November 12, 2024 • 30 mins
Have you ever wondered if the stories of UFOs could be tied to ancient biblical texts? Join me and my long-time friend Daniel Van Cleave as we navigate our shared histories and explore our unique upbringings, deeply rooted in our fathers' ministry work. This episode of the Sonic Hitchhiker Podcast takes a heartfelt look at Daniel's journey into and out of ministry, as he reveals the twists and turns of faith and personal revelation that have shaped his life. Our candid conversation uncovers the profound impact of growing up in religious families, and how those experiences have evolved into a respect for diverse spiritual perspectives.
Shifting gears, we dive into the mysterious world of UFOs and their potential biblical connections, offering a thought-provoking examination of unidentified flying objects through the lens of scripture. From the Leviathan to angelic encounters, we discuss the possibility that what were once considered divine phenomena might now be viewed as extraterrestrial. Daniel and I share personal anecdotes that defy simple explanation, like a surreal encounter with a mysterious light in Georgia, emphasizing the enigmatic nature of supernatural experiences. Our exploration reflects on how scripture can both illuminate and mystify these phenomena, leaving us with more questions than answers.
As we wrap up, the conversation turns to the power of belief and how it influences our interpretation of both supernatural events and religious teachings. We consider how faith, whether in the resurrection or quantum physics, demands a leap of conviction. Daniel and I highlight the enduring teachings of Jesus, particularly the commandment to love, amidst discussions of dark forces and the manipulation of sacred texts. By examining personal experiences and biblical prophecy, we invite listeners to ponder the remarkable odds of divine truth in their lives. Through it all, our preference for the teachings of the New Testament emerges, as we seek to unravel the complexities of faith and the unexplained.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Sonic Hitchhiker Podcast dedicated to
all things strange, mysteriousand just plain out of the
ordinary.
Your guide on this audioodyssey is Billy Shadow.
Billy has led a life full ofexperiences that have put him on
his current path, from hishumble beginnings in the ghettos
of southwest Georgia to theGreat Plains of Oklahoma.
(00:21):
Billy has led a life full ofexperiences.
As a youth, billy traveled withhis family on a bus while his
father preached in churchesacross the country.
As a young man, billy spenttime in the military, became an
entrepreneur, met and workedwith multiple celebrities,
became a singer-songwriter.
Billy's travels and experienceshave led him to witness
(00:41):
exorcisms, cult mind controlevents, ghosts and other
supernatural phenomena.
It is because of his interestin these experiences that this
podcast was created.
And now your host, billy Shadow.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Welcome my friends again to the podcast.
Today we have a very specialguest, daniel Van Cleave.
Daniel and I actually go back aways.
We grew up together, seventiesTo the seventies, the seventies.
We go back quite a ways.
We may not sound it, but we'reancient.
(01:16):
But Daniel's a friend of mine.
But I'm going to let Danieltalk about himself for just a
minute to give you an idea.
He is a minister of sorts.
So let me let Daniel Van Cleavetell you about himself for just
a minute and then we'll get tothe topics that I want to talk
about today.
Go ahead, daniel.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Yeah, so thanks for having me on.
I hope it's helpful, we'll see.
I grew up in and around thechurch by vocational dad who
pastored a variety of differentchurches across the nation.
One of our commonalities isthat both our dads pastored in
(01:58):
Oklahoma but primarily SouthGeorgia had 17 addresses by the
age of 14.
I don't recommend that parents,I know about that.
If your children have somestability, that's not a good
idea.
But we did what we had to do,wanted nothing to do with the
church, burned as a teenagerpretty hard at a church that I
(02:24):
considered kind of turnedcultish and we escaped that and
we, you know.
So I didn't want anything to dowith the church but felt
increased call to ministry.
Pastored for 17 years or so andjust recently, the first of
(02:45):
this year, I've taken a breakfrom full-time pastoring.
I work with Pirose PrisonMinistry and have just slowly
started doing a little bit ofsaying yes to a few speaking
engagements.
But I'm doing a little bit ofsaying yes to a few speaking
(03:06):
engagements, but for the mostpart right now I'm working back
in the family business inconstruction and I'm married for
28 years Two weeks ago to thesame woman.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
That's awesome, she's going to keep me.
That's awesome.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
She tells me it's been the best five years of her
life is what I hear.
So I think she's going to keepme, but I have three wonderful
children, billy, which blows mymind to say 24, 21, and 18 are
(03:43):
not children.
I'm not a grandpa yet, so I'mnot there, I'm not your level,
but could be.
So we're thankful and blessed,and so that's a little bit about
me.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Yeah, you and I, we do have commonalities.
I too know what it's like toyou know, you know my story, and
we as a family, we traveled thecountry in a bus where my dad
was a I don't.
I don't, you don't, you don'treally, you wouldn't really call
that a missionary.
I'm not sure what, I'm not surewhat it was.
(04:18):
It was like the Partridgefamily, except your dad is a
preacher, and we even had tosing songs at churches for money
.
And you have to beg for money.
You know, and it's you, live inif they, if you get a chance, I
mean, you live where you could.
You, that bus sometimes wasparked in a field behind
someone's church, behindsomeone's house.
(04:39):
We took showers in creeks.
Uh, we, you know it's, it's it.
It wasn't an easy life.
Uh, all the way around.
And I too know about somecultish, cultish.
I probably have been a lotfurther down that track than you
have.
And, um, no, I don't recommendany of that.
But what I will say, what Iwill say, it is, it is and we're
(05:01):
going to get into some of thisit is people's lives.
When you're raised in a religion, that is, it becomes your
(05:34):
nature to just believe whatyou're told and I'm not saying
it's a bad thing I have come torealize as an adult to be
thankful for everything.
I don't look back at my life.
I used to.
I used to be depressed about alot of things.
Now I look back and say youknow, I am blessed to have gone
(05:54):
through a bunch of things thatnot many people go through,
because it gives you a differentperspective on life.
And now, in growing up alsoworking hard as it, from a
nine-year-old working my buttoff from a nine-year-old to my
life for now is easy, easy.
People tell me their problems.
(06:15):
I'm like it's not that hard.
Life for me now is great.
But also as an adult, I studiedthe Bible for myself because
being and I don't want to saythis in a bad way I love my
parents.
They also, they did what theythought they had to do.
I love them.
I don't.
I don't have any animositytoward them at all but, I will
(06:36):
say this I I just my perspectiveon on life is so much different
as an adult because I can lookat something like the Bible and
see it in a totally differentway than I did growing up, and I
have so much more respect forother religions because they
(06:56):
grow up in their religions justlike we grew up in ours.
That's all they know, and so Idon't really hold any animosity
toward any other religion aswell.
I don't.
But one thing that I havealways been interested in, which
is why this podcast was created, as I, as is stated in the the
(07:17):
intro, I I have always beenfascinated with things that I
that is hard to understand or Ijust can't explain, because
there are real phenomena outthere that we don't explain,
that we can't explain, and theBible is full of it.
And people will read the Bibleand just want to get the what
(07:39):
they call the quote religiousaspect out of it, when there is
so much more from creation torevelation, from visions burning
bushes, the flood of Genesis,ezekiel talking about chariots
of fire, which is what I want toget to first.
(08:01):
There are many accounts of whatthey call now.
They used to call them UFOs, Ithink now they've gotten more
sophisticated.
They call them unidentifiedaerial phenomena.
I don't know, I like the oldone and I don't say this as a
slight against the Bible.
As a matter of fact, I say youshould, we should, if we are
(08:22):
interested in a religion that weare a part of and I am a
Christian by faith, but I don't.
I never force it on anyone, butI'm happy to talk to people
about it, but I have a differentperspective on it than most
people do.
I'm not like the Bible-thumpingholy roller.
You got to do it or elseBecause I grew up that way, and
that's no way to get people tocome around to a way of thinking
(08:46):
.
People are people and theirlives may not be susceptible to
what you're trying to teach them.
So you've got to let them learnfor themselves.
But to get off of the reallyserious stuff, I'm going to get
right to it as a minister, assomeone who has studied the
(09:06):
Bible and as someone who hasbeen in similar experiences like
I have throughout your lifereligiously.
What do you think about UFOs?
Because I am fascinated by it.
Ufos go back thousands, if notmillions of years to cave in
Mesopotamia, where in ancientEgypt, where they show flying
(09:28):
machines on fire going abovepeople's heads, like people
following them.
The Bible talks about thechildren of Israel being led by
an object in the sky by day anda pillar of fire by night.
You have in Ezekiel.
It talks about chariots withblinking fire, what we would
(09:51):
call blinking lights.
They call blinking fire.
So, on a bit of a fun topic,but yet a biblical topic as well
.
As a minister, what do youthink about UFOs?
I'm going to call them UFOs.
I like that better.
What do you think about thatand how it relates to the Bible
Good or bad too.
What do you think about it?
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Well, I think, defining the terms.
I apologize, I need to figureout how to mute this.
If I don't mute this, my phoneis connected to my laptop.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
You're fine.
You're fine.
My phone I had to put mine onthere, but you're fine, don't
worry about it.
By the way, for those listening, this is a form of Skype, I
think, so there may be a fewnoise discrepancies, but it's
okay, we're live, so it's fine.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
So my first thoughts define the terms Well.
Ufo is an unidentified flyingobject.
I was at an air show last weekwhere there were jets flying
around that were unidentifieduntil they came into view All of
a sudden.
I'm like was that a blue angel,or is that the Thunderbird?
(11:02):
Yeah, I do think there are waysto explain away certain things,
like the cave paintings.
Maybe that was a dragon.
I do believe there wereLeviathan, as mentioned in
Scripture.
Yes, I believe there wereperhaps larger, much larger
(11:25):
beings, like whales.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Job, also in the book of Job, talks about an animal
that could drink the rivers dry.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Dinosaurs maybe, but do I think there's
extraterrestrial beings fromanother planet?
Maybe beings from anotherplanet, maybe?
I don't think that.
You know, I'm a realist, sowhen it comes to a lot of that,
I'm like, well, where's the body?
You know all these years oftechnology and where's the body?
(11:59):
I don't think anyone's everproduced a body.
I think you explain a lot ofthe Area 51.
Your grandfather worked at Area51, and your grandfather, your
uncle, worked at Area 51 andtold me in his latter days of
(12:23):
his life, I was fascinated withJets as a, you know, as a 16, 17
, 18, 16, 17 year old, and I was, you know, talking to him about
.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Which uncle?
Because I have quite a few.
Which one are you talking about?
Speaker 3 (12:38):
I'm Fred Johnson.
Oh, yeah, yeah, gotcha.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah, he was in the Air.
Force.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he did, yeah,yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
And so he, you know, when I was talking to him about
the Hawker Harrier and I waslike man, that's really cool,
this new jet that will justraise up and it'll take off, and
he's like that stuff.
We had that stuff in the 50sand 60s.
(13:07):
It's like what we're just nowhearing about it in the late 80s
, and so I think there's a lotof that stuff out there that we
don't know about.
Technology out there.
I mean, you have drones flyingall over the place July the 4th.
I'm watching fireworks and Ilook up and I was like, oh,
there's a linked chain of lights.
What is that?
(13:28):
It's a UFO.
And somebody in the group waslike, oh, that's Elon Musk.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
That's his.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Starlink strand of satellites.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
And there are just thousands of satellites out
there.
I don't know that we have anyproof that they're
extraterrestrial or aliens orbeings from other planets or
whatever you want to call them.
I do know that there are.
According to Scripture, whichis the barometer for me, we know
(14:03):
that Satan was banished fromheaven, along with a third of
the angels that are against God,and so I know there's an
angelic host.
Many times in Scripture you seemention of beings.
I have encountered both sides.
(14:24):
I think there are two sides.
I think there's a side, underthe influence of Satan, that are
manipulated by his commands,directly reporting to him as
their commander-in-chief.
There's a host as well that aredirectly reporting to Yahweh,
(14:47):
to Jehovah, to Jesus, as hismessengers, and we speak.
Throughout Scripture we see aplethora of examples of how we
can entertain angels and noteven be aware of it, and I've
experienced both sides.
I've entertained angels, Iexperienced both sides.
I've entertained angels, I'veseen them, I've met them, um,
but I've also, um, staredprobably not stared Satan in the
(15:09):
face.
One of my friends said um,don't kid yourself, you're not
that important.
Satan doesn't know Um and he'slike, but his minions do, his,
his demons do, and they, theyhate, they hate, they hate, they
hate us.
They.
They want to destroy umchristianity.
They always have wanted todestroy anything that has to do
(15:30):
with christ but um but yeahthat's um sort of my um 30 000
foot foot view of of of thatwell, a couple of things that
you said there that I want tohit on.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
And yes, I also have heard similar stories from Uncle
about some phenomena.
I've heard a couple of storiesI heard even one from my father,
which I talked about, on anepisode coming up that we've
already recorded, where my dadactually was traveling with
another preacher down an oldroad I think it was in Georgia,
(16:06):
a country road and a lightappeared out of the sky and got
bigger and bigger and justlanded in the road to the point
to where it scared them so muchthey turned around and went back
the other way because they didnot know what it was or how to
explain it, and I don't knowwhat that was.
And you say somethingfascinating to me when you say
(16:27):
we have no body.
We have, you know, even thoughthey say we have these things.
But I've thought that in thepast too.
But here's another thing youknow, our faith alone is a lot
of what we believe in there's no, when I and don't get me wrong,
it's a faith thing which, evenif you're, by the way, even if
(16:48):
you are someone who doesn't haveany religious ties, but you
believe in the Big Bang Theory,that takes to me just as much
faith to believe as the virginbirth, for instance, because you
don't really have any physicalproof, it's just something you
choose to believe.
As the virgin birth, forinstance, because you don't
really have any physical proof,it's just something you choose
to believe.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
I've said it yesterday, I think it takes more
faith to be an atheist, ittakes more faith to believe in
some of those things andprinciples than it does to
believe in Christ, because myfaith is not rooted in some you
know thought or some system ofsequence of you know mind farts,
(17:33):
if you will.
My faith is rooted and groundedin a knowledge of God, and so
my faith is informed by myknowledge of God.
So I have irrefutable proofthat God is who he says he is,
irrefutable proof that Jesus isGod and from the greatest
miracle that ever took place wasthe resurrection, the empty
(17:55):
tomb, documented by thousands ofpeople, hundreds, five hundreds
or so known witnesses of theempty tomb.
And he did everything else hesaid he was going to do.
And so all of that culminationin the metanarrative scripture
from Genesis 1-1, which isarguably the most disputed and
(18:22):
critical verse in the Bible.
In the beginning, god createdFrom Creator God all the way
through Jesus in the empty tomb.
We have all this proof and myfaith is rooted in that proof.
That he is who he said he was isirrefutable to me and it shapes
(18:43):
my faith.
My faith shapes my actions.
My beliefs shape what I do.
I believe in gravity, why, likeme and you, we jumped off the
bridge.
We've thrown the rocks off ofhigh buildings before and they
(19:07):
go smack at the bottom.
I believe gravity exists, sotherefore it shapes what I jump
off of.
You know, I'm 48 years old andI jumped off of a six-foot.
I tried to do a backflip.
It turned into a back buster.
Um off a pontoon boat lastweekend, um, and, and at six
(19:30):
foot, the gravity that took me.
I knew it was going to be asmack If I landed wrong.
It's going to burn a little bit, much less 60 feet, but because
I know the laws and theelements of what gravity does,
therefore I'm not going to gojump off that building.
And so my experience of Christ.
(19:54):
I think the greatest evidence isan empty tomb, but there are
layers and layers and layers ofevidences from that and before
that typology, leading to all ofthese, um, all of these
prophecies that said, hey, thisis going to happen.
You mentioned ezekiel, this isgoing to happen.
(20:15):
And 700 years later, whathappens?
That very thing happens.
I mean that odds of thathappening is so many.
Somebody said there's 245prophecies that Christ fulfilled
alone and the odds of doingthat is like filling a 40-foot
swimming pool or maybe it's a40,000-gallon swimming pool with
(20:39):
scrabble pieces and pulling outrandomly, blindfolded, reaching
into that pool of scrabblepieces and pulling out all these
letters and forming the longestEnglish word blindfolded.
That's the odds of fulfillingthe prophecies that Jesus
fulfilled, and so that shapes myfaith.
I think you mentioned religionearlier, billy, my distaste for
(21:08):
a lot of what the church isdoing today is that religion is
man-made principles.
For the most part, it's a setof rules Take your hat off when
you walk in the church, foldyour hands and close your eyes
when you pray.
You and I were cram-fit all ofthat.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
And if we didn't?
Speaker 3 (21:27):
do it.
We weren't told twice.
You and I were cram-fit all ofthat and if we didn't do it we
weren't told twice.
We feared our dads as much aswe did, or more than we feared
God.
All of those man-madeprinciples, those man-made rules
.
A lot of it leads to bondage.
Some of it's in place to guideand protect us.
(21:49):
But when I draw the line in thesand I go back to Jesus.
What did Jesus say?
Jesus said a new commandment Igive to you that you love one
another.
I don't think he was abolishingthe Ten Commandments.
I think the greatestcommandment ever written.
What he said?
A new commandment I've given toyou that you love one another.
(22:09):
He mentioned the greatcommandment he said the second's
likened to it love yourneighbor as yourself.
So I think fear God is acritical command that we have to
adhere to.
But it's not fear as in.
I'm not scared of God.
My fear of Him is reverence andknowing that the whole of who
(22:33):
he is is.
You know from 48 years ofexperience.
I also wanted to echo yourexperience and you mentioned you
know you wouldn't take anythingback and I get that.
You didn't say it exactly likethat.
I think you were alluding.
You appreciate even the sorrowsthat we went through.
Your mother made me foldclothes, for it seemed like a
(22:59):
whole half a day when I couldhave been playing with tractors
with you and your brother in theyard and I was folding, because
you remember, when she wasready to fold them clothes and
she's doing that laundry, it waseverybody chipped in.
So that's some of my firstmemories of your mom, back in
like 78 um, folding clothes.
(23:19):
I hated it, but to this day Iwas folding clothes on Friday or
Thursday night.
To this day I'm folding a club.
I'm folding the sleeves likeyour mom taught me, I mean from
all that time later.
And so life shapes us.
Even though we may not like it,it's preparing us for something
beautiful.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah.
I believe that Well, yeah, Iappreciate all of that, what you
say, because I can definitelyrelate.
And when it comes to one thingI appreciate about the life I've
lived, and I'm sure you do, isthe fact that, yeah, I too, I'm
confident that I can say I haveseen I guess you could call it
(24:06):
dark forces, you could call itSatan demons I have witnessed in
my life.
I've witnessed so-calledexorcisms.
I've witnessed ultimate mindcontrol.
When I say ultimate mindcontrol, I mean to the point to
where you would kill.
You would literally kill, ifthe word was told, if the word
(24:28):
came down the pike, that that'swhat you needed to do.
If the word was told, if theword came down the pike, that
that's what you needed to do.
So I understand the power ofthe mind and how people can
control it.
There's a movie called the Bookof Eli with and we're maybe
getting off topic, but that'sokay I think people will find
this interesting that have neverexperienced it.
But there is a movie called theBook of Eli with Denzel
(24:50):
Washington great movie.
Gary Oldman is the bad guy init and Gary, it's a
post-apocalyptic movie where allthe Bibles in the world have
been burned and they no longerexist.
But there is one that exists.
Denzel Washington is in controlof it and he has divine
protection.
He's going through this newworld with this Bible, keeping
(25:13):
it safe, and Gary Oldman ishaving trouble controlling his
minions and says, man, if we canjust get that Bible, we can
control everyone, which is afascinating statement, because
it's true, even though the Bibleis good for a lot of people,
the Bible can also bemanipulated.
Not because the Bible itselfmay be, it of people.
(25:33):
The Bible can also bemanipulated, not because the
Bible itself may be.
It's not something that it cando alone, but you can use people
, use that all the time formanipulation.
I have also witnessed somesupernatural stuff in my life
and to me, the very idea of God,the very idea of angels, the
very idea of demons,resurrection, all of those
(25:54):
things we see in the Bible, theparting of the Red Sea,
premonitions.
At one point in the OldTestament an animal is suddenly
given the gift of voice and cantalk, and can talk to his
handler and give him a warningfrom God.
And if you're not familiar withthe Bible, I apologize if
(26:15):
you're listening to this andyou're like, what are they
talking about?
But if you are familiar with itand then maybe you'll
appreciate this.
So the Bible itself is full ofwhat I would call supernatural
phenomena.
It just is.
There is not a lot ofexplanations for things in the
Bible.
You just either believe it andaccept it as what it is, or you
(26:36):
don't.
And that's true with everyreligion.
There are religions before theBible was written that have
similar stories, so people canmake of that what they will.
The reason I decided to staywith Christianity, for example,
had a lot to do with the NewTestament, had a lot to do with
the teachings of Jesus.
We no longer stone our childrenfor lying like they did in the
(27:00):
Old Testament.
God himself would command.
We talk about abortion andthese are getting way off topic.
We talk about abortion, but yetGod in the Old Testament would
say when you go into an intimateterritory, you kill everyone,
babies, pets.
So there is, there is the.
There.
There are so much in the.
There is so much in the Biblethat fascinates me.
(27:22):
I wouldn't even saycontradictory, I would just say
it's different times.
And Jesus comes along and sayswell, you know what?
Everything that was in the OldTestament, all the laws,
everything that was put in place, why don't we just put it this
way Do unto others what youwould have them do unto you?
Let's simplify it.
(27:44):
But even with Jesus, he did somany supernatural things.
There were so many supernaturalevents Hard to explain.
You say you choose to believe,and that's true.
You choose to believe what youbelieve because a lot of it our
minds just can't wrap our headaround it.
We don't see a lot of thosethings anymore that you see in
(28:09):
the Bible Miracles like they hadthen, these supernatural
phenomena that we see throughoutthe scriptures which, again,
you and I could talk about thisfor hours and hours and still
have so much more to talk about.
When it comes to the Bibleitself and it's fascinating to
(28:31):
me, but the Bible does reference, like you say, ufos, but how
you see it is how you see it andsomeone else may see it
differently I myself havewondered God is a spirit, and I
do believe God is a spiritualbeing and being.
(28:56):
That we just can't, and theBible does say that no one's
ever met God face to face, andwhat I mean by that is if he's a
spiritual person, we in thesefleshly bodies cannot.
We cannot see him in his form.
That's what I take from it.
And what is that form?
It's a spiritual form, and ifhe is a spiritual being, that
(29:20):
means inside of us is aspiritual being.
That also means that there aregood and evil spiritual beings
out there.
Some people call them demons.
There are good and evilspiritual beings out there.
Some people call them demons.
Join us for the next podcastepisode where we will continue
our discussion with Daniel,because this one went longer
than expected, but that's a goodthing, because I was hoping it
(29:40):
would.
That way, we can put this intotwo different episodes for you
guys, and I hope you'll reallylearn something.
And I hope you'll find thisconversation with Daniel Van
Cleve very fascinating, as I did.
And, with that being said, Iwill see you next time on the
Sonic Hitchhiker podcast that'lldo it for another edition of
(30:02):
the show.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Join Billy Shadow next week for another all-new
Sonic Hitchhiker podcast.
Thanks for checking out theSonic Hitchhiker podcast.
Thanks for checking out theSonic Hitchhiker podcast.
Follow us on Instagram at SonicHitchhiker podcast and get new
episodes Wednesdays, whereveryou get your podcasts.
Welcome to the Sonic Hitchhiker Podcast dedicated to
all things strange, mysteriousand just plain out of the
ordinary.
Your guide on this audioodyssey is Billy Shadow.
Billy has led a life full ofexperiences that have put him on
his current path, from hishumble beginnings in the ghettos
of southwest Georgia to theGreat Plains of Oklahoma.
(00:21):
Billy has led a life full ofexperiences.
As a youth, billy traveled withhis family on a bus while his
father preached in churchesacross the country.
As a young man, billy spenttime in the military, became an
entrepreneur, met and workedwith multiple celebrities,
became a singer-songwriter.
Billy's travels and experienceshave led him to witness
(00:41):
exorcisms, cult mind controlevents, ghosts and other
supernatural phenomena.
It is because of his interestin these experiences that this
podcast was created.
And now your host, billy Shadow.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Welcome my friends again to the podcast.
Today we have a very specialguest, daniel Van Cleave.
Daniel and I actually go back aways.
We grew up together, seventiesTo the seventies, the seventies.
We go back quite a ways.
We may not sound it, but we'reancient.
(01:16):
But Daniel's a friend of mine.
But I'm going to let Danieltalk about himself for just a
minute to give you an idea.
He is a minister of sorts.
So let me let Daniel Van Cleavetell you about himself for just
a minute and then we'll get tothe topics that I want to talk
about today.
Go ahead, daniel.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Yeah, so thanks for having me on.
I hope it's helpful, we'll see.
I grew up in and around thechurch by vocational dad who
pastored a variety of differentchurches across the nation.
One of our commonalities isthat both our dads pastored in
(01:58):
Oklahoma but primarily SouthGeorgia had 17 addresses by the
age of 14.
I don't recommend that parents,I know about that.
If your children have somestability, that's not a good
idea.
But we did what we had to do,wanted nothing to do with the
church, burned as a teenagerpretty hard at a church that I
(02:24):
considered kind of turnedcultish and we escaped that and
we, you know.
So I didn't want anything to dowith the church but felt
increased call to ministry.
Pastored for 17 years or so andjust recently, the first of
(02:45):
this year, I've taken a breakfrom full-time pastoring.
I work with Pirose PrisonMinistry and have just slowly
started doing a little bit ofsaying yes to a few speaking
engagements.
But I'm doing a little bit ofsaying yes to a few speaking
(03:06):
engagements, but for the mostpart right now I'm working back
in the family business inconstruction and I'm married for
28 years Two weeks ago to thesame woman.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
That's awesome, she's going to keep me.
That's awesome.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
She tells me it's been the best five years of her
life is what I hear.
So I think she's going to keepme, but I have three wonderful
children, billy, which blows mymind to say 24, 21, and 18 are
(03:43):
not children.
I'm not a grandpa yet, so I'mnot there, I'm not your level,
but could be.
So we're thankful and blessed,and so that's a little bit about
me.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Yeah, you and I, we do have commonalities.
I too know what it's like toyou know, you know my story, and
we as a family, we traveled thecountry in a bus where my dad
was a I don't.
I don't, you don't, you don'treally, you wouldn't really call
that a missionary.
I'm not sure what, I'm not surewhat it was.
(04:18):
It was like the Partridgefamily, except your dad is a
preacher, and we even had tosing songs at churches for money
.
And you have to beg for money.
You know, and it's you, live inif they, if you get a chance, I
mean, you live where you could.
You, that bus sometimes wasparked in a field behind
someone's church, behindsomeone's house.
(04:39):
We took showers in creeks.
Uh, we, you know it's, it's it.
It wasn't an easy life.
Uh, all the way around.
And I too know about somecultish, cultish.
I probably have been a lotfurther down that track than you
have.
And, um, no, I don't recommendany of that.
But what I will say, what Iwill say, it is, it is and we're
(05:01):
going to get into some of thisit is people's lives.
When you're raised in a religion, that is, it becomes your
(05:34):
nature to just believe whatyou're told and I'm not saying
it's a bad thing I have come torealize as an adult to be
thankful for everything.
I don't look back at my life.
I used to.
I used to be depressed about alot of things.
Now I look back and say youknow, I am blessed to have gone
(05:54):
through a bunch of things thatnot many people go through,
because it gives you a differentperspective on life.
And now, in growing up alsoworking hard as it, from a
nine-year-old working my buttoff from a nine-year-old to my
life for now is easy, easy.
People tell me their problems.
(06:15):
I'm like it's not that hard.
Life for me now is great.
But also as an adult, I studiedthe Bible for myself because
being and I don't want to saythis in a bad way I love my
parents.
They also, they did what theythought they had to do.
I love them.
I don't.
I don't have any animositytoward them at all but, I will
(06:36):
say this I I just my perspectiveon on life is so much different
as an adult because I can lookat something like the Bible and
see it in a totally differentway than I did growing up, and I
have so much more respect forother religions because they
(06:56):
grow up in their religions justlike we grew up in ours.
That's all they know, and so Idon't really hold any animosity
toward any other religion aswell.
I don't.
But one thing that I havealways been interested in, which
is why this podcast was created, as I, as is stated in the the
(07:17):
intro, I I have always beenfascinated with things that I
that is hard to understand or Ijust can't explain, because
there are real phenomena outthere that we don't explain,
that we can't explain, and theBible is full of it.
And people will read the Bibleand just want to get the what
(07:39):
they call the quote religiousaspect out of it, when there is
so much more from creation torevelation, from visions burning
bushes, the flood of Genesis,ezekiel talking about chariots
of fire, which is what I want toget to first.
(08:01):
There are many accounts of whatthey call now.
They used to call them UFOs, Ithink now they've gotten more
sophisticated.
They call them unidentifiedaerial phenomena.
I don't know, I like the oldone and I don't say this as a
slight against the Bible.
As a matter of fact, I say youshould, we should, if we are
(08:22):
interested in a religion that weare a part of and I am a
Christian by faith, but I don't.
I never force it on anyone, butI'm happy to talk to people
about it, but I have a differentperspective on it than most
people do.
I'm not like the Bible-thumpingholy roller.
You got to do it or elseBecause I grew up that way, and
that's no way to get people tocome around to a way of thinking
(08:46):
.
People are people and theirlives may not be susceptible to
what you're trying to teach them.
So you've got to let them learnfor themselves.
But to get off of the reallyserious stuff, I'm going to get
right to it as a minister, assomeone who has studied the
(09:06):
Bible and as someone who hasbeen in similar experiences like
I have throughout your lifereligiously.
What do you think about UFOs?
Because I am fascinated by it.
Ufos go back thousands, if notmillions of years to cave in
Mesopotamia, where in ancientEgypt, where they show flying
(09:28):
machines on fire going abovepeople's heads, like people
following them.
The Bible talks about thechildren of Israel being led by
an object in the sky by day anda pillar of fire by night.
You have in Ezekiel.
It talks about chariots withblinking fire, what we would
(09:51):
call blinking lights.
They call blinking fire.
So, on a bit of a fun topic,but yet a biblical topic as well
.
As a minister, what do youthink about UFOs?
I'm going to call them UFOs.
I like that better.
What do you think about thatand how it relates to the Bible
Good or bad too.
What do you think about it?
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Well, I think, defining the terms.
I apologize, I need to figureout how to mute this.
If I don't mute this, my phoneis connected to my laptop.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
You're fine.
You're fine.
My phone I had to put mine onthere, but you're fine, don't
worry about it.
By the way, for those listening, this is a form of Skype, I
think, so there may be a fewnoise discrepancies, but it's
okay, we're live, so it's fine.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
So my first thoughts define the terms Well.
Ufo is an unidentified flyingobject.
I was at an air show last weekwhere there were jets flying
around that were unidentifieduntil they came into view All of
a sudden.
I'm like was that a blue angel,or is that the Thunderbird?
(11:02):
Yeah, I do think there are waysto explain away certain things,
like the cave paintings.
Maybe that was a dragon.
I do believe there wereLeviathan, as mentioned in
Scripture.
Yes, I believe there wereperhaps larger, much larger
(11:25):
beings, like whales.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Job, also in the book of Job, talks about an animal
that could drink the rivers dry.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Dinosaurs maybe, but do I think there's
extraterrestrial beings fromanother planet?
Maybe beings from anotherplanet, maybe?
I don't think that.
You know, I'm a realist, sowhen it comes to a lot of that,
I'm like, well, where's the body?
You know all these years oftechnology and where's the body?
(11:59):
I don't think anyone's everproduced a body.
I think you explain a lot ofthe Area 51.
Your grandfather worked at Area51, and your grandfather, your
uncle, worked at Area 51 andtold me in his latter days of
(12:23):
his life, I was fascinated withJets as a, you know, as a 16, 17
, 18, 16, 17 year old, and I was, you know, talking to him about
.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Which uncle?
Because I have quite a few.
Which one are you talking about?
Speaker 3 (12:38):
I'm Fred Johnson.
Oh, yeah, yeah, gotcha.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah, he was in the Air.
Force.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he did, yeah,yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
And so he, you know, when I was talking to him about
the Hawker Harrier and I waslike man, that's really cool,
this new jet that will justraise up and it'll take off, and
he's like that stuff.
We had that stuff in the 50sand 60s.
(13:07):
It's like what we're just nowhearing about it in the late 80s
, and so I think there's a lotof that stuff out there that we
don't know about.
Technology out there.
I mean, you have drones flyingall over the place July the 4th.
I'm watching fireworks and Ilook up and I was like, oh,
there's a linked chain of lights.
What is that?
(13:28):
It's a UFO.
And somebody in the group waslike, oh, that's Elon Musk.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
That's his.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Starlink strand of satellites.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
And there are just thousands of satellites out
there.
I don't know that we have anyproof that they're
extraterrestrial or aliens orbeings from other planets or
whatever you want to call them.
I do know that there are.
According to Scripture, whichis the barometer for me, we know
(14:03):
that Satan was banished fromheaven, along with a third of
the angels that are against God,and so I know there's an
angelic host.
Many times in Scripture you seemention of beings.
I have encountered both sides.
(14:24):
I think there are two sides.
I think there's a side, underthe influence of Satan, that are
manipulated by his commands,directly reporting to him as
their commander-in-chief.
There's a host as well that aredirectly reporting to Yahweh,
(14:47):
to Jehovah, to Jesus, as hismessengers, and we speak.
Throughout Scripture we see aplethora of examples of how we
can entertain angels and noteven be aware of it, and I've
experienced both sides.
I've entertained angels, Iexperienced both sides.
I've entertained angels, I'veseen them, I've met them, um,
but I've also, um, staredprobably not stared Satan in the
(15:09):
face.
One of my friends said um,don't kid yourself, you're not
that important.
Satan doesn't know Um and he'slike, but his minions do, his,
his demons do, and they, theyhate, they hate, they hate, they
hate us.
They.
They want to destroy umchristianity.
They always have wanted todestroy anything that has to do
(15:30):
with christ but um but yeahthat's um sort of my um 30 000
foot foot view of of of thatwell, a couple of things that
you said there that I want tohit on.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
And yes, I also have heard similar stories from Uncle
about some phenomena.
I've heard a couple of storiesI heard even one from my father,
which I talked about, on anepisode coming up that we've
already recorded, where my dadactually was traveling with
another preacher down an oldroad I think it was in Georgia,
(16:06):
a country road and a lightappeared out of the sky and got
bigger and bigger and justlanded in the road to the point
to where it scared them so muchthey turned around and went back
the other way because they didnot know what it was or how to
explain it, and I don't knowwhat that was.
And you say somethingfascinating to me when you say
(16:27):
we have no body.
We have, you know, even thoughthey say we have these things.
But I've thought that in thepast too.
But here's another thing youknow, our faith alone is a lot
of what we believe in there's no, when I and don't get me wrong,
it's a faith thing which, evenif you're, by the way, even if
(16:48):
you are someone who doesn't haveany religious ties, but you
believe in the Big Bang Theory,that takes to me just as much
faith to believe as the virginbirth, for instance, because you
don't really have any physicalproof, it's just something you
choose to believe.
As the virgin birth, forinstance, because you don't
really have any physical proof,it's just something you choose
to believe.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
I've said it yesterday, I think it takes more
faith to be an atheist, ittakes more faith to believe in
some of those things andprinciples than it does to
believe in Christ, because myfaith is not rooted in some you
know thought or some system ofsequence of you know mind farts,
(17:33):
if you will.
My faith is rooted and groundedin a knowledge of God, and so
my faith is informed by myknowledge of God.
So I have irrefutable proofthat God is who he says he is,
irrefutable proof that Jesus isGod and from the greatest
miracle that ever took place wasthe resurrection, the empty
(17:55):
tomb, documented by thousands ofpeople, hundreds, five hundreds
or so known witnesses of theempty tomb.
And he did everything else hesaid he was going to do.
And so all of that culminationin the metanarrative scripture
from Genesis 1-1, which isarguably the most disputed and
(18:22):
critical verse in the Bible.
In the beginning, god createdFrom Creator God all the way
through Jesus in the empty tomb.
We have all this proof and myfaith is rooted in that proof.
That he is who he said he was isirrefutable to me and it shapes
(18:43):
my faith.
My faith shapes my actions.
My beliefs shape what I do.
I believe in gravity, why, likeme and you, we jumped off the
bridge.
We've thrown the rocks off ofhigh buildings before and they
(19:07):
go smack at the bottom.
I believe gravity exists, sotherefore it shapes what I jump
off of.
You know, I'm 48 years old andI jumped off of a six-foot.
I tried to do a backflip.
It turned into a back buster.
Um off a pontoon boat lastweekend, um, and, and at six
(19:30):
foot, the gravity that took me.
I knew it was going to be asmack If I landed wrong.
It's going to burn a little bit, much less 60 feet, but because
I know the laws and theelements of what gravity does,
therefore I'm not going to gojump off that building.
And so my experience of Christ.
(19:54):
I think the greatest evidence isan empty tomb, but there are
layers and layers and layers ofevidences from that and before
that typology, leading to all ofthese, um, all of these
prophecies that said, hey, thisis going to happen.
You mentioned ezekiel, this isgoing to happen.
(20:15):
And 700 years later, whathappens?
That very thing happens.
I mean that odds of thathappening is so many.
Somebody said there's 245prophecies that Christ fulfilled
alone and the odds of doingthat is like filling a 40-foot
swimming pool or maybe it's a40,000-gallon swimming pool with
(20:39):
scrabble pieces and pulling outrandomly, blindfolded, reaching
into that pool of scrabblepieces and pulling out all these
letters and forming the longestEnglish word blindfolded.
That's the odds of fulfillingthe prophecies that Jesus
fulfilled, and so that shapes myfaith.
I think you mentioned religionearlier, billy, my distaste for
(21:08):
a lot of what the church isdoing today is that religion is
man-made principles.
For the most part, it's a setof rules Take your hat off when
you walk in the church, foldyour hands and close your eyes
when you pray.
You and I were cram-fit all ofthat.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
And if we didn't?
Speaker 3 (21:27):
do it.
We weren't told twice.
You and I were cram-fit all ofthat and if we didn't do it we
weren't told twice.
We feared our dads as much aswe did, or more than we feared
God.
All of those man-madeprinciples, those man-made rules
.
A lot of it leads to bondage.
Some of it's in place to guideand protect us.
(21:49):
But when I draw the line in thesand I go back to Jesus.
What did Jesus say?
Jesus said a new commandment Igive to you that you love one
another.
I don't think he was abolishingthe Ten Commandments.
I think the greatestcommandment ever written.
What he said?
A new commandment I've given toyou that you love one another.
(22:09):
He mentioned the greatcommandment he said the second's
likened to it love yourneighbor as yourself.
So I think fear God is acritical command that we have to
adhere to.
But it's not fear as in.
I'm not scared of God.
My fear of Him is reverence andknowing that the whole of who
(22:33):
he is is.
You know from 48 years ofexperience.
I also wanted to echo yourexperience and you mentioned you
know you wouldn't take anythingback and I get that.
You didn't say it exactly likethat.
I think you were alluding.
You appreciate even the sorrowsthat we went through.
Your mother made me foldclothes, for it seemed like a
(22:59):
whole half a day when I couldhave been playing with tractors
with you and your brother in theyard and I was folding, because
you remember, when she wasready to fold them clothes and
she's doing that laundry, it waseverybody chipped in.
So that's some of my firstmemories of your mom, back in
like 78 um, folding clothes.
(23:19):
I hated it, but to this day Iwas folding clothes on Friday or
Thursday night.
To this day I'm folding a club.
I'm folding the sleeves likeyour mom taught me, I mean from
all that time later.
And so life shapes us.
Even though we may not like it,it's preparing us for something
beautiful.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah.
I believe that Well, yeah, Iappreciate all of that, what you
say, because I can definitelyrelate.
And when it comes to one thingI appreciate about the life I've
lived, and I'm sure you do, isthe fact that, yeah, I too, I'm
confident that I can say I haveseen I guess you could call it
(24:06):
dark forces, you could call itSatan demons I have witnessed in
my life.
I've witnessed so-calledexorcisms.
I've witnessed ultimate mindcontrol.
When I say ultimate mindcontrol, I mean to the point to
where you would kill.
You would literally kill, ifthe word was told, if the word
(24:28):
came down the pike, that that'swhat you needed to do.
If the word was told, if theword came down the pike, that
that's what you needed to do.
So I understand the power ofthe mind and how people can
control it.
There's a movie called the Bookof Eli with and we're maybe
getting off topic, but that'sokay I think people will find
this interesting that have neverexperienced it.
But there is a movie called theBook of Eli with Denzel
(24:50):
Washington great movie.
Gary Oldman is the bad guy init and Gary, it's a
post-apocalyptic movie where allthe Bibles in the world have
been burned and they no longerexist.
But there is one that exists.
Denzel Washington is in controlof it and he has divine
protection.
He's going through this newworld with this Bible, keeping
(25:13):
it safe, and Gary Oldman ishaving trouble controlling his
minions and says, man, if we canjust get that Bible, we can
control everyone, which is afascinating statement, because
it's true, even though the Bibleis good for a lot of people,
the Bible can also bemanipulated.
Not because the Bible itselfmay be, it of people.
(25:33):
The Bible can also bemanipulated, not because the
Bible itself may be.
It's not something that it cando alone, but you can use people
, use that all the time formanipulation.
I have also witnessed somesupernatural stuff in my life
and to me, the very idea of God,the very idea of angels, the
very idea of demons,resurrection, all of those
(25:54):
things we see in the Bible, theparting of the Red Sea,
premonitions.
At one point in the OldTestament an animal is suddenly
given the gift of voice and cantalk, and can talk to his
handler and give him a warningfrom God.
And if you're not familiar withthe Bible, I apologize if
(26:15):
you're listening to this andyou're like, what are they
talking about?
But if you are familiar with itand then maybe you'll
appreciate this.
So the Bible itself is full ofwhat I would call supernatural
phenomena.
It just is.
There is not a lot ofexplanations for things in the
Bible.
You just either believe it andaccept it as what it is, or you
(26:36):
don't.
And that's true with everyreligion.
There are religions before theBible was written that have
similar stories, so people canmake of that what they will.
The reason I decided to staywith Christianity, for example,
had a lot to do with the NewTestament, had a lot to do with
the teachings of Jesus.
We no longer stone our childrenfor lying like they did in the
(27:00):
Old Testament.
God himself would command.
We talk about abortion andthese are getting way off topic.
We talk about abortion, but yetGod in the Old Testament would
say when you go into an intimateterritory, you kill everyone,
babies, pets.
So there is, there is the.
There.
There are so much in the.
There is so much in the Biblethat fascinates me.
(27:22):
I wouldn't even saycontradictory, I would just say
it's different times.
And Jesus comes along and sayswell, you know what?
Everything that was in the OldTestament, all the laws,
everything that was put in place, why don't we just put it this
way Do unto others what youwould have them do unto you?
Let's simplify it.
(27:44):
But even with Jesus, he did somany supernatural things.
There were so many supernaturalevents Hard to explain.
You say you choose to believe,and that's true.
You choose to believe what youbelieve because a lot of it our
minds just can't wrap our headaround it.
We don't see a lot of thosethings anymore that you see in
(28:09):
the Bible Miracles like they hadthen, these supernatural
phenomena that we see throughoutthe scriptures which, again,
you and I could talk about thisfor hours and hours and still
have so much more to talk about.
When it comes to the Bibleitself and it's fascinating to
(28:31):
me, but the Bible does reference, like you say, ufos, but how
you see it is how you see it andsomeone else may see it
differently I myself havewondered God is a spirit, and I
do believe God is a spiritualbeing and being.
(28:56):
That we just can't, and theBible does say that no one's
ever met God face to face, andwhat I mean by that is if he's a
spiritual person, we in thesefleshly bodies cannot.
We cannot see him in his form.
That's what I take from it.
And what is that form?
It's a spiritual form, and ifhe is a spiritual being, that
(29:20):
means inside of us is aspiritual being.
That also means that there aregood and evil spiritual beings
out there.
Some people call them demons.
There are good and evilspiritual beings out there.
Some people call them demons.
Join us for the next podcastepisode where we will continue
our discussion with Daniel,because this one went longer
than expected, but that's a goodthing, because I was hoping it
(29:40):
would.
That way, we can put this intotwo different episodes for you
guys, and I hope you'll reallylearn something.
And I hope you'll find thisconversation with Daniel Van
Cleve very fascinating, as I did.
And, with that being said, Iwill see you next time on the
Sonic Hitchhiker podcast that'lldo it for another edition of
(30:02):
the show.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Join Billy Shadow next week for another all-new
Sonic Hitchhiker podcast.
Thanks for checking out theSonic Hitchhiker podcast.
Thanks for checking out theSonic Hitchhiker podcast.
Follow us on Instagram at SonicHitchhiker podcast and get new
episodes Wednesdays, whereveryou get your podcasts.
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