veryviolent jail.
I'd seen a lot of violence inthat jail.
I got I got beaten up for itwas just nothing.

(45:12):
I mean it was.
I didn't actually do anythingwrong and I just got beaten up
because I got picked on by thisgang member and got my arm
broken and things like that.
So I didn't say anything, Ijust didn't turn up to dinner
one night I saw guys get stabbed.
I saw a guy get stabbed throughthe throat through one side
with a chisel and came right outthe other side.

(45:35):
He nearly died.
I seen another guy get stabbedlike probably 20 times.
I saw another guy, another guy,this big Islander guy get
stabbed like 200 times withsharpened up toothbrushes.
Did he survive?

Speaker 2 (45:46):
yeah, yeah, he survived, fuck, but he had a lot
of holes in him, yeah wow, likeyou just think when you hear
someone say that, oh, he wasstabbed in the hundreds of times
you wouldn't ever think someonewould live through that it was
sharpened up toothbrushessharpened to a point he got
stabbed probably about five guysstabbing him up and he lived

(46:08):
lucky.
It was just shallow stabs andthe intention was to kill him,
obviously well, just teach him alesson, I suppose.
I always remember going from amedium security unit to a
minimum security and gettingmetal cutlery.

Speaker 1 (46:21):
Yeah, yeah, You're thinking you give this to
everyone, Like what the fuck.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
Or even the gym equipment you know full, like
lat pull-down bars, yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
Or you know the bars for cables and things.
Yeah, big heavy steel weights,everything Dumbbells.
You sure it's like a pull cue?
Yeah, I saw it.
Sorry, I had a mate thatattacked another guy in the
carving yard in Napier Hill frombehind with a dumbbell and
turned him into a vegetable.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
Yeah, Well, didn't.
Who was it?
There's a movie that wassomeone was killed with gym
equipment.
There's a movie made about them.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
Was it an Australian Ruby?
Was it Carl Williams?
I don't know.
You got cool gym equipment,yeah it was a.

Speaker 2 (47:04):
There's a in the movie.
He gets beaten.
He gets beaten.
His head is basically he cavedin with a dumbbell, I'm pretty
sure.
Um, yeah, and I think thescrews were in on it.
They knew that, that guy thatwas the intention behind it
anyway, but I think, yeah,obviously, when I was in the
medium security unit, it wasbroomsticks and water bottles

(47:25):
was what they trained with.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's allthey have.
Yeah, yeah, and a guy sitting onyour shoulders while you're
doing squats yeah, doing squatsor they're pulling your heels
back for hamstring kills andthings yeah, it's a different
world yeah, some of those, someof those exercises were getting
a bit gay.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
Yeah, I was going.
Oh, I don't know if I want that, because on the back of my neck
yeah, that's right yeah butit's you go, you do it, bro,
that's not going to be the worst.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
It'll be fucking bad yeah but yeah, I mean.

Speaker 1 (47:56):
So I mean this is still my first leg and it was a
very intense jail, very intenseprison.
I got beaten up by one of thegang members for not sharing a
joint that I had, I think, andso I got my arm broken.
I didn't say anything, but Ididn't turn up to dinner, did?

Speaker 2 (48:17):
you know it was broken?
No, no, I just saw.
I saw all over my face.
Was out here a dinner.
So did you know it was broken?
Like no, no, I just saw.
I saw all over my face.

Speaker 1 (48:21):
It was out here because everyone had steel caps.
It was a working unit, so I gotmy face kicked in by steel caps
and things like that.
So I was in a bit of a mess butI and I didn't feel like going
to dinner no, fair enough soscrews came to see why, because
they must have checked where Iwas.
And then, when they seen me,they went oh, and I said no, no,
no, they went.
Who was it?

(48:41):
They were trying to get me tosay who it was.
I wouldn't say anything, sothey chucked me in the pound.
They threw me in the pound Fornot saying.
Yeah, for both things for notsaying and for my own protection
.
But I didn't do that.
So they put me on protectivesegregation for my own good, but
anyway.
But it ended up working outgood for me, because I was in

(49:03):
the pound for a week, which wasshit.
And I was in the pound for aweek and then the unit manager
came in, had a look at me andsaid send them back to Napier.
So I ended up going back toNapier.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
So it all worked out right.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
Oh, you're sweet, but by then I ended up.
I went back to Mangaroa prisonand was back with the gang again
and, to make a long story short, by the time I got out of
prison I was in the gang, youwere in that gang and did you

(49:36):
feel at that point that it was a?

Speaker 2 (49:39):
Had it become a lifestyle for you at that point,
or was it?
Did you feel like it was a gooddecision?

Speaker 1 (49:42):
No, no, I didn't.
I didn't really want to, but Isort of had no choice, right.
Yeah Well, I sort of did, butat the time I was too scared to
say no.
At the time, I mean, I wasstill only young.
But I ended up coming out.
But when I did make thisdecision, I did know then or you

(50:04):
make this decision, that's it.
It's long term.
Yeah, you know you're in therefor good.
You're stuck there, so don'tjust get out of jail and then do
the runner and when you, whenyou were in jail, did you
maintain connections with family?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
When you were in jail, did youmaintain connections with family
?
Yeah, yeah, I still was part ofmy family.
I had another child by then aswell.

(50:28):
My children grew up, but Ialways kept the gang away from
my family.

Speaker 2 (50:34):
Because it does get.
For a lot of families.
It gets heavily integrated.

Speaker 1 (50:37):
Yeah, so where I came from, most of that gang was
born into the gang anyway.
Right, you're either born intoit or you lived it, so it was
actually a lifestyle.
A lot of people didn't reallyhave a choice they were born
into it.
It's their family values, yeahbut I was the only person in my
family even not my immediatefamily, my cousins and that I

(50:57):
was the only person in my familyeven not my immediate family,
my cousins and that I was theonly one that ever joined the
gang.
Right, but yeah, so thathappened and I was in a gang,
but my mates always used to tryand get me to join the gang
anyway, the mates that I used togo to school with.
I was really good.
I had a good mate who I went toschool with and he ended up

(51:18):
being sergeant of arms of thisgang and he'd pull over on his
Harley and say that oh, you know, we want you to jump on with us
, because at that stage, once Icame out of jail I mean I
believe every man should do alittle bit of jail I've always
thought, because it wakes you up, it would, I know yeah, I mean
it wakes you up to life Becauseit wakes you up, it would I know

(51:39):
.

Speaker 2 (51:39):
Yeah, it wakes you up to life.
It shows you what you've got tolose that's right and how bad
it can get.

Speaker 1 (51:45):
I reckon just even a few months, just go in there for
a few months and you're eithernever able to go to jail again
or you do.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
I almost agree.
I agree with you because I usedto say that about the military.
I think for most men it wouldbe good for them to do three
months a year.
Even a year in the militarywould be great for most everyone
.
But if everyone did a bit ofjail it would certainly change a
lot of people.

Speaker 1 (52:03):
It would definitely change a lot of people.
It would definitely wake a lotof people up.
You have to adjust overnight.

Speaker 2 (52:09):
Yeah, and you start to appreciate the simple things.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
Yes, that's right and the simple things are what you
miss.
Yeah, that's right.
And after I got out of hospitalI went in.
It was the second time me andmy mate Dion went and jumped on
the scheme because we were bored, had nothing to do.
It was a YMCA scheme and so atthe end of that Dion got into
too much mischief.

(52:31):
He got sent to CT correctivetraining at the time back then
and so I was sort of all aloneand we finished doing the course
and the guys that were runningthe course said you should jump
on this thing.
There was a pilot course comingup and it was run by the army
and it was called the NapierKerea Academy.
So I went oh yeah, I'll give ita go.
I had nothing else to do.

(52:51):
So I went and gave it a go andafter my accident I'd never ran.
I still had a bad limp andthings and this was out in
Estale at a place called BeckHouse.
So I got taken out there andyou lived there, you lived in.
It was like going to the army.
It was the cadet course, yep,and it was for sort of youth
that were sort of on their wayto being bad or trying to save

(53:14):
them and things like that, andit was all about discipline and
all that.
So I didn't know what I'd gotmyself into right.
Uh, we got there and we were indormitories and and that and um
went to bed and they had dinnerand it went to bed and and weird
was like I think there was fourof us in the room in a
dormitory and so about 4 30 inthe morning, the alarm, the fire

(53:37):
alarm goes off and we'll get upand I'm wondering what's going
on.
We go oh, we all have to line upoutside.
So we all line up outside andwe're actually standing in a
group and out of the dark youjust hear this voice screaming
get the fuck out of this fuckingbed, you fucking lazy cunts.
And it was really and we'relike what the fuck's going on

(53:57):
here?
And Sergeant Smith was the nameand he was a, he was a hard man
and he come and just yellingand screaming and we were all
just in line, lined up in oursquad and then and we were off
for a run.
We were off for a run, a 7k run.
The first one was I hadn't run,but being yelled and screamed
at.
It was a slow cadence anyway.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
How was your leg at that point.

Speaker 1 (54:18):
Well, it wasn't good, but I didn't even think I could
run.
I'd never tried to run becauseI knew I had that injury.
But being yelled and screamedat, I ran just with everybody
else.
And actually at the end of the.
It was a six week course, thefirst pilot course, and it was
all fitness.
It was all fitness.
We had to run everywhere.
We had confidence courses inthe afternoon or sport like

(54:40):
touch rugby or basketball.
Then there was education andthen there was marching.
You'd be taught to march on theparade ground and things like
that, and I just did everything.
I didn't even think about itand the runs were quite slow at
first, in cadence.

Speaker 2 (54:56):
They're always generally like a manageable pace
for a long period.

Speaker 1 (54:59):
Yeah, yeah, and then until we had to wear packs with
rocks in them and things likethat and do stretcher carries
and confidence courses andthings like that, that was
pretty.
Then it got hard.
You would have come out prettyfit, very, very fit, very fit.
And actually on our mark shoutday at the end of the six weeks
we had a parade and we were allin tuxedos and things like that

(55:19):
and we had a formal dinner andspeeches and things like that
and I got asked to do a speech.
So I did a speech and as I waswalking up to do the speech,
sergeant Smith got up and saidoh, this guy has had a really
bad accident with his leg, andthat Because he mentioned in his
speech how many kilometres wehad run in that whole six weeks.
And he said this guy ran thewhole so many hundreds.

(55:42):
He acknowledged you for that.
Yeah, so yeah, and I didn'treally think much, I just knew I
had to.

Speaker 2 (55:48):
He yelled and screamed You're just doing what
everyone's doing.
I was just doing what everyonewas doing, exactly that's right
that's right.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
So I actually got promoted after that and I had a
chance to stay, so I ended upstaying on there.
I stayed there for three yearsCool Three years.
I was staying there and endedup becoming staff and then I was
teaching the.
Oh, that would have been good.
Yeah, I ended up making it to aregimental.
No, this is cadet ranks.
I'm a regimental sergeant majorso I got to the highest rank

(56:13):
you can get to and I wasteaching marching and
playgrounds and taking coursesand things like that.

Speaker 2 (56:21):
Yeah, I really miss the army.
I remember it as being goodtimes, but it was also
definitely hard.
It's hard fucking work and alot of being cold and miserable.

Speaker 1 (56:31):
Yeah, it was good.
We had to go do some Biblecourses in the bush and things
like that for a week and go havea ration pack.
We were eating goats and allsorts of bloody things.
It was good.
It was good to go through that.
I'm glad.
Very character building.
Oh, definitely, definitely.
It taught me some disciplineand structure and routine and
that as well.

Speaker 2 (56:51):
So, yeah, you can see the value in it.
Eh, definitely yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:54):
I wish I had.
I was actually going to jointhe army afterwards, but I got
into trouble.
That's when I got into trouble.
I ended up with PD.
I was driving my motorcycle upon that.
Pd went to jail.

Speaker 2 (57:02):
Oh yeah, so that was military days over.

Speaker 1 (57:05):
Yeah, yeah and then yeah.
So it was that.

Speaker 2 (57:13):
Can you describe the moment, or was there an event or
anything like that, that madeyou realise, with the whole gang
lifestyle, that you were inpretty deep or that you got in
pretty deep?

Speaker 1 (57:18):
Yeah.
Well, I knew I was in prettydeep as soon as I said yes, as
soon as I joined, yeah, and so Iknew my life was going to be
very much different then, and Iremember saying to myself you
know, because you said yes,because you joined, that's you

(57:40):
now you know, you've got tostick at it and keep loyal.
So I did, I did.
And when you say getting inpretty deep, well, you soon
realise that when you go intowar, and you're actually being
shot at and you're shooting backat people and things like that.
So it was a pretty intense time.
So I forgot to mention as wellmy mate Dion, who I grew up with

(58:01):
.
We became really good mates, webecame brothers you know, he
was like the brother that I had.
Well, we became brothers.
We were very close.
We did everything together.
He ended up joining the gang aswell, right, so we were in the
gang together as well, and Iremember there was this time
where we were at war andeverything was.
Everyone was on edge and veryintense time.

Speaker 2 (58:24):
So what does at war mean?

Speaker 1 (58:26):
We were warring with another gang, so is it?

Speaker 2 (58:29):
like a state that's declared.
So basically, a situation hadhappened.

Speaker 1 (58:34):
Like when a situation happens, then everyone comes
and gets you.

Speaker 2 (58:38):
I remember being in prison that they said you know
something could happen either inprison or outside of prison.
That then meant there was likeattack on site orders issued and
all that kind of thing.
So like suddenly it's like oh,I don't want to do this, bro,
but I'm sorry, but I have toyeah.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
It just goes without saying and that's yeah.
That's the thing with the gangs.
You've got to back it up.

Speaker 2 (58:59):
And you're answerable to the higher calling, the
bigger structure that's there.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
So there was this time, I remember, where
everything was really intenseand everyone was on their toes
and wars happen because asituation happens where maybe
one side had been attacked orgot shot or something has
happened.
So the rest of the chapter allbacks it up and it becomes tit
for tat, yep.

(59:26):
Then this minute bullets startflying and you know.
So yeah, there was a time likethat Wrapped the pad and I never
really thought much of beingscared or anything, until you're
actually time to be scared.
So the build-up was probablyjust as bad as anything.

(59:47):
So me and my mate Dion well, hewas a character anyway, he was a
hard case guy we were crackingjokes, we were laughing and
cracking jokes and everyone elsewas really intense, so we
didn't really take it tooseriously.
We knew how serious it was butwe just didn't act serious Until
actually we were getting shotat then time to be serious.
So those times like that yourealise how deep we are.

(01:00:12):
But still, I knew when I madethe decision to join the gang
that I had to take the bad withthe good.
But I wanted to keep my badwith the good.
Yeah, but I wanted to keep mykids out of it and my family out
of it.
Yeah, fair enough.
Yeah, never take her home.
No, no, and I didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
So, throughout your time in the gang, what were some
of the biggest challenges orconflicts that you faced
internally?

Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
There's a lot of times I didn't feel like I
belonged in the gang.
There's a lot of times I didn'tfeel like I belonged in the
gang, right, I didn't feel I wasthat person.
I mean I couldn't really bullypeople if they had done nothing
wrong.
I mean I got into a bit ofalmost got into a few fights
sometimes with some of the othergang members because they'd say

(01:00:58):
, oh, you have to do this, youhave to be like this, you have
to be like that.
And I go, no, I don't, I justwant to be me.
So I can only be me.
If I'm not me, I'm not happy.
I don't want to be you, becausethen I'm not me, and so why
should I have to try and pretendto be somebody else?

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
So that was a lot of things that I'd conflicted, that
was conflicted.
Plus, I didn't realise that atthe time as well.
A lot of my thinking that Irealised things later on in life
that I think I had anxiety.
I used to get anxiety at thetime I didn't know what anxiety
was and sometimes I didn't wantto be around all these guys I

(01:01:41):
mean one-on-one.
I had a few real good closemates, a few close brothers that
I'd spent a lot of time withand that we knew each other
really well and I could just bemyself with them, but sometimes
we were in big groups.
You know it was quiteoverwhelming.

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
Yeah, I bet it would be.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
Yeah, yeah, especially this gang, and the
numbers are pretty high, like interms of there's thousands of
them, eh Like thousands ofpeople in those gangs, thousands
of them, yeah, and a lot ofthem are the baddest people I've
ever met.
They're the craziest psycho,staunchest, baddest guys yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
I remember thinking at times when I was up to no
good, just being a little bitoblivious to the types of people
that are out there being like,oh, if they come around, if
someone comes around and doesthat, I don't think they'd do
that.
Or I don't think they'd do that.
My mates would be like, bro,these guys out there, they
wouldn't care if there waspolice in your driveway, they're

(01:02:38):
still going to kick your door.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
Yeah, we used to be like that as well.
It wouldn't stop us, itwouldn't stop people.
I'll tell you one thing aboutthe gang that I was with was
quite staunch, like very angry,very staunch people, and if you,
if you didn't measure up to toanything or you sort of showed
weakness, you'd just get pickedon.

(01:03:04):
You'd get picked on by whetheryou're a patch member or not,
you know you'd get, you know,that sort of attitude.
But so you had that sort ofattitude, so you had to sort of
not show any weakness prettymuch.
And it was a very intimidatinggang, even though these were
your brothers still veryintimidating and a lot of
drinking.
There was a lot of drinking andparties and a lot of that.

(01:03:26):
There's a lot of times they gotout of hand and people got
beaten up just for the hell ofit.

Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
Yeah, and I guess when you throw substances in
there, you start people'spersonalities change and you
know, someone who might be yourbrother most of the time
suddenly has a bone to pick withyou over something.

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
Well, that's what I was going to say earlier as well
, sorry.
When I checked, what I noticedearly in the gang when I was
prospecting was my other matessome of my mates that were
prospecting as well.
Once they got their patch, theychanged.
I saw people change and theyput the patch on the next minute
.
Their walk changed.

(01:04:04):
They were like fuck, did yougrow muscles overnight?
Yeah, and then their attitudewould change and then they were
suddenly better than you and itwas like I thought that was
embarrassing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:14):
I'll never be like that and I wasn't.

Speaker 1 (01:04:16):
I never was so when I got, even when I became
president, I used to say when Ipatched a member up I'd say the
man makes the patch, the patchdoesn't make the man the patch
doesn't make the man.

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
Yeah, that's a good way to look at it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
Yeah, I thought it was embarrassing.
Don't embarrass yourself,because I saw it so many times.
A piece of a jacket doesn'tchange somebody.

Speaker 2 (01:04:38):
Nah, but I guess for them it's a sense of belonging,
but also they would have seenpeople wearing it.
It's like in the army when youget your uniform.
Yeah, when we got out of basictraining, four or five of us
went to the mall and just woreour uniform, honestly, because
you couldn't wait to show it off.
You couldn't wait to be like Ican wear this in public.
This is actually what I do andyou were proud of it.

(01:04:59):
You're proud because you'vejust been through three months
of basic training, plus sixweeks for me of core training,
which was combat training.
It was tough you get beasted.
It was physical.
You get beasted.
It was physical, it was veryphysical and very mentally and
emotionally exhausting yeah butI was going to ask did you, were
there times where you werewatching young fellas, where you
found it hard, did you?

(01:05:20):
Did you feel I guess was there,because there'd be times where
there'd be people that you'dhave empathy for that?
You're like fuck, I don't wantto see this guy get a hiding.
He's going to get a hiding.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
Yeah, oh, every time, yeah, every single time.
It was like oh, that would havehit oh shit yeah.
I've seen mates get knocked outin some big hits.

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
Yeah, I think it's kind of like in the military.
Again, it's my only realexperience with that kind of
thing.
But there was back differenttoo, really different.
Wasn't easy back then.
No, I can imagine.
Yeah, so betrayal can be apowerful turning point.

(01:05:58):
Could you discuss a time whereyou may have felt betrayed and
how that would have impactedyour view on loyalty?

Speaker 1 (01:06:04):
About the time that I left.
I knew I wanted to leave.
There was a couple of reasons.
I had become president.
I was president probably aboutfour or five years of a chapter
and I started a chapter up downhere down in South Island as
well, and I ran my chapter a lotmore like a family.

(01:06:32):
I loved my boys and tried toteach them the right way and
tried to do things better,because I didn't want to be
president.
When I got made president, Ididn't want the responsibility
of it.
But then I got told you dothings your own way.
No one can tell you what to do,it's your way and you do it the
way you want.
Pick your own members, and thatthat didn't actually happen.

(01:06:52):
I got sent a lot of membersfrom up north that I didn't
really want.
But so that was all right.
But I tried to do the rightthing.
I tried to teach them.
I had a lot of rules.
I wouldn't let them go outbullying people, standing over
people home and page nothing.
They weren't allowed to doanything like that.
Yeah, I tried to get them intobusiness.
I tried to get them intotraining like to EIT and got

(01:07:14):
them jobs.
Yeah, but then they didn'treally want to do it that way.
They wanted to be bullies.

Speaker 2 (01:07:20):
They were there to cause trouble.

Speaker 1 (01:07:22):
Yeah, they were all young.
They were all in their 20s,young 20s and that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
Trying to live the dream.

Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
Yeah, they just wanted to be gangsters?
Yeah, but I was trying to teachthem a different way.
You know, when you, you allwant bikes, you all want nice
cars and that, what about?
When you get them?
How are you going to keep them?
Because the cops just take themoff you.

Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
Yeah, that's right, they live in the out of your
means or proceeds of crime orwhatever, yeah, it's so easier,
it's so much easier now sorryfor the need a reason no, and
they can, even the proceeds ofcrime.
Stuff's changed to the pointwhere I think they can, even if
you register it under someoneelse's name they can still take
it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:56):
Yeah, I went through a bit of that, but so I tried to
teach them that what your goalshould be is, every one of you
should end up owning your ownbusiness.
Right, and we'll all get theretogether, right?
I says, if I'm going to be amillionaire, I'll bring yeah,
right, and we'll all get theretogether, right.
Yeah, I says, if I'm going tobe a millionaire, I'll bring

(01:08:17):
yous all up, we'll all bemillionaires.
Yeah, but it was harder than itsounded.
It was really hard to keep.
They'd get sack on purpose.

Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
Yeah, Because they don't really want that job all
day.

Speaker 1 (01:08:28):
You're really trying to change the culture.
Eh, yeah, yeah.
And I wanted to change the waypeople looked at us because
everywhere I went, I got sickand tired of getting blamed for
things or having that reputationthat you didn't earn.
Yeah, yeah.
And like I remember, there wasa time where a mate rang me up.
We had just moved out to aplace by Leaston, oh yeah, yeah,

(01:08:53):
and there was a burglary,probably about eight kilometres
away but in the country, and wehad just not long moved there to
a mate's place and I got aphone call from a guy that I
knew and he says oh, my mate,bro, I'm just ringing you to ask
you.
My mate in the area got rippedoff, got burgled and some bites
got taken and things like that.

(01:09:13):
He goes do you know anythingabout that?
And I said no, bro, I said wedon't do burglaries, things like
that, especially in our ownneighbourhood, we don't do that
sort of stuff.
And he goes no, I didn't thinkyou did, but it's just that when
the cops went and investigatedthe burglary, we know who did it
.
And then he said but we're notgoing to do anything about it
yet because we're waiting forbigger things.
And that alerted me to oh no,yeah, so they're watching us.

(01:09:36):
So I sort of at that time I wasdoing really well and I was
doing well with the gang and myboys.
We were going a long way, andnot long after that I got us a
pad and things like that.
But as time went on, I thought Ihad, after a few years of it,
I'd had enough, I'd had enough.
And I thought, well, you know,I'd actually turned 50.

(01:09:57):
And I thought, shit, what haveI done with my life?
All I'm doing is doing for thegang.
I've given so much and I justhad enough and I thought I
actually don't want to do thisanymore.
And so I had that in the backof my mind.
I was still doing what I had todo and it was tending to be

(01:10:20):
really stressful, trying to lookafter pretty much the
naughtiest boys in the countryreally and trying to keep them
on track, because whatever theydid, it came back on me and I
used to tell them because at thepolice station there's all your
pictures and at the top of thatpyramid is me.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
And they're going?
How can we link it to Kev andhow do we make sure that we know
that Kev told him to do this?

Speaker 1 (01:10:44):
Yeah, exactly, and they say everything that each
one of those individuals wasdoing they were going right and
then I'll say one day it's goingto go to court and I'm going to
say all these things that theseguys are doing is told by this
guy and it wasn't like that atall.
These fellas were doing a lot ofstuff behind my back too, so I
was sort of over that.

(01:11:05):
I was going oh man, I'm notgoing to do that.
They're not going to do that.
They'll try and give me a lifefor what these fellas are doing,
even though they weren'tkilling anybody.

Speaker 2 (01:11:12):
The police want to dismantle the whole thing.
And the best way to do that isto take out the guys at the top.

Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
Cut the head off the snake.

Speaker 2 (01:11:18):
in other words If they can pressure the younger
fellas into effectively givingup people who are more senior in
the club that works out bestfor the police.

Speaker 1 (01:11:27):
Yeah, but it wouldn't have stopped anything anyway.
They that works out best forthe police.
Yeah, but it wouldn't havestopped anything.

Speaker 2 (01:11:32):
anyway, they can get rid of me and another one just
takes the place, Someone elsewould just pop in.

Speaker 1 (01:11:34):
Yeah, yeah.
And actually I used to say ifthe cops knew what I was, trying
to do.

Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
They'd probably shake my hand, they'd probably keep
you there, yeah, if they knewwhat I was trying to do.

Speaker 1 (01:11:42):
Good things, but you know, it wasn't like that.
You become your enemy and youjust never get left alone.
They're trying to destroy youas much as other people are
trying to destroy you.
Yeah, so that was one of thereasons it was coming up to that
I'd sort of had enough.
I thought, what have I donewith my life?
I want to sort of do family andthat now.
So that was one of the reasons.

(01:12:05):
Another reason was one of theguys he made himself a president
because he got really jealousand bitter about me being made a
president.
He didn't like it, so he wantedto be made a president.
So he made himself a president.
Quite a staunch fella.
He was quite tough, very much aviolent, very violent,

(01:12:25):
warmonger type person, notsomeone to be messed with, no,
very serious.
And so he wanted me to help himstart up this chapter that he
wanted to do.
But it was all in hindsight.
It was all a little bit of asetup.
I had a lot of vehicles and Ihad a lot of toys and cars,
bikes Yep, he was in jail.

(01:12:46):
I sort of helped him out whenhe got out of jail.
I helped him out At jail jail.
I gave him a bike, gave him aHarley and gave him a couple of
cars and gave him some money andthings like that.
He had something else in hishead.
I could tell I could.
So he came out to take over thechapter and I and I wanted to
stand down the chapter.
You were running the chapter.
I was running yeah, and I wantedto stand down because I didn't

(01:13:07):
want to do it anymore and I wasjust going to go out and work
and just start living a normallife.
That was okay.
Well, I could tell somethingwas going on.
Something was going on becausethe boys weren't very good at
hiding the stuff.
They were having meetingsbehind my back.
This guy was trying to destroyme.
He wanted to destroy me and hewanted to.
It was like a coup, yeah wellit was, but I mean he didn't

(01:13:30):
need to.

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
I mean, I was happy to hand it over to him.
You didn't step down anyway.

Speaker 1 (01:13:33):
Yeah, I wanted to hand it over to him.
So I knew something was up.
So I thought, well, I'm goingto the partner that I had at the
time.
We started working out on adairy farm and I knew I could
feel something was up.
So I knew I could feelsomething was up, so I started
putting my cars and that away.
I had El Caminos and El Caminoand some other V8s and I sort of

(01:13:55):
put cars away at friends'houses and sort of kept it, just
kept one step ahead, because Iknew I couldn't go and say, hey,
is this?
I feel like this is happening,are you doing this?
And they'd just say, how dareyou?
So you know it'd be like that.
So I couldn't really talk aboutit or get the truth out of them
.
But I knew something was up andso what happened was they got

(01:14:18):
to the person that I was with atthe time I was having a bad
relationship I was in a badrelationship at the time as well
the person that I moved out tothe dairy farm with and she had
different agendas as well.
Well, and they got to her andthey sort of told her we're
trying to get you locked up sowe can get all this stuff and
we'll cut you in on it andthings like that.

(01:14:39):
So she did and this wasn't agood relationship.
Anyway I did this person, so Ilearnt the hard way with that
one.
So I ended up going to jail forsomething very minor that got
turned into something very bigand I went to jail for that.
And then that's when thebetrayal really really hit me,
as I lost my job, lost the placeI was living at, lost my

(01:15:04):
girlfriend, and they mygirlfriend showed them where all
my cars and that were.
So they went round to every oneof my friends who were just
straight people, straightinnocent people who weren't used
to this life.
They were just friends of minewho were helping me out and
looking after my cars and thingslike that.
Well, they went around to everyone of those places and stood
over those people and threatenedthem and made them hand over my

(01:15:25):
vehicles and things like that.
So I lost everything.
I lost everything when I wentto jail for seven months only
seven months and awful damageand things like that.
It was just really ridiculous.
So I went to jail for that.
All this happened to me while Iwas in there.
I was falling into depression.
Anyway, being with this person.
I didn't know what depressionwas, because I never I didn't

(01:15:47):
know what it was.
I never had depression orwhatever.
But she was sort of gaslightingme.
In hindsight now I realise nowthat that's what she was doing.
I thought I was the crazy onethat all this bad stuff was
happening in our relationshipbecause of me.
She was blaming it all on me.
It's different when somebodyknows where they're going or

(01:16:10):
something and somebody doesn't.
It's easy to manipulate,absolutely.
So that was happening at thetime.
I went to jail for what I wentto jail for.
They all went around.
I wasn't even in jail for aweek and they went around and
got all my cars and all mypossessions house, bus and

(01:16:31):
everything like that.
So I got everything taken fromme.
I was already in depressionbefore I went to jail and that
just made it worse.
I mean, a lot of people thinkso it got that bad.
I tried to commit suicide injail and it wasn't because I was
in jail.
I've done a lot of jail all mylife Not all my life but I've

(01:16:52):
done a lot of jail, lads, and itdoesn't worry me, I can get
through it.
But it wasn't because I was injail.
It was because of what washappening.
I just had enough you hadenough of the depression that I
was going through and that's whyI don't mind talking about this
.
I mean, to a lot of people thiswould be embarrassing to talk
about, but I don't mind talkingabout it because it shows the

(01:17:12):
power of depression of someonethat's got depression.
So when I left the gang, I meanit was hard enough as it was.
I had no support from anybodyor anything like that, so I had
to do it all on my own.
I knew that there was aconsequence from leaving the
gang.
I had to do it all on my own.
I knew that there was aconsequence from leaving the

(01:17:34):
gang.
The depression got me so badthat I was thinking of
committing suicide and I justwanted it over.
And it wasn't really what washappening to me.
It was just a mixture ofeverything happening to me.
And I was getting depression andI was going out.
I'd given up drugs.
I'd given up trying to give updrinking, but I hadn't yet.
I'd given up drugs.
I'd given up trying to give updrinking, but I hadn't yet.
But I'd given up drugs.

(01:17:54):
I'd been on drugs for a longtime, a lot of my life, and so
it was all a mixture of things,a mixture of just having a bad
partner who had hidden agendas,a mixture of all the boys that I
had looked after and helped outand mates that I'd helped out.
They had turned on me andwanted to because of this one

(01:18:15):
person that wanted to destroy meand he did.
He destroyed my life at thetime and then getting chucked in
jail and having all this takenfrom me I just had depression
was that strong that I wanted tocommit suicide, but I was
trying to talk myself out of it.
I was going you can't do that.

(01:18:35):
You've got seven children,you've got seven grandchildren,
you've got a big family thatloves you, and you'll ruin your
children's life.
For starters, everyone will bedevastated.
So it wasn't even enough tostop me.
It wasn't even enough to stopme.
So I did that.
I tried to commit suicide, andwhen I tried to do it too, I
thought you've got to make thiswork.

(01:18:57):
You've got to make this happen,because I'm in jail now and the
shame and embarrassment that I'dhave living through it and then
having to live on in jail withthe shame of trying to kill
myself.
That's what I thought.
So I did a real attempt at it,right, and got rushed to
hospital, saved my life and thenended up living for it and sort

(01:19:20):
of yeah, and the depression gotworse and went into a deep dark
hole, really pretty much Gotchucked into the ICU unit.

Speaker 2 (01:19:30):
Yeah, because that's what happens.
Just a lot of fun.
Yeah, that's what happens andit's like in a concrete box
Lights on all the time Like adog kennel, you've got a camera
in there.

Speaker 1 (01:19:39):
It's like you're in a dog kennel Right and you're
eating with a.
You get slid a paper plate withyour meal on it with cardboard
fork and spoon and it's prettymuch it was like being in a dog
kennel.
And so that didn't help with thedepression and one of the

(01:20:03):
reasons why it helped me leavethe gang as well is because I
met this lady called her name isTania Whitaker and she's a
clear voyeur and she came to doa cleansing on the house on my
kid's mum's house and I met herand she shook my hand and said
oh, you're really strong, youshould be doing what I'm doing.
And I didn't know what she wastalking about and what she meant

(01:20:25):
was.
She said I had gifts, thatspiritual gifts, that, and I
didn't realise that I had andhad gifts, spiritual gifts, and
I didn't realise that I had.
And so she did a reading on meand she got my trust straight
away because in saying this, mymate that I was saying my mate,
dion, who he he had passed aswell, he had passed away.
So he was my best mate and myother mate as well, carl, who I

(01:20:49):
grew up with.
We all used to get up tomischief before I joined the
gang.
He passed away in a car mate aswell, carl, who I grew up with
and we all used to get up tomischief with before I joined
the gang.
He passed away in a caraccident as well.
So my closest mates that I hadhad they all had passed away.
I was the only one left out ofthem, so my father had passed
away while I was in jail and mybrother from years ago had
passed away.
She did a reading on me andthese three people came through

(01:21:14):
Dion, my father and my brotherand she was telling me things
that they were saying.
And when she told me what myfather was saying to me, she
said it exactly how he would sayit and things he was saying.
Sorry about things and sorryfor it.
And then my brother came in andsaid sorry for leaving you
behind, you know which.
It all meant something.

(01:21:35):
And when she'd tell me whateach person was saying, she'd
say it exactly how they say it.
See, this person didn't knownothing about me.
How powerful.
Yeah it was the first time I'dmet her, so I was like blown
away.
And then the most powerful wasum, when Dion came through, she
said there's a guy who's showingme a tattoo of writing on his
arm and I and I went what thatone?

(01:21:56):
She goes, that's it.
She goes, he did that.
And I, yeah, and she goes, seeyour best mate, you're like
brothers.
And I, yeah, she goes, he's ahard case, he's a character.
And I, yeah, that's him,because he's walking around
sitting next to you right nowlooking at you going.
I used to do that all the time.
I used to do that, so I knewshe was legit straight away.
And she actually told me aboutthis time when I was telling you
about how we were crackingjokes and we were at war in an

(01:22:17):
intense time.
I'd never even thought abouttalking about that to anybody.
So no one even knew that, andshe told me about that.
He was saying she goes, he'stalking about this time when
news were doing it and I aboutthis time when yous were doing
and and I oh, and and.
So I knew she was legit, I knewthat this was real and I, so
she got my trust straight away.
Right, we ended up becominggood friends and, um, she took
me under her wing and startedshowing me the gifts that I had,

(01:22:40):
you know, healing and thingslike that.
So so I realized at that stagethat was another road to take,
another journey for me.
So I, I've got another path totake.
This is I'd rather be doingthis, the spiritual work, you
know.
And so it was really intriguingto me and what she told.
I didn't believe her at first,like, what do you mean?
I can do this and I can do that.

(01:23:01):
She goes, you can read people,you can speak to spirits and you
can, you're healing, you canheal people.
And then I was going what, andcan heal people?
And?
And then I was going what?
And?
And she was right.
She was right.
She started taking, uh, showingme things and we'd go to
people's houses, do cleansings,cleanse their houses and things
like that and and then I'd startseeing things and, um, I'd
start talking, like seeinglittle pictures and, yeah, like

(01:23:22):
flashing my head in front of myeyes and, um, people showing me
things and and then, uh, byhearing, seeing things, and then
I started helping spirits thatwere stuck and lost and helping
them cross over, and it was justamazing.
I just loved it.
And I thought well, this isunreal.
It's like magic.
And I never even had any ideaand I probably in my life

(01:23:45):
earlier I probably wouldn't havebeen ready for that anyway.
But so that's what I've beendoing with this person.
So that was another reason whyI left the gang and that anyway.
So back to where I was, in thedog kennel in the ICU unit.
But I mean, I was in a reallydeep dark hole.
I wouldn't have crawled into adark hole and never come out.

(01:24:07):
That's how bad I felt.
But I ended up coming.
It was the spirituality thatTams had taught me and showed me
that got me out of it.
I mean, I came out of my cellinto a little wee yard, concrete
yard had a cage over it andthere was a little bit of sun

(01:24:28):
shining through in the cornerand I went and stood in the sun,
closed my eyes and, boom, I gota vision.
I just got this really strongvision and I don't really want
to explain it, but and this wasreally clear, really strong, and

(01:24:48):
I felt like this was Godshowing me something, you know,
and I felt just a loving feelingand a warm loving feeling.
And I opened my eyes and Ithought, whoa, that was freaky,
that was out of it.
So I went to the phone and rangher up and she told me what
that was all about.
And from that day onwards, Igot better.
I started getting better andbetter and better Came out of it

(01:25:09):
.
So I went to the phone and rangher up and she told me what
that was all about.
And from that day on, I gotbetter.
I started getting better andbetter and better, came out of
the ICU unit, went back to theunit and I just I just started
bringing myself out of thedepression and started getting
better and better.
And it was, it was the, and itwas the.
This thought that thateverything happens for a reason,
you know, and started to thinkabout everything more positive

(01:25:31):
instead of everything negativeand the dark stuff, yep.
And that every day I just gotbetter and better and better,
stronger and stronger, yep, andI didn't care about anyone.
I actually became free.
Yeah, I felt it.
I felt I was on my I, I had acell by myself, right and and,
and I was.
I was going through a lot ofgrief and that for what I'd lost

(01:25:54):
and I still hadn't.
I wasn't ready to get out,right, and I was going oh, I
can't get out yet, because Iwanted to get out and have
revenge on these people thattaking my cars and done things
to me and like that so.
But then I had to try it, butthat was keeping me in a dark
place, so I had to stop thinkinglike that.
And so I started thinking aboutmy spiritual side and started

(01:26:15):
working on that and I startedreading a lot of books on our
souls and and things like that.
And I mean, I didn't turnreligious, but very spiritual.
Very spiritual like like theuniverse and our souls and
spirits and things like that.

Speaker 2 (01:26:31):
It's almost like a higher calling and a sense of
purpose as well with that.

Speaker 1 (01:26:35):
I started realising while I was in jail because I
started feeling free.
I was in jail but I was free,and the irony of it is this I
was sitting there and I thoughtI had to come to jail to be free
.

Speaker 2 (01:26:51):
And.

Speaker 1 (01:26:51):
I actually feel free.
I didn't care that I was inprison.
I was reading books and I wouldjust go out and I'd just spend
time by myself.
I'd sit in the yard and I'd seeother prisoners and other guys
and mates going up and they'reon the phone and they're arguing
with their missus and they'reslamming, smashing the phone and
they're getting off the yellingand screaming and going fuck.

(01:27:11):
And then you're like fuck, youbroke the phone.
You're like fuck yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:27:14):
Oh, you fucking.

Speaker 1 (01:27:18):
And I'd just sort of look at them and I'd look around
at everyone and I just feltsorry for everyone.
I just felt sorry for everyonebecause I knew that they weren't
feeling free like I was, youknow, for everybody, because I
knew that they weren't feelingfree like I was.
No, you know, yeah, and I washealing, I was getting healed, I
was healing myself and I soonrealized that all of this oh,

(01:27:39):
this is what happened.
I've got to tell you about thisbecause I started seeing little
signs since then and like I wassitting in my cell and it was
afternoon, it was an afternoonlockup and there was a real
boring my cell, and it wasafternoon, it was an afternoon
lock-up and there was a realboring sort of movie on in the
afternoon.
I wasn't really listening to itand I'd been asked by Tarns.
He said you need to write abook about your life.
So I thought, well, better timeas any to start this.

(01:28:00):
So I was sitting there and Iwas writing things, which was
actually very healing as well,because I had to think back of
things that I had never thoughtabout or gone back to in years
and years and really emotionaltimes like my brother dying and
things like that.
I never talked to anybody aboutthat.
So as I was writing things, Ihad to remember my feelings, my

(01:28:21):
emotions at the time, mythoughts, and I heard what was
going on.
So it brought me to tears acouple of times writing this
book.
So as I was writing this bookand as I was writing this book,
I got to his part and I put itdown and I was going hang on, I
was never really a bad person.
Even when I was in the gang I'vedone some bad things.
But when I've done those badthings, I felt bad about it,

(01:28:42):
even when I had a fight, evenwhen I had a fight and I beat
the guy up and he's lying on theground and I felt sorry for
that guy, even though he startedit and everyone thought that I
liked violence.
But I never, ever did.
I hated it.
I hated violence and it wasjust a necessary thing to do.
It was survival in the lifethat I had and I was thinking to

(01:29:06):
myself.
I was going why is thishappening to me?
I shouldn't have this sort ofbad karma.
Why is this going on?
And right at that moment thisguy on TV hyped up and said
sometimes a life needs to bedestroyed to have a new
beginning In that moment, rightin that moment, as I thought
that and it was just one ofthose signs that I was out of it

(01:29:28):
.
Yeah, and so so that's alwaysreally stuck with me, you know,
and that's why I always go backto remember that oh, why did you
miss my cars?
I missed my bikes, I missed myall my material possessions and
then, and then, that's when Istarted realizing as well and so
I always go back to that momentsometimes your life needs to be
destroyed to have a newbeginning.

(01:29:48):
So you start beginning yournext life, and it picked me up.
It picked me up and and I tookthat moment and I just got
better and better and better,and and I always thought
everything happens for a reason,whether it's good or bad.
You know so.
So I don't think of any of thebad reasons.
You, you bad things happen toeverybody, absolutely.
They make you stronger for one.

(01:30:11):
They make you.
You need to learn them.
It's happening to you becausethat's something you need and
what would help your childrenlater on in life, or help
somebody else later on in life.

Speaker 2 (01:30:21):
There's a purpose.

Speaker 1 (01:30:21):
There's a purpose for everything, so therefore, I
believe that there's no badthings that happen, because it's
actually a good thing, yeah, Iagree.
So I was getting better andgetting stronger and it actually
ended up like I'd be sittingthere reading my book out in the
yard or in the wing, and thenthese guys would be shitting.

(01:30:44):
So I started drawing.
People started being drawn tome and coming and sitting at my
table and I was sitting, and soI put my book down.

Speaker 2 (01:30:52):
Hey, bro and they were like hey, mate, oh, you
were that guy in the wing.
Yeah, I was like.

Speaker 1 (01:30:56):
I was like you know, like what was it?
Those prison movies?
And there's always that oldwise guy the old wise guy with
the book, yeah, yeah, the onethat is clever, that's got all
the good advice.

Speaker 2 (01:31:07):
I was that guy, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:31:09):
And I sort of had a giggle to myself now and then
thinking, oh shit, I'm that guy,I've become that guy, and I
didn't really care about havingany company or anything, but
people would just come and sitat my table.

Speaker 2 (01:31:20):
They could probably sense the inner peace that you
were feeling.

Speaker 1 (01:31:24):
Yeah, just probably drawn to me.
Yeah, absolutely Just probablydrawn to me yeah absolutely.
And I'd give them I could voiceit.
I'd go not going on too wellwith the missus and they'd go
yeah, bro, fucking hell, sowhat's going on?
They'd say things like oh,fucking, she won't answer the
phone anymore and fucking this,I think she's fucking around.
And I said bro, bro, bro.
I said you have to rememberthat.

(01:31:45):
You put yourself in here.
It's not her fault, it's notyour children's fault.
You have to.
You have to think of, you haveto put yourself in her shoes.
You put yourself in here, right?
I said she's the one doing ithard.
She's doing that prison scene.
Her and your kids are doingprison sentence with you.
They have to come into thisshit place, get patted down,
strip searched, fucking, gettreated like shit.
You know, come in here in aterrible fucking place, see you

(01:32:06):
for fucking an hour and they'remissing out on having you at
home and everything they have tobuy you.
They put money in your accountevery week so you can have
munchies and things like that.
Your missus is on the benefitfor us.
So they're doing your sentencewith you, bro, you have to
remember.
And then you're accusing themor fucking reaching around or

(01:32:26):
whatever.
Well, even if she is, that'syour fault because you put
yourself in here, she wouldn'tbe if you were out there.
No, you know, but you don'teven know that.
No, so why put yourself throughthat?
Why put her through that?
That's why she's not answeringthe phone anymore, bro, because
she's coming onto the phone andyou're saying and you're
accusing her of fucking aroundor whatever.

(01:32:47):
And you're accusing her offucking around or whatever.
Bro, just try this next time,next time when she does finally
answer the phone, try giving hersome support, asking if she's
all right, if the kids are allright, because, bro, honestly,
she doesn't want to.
She gets anxiety when thatphone rings.
Yeah yeah, and she has to.
She goes, oh no, he's going togo and he's going to fucking
accuse me of this and that, Ofcourse, she doesn't want to

(01:33:07):
answer the phone, bro, yeah,yeah.
So I'd be giving them adviceright there and they'd go, oh
yeah, and then I'd see themtrying it this time.
They'd come back and go bro,you were right.
Fuck, she's coming to visit me,and I'd go, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:33:21):
That would make me feel good.

Speaker 1 (01:33:22):
It would make me feel I just didn't care.
I didn't care about all the badshit that was going on around
the world or in there.
I just was healing myself, youknow, and once I was doing that
and just being okay with beingby myself and being alone and
not worrying about what everyone, all the bad shit that was
going on and the negative shit Istarted seeing all the negative

(01:33:44):
stuff.
Yeah, seeing it for what it isSeeing it and seeing all these
poor cunts, I'm sorry these poorguys that are in there and
doing it hard and I rememberdoing legs like that when I had
a miss and I was All the worryand the fighting and all that
sort of shit.
It doesn't get you anywhere.
Just don't go to jail.
No, that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:34:04):
It's that simple.

Speaker 1 (01:34:05):
Yeah, and it's not about money.

Speaker 2 (01:34:06):
If you've got no money, it's rather be poor and
free than rich and in jail, andthat's why, like you said
earlier, it's worth everyonedoing it.
Oh yeah, I think everyoneshould do it.

Speaker 1 (01:34:16):
It turns you into a completely different person once
you've been there.
Absolutely yeah.
It goes one way or the other.

Speaker 2 (01:34:22):
Yeah, and that's it.
A lot of people they take thatwhole lifestyle on and other
people they're out, they'renever coming back.

Speaker 1 (01:34:29):
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, and I've seen a lot ofpeople do that.
They've just completely changedtheir lives, and for the better
.

Speaker 2 (01:34:36):
Yeah, what advice would you give others about the
dangers of gang involvement?

Speaker 1 (01:34:41):
Well, of course there's the obvious you could
die, yeah, you could die.
You could die the peer pressure, meaning if your brothers are
going into war, you have to bethere.
If something's going on, youhave to drop everything and be
there for them.
Otherwise, that's part of thebrotherhood thing.

Speaker 2 (01:35:05):
It doesn't matter what you've got organised in
your life.
That stops.
You've got to drop family, dropeverything and go running to
that.

Speaker 1 (01:35:11):
So be prepared for that and be prepared for jail,
because you're going to do jail.
If you're a gang member, you'regoing to do jail at some stage
and it's going to happen, it'sinevitable.

Speaker 2 (01:35:21):
Yeah, a lot of people probably believe that they can
get into the gang lifestyle andavoid jail.
Yeah, because they thinkthey're too clever they're
clever enough to stay out of it.

Speaker 1 (01:35:29):
No one.
Everyone does jail and the peerpressure.
Like I said, if you need to bethere for your brother, you have
to be there you have to bethere.
There's no getting out of it.
Otherwise, don't even sign upfor the gang.
Yeah, another thing is beprepared for the police.
Like the police, the police.
You'll never get left alone.

(01:35:52):
You'll get pulled over.
You'll get harassed.
You'll get hassled for the restof your life, Even when you
leave the gang.
It won't matter.
You'll still be that person.
Your family will be harassed.
They'll.
They'll never let you live itdown.

Speaker 2 (01:36:05):
You're a target.

Speaker 1 (01:36:06):
You're definitely a target, and once you're known,
you're known and you'll never beunknown.

Speaker 2 (01:36:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:36:12):
Yeah, so yeah, be prepared for that.
It's definitely a change oflifestyle and you've got to be
ready to handle it or do it well.

Speaker 2 (01:36:22):
Yeah, and that when, too, you know it's not just when
they go to war, they'reactually after you as well.
You know, it's not just yourbrothers that are fighting.

Speaker 1 (01:36:32):
It's actually you.

Speaker 2 (01:36:32):
You become a target to the other gangs.
Yeah, you know, if there'sissues between gangs and things,
things could escalate quitequickly for you?

Speaker 1 (01:36:41):
Yeah, definitely they like.
You've got to take this intoaccount as well.
If you go to war with anothergang, well, five, 10 years later
you might leave that gang andhave a change of life, and you
might even go to be a Christianor whatever.
Whatever happens, leave thatgang.
You might want to live a familylife.

(01:37:01):
You run into those same people.
They're going to, they're goingto want you they're going to
want retaliation on you and justbecause you left the gang, that
won't matter, it doesn't matter, it's you, it's you.
They remember you were part ofthat shot at them or beat their
mate up or whatever.
You will always be that target.

Speaker 2 (01:37:22):
You'll be answerable as that person For the rest of
your life.
Yeah, right.

Speaker 1 (01:37:26):
And remember, even when you're old and you can't
fight anymore, you've still gotto get they drive you or drive
past you, or whatever you've gotto get.

Speaker 2 (01:37:35):
It'll be some young fellow who's got a point to
prove.
Yeah, he's going to say, oh, Igot him, I got him, yeah, I got
him, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:37:41):
They want that trophy .

Speaker 2 (01:37:42):
Yeah, that.
It never leaves you no.

Speaker 1 (01:37:46):
You can get out of it .
But I mean with me, I justdon't worry about things like
that anymore.
I'm not going to let it definemy life.
No, I don't not go placesbecause, oh shit, I might run
into those people or thosepeople.
I don't care, I'll take it.
I mean that was my life then.
If it happens to me now ithappens to me, I mean mean I'm

(01:38:10):
not gonna, I'm not, my life hasbeen destroyed.
Yeah, right, yeah, I'm notgoing to carry on destroying it
myself.

Speaker 2 (01:38:12):
No, you can't and you can't live in fear.
You know everyone.
There's a risk of bad thingshappening to all of us yeah you
know.
But but we can't just, you know,wait for that to happen.
We've just got to allow it tohappen.
If it's going to, yeah, and dothe best to mitigate it because,
like you know, you're doinggood things, you've got good
things planned and you may findthat you're lowering your risk
of bad things happening, becausepeople will see that, Like if
you were to ask me the questionhow do I feel now being out of

(01:38:36):
the gang?

Speaker 1 (01:38:38):
I say the word that comes to mind is freedom.
I mean I feel free, even thoughI have to watch out for running
into old rivals and things likethat.
I can't worry about that.
No, I mean because otherwiseI'm not free.
Yeah, yeah, If I let thattrouble me, if I let that
trouble my head, I'm not feelingfree, yeah, I mean, but I feel

(01:38:59):
free because I don't care aboutthat sort of thing, and I think
now I've been in a differentmentality and not having to see,
and that's part of anotherfreedom.
Part of freedom is that I don'thave to do anything.
No, I don't have to, you know,live up to the gang's

(01:39:21):
expectation or anything, becausethere is no gang anymore, it's
me, and I don't need to doanything about it.
I don't need to retaliate, Idon't need to do anything about
it, I don't need to retaliate, Idon't need to prove myself.
I can have a choice to do it,and I think now, if I did run
into any rival, my mindset'sthat different now that it would

(01:39:43):
be different.
It would be different anyway,and so I think I'd handle it a
lot different.
Yep, I'd still defend myself ifI had to, but I think I'd deal
with this whole situation a lotdifferently Because I don't care
about the staunchness of itanymore.
I don't care about it, andthere's no shame in that.
I mean, I feel like I'm abigger man now than I ever was.

Speaker 2 (01:40:07):
Isn't that funny.
It's probably tied intoemotional maturity, in that the
gang's lifestyle, the ganglifestyle is probably more of a
young man's game.
Yeah, definitely it's thebravado, it's the I want to do
what I want to do.
I don't want the rules andthere's probably a sense of
freedom that comes with youngfellas joining the gang.
They feel a sense of freedomand they're like I can do what I

(01:40:27):
want you know, and that butwhat they're doing is actually
locking themselves into asituation.

Speaker 1 (01:40:33):
Yeah that's right, yeah, so yeah, but I definitely
feel free now, and not because,I think, not only just because
of the gang.
I think because of myspirituality now and being and
taking that journey and walkingdown that path.
Now it's just such an enormousfreedom feeling and there's a

(01:40:55):
whole other world out there andit's all just really positive.
It's all positive.
I mean, now I'm healing people.
Now I'm not hurting people.
I'm working in with Tans Tansis where I come from.
Now we're starting up abusiness and things like that.
We're doing healings andreadings and psychic readings

(01:41:16):
and things like that.
So it's all good.
It's all good and we'recleansing houses.
So we're not only helping thehumans, we're helping the people
that have passed and sort ofstuck as well.
It's an amazing world to be in.
Can imagine it'd be veryfulfilling.

(01:41:37):
You know, yeah, and and like wehaven't even touched the, the
tipper yet.
I mean there's, there's so much, there's so much out there that
we don't know about.
Oh, yeah it's amazing.
It's amazing this, this person,she's completely changed my life
.
She saved my life, you know,and I got a lot of respect and
admiration for her and I trusther with everything.
And so, yeah, and it's allabout you know, it's all about

(01:42:02):
keeping myself good and positiveand carrying on.
I mean I'm not, I'm not perfect, I'm not there yet.
I mean I've still got a longway to go.
Yeah, and and I've only beensort of doing this for three
years odd now, and and uh, ofcourse, I work right on a farm
now.
I'm there still dairy farming,and so that takes up a lot of my
time.
But yeah, but I think what I,what I wanted, my goal is I, I'm

(01:42:23):
not going to be dairy farmingforever.
I'm just going to stay loyal tomy boss at the moment, because
he gave me the chance and he,you know he'd been a gang member
and everything he got helped mein there.
So, yeah, it's a big deal, isn'tit, when people give you that,
yeah, that chance, yeah yeah,yeah, and so I appreciate that a
lot and I um, so I'll stickwith him until probably the end
of the season and and then.

(01:42:45):
But I really want to get intodoing counselling work and cool
and uh, sort of help the youthbefore they sort of hit the gate
.
I might not help everybody thatI talk to, but if I can help
some and make them realise whatthey're doing and sort of well,
then it's worth it.
And also I really want to focuson helping gang members that

(01:43:07):
want to leave but don't know how, because that's what happened
to me I had no support and I hadno help doing it and it was one
of the hardest things I everhad to do and it turned out a
terrible ordeal.
But I want to look at, I wantpeople out there to know that

(01:43:29):
there's somebody.
You know, there is a way, thereis a way.
And it took me years to leavethe gang and only because, and
especially where I was comingfrom, a president and stepping
off that pedestal and justthinking I could just jump into
a normal life and just live anormal life like everyone else.
It's not like that.

Speaker 2 (01:43:45):
It's not that easy.

Speaker 1 (01:43:52):
Not when you've been living a gang life for no, for
those years, the yeah, you can'tjust step out of there and then
just completely walk anotherpath.
It's not like that.
I was so used to the survivalskills that I had picked up to
live in that life yeah, thatthat you can't just let those go
.
No, that's right.
You have to deal with straightpeople working people and things
like that.
And, and you've got to dealwith straight people working
people and things like that.
And you've got to deal withsituations and people not like
you used to.
No, like you can't just sayfuck or punch your whole head in

(01:44:16):
or something or intimidate themwhile being a gay.
You can't do that because youend up just getting locked up.

Speaker 2 (01:44:22):
They'll just call the cops straight away, and then
the cops already know who youare.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:44:25):
And they'll be happy to oblige them.
But so you just you have todeal with everything differently
.
You have to learn how to dealwith normal people differently.
Yep, and it's not an easy.
It's not an easy transformation.

Speaker 2 (01:44:41):
I can imagine.

Speaker 1 (01:44:42):
Transition Yep Very, very hard.

Speaker 2 (01:44:45):
Very hard to do, but.

Speaker 1 (01:44:46):
I'm getting there, I mean I've come a long way.
I've come a long way to where Iwas.

Speaker 2 (01:44:49):
Yeah, I think you're doing really well.
Like you say, that's a hugeportion of your life that has
really shaped your identity, andthen reinventing your identity,
especially when you're older,it's massive.
I don't think anyone can reallyunderstand what that's like
until they go through itthemselves.

Speaker 1 (01:45:05):
Exactly.
Yeah, I didn't realise what itwas going to be like.
I thought it'd be easy and itdefinitely wasn't Like.

Speaker 2 (01:45:11):
I'm just going to wake up one day and I'll be that
new person.
It's like no, actually it takessome time, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:45:14):
I'm just going to step over it.
I'm going to step over thispicket fence, yeah, yeah, I'm
looking at when I do.
I believe now that I've lived alife so I can help others, and

(01:45:35):
I lived that life for a reason,and I think who better to help
others than somebody that'slived it?

Speaker 2 (01:45:41):
Oh, 100% that lived experience is more valuable.
What I've learned, especiallyin the last year or two, is that
lived experience is moreimportant than any degree or any
bit of paperwork you can do anybit of study.
You've got the option to studyat any time and you can learn
what tricks and secrets are outthere in terms of helping people
that exist.
But you are going to be able toapply your life lessons and
there'll be counsellors andthings and people in all sorts

(01:46:03):
of roles that if ask themquestions and you say, what do
you think I should do, or youknow, do you know what this is
like, they'd go I don't know.
Open your book, you knowWhereas for you, you go, mate, I
know all about that, yeah yeah,I didn't read it in a book.
No, you didn't know.
There was no manual, for youlived it.

Speaker 1 (01:46:18):
Yeah, there was no playbook or anything to show me
how to live that, to find it outfor yourself, and just do it.

Speaker 2 (01:46:28):
It's like if you wanted to know about parenting,
would you want to go and talk tosomeone who studies some
parenting or someone who haskids?

Speaker 1 (01:46:34):
That's right.
You know like you really shouldtalk to the person or a parent.

Speaker 2 (01:46:38):
Realistically, that's the thing it's like.
If you're like, fuck myfive-year-old, I just don't know
what to do here.
But then you've got friends whohave a 10 and a 7 year old.
You're like, well, they'veprobably had a 5 year old before
they have, so I'll ask themwhat they did with 5 year olds
someone that's actually done it.

Speaker 1 (01:46:55):
Yeah, that's the most valuable thing yeah, so moving
on in my life.
Moving on is I want to getstronger with my spirituality.
I want to get stronger with myspirituality.
I want to put myself out thereand me and Tarns are starting up

(01:47:15):
a business doing healing andspiritual readings and things,
and so I'm definitely going tothrow myself into that role as
well.

Speaker 2 (01:47:26):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:47:27):
And then, at the same time, try and help people as
much as I can, because I feellike that's what I'm supposed to
do.
Yeah, and I feel like it'sgiving back as well.
You know, I'm not living on thewrong side of you know life now
I feel I need to give back, andit makes me feel good to want

(01:47:50):
to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:47:51):
You've got some karma to offset.
Yes, pretty much.

Speaker 1 (01:47:54):
That's the way I see it.

Speaker 2 (01:47:56):
There's been plenty, I think, about the harm that
I've done in society, because Ihave caused harm through the
illegal things that I've doneand a lot of the illegal things
that I've done was supply ofillicit substances.
I would have definitely caused,while these people would
justify it and a lot of drugdealers do, and I did at the
time too, justify it that I amhelping them achieve a goal With

(01:48:18):
steroids.
It was the case With otherthings.
It was a bit more like theywant to get high, obviously, but
there's so much harm that comeswith that.
There's family violence,there's all sorts of things.
You're just fueling it, you'refueling confusion and chaos and
mental health issues, and allsorts of things I used to say to

(01:48:39):
people.

Speaker 1 (01:48:41):
I'm a drug dealer, but I'm not selling it to anyone
that doesn't want it, and thatused to justify it to myself.
I used to say at least I'm notselling it to anyone that
doesn't want it.

Speaker 2 (01:48:48):
No, that's right and that used to justify it to
myself.
I used to say at least I'm notselling meth, or at least I'm
not selling meth to school kidsor something like that.
People would be like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I'm like actually, but I'mstill selling something that's
illegal for a reason.
And when it came to medicineseven, it was like no, there's a
reason.
Doctors oversee this kind ofstuff, because you're fucking

(01:49:09):
with your body quite bad, and alot of people would take it and
not know how it's going toaffect them.

Speaker 1 (01:49:13):
Um, so there is that risk of harm, um, but look, you
learn these things as you goaway, yeah yeah, probably a
little late in my life, but, butI mean, I still think of it
like it happened, when it wassupposed to happen.
yeah, that's right, and mychange and everything and my
spiritual I probably wouldn'thave grasped it so much earlier

(01:49:36):
in my years because I wasn'tready for it, I'm ready for it
now and however long I've gotleft in my life, I want to do
good by that and do the best Ican and do it all positively and
be there for my family, and Ilove my family so much.
I've got seven children andseven grandchildren.
I just want to do the best forthem and be there for my family,

(01:49:57):
and I lost my mum a couple ofmonths ago, so you know that was
another bit of a downer for us,down with us.
But yeah, it's.
I realised that we we're not,none of us are here forever no
there's one thing in life thatyou're sure about, and it's

(01:50:19):
death.
So before before I go, I wantedto be do the best for my family
and help as many people as I can, so I want to throw myself into
that.

Speaker 2 (01:50:30):
I've got no doubt that you will Thanks, and I
think you're very capable andable to do all that, and
especially because of that livedexperience.

Speaker 1 (01:50:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:50:39):
I think that's everything that we've got, and
is there anything else thatyou'd like to say or put out
there?

Speaker 1 (01:50:44):
No, I think I can't think of anything else.

Speaker 2 (01:50:47):
We've got it all out, yeah, good, I think we've got
to do another one that's onstage two as well, with Tani, I
think, yeah, I'd love to,because, again, I'd love to do
like I said to you I'd love tolearn more about Clever Wernsey
as well, and just that wholeside of things, and I think
she'd be a really awesome personto meet.

Speaker 1 (01:51:03):
Yeah, definitely.
I think whoever's listening oris interested in this story that
it'll clarify a lot too fromwhat I've said about the
clairvoyancy and thespirituality.
So when we do a session on thatwith Tarns, it'll be a lot more
clear.
That'll explain all that sortof things a lot more.

Speaker 2 (01:51:23):
Well, I can link her as well in this episode.
So if she's got a business pageor a number or something, or
even a social media, I can linkher as well in this episode.

Speaker 1 (01:51:30):
So if she's got a business page or a number or
something or even a social media.

Speaker 2 (01:51:31):
I can put her in the description, so anyone who's
interested in getting in touchwith her can do that.
And also yourself too, ifthere's an email address or
something I can put in there, itjust means there might be
people in similar situations toyou that maybe are looking at
leaving a gang or have friendsthat are in a gang or something
like that.

Speaker 1 (01:51:54):
Maybe they have friends that are in a gang or
something like that.
Maybe they might be able totalk to you, just get a bit of
perspective or some advice.
Um, yeah, well, I've juststarted up a, um, uh, instagram
page cool, because I was neveron, I wasn't on instagram and
instagram, and so I can'tremember, but I'll get it
afterwards.
Yeah, but, but I can give youmy uh email and um, which is
knga13zzz at gmailcom, and Ialso have a Facebook page

(01:52:15):
Messenger as well.
Kev Nafari.

Speaker 2 (01:52:19):
I'll chuck the links in the description anyway to be
nice and easy for people to justclick on.
But yeah, I want to thank youfor coming in and sharing all of
that.

Speaker 1 (01:52:27):
Thanks, mate.
It's been great being here.

Speaker 2 (01:52:29):
I'm happy to speak about what I spoke about.
Thank you, cool, no worries,and we will have you on again
soon.
Thank you very much.
Thanks, josh.
Thank you.

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