October 7, 2025 • 54 mins
What if you’re not broken—you’re just waiting for permission you can only give yourself?
Stephanie and Maren sit down with Jillian Riley, author of The Ten Permissions, to rethink how we lead, parent, and make choices in a world where old formulas no longer fit. Instead of chasing the “right” answer, they explore how to
- use experiments over equations
- build the capacity to choose
- recover quickly when things don’t go as planned
We were all taught to “ask before you act”, which follows many of us into adulthood, slowing decisions and shrinking our sense of agency.
Jillian offers practical ways to shift our old programs and assumptions and shows how permission unlocks creativity, collaboration, and momentum
This conversation is equal parts candid and hopeful.
If you’re navigating career pivots, raising teens in a fast-changing world, or leading teams that feel stuck, you’ll walk away with tools to act, learn, and iterate—without waiting for someone else to say it’s okay.
Listen, share with a friend who needs a nudge, and if this resonates, subscribe and leave a review to help more people find the show.
Find The Ten Permissions at 10permissions.com, Amazon, and Barnes & Noble. Reach out to Jillian to join her community and explore these practices together.
About Jillian Reilly
Jillian Reilly is a founder, author, and keynote speaker. Having spent her 30-year career working in social, organizational, and individual change across Africa, Asia, and Central Europe, Jillian’s focus is on helping people unlock their ability to navigate change and accelerate growth and learning. Jillian’s book, The Ten Permissions, guides readers in permitting themselves to update how they operate in the 21st century and design lives that fully leverage the possibilities of this disruptive world.
Jillian is a TEDX speaker and podcast host who has been published on international affairs in the Washington Post, Newsweek and the LA Times. Her memoir, Shame: Confessions of an Aid Worker in Africa, chronicles her early career in international development and the profound lessons it offered on the failings of the aid industry to drive growth across the developing world.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stephanie Allen (00:00):
Hi, welcome to The Soulful Leader Podcast.
Boy, have we got a reallyinteresting one for you today.
We have an outstanding guest,and we're going to talk a little
bit about permission.
Now, this isn't about givingyour permission slip to your
teacher.
You know, may I go to thebathroom, please, or raise your
hand.
This is really multidimensionalabout permission.
And I know myself as atherapist, we don't give
(00:24):
ourselves permission to rest orreceive.
We often, you know, try toforge ahead and make things
happen.
And when things don't work outor when things aren't going the
way we would like them, we tendto think, there must be
something wrong with me.
I'm broken.
I need fixing.
And so this is her line.
She says, we are not broken,deviant or deficient.
(00:44):
We don't need fixing.
We need permission.
Maren Oslac (00:48):
So, I think it is actually about that permission
slip.
And the reason I say that isbecause we're so conditioned to
ask for permission when we'reyounger.
And then nobody, nobody teachesus how to move to the next
stage of our lives where we giveourselves permissions.
(01:08):
And I love that our guest nameis Jillian Riley.
And what I love about Jillianis she doesn't leave it at the
flatland of like, okay, checkthe box.
I know now that I need to askmyself permission.
She actually goes through andthere's 10 permissions.
So, she takes it to deeper anddeeper levels.
And it's so robust and sofulfilling.
(01:33):
And I know when I was readingthe book and talking to her too,
that's what I get all excitedabout our conversation that we
had, is like there were allthese 'AHA' moments about giving
myself permission and alsocreating a world.
She's all about like creating aworld in which we're raising
(01:55):
children and helping the youngergenerations to give themselves
permission.
So that as we go into thisunknown, how...
how do we...
how does one navigate theunknown?
Stephanie Allen (02:10):
You have to...
Maren Oslac (02:12):
Go ahead... yes
And for for most of us, youknow, she's a parent herself, so
she talks about, you know,parenting her children, but for
most of us, we don't even givethat to ourselves.
So to look at the parts withinourselves that are fighting
against doing something, we'reholding back, or we are afraid
for or we're conditioned in someways to not even go for it.
(02:33):
And that is what our world isneeding right now.
If we...
and it not going ahead andtrying to, you know, run over
everybody, but to give yourselfpermission to truly love and be
loved, to succeed, to go for thedream that you've never had,
to, you know, take on a new anew ideal or a new way of living
or being, to really allowyourself means we need to find
(02:56):
ways to give ourselvespermission.
And that might be giving waysto your own inner children as
well, inside yourself.
And from a leadership perspective, when we
hold back, like Stephanie wassaying, and we we don't give
ourselves permission.
So we...
we hold back and we hem and wehaw, we eliminate any
(03:17):
creativity.
And so solutions come fromcreativity, from imagination.
So we end up being stuck, andour organizations end up being
stuck until we give ourselvespermission.
And we we talk about all ofthese very cool aspects of it in
our interview.
So the two of us are gonna shutup, and we're gonna let you
(03:41):
enjoy our interview with JillianRiley, author of The Ten
Permissions.
Stephanie Allen (03:50):
In a world where we have everything and
it's still not enough, we'reoften left wondering, is this
really it?
Maren Oslac (03:56):
Deep inside, you know there's more to life.
You're ready to leave behindthe old push your way through
and claim the deeper, moremeaningful life that's calling
you.
That's what we invite you toexplore with us.
We're your hosts, StephanieAllen and Maren Oslac.
And this is the Soulful LeaderPodcast.
Yay! So welcome to The SoulfulLeader Podcast.
(04:20):
We have an amazing guest withus today.
And we're gonna jump right in.
Her name is Jillian, and shehas written a book recently
called The Ten Permissions.
And I would love to hear alittle bit about Jillian.
What what what kind of inspiredthat book?
(04:40):
And we'll get into kind of likeall what it's about stuff.
And I would love to hear alittle bit of the background
about what inspired the book.
Jillian Reilly (04:48):
Yeah, I mean, I...
the book is kind of 30 years inthe making, I think, because
both from my own personal storyof sort of stepping off the path
that had been laid out for meby my family, by my you know,
culture, my community.
I took a decision very earlyon in my life to sort of find my
(05:11):
own way and follow my own path.
And that took me into the worldof change and social change,
international development,organizational change.
So I feel like I've spent alifetime sort of helping people
navigate change and doing thesame myself in my own life.
And, you know, I think we're ata moment where we are
(05:34):
navigating really profoundchange.
Everyone I know feels likethey're, you know, kind of
making or managing change,whether because they want to or
because they have to.
And it just felt like a goodtime to make a contribution to
a conversation around how we canthrive in a world that feels
(05:55):
like just hugely acceleratingand very profound change.
Stephanie Allen (06:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
I...
I loved part, there was a partin your in your book when you're
talking about it's not changethat we fear, it's the
discomfort.
Jillian Reilly (06:12):
Yeah.
And that really resonated with me.
And there's a lot of discomfortthese days.
You know, it just seems likeit's never going to end.
And I, you know, I think thisbook is very timely in the way
of supporting...
how do we get through that?
Like what is your...
what is your take on this withthe discomfort and the
(06:34):
uncertainty and the in thechange?
Yeah, I mean, I started this during COVID.
You know, everyone was eithermaking sourdough or banana bread
or writing a book, and Idecided to do maybe all three at
different points, but I didn'treally know what I was starting.
I think even at that point, Iknew that, you know, this was a
(06:57):
"Sea Change".
There was something, and youknow, whatever you want to call
it, an inflection point in termsof a sense that, you know, how
we'd always operated would neverbe the same again.
And I think for a little whilewe thought there was an
aberration and we might returnto some version of what we'd
known in the late 20th century.
(07:17):
And I think now we're all kindof settling into an acceptance
of uh to use a cliche, newnormal, where as you say, it
feels precarious, it feelsuncertain.
A lot of our go-to ways ofthinking about how we lead our
lives are now, feel like, youknow, they're evaporating in
(07:37):
front of us as strategies thatwe feel confident will reward
us, you know, linear careerpaths.
The whole concept of acorporate career is now being,
you know, discussed as will thatcontinue to exist?
Should kids go to college?
I mean, things that we didn'teven question when I was growing
up are now up for grabs.
(07:59):
And so the pressure onindividuals to make choices,
choices that previously wereconsidered a no-brainer are now
for you to decide.
And so, you know, I thinkthere's the discomfort of having
to make choices, and because inmany ways I think we're raised
(08:19):
to outsource our choices toeverything around us.
And you know, one of thelessons of my own experience in
change is particularly whenwe're making what I describe as
'Novel Choices".
So never done it before, don'tknow anybody else who's done it.
I sort of describe it as beingthe first or the last.
(08:41):
Now that's part because you'vegot to be very comfortable and
confident and back yourself.
And in my own experience ofchange, um, that's not something
that the average human wants todo readily, but I think we're
gonna be called upon to do itever more moving forward.
(09:01):
So, how do we do that?
How do we get more comfortablewith that?
Stephanie Allen (09:06):
Yeah, I mean that that's such a real key
because I know in my own heart Igo, oh, okay, when can I just
rest?
When can, you know, when isthis?
It's gonna stop.
It's gonna stop soon.
Like all this change, it'sgonna stop.
And having that realizationthat I better get on board.
I better find some ways to dothis.
(09:27):
Because, you know, if if wedon't find ways, Jillian, if we
don't find ways to really managethese changes, what are the
outcomes?
And if we constantly keepputting, you know, like you
mentioned, like you keep lookingoutside ourselves for answers.
And if we continue to keepdoing that, what's going to
(09:48):
happen?
Jillian Reilly (09:48):
Right.
I think that's genuinely one ofthe biggest shifts that we're
being called to do to make rightnow.
And the challenge being that wewere not prepared for that.
And my sense of mission andpurpose around the book is a
little bit to contribute topreparing another generation to
do that, because, you know, Ithink as young people, as
(10:12):
children, we are actuallyencouraged to look around,
encouraged to look around andsay, may I, is it okay?
And understandably so.
I'm not suggesting that that'sa completely inappropriate
expectation, but I think in aworld where we have to decide
what's right for us, where thereare choices and consequences as
(10:32):
opposed to right and wrong, um,we need to prepare people to
feel more confident with, okay,I'm making this decision, and I
don't have the comfort ofpredictability on my side.
I have to step into it andtreat it as a process of
exploration and discovery ratherthan a process of executing on
(10:54):
a familiar equation.
So, you know, I talk a lotabout living in a world of
experiments rather thanequations, and what does that
make you feel?
Well, of course, it makes youfeel unsettled.
So yeah, I think we're w inthis in between right now, and
and I think younger people aregonna spend much more time,
(11:15):
obviously, in this world, and sothey won't necessarily feel
what we are, but I think we'regrieving a lot right now.
Mostly a familiar formula foryou know what I describe as 'if
then'.
If I do this, then it's gonnabe okay.
If I go to college, then I'llget a job.
If I work hard at my job, thenthey won't fire me.
(11:38):
None of these things are trueanymore.
So we don't have formulas, andI think that leaves us feeling
very insecure.
Maren Oslac (11:47):
Yeah, I oftentimes Stephanie and I will talk about
it of the unknown, becauseessentially what you're talking
about is living in that unknown,and we're not trained to live
in the unknown, we're trained toobey somebody else's or live
somebody else's way of doingthings.
(12:08):
And that's why one of thereasons that I love the book is
you come from this place of wewere given these permissions
from the outside world.
And what does it look like totake the permissions and own
them ourselves?
Yes, and give ourselvespermission to do things rather
(12:30):
than, and and I agree with you,it's not...
children do need to be learnedto ask permission, and then
where is that threshold where westop asking permission of the
outer world, recognizing andrespecting the rules while also
pushing the boundaries and andyou know finding that for
(12:54):
ourselves?
Jillian Reilly (12:55):
Yeah.
Maren Oslac (12:56):
So I love that.
If you could speak a little bitmore to maybe what do you find
is kind of that is, or maybe isthere, is there a magic place
where you can move from askingpermission from the world to
giving permission to yourself?
Jillian Reilly (13:18):
Yeah, I think as you just said, I mean there
are explicit rules that shapethe way that you know
communities interact, the waythat systems function.
And we all need to respectthose.
I think there are thenunderneath those a lot of
implicit and unwritten rules,which nobody's agreed on and
(13:41):
aren't written in stone, anddon't necessarily contribute to
the functioning of thecollective, but just have become
part of its way of operating.
And I think in a lot of cases,the you know, interpersonal
interactions, individual choice,we might have more room than we
(14:03):
ever even claim to makeindividual choice, but because
we are existing in these spaceswhere we believe there's an
implicit injunction againstthat, we don't even test it, we
don't even activate our ownagency to ask for it or act on
it.
I was talking to a teacher theother day who of university
(14:28):
students or college students,where her experiment was to
bring them into a room where thefurniture could move around,
and there were far fewerstudents than there were places,
so everybody scattered around,and she sort of said, you know,
and they were all disengaged andsort of in their own spaces.
And when she said to them, Uh,why don't you move this room
(14:52):
around to make it work for you?
And they were kind of like,well, can we?
And she was like, yeah, andthen they got up and looked, and
they saw that the furnitureactually had wheels on it, and
the sides flipped down, andeverything was actually far more
fluid than they'd had even goneto look for to notice.
(15:17):
And a few of them said, oh mygosh, I've been in this same
room for a really long time, andI never even looked.
And I thought, what a perfectmetaphor for how we enter into a
variety of things, whether it'srooms or relationships or
roles, where we kind of don'teven activate our sense of
choice and our options becausewe assume a sort of passive role
(15:42):
within that space.
And I think in many ways,again, we've been sort of
conditioned to believe thatthat's a sign of good manners,
that that's a sign of goodbehavior, that you don't impose
yourself.
But actually, it's justengaging and co-creating, and
you can do that with greatrespect to other people and
(16:03):
great respect to the community.
So, you know, I think in manyways we're moving out of a time
when that sort of obedience, ifyou will, was rewarded and
required to work within largesystems where you executed on a
set of commands and a set of youknow ways of working.
And now we're being called uponto be more entrepreneurial, to
(16:26):
be more creative, to self-lead.
And that's going to require avery different set of behaviors.
Stephanie Allen (16:33):
Yeah, I think we're definitely conditioned
from our childhood to askpermission, which again is a
very good thing.
And then we get, as we getolder, it's so pervasive that we
just default to not askingourselves permission, but
looking outside ourselves in theworld.
And I often use the example ofbreathing, of like inhaling and
(16:55):
exhaling.
We often, you know, one of thetrick questions I always say,
which is better, inhale toinhale or to exhale?
And yet we need both.
So there's nothing wrong withasking permission outside
yourself, but when do we startto ask ourselves inside
permission?
And how do we ask ourselvespermission?
In what I mean, how is like,are we even able to create space
(17:18):
within it to even say, oh, whatwould it be like if I asked
myself if I gave myselfpermission to receive right now,
or gave myself permission torest, or gave myself permission
to ask a question, what wouldthat be like?
How would that then you knowchange my world?
Jillian Reilly (17:36):
Right.
And you, Maren, you asked aboutan age, and I don't think
there's a golden cutoff, but youknow, I talk to 15-year-olds,
14, 15, 16-year-olds.
And when I say, you know, youare the authority in yourself by
virtue of being a human, youknow, you are your own
authority, you know you, you areyou.
It's like that's hugelytransgressive.
(18:00):
What?
You know, you have aself-knowledge, you have an
essential will that is yours.
And you know, I've had so manyteenagers come up to me
afterwards and be like, oh mygosh, nobody's ever said that to
me before.
So what would it take to beginto engage with teens?
(18:21):
And I do believe we could startearlier, but just start there,
who, you know, very soon willneed to navigate a world of
infinite choice and hugeresponsibility for self and
start to thoughtfully engagethem as you've just described,
Stephanie, and sort of, youknow, making some choices and
backing them and potentiallyfailing, potentially screwing
(18:45):
up, potentially getting lost,potentially getting hurt.
Okay, cool.
What I've seen, and you know,it's my generation of parents,
who've done exactly theopposite.
In the face of what theyperceive as a chaotic world,
they're doubling down ever moreon, you know, managing them.
And then we wonder why we havequote unquote snowflakes.
(19:07):
It's like because we're notpreparing them for the world,
and then we're sending them outin it with a very old playbook
that doesn't work, and thenwe're wondering why they feel
overwhelmed.
It's like because they're notprepared and we haven't prepared
them.
Maren Oslac (19:26):
I...gosh, there's there's actually so much that I
want to say.
One of the things that I heardyou say is there's a amount of
self-knowledge.
And we I think you know, whenwe think about starting with
teens, and I a lot of ourlisteners either have teens or
(19:47):
they work with teens.
And I have to come back tostarting with us because our
generation was not taught, mygeneration was not taught to
know ourselves.
And that's what I heard you sayis we weren't taught to know
ourselves.
And so we don't havenecessarily the skills to then
(20:10):
teach our children or theirchildren, you know, we've passed
that on through the generationsof don't know yourself, do what
you're told, you know, listen,don't be...
don't be listened, don't beloud, you know, listen, speak
when you're spoken to, and allof the things that I was raised
(20:30):
with.
And so that is something that Istruggle with is who am I and
what right do I have?
And so if I'm struggling withthat, and I'm passing that on to
the people that I come incontact with, it makes sense
that what you were saying ofwe're raising a generation of
(20:52):
children that are, like yousaid we are calling them
snowflakes, and they just don'thave the tools.
So I love what you're doing inbringing attention to it.
And I would encourage ourlisteners to not just look at it
from okay, we need to help thenext generation.
(21:13):
Oftentimes the best way we canhelp the next generation is by
addressing it inside ofourselves and looking inside of
ourselves for where is that truefor me?
Jillian Reilly (21:24):
Beautifully put, and I completely agree with
you.
You know, my work, my emergingwork is with parents.
I'm a parent, I have a 17 and a14-year-old.
It's tough, it's weird.
You know, you don't know whatto reward, you don't know what
to applaud.
I 've wrote a Substack postabout it just a few days ago.
(21:48):
It's like my kid comes homewith a good grade.
Am I supposed to be like...
yes?
Or kind of look at it and go,well, that's great.
I mean, that that's nice, ofcourse.
I'm pleased, but I'm under noillusions that it's a reflection
of a sort of fitness tosucceed.
I think we need to do our ownwork around the way that we are
(22:13):
straddling worlds and thereality that it makes us feel
out of control to step into away, a different way, and a sort
of not knowing, which you know,it genuinely feels very
fragile.
(22:34):
But if you can, for me, I kindof try and play around in some
of the lower consequencemoments, and I think that's
where we start around choicesthat are not, you know, what are
you gonna be when you grow up?
But, you know, what do you wantto eat?
And again, I know that there'sgonna be a whole group of people
(22:54):
who are like, oh, we've beenraising these young people to
decide if they want fish fingersevery day and what they want to
wear, and it's led to theseentitled young kids and yada,
yada, yada.
I think that especially whenwe're talking about teens, we
need to work out how to helpthem activate their agency, you
know, learn to take some risk,make decisions, deal with
(23:19):
consequences.
And all of this can be donewithin a realm that doesn't have
to feel like, you know, um,it's a radical departure from
any of the common sense valuesthat any parent would bring into
their household around, youknow, the kinds of respectful
and caring and thoughtful youngpeople we want to put out into
(23:39):
the world.
We are very afraid.
My generation of parents isvery afraid that the old
formulas for success don't workanymore, and we don't have a new
one, and we feel very lostbecause we can't hand them a
okay, honey, get straight A'sand go to a good college, and
(24:03):
then everything's gonna be fine,and I can sit back and relax.
We don't have it, and if wethink we do, and I think a lot
of parents do are doubling downon that right now because it's
all they've got, you know.
I think we're in for a realwake-up call very soon.
Maren Oslac (24:21):
Yeah, I know Stephanie and I have talked
about this before.
We both know teens that theywon't...
they refuse to make decisions.
Talking to a young woman, wentto dinner with her and her older
brother, who is in his 20s,she's in her teens and he's in
his 20s, and went out to dinnerand she kept asking him, what do
(24:47):
I want to, what do I want toeat?
And she wouldn't make adecision.
She's like, I trust him.
She trusted him to make thedecision for her.
She didn't trust herself.
He knows what I like.
What should I eat?
What should I over here?
You know, and Stephanie's had asimilar experience.
It it is hard for bothgenerations, all the I should
(25:13):
say, all the generations, right?
Because how do we step intothat agency?
And I love that what you hadsaid about it needs to be done
in ways that don't feel likethey're the end of the world.
So after I had dinner withthis, young woman, I kind of, if
(25:34):
I lived closer to her, I wouldbe doing this regularly of like
taking her to restaurants and belike, order everything, let's
order it.
Let's do it.
Like, let's do something, tohow do we start to move past
that freezing in the face of achoice because the future is
completely unknown.
(25:55):
We can't rely on what we usedto do, it's changing so quickly.
So we have to be able to, youknow, not live in the old fixed
mindset and really start toembrace that that curiosity that
you were talking about.
Jillian Reilly (26:12):
Yeah.
And you know, intentionalchoice is I think the term
superpower is overused, but I'mgonna use it again.
Because I truly believe that.
And my 30 years of working inchange taught me that.
Because when you come down tothe face of having to make or
manage change, as I said alittle while ago, you will be
(26:33):
making novel choices.
You're gonna be making newones, you're gonna be making
ones that maybe take you into aspace you haven't been in
before.
So you're gonna be like, oh mygosh, is this...
wow! Now, if you can't evenmake a routine choice, what do I
want to eat for lunch?
Then it when it comes time tomake a new one, which is okay,
(26:54):
you know, my what I studied todo is now obsolete.
I need to figure out how topivot all of my training to do
something else, you willliterally crumble in the face of
having to step into new spaces.
And I think a lot of for me,the book is about almost, you
(27:15):
know, I talk about kind ofpersonal change management as a
core skill that yeah, go out tolunch and literally like not
only make a choice, but forceyourself to make different ones.
Like, don't just always get acheeseburger if that's what you
always choose.
Like, be like, okay, today I'mgonna get a Caesar Salad and and
(27:38):
just experience that becauseStephanie, I think that comes
back to the discomfort of whatif I don't like it?
What if, you know, I don't knowwhat I'm doing with it?
And the more that you start tokind of, as I talk about in the
book, discern discomfort fromdanger, I'm okay, I might not
(28:00):
have felt good, but I'm stillhere.
And maybe I have more tolerancefor those moments, or at least
I can recognize them and knowthat I'm still safe.
Like those are just such keycapabilities.
And they are things that we canpractice.
They are a practice, they are,you know.
(28:20):
So I think that's sort of a lotof where I want to take the
conversation with the book isthat it's not about fixing
something that you perceive asbeing wrong in your life, it's
about developing a capability tocontinually navigate change and
make it in your life becauseyou're going to have to.
Stephanie Allen (28:39):
I think that's wonderful.
And even like the part of havegiving yourself permission to be
between, you know, like I thinkwe get very polarized.
It's like, well, if I do or ifI don't, you know, am I right or
am I wrong?
Am I good or am I bad?
Or what if I, you know, if Ireally mess up or I really fail?
And like you said, it's youknow, to discern between
discomfort and danger, that isso key.
(29:00):
It is so key because I think weput everything in the category
of danger.
Jillian (29:05):
Abpsolutely. Everything and everything ever more, ever
more.
I mean, I can't tell you howmany times that and I want to
bring it back to the kind ofparenting conversation where
parents now see the world asbeing fraught with danger.
It's just everything'sdangerous, everything's a
problem.
Like the the fear factor as itrelates to our and and when you
(29:27):
try and kind of have rationalconversations around it in terms
of okay, I know it might not begreat, and they might, you
know, end up hurt or lost, youknow, all the things that every
human probably should be at somepoint in their lives, but they
will come back from that a youknow, with a wider base of
(29:48):
experiences.
And that's what we aredepriving our kids of is this
kind of experience basedadaptability.
So the only way to gain this isto earn it.
It's not a passive knowledgethat you imbibe.
It's an earned capabilitythrough experiences that begin
to reward you.
(30:09):
So if we never allow them to dothose things, if we are...
if we're always watching, ifwe're always controlling, they
never earn those things.
And I think that's part of whatwe are seeing and what we are
experiencing right now.
I have big conversations withmy peers around tracking our
(30:29):
kids.
I'm one of like literally twopeople who don't.
And I mean, it raises a lot ofeyebrows.
And I'm just like, well, I needto train them to communicate
with me, to have good risk youknow, capabilities, to make
smart decisions.
If I'm playing big brother allthe time, you know, it shifts
(30:52):
the dynamic.
Stephanie Allen (30:53):
Well, it's ultimately sharing that you
don't trust them.
So, you know, when we'reconstantly hovering or
constantly tracking somebody, iterodes that self-confidence and
that self-reflection to say,well, and I see this all the
time instead of just saying,hey, look, I trust you.
And you know what?
You're gonna make mistakes, andwe all do, and I'm right here
(31:15):
for you.
I got your back.
Jillian Reilly (31:17):
Right.
That's right.
Stephanie Allen (31:18):
If we can start to create that space for them,
hopefully they'll start tocreate that space within
themselves to then go, okay, youknow, to self-reflect within
themselves.
Jillian Reilly (31:28):
Yeah, that self-awareness, Maren, again,
that sort of knowledge of self.
And, you know, then you get,well, the world's a so much more
dangerous place.
I'm like, okay, I'm notentirely convinced that
statistically it is.
But let me tell you what, as ayoung woman who left St.
Louis, Missouri, went toChicago, started riding on the
L, you know, was surrounded byevery nature of human who had
(31:52):
experiences that if my parentshad known about them, they would
have been shocked andhorrified, you know.
But that's what you did.
And by doing that, you, youknow, gained that muscle, you
gained that capability.
So if you're never allowed todo that, then as you've just
described, Stephanie, how do youdevelop that self-trust?
How do you get that confidenceof I'm okay, I'm okay?
(32:16):
It's a really interestingmoment where we, I think, are
struggling a little bit toconfidently allow both ourselves
and our young people to moveinto an unknown, trusting
ourselves and allowing ourselvesto surrender a little bit to
(32:40):
the realities of what we'redealing with.
Maren Oslac (32:44):
So if as our our listeners are listening, I know
that they're probably leaned inlike, yes, this describes my
life, or possibly because Idon't have children.
And what I'm hearing you say,it actually's happening inside
(33:06):
of me.
Like I'm experiencing that.
And so as I'm listening to you,I'm thinking, okay, where can I
give myself permission to dosome to move outside of my own
comfort zone, out of what I'vebeen trained to believe?
Um, so my question would be ifour listeners are looking for
(33:29):
something either for themselvesor possibly for their children,
or you know, a lot of we have alot of teachers that listen to
us.
So is there something that theycan be doing, something very
practical that they can startdoing today or tomorrow to
actually start to open that thatdoorway of curiosity and close,
(33:52):
start to close the the doorwayof fear, I would say.
Jillian Reilly (33:56):
Yeah, yeah, and that's a beautiful way to put
it because I do believe thatcuriosity is an antidote to
fear, and then the action thatwill arise from curiosity,
because I don't see curiosity asa passive state, I see it as an
a green light to go looking, agreen light to new experience, a
(34:17):
green light to new knowledge.
So, you know, that's a greatplace to start.
And, you know, one of thethings I talk about a lot is...
your weekends.
I call them like permissionsplaygrounds because the time is
yours.
It's easy during the week tofeel subject to, you know, sets
of responsibilities andauthorities outside of you.
(34:38):
The weekend is a space whereyou have choice, and yet we can
often get into our sort ofdefault operating mode and not
come alive to that choice andand not come alive to the
patterns that are fully withinour own capability to repattern.
So, you know, enacting thatsort of repatterning on a
(35:01):
weekend might feel a little bitless risky than it will in other
realms of your life.
And again, that can be apleasurable experience.
You can start to exercise thatagency by what you decide to do
on a Saturday afternoon when thequestion, the curiosity, as
you've already pointed out,first turns into self.
(35:24):
What do I want?
What do I feel like?
You know, what is piquing myinterest right now?
What is my body telling me itneeds?
Then being willing to respondto that, just even if it's a
small thing, it doesn't have tobe a massive undertaking.
Maren Oslac (35:43):
But I think getting into that cycle, being willing
to be wrong, like, oh, whoops, Ididn't quite get that correct.
Because I...
oftentimes what we'll end updoing is being like, well, that
didn't work for me.
And so then I just shut thatwhole thing down instead of
(36:03):
being like, okay, that didn'twork.
Part of the reason is because Ihaven't been trained to know
myself.
Jillian Reilly (36:10):
Right...right.
Maren Oslac (36:10):
We assume that we know ourselves.
We haven't been trained to knowourselves, and so we try a
little bit and then we hold backbecause we're like, oh, that
wasn't right.
I'm so bad, you know, like andthen the...
Stephanie has something shelikes to call the itty bitty
shitty committee, which is thethe internal...
Stephanie Allen (36:29):
...to give yourself permission to like turn
off the itty bitty shittycommittee.
It's like give yourselfpermission instead to go play
and learn in self-discovery.
Maren Oslac (36:37):
And be like, okay, that was completely wrong.
Like you said earlier, like,okay, I ordered the salad.
I always order the hamburgerand I ordered the salad instead,
and I really don't like it.
That's okay.
Jillian Reilly (36:49):
That's okay.
Stephanie Allen (36:50):
It didn't blow up the world.
Jillian Reilly (36:52):
It didn't blow up the world.
Well, I think Stephanie, youtalked about yeah, I obviously
talked about like binaries ofright and wrong.
And I think that for me is agood example where it's not
we're not here to kind of landon a new formula or to find the
right answer.
We're here to extend our baseof experience.
(37:14):
And by extending the base ofexperience, you open new things
up.
Stephanie Allen (37:18):
Yeah, sorry, go ahead.
No, just to open one's mind,open one's heart, open one's
willingness to like explore andbe a human being.
I just think we're so stuck.
And I often will say, you know,what is the worst thing that'll
happen?
Like seriously, if I make thischoice, what is the worst thing?
Well, I might feel a littleuncomfortable.
I mean, really, that's probablythe worst thing is like I might
(37:39):
be a little uncomfortable, butthat little uncomfortability
actually might be, oh my God, itmight be actually amazing.
Like it leads me to an all-orif it doesn't lead me to a whole
new wonderful experience, thenI've learned something.
I'm like, okay, ike Maren wassaying, it's like, okay, I don't
really want to have that, I'mnot gonna make that same choice
again.
I'm gonna choose somethingdifferent next time.
(37:59):
Or...
or I'm going to speak up andask for more directions or
more details so that I canreally understand if this is
really aligned with my with myvalues, with my needs, with my
longings.
And I don't know, I think wethink too much.
Jillian Reilly (38:17):
And experience too little.
You know, I I was talking to aneuroscientist the other day
about permissions, and she wastalking about experience-driven
neuroplasticity, which isessentially what you just said.
You know, the more youexperience, the more you train
your brain to be more adaptive,more plastic, because you are
(38:40):
basically feeding it with moreand more data through which to
draw from when it comes time tomake each and every choice.
You're you're expanding yourdata points for your brain to
work with.
And, you know, I've it'ssomething that I've been playing
around with for a long timebecause my own experience of
leaving, you know, the comfortof home and heading out into the
(39:02):
world was like one giantexperience-driven
neuroplasticity experiment.
Um, so if you were just to,with curiosity and care, treat
every single experience as goodsimply because it is like
feeding you with new data.
And you don't need to decide ifit is your thing or not.
(39:28):
You don't need to categorize itinto a you know binary bucket
of this is right or wrong.
It just has to be moreexperience, in which point you
walk away, you pay the bill, youwalk away and go, okay, that
was interesting, moving rightalong.
Um, and then the more you doit, the more you get the reward
(39:49):
of kind of realizing that, oh,it's fine if I didn't like the
movie.
Or I didn't, that that day tripwasn't everything that I hoped
it would be, but what the heck,I got out.
So I think there's a you know,the the benefit of experience
starts to evidence itself in youthe more that you you know move
(40:14):
out of your head and into theworld and out of your head and
into your body.
Um but that's a practice, it itdoesn't happen magically.
Stephanie Allen (40:24):
And the more you do it, the more it becomes
natural.
Jillian Reilly (40:28):
Like everything.
Stephanie Allen (40:29):
Yeah.
Jillian Reilly (40:30):
Like everything.
And I I think, you know, I inall of my work with change, it
was so often, you know, as Ireferenced a few minutes ago,
here's a problem, let's fix it.
And I'm like, no, because thatjust puts you into a certain way
of corrective thinking, whichrarely, to my mind, opens you up
(40:51):
to creative possibility.
And what I'm playing aroundwith is more of developing a
sort of fitness, a sort ofmuscle for trying things, for
allowing yourself to develop agreater um range, a ranginess
(41:13):
that will allow you to bringthings in and not be so afraid,
allow you to gain moreself-awareness and confidence.
And that has nothing to do withfixing a problem.
That has everything to do withfinding out what you're capable
of.
And I don't think most of ushave any clue what we're capable
of because we never even try,we never even get close.
Maren Oslac (41:38):
Yeah.
You know, Einstein said that inimagination is more important
than knowledge.
And whenever I think aboutthat, here's one of the greatest
minds of our century.
And he says imagination is moreimportant than knowledge.
And we have as a society haveidealized knowledge, which is
(41:59):
very fixed.
And when you try and fixsomething, whether it's making
it permanent or trying to fix aproblem, imagination gets tossed
out the window.
Yeah.
So the creativity comes fromcuriosity, it comes from not
trying to make or fix somethingas if there was a problem.
(42:23):
So we really do need to getbeyond the binary right wrong in
order to open possibility.
And I love the permissions thatyou talk about in the book
because one of the things that Ifound for myself is that they
are their tools for us to use tomove past that binary thinking,
(42:45):
the right, wrong thinking, andopen possibility in our lives,
in our children's lives, in ourstudents' lives, and you know,
in society in general.
And what an antidote that wouldbe for every place, all the
things that are going on for usin our world right now.
Jillian Reilly (43:04):
Yeah, thank you.
I mean, I love that tools formoving beyond the binary because
it is, I do think that's whatpermission is.
I think we are so conditionedwith right and wrong, so
conditioned with good or bad, soafraid of being wrong, so
afraid of being bad, becausethose are things that are
legacies of how most of us havebeen brought up.
(43:27):
Um and again, we we're notsupported to shift that.
Instead, we're then movedthrough academic systems that
are all about right or wronganswers, that are all about
knowing, that have almostnothing to do with imagination,
because those are just for likethe RD students.
So, you know, I think I thinkwe're in this interesting moment
(43:48):
where suddenly knowledge, youknow, is not as valuable as it
was a little while ago.
You know, we're on the cusp ofa super interesting moment where
that knowledge that, as yousay, we've treated as the gold
standard is now at everybody'sfingertips.
So what are we gonna do now?
Is it an opportunity for us tostep into imagination like never
(44:11):
before?
I'm sort of hoping it is.
Stephanie Allen (44:14):
I love that.
I hope it is too.
I hope it is too.
Yeah, it's time to move inwardand to listen to the voices
inside that are holding youback, that are keeping you
limited or small and discoveringthe potential and the
possibilities that are reallyalready within you.
Jillian Reilly (44:30):
Well, and some of what I'm saying is, gosh, you
know, we've been delivered thismoment where I'm not sure,
Stephanie, that we have a choiceanymore but to do that.
So, you know, when I talk aboutthe book, I say, well, when I
started to write it, the thosetools, this approach felt
somewhat aspirational.
Wouldn't it be nice?
(44:51):
Now it's like, I'm sorry, it'sstrategic.
You have to, because so much ofthat sort of, you know, what I
describe as putting on a suitand sleepwalking, stepping into
ready-made roles and allowingthem to shape your choices, your
behaviors, your trajectory,it's disappearing.
(45:11):
And without thatself-knowledge, without that
sense of curiosity andimagination, I'm afraid there's
going to be many, many peoplewho simply will be left behind
because they're unwilling totake the permission that this
moment is giving us to say,okay, um, maybe it's your
(45:32):
opportunity to be more human.
Are you willing?
Are you allowed?
Maren Oslac (45:38):
Yeah, I love that.
And I think that there arealready people that are feeling
left behind.
Jillian Reilly (45:46):
Absolutely.
And I see them all the time.
Maren Oslac (45:50):
So if you would, um, I would love to, you know,
I'm sure there are a lot ofpeople who are wondering where
they can find your book, wherethey can find out more about
you, because we haven't gotteninto Jillian's story, but her
story is fascinating.
So um, your book has some ofthat story in it.
I would love for you, if youwould be willing, to share where
(46:12):
to find the book and how toreach you if people are
interested in finding out more.
Jillian Reilly (46:17):
Yeah, so my website's a good sort of
stopping place to find out allthings 10 permissions, um,
10permissions.com.
You can order the book there.
It's available now on Amazonand Barnes and Noble and a few
other digital um onlinebooksellers.
Um in terms of reaching out tome, I just you know would really
(46:41):
want to encourage it.
I mean, I feel so, you know,there's the book, which is for
individuals and their ownindividual journey as we've been
talking about, but there'sanother piece of this for me,
which is wanting to kind of umcreate and facilitate community
because we're we don't have todo all this on our own, and yet
(47:06):
we are.
There's so many people, as yousaid, feeling left behind,
feeling lost, feeling like theirlife doesn't look the way it's
supposed to, but they're notsure how to make it look the way
they want it to or the way it'ssupposed to.
And I would say that's everyonefrom 21 to 41 to 61 kind of
sitting there going, but butwait.
(47:28):
Um, and I, you know, I say inthe book, this is about
individual permissions, but it'sabout social permission to
accept the fact that we need tooperate differently in a world
that is requiring us to, youknow, be so much more fluid and
adaptive, and that helps to doit with other people.
(47:49):
It helps to feel like you'renot the only one sitting at your
computer, sort of going, Oh mygosh, I'm just you know, I don't
know what's right, I don't knowwhat's wrong, I don't know
which path to take, I don't knowhow to be a parent, I don't
know how to, you know, be a goodleader, all these things where
I think people are really sortof um racked with self-doubt.
(48:14):
Like it's okay.
You can find other people whoare asking themselves the same
questions and maybe in thosespaces begin to support each
other to come into self and toshare with each other.
Stephanie Allen (48:29):
It gives hope, doesn't it?
You know, I think we can becomevery hopeless and helpless, and
that's you know, to when we docome together and we start to
delve in and giving ourselvespermission, having those
practices, and then being withothers who not only are living
it, but hold that space for usto live it too.
(48:49):
That's hope.
Jillian Reilly (48:51):
Yes, it is, and my goodness, do we need it?
Because I mean, you've read thebook.
I started off with saying, youknow, cynicism and despair have
kind of become a currency rightnow, and I think that's highly
problematic because it limitsour sense of agency.
We begin to believe that wedon't have choices, or at least
(49:12):
not any ones that are good, andI don't believe that I'm not
willing to buy it, I won't buyit for myself, I won't buy it
for my sons.
I won't, and I'm not gonnabelieve that they're going out
into a world that is doomed tokind of disappoint them.
So the only way for them to tapinto that, the only way for me
(49:33):
to tap into it is with hope.
Stephanie Allen (49:35):
Yes, yes, I think coming back to the
teenager style again is I, youknow, when I think of my my
family teenagers, I think aboutmyself as a teenager.
It's either I don't want to,you can't make me, and I'm you
know, I'm gonna do my own thinganyway, or why bother?
What's what's the point?
And so when we have hope and wehave that practice of learning
(49:59):
how to give ourselvespermission, the teenager in
ourselves as well as in our ourcurrency, our current, you know,
um society is now has a spaceto really drop in and choose a
whole new paradigm, which willunfold a whole new world, which
is what we're needing because wedon't know what it's gonna look
(50:19):
like.
We need to like drop in andcreate something that is going
to be nourishing and beautifuland hopeful.
Jillian Reilly (50:27):
Yeah, and I love that dropping in and
creating that.
And what if we were to believethat they actually could, that
they will, and all we need to dois make space for them.
I love it, you know, instead ofthis sort of like sitting
staring at our phones hopingthat you know they don't get,
it's like why what what if wewere to believe that they were
(50:50):
unbelievably powerful and theywere, you know, had such
limitless potential instead ofoh my gosh, if I don't find the
safest container for them, theywill, you know, be wrecked by
this world.
It's like I often over the pasttwo years, as I've written this
book and as I'm now bringing itout into the world, and I get
(51:13):
this sort of like I think asyou're talking about, go back to
your teenage self, go back tothat young woman who got on a
plane to South Africa, whodidn't have a clue what she was
stepping into, but was willingto do that.
So, you know, I'll say tomyself now, buckle up, Jill, you
can do it.
She did it, you can do it.
You know, there's so muchbeauty in that youthful
(51:37):
willingness to go out andexplore.
And I think we would doourselves and the next
generation a great favor byletting them do it more.
Maren Oslac (51:45):
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much becausefor me, this has been a
conversation about hope frombeginning to end and holding
space for the potential of afuture for all of us that is
much greater than, you know,what I think a lot of us are
(52:06):
seeing.
So I just want to thank you somuch for being with us today and
sharing your vision and yourplatform for allowing that to
happen, for helping to make thathappen.
Jillian Reilly (52:21):
And right back at you.
You know, it's such an honorand a privilege for me to come
into the lives of other peoplewho have their own platforms
that are you know putting ideasand emotions and beliefs into
the world that help each one ofus, whether we're listening to
this driving somewhere or youknow, sitting in a comfortable
(52:44):
chair to believe, to be remindedof who's in the world right
now, making their way, findingtheir way, bringing their best
contribution out there.
And I think you guys are abeautiful example of that.
So thank you for the invitationto join your conversation.
Maren Oslac (53:01):
Thank you so much.
And as a reminder to all of ourlisteners, the show notes will
have links to the book.
And you can find us at www.TheSoulful Leader Podcast.com or on
our project page, whichhttps://tslp.life.
(53:22):
And we will see you all in twoweeks.
Thanks for joining us.
Stephanie Allen (53:35):
And that wraps up another episode of The
Soulful Leader Podcast with yourhosts, Stephanie Allen,
Maren Os (53:43):
and Maren Oslac. Thank you for listening.
If you'd like to dive deeper,head over to our website at the
www.TheSoulfulLeaderPodcast.com.
Until next time.
Hi, welcome to The Soulful Leader Podcast.
Boy, have we got a reallyinteresting one for you today.
We have an outstanding guest,and we're going to talk a little
bit about permission.
Now, this isn't about givingyour permission slip to your
teacher.
You know, may I go to thebathroom, please, or raise your
hand.
This is really multidimensionalabout permission.
And I know myself as atherapist, we don't give
(00:24):
ourselves permission to rest orreceive.
We often, you know, try toforge ahead and make things
happen.
And when things don't work outor when things aren't going the
way we would like them, we tendto think, there must be
something wrong with me.
I'm broken.
I need fixing.
And so this is her line.
She says, we are not broken,deviant or deficient.
(00:44):
We don't need fixing.
We need permission.
Maren Oslac (00:48):
So, I think it is actually about that permission
slip.
And the reason I say that isbecause we're so conditioned to
ask for permission when we'reyounger.
And then nobody, nobody teachesus how to move to the next
stage of our lives where we giveourselves permissions.
(01:08):
And I love that our guest nameis Jillian Riley.
And what I love about Jillianis she doesn't leave it at the
flatland of like, okay, checkthe box.
I know now that I need to askmyself permission.
She actually goes through andthere's 10 permissions.
So, she takes it to deeper anddeeper levels.
And it's so robust and sofulfilling.
(01:33):
And I know when I was readingthe book and talking to her too,
that's what I get all excitedabout our conversation that we
had, is like there were allthese 'AHA' moments about giving
myself permission and alsocreating a world.
She's all about like creating aworld in which we're raising
(01:55):
children and helping the youngergenerations to give themselves
permission.
So that as we go into thisunknown, how...
how do we...
how does one navigate theunknown?
Stephanie Allen (02:10):
You have to...
Maren Oslac (02:12):
Go ahead... yes
And for for most of us, youknow, she's a parent herself, so
she talks about, you know,parenting her children, but for
most of us, we don't even givethat to ourselves.
So to look at the parts withinourselves that are fighting
against doing something, we'reholding back, or we are afraid
for or we're conditioned in someways to not even go for it.
(02:33):
And that is what our world isneeding right now.
If we...
and it not going ahead andtrying to, you know, run over
everybody, but to give yourselfpermission to truly love and be
loved, to succeed, to go for thedream that you've never had,
to, you know, take on a new anew ideal or a new way of living
or being, to really allowyourself means we need to find
(02:56):
ways to give ourselvespermission.
And that might be giving waysto your own inner children as
well, inside yourself.
And from a leadership perspective, when we
hold back, like Stephanie wassaying, and we we don't give
ourselves permission.
So we...
we hold back and we hem and wehaw, we eliminate any
(03:17):
creativity.
And so solutions come fromcreativity, from imagination.
So we end up being stuck, andour organizations end up being
stuck until we give ourselvespermission.
And we we talk about all ofthese very cool aspects of it in
our interview.
So the two of us are gonna shutup, and we're gonna let you
(03:41):
enjoy our interview with JillianRiley, author of The Ten
Permissions.
Stephanie Allen (03:50):
In a world where we have everything and
it's still not enough, we'reoften left wondering, is this
really it?
Maren Oslac (03:56):
Deep inside, you know there's more to life.
You're ready to leave behindthe old push your way through
and claim the deeper, moremeaningful life that's calling
you.
That's what we invite you toexplore with us.
We're your hosts, StephanieAllen and Maren Oslac.
And this is the Soulful LeaderPodcast.
Yay! So welcome to The SoulfulLeader Podcast.
(04:20):
We have an amazing guest withus today.
And we're gonna jump right in.
Her name is Jillian, and shehas written a book recently
called The Ten Permissions.
And I would love to hear alittle bit about Jillian.
What what what kind of inspiredthat book?
(04:40):
And we'll get into kind of likeall what it's about stuff.
And I would love to hear alittle bit of the background
about what inspired the book.
Jillian Reilly (04:48):
Yeah, I mean, I...
the book is kind of 30 years inthe making, I think, because
both from my own personal storyof sort of stepping off the path
that had been laid out for meby my family, by my you know,
culture, my community.
I took a decision very earlyon in my life to sort of find my
(05:11):
own way and follow my own path.
And that took me into the worldof change and social change,
international development,organizational change.
So I feel like I've spent alifetime sort of helping people
navigate change and doing thesame myself in my own life.
And, you know, I think we're ata moment where we are
(05:34):
navigating really profoundchange.
Everyone I know feels likethey're, you know, kind of
making or managing change,whether because they want to or
because they have to.
And it just felt like a goodtime to make a contribution to
a conversation around how we canthrive in a world that feels
(05:55):
like just hugely acceleratingand very profound change.
Stephanie Allen (06:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
I...
I loved part, there was a partin your in your book when you're
talking about it's not changethat we fear, it's the
discomfort.
Jillian Reilly (06:12):
Yeah.
And that really resonated with me.
And there's a lot of discomfortthese days.
You know, it just seems likeit's never going to end.
And I, you know, I think thisbook is very timely in the way
of supporting...
how do we get through that?
Like what is your...
what is your take on this withthe discomfort and the
(06:34):
uncertainty and the in thechange?
Yeah, I mean, I started this during COVID.
You know, everyone was eithermaking sourdough or banana bread
or writing a book, and Idecided to do maybe all three at
different points, but I didn'treally know what I was starting.
I think even at that point, Iknew that, you know, this was a
(06:57):
"Sea Change".
There was something, and youknow, whatever you want to call
it, an inflection point in termsof a sense that, you know, how
we'd always operated would neverbe the same again.
And I think for a little whilewe thought there was an
aberration and we might returnto some version of what we'd
known in the late 20th century.
(07:17):
And I think now we're all kindof settling into an acceptance
of uh to use a cliche, newnormal, where as you say, it
feels precarious, it feelsuncertain.
A lot of our go-to ways ofthinking about how we lead our
lives are now, feel like, youknow, they're evaporating in
(07:37):
front of us as strategies thatwe feel confident will reward
us, you know, linear careerpaths.
The whole concept of acorporate career is now being,
you know, discussed as will thatcontinue to exist?
Should kids go to college?
I mean, things that we didn'teven question when I was growing
up are now up for grabs.
(07:59):
And so the pressure onindividuals to make choices,
choices that previously wereconsidered a no-brainer are now
for you to decide.
And so, you know, I thinkthere's the discomfort of having
to make choices, and because inmany ways I think we're raised
(08:19):
to outsource our choices toeverything around us.
And you know, one of thelessons of my own experience in
change is particularly whenwe're making what I describe as
'Novel Choices".
So never done it before, don'tknow anybody else who's done it.
I sort of describe it as beingthe first or the last.
(08:41):
Now that's part because you'vegot to be very comfortable and
confident and back yourself.
And in my own experience ofchange, um, that's not something
that the average human wants todo readily, but I think we're
gonna be called upon to do itever more moving forward.
(09:01):
So, how do we do that?
How do we get more comfortablewith that?
Stephanie Allen (09:06):
Yeah, I mean that that's such a real key
because I know in my own heart Igo, oh, okay, when can I just
rest?
When can, you know, when isthis?
It's gonna stop.
It's gonna stop soon.
Like all this change, it'sgonna stop.
And having that realizationthat I better get on board.
I better find some ways to dothis.
(09:27):
Because, you know, if if wedon't find ways, Jillian, if we
don't find ways to really managethese changes, what are the
outcomes?
And if we constantly keepputting, you know, like you
mentioned, like you keep lookingoutside ourselves for answers.
And if we continue to keepdoing that, what's going to
(09:48):
happen?
Jillian Reilly (09:48):
Right.
I think that's genuinely one ofthe biggest shifts that we're
being called to do to make rightnow.
And the challenge being that wewere not prepared for that.
And my sense of mission andpurpose around the book is a
little bit to contribute topreparing another generation to
do that, because, you know, Ithink as young people, as
(10:12):
children, we are actuallyencouraged to look around,
encouraged to look around andsay, may I, is it okay?
And understandably so.
I'm not suggesting that that'sa completely inappropriate
expectation, but I think in aworld where we have to decide
what's right for us, where thereare choices and consequences as
(10:32):
opposed to right and wrong, um,we need to prepare people to
feel more confident with, okay,I'm making this decision, and I
don't have the comfort ofpredictability on my side.
I have to step into it andtreat it as a process of
exploration and discovery ratherthan a process of executing on
(10:54):
a familiar equation.
So, you know, I talk a lotabout living in a world of
experiments rather thanequations, and what does that
make you feel?
Well, of course, it makes youfeel unsettled.
So yeah, I think we're w inthis in between right now, and
and I think younger people aregonna spend much more time,
(11:15):
obviously, in this world, and sothey won't necessarily feel
what we are, but I think we'regrieving a lot right now.
Mostly a familiar formula foryou know what I describe as 'if
then'.
If I do this, then it's gonnabe okay.
If I go to college, then I'llget a job.
If I work hard at my job, thenthey won't fire me.
(11:38):
None of these things are trueanymore.
So we don't have formulas, andI think that leaves us feeling
very insecure.
Maren Oslac (11:47):
Yeah, I oftentimes Stephanie and I will talk about
it of the unknown, becauseessentially what you're talking
about is living in that unknown,and we're not trained to live
in the unknown, we're trained toobey somebody else's or live
somebody else's way of doingthings.
(12:08):
And that's why one of thereasons that I love the book is
you come from this place of wewere given these permissions
from the outside world.
And what does it look like totake the permissions and own
them ourselves?
Yes, and give ourselvespermission to do things rather
(12:30):
than, and and I agree with you,it's not...
children do need to be learnedto ask permission, and then
where is that threshold where westop asking permission of the
outer world, recognizing andrespecting the rules while also
pushing the boundaries and andyou know finding that for
(12:54):
ourselves?
Jillian Reilly (12:55):
Yeah.
Maren Oslac (12:56):
So I love that.
If you could speak a little bitmore to maybe what do you find
is kind of that is, or maybe isthere, is there a magic place
where you can move from askingpermission from the world to
giving permission to yourself?
Jillian Reilly (13:18):
Yeah, I think as you just said, I mean there
are explicit rules that shapethe way that you know
communities interact, the waythat systems function.
And we all need to respectthose.
I think there are thenunderneath those a lot of
implicit and unwritten rules,which nobody's agreed on and
(13:41):
aren't written in stone, anddon't necessarily contribute to
the functioning of thecollective, but just have become
part of its way of operating.
And I think in a lot of cases,the you know, interpersonal
interactions, individual choice,we might have more room than we
(14:03):
ever even claim to makeindividual choice, but because
we are existing in these spaceswhere we believe there's an
implicit injunction againstthat, we don't even test it, we
don't even activate our ownagency to ask for it or act on
it.
I was talking to a teacher theother day who of university
(14:28):
students or college students,where her experiment was to
bring them into a room where thefurniture could move around,
and there were far fewerstudents than there were places,
so everybody scattered around,and she sort of said, you know,
and they were all disengaged andsort of in their own spaces.
And when she said to them, Uh,why don't you move this room
(14:52):
around to make it work for you?
And they were kind of like,well, can we?
And she was like, yeah, andthen they got up and looked, and
they saw that the furnitureactually had wheels on it, and
the sides flipped down, andeverything was actually far more
fluid than they'd had even goneto look for to notice.
(15:17):
And a few of them said, oh mygosh, I've been in this same
room for a really long time, andI never even looked.
And I thought, what a perfectmetaphor for how we enter into a
variety of things, whether it'srooms or relationships or
roles, where we kind of don'teven activate our sense of
choice and our options becausewe assume a sort of passive role
(15:42):
within that space.
And I think in many ways,again, we've been sort of
conditioned to believe thatthat's a sign of good manners,
that that's a sign of goodbehavior, that you don't impose
yourself.
But actually, it's justengaging and co-creating, and
you can do that with greatrespect to other people and
(16:03):
great respect to the community.
So, you know, I think in manyways we're moving out of a time
when that sort of obedience, ifyou will, was rewarded and
required to work within largesystems where you executed on a
set of commands and a set of youknow ways of working.
And now we're being called uponto be more entrepreneurial, to
(16:26):
be more creative, to self-lead.
And that's going to require avery different set of behaviors.
Stephanie Allen (16:33):
Yeah, I think we're definitely conditioned
from our childhood to askpermission, which again is a
very good thing.
And then we get, as we getolder, it's so pervasive that we
just default to not askingourselves permission, but
looking outside ourselves in theworld.
And I often use the example ofbreathing, of like inhaling and
(16:55):
exhaling.
We often, you know, one of thetrick questions I always say,
which is better, inhale toinhale or to exhale?
And yet we need both.
So there's nothing wrong withasking permission outside
yourself, but when do we startto ask ourselves inside
permission?
And how do we ask ourselvespermission?
In what I mean, how is like,are we even able to create space
(17:18):
within it to even say, oh, whatwould it be like if I asked
myself if I gave myselfpermission to receive right now,
or gave myself permission torest, or gave myself permission
to ask a question, what wouldthat be like?
How would that then you knowchange my world?
Jillian Reilly (17:36):
Right.
And you, Maren, you asked aboutan age, and I don't think
there's a golden cutoff, but youknow, I talk to 15-year-olds,
14, 15, 16-year-olds.
And when I say, you know, youare the authority in yourself by
virtue of being a human, youknow, you are your own
authority, you know you, you areyou.
It's like that's hugelytransgressive.
(18:00):
What?
You know, you have aself-knowledge, you have an
essential will that is yours.
And you know, I've had so manyteenagers come up to me
afterwards and be like, oh mygosh, nobody's ever said that to
me before.
So what would it take to beginto engage with teens?
(18:21):
And I do believe we could startearlier, but just start there,
who, you know, very soon willneed to navigate a world of
infinite choice and hugeresponsibility for self and
start to thoughtfully engagethem as you've just described,
Stephanie, and sort of, youknow, making some choices and
backing them and potentiallyfailing, potentially screwing
(18:45):
up, potentially getting lost,potentially getting hurt.
Okay, cool.
What I've seen, and you know,it's my generation of parents,
who've done exactly theopposite.
In the face of what theyperceive as a chaotic world,
they're doubling down ever moreon, you know, managing them.
And then we wonder why we havequote unquote snowflakes.
(19:07):
It's like because we're notpreparing them for the world,
and then we're sending them outin it with a very old playbook
that doesn't work, and thenwe're wondering why they feel
overwhelmed.
It's like because they're notprepared and we haven't prepared
them.
Maren Oslac (19:26):
I...gosh, there's there's actually so much that I
want to say.
One of the things that I heardyou say is there's a amount of
self-knowledge.
And we I think you know, whenwe think about starting with
teens, and I a lot of ourlisteners either have teens or
(19:47):
they work with teens.
And I have to come back tostarting with us because our
generation was not taught, mygeneration was not taught to
know ourselves.
And that's what I heard you sayis we weren't taught to know
ourselves.
And so we don't havenecessarily the skills to then
(20:10):
teach our children or theirchildren, you know, we've passed
that on through the generationsof don't know yourself, do what
you're told, you know, listen,don't be...
don't be listened, don't beloud, you know, listen, speak
when you're spoken to, and allof the things that I was raised
(20:30):
with.
And so that is something that Istruggle with is who am I and
what right do I have?
And so if I'm struggling withthat, and I'm passing that on to
the people that I come incontact with, it makes sense
that what you were saying ofwe're raising a generation of
(20:52):
children that are, like yousaid we are calling them
snowflakes, and they just don'thave the tools.
So I love what you're doing inbringing attention to it.
And I would encourage ourlisteners to not just look at it
from okay, we need to help thenext generation.
(21:13):
Oftentimes the best way we canhelp the next generation is by
addressing it inside ofourselves and looking inside of
ourselves for where is that truefor me?
Jillian Reilly (21:24):
Beautifully put, and I completely agree with
you.
You know, my work, my emergingwork is with parents.
I'm a parent, I have a 17 and a14-year-old.
It's tough, it's weird.
You know, you don't know whatto reward, you don't know what
to applaud.
I 've wrote a Substack postabout it just a few days ago.
(21:48):
It's like my kid comes homewith a good grade.
Am I supposed to be like...
yes?
Or kind of look at it and go,well, that's great.
I mean, that that's nice, ofcourse.
I'm pleased, but I'm under noillusions that it's a reflection
of a sort of fitness tosucceed.
I think we need to do our ownwork around the way that we are
(22:13):
straddling worlds and thereality that it makes us feel
out of control to step into away, a different way, and a sort
of not knowing, which you know,it genuinely feels very
fragile.
(22:34):
But if you can, for me, I kindof try and play around in some
of the lower consequencemoments, and I think that's
where we start around choicesthat are not, you know, what are
you gonna be when you grow up?
But, you know, what do you wantto eat?
And again, I know that there'sgonna be a whole group of people
(22:54):
who are like, oh, we've beenraising these young people to
decide if they want fish fingersevery day and what they want to
wear, and it's led to theseentitled young kids and yada,
yada, yada.
I think that especially whenwe're talking about teens, we
need to work out how to helpthem activate their agency, you
know, learn to take some risk,make decisions, deal with
(23:19):
consequences.
And all of this can be donewithin a realm that doesn't have
to feel like, you know, um,it's a radical departure from
any of the common sense valuesthat any parent would bring into
their household around, youknow, the kinds of respectful
and caring and thoughtful youngpeople we want to put out into
(23:39):
the world.
We are very afraid.
My generation of parents isvery afraid that the old
formulas for success don't workanymore, and we don't have a new
one, and we feel very lostbecause we can't hand them a
okay, honey, get straight A'sand go to a good college, and
(24:03):
then everything's gonna be fine,and I can sit back and relax.
We don't have it, and if wethink we do, and I think a lot
of parents do are doubling downon that right now because it's
all they've got, you know.
I think we're in for a realwake-up call very soon.
Maren Oslac (24:21):
Yeah, I know Stephanie and I have talked
about this before.
We both know teens that theywon't...
they refuse to make decisions.
Talking to a young woman, wentto dinner with her and her older
brother, who is in his 20s,she's in her teens and he's in
his 20s, and went out to dinnerand she kept asking him, what do
(24:47):
I want to, what do I want toeat?
And she wouldn't make adecision.
She's like, I trust him.
She trusted him to make thedecision for her.
She didn't trust herself.
He knows what I like.
What should I eat?
What should I over here?
You know, and Stephanie's had asimilar experience.
It it is hard for bothgenerations, all the I should
(25:13):
say, all the generations, right?
Because how do we step intothat agency?
And I love that what you hadsaid about it needs to be done
in ways that don't feel likethey're the end of the world.
So after I had dinner withthis, young woman, I kind of, if
(25:34):
I lived closer to her, I wouldbe doing this regularly of like
taking her to restaurants and belike, order everything, let's
order it.
Let's do it.
Like, let's do something, tohow do we start to move past
that freezing in the face of achoice because the future is
completely unknown.
(25:55):
We can't rely on what we usedto do, it's changing so quickly.
So we have to be able to, youknow, not live in the old fixed
mindset and really start toembrace that that curiosity that
you were talking about.
Jillian Reilly (26:12):
Yeah.
And you know, intentionalchoice is I think the term
superpower is overused, but I'mgonna use it again.
Because I truly believe that.
And my 30 years of working inchange taught me that.
Because when you come down tothe face of having to make or
manage change, as I said alittle while ago, you will be
(26:33):
making novel choices.
You're gonna be making newones, you're gonna be making
ones that maybe take you into aspace you haven't been in
before.
So you're gonna be like, oh mygosh, is this...
wow! Now, if you can't evenmake a routine choice, what do I
want to eat for lunch?
Then it when it comes time tomake a new one, which is okay,
(26:54):
you know, my what I studied todo is now obsolete.
I need to figure out how topivot all of my training to do
something else, you willliterally crumble in the face of
having to step into new spaces.
And I think a lot of for me,the book is about almost, you
(27:15):
know, I talk about kind ofpersonal change management as a
core skill that yeah, go out tolunch and literally like not
only make a choice, but forceyourself to make different ones.
Like, don't just always get acheeseburger if that's what you
always choose.
Like, be like, okay, today I'mgonna get a Caesar Salad and and
(27:38):
just experience that becauseStephanie, I think that comes
back to the discomfort of whatif I don't like it?
What if, you know, I don't knowwhat I'm doing with it?
And the more that you start tokind of, as I talk about in the
book, discern discomfort fromdanger, I'm okay, I might not
(28:00):
have felt good, but I'm stillhere.
And maybe I have more tolerancefor those moments, or at least
I can recognize them and knowthat I'm still safe.
Like those are just such keycapabilities.
And they are things that we canpractice.
They are a practice, they are,you know.
(28:20):
So I think that's sort of a lotof where I want to take the
conversation with the book isthat it's not about fixing
something that you perceive asbeing wrong in your life, it's
about developing a capability tocontinually navigate change and
make it in your life becauseyou're going to have to.
Stephanie Allen (28:39):
I think that's wonderful.
And even like the part of havegiving yourself permission to be
between, you know, like I thinkwe get very polarized.
It's like, well, if I do or ifI don't, you know, am I right or
am I wrong?
Am I good or am I bad?
Or what if I, you know, if Ireally mess up or I really fail?
And like you said, it's youknow, to discern between
discomfort and danger, that isso key.
(29:00):
It is so key because I think weput everything in the category
of danger.
Jillian (29:05):
Abpsolutely. Everything and everything ever more, ever
more.
I mean, I can't tell you howmany times that and I want to
bring it back to the kind ofparenting conversation where
parents now see the world asbeing fraught with danger.
It's just everything'sdangerous, everything's a
problem.
Like the the fear factor as itrelates to our and and when you
(29:27):
try and kind of have rationalconversations around it in terms
of okay, I know it might not begreat, and they might, you
know, end up hurt or lost, youknow, all the things that every
human probably should be at somepoint in their lives, but they
will come back from that a youknow, with a wider base of
(29:48):
experiences.
And that's what we aredepriving our kids of is this
kind of experience basedadaptability.
So the only way to gain this isto earn it.
It's not a passive knowledgethat you imbibe.
It's an earned capabilitythrough experiences that begin
to reward you.
(30:09):
So if we never allow them to dothose things, if we are...
if we're always watching, ifwe're always controlling, they
never earn those things.
And I think that's part of whatwe are seeing and what we are
experiencing right now.
I have big conversations withmy peers around tracking our
(30:29):
kids.
I'm one of like literally twopeople who don't.
And I mean, it raises a lot ofeyebrows.
And I'm just like, well, I needto train them to communicate
with me, to have good risk youknow, capabilities, to make
smart decisions.
If I'm playing big brother allthe time, you know, it shifts
(30:52):
the dynamic.
Stephanie Allen (30:53):
Well, it's ultimately sharing that you
don't trust them.
So, you know, when we'reconstantly hovering or
constantly tracking somebody, iterodes that self-confidence and
that self-reflection to say,well, and I see this all the
time instead of just saying,hey, look, I trust you.
And you know what?
You're gonna make mistakes, andwe all do, and I'm right here
(31:15):
for you.
I got your back.
Jillian Reilly (31:17):
Right.
That's right.
Stephanie Allen (31:18):
If we can start to create that space for them,
hopefully they'll start tocreate that space within
themselves to then go, okay, youknow, to self-reflect within
themselves.
Jillian Reilly (31:28):
Yeah, that self-awareness, Maren, again,
that sort of knowledge of self.
And, you know, then you get,well, the world's a so much more
dangerous place.
I'm like, okay, I'm notentirely convinced that
statistically it is.
But let me tell you what, as ayoung woman who left St.
Louis, Missouri, went toChicago, started riding on the
L, you know, was surrounded byevery nature of human who had
(31:52):
experiences that if my parentshad known about them, they would
have been shocked andhorrified, you know.
But that's what you did.
And by doing that, you, youknow, gained that muscle, you
gained that capability.
So if you're never allowed todo that, then as you've just
described, Stephanie, how do youdevelop that self-trust?
How do you get that confidenceof I'm okay, I'm okay?
(32:16):
It's a really interestingmoment where we, I think, are
struggling a little bit toconfidently allow both ourselves
and our young people to moveinto an unknown, trusting
ourselves and allowing ourselvesto surrender a little bit to
(32:40):
the realities of what we'redealing with.
Maren Oslac (32:44):
So if as our our listeners are listening, I know
that they're probably leaned inlike, yes, this describes my
life, or possibly because Idon't have children.
And what I'm hearing you say,it actually's happening inside
(33:06):
of me.
Like I'm experiencing that.
And so as I'm listening to you,I'm thinking, okay, where can I
give myself permission to dosome to move outside of my own
comfort zone, out of what I'vebeen trained to believe?
Um, so my question would be ifour listeners are looking for
(33:29):
something either for themselvesor possibly for their children,
or you know, a lot of we have alot of teachers that listen to
us.
So is there something that theycan be doing, something very
practical that they can startdoing today or tomorrow to
actually start to open that thatdoorway of curiosity and close,
(33:52):
start to close the the doorwayof fear, I would say.
Jillian Reilly (33:56):
Yeah, yeah, and that's a beautiful way to put
it because I do believe thatcuriosity is an antidote to
fear, and then the action thatwill arise from curiosity,
because I don't see curiosity asa passive state, I see it as an
a green light to go looking, agreen light to new experience, a
(34:17):
green light to new knowledge.
So, you know, that's a greatplace to start.
And, you know, one of thethings I talk about a lot is...
your weekends.
I call them like permissionsplaygrounds because the time is
yours.
It's easy during the week tofeel subject to, you know, sets
of responsibilities andauthorities outside of you.
(34:38):
The weekend is a space whereyou have choice, and yet we can
often get into our sort ofdefault operating mode and not
come alive to that choice andand not come alive to the
patterns that are fully withinour own capability to repattern.
So, you know, enacting thatsort of repatterning on a
(35:01):
weekend might feel a little bitless risky than it will in other
realms of your life.
And again, that can be apleasurable experience.
You can start to exercise thatagency by what you decide to do
on a Saturday afternoon when thequestion, the curiosity, as
you've already pointed out,first turns into self.
(35:24):
What do I want?
What do I feel like?
You know, what is piquing myinterest right now?
What is my body telling me itneeds?
Then being willing to respondto that, just even if it's a
small thing, it doesn't have tobe a massive undertaking.
Maren Oslac (35:43):
But I think getting into that cycle, being willing
to be wrong, like, oh, whoops, Ididn't quite get that correct.
Because I...
oftentimes what we'll end updoing is being like, well, that
didn't work for me.
And so then I just shut thatwhole thing down instead of
(36:03):
being like, okay, that didn'twork.
Part of the reason is because Ihaven't been trained to know
myself.
Jillian Reilly (36:10):
Right...right.
Maren Oslac (36:10):
We assume that we know ourselves.
We haven't been trained to knowourselves, and so we try a
little bit and then we hold backbecause we're like, oh, that
wasn't right.
I'm so bad, you know, like andthen the...
Stephanie has something shelikes to call the itty bitty
shitty committee, which is thethe internal...
Stephanie Allen (36:29):
...to give yourself permission to like turn
off the itty bitty shittycommittee.
It's like give yourselfpermission instead to go play
and learn in self-discovery.
Maren Oslac (36:37):
And be like, okay, that was completely wrong.
Like you said earlier, like,okay, I ordered the salad.
I always order the hamburgerand I ordered the salad instead,
and I really don't like it.
That's okay.
Jillian Reilly (36:49):
That's okay.
Stephanie Allen (36:50):
It didn't blow up the world.
Jillian Reilly (36:52):
It didn't blow up the world.
Well, I think Stephanie, youtalked about yeah, I obviously
talked about like binaries ofright and wrong.
And I think that for me is agood example where it's not
we're not here to kind of landon a new formula or to find the
right answer.
We're here to extend our baseof experience.
(37:14):
And by extending the base ofexperience, you open new things
up.
Stephanie Allen (37:18):
Yeah, sorry, go ahead.
No, just to open one's mind,open one's heart, open one's
willingness to like explore andbe a human being.
I just think we're so stuck.
And I often will say, you know,what is the worst thing that'll
happen?
Like seriously, if I make thischoice, what is the worst thing?
Well, I might feel a littleuncomfortable.
I mean, really, that's probablythe worst thing is like I might
(37:39):
be a little uncomfortable, butthat little uncomfortability
actually might be, oh my God, itmight be actually amazing.
Like it leads me to an all-orif it doesn't lead me to a whole
new wonderful experience, thenI've learned something.
I'm like, okay, ike Maren wassaying, it's like, okay, I don't
really want to have that, I'mnot gonna make that same choice
again.
I'm gonna choose somethingdifferent next time.
(37:59):
Or...
or I'm going to speak up andask for more directions or
more details so that I canreally understand if this is
really aligned with my with myvalues, with my needs, with my
longings.
And I don't know, I think wethink too much.
Jillian Reilly (38:17):
And experience too little.
You know, I I was talking to aneuroscientist the other day
about permissions, and she wastalking about experience-driven
neuroplasticity, which isessentially what you just said.
You know, the more youexperience, the more you train
your brain to be more adaptive,more plastic, because you are
(38:40):
basically feeding it with moreand more data through which to
draw from when it comes time tomake each and every choice.
You're you're expanding yourdata points for your brain to
work with.
And, you know, I've it'ssomething that I've been playing
around with for a long timebecause my own experience of
leaving, you know, the comfortof home and heading out into the
(39:02):
world was like one giantexperience-driven
neuroplasticity experiment.
Um, so if you were just to,with curiosity and care, treat
every single experience as goodsimply because it is like
feeding you with new data.
And you don't need to decide ifit is your thing or not.
(39:28):
You don't need to categorize itinto a you know binary bucket
of this is right or wrong.
It just has to be moreexperience, in which point you
walk away, you pay the bill, youwalk away and go, okay, that
was interesting, moving rightalong.
Um, and then the more you doit, the more you get the reward
(39:49):
of kind of realizing that, oh,it's fine if I didn't like the
movie.
Or I didn't, that that day tripwasn't everything that I hoped
it would be, but what the heck,I got out.
So I think there's a you know,the the benefit of experience
starts to evidence itself in youthe more that you you know move
(40:14):
out of your head and into theworld and out of your head and
into your body.
Um but that's a practice, it itdoesn't happen magically.
Stephanie Allen (40:24):
And the more you do it, the more it becomes
natural.
Jillian Reilly (40:28):
Like everything.
Stephanie Allen (40:29):
Yeah.
Jillian Reilly (40:30):
Like everything.
And I I think, you know, I inall of my work with change, it
was so often, you know, as Ireferenced a few minutes ago,
here's a problem, let's fix it.
And I'm like, no, because thatjust puts you into a certain way
of corrective thinking, whichrarely, to my mind, opens you up
(40:51):
to creative possibility.
And what I'm playing aroundwith is more of developing a
sort of fitness, a sort ofmuscle for trying things, for
allowing yourself to develop agreater um range, a ranginess
(41:13):
that will allow you to bringthings in and not be so afraid,
allow you to gain moreself-awareness and confidence.
And that has nothing to do withfixing a problem.
That has everything to do withfinding out what you're capable
of.
And I don't think most of ushave any clue what we're capable
of because we never even try,we never even get close.
Maren Oslac (41:38):
Yeah.
You know, Einstein said that inimagination is more important
than knowledge.
And whenever I think aboutthat, here's one of the greatest
minds of our century.
And he says imagination is moreimportant than knowledge.
And we have as a society haveidealized knowledge, which is
(41:59):
very fixed.
And when you try and fixsomething, whether it's making
it permanent or trying to fix aproblem, imagination gets tossed
out the window.
Yeah.
So the creativity comes fromcuriosity, it comes from not
trying to make or fix somethingas if there was a problem.
(42:23):
So we really do need to getbeyond the binary right wrong in
order to open possibility.
And I love the permissions thatyou talk about in the book
because one of the things that Ifound for myself is that they
are their tools for us to use tomove past that binary thinking,
(42:45):
the right, wrong thinking, andopen possibility in our lives,
in our children's lives, in ourstudents' lives, and you know,
in society in general.
And what an antidote that wouldbe for every place, all the
things that are going on for usin our world right now.
Jillian Reilly (43:04):
Yeah, thank you.
I mean, I love that tools formoving beyond the binary because
it is, I do think that's whatpermission is.
I think we are so conditionedwith right and wrong, so
conditioned with good or bad, soafraid of being wrong, so
afraid of being bad, becausethose are things that are
legacies of how most of us havebeen brought up.
(43:27):
Um and again, we we're notsupported to shift that.
Instead, we're then movedthrough academic systems that
are all about right or wronganswers, that are all about
knowing, that have almostnothing to do with imagination,
because those are just for likethe RD students.
So, you know, I think I thinkwe're in this interesting moment
(43:48):
where suddenly knowledge, youknow, is not as valuable as it
was a little while ago.
You know, we're on the cusp ofa super interesting moment where
that knowledge that, as yousay, we've treated as the gold
standard is now at everybody'sfingertips.
So what are we gonna do now?
Is it an opportunity for us tostep into imagination like never
(44:11):
before?
I'm sort of hoping it is.
Stephanie Allen (44:14):
I love that.
I hope it is too.
I hope it is too.
Yeah, it's time to move inwardand to listen to the voices
inside that are holding youback, that are keeping you
limited or small and discoveringthe potential and the
possibilities that are reallyalready within you.
Jillian Reilly (44:30):
Well, and some of what I'm saying is, gosh, you
know, we've been delivered thismoment where I'm not sure,
Stephanie, that we have a choiceanymore but to do that.
So, you know, when I talk aboutthe book, I say, well, when I
started to write it, the thosetools, this approach felt
somewhat aspirational.
Wouldn't it be nice?
(44:51):
Now it's like, I'm sorry, it'sstrategic.
You have to, because so much ofthat sort of, you know, what I
describe as putting on a suitand sleepwalking, stepping into
ready-made roles and allowingthem to shape your choices, your
behaviors, your trajectory,it's disappearing.
(45:11):
And without thatself-knowledge, without that
sense of curiosity andimagination, I'm afraid there's
going to be many, many peoplewho simply will be left behind
because they're unwilling totake the permission that this
moment is giving us to say,okay, um, maybe it's your
(45:32):
opportunity to be more human.
Are you willing?
Are you allowed?
Maren Oslac (45:38):
Yeah, I love that.
And I think that there arealready people that are feeling
left behind.
Jillian Reilly (45:46):
Absolutely.
And I see them all the time.
Maren Oslac (45:50):
So if you would, um, I would love to, you know,
I'm sure there are a lot ofpeople who are wondering where
they can find your book, wherethey can find out more about
you, because we haven't gotteninto Jillian's story, but her
story is fascinating.
So um, your book has some ofthat story in it.
I would love for you, if youwould be willing, to share where
(46:12):
to find the book and how toreach you if people are
interested in finding out more.
Jillian Reilly (46:17):
Yeah, so my website's a good sort of
stopping place to find out allthings 10 permissions, um,
10permissions.com.
You can order the book there.
It's available now on Amazonand Barnes and Noble and a few
other digital um onlinebooksellers.
Um in terms of reaching out tome, I just you know would really
(46:41):
want to encourage it.
I mean, I feel so, you know,there's the book, which is for
individuals and their ownindividual journey as we've been
talking about, but there'sanother piece of this for me,
which is wanting to kind of umcreate and facilitate community
because we're we don't have todo all this on our own, and yet
(47:06):
we are.
There's so many people, as yousaid, feeling left behind,
feeling lost, feeling like theirlife doesn't look the way it's
supposed to, but they're notsure how to make it look the way
they want it to or the way it'ssupposed to.
And I would say that's everyonefrom 21 to 41 to 61 kind of
sitting there going, but butwait.
(47:28):
Um, and I, you know, I say inthe book, this is about
individual permissions, but it'sabout social permission to
accept the fact that we need tooperate differently in a world
that is requiring us to, youknow, be so much more fluid and
adaptive, and that helps to doit with other people.
(47:49):
It helps to feel like you'renot the only one sitting at your
computer, sort of going, Oh mygosh, I'm just you know, I don't
know what's right, I don't knowwhat's wrong, I don't know
which path to take, I don't knowhow to be a parent, I don't
know how to, you know, be a goodleader, all these things where
I think people are really sortof um racked with self-doubt.
(48:14):
Like it's okay.
You can find other people whoare asking themselves the same
questions and maybe in thosespaces begin to support each
other to come into self and toshare with each other.
Stephanie Allen (48:29):
It gives hope, doesn't it?
You know, I think we can becomevery hopeless and helpless, and
that's you know, to when we docome together and we start to
delve in and giving ourselvespermission, having those
practices, and then being withothers who not only are living
it, but hold that space for usto live it too.
(48:49):
That's hope.
Jillian Reilly (48:51):
Yes, it is, and my goodness, do we need it?
Because I mean, you've read thebook.
I started off with saying, youknow, cynicism and despair have
kind of become a currency rightnow, and I think that's highly
problematic because it limitsour sense of agency.
We begin to believe that wedon't have choices, or at least
(49:12):
not any ones that are good, andI don't believe that I'm not
willing to buy it, I won't buyit for myself, I won't buy it
for my sons.
I won't, and I'm not gonnabelieve that they're going out
into a world that is doomed tokind of disappoint them.
So the only way for them to tapinto that, the only way for me
(49:33):
to tap into it is with hope.
Stephanie Allen (49:35):
Yes, yes, I think coming back to the
teenager style again is I, youknow, when I think of my my
family teenagers, I think aboutmyself as a teenager.
It's either I don't want to,you can't make me, and I'm you
know, I'm gonna do my own thinganyway, or why bother?
What's what's the point?
And so when we have hope and wehave that practice of learning
(49:59):
how to give ourselvespermission, the teenager in
ourselves as well as in our ourcurrency, our current, you know,
um society is now has a spaceto really drop in and choose a
whole new paradigm, which willunfold a whole new world, which
is what we're needing because wedon't know what it's gonna look
(50:19):
like.
We need to like drop in andcreate something that is going
to be nourishing and beautifuland hopeful.
Jillian Reilly (50:27):
Yeah, and I love that dropping in and
creating that.
And what if we were to believethat they actually could, that
they will, and all we need to dois make space for them.
I love it, you know, instead ofthis sort of like sitting
staring at our phones hopingthat you know they don't get,
it's like why what what if wewere to believe that they were
(50:50):
unbelievably powerful and theywere, you know, had such
limitless potential instead ofoh my gosh, if I don't find the
safest container for them, theywill, you know, be wrecked by
this world.
It's like I often over the pasttwo years, as I've written this
book and as I'm now bringing itout into the world, and I get
(51:13):
this sort of like I think asyou're talking about, go back to
your teenage self, go back tothat young woman who got on a
plane to South Africa, whodidn't have a clue what she was
stepping into, but was willingto do that.
So, you know, I'll say tomyself now, buckle up, Jill, you
can do it.
She did it, you can do it.
You know, there's so muchbeauty in that youthful
(51:37):
willingness to go out andexplore.
And I think we would doourselves and the next
generation a great favor byletting them do it more.
Maren Oslac (51:45):
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much becausefor me, this has been a
conversation about hope frombeginning to end and holding
space for the potential of afuture for all of us that is
much greater than, you know,what I think a lot of us are
(52:06):
seeing.
So I just want to thank you somuch for being with us today and
sharing your vision and yourplatform for allowing that to
happen, for helping to make thathappen.
Jillian Reilly (52:21):
And right back at you.
You know, it's such an honorand a privilege for me to come
into the lives of other peoplewho have their own platforms
that are you know putting ideasand emotions and beliefs into
the world that help each one ofus, whether we're listening to
this driving somewhere or youknow, sitting in a comfortable
(52:44):
chair to believe, to be remindedof who's in the world right
now, making their way, findingtheir way, bringing their best
contribution out there.
And I think you guys are abeautiful example of that.
So thank you for the invitationto join your conversation.
Maren Oslac (53:01):
Thank you so much.
And as a reminder to all of ourlisteners, the show notes will
have links to the book.
And you can find us at www.TheSoulful Leader Podcast.com or on
our project page, whichhttps://tslp.life.
(53:22):
And we will see you all in twoweeks.
Thanks for joining us.
Stephanie Allen (53:35):
And that wraps up another episode of The
Soulful Leader Podcast with yourhosts, Stephanie Allen,
Maren Os (53:43):
and Maren Oslac. Thank you for listening.
If you'd like to dive deeper,head over to our website at the
www.TheSoulfulLeaderPodcast.com.
Until next time.
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