August 19, 2025 • 52 mins
During his ten-year teaching career, Grant recognised that his students needed more from traditional education. He decided to create a program to help students feel more connected and engaged in their school environment.
Grant’s great passion for education has driven him to research the benefits of training wellbeing dogs for the classroom. He willingly shares his knowledge and scientific evidence, teaching students and staff how to build emotional intelligence and resilience. Many schools are now witnessing first-hand the impact the program is having on academic outcomes.
Find Dogs Connect online: https://dogsconnect.net.au/
Dogs Connect on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dogsconnectaustralia/
Dogs Connect on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dogs.connect/
Dogs Connect virtual course on Polyvagal Institute: Dogs Connect--Connection, Regulation, and Empathy
Canine Movement Lab: Website
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Find me on Facebook: Leah Lykos
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leah (00:00):
Welcome back, friends, to another episode of the Somatic
Hound podcast.
Today, I am very excited to bespeaking with Grant Shannon, the
founder of Dogs Connect.
And I would like to let Grantjust introduce himself, tell you
a little bit about hisbackground, and then how this
(00:23):
organization got started.
Grant (00:27):
Hi Leah, thank you for having me.
Okay, so my name's Grant.
I'm the founder of anorganization called Dogs
Connect.
What we do at Dogs Connect isbasically we support other
organizations in building what Iwould call really thorough and
healthy process around the ideaof introducing and bringing a
(00:47):
dog into the community.
And whether that be a workplaceor a school or a community
health organization or ahospital or a sports club,
teaching those kinds oforganisations what we believe
needs to be considered and putin place so that this can be
done in a healthy way, in directrelation to the animals first
(01:10):
and foremost, but also asustainable way so that that
meaningful, positive connectioncan be something that's felt
mutually in an ongoing way.
And so that's what we do.
in terms of the background it'sa little bit of a story and if
we've got time for a littlestory basically this all started
(01:33):
over a decade ago now i wasworking as a school teacher in
australia and was working withpeople probably around the age
of 10 years old and I wasbecoming more and more convinced
that what was a typicaleducation setting, and I know
through talking to youpreviously, there's some very
(01:56):
strong similarities.
They're probably universallypretty similar to education
across the world.
Feeling like those settingsweren't really allowing and
supporting these particularyoung people in ways that I
thought they needed to beallowed and supported.
(02:16):
and connected.
So the typical come in, sitdown, listen to me, I'm the
teacher, sit still for hours, doeverything the same as everyone
else does it, it just kind ofdidn't sit right with me.
So that combined with some ofthe young people that I was
working with had some prettyunique needs and they needed to
(02:40):
be supported through learninghow to navigate their emotions
mainly is what I think the needwas.
Because when this was somethingthat they weren't able to do,
their emotions could take overand could become, you know,
somewhat out of control and outof their control, certainly.
And it's not for anyone else tobe able to control it, is my
(03:01):
thinking.
So the idea was, can we connectthese people with an animal?
Because I was at the same timeI was managing the school farm,
which was an operational farm.
And I was seeing these youngpeople who were having lots of
challenging times in managingthemselves and their emotions.
(03:23):
I was seeing them differentlyaround the animals and they were
different around the animals.
It was really plain to see whatsome of the other educators
would call really bad behavior.
Wasn't the term I would use,but behaviors that were
(03:43):
challenging would just melt awayaround the animals.
And you would see these youngpeople become able to
co-regulate.
Their state of being wouldchange rapidly.
And that would be around cows,sheep, alpacas, pigs, chickens.
And my thinking was, this iswhat these people need.
(04:05):
It's one of the things thatwe've got on our doorstep.
But I can't bring a big boar, abig pig, a big cow, a big wild
animal into the classroom.
But there must be an animalthat we can bring in.
And I have felt an affiliationwith dogs all of my life.
So there was the idea, can webring a dog in?
(04:25):
The answer was yes when I askedthe question to the person who
was in charge of the school.
It was coupled with some...
I was doing at the time as partof some postgraduate studies.
That research was directlyabout student wellbeing and it
was about applied learning.
So coupling it with theresearch and seeing the need and
(04:53):
having the opportunity was thisperfect storm of where this all
began.
So I went about building thisas a full-time teacher, building
something that was enabling ayoung dog to come into the
classroom in a way that we feltwas safe for the dog safe for
(05:14):
people it's been rapidlyevolving ever since the impact
initially was mind-blowing andit still is to this very day i
have interactions with peoplethat that give me goosebumps
from the stories and the impactsand and so it feels like it
started a long time ago but thefeeling of it rapidly evolving
(05:37):
is constant and it's still heretoday, which is something I
love.
Leah (05:43):
That's awesome.
Yeah, I probably should havestarted with how I found you or
how we connected because Itypically find people through
following their content onYouTube or Instagram and I found
your work If you want to callit that, the class that you have
(06:05):
on Polyvagal Institute, becauseI've been studying Dr.
Porges' work and Depdana andhow to bring those concepts into
my dog training, if you caneven call it that, which we're
going to get into some of thelanguage stuff that we also have
(06:28):
in common in terms of how wework with dogs.
the dogs and what are weactually really doing?
Is it even training?
But yeah, I took your course onthe Polyvagal Institute, which
is like an overview of whatyou're doing with your
organization.
(06:48):
And then when we did our littlepre-interview chat, you know, I
realized, which I don't knowwhy that didn't come to mind
earlier but my mom had been ateacher in the special education
field specifically withelementary school kids and then
when I was home from college Iused to substitute sometimes in
(07:11):
her classroom with her butdefinitely getting a feeling for
what's going on in classroomsthis was a long time ago I hope
there's something like this inthe in the United States.
I didn't even ask you that.
If you have any...
If you guys are internationalor...
Grant (07:31):
At the moment, we're not.
But I do believe this ishappening in little pockets
globally.
And it's a real grey areaacross the world in that it's
really difficult because it'sevolving more rapidly than the
governing bodies and thegovernance itself.
You know...
(07:51):
to come back to talking aboutDr.
Porges and the polyvagaltheory.
When I first started to buildthis program, I was, I'm as
excited today as I was backthen, but I was in a place where
I was discovering that sciencewas underpinning what we were
(08:13):
doing.
And I was really excited tocome across the polyvagal
material.
And I would listen to, Iremember driving for hours and
hours from one school to anotherand traveling the countryside.
It's a really big place.
It's not unusual to be drivingfor six hours here and just to
go to another school.
So listening to Dr.
(08:34):
Stephen Porter's talk for hoursand hours on end and being
really excited about it becauseit aligned really strongly with
what we were doing and what ourvision was.
and it really excited me sothat has been you know something
that underpins science isunderpinning what we're doing
more and more and more we'll getto the terminology and that
(08:55):
really excites me because youand i are really aligned with
some of the terminology that wewant to move away from and that
we some of the terminology wewant to move towards but i think
that the governance that youknow that the governing bodies
that the this concept ofintroducing a dog and building
(09:16):
the idea differently in thatthis is not a trained dog in
inverted commas that comes inand can just take what we think
we can inflict or put towardsthis dog or expose this dog to
that it's different and thatit's about building relationship
(09:37):
and it's about bringing a doginto a place in a way that is
considering that the dog mustfeel safe and must feel that it
can naturally connect withpeople on its own terms.
It needs to be mutual andreciprocally offered.
And the dogs must have choice.
And so that's really differentfor a lot of people.
(09:57):
It's certainly different from alot of what the governance and
a lot of what would be, I guess,legislation.
A lot of the legislation thatwe align with is really, really
old.
It's 1970s, 1980s.
It's really basic stuff.
It's like shelter, food, water.
This is what animals need.
(10:17):
I feel like animals and the waywe perceive animals is probably
more the way to put it, isevolving really rapidly.
People often ask me, what is itthat I love the most about what
we do?
And my answer is truly, deeplythe same every single time.
I love that we're helpingpeople to see dogs differently.
(10:39):
to think about them differentlyand to feel about them
differently.
Because it wasn't that long agothat dogs were in the backyard,
being fed total crap, beingtold to shut up when they
barked.
And it's changing really,really quickly.
You know, our culture ashumans, the way we bring dogs
in, the way we're buildingrelationships.
(11:01):
There's countries where dogshave their own opah, you know,
their own human assistant.
And, and, this might be afamily who have an opah for
their children and another opahfor their dog.
You know, so we're seeing dogsand the role that they play
evolving really rapidly and therelationships that humans build
(11:22):
and the way that we're weavinginto acknowledging the animal
wisdom that we have theopportunity to learn from and
invite into our lives andconnect with.
So, I mean, That is going farbeyond and far more rapidly than
(11:43):
what we'd call legislation orgovernance.
So in a way, what we're doingin helping people to see this
differently is going to bringpolicy and it's going to bring
legislation and it's going tobring the governing bodies
along, hopefully in thisdirection, because it's
undeniable.
(12:04):
It's undeniable that the waywe...
exist with dogs.
I mean, if we stop, just stopfor a minute and think about how
many people in the world havedogs in their lives that they
would genuinely call one oftheir best friends, if not their
best friend.
When people say, how many dogsdo you have?
(12:26):
I don't say I've got two dogs.
I say there's two dogs who I'mthe servant of, who I live with,
who I hang out with.
They're my best mates.
I don't own them.
I'm responsible for them.
I'm their guardian.
But, you know, if you thinkabout the amount of people in
the world that would say, yes,there's a dog in my life and he
or she is my best mate and I doeverything I can to, you know, I
(12:49):
drive these dogs around towherever they need to be.
I walk around with them.
You know, I pick up after them.
I cater for them.
They eat better than I do.
I'm not joking.
I'm a little bit, maybe alittle bit different too.
many people, but the way we areexisting with dogs is evolving
(13:10):
really rapidly.
The language is evolving reallyrapidly.
And I think part of our missionas Dogs Connect is to support
humans and to support positivehuman animal relationships, to
support the wellbeing beingfostered, the emotional the
(13:34):
emotional coherence, if youlike, within the relationships.
It's really exciting.
It's a great space for me to bein because I'm so passionate
about it.
And people are open to thisevolving.
People want this to move.
It's happening reallynaturally.
You know, we're talking aboutanimals in a really different
way.
We feel about them differently.
(13:55):
You know, so many people aretalking about that we've got so
much to learn from animals now.
not just dogs, animals.
It's just amazing for me to beable to live and breathe and
work in that space.
I love it.
Leah (14:15):
Yeah, that's really cool because that's how I am with my
dogs.
They eat real food.
I'm constantly thinking abouthave they had enough enrichment
today or enough exercise orenough emotional connection?
(14:37):
And then the interesting thingis some of my language and
concepts are still a littlebehind because even when we
started talking, I was like, oh,it's so cool how you use the
dogs to teach people about thenervous system.
And then we right away startedtalking about language and how,
(15:00):
you know, We don't really wantto even use that phrase of using
the dog because the dog is notthe tool.
The connection to the dog isthe tool.
And so even I am like reallyquickly upgrading my language
(15:22):
and making sure that I'm inalignment with how I actually
feel about the dogs and I alsocame to you with this concept
that you were training the dogsto kind of perform some sort of
task the way we do here in termsof service dogs.
Like in order for a dog to beclassified as a service dog, it
(15:45):
has to be trained to perform aspecific task.
So I was under the initialimpression that like there was
some sort of program that thedogs had to go through so that
they could then perform a jobsort of in service where what
you and i are now talking aboutis like kind of flipping that
(16:07):
paradigm on its head and reallyjust like allowing the dog to be
there and studying the dog soif you want to jump in there
yeah
Grant (16:18):
but flipping it totally on its head and you're right in
that most people think thisneeds to be about training a dog
and You know, I'm talking abouteducation settings.
I'm talking about youth justicesettings.
I'm talking about hospitals,community care organisations,
sports clubs.
People say in theirpreconceived idearies, so the
(16:43):
dog must pass a test.
The dog must be ready.
The dog must be trained.
We are flipping it entirelyonto its head and saying, no,
no.
Obviously, the dog needs to beappropriate to have around.
Quite often common sense isenough that we need there.
Sometimes it's moreunderstanding.
And part of our job at DogsConnect is to build that
(17:04):
understanding, to help peoplebuild it.
It's not really hard to do.
But the other end of the stickis, no, we're not training dogs.
I don't even use the word dogtraining.
We use the term understandingdogs.
We've had to shift from thevery beginning, never felt right
to me to say obedience, toexpect obedience.
To use the word command feelsvery human heavy.
(17:27):
To use the word understandinginstead of obedience to talk
about expectations,communication, relationships.
flipping it now into sayingit's the human's responsibility.
It's the human's job.
It's humans who are in chargeof what happens.
(17:48):
We can bring a dog into aschool and say this dog is
trained to the highest level.
And to come back just veryquickly to assistance, dogs are
different because they aretrained to assist people who
need assistance.
And that might be a youngperson with cerebral palsy needs
help to pick something up whenthey've dropped it.
Or it might be to assist peoplethat have, you know, that have
(18:11):
been through traumaticoccurrences in their life and
that now they require a certainlevel of assistance, it might be
assisting someone who's visionimpaired to cross a busy road.
That's a serious assistance.
The dogs we're talking aboutintroducing, they're about
connectedness, they're aboutcompanionship, they're about
(18:34):
bright moments, they're aboutthe natural feelings that that
when people and dogs areconnected authentically, that
naturally occur.
You know, the science talksabout it.
It's oxytocin release.
The moment you look into adog's eye, when you have a
connection with that dog, youget an oxytocin release.
So does the dog.
You know, that's that lovefeeling that's talked about, the
(18:55):
hug feeling.
But basically we're flipping iton its head and saying humans,
it's up to humans to buildprocess.
to build their understanding,to make sure that they can honor
what dogs bring and what thisindividual being is.
This dog is a sentient beingthat has his or her own
(19:16):
emotional experiences.
She doesn't talk our language,but we can understand her.
We can learn to understand hervery acutely and that we must,
and we must consider her inbringing her into this very
dynamic place where she ispotentially and likely to be the
(19:36):
most vulnerable being in theplace.
That's a big statement, butit's quite often very true.
Dogs don't get to even go tothe toilet unless we allow it.
They don't get water unless weallow it.
In a school, they don't getfresh air unless people think
about it and plan it and say,this dog hasn't been outside for
(19:58):
hours.
No wonder it looks like it'ssleepy.
It's been under anair-conditioned, controlled
environment for three hours.
They're teaching people how tomake sure they consider
everything that dogs need and tooffer it to dogs so that dogs
can live a balanced work life.
And by balanced, I mean not somuch work and play balance.
I mean what are the things theyneed in their day and let's get
(20:19):
them balanced.
Let's make sure they getexercise, fresh air.
Let's make sure they get someinteraction if and when they
want it, that they get to sitand observe because they learn
from observing just like we do.
let's make sure they get toiletopportunities, fresh air
opportunities.
Let's make sure they get timeto just be passively away from
it all.
So these are, I guess, obviousto us as what dogs need, but
(20:47):
they're not obvious to everyonebecause not everyone has the
experience or the naturalability to kind of see things
through a dog's perspective.
And educating people aroundthat and having people build
process, build protocol, buildunderstanding, get to a point
where, yes, we can do this in away that we are confident that
we're assessing our dog'swell-being and state of being
(21:10):
and health.
We are confident that we areable to understand this dog and
when he or she indicates thatshe likes, doesn't like, loves,
can't stand, wants out, wantsmore of, that we can respond
accordingly in the moment.
And so That's about upskillingpeople a little bit, not a lot.
The beauty of this is, and tocome back to the polyvagal
(21:33):
theory, is this is universalstuff.
You know, most of it's aboutthe way humans interact
interpersonally as well.
It's really easy to understand.
And when the opportunity is tounderstand it in the context of
a dog, it's quite often beingdisarmed, as in it's not
personal.
It's not about me potentiallydoing this wrong or with, to,
(21:54):
around, or for you.
It's about trying to do it withan animal that is offering
unconditionally most of thetime.
It's about trying to do it in arelational setting where
barriers have come down, wherethis natural connection with
(22:14):
these animals, with these dogs,is a conduit to this
understanding that that leads tothe likelihood of these
understandings landing.
With people of young age andmature people as well, these
understandings landing much moreclearly and being embedded with
(22:34):
much more ease because there isno threat.
It's not me talking to youabout what you need to do.
It's you interacting with a dogand learning that you need to
try and understand this animalbecause you would naturally care
about it once the connection'sthere.
And so weaving all of thattogether and weaving it into
(22:55):
communities and cultures andweaving it into spaces and
places and where there's lots ofpeople, I mean, in my thinking,
this is an amazing opportunityfor the masses to see things
differently around not just dogsbut animals.
And it's happening.
And...
you know, to come back toagain, it's just an amazing
(23:18):
opportunity for me to be a partof.
And yeah, there's so manylayers to it.
Sometimes I feel like I couldtalk about this forever, but
yeah, there's just so manylayers to it.
The language is so important tome.
The Dogs Connect team arealways talking about the
language because it's evolvingso quickly.
We're now using terminologylike emotional ecology.
(23:42):
We're talking about custodians.
We're talking about alignmentand connection.
We're talking about weavingthis in and acknowledging the
wisdom of animals.
And so it's becoming moremeaningful for animals.
It's becoming less of astandalone, overarching
(24:03):
human-driven framework.
It's more and moreanimal-centered, which I love.
I love it for us as humans, butalso for animals and the
evolution of our world.
Leah (24:15):
Oh, yeah.
It really has hugeimplications.
And gosh, there is so much totalk about.
I'm going to pull a couple ofthreads from what you just spoke
about.
The first thing that popped outat me was the obedience
commands.
(24:35):
I've really for a long timetried to explain to people that
once your dog is emotionallyaligned with you, you don't
really need commands.
You kind of hardly even needverbal communication.
I used to give this courseonline where the first two weeks
(24:59):
of the course, I didn't wantthe humans to even speak to the
dog.
They had to do everything withbody language and we were using
food.
I'm getting away even fromusing food because dogs can tend
to perform for food or beshaped or kind of persuaded to
(25:20):
do things that they wouldn't doif the food wasn't there.
And if you get really, reallysensitive to your dog, your dog
ends up getting really sensitiveto you.
And There's just a differentkind of communication that goes
on.
Like my dog will turn and lookat me when she wants to go home.
(25:43):
And there's just like a look,you know.
Or like I'll ask her a questionlike, do you want me to keep
petting your belly?
Like it sounds silly becauseyou think, well, of course she
wants.
Well, sometimes she doesn't.
Sometimes she doesn't feelcomfortable.
like having that contact, youknow?
So instead of just mindlesslypetting the dog, I have like a
(26:05):
little hand gesture.
I use more like sign languagewith my dogs and so that I can
ask them questions and then itjust gets finer and finer in the
tuning and you know how the dogis feeling and you know if they
(26:26):
want contact or wanna be leftalone.
And I do think, you know, mymentor wrote a book called Your
Dog is Your Mirror, and hebasically hypothesized that our
own personal dogs are showing uswhat's unresolved about our
emotional lives.
And so it's really interestingwhat you're bringing up, the way
(26:47):
that society is really quicklychanging how we think about dogs
and how we treat dogs.
That's kind of a mirror also ofhow We are actually taking care
of our emotional selves.
So it just makes total sense tome that what you're doing is
helping people to have a reallysensitive understanding, a
(27:11):
really deep understanding of thedog as an emotional being.
And then that in turn helpspeople to kind of have a better
emotional intelligence abouttheir own emotional needs and
states
Grant (27:28):
yeah there's so much in what you just said there's so
many big concepts and and tothink about let's just think
about dogs for a minute we knowthat they're capable of some
amazing understanding of someamazing communication we have
(27:48):
dogs utilized in the world indifferent places that that
enable them to call on theirsenses to support us in ways
that are, whether we're talkingabout detecting explosives or
rescuing people in rubble ofcollapsed buildings or, you
know, detecting whether it bedisease or contraband or, you
(28:12):
know, there's so many examplesof how dogs seem to have
something that they're capableof that we don't yet comprehend
fully You know, we may never,but for you to think about, you
know, that potentially food andthe idea of, I mean, the idea of
obedience is, I mean, it justdoesn't sit, it's never sat
(28:36):
right with me, but using foodcan make dogs go into perform
mode and shaping their behaviorand it can nullify their
intuitive nature.
And it can also be very usefulfor, in shaping some behaviours,
but you do, as a person who'swith a dog a lot, you do become
at a level where if you tune inenough and if you pay attention
(29:00):
enough as a human, you don'tneed food, you can communicate
very, very acutely withoutverbal cues even.
And, you know, we do this withhumans.
The majority, the vast majorityof our communication is
non-verbal.
I'm talking, it's like 90%.
So to think that we can do thiswith dogs is completely the way
(29:23):
it is.
It's understandable.
It works.
But it requires us to payattention.
It requires us to watch and toobserve and to inquire about,
you know, the most acutemovements that I see in the eyes
of one of the older dog that Ispend time with.
He's 11 years old now.
(29:43):
His name's Sonny.
He can do something veryacutely with his eyes and it can
tell me a lot about what hewants to do in that moment,
where he wants to be, what heexpects from me, what he needs
from me.
We talk about using gestures alot with Dogs Connect and we
talk about reading bodylanguage, understanding,
(30:06):
observing as acutely as we can.
The idea that your dog is yourmirror, I couldn't agree more
that dogs are really clearmirrors.
that they also absorb a lot ofour energetic state too and that
they can.
But the opportunity to have amirror then leads us to
(30:27):
progressing with that thinkingaround, well, then does that
mean that if something's notfeeling right with our dog's
behavior that we need to gointernal and look at ourselves?
And absolutely, yes, it does.
We work with lots of people whotalk to us about their dogs
having anxiety issues Andthere's a push in the world at
the moment that is Westernmedicine approach to dogs being
(30:50):
labeled ADHD.
I've been speaking to peoplewho are telling me their dog's
got autism just recently.
He's got autism now.
Anxiety and that the push isunderpinned by pharmaceutical
medication.
So there's dogs everywherebeing medicated for all of these
things.
Anxiety.
mainly in my experience, dogson Prozac, just sitting around,
(31:14):
just being completely numbedout.
So when we have the opportunityto work with someone who's open
to the idea that their dog maybe looking anxious and that can
we stop there and can we ask,how are you?
How are you in the world at themoment?
10 times out of 10, the personwill say, I'm all over the
(31:36):
place.
I'm anxious.
I'm suffering a bit myself.
10 times out of 10.
So there's no judgment everaround this, but we see it as a
beautiful opportunity to havethe reflection opportunity and
to say, can we be the cause ofchange for our dogs?
Can we be open to that that'san opportunity in what we see in
(31:59):
our dogs can be a reflectionthat we can look at, that we can
say is potentially a mirror.
How am I?
If the dog that I'm reallyattuned with is off today, hang
on a second, how am I today?
I'm in a hurry.
I didn't sleep well.
(32:20):
I'm a bit scattered.
I'm a little bit worried abouta couple of things.
No wonder Heath liked that.
And you can see in a momentwhen that is deliberately
shifted within a person that Ido this really cool activity
with young people and it's alongthese lines and it's linked
(32:42):
directly to polyvagal stuff.
So our state of being, if I canjust digress from a minute and
describe this, it's reallyclosely linked to what we're
talking about.
Standing in front of a group of15 year old humans who are
declared at risk.
And I've been asked to come inwith Sonny, with Sonny the dog
that I've just talked about.
Can you come in with Sonny andcan you do some work with these
(33:03):
kids?
we'd love for you to do some ofyour emotional co-regulation
work we'd love you to talk aboutthe escalation cycle you know
we'd love you to just do yourthing so we come in i go in
without sunny first and i talkabout the fact that i'm about to
walk in with a being that is apretty big dog I talk about him.
(33:25):
I explain where he comes from.
I talk about his name.
I talk about what his behaviormight look like when he comes
into the room.
And I make sure everybody feelsreally safe.
And we've previously vetted thegroup in terms of anybody that
has any fear or considerationsthat we need to work with.
We're not just turning up.
But to come in then to interactwith Sonny, to talk about him
(33:48):
while he's in the room, and toexplain that what I would like
to do is get really into himbeing excited and to play a game
with him.
You know, he loves to play tug.
There's a few things that helikes to play, and he gets
really happy, really excited,and I'll explain that his body
language will change, but I'dlike you to take notice of it.
(34:10):
So watch me play with him forthree minutes, and then we'll
talk about what his body did Sohe gets quite into it.
You know, Sonny's a big dog.
He's like a little horse.
When he gets to the point wherehe's so excited about the game
that we're playing, he growlsreally deeply.
It can sound vicious.
I know him really well.
And I know that his tail isgoing in a very happy direction
(34:35):
whilst he's growling.
I know he's right into it.
But he'll move quickly.
He'll jump around.
He gets quite animated.
We go over the list of what helooked like.
But then I'll ask the group ofyoung people to watch me do it
again.
And at the 60-second mark, Iwant you to watch what I do.
(34:55):
And so at the 60-second mark, Istop and I take the stimulation
out of the equation.
I say, hey, Sonny, come overand stand with me for a minute.
And he'll come over and standwith me.
And I'll sit down onto my kneesand I'll get to his level.
(35:16):
And I'll just be next to him.
And so he'll start to slow downand he'll be next to me.
I'll put my hand on his backand I'll just sit.
And so he and I are now just,we've slowed right down and
we're pretty still next to eachother.
I'll just look into the forwarddirection and I'll take three
(35:40):
really slow, deliberate breaths.
In, out, in.
touching Sonny on the back.
Within approximately 30seconds, he would go from being
really amped to being prettymuch asleep on the ground next
(36:00):
to me.
And so asking the young people,what happened?
Well, you know, what are thefour things that you saw?
I used his name.
I asked him to interact.
We came into each other'spersonal space.
I comforted him.
And I know that the hand on theback is a comfort to him.
If it was a young human, itmight be different.
It might be a totally differentversion of that.
(36:23):
But then I deliberately didsomething with myself.
I stopped.
I slowed my breathing.
I put some structure to my ownphysiology, my heart rate.
I slowed my heart rate downdeliberately.
I did it with my breathing.
I shifted my own state ofbeing.
He mirrored it.
he deescalated rapidly.
(36:45):
So he escalated pretty quick,but he deescalated rapidly.
So we document this and westart to write on our
whiteboards and we look at whatescalation looked like.
And then we look at whatdeescalation looked like.
And we see the structure that'spossible that we have some
control over.
We talk about it in relation toour nervous system.
You know, some of theseescalation can happen in a way
(37:09):
that we don't do deliberately,in a way that's not so pleasant
to experience.
And some of the de-escalationcan take a long time if we don't
know how to have some influenceon it.
So that conversation is reallyeasily linked very strongly to
polyvagal theory andunderstanding how we can have
some impact on some of thethings that are directly related
to our autonomic nervoussystem.
(37:30):
Some of the things that, ifwe're not aware of, are out of
our control.
So, you know, that mirror thatyou talk about, that opportunity
to have that experience or thatFor those 15-year-olds to sit
and watch that after spendinghalf an hour connecting with,
understanding and feeling likethere's a bit of buy-in with
(37:51):
this dog and they want to seehim, they want to watch him, for
them to see that and to be ableto label it and put structure
behind it all within a 60-minuteperiod is something that would
be otherwise potentially verydifficult to teach them.
We're talking about escalating,de-escalating.
We're talking about emotionalregulation, co-regulation.
(38:11):
turning into self-regulation.
We're talking about structurethat's deliberate, that you can
help to manage yourself and yourown state of being.
Utilizing the connection withthis dog makes that, as an
educator, so possible in areally short amount of time,
embedding it, opening upconversations.
(38:33):
Potentially, these learnings ina 60-minute period are
potentially then springboardinginto what are some of the other
breathwork exercises we can do?
What are some of the momentswhere we can catch ourselves in
an escalated state, where we cancatch ourselves having noticed
(38:55):
and grown aware really quicklythat something has just shot us
up, right up on our nervoussystem?
What are the things that we cando in an instant to help shift
it deliberately?
These are potentiallylife-changing moments.
These are young people who areon the verge of prison, that are
standing in the room, that cansnap into violent behavior from
(39:18):
an autonomic nervous systemlevel.
They don't deliberately choosethis stuff.
They have big impacts on theirnervous system.
So bringing some awareness tothis and opening up the idea
that we can have some impact onit through the connection with
this dog in a really shortperiod in one room is, you know,
(39:39):
that's the mirror.
That's the effect.
That's the power that thisconnection has.
And that's where I think Dr.
Stephen Porges could see therelationship and where the
conversation was opened up.
You know, he wanted to talkabout it.
I wanted to talk to him.
You know, there's a reallystrong link here to how we
understand trauma and how thisconnection can be powerful.
(40:00):
And it's on offer.
to us as humans.
And I get emotional about it.
I get excited about it.
I get passionate about it.
You know, we've got millions ofdogs in our lives and this is
on offer and it is huge.
(40:21):
So to be able to come back toit and say, helping people with
bringing different terminologyto it, bringing in a slightly
different lens.
You know, we don't want the dogto be trained.
We want to understand the dog.
We want to bring him in so hecan feel safe, so he can have
some choice.
We don't want him to look at meand go, yeah, but if I do that,
(40:44):
will I get the treat?
Will I get the reward?
What do you want next?
What do you want next?
We want him to come in and go,oh, yeah, I know this place.
I know this girl, Leah.
I've seen her before.
I'm going to go and say helloto her.
You know, I'm comfortable here.
This is cool.
We get connection here.
That's what we want.
for humans, dogs on a bigscale.
(41:05):
You know, it's on offer.
It's amazing.
Leah (41:10):
Yeah, you just hit on like all the main points that I have
on my little list here.
So I want to just kind ofintuitively feel through it.
I mean, all that is incredibleto me.
I'm going in this directionwith my clients who have dogs
where...
I'm asking them to do breathwork and see how it affects the
(41:34):
dogs, even taking three deepbreaths, or if you want to get
technical, a physiological sigh,and then seeing what effect
that has not only on theiremotional state, but almost
immediately, like you said, itgets mirrored in the dog.
I actually want to put on aworkshop where, what are those
(41:58):
little It's like a pulse ox thatyou put on your finger and it
reads your heart rate and youroxygen level.
So I would love to do like alittle mini workshop where
people are actually wearingthose and they can correlate and
understand how making a choiceto take a deep breath is having
(42:25):
a physiological and emotionalimpact.
And then I don't think we wantto hook the dogs up to a machine
to read their state, but justbeing able to look at the
reflection in the dogs.
Yeah, and you keep talkingabout safety, that the dog has
(42:45):
to feel safe.
And I don't want to get too inthe weeds with polyvagal theory,
but understanding neuroception,that the priority of the
nervous system is to detect cuesof danger and cues of safety
and react accordingly, and howobserving neuroception in the
dog is such a powerful way tounderstand that the dog's
(43:13):
behavior is really a product oftheir nervous system and
whatever state they're in, ifit's fight, flight, freeze, or
fawn.
And so you take theintentionality out of that by
understanding, oh, the dog isreading the room as either safe
or not safe, and they kind ofdon't have a choice necessarily
(43:39):
It's all internally beingdecided for them.
And a lot of time, I think weare operating like that as well.
But we get these brief momentswhere it's like, oh, wait, I can
decide to take a deep breathright now.
But a lot of the time, it's thesame for us.
We have programs that we'rerunning on based on What we
(44:02):
learned was safe or what welearned was dangerous.
As we were growing up aschildren, then we see those cues
in the world and we may not betotally in control of our
reaction based on what's goingon.
So that's really awesome thatyou're able to show that to
people.
Grant (44:22):
Yeah, and a lot of the time...
When you said a lot of the timeit's the same for people, it's
the same.
So when we learn this aboutdogs, when we talk about
neuroception, I've not oftenused the word neuroception with
young people, but the concept isexactly what we explore.
And so learning about theseconcepts in regard to Sunny is
(44:46):
learning about them, period.
So they apply across the board.
They apply to humans.
And by the way, we used to haveyoung people come out and...
and take Sonny's heart rate.
You know, we'd do it, we woulddo it by feel.
Every now and then we'd do itwith a stethoscope.
He was up for it.
You know, this was his calling.
(45:07):
You know, this is what this dogloved to do and he did it
really well.
You know, he's got a presence.
He's got something specialabout him, but we would take his
heart rate and we'd feel wherehis heart was.
We would count.
his heart rate, we would gethuman heart rate skyrocket
(45:27):
really quick and we would dobreathing exercises that brought
it down.
We would talk about what wouldhis heart rate need to be, what
would it get to, what would thepoint be where we would declare
him unable to focus, unable tohear, unable to learn, unable to
respond to me if I was usinghis name and saying, Sonny, you
need to come over here, it'ssafer over here.
(45:49):
we work out that there washeart rates and zones that we
could then correlate directly tohuman zones.
And we would have 10-year-oldstudents standing at the door of
the classroom, looking at theirwatch, checking their pulse
after these workshops andsaying, I'll be in in about 40
seconds.
I'm still on 115 and they knewthey needed to be between 60 and
(46:12):
80 to come back into the roombecause that enabled them to be
in an environment that felt safefor everyone and in an
environment where they couldengage in dialogue and listen
and focus and be on task.
So they'd call it ready tolearn.
I'll be ready to learn in 40seconds.
And this all came from doing itwith Sunny, you know, and
saying, What's the cap?
What does his heart rate getto?
(46:33):
And then he's outside of histhreshold of being ready to
learn or ready to focus orengage.
And what's too low for Sonny?
What would be unhealthy for himto be?
And then we talk about, well,if he was just laying around all
day, you know, probably nothealthy for him.
His muscles will become weak.
He'll be potentially not activein the brain.
(46:55):
And so we explore all of theseconcepts in relation to a dog
first and they're very easy toembed in the human context.
The beauty of this is, youknow, when you talk about
mirror, these concepts applyacross the board.
You know, it's just such afantastic opportunity through
connection with a dog to engagein learning this and the
(47:17):
breathwork that you're thinkingabout with your workshops and
the breathwork that you do, youknow, in whatever way that you
do it.
It's just such a...
Such a reliable, powerfulvisual for people to see this
reflected by their dog and by abeing that they know they can
rely on, that they know wellenough to see and to say, this
(47:39):
is real.
Dogs don't fake this.
So really amazing opportunity.
I just keep coming back tothinking, I'm just so grateful
that to dogs and so grateful foran opportunity to be in this
realm where there's people,there's like-minded people like
you, you know, there's peopleacross this planet who are, you
(48:00):
know, growing in awarenessrapidly around how this is
evolving and what it can be.
And dogs are loving it too.
You know, they're stepping upto the plate when, when a
climate is set right for a dogin a place like a school, you,
you, can see it in their walkyou know they walk with
confidence they walk knowingthey're safe they walk knowing
(48:23):
that they're valued you knowthey they kind of prance around
like they're pretty special youknow um we hear people say that
that he walks around like he's arock star in this place and so
he should because he kind of isyou know he's different to us
all he's bringing he isindividually as one being
(48:44):
bringing thousands of smiles andbright moments and he's walking
around like he knows he's doingit you know so that's the
difference between a dog that'sfocused on what we want from it
you know what is this outcomethat's expected and and what
have you been trained to do thedifference is huge when you see
(49:05):
a dog that has been brought inwith authentic opportunities to
connect and for it to bemutually, reciprocally offered
as an opportunity that he cantake or leave.
So yeah, every time you speak,it makes so much come to mind
about there's just so much inthis.
(49:26):
It's so big and so beautifuland the opportunities are...
just beginning to go to whatfeels to me like a real new
level between dogs and humans.
And I absolutely love it.
I
Leah (49:41):
just kind of got the feeling like this might actually
be a good place to start towrap up, even though I know that
you and I could go off on somany different tangents.
And I think this was like areally good introduction to what
you're doing with the DogsConnect organization and then,
(50:05):
you know, giving people some ofthese concepts without getting,
again, without getting too inthe weeds on polyvagal theory.
So I just really appreciatethis instant kind of rapport
that we had because we have someof the same ideas and
(50:29):
passionate about some of thesame things around how people
are interacting and learningfrom dogs and how, like you
said, really quickly ourunderstanding of dogs is
evolving.
And so, yeah, if there'sanything else you want to, and
don't feel like we have to wrapup quickly, but if there's
(50:52):
anything else specifically aboutyour program that you want to
share, like if there was a, youknow, something that we didn't
touch on that you thought wasimportant?
I
Grant (51:03):
don't have anything about our program, our organization
that I really want to share orpush or anything.
I would just urge people tofeel that it's evolving and
continue to pay more attentionto the animals that are around
you.
In particular, if you've got adog in your life, watch more
closely and let it evolve.
(51:23):
It's happening and feel it.
is what I would love morepeople to do.
And if that's happening withone or two people as a result of
this conversation, then that'sawesome.
Leah (51:36):
Yeah, I totally agree.
So if people are curious tolearn more, can they get in
touch with you through thewebsite or how would you like to
connect with people?
Grant (51:47):
Website is the easiest.
There's website contact.
There's email on there.
Basically, we'll talk to anyonewho's interested in learning
more.
We're really passionate aboutit.
The Dogs Connect team loveswhat they do.
So go to the website.
It's just Dogs Connect.
And we'll be here.
(52:09):
We'll be here forever,hopefully.
We love it.
Leah (52:13):
Okay, cool.
And then if anyone's interestedin the virtual course that's on
the Polyvagal Institute, that'show I found you.
But I will post all the linksto your website, your social
channels.
And yeah, I'm so grateful thatwe got to have this conversation
(52:36):
and that we're helping movethings forward together.
in that really excitingevolution that's happening in
the relationship between humansand dogs.
So thank you so much.
Grant (52:52):
Thank you, Leah.
It's a pleasure.
Welcome back, friends, to another episode of the Somatic
Hound podcast.
Today, I am very excited to bespeaking with Grant Shannon, the
founder of Dogs Connect.
And I would like to let Grantjust introduce himself, tell you
a little bit about hisbackground, and then how this
(00:23):
organization got started.
Grant (00:27):
Hi Leah, thank you for having me.
Okay, so my name's Grant.
I'm the founder of anorganization called Dogs
Connect.
What we do at Dogs Connect isbasically we support other
organizations in building what Iwould call really thorough and
healthy process around the ideaof introducing and bringing a
(00:47):
dog into the community.
And whether that be a workplaceor a school or a community
health organization or ahospital or a sports club,
teaching those kinds oforganisations what we believe
needs to be considered and putin place so that this can be
done in a healthy way, in directrelation to the animals first
(01:10):
and foremost, but also asustainable way so that that
meaningful, positive connectioncan be something that's felt
mutually in an ongoing way.
And so that's what we do.
in terms of the background it'sa little bit of a story and if
we've got time for a littlestory basically this all started
(01:33):
over a decade ago now i wasworking as a school teacher in
australia and was working withpeople probably around the age
of 10 years old and I wasbecoming more and more convinced
that what was a typicaleducation setting, and I know
through talking to youpreviously, there's some very
(01:56):
strong similarities.
They're probably universallypretty similar to education
across the world.
Feeling like those settingsweren't really allowing and
supporting these particularyoung people in ways that I
thought they needed to beallowed and supported.
(02:16):
and connected.
So the typical come in, sitdown, listen to me, I'm the
teacher, sit still for hours, doeverything the same as everyone
else does it, it just kind ofdidn't sit right with me.
So that combined with some ofthe young people that I was
working with had some prettyunique needs and they needed to
(02:40):
be supported through learninghow to navigate their emotions
mainly is what I think the needwas.
Because when this was somethingthat they weren't able to do,
their emotions could take overand could become, you know,
somewhat out of control and outof their control, certainly.
And it's not for anyone else tobe able to control it, is my
(03:01):
thinking.
So the idea was, can we connectthese people with an animal?
Because I was at the same timeI was managing the school farm,
which was an operational farm.
And I was seeing these youngpeople who were having lots of
challenging times in managingthemselves and their emotions.
(03:23):
I was seeing them differentlyaround the animals and they were
different around the animals.
It was really plain to see whatsome of the other educators
would call really bad behavior.
Wasn't the term I would use,but behaviors that were
(03:43):
challenging would just melt awayaround the animals.
And you would see these youngpeople become able to
co-regulate.
Their state of being wouldchange rapidly.
And that would be around cows,sheep, alpacas, pigs, chickens.
And my thinking was, this iswhat these people need.
(04:05):
It's one of the things thatwe've got on our doorstep.
But I can't bring a big boar, abig pig, a big cow, a big wild
animal into the classroom.
But there must be an animalthat we can bring in.
And I have felt an affiliationwith dogs all of my life.
So there was the idea, can webring a dog in?
(04:25):
The answer was yes when I askedthe question to the person who
was in charge of the school.
It was coupled with some...
I was doing at the time as partof some postgraduate studies.
That research was directlyabout student wellbeing and it
was about applied learning.
So coupling it with theresearch and seeing the need and
(04:53):
having the opportunity was thisperfect storm of where this all
began.
So I went about building thisas a full-time teacher, building
something that was enabling ayoung dog to come into the
classroom in a way that we feltwas safe for the dog safe for
(05:14):
people it's been rapidlyevolving ever since the impact
initially was mind-blowing andit still is to this very day i
have interactions with peoplethat that give me goosebumps
from the stories and the impactsand and so it feels like it
started a long time ago but thefeeling of it rapidly evolving
(05:37):
is constant and it's still heretoday, which is something I
love.
Leah (05:43):
That's awesome.
Yeah, I probably should havestarted with how I found you or
how we connected because Itypically find people through
following their content onYouTube or Instagram and I found
your work If you want to callit that, the class that you have
(06:05):
on Polyvagal Institute, becauseI've been studying Dr.
Porges' work and Depdana andhow to bring those concepts into
my dog training, if you caneven call it that, which we're
going to get into some of thelanguage stuff that we also have
(06:28):
in common in terms of how wework with dogs.
the dogs and what are weactually really doing?
Is it even training?
But yeah, I took your course onthe Polyvagal Institute, which
is like an overview of whatyou're doing with your
organization.
(06:48):
And then when we did our littlepre-interview chat, you know, I
realized, which I don't knowwhy that didn't come to mind
earlier but my mom had been ateacher in the special education
field specifically withelementary school kids and then
when I was home from college Iused to substitute sometimes in
(07:11):
her classroom with her butdefinitely getting a feeling for
what's going on in classroomsthis was a long time ago I hope
there's something like this inthe in the United States.
I didn't even ask you that.
If you have any...
If you guys are internationalor...
Grant (07:31):
At the moment, we're not.
But I do believe this ishappening in little pockets
globally.
And it's a real grey areaacross the world in that it's
really difficult because it'sevolving more rapidly than the
governing bodies and thegovernance itself.
You know...
(07:51):
to come back to talking aboutDr.
Porges and the polyvagaltheory.
When I first started to buildthis program, I was, I'm as
excited today as I was backthen, but I was in a place where
I was discovering that sciencewas underpinning what we were
(08:13):
doing.
And I was really excited tocome across the polyvagal
material.
And I would listen to, Iremember driving for hours and
hours from one school to anotherand traveling the countryside.
It's a really big place.
It's not unusual to be drivingfor six hours here and just to
go to another school.
So listening to Dr.
(08:34):
Stephen Porter's talk for hoursand hours on end and being
really excited about it becauseit aligned really strongly with
what we were doing and what ourvision was.
and it really excited me sothat has been you know something
that underpins science isunderpinning what we're doing
more and more and more we'll getto the terminology and that
(08:55):
really excites me because youand i are really aligned with
some of the terminology that wewant to move away from and that
we some of the terminology wewant to move towards but i think
that the governance that youknow that the governing bodies
that the this concept ofintroducing a dog and building
(09:16):
the idea differently in thatthis is not a trained dog in
inverted commas that comes inand can just take what we think
we can inflict or put towardsthis dog or expose this dog to
that it's different and thatit's about building relationship
(09:37):
and it's about bringing a doginto a place in a way that is
considering that the dog mustfeel safe and must feel that it
can naturally connect withpeople on its own terms.
It needs to be mutual andreciprocally offered.
And the dogs must have choice.
And so that's really differentfor a lot of people.
(09:57):
It's certainly different from alot of what the governance and
a lot of what would be, I guess,legislation.
A lot of the legislation thatwe align with is really, really
old.
It's 1970s, 1980s.
It's really basic stuff.
It's like shelter, food, water.
This is what animals need.
(10:17):
I feel like animals and the waywe perceive animals is probably
more the way to put it, isevolving really rapidly.
People often ask me, what is itthat I love the most about what
we do?
And my answer is truly, deeplythe same every single time.
I love that we're helpingpeople to see dogs differently.
(10:39):
to think about them differentlyand to feel about them
differently.
Because it wasn't that long agothat dogs were in the backyard,
being fed total crap, beingtold to shut up when they
barked.
And it's changing really,really quickly.
You know, our culture ashumans, the way we bring dogs
in, the way we're buildingrelationships.
(11:01):
There's countries where dogshave their own opah, you know,
their own human assistant.
And, and, this might be afamily who have an opah for
their children and another opahfor their dog.
You know, so we're seeing dogsand the role that they play
evolving really rapidly and therelationships that humans build
(11:22):
and the way that we're weavinginto acknowledging the animal
wisdom that we have theopportunity to learn from and
invite into our lives andconnect with.
So, I mean, That is going farbeyond and far more rapidly than
(11:43):
what we'd call legislation orgovernance.
So in a way, what we're doingin helping people to see this
differently is going to bringpolicy and it's going to bring
legislation and it's going tobring the governing bodies
along, hopefully in thisdirection, because it's
undeniable.
(12:04):
It's undeniable that the waywe...
exist with dogs.
I mean, if we stop, just stopfor a minute and think about how
many people in the world havedogs in their lives that they
would genuinely call one oftheir best friends, if not their
best friend.
When people say, how many dogsdo you have?
(12:26):
I don't say I've got two dogs.
I say there's two dogs who I'mthe servant of, who I live with,
who I hang out with.
They're my best mates.
I don't own them.
I'm responsible for them.
I'm their guardian.
But, you know, if you thinkabout the amount of people in
the world that would say, yes,there's a dog in my life and he
or she is my best mate and I doeverything I can to, you know, I
(12:49):
drive these dogs around towherever they need to be.
I walk around with them.
You know, I pick up after them.
I cater for them.
They eat better than I do.
I'm not joking.
I'm a little bit, maybe alittle bit different too.
many people, but the way we areexisting with dogs is evolving
(13:10):
really rapidly.
The language is evolving reallyrapidly.
And I think part of our missionas Dogs Connect is to support
humans and to support positivehuman animal relationships, to
support the wellbeing beingfostered, the emotional the
(13:34):
emotional coherence, if youlike, within the relationships.
It's really exciting.
It's a great space for me to bein because I'm so passionate
about it.
And people are open to thisevolving.
People want this to move.
It's happening reallynaturally.
You know, we're talking aboutanimals in a really different
way.
We feel about them differently.
(13:55):
You know, so many people aretalking about that we've got so
much to learn from animals now.
not just dogs, animals.
It's just amazing for me to beable to live and breathe and
work in that space.
I love it.
Leah (14:15):
Yeah, that's really cool because that's how I am with my
dogs.
They eat real food.
I'm constantly thinking abouthave they had enough enrichment
today or enough exercise orenough emotional connection?
(14:37):
And then the interesting thingis some of my language and
concepts are still a littlebehind because even when we
started talking, I was like, oh,it's so cool how you use the
dogs to teach people about thenervous system.
And then we right away startedtalking about language and how,
(15:00):
you know, We don't really wantto even use that phrase of using
the dog because the dog is notthe tool.
The connection to the dog isthe tool.
And so even I am like reallyquickly upgrading my language
(15:22):
and making sure that I'm inalignment with how I actually
feel about the dogs and I alsocame to you with this concept
that you were training the dogsto kind of perform some sort of
task the way we do here in termsof service dogs.
Like in order for a dog to beclassified as a service dog, it
(15:45):
has to be trained to perform aspecific task.
So I was under the initialimpression that like there was
some sort of program that thedogs had to go through so that
they could then perform a jobsort of in service where what
you and i are now talking aboutis like kind of flipping that
(16:07):
paradigm on its head and reallyjust like allowing the dog to be
there and studying the dog soif you want to jump in there
yeah
Grant (16:18):
but flipping it totally on its head and you're right in
that most people think thisneeds to be about training a dog
and You know, I'm talking abouteducation settings.
I'm talking about youth justicesettings.
I'm talking about hospitals,community care organisations,
sports clubs.
People say in theirpreconceived idearies, so the
(16:43):
dog must pass a test.
The dog must be ready.
The dog must be trained.
We are flipping it entirelyonto its head and saying, no,
no.
Obviously, the dog needs to beappropriate to have around.
Quite often common sense isenough that we need there.
Sometimes it's moreunderstanding.
And part of our job at DogsConnect is to build that
(17:04):
understanding, to help peoplebuild it.
It's not really hard to do.
But the other end of the stickis, no, we're not training dogs.
I don't even use the word dogtraining.
We use the term understandingdogs.
We've had to shift from thevery beginning, never felt right
to me to say obedience, toexpect obedience.
To use the word command feelsvery human heavy.
(17:27):
To use the word understandinginstead of obedience to talk
about expectations,communication, relationships.
flipping it now into sayingit's the human's responsibility.
It's the human's job.
It's humans who are in chargeof what happens.
(17:48):
We can bring a dog into aschool and say this dog is
trained to the highest level.
And to come back just veryquickly to assistance, dogs are
different because they aretrained to assist people who
need assistance.
And that might be a youngperson with cerebral palsy needs
help to pick something up whenthey've dropped it.
Or it might be to assist peoplethat have, you know, that have
(18:11):
been through traumaticoccurrences in their life and
that now they require a certainlevel of assistance, it might be
assisting someone who's visionimpaired to cross a busy road.
That's a serious assistance.
The dogs we're talking aboutintroducing, they're about
connectedness, they're aboutcompanionship, they're about
(18:34):
bright moments, they're aboutthe natural feelings that that
when people and dogs areconnected authentically, that
naturally occur.
You know, the science talksabout it.
It's oxytocin release.
The moment you look into adog's eye, when you have a
connection with that dog, youget an oxytocin release.
So does the dog.
You know, that's that lovefeeling that's talked about, the
(18:55):
hug feeling.
But basically we're flipping iton its head and saying humans,
it's up to humans to buildprocess.
to build their understanding,to make sure that they can honor
what dogs bring and what thisindividual being is.
This dog is a sentient beingthat has his or her own
(19:16):
emotional experiences.
She doesn't talk our language,but we can understand her.
We can learn to understand hervery acutely and that we must,
and we must consider her inbringing her into this very
dynamic place where she ispotentially and likely to be the
(19:36):
most vulnerable being in theplace.
That's a big statement, butit's quite often very true.
Dogs don't get to even go tothe toilet unless we allow it.
They don't get water unless weallow it.
In a school, they don't getfresh air unless people think
about it and plan it and say,this dog hasn't been outside for
(19:58):
hours.
No wonder it looks like it'ssleepy.
It's been under anair-conditioned, controlled
environment for three hours.
They're teaching people how tomake sure they consider
everything that dogs need and tooffer it to dogs so that dogs
can live a balanced work life.
And by balanced, I mean not somuch work and play balance.
I mean what are the things theyneed in their day and let's get
(20:19):
them balanced.
Let's make sure they getexercise, fresh air.
Let's make sure they get someinteraction if and when they
want it, that they get to sitand observe because they learn
from observing just like we do.
let's make sure they get toiletopportunities, fresh air
opportunities.
Let's make sure they get timeto just be passively away from
it all.
So these are, I guess, obviousto us as what dogs need, but
(20:47):
they're not obvious to everyonebecause not everyone has the
experience or the naturalability to kind of see things
through a dog's perspective.
And educating people aroundthat and having people build
process, build protocol, buildunderstanding, get to a point
where, yes, we can do this in away that we are confident that
we're assessing our dog'swell-being and state of being
(21:10):
and health.
We are confident that we areable to understand this dog and
when he or she indicates thatshe likes, doesn't like, loves,
can't stand, wants out, wantsmore of, that we can respond
accordingly in the moment.
And so That's about upskillingpeople a little bit, not a lot.
The beauty of this is, and tocome back to the polyvagal
(21:33):
theory, is this is universalstuff.
You know, most of it's aboutthe way humans interact
interpersonally as well.
It's really easy to understand.
And when the opportunity is tounderstand it in the context of
a dog, it's quite often beingdisarmed, as in it's not
personal.
It's not about me potentiallydoing this wrong or with, to,
(21:54):
around, or for you.
It's about trying to do it withan animal that is offering
unconditionally most of thetime.
It's about trying to do it in arelational setting where
barriers have come down, wherethis natural connection with
(22:14):
these animals, with these dogs,is a conduit to this
understanding that that leads tothe likelihood of these
understandings landing.
With people of young age andmature people as well, these
understandings landing much moreclearly and being embedded with
(22:34):
much more ease because there isno threat.
It's not me talking to youabout what you need to do.
It's you interacting with a dogand learning that you need to
try and understand this animalbecause you would naturally care
about it once the connection'sthere.
And so weaving all of thattogether and weaving it into
(22:55):
communities and cultures andweaving it into spaces and
places and where there's lots ofpeople, I mean, in my thinking,
this is an amazing opportunityfor the masses to see things
differently around not just dogsbut animals.
And it's happening.
And...
you know, to come back toagain, it's just an amazing
(23:18):
opportunity for me to be a partof.
And yeah, there's so manylayers to it.
Sometimes I feel like I couldtalk about this forever, but
yeah, there's just so manylayers to it.
The language is so important tome.
The Dogs Connect team arealways talking about the
language because it's evolvingso quickly.
We're now using terminologylike emotional ecology.
(23:42):
We're talking about custodians.
We're talking about alignmentand connection.
We're talking about weavingthis in and acknowledging the
wisdom of animals.
And so it's becoming moremeaningful for animals.
It's becoming less of astandalone, overarching
(24:03):
human-driven framework.
It's more and moreanimal-centered, which I love.
I love it for us as humans, butalso for animals and the
evolution of our world.
Leah (24:15):
Oh, yeah.
It really has hugeimplications.
And gosh, there is so much totalk about.
I'm going to pull a couple ofthreads from what you just spoke
about.
The first thing that popped outat me was the obedience
commands.
(24:35):
I've really for a long timetried to explain to people that
once your dog is emotionallyaligned with you, you don't
really need commands.
You kind of hardly even needverbal communication.
I used to give this courseonline where the first two weeks
(24:59):
of the course, I didn't wantthe humans to even speak to the
dog.
They had to do everything withbody language and we were using
food.
I'm getting away even fromusing food because dogs can tend
to perform for food or beshaped or kind of persuaded to
(25:20):
do things that they wouldn't doif the food wasn't there.
And if you get really, reallysensitive to your dog, your dog
ends up getting really sensitiveto you.
And There's just a differentkind of communication that goes
on.
Like my dog will turn and lookat me when she wants to go home.
(25:43):
And there's just like a look,you know.
Or like I'll ask her a questionlike, do you want me to keep
petting your belly?
Like it sounds silly becauseyou think, well, of course she
wants.
Well, sometimes she doesn't.
Sometimes she doesn't feelcomfortable.
like having that contact, youknow?
So instead of just mindlesslypetting the dog, I have like a
(26:05):
little hand gesture.
I use more like sign languagewith my dogs and so that I can
ask them questions and then itjust gets finer and finer in the
tuning and you know how the dogis feeling and you know if they
(26:26):
want contact or wanna be leftalone.
And I do think, you know, mymentor wrote a book called Your
Dog is Your Mirror, and hebasically hypothesized that our
own personal dogs are showing uswhat's unresolved about our
emotional lives.
And so it's really interestingwhat you're bringing up, the way
(26:47):
that society is really quicklychanging how we think about dogs
and how we treat dogs.
That's kind of a mirror also ofhow We are actually taking care
of our emotional selves.
So it just makes total sense tome that what you're doing is
helping people to have a reallysensitive understanding, a
(27:11):
really deep understanding of thedog as an emotional being.
And then that in turn helpspeople to kind of have a better
emotional intelligence abouttheir own emotional needs and
states
Grant (27:28):
yeah there's so much in what you just said there's so
many big concepts and and tothink about let's just think
about dogs for a minute we knowthat they're capable of some
amazing understanding of someamazing communication we have
(27:48):
dogs utilized in the world indifferent places that that
enable them to call on theirsenses to support us in ways
that are, whether we're talkingabout detecting explosives or
rescuing people in rubble ofcollapsed buildings or, you
know, detecting whether it bedisease or contraband or, you
(28:12):
know, there's so many examplesof how dogs seem to have
something that they're capableof that we don't yet comprehend
fully You know, we may never,but for you to think about, you
know, that potentially food andthe idea of, I mean, the idea of
obedience is, I mean, it justdoesn't sit, it's never sat
(28:36):
right with me, but using foodcan make dogs go into perform
mode and shaping their behaviorand it can nullify their
intuitive nature.
And it can also be very usefulfor, in shaping some behaviours,
but you do, as a person who'swith a dog a lot, you do become
at a level where if you tune inenough and if you pay attention
(29:00):
enough as a human, you don'tneed food, you can communicate
very, very acutely withoutverbal cues even.
And, you know, we do this withhumans.
The majority, the vast majorityof our communication is
non-verbal.
I'm talking, it's like 90%.
So to think that we can do thiswith dogs is completely the way
(29:23):
it is.
It's understandable.
It works.
But it requires us to payattention.
It requires us to watch and toobserve and to inquire about,
you know, the most acutemovements that I see in the eyes
of one of the older dog that Ispend time with.
He's 11 years old now.
(29:43):
His name's Sonny.
He can do something veryacutely with his eyes and it can
tell me a lot about what hewants to do in that moment,
where he wants to be, what heexpects from me, what he needs
from me.
We talk about using gestures alot with Dogs Connect and we
talk about reading bodylanguage, understanding,
(30:06):
observing as acutely as we can.
The idea that your dog is yourmirror, I couldn't agree more
that dogs are really clearmirrors.
that they also absorb a lot ofour energetic state too and that
they can.
But the opportunity to have amirror then leads us to
(30:27):
progressing with that thinkingaround, well, then does that
mean that if something's notfeeling right with our dog's
behavior that we need to gointernal and look at ourselves?
And absolutely, yes, it does.
We work with lots of people whotalk to us about their dogs
having anxiety issues Andthere's a push in the world at
the moment that is Westernmedicine approach to dogs being
(30:50):
labeled ADHD.
I've been speaking to peoplewho are telling me their dog's
got autism just recently.
He's got autism now.
Anxiety and that the push isunderpinned by pharmaceutical
medication.
So there's dogs everywherebeing medicated for all of these
things.
Anxiety.
mainly in my experience, dogson Prozac, just sitting around,
(31:14):
just being completely numbedout.
So when we have the opportunityto work with someone who's open
to the idea that their dog maybe looking anxious and that can
we stop there and can we ask,how are you?
How are you in the world at themoment?
10 times out of 10, the personwill say, I'm all over the
(31:36):
place.
I'm anxious.
I'm suffering a bit myself.
10 times out of 10.
So there's no judgment everaround this, but we see it as a
beautiful opportunity to havethe reflection opportunity and
to say, can we be the cause ofchange for our dogs?
Can we be open to that that'san opportunity in what we see in
(31:59):
our dogs can be a reflectionthat we can look at, that we can
say is potentially a mirror.
How am I?
If the dog that I'm reallyattuned with is off today, hang
on a second, how am I today?
I'm in a hurry.
I didn't sleep well.
(32:20):
I'm a bit scattered.
I'm a little bit worried abouta couple of things.
No wonder Heath liked that.
And you can see in a momentwhen that is deliberately
shifted within a person that Ido this really cool activity
with young people and it's alongthese lines and it's linked
(32:42):
directly to polyvagal stuff.
So our state of being, if I canjust digress from a minute and
describe this, it's reallyclosely linked to what we're
talking about.
Standing in front of a group of15 year old humans who are
declared at risk.
And I've been asked to come inwith Sonny, with Sonny the dog
that I've just talked about.
Can you come in with Sonny andcan you do some work with these
(33:03):
kids?
we'd love for you to do some ofyour emotional co-regulation
work we'd love you to talk aboutthe escalation cycle you know
we'd love you to just do yourthing so we come in i go in
without sunny first and i talkabout the fact that i'm about to
walk in with a being that is apretty big dog I talk about him.
(33:25):
I explain where he comes from.
I talk about his name.
I talk about what his behaviormight look like when he comes
into the room.
And I make sure everybody feelsreally safe.
And we've previously vetted thegroup in terms of anybody that
has any fear or considerationsthat we need to work with.
We're not just turning up.
But to come in then to interactwith Sonny, to talk about him
(33:48):
while he's in the room, and toexplain that what I would like
to do is get really into himbeing excited and to play a game
with him.
You know, he loves to play tug.
There's a few things that helikes to play, and he gets
really happy, really excited,and I'll explain that his body
language will change, but I'dlike you to take notice of it.
(34:10):
So watch me play with him forthree minutes, and then we'll
talk about what his body did Sohe gets quite into it.
You know, Sonny's a big dog.
He's like a little horse.
When he gets to the point wherehe's so excited about the game
that we're playing, he growlsreally deeply.
It can sound vicious.
I know him really well.
And I know that his tail isgoing in a very happy direction
(34:35):
whilst he's growling.
I know he's right into it.
But he'll move quickly.
He'll jump around.
He gets quite animated.
We go over the list of what helooked like.
But then I'll ask the group ofyoung people to watch me do it
again.
And at the 60-second mark, Iwant you to watch what I do.
(34:55):
And so at the 60-second mark, Istop and I take the stimulation
out of the equation.
I say, hey, Sonny, come overand stand with me for a minute.
And he'll come over and standwith me.
And I'll sit down onto my kneesand I'll get to his level.
(35:16):
And I'll just be next to him.
And so he'll start to slow downand he'll be next to me.
I'll put my hand on his backand I'll just sit.
And so he and I are now just,we've slowed right down and
we're pretty still next to eachother.
I'll just look into the forwarddirection and I'll take three
(35:40):
really slow, deliberate breaths.
In, out, in.
touching Sonny on the back.
Within approximately 30seconds, he would go from being
really amped to being prettymuch asleep on the ground next
(36:00):
to me.
And so asking the young people,what happened?
Well, you know, what are thefour things that you saw?
I used his name.
I asked him to interact.
We came into each other'spersonal space.
I comforted him.
And I know that the hand on theback is a comfort to him.
If it was a young human, itmight be different.
It might be a totally differentversion of that.
(36:23):
But then I deliberately didsomething with myself.
I stopped.
I slowed my breathing.
I put some structure to my ownphysiology, my heart rate.
I slowed my heart rate downdeliberately.
I did it with my breathing.
I shifted my own state ofbeing.
He mirrored it.
he deescalated rapidly.
(36:45):
So he escalated pretty quick,but he deescalated rapidly.
So we document this and westart to write on our
whiteboards and we look at whatescalation looked like.
And then we look at whatdeescalation looked like.
And we see the structure that'spossible that we have some
control over.
We talk about it in relation toour nervous system.
You know, some of theseescalation can happen in a way
(37:09):
that we don't do deliberately,in a way that's not so pleasant
to experience.
And some of the de-escalationcan take a long time if we don't
know how to have some influenceon it.
So that conversation is reallyeasily linked very strongly to
polyvagal theory andunderstanding how we can have
some impact on some of thethings that are directly related
to our autonomic nervoussystem.
(37:30):
Some of the things that, ifwe're not aware of, are out of
our control.
So, you know, that mirror thatyou talk about, that opportunity
to have that experience or thatFor those 15-year-olds to sit
and watch that after spendinghalf an hour connecting with,
understanding and feeling likethere's a bit of buy-in with
(37:51):
this dog and they want to seehim, they want to watch him, for
them to see that and to be ableto label it and put structure
behind it all within a 60-minuteperiod is something that would
be otherwise potentially verydifficult to teach them.
We're talking about escalating,de-escalating.
We're talking about emotionalregulation, co-regulation.
(38:11):
turning into self-regulation.
We're talking about structurethat's deliberate, that you can
help to manage yourself and yourown state of being.
Utilizing the connection withthis dog makes that, as an
educator, so possible in areally short amount of time,
embedding it, opening upconversations.
(38:33):
Potentially, these learnings ina 60-minute period are
potentially then springboardinginto what are some of the other
breathwork exercises we can do?
What are some of the momentswhere we can catch ourselves in
an escalated state, where we cancatch ourselves having noticed
(38:55):
and grown aware really quicklythat something has just shot us
up, right up on our nervoussystem?
What are the things that we cando in an instant to help shift
it deliberately?
These are potentiallylife-changing moments.
These are young people who areon the verge of prison, that are
standing in the room, that cansnap into violent behavior from
(39:18):
an autonomic nervous systemlevel.
They don't deliberately choosethis stuff.
They have big impacts on theirnervous system.
So bringing some awareness tothis and opening up the idea
that we can have some impact onit through the connection with
this dog in a really shortperiod in one room is, you know,
(39:39):
that's the mirror.
That's the effect.
That's the power that thisconnection has.
And that's where I think Dr.
Stephen Porges could see therelationship and where the
conversation was opened up.
You know, he wanted to talkabout it.
I wanted to talk to him.
You know, there's a reallystrong link here to how we
understand trauma and how thisconnection can be powerful.
(40:00):
And it's on offer.
to us as humans.
And I get emotional about it.
I get excited about it.
I get passionate about it.
You know, we've got millions ofdogs in our lives and this is
on offer and it is huge.
(40:21):
So to be able to come back toit and say, helping people with
bringing different terminologyto it, bringing in a slightly
different lens.
You know, we don't want the dogto be trained.
We want to understand the dog.
We want to bring him in so hecan feel safe, so he can have
some choice.
We don't want him to look at meand go, yeah, but if I do that,
(40:44):
will I get the treat?
Will I get the reward?
What do you want next?
What do you want next?
We want him to come in and go,oh, yeah, I know this place.
I know this girl, Leah.
I've seen her before.
I'm going to go and say helloto her.
You know, I'm comfortable here.
This is cool.
We get connection here.
That's what we want.
for humans, dogs on a bigscale.
(41:05):
You know, it's on offer.
It's amazing.
Leah (41:10):
Yeah, you just hit on like all the main points that I have
on my little list here.
So I want to just kind ofintuitively feel through it.
I mean, all that is incredibleto me.
I'm going in this directionwith my clients who have dogs
where...
I'm asking them to do breathwork and see how it affects the
(41:34):
dogs, even taking three deepbreaths, or if you want to get
technical, a physiological sigh,and then seeing what effect
that has not only on theiremotional state, but almost
immediately, like you said, itgets mirrored in the dog.
I actually want to put on aworkshop where, what are those
(41:58):
little It's like a pulse ox thatyou put on your finger and it
reads your heart rate and youroxygen level.
So I would love to do like alittle mini workshop where
people are actually wearingthose and they can correlate and
understand how making a choiceto take a deep breath is having
(42:25):
a physiological and emotionalimpact.
And then I don't think we wantto hook the dogs up to a machine
to read their state, but justbeing able to look at the
reflection in the dogs.
Yeah, and you keep talkingabout safety, that the dog has
(42:45):
to feel safe.
And I don't want to get too inthe weeds with polyvagal theory,
but understanding neuroception,that the priority of the
nervous system is to detect cuesof danger and cues of safety
and react accordingly, and howobserving neuroception in the
dog is such a powerful way tounderstand that the dog's
(43:13):
behavior is really a product oftheir nervous system and
whatever state they're in, ifit's fight, flight, freeze, or
fawn.
And so you take theintentionality out of that by
understanding, oh, the dog isreading the room as either safe
or not safe, and they kind ofdon't have a choice necessarily
(43:39):
It's all internally beingdecided for them.
And a lot of time, I think weare operating like that as well.
But we get these brief momentswhere it's like, oh, wait, I can
decide to take a deep breathright now.
But a lot of the time, it's thesame for us.
We have programs that we'rerunning on based on What we
(44:02):
learned was safe or what welearned was dangerous.
As we were growing up aschildren, then we see those cues
in the world and we may not betotally in control of our
reaction based on what's goingon.
So that's really awesome thatyou're able to show that to
people.
Grant (44:22):
Yeah, and a lot of the time...
When you said a lot of the timeit's the same for people, it's
the same.
So when we learn this aboutdogs, when we talk about
neuroception, I've not oftenused the word neuroception with
young people, but the concept isexactly what we explore.
And so learning about theseconcepts in regard to Sunny is
(44:46):
learning about them, period.
So they apply across the board.
They apply to humans.
And by the way, we used to haveyoung people come out and...
and take Sonny's heart rate.
You know, we'd do it, we woulddo it by feel.
Every now and then we'd do itwith a stethoscope.
He was up for it.
You know, this was his calling.
(45:07):
You know, this is what this dogloved to do and he did it
really well.
You know, he's got a presence.
He's got something specialabout him, but we would take his
heart rate and we'd feel wherehis heart was.
We would count.
his heart rate, we would gethuman heart rate skyrocket
(45:27):
really quick and we would dobreathing exercises that brought
it down.
We would talk about what wouldhis heart rate need to be, what
would it get to, what would thepoint be where we would declare
him unable to focus, unable tohear, unable to learn, unable to
respond to me if I was usinghis name and saying, Sonny, you
need to come over here, it'ssafer over here.
(45:49):
we work out that there washeart rates and zones that we
could then correlate directly tohuman zones.
And we would have 10-year-oldstudents standing at the door of
the classroom, looking at theirwatch, checking their pulse
after these workshops andsaying, I'll be in in about 40
seconds.
I'm still on 115 and they knewthey needed to be between 60 and
(46:12):
80 to come back into the roombecause that enabled them to be
in an environment that felt safefor everyone and in an
environment where they couldengage in dialogue and listen
and focus and be on task.
So they'd call it ready tolearn.
I'll be ready to learn in 40seconds.
And this all came from doing itwith Sunny, you know, and
saying, What's the cap?
What does his heart rate getto?
(46:33):
And then he's outside of histhreshold of being ready to
learn or ready to focus orengage.
And what's too low for Sonny?
What would be unhealthy for himto be?
And then we talk about, well,if he was just laying around all
day, you know, probably nothealthy for him.
His muscles will become weak.
He'll be potentially not activein the brain.
(46:55):
And so we explore all of theseconcepts in relation to a dog
first and they're very easy toembed in the human context.
The beauty of this is, youknow, when you talk about
mirror, these concepts applyacross the board.
You know, it's just such afantastic opportunity through
connection with a dog to engagein learning this and the
(47:17):
breathwork that you're thinkingabout with your workshops and
the breathwork that you do, youknow, in whatever way that you
do it.
It's just such a...
Such a reliable, powerfulvisual for people to see this
reflected by their dog and by abeing that they know they can
rely on, that they know wellenough to see and to say, this
(47:39):
is real.
Dogs don't fake this.
So really amazing opportunity.
I just keep coming back tothinking, I'm just so grateful
that to dogs and so grateful foran opportunity to be in this
realm where there's people,there's like-minded people like
you, you know, there's peopleacross this planet who are, you
(48:00):
know, growing in awarenessrapidly around how this is
evolving and what it can be.
And dogs are loving it too.
You know, they're stepping upto the plate when, when a
climate is set right for a dogin a place like a school, you,
you, can see it in their walkyou know they walk with
confidence they walk knowingthey're safe they walk knowing
(48:23):
that they're valued you knowthey they kind of prance around
like they're pretty special youknow um we hear people say that
that he walks around like he's arock star in this place and so
he should because he kind of isyou know he's different to us
all he's bringing he isindividually as one being
(48:44):
bringing thousands of smiles andbright moments and he's walking
around like he knows he's doingit you know so that's the
difference between a dog that'sfocused on what we want from it
you know what is this outcomethat's expected and and what
have you been trained to do thedifference is huge when you see
(49:05):
a dog that has been brought inwith authentic opportunities to
connect and for it to bemutually, reciprocally offered
as an opportunity that he cantake or leave.
So yeah, every time you speak,it makes so much come to mind
about there's just so much inthis.
(49:26):
It's so big and so beautifuland the opportunities are...
just beginning to go to whatfeels to me like a real new
level between dogs and humans.
And I absolutely love it.
I
Leah (49:41):
just kind of got the feeling like this might actually
be a good place to start towrap up, even though I know that
you and I could go off on somany different tangents.
And I think this was like areally good introduction to what
you're doing with the DogsConnect organization and then,
(50:05):
you know, giving people some ofthese concepts without getting,
again, without getting too inthe weeds on polyvagal theory.
So I just really appreciatethis instant kind of rapport
that we had because we have someof the same ideas and
(50:29):
passionate about some of thesame things around how people
are interacting and learningfrom dogs and how, like you
said, really quickly ourunderstanding of dogs is
evolving.
And so, yeah, if there'sanything else you want to, and
don't feel like we have to wrapup quickly, but if there's
(50:52):
anything else specifically aboutyour program that you want to
share, like if there was a, youknow, something that we didn't
touch on that you thought wasimportant?
I
Grant (51:03):
don't have anything about our program, our organization
that I really want to share orpush or anything.
I would just urge people tofeel that it's evolving and
continue to pay more attentionto the animals that are around
you.
In particular, if you've got adog in your life, watch more
closely and let it evolve.
(51:23):
It's happening and feel it.
is what I would love morepeople to do.
And if that's happening withone or two people as a result of
this conversation, then that'sawesome.
Leah (51:36):
Yeah, I totally agree.
So if people are curious tolearn more, can they get in
touch with you through thewebsite or how would you like to
connect with people?
Grant (51:47):
Website is the easiest.
There's website contact.
There's email on there.
Basically, we'll talk to anyonewho's interested in learning
more.
We're really passionate aboutit.
The Dogs Connect team loveswhat they do.
So go to the website.
It's just Dogs Connect.
And we'll be here.
(52:09):
We'll be here forever,hopefully.
We love it.
Leah (52:13):
Okay, cool.
And then if anyone's interestedin the virtual course that's on
the Polyvagal Institute, that'show I found you.
But I will post all the linksto your website, your social
channels.
And yeah, I'm so grateful thatwe got to have this conversation
(52:36):
and that we're helping movethings forward together.
in that really excitingevolution that's happening in
the relationship between humansand dogs.
So thank you so much.
Grant (52:52):
Thank you, Leah.
It's a pleasure.
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