November 11, 2024 • 50 mins
Unlock the secrets to having meaningful and effective conversations about sexuality with neurodivergent children in this enlightening episode. Join me as I sit down with Amy Lang, a celebrated sexuality educator with a focus on neurodiversity. Amy shares her inspiring journey from general sex education to a specialized focus, which was driven by her personal experiences and the glaring lack of resources for neurodivergent families. Together, we address the intricacies and unique challenges of discussing sexual health with neurodivergent kids, emphasizing the importance of using proper anatomical terms and fostering open, honest dialogue to ensure a safe and informed environment for young minds.
We navigate the critical role parents play in supporting their children's exploration of sexuality. From understanding teenage sexuality to preparing children for sexual health responsibilities, we provide a toolkit for parents to engage in these essential conversations, encouraging a sex-positive perspective and nurturing stronger family bonds.
This episode also tackles the tough subjects of STIs, pregnancy, and pornography, especially in the context of neurodivergent and disabled individuals. Learn effective communication strategies to address these sensitive topics, while empowering your children with the knowledge they need to navigate their social environments safely. With resources like Amy's book "Sex Talks with Tweens", parents will be better equipped to maintain open lines of communication and guide their children toward a healthy understanding of sexuality. Don't miss this opportunity to enrich your parenting arsenal with expert advice from Amy Lang.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Special Parent Podcast.
I'm Dr Deanna Iverson, a proudmom of three boys and two
incredible kids with specialneeds.
I'm here to remind you thatyou're not alone on this journey
.
Whether you're navigating thehighs, the lows or those moments
in between, this podcast isyour weekly dose of hope, help
and heartfelt guidance.
(00:20):
Together, we'll celebrate thevictories, tackle the challenges
and connect with a communitythat truly understands.
So grab your favorite cup ofcoffee or tea, settle in and
let's embark on this empoweringjourney together.
You've got this.
Welcome everyone to the SpecialParent Podcast.
(00:43):
I'm Dr Deanna Iverson and I'mvery excited to have with me a
guest today.
This is Amy Lang, and Amy Langis a parent, but, most
importantly, she's a sexualityeducator and she specializes in
neurodivergent children.
So, amy, thank you so much forjoining me.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Welcome, my pleasure.
Thanks for having me on.
I'm excited to talk with youand I always learn something
from my people I'm working withon podcasts, so I'm excited to
get to know you and share myinfo with your people.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Oh, and I'm really excited about this too.
I can't wait to hear what youhave to tell us.
But first and foremost, how didyou get started in this area
the sexuality education,specialization of neurodiversity
how did that get started foryou?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Well, I had been a sex educator for throughout all
my twenties and into my thirties, and I was doing the usual
stuff, you know birth control,pregnancy counseling, sti
counseling loved it and hadassumed that I was going to be
spectacular when I had a kid andthat nothing would phase me and
it would just be really easy.
And I was really wrong.
Um, I, when Milo he's he's 23now uh, it was about five he was
(01:50):
getting ready for a bath and hegrabbed his penis and I thought
he was going to tell me it feltgood to touch it and I was just
like, don't tell me that,please don't tell me that in my
head.
And then I, I, anyway.
So that was my moment where Ithought, okay, this is not how
this should be and you need tofigure it out.
So I started doing a bunch ofresearch to figure out how to
talk with kids about sex.
(02:11):
And then, um, the other part ofmy background is, I have a
master's degree in appliedbehavioral science and my focus
was in adult education.
So, as I'm figuring this outfor our family, I realized that
I could help other adults and soI started birds and bees and
kids.
And um, as you can imagine.
Um, milo was completelymortified by my work for his
entire life.
He's better now.
(02:31):
He's better now, um so.
So I've been working withneurotypical parents and
neurodivergent parents all along.
I'm not neurodivergent, miloisn't.
My spouse, carrie, has dyslexia, which I did not know was
neurodivergence, and when Ilearned that I was like, oh,
this explains so many thingsabout you.
Um and so in the last couple ofyears when I do individual
(02:56):
consultations, I people wouldjust drop in oh, my kid is
autistic, adhd-er.
And then I was like, okay,what's happening?
So I started asking at the top,any neurodivergence in the
family and I kept getting yeses,like I would say like almost
two, I'm guessing like twothirds, that's a good number and
(03:18):
I thought, okay, well, y'allseem to need some help, let me
see what I can find.
And I couldn't find anything forpeople who were parenting
neurodivergent kids between thelike from preschool to middle
school, which is my sweet spotwith neurotypical kids.
So I was like, okay, I could, Icould do this.
So I got a certification inneurodiversity and sexuality and
disability, actually from MercyCollege, and so I have been
(03:41):
putting that to work and workingwith neurodivergent families,
working with, like withinschools that have neurodivergent
kids, and I also work withprofessionals and do sexual
abuse prevention training andteach about sexual behavior in
children.
So I have been able to add thison and, honestly, I was ready
for something new and so I justalways feel good about helping
(04:05):
parents, but helping parentswith neurodivergent kids or kids
who are disabled or withdisabilities has, just frankly,
it's just so much more rewardingbecause it's so important and
they feel better, right, likeeverybody feels better, but
double feel better.
So, anyway, so that's how I gotmy start and here we are.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Yeah, here we are.
I'm so glad you were able tojoin me.
And here we are.
Yeah, here we are.
I'm so glad you were able tojoin me, and for me, as a parent
of children that areneurodiverse, it's been such a
roller coaster ride, and that'swhy, when I was starting to
research for myself because Ihave boys and I know it's not
mostly boys, but it feels likeit sometimes that it's just
(04:42):
there's a lot more going on withboys and that sexuality piece a
lot of times, and I just wastrying to figure out how to help
my kid and it was really,really challenging because
there's not a lot out there andwe've we've done some things,
and then, of course, some thingshave completely flopped and
failed, and so that's why, whenI ran across you, I was like, oh
(05:03):
my gosh, this is amazing.
And so, like we talked about,you know, special needs and the
birds and the bees is a littlebit different than just talking
the birds and the bees ingeneral.
So I love the fact that we'regoing to have this conversation.
So I want to tell you a littlebit about why was I researching
this.
Why was I coming across this?
So it was several years ago.
(05:24):
Um, but my son, when he was andI don't remember if it's exactly
around eight, but I want to saybetween seven and eight um, we
had gotten them, the thesetablets, and they were Amazon
tablets, not anything againstAmazon, I'm a proud Amazon
purchaser.
We had gotten the Amazontablets for kids and they had um
(05:46):
kids tube.
You know, it's not YouTube,it's kids tube and so it's
supposed to be a little bit moreprotectant.
In addition to that, we hadadded all I think it was bark is
one of the ones that we hadused and we've used other ones,
and we we've put on all thesechecks and balances in places
and we'd look at our kids'tablets every once in a while,
etc.
So we thought we were good.
(06:09):
And my kids are using theirtablets and my son is special
needs in a lot of differentareas, but he also has a lower
cognition level.
So for him, just basic internetsearches weren't happening,
because he can't really spellwords yet or anything.
Searches weren't happeningbecause he can't really spell
words yet or anything.
So I think I also had a falsesense of security that he also
wouldn't discover sexual content, because he didn't even know
(06:31):
how to spell it, even if hecould say it yet and I learned
my lesson.
So what I found out was when wediscovered that he had been
exposed to pornography on histablet.
With all the checks andbalances in place, it was about
four clicks, because you knowhow when you're on the tablet,
you can use the back button.
It was four clicks backwardsfrom the pornography to the kids
(06:55):
video he was watching.
So it was clickbait on the side, the side panel clickbait.
Yeah, yeah, terrible.
And I was just shocked.
I didn't think it was apossibility with all the stuff
that we had put in place.
And ever since that day, my sonhas an addiction to pornography.
So sorry, we have fought thisbattle and it's been years.
(07:17):
We're six, seven years fightingthis battle and he doesn't
understand as much as we'veattempted to explain it and done
all the things.
He doesn't understand why thisis not healthy for him and I've
tried so hard and we've tried.
You know we have not gone toshaming.
We don't believe in that.
My husband and I are not intoshaming.
(07:39):
This is not something to beashamed of.
I mean, heck pornography is outthere because it's used a lot,
but it's not that I'm going tobe ashamed about.
However, he doesn't understandwhy he should even try to fight
it, right, and so that's part ofit.
I would say that's the biggerpart of the battle we're
fighting with him is why do Ieven need to fight?
This is kind of his question.
(08:00):
So I was researching and I cameupon you and I just I can't
wait to hear what you have tosay.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Oh man, I'm so sorry that happened to you and I think
that you're just like everyother parent, right?
You do all the things and thenyou just can't imagine that that
kid's YouTube, youtube is notsafe ever.
I'm in the end.
It's just not, it's not, it'snot's not, and you know it, and
so that happening is such.
I mean, it's not a surprise tome, and you know bark and
(08:30):
custodio, they're not perfect,right, and they're good.
It's a good start.
It's just better than nothing,right, better than nothing,
right.
Nothing is a much biggerproblem because you can get to
way worse stuff than you know.
Maybe your kid initially saw.
But yeah, and not shaming,because it's not their fault,
(08:53):
right, even if they're seekingit out.
It's not their fault thatthey're curious.
It's not that their fault,their fault that their friends
are talking about it.
It's not their fault that theirparents aren't talking with
them about sex, like.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
None of that's their fault Not to be shaming Right,
exactly, and I, honestly, wethis is my, one of my sons, and
I didn't think he was readycognitively to have too much of
a conversation.
He knew some basics.
We'd said the word sex beforewe talked about private parts.
(09:25):
I mean, I think most everyonetouches on that by the time
they're seven, eight years old,just because we're afraid of
what's out there.
We've talked about that kind ofstuff but I hadn't really gone
into at all what pornography wasor anything, because I did not
expect him to need thatconversation.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Of course not.
Of course not.
Especially that child of yours,right, who isn't operating on
this.
You know he's got stuff goingon that doesn't put him in the
same.
You know he's not a typicaleight year old, right?
Or it wasn't a typical nineyear old or 12 year old, so that
just makes things morecomplicated.
And but it doesn't mean justbecause your child is
(10:01):
neurodivergent and whatever thatlooks like, um, or
developmentally different, itdoesn't mean you don't talk with
them about this part of life.
Because they are sexual beings,they will have sexual feelings
Pretty much everybody does andsex and relationships is one of
the biggest things we do in ourlives.
It's with us from birth untildeath.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yeah, and it's supposed to be a rewarding part
of our lives.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
I mean, it's intended to be the celebration dance,
it's supposed to be fun, right,and unfortunately it's
incredibly confusing, right,right.
And so, you know, one of myphilosophies is that our
children have a human right tobe prepared, as prepared as they
can be for this part of life,and that's on us, right, it's on
us, right.
(10:43):
I mean, we don't do anythingbigger than this or more
complicated than this in ourlives the romantic relationships
, sexual relationships therereally isn't anything much
bigger and that can have, like,it's physical, it's social, it's
emotional, right, it's all theparts, it's all the things,
right, you know, calculus isintellectual, I'm in the end.
(11:03):
And then who uses calculus?
I don't even know what it is.
Trigonometry, don't ask, butlike, like, finding a way to
make this a priority in ourparenting can be hard because of
our personal histories, becauseof where kids are wired right,
because of our culture.
(11:25):
You know, maybe you're, maybeyou're someone who's in a
religious culture where it'sabsolutely not allowed to talk
about, like there's so manyplaces, but at the end of the
day, this is about health andsafety and that is our only job
to keep our kids healthy andsafe.
So all that to say, one of mythings, is that this doesn't
have to be so hard, it can bereally fun and funny.
(11:47):
I mean, there are just so manystories and talking about it.
Even if your child doesn'tquite get it, you still have to
talk about it because you'redoing due diligence, right.
You need to do everything youcan to make sure your child is
safe.
So, or you know, or has thisinformation, so I just want to
(12:08):
put that out there.
And then what are you thinking?
Speaker 1 (12:26):
on who we are.
It's that social, emotional,all those pieces.
So, as a parent, that can comeacross as pretty overwhelming
I'm supposed to not onlydiscipline my child, make sure
they are behaved well when we goto the restaurant, I'm supposed
to do all these other thingsbut above all of that, the
health and safety and our sexualhealth is important to us as
human beings.
And so how do we help?
What's the first steps?
Let's say, let's just startwith almost age group, let's
(12:49):
start with in the beginning,when they're young.
How do we have the conversationwith our younger kids,
regardless or taking intoconsideration the fact that
maybe younger, it's more mentalage than physical age?
How do we have thatconversation?
Speaker 2 (13:06):
with them.
So the first conversation isusing correct names for their
private body parts.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
I mean penises, vulvas, vaginas, testicles,
butts, anuses, mouths, are alsoa private part, just like using
but the down there parts, usingthose correct words.
What happens is is that takesaway the mystery.
So when we say front, bottom,back bottom, tallywhacker,
tinkle, waggle, my favorite,it's confusing, right.
(13:33):
And it also says there'ssomething special or different
down there, like this is not mysmeller, right, it's my nose.
And for, you know, kids who areautistic and neurodivergent,
lots of you just got to bestraight like black and white
thinkers.
They don't understand aeuphemism.
So if you say hey, my, you know, hey, how's your taco today,
(13:54):
I'm just kind of how's your taco?
Is your taco itching?
And you've got a person with avulva, they're going to be like
itching taco what the hell,right?
They're a middle schooler andthey're.
And someone's talking about, oh, that, that girl's taco.
They're going to be likevegetarian or ground beef, right
, they're not going to catch theslang, right?
(14:16):
And so that's the very, veryfirst conversation is using the
correct names for private bodyparts.
And the other reason for thatis that it's protective, because
folks who mess with kids theywant them to be clueless.
So if your child says, likeThanksgiving is coming up, right
.
If your child's at the dinnertable and they're like God, my
penis itches, the whole room'sgoing to freeze, right.
(14:39):
But if there's a person therewho's a predator, they hear your
kid say penis.
They're going to be like allright, someone's talking to that
child, yep.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
That's true.
It does take a lot of that likehe takes that away from it and
it makes it a conversationthat's actually okay to have.
Which is part of it is thereason we're talking about it is
we want our kids to talk backwith us about it, and if we act
like it's easy, then they'regoing to run away and talk to
their friends about it first,Right?
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Right, so the friends might be accurate, like we all
had friends who were accurateand then we all had friends who
were not so accurate.
So they're going to find theinformation and, like you just
pointed out, they're going tofind it online.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yep, right, and online doesn't find it online,
and online doesn't use theterminology.
Oh no, it's way worse.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Yeah, it's way worse.
So, talking about that, talkingabout different kinds of
families, talking about how,literally, how babies are made,
right, the penis goes usually,right, penis goes in the vagina,
always takes a sperm and an eggand talking about how they came
to be and and talking about howthey came to be, and there's
lots of really good books whichare, you know, good for some
(15:51):
kids, not so good for other kids.
There's a great website calledamazeorg that has videos on
everything you can possiblythink of and they're kid
friendly, they're cartoons andso, using, like with
neurodivergent kids, you need touse a lot of different
techniques, right.
A lot of different ways, likedifferent learning styles, right
.
So making sure they understandthat and that this is a
conversation you do have in yourfamily and you need to say we
(16:12):
can talk about anything you want.
I will answer you honestly,right?
If you have questions, come tome.
If you're curious aboutsomething, come to me.
And then one of the biggestmyths out there in the sex
talking land is that if yourchild no, my child told me he'd
rather talk to strangers than meor his dad, it was great.
(16:34):
He also told me he would neverask me a question.
Not on this topic, mom, I meanreally not on anything, actually
None of this tight-lipped humanbeing.
So just remembering like thisis your responsibility, and even
if you are uncomfortable,that's okay.
All you do is you say I'muncomfortable, right, nobody
talked to me about this, I'mgoing to be weird, right?
Speaker 1 (16:58):
And, like you said, say I'm uncomfortable, even if I
would even say as a parent,even if you said to your kid
like, okay, we do need to havethis discussion and mom's a
little uncomfortable becausethis is my first time having
this, with discussion with you,and that when kids know that
we're more human emotionally, Ithink they accept and roll with
(17:18):
that better too.
You know that makes them morerelaxed because, oh, if mom's
uncomfortable, then it's okaythat I'm uncomfortable.
Yeah, exactly, so I can be partof the discussion.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah, or just say this is going to be weird for
both of us.
Here we go.
You need to know, right, youneed to know.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
I like it.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
No, and you know, and some kids, um, you know, depend
on wiring and just personalityreally could be really
uncomfortable with this.
Lots of times neurodivergentkids really struggle with the
changes of the body throughpuberty, um, or just you know.
The other piece, too, is likelots of kids are like this or
like I don't I'm never doingthat, so I don't need to have
this information Really commonand it's like, well, say that
(17:58):
now, which you can't really saybecause it's condescending, but
it's like, yeah, I get it.
But one of the things thatoften resonates with kids is if
you say you know what?
It is really cool to be thesmartest kid in your friend
group about this.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I like that right.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I like that right they do they might not care.
It doesn't resonate with everychild, but they might not care,
and for you as a parent, it isreally cool to be the smartest
parent in your, in your friendgroup about this.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
It's great, cause I remember a lot of times when I
would you know, say to parentsoh yeah, we've talked to, you
know so-and-so about it.
One of our sons and you havealready.
Oh yeah, yeah.
And then, especially after whathappened with my, my middle son
, I would say yes, because thishappened, and I would have
parents be like, oh well, didyou try this app or that app?
That would have.
(18:41):
And I'm like, no, you're notunderstanding what I'm saying.
There is only a level ofprotection with all of this out
there.
So we have to have theconversation because that is the
top level of protection, right,the information Right.
So with kids that have like alower, they're developmentally
delayed, maybe they have like alower cog issues going on.
(19:02):
What would you say are someways?
Obviously still use the rightvocabulary and language.
What would you say are some ofthe ways that we need to do?
For example, maybe morefrequent conversations or, like
you mentioned that one website.
It's probably pretty helpfulbecause it's done cartoon-like.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah, so more frequent, shorter conversations.
Order two Okay, really, I meanagain.
One of the glories of what I'vecome to understand, especially
with autistic folks, is youdon't need to use, just say it
like you don't need to becareful, it doesn't serve anyone
, including you, and it's sonice to just say yeah, sometimes
(19:40):
, you know, when, sometimespeople like I'm going to say
things, so everybody, get ready,put your hat, put your sturdy
hat on, like you can say likehey, you know, sometimes when
they're doing sexual stufftogether, they might put their
mouths on each other's privates.
It's called oral sex.
It's something they agree to do.
It's not for kids, it's forlater in life.
Rather than saying somethinglike oh hey, I need to talk to
(20:03):
you about something, and okay,there's this kind of sex.
It's called oral sex.
Do you know what that is?
That makes it like this againOne person puts their mouth on
another person's privates andthen they duck a duck, a duck,
right, right, and you hear merattle that off right Like.
(20:23):
How many times have I describedoral sex?
7,000.
So the reason I want to giveyou that example is because it's
highly charged and kids aretalking about it.
There is an epidemic of kidstalking about 69 on the
playground, like it's all overthe place.
And I was just actually inwhere was I, alabama and
teaching at an Air Force basewith a group of folks who work
(20:44):
with kids and I was like, howmany of you are hearing about 69
on the playground?
A third of the hands went up.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
The other third are going to know real fast, right,
the sexual moaning, that's theother thing that's going on.
These sexual moaning sounds andI'm like, how about that?
And they're like, yeah, sothere's this epidemic of this
stuff going on, and so we haveto get ahead of it, because your
kids need to understand that,yeah, this is something that
people do, they agree to do it.
It's later in life.
(21:12):
It's not for kids, and with achild who's got lower cognition,
one of the things that canhappen is their body can be
ahead of their brain, right, youcan have a 13-year-old who's
cognitively more like a nine or10-year-old and here they are,
in their grownup body.
They're having sexual feelings,they're getting boners left,
right and center.
(21:32):
They don't know what to doabout that.
I mean, they might touch them,feel more likely to touch
themselves in public becausethey just they struggle with
public-private, and so thosekids absolutely need books and
lots of conversation aboutwhat's happening with their body
so they understand it's normal,right, and then talking about
(21:54):
sex in a simpler way.
But if you've got your13-year-old who's cognitively
like a 10-year-old hanging outwith other 13-year-olds, right,
yeah, and that's the hard part,I think, is teenagers are
exposed to it.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Obviously, in junior high, kids are talking about it.
I think some parents are indenial that it's happening in
elementary school.
I really do, but it is.
And but then when you get achild who's a teenager so
they're in junior high or maybefreshman in high school, but
they're a young teendevelopmentally they're not a
young teen, they're.
They're delayed.
So maybe they're hanging outwith or they're around or
(22:32):
they're're they considerfriendships of kids that are
younger.
We're going to bring the olderconversations across that
spectrum and it could be theymake the moaning sounds to see
what the other kids respond withbecause they're trying to
figure out.
Well, they laugh at it overhere, they're going to laugh at
it over here, right, right, andso they make the moaning sounds
(22:52):
or they they make the gesturesthey've seen other kids do, and
and then the younger kids arelike what the heck was that?
So it's better for for parents,if, if you have got that
elementary school kid, if youstart talking about it early,
very matter of fact, just likeyou would math or anything else,
(23:14):
then when what the heck is thathappens, they're going to come
to you because they're notafraid.
They're not thinking it's a hardcrush topic.
They're not those kinds ofevents.
So, yeah, it's really criticalfor all age groups to really be
having that conversation becauseof that.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, and consistently right and
consistently like.
Even like, kids before pubertyare often really fine.
Lots of them will just talk andbe super chatty.
And then they get into pubertyand adolescence and they're like
I don't need to hear this, Ialready know everything, my
personal favorite.
And so they put the brakes on.
And so just because your kidsput the brakes on, that doesn't
mean you stop talking.
(23:49):
That's a good one you don'tlike.
Just because they don't want tohear it doesn't mean you stop
talking about it.
Like, think of all the otherthings, like they need to bathe.
You don't stop.
Well, sometimes you just haveto Forget it.
Your peers will take care ofyou.
Smelling like a swamp, thegoats and farts, is what was
going on at my house.
That's true.
A lot of times that won't goaway Goats, goats and farts,
(24:16):
goats and farts, um.
So you can't give up on thisbecause they don't want to hear
it.
And again, uh, kids, your kidsare more, um, they're more at
risk, they're higher risk,they're.
They're unfortunately right andI wish I could say this was
just going to fix all that, butit's not.
And one of the places that kidskind of get into into trouble
are girls who are neurodivergent.
They mask and they do much moregoing along to get along.
(24:38):
They're diagnosed later.
Women aren't diagnosed untilthey're in their 30s or 40s,
sometimes because we mask, weknow how to go along, right.
And so we've got a 12-year-oldgirl who's operating on a
nine-year-old level and she'shanging out with other girls who
are talking about crushing andall kinds of things and she's
going to maybe say some thingsthat that they're crushing
(25:01):
things and she doesn'tunderstand what she's doing, so
she might make herselfvulnerable inadvertently.
And so now that for those ofyou who have neurodivergent and
developmentally different gals,just take a breath, um, because
this open line of communicationis what's one of the things that
can help them.
So role-playing and and sayingyou know, if you don't
understand something that'shappened, just tell me.
(25:23):
And being really clear, youwon't be in trouble.
Even if a kid tells you you'llbe in trouble, you will not be
in trouble.
We don't roll that way.
We don't.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah, and I think that that's also you know,
letting them know that there'sthat safe place, no matter what
anyone else has told you.
Yeah, and we keep.
We keep referring toneurodivergent, which is a very
large category, a little bit ofa smaller category, however,
when you and I were kind ofdiscussing this before you had
mentioned, the category issmaller but the percentage of
students affected within thatcategory is a lot larger and
(25:54):
that's like your transgendercategory, your LGBTQ, so will
you kind of explore that againfor?
Speaker 2 (26:01):
our listeners.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
It's a little bit different of a category than
just neurodivergent and I wantto make sure that we give that
the price.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
It's related to sexuality, right.
So about 2% to 3% of folks whoare autistic identify as
something other than cisgenderand straight.
So it's LGBTQ.
So cisgender means that whenyou were born, they looked at
your parts and said you're agirl because you had a vulva, or
you're a boy because you have apenis, and so that's.
(26:29):
That's what cisgender means.
We all know what straight means, right.
So it's really interesting.
And they're much more likely tobe LGBTQ, and there doesn't
appear to be a lot of researchinto why.
But the kind of reasoning isthat they don't give a crap
about social norms, right?
A lot of autistic people arelike I just am who I am, I don't
(26:49):
care.
I like that person.
I don't feel like a girl, Ifeel like a care, I like that
person.
I don't feel like a girl, Ifeel like a boy, I feel like
both.
I feel like neither Um so, or Ifeel like I'm not.
I feel like I'm a, I'm a, I'mtold I'm a girl, but I really do
feel like I'm a boy, right.
And so they have this different,um, kind of worldview of gender
and sexuality, which I think umis.
(27:10):
Honestly, I know this isprobably controversial.
I think it's probably more real.
Right, it's more real becausethey're not falling or they're
not as subject to these socialmores and our cultural stuff and
that kind of thing which,depending on what family the
child's in, can be really awfulbut for the child and really
hard on the parents, becauselots of people don't understand
(27:31):
this.
Because we are cisgender, likeI can't imagine being a boy,
right, or a guy.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
I wouldn't know how, that there are times I say to my
boys, cause they'll ask me wedo have open conversations.
They'll ask me questions aboutparts or itchings or this or
that, which is totally normalquestions for them to ask, and
there are times that I'd go.
Well, I don't know, let me callyour dad in.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
I don't have your parts and I'm not interested in
having your parts, just beingvery mindful that this is
something a big proportion ofneurodivergent folks deal with
and kids deal with.
And then here's anotherinteresting statistic.
Let me see if I can get itright Six percent of people who
are transgender are autistic.
(28:14):
Wow that's a much largerpercentage.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think it just comes backto that piece around.
I don't see the world in thesame way, like coming back to
your stinky boys, right, like Idon't care, I don't care that I
stink, like the world around youcares, I don't care.
You need to bathe, I don't care, right, cause that's really a
(28:36):
social thing that they don'tcare about.
Um, which is gross.
But there you go, um, anyway.
I'm not an expert on gettingchildren to bathe, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
And it's you know, when we talk about these topics
with children, even if yourchild is physically a girl,
emotionally girl all the thingsor a boy, they probably should
have the discussion about whattransgender is, what LGBTQ plus
(29:04):
is, and start to understand thateven early, because it will
make them a better friend.
It's going to make them not ifthe topic comes up.
So it's one of those thingsthat's really really important
for our children to to dive into, and I think that that's really
something that should be partof every conversation that we
(29:26):
have.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Absolutely, and especially like that's a
conversation when your kids arelittle about different kinds of
families, right RightRelationships, so it's
everywhere, it is never goingaway, and so just your
responsibility as a parent of aneurodivergent kid is to be just
mindful.
Okay, they might see this partof themselves differently than I
do, and there's so much helpand support for for parents of
(29:48):
queer kids, but one of the otherstatistics that I am going to
just drop in here is that,unfortunately, queer kids are
four times more likely to commitsuicide.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, that's a really importantstatistic and this can be one of
the topics that, and then youadd near divergence, you add
(30:10):
this, you add that and it'sgoing to increase that as well.
But the one thing that keepsthose kids on par with the
general population is parentalsupport.
And it's really interestingbecause parental support just
comes down a tiny bit.
There's suicide risk, it's,it's, it's higher, it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
So that for me is a big deal right, like nobody
wants their kid to do that,right, and I think everybody
would love to have a heads up,and if they know that right off
the bat this is something that'sgoing to be critical to
understand in a conversation tobe having, then it's definitely.
It's like oh, you never want tolook back as a parent and say,
if I had only known, yeah, or ifI had, if I had believed my
(30:51):
child?
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Yes, right, and.
And also it can be reallyconfusing because adolescence is
a time of trying things on andand exploring, and so you know,
you know we have kids who, likeI, lots of stories from parents
were like, okay, my daughterannounced that they are
non-binary, which means theydon't have a gender, and they
(31:12):
are using they them pronounslast week and now she's furious.
They are furious because Imisgendered them and so used she
instead of they, and then aweek later they're back to she
and then they're back to they.
So there's this exploration andstuff, and so trying to keep up
with that.
So my friend, joe Langford, whois a wonderful therapist who
(31:34):
works with boys and he says justhold it lightly, roll with it,
Ask what does that mean?
And when you misgender them oryou're super confused and
they're making you nuts withthis, you go do that with your
friends, with them.
You go do that with yourfriends, with them.
You are loving kindness andlight and trying to figure it
out right, be there for them, besupportive, and if you don't
(31:54):
get it, you can just say I justdon't get this, but I love you,
right, and we'll figure it out.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Just like you can say this is going to be an awkward
conversation.
You can say, this is notsomething I'm familiar with and
understand from your perspective, but that doesn't mean that, as
your parent, I still love you.
That doesn't mean that there'sa lack of love or a lack of
wanting to understand.
I love you.
I'm here for you.
Let's figure out how we'regoing to walk this together, and
I mean, let's admit it, theygrow up.
(32:21):
There's just times we conflictbecause they're teenagers, and
so this is really, if we justrelax and treat it as just
another area we conflict in,we're going to navigate.
I think we're going to navigateit a whole lot better than if
we get ourselves emotionalenergy.
So, yeah, that that makes a bigdifference.
I think that's a key thing tofocus on.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Oh, go ahead, just circling back.
Like this is not somethingpeople do intuitively, while
parenting is not somethingpeople do intuitively.
Let's just be clear about that.
But this is really notsomething people do intuitively.
So, learning about how to talkwith kids, understanding what
they need to know by when, um,and realizing that they
absolutely need to know, likethey should know how babies are
(33:05):
made by the time they are sixlike that needs to get out of
the way.
That is science, it's easy,right?
They should understand aboutdifferent kinds of relationships
, they should know aboutcrushing and what love is, and,
and they should know that peoplehave sex for fun.
I'm, you know, most of the timewe're having sex for fun, right
, like baby making, which youshould also be very clear that
(33:27):
we plan our pregnancies.
Pregnancies are planned, yes,absolutely.
Like just plant that seed.
Like if you're going to havesex, you're going to use birth
control.
Like just if you're going toget pregnancy can happen.
Just being really clear aboutthat and you know if that might.
If you're, if you're a personwho believes that people should
wait until they're married,until they have sex, and you
know that does not work, becauseyou might've been that person,
(33:47):
it doesn't work.
It's never worked, it neverwill worked, but you can say
what I hope for you is that youwait until you're in a loving,
committed relationship, ideallymarried.
But if that isn't, if you'reheading down that path, please
let us know.
We'll make sure you're safe andit's a good decision for you,
right, um cause you can'tcontrol them, but you can set
them up for success.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Right, and, like you said, you can tell them what
your hope and your goals are.
Yeah, that is so.
We do that in all parts, allparts of parenting.
We tell them what our hopes andgoals are for them and careers
and everything.
We should also tell them forour hopes and goals in their
sexual life, with a but.
But you're your own person,this is your life.
(34:28):
So as you navigate that, cometo me.
Let me help you Know thatpregnancies are planned.
No-transcript interjecting inthis conversation.
(34:56):
Stop talking about that, right.
It's just so many times peopledon't want to talk about it at
all and so it's such animportant part is we have to
have the birth control.
Part of the conversation, likeyou said, said it starts with,
by the time there was six thatyou said they should know how,
how sex happens.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Yeah, people agree to do it.
It feels good to their grownupbodies.
It's not for kids, it's later,for later in life.
We'll talk about it a lot, soyou feel ready for it If that's
something you want to do, andthose harder conversations about
rape and assault and and thatkind of stuff needs to come
along.
They should know.
So, like a 10, 11 year oldshould know about those awful
(35:34):
parts of of sexuality which Ican't even call those sexuality,
but those awful parts of life.
They need to know about thatbecause they're going to hear
the words yes.
And then if we kind of circleback to the porn conversation,
the porn they're going to see isviolent, it is fake, it is
racist, it is sexist, it's awful.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
It's awful, it's absolutely horrible.
It destroys the image of whatsex should be.
It absolutely destroys it.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Absolutely.
And kids think that they usethat for training.
They think that's how you dosex, because they don't have
anyone to train them Right, sothat's why we want to have the
conversation.
Yeah, right.
So being really clear, like youknow, if you have a crush on
someone, you know A, you mightneed to talk, find out if they
are crushing back and talk aboutthat.
And then when people areengaged in any kind of romantic
(36:25):
relationship, it usually startswith handholding yes, right, and
there's lots of progression,right, and porn starts in the
middle.
Like being really clear, likeporn starts in the middle.
Real people don't do thosethings.
Nobody's, nobody's body lookslike that.
They don't make those, thosenoises.
The women are not enjoying that.
They're acting like beingreally clear, that this is not
(36:47):
real.
And your child, who doesn't getit?
All he gets is that it feelsgood to watch it, right.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Doesn't get anything else, doesn't get anything else
and it's.
It's hard to explain.
Um, like I said, I have threeboys, um, one of ours is older
and he we actually took him toand I, oh my gosh, I blanked on
the name of the movie that cameout, but it was about sex
trafficking and that was part ofour.
Obviously we'd had many moreconversations before.
We just dropped him into thatmovie, but it hit him in such an
(37:23):
emotional and impactive way.
And then, at the end of thatmovie, when we were having our
discussion, when dad and I weresitting down with him and
discussing what it was part ofwhat we brought up is this is
what the porn industry is.
So and he again, much moremature level we said if you were
to watch porn, you're promotingthat industry.
Oh, my gosh, that hit home withhim in a whole new level.
(37:45):
And so it.
There was a lot leading up tothat.
Again, this was when he wasolder, um, but I do think that
if you're laying the foundationsthen, yes, you can get kids to
start to understand the deeperlevels of things.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure, and that you know
he's older, so he'd have someempathy, right.
So young kids don't haveempathy, they just don't.
They don't have empathy untilthey're what, like 10 or maybe,
if that, if they had that, sowhen he could see that, oh my
God, he could see the throughline.
The other thing that happens isthat there's this idea and
(38:31):
developmentally different kiddosthat they're not sexual, Right,
they're just not interested,they're not capable, they're not
interested, which is easy forus, okay, yeah, oh, don't need
to know.
If you're not interested,you're not capable of having a
romance.
So that's just absolutely nottrue and it's just going to look
different.
It's just absolutely not trueand it's just going to look
different.
It's just going to lookdifferent.
(38:51):
So, assuming your child has thesame urges, interests,
instincts, all of that as everyother human being is really
important because it'srespectful.
It's respectful and you know,lots of times people also think
that if you fill a kid in aboutsex, they're going to go out and
try it.
No, it's, generally speaking,not true, right, right, having
(39:12):
the information as early asyou're talking about.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
By six, they should know what sex is and then you're
building on it.
They're not going to go out andtry it because to them it's
just a normal part ofconversation.
We talk about college, we talkabout family, we talk about
family, we talk about sex, wetalk, you know, it's just part
of the evolution of growing upin conversations and so, yeah,
they're not just going to go runout there and try it because
you've talked about it, exactlyBecause they're going to do it
(39:37):
anyway.
So here's an important question.
We've talked about how do westart?
We've talked about being sixyears old.
What about my guests who have a16-year-old or a 13-year-old
and they're going?
We haven't had the conversation.
Now what?
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Okay, here's the good news.
With a person who is 12 andover, you do not need to be
careful, you don't need to saywhen a man and a woman fall in
love, none of that.
You just say to them the firstthing you say is we've blown it.
I blew it.
We should have been talking toyou about this.
We didn't know what to say.
We didn't think you were ready.
Frankly, we weren't ready.
(40:11):
I wasn't ready, but you have toknow, because there is so much
bad information about this thatI know you've heard.
Even if you think your child'sin a bubble, maybe they are.
Maybe you live in a log cabinin the middle of Montana with no
Wi-Fi and they're homeschooled.
But I'm going to guess.
No, um, like you say, you know,I know you've heard stuff and
(40:33):
it's time for us to starttalking.
I'm going to be uncomfortable,you're going to be uncomfortable
.
We will live.
Yeah, I'm going to get yourbooks.
We've got this great videos thatcan show you and we have to
talk about this because you needto be smart about it and then
throw that whole thing about.
You know, you're the smartestperson in your friend group.
It was really good, it feelsreally good and they may like,
(40:53):
they may say I already knoweverything and you say, great,
I'm sure you don't know a ton,but I don't know what you know.
So I'm going to be telling youstuff.
That's a great answer, yeah,and you know the nuts, the nuts
and bolts, bold stuff like thescience-y stuff around STIs and
pregnancy and that kind of thing, as you recall, like that's
(41:14):
just kind of book learning,right.
But it's the pieces that areconfusing about the relationship
stuff.
I mean, just think about,reflect on your own high school
years, right?
Remember how confusing that was.
And then, layer, neurodivergenceon that right Layer, some kind
of intellectual disability onthat like layer, physical
disability on that, like layerin, and it's just even more
complex.
But I'm just going to go backto this idea that you being just
(41:37):
straight and not pussyfootingaround, just talking about it is
easier and better for everyoneand no one's going to die and no
one's going to throw up.
So there's that.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Well, and I love you know, like you said, there's so
many resources out there, and sowe'll put some of the resources
on my website and, of course,I'll link to your information
too.
One of the things that I lovethat you've said over and over
again as you've said, this isfor adults, so we're going to
talk about it to prepare you.
This is for people who agreeand you've used the word agree
(42:09):
every time, and I like that.
Agree to do this.
Agree implies a discussion thatwe're not accidentally letting
this happen.
We've discussed it, we'repreparing for it, we're planning
for it, and we're planning whatwe don't want to have happen,
which is a pregnancy right now,right, so those are the things I
think you've loved about, andthen also, I love that you've
(42:31):
said be consistent, don't giveup the conversation.
Start it as early as you can andjust keep going, keep going,
keep going, even when they pushyou back to say, oh, that's okay
.
I understand that you don'twant to talk about it right now,
but I'm going to talk to you alittle bit about it anyways,
because I want to make surewe're still on the same page, or
that you, but I'm going to talkto you a little bit about it
(42:51):
anyways, because I want to makesure we're still on the same
page or that you know we'restill headed in the right
direction.
And then one of the things Ilove is you talk about it so
naturally.
Well, it's because you have alot of practice.
So would you suggest thatparents maybe practice a little
bit in the mirror, gettingcomfortable with their facial
expressions, so they're notgoing.
So there's this sex thing, youknow.
Would you suggest they practicein the mirror, or even practice
(43:12):
with each other, if they can,or a best friend themselves?
Speaker 2 (43:14):
Yeah, if you're parenting with someone
practicing in the car byyourself if you're ever in the
car by yourself, great place topractice.
I have a book called Sex Talkswith Tweens.
That's just scripts.
I actually have a person who'sa grandmother and her grandsons
come over.
She just opens it up and readsit to them.
There you go.
She reads my scripts.
It's okay, it doesn't matter.
(43:35):
They're going to think you'reweird anyway.
So if you just say I have notesbecause I'm uncomfortable,
you're also modeling how youmanage something when you feel
uncomfortable.
Right, so take notes.
The other thing, too, is if yousay something and you're talking
and you're using too many words, or you get all hot and weird
or your kid, like, runsscreaming from you, that's all
fine.
You're just going to come backand say I need to do that again.
(43:58):
I got all hot and weird and youran screaming, so use your
timer.
I'm going to set your timer.
If they have a phone which theyshould not have, a phone until
they are in the eighth or ninthgrade, set your timer.
If they have a phone which theyshould not have, a phone until
they are in the eighth or ninthgrade, set their timer and give
me three minutes and you useyour three minutes.
You can also say things like.
You do not need to respond tome.
I don't have any expectationthat you ask me questions, but
(44:19):
no matter what, when you're doneyou say anything.
What do you think?
Did you already know that?
Anything to add, you give theman opportunity to talk to you.
You don't just like I'm done.
You always give them a space totalk to you.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Yeah, exactly, I love that.
There's no expectation ofresponse but there's an
opportunity for an response.
Yes, exactly, exactly, I loveit.
And then one I would love.
I'm going to feature your bookon my website, of course.
Um one of the other books thatI brought up to you that my
husband and I have used becauseof the porn situation is we use
the good pictures, bad pictures,and we've read through this
(44:53):
more than once with our kidsEven my children, who have not
been exposed to pornography.
We've still read through thisbook with them.
So there are so many resourcesout there and I think sometimes
parents just don't know where tolook.
So obviously, I'm going to listsome, I'll link to you, you're
going to list some, I'll link toyou, you're going to list some,
and then that'll give them atleast a good launching point.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and good pictures, bad pictures is
the only book that's really goodthat's out there for kids.
Um, about, about porn exposure.
There's a junior version and aI call it the senior version, so
there's one for younger kidsand there's one for older kids.
Um, it's good information foryou too, and don't be afraid to
read it.
Don't be afraid to read it.
Like you personally might needto chunk it down, and that's
(45:33):
fine, especially if you're thechild with a short attention
span.
So just be mindful.
Like you might even only getlike two paragraphs in, that's
fine.
I mean with any of the booksand things that we recommend.
But the biggest thing here isthat you're going to do what you
can do and doing nothing is not.
It's not okay.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
Yeah, so it's just not setting them up for failure
is what it's doing.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
Yeah, and and more complication and et cetera.
So, just for yourself, um, justto get you know, kind of you,
you've just already started theparty.
You listen to us, you listen tothis conversation, right?
So, yay, one step done.
So maybe the next step is tosign up for my newsletter, or to
go get a book that we recommend, right?
(46:14):
Or to talk with your partner Ifyou're parenting with someone,
listen to this together or justsay, hey, we got to do this,
what's our plan?
Right?
And I know there's a series ofbooks.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
And if listeners are Christian, there's a series of
books.
And if they, if, if listenersare Christian, there's a series
of book called God's design forsex.
And it's a series because itliterally starts off at ages
four, five, six, and each bookis for a different chunk level,
and they do exactly what you'resaying.
Matter of fact terms.
They go over exactly how thingshappen and then they slowly
(46:47):
introduce topics.
Yeah, exactly how things happen.
And then they slowly introducetopics.
And then, even if your familydoesn't a hundred percent agree
on what the book is saying, whatthey can be doing is using that
, as, like you said, you readthe book first, go through it.
Okay, at least I know what Ineed to be talking about this
age group with my children, andnow I'm going to insert our own
values into the system Right.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
So one thing about those books I don't know how old
they are and the chunking itout is great, but just rule of
thumb for 2024 is they need toknow basically everything by the
time they start middle school.
That's a scary thought, isn'tit?
Speaker 1 (47:25):
Yeah, I mean, middle school seems so young.
But you're right, because I wasa middle school educator for 14
years and kids were having sexin the bathroom.
Yeah, they sure were, and theystill are, and now they're doing
worse.
We know it all by middle school,which means that 11 to 12 years
old 11 to 12 years old theyneed to know everything, and
that includes opening thediscussion of what is LGBTQ,
(47:48):
what is transgender.
All of that has to be known.
So if your child is six, seven,eight years old and they're
scared by the topic, you got tostart digging in fast, because
you don't have much time left.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
I mean, and the thing to remember is that the if you
get in, the sooner you get inthe door and establish yourself
as a trustworthy, knowledgeableperson, you have age appropriate
resources for them.
You're talking openly about it.
It protects them and it alsoputs you in this pretty cool
position where you can be thatparent that their friends know
(48:25):
they can talk to if somethinggoes sideways, Right, which is a
real position of honor.
And so by being open with yourchild, by being, you know,
really frankly progressive withthis and really on it, you can
help another child.
That's so wonderful.
Yeah, it's a really great spaceto be in and everybody likes to
feel like an expert, right?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (48:44):
And, like you said, even if your child becomes an
expert in the area, they mightactually be helping.
In a way they don't evenrealize, right, because they're
comfortable with a conversationthat other people aren't
comfortable with, right?
So consistent talk, that is ageappropriate.
However, by six, they shouldknow what sex is and the
mechanics of it.
(49:04):
By 11, 12, which is double thatage five, six years later, they
should know it all and thebasics of everything.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
Yeah, yeah so the book that I really love.
That is kind of everything iscalled.
It's perfectly normal and theyshould have that book and it's
going to feel like a lot, butcompared to what they're going
to be exposed to as I, as youknow it's not.
It's healthy, it's accurate andit's it's positive, like, when
people hear the phrase sexpositive, they think that that's
like advocating for peoplebeing, you know, snm and
(49:36):
swinging through the rafters andpolyamory and all that.
Sure, that's part of it, butreally what it means is that
we're kind of where you started,like sex is a positive, healthy
, wonderful, cool part of life.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
And we just need to let our kids know that it is a
part of an adult life, foradults that agree whatever is
going to happen and are preparedfor it, and we talk about it
just like we do anything elsetheir education, their future
job, their friendships,everything else because it is
the whole human Absolutely Well,Amy, I really hope that I bet
(50:09):
we're going to get a lot ofcomments and a lot of questions
and I really hope that maybe wecan schedule to have you back
sometime in the future to kindof address some of those, maybe
even take some of thosequestions and just specifically
go at it, Cause I've loved thisconversation.
I really appreciate you joiningus.
Speaker 2 (50:21):
Thank you, and thank you for trusting me with your
people.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
Oh, I'm so excited I mean I just have goosebumps from
it because I know how much it'sgoing to help so many people
out there.
Good, Thank you Me too, Thankyou, Amy.
Have a good day Me too.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
This program is made possible by friends and partners
of the Special Parent Podcast.
For more information and tojoin our mailing list, visit
specialparentorg.
Welcome to the Special Parent Podcast.
I'm Dr Deanna Iverson, a proudmom of three boys and two
incredible kids with specialneeds.
I'm here to remind you thatyou're not alone on this journey
.
Whether you're navigating thehighs, the lows or those moments
in between, this podcast isyour weekly dose of hope, help
and heartfelt guidance.
(00:20):
Together, we'll celebrate thevictories, tackle the challenges
and connect with a communitythat truly understands.
So grab your favorite cup ofcoffee or tea, settle in and
let's embark on this empoweringjourney together.
You've got this.
Welcome everyone to the SpecialParent Podcast.
(00:43):
I'm Dr Deanna Iverson and I'mvery excited to have with me a
guest today.
This is Amy Lang, and Amy Langis a parent, but, most
importantly, she's a sexualityeducator and she specializes in
neurodivergent children.
So, amy, thank you so much forjoining me.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Welcome, my pleasure.
Thanks for having me on.
I'm excited to talk with youand I always learn something
from my people I'm working withon podcasts, so I'm excited to
get to know you and share myinfo with your people.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Oh, and I'm really excited about this too.
I can't wait to hear what youhave to tell us.
But first and foremost, how didyou get started in this area
the sexuality education,specialization of neurodiversity
how did that get started foryou?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Well, I had been a sex educator for throughout all
my twenties and into my thirties, and I was doing the usual
stuff, you know birth control,pregnancy counseling, sti
counseling loved it and hadassumed that I was going to be
spectacular when I had a kid andthat nothing would phase me and
it would just be really easy.
And I was really wrong.
Um, I, when Milo he's he's 23now uh, it was about five he was
(01:50):
getting ready for a bath and hegrabbed his penis and I thought
he was going to tell me it feltgood to touch it and I was just
like, don't tell me that,please don't tell me that in my
head.
And then I, I, anyway.
So that was my moment where Ithought, okay, this is not how
this should be and you need tofigure it out.
So I started doing a bunch ofresearch to figure out how to
talk with kids about sex.
(02:11):
And then, um, the other part ofmy background is, I have a
master's degree in appliedbehavioral science and my focus
was in adult education.
So, as I'm figuring this outfor our family, I realized that
I could help other adults and soI started birds and bees and
kids.
And um, as you can imagine.
Um, milo was completelymortified by my work for his
entire life.
He's better now.
(02:31):
He's better now, um so.
So I've been working withneurotypical parents and
neurodivergent parents all along.
I'm not neurodivergent, miloisn't.
My spouse, carrie, has dyslexia, which I did not know was
neurodivergence, and when Ilearned that I was like, oh,
this explains so many thingsabout you.
Um and so in the last couple ofyears when I do individual
(02:56):
consultations, I people wouldjust drop in oh, my kid is
autistic, adhd-er.
And then I was like, okay,what's happening?
So I started asking at the top,any neurodivergence in the
family and I kept getting yeses,like I would say like almost
two, I'm guessing like twothirds, that's a good number and
(03:18):
I thought, okay, well, y'allseem to need some help, let me
see what I can find.
And I couldn't find anything forpeople who were parenting
neurodivergent kids between thelike from preschool to middle
school, which is my sweet spotwith neurotypical kids.
So I was like, okay, I could, Icould do this.
So I got a certification inneurodiversity and sexuality and
disability, actually from MercyCollege, and so I have been
(03:41):
putting that to work and workingwith neurodivergent families,
working with, like withinschools that have neurodivergent
kids, and I also work withprofessionals and do sexual
abuse prevention training andteach about sexual behavior in
children.
So I have been able to add thison and, honestly, I was ready
for something new and so I justalways feel good about helping
(04:05):
parents, but helping parentswith neurodivergent kids or kids
who are disabled or withdisabilities has, just frankly,
it's just so much more rewardingbecause it's so important and
they feel better, right, likeeverybody feels better, but
double feel better.
So, anyway, so that's how I gotmy start and here we are.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Yeah, here we are.
I'm so glad you were able tojoin me.
And here we are.
Yeah, here we are.
I'm so glad you were able tojoin me, and for me, as a parent
of children that areneurodiverse, it's been such a
roller coaster ride, and that'swhy, when I was starting to
research for myself because Ihave boys and I know it's not
mostly boys, but it feels likeit sometimes that it's just
(04:42):
there's a lot more going on withboys and that sexuality piece a
lot of times, and I just wastrying to figure out how to help
my kid and it was really,really challenging because
there's not a lot out there andwe've we've done some things,
and then, of course, some thingshave completely flopped and
failed, and so that's why, whenI ran across you, I was like, oh
(05:03):
my gosh, this is amazing.
And so, like we talked about,you know, special needs and the
birds and the bees is a littlebit different than just talking
the birds and the bees ingeneral.
So I love the fact that we'regoing to have this conversation.
So I want to tell you a littlebit about why was I researching
this.
Why was I coming across this?
So it was several years ago.
(05:24):
Um, but my son, when he was andI don't remember if it's exactly
around eight, but I want to saybetween seven and eight um, we
had gotten them, the thesetablets, and they were Amazon
tablets, not anything againstAmazon, I'm a proud Amazon
purchaser.
We had gotten the Amazontablets for kids and they had um
(05:46):
kids tube.
You know, it's not YouTube,it's kids tube and so it's
supposed to be a little bit moreprotectant.
In addition to that, we hadadded all I think it was bark is
one of the ones that we hadused and we've used other ones,
and we we've put on all thesechecks and balances in places
and we'd look at our kids'tablets every once in a while,
etc.
So we thought we were good.
(06:09):
And my kids are using theirtablets and my son is special
needs in a lot of differentareas, but he also has a lower
cognition level.
So for him, just basic internetsearches weren't happening,
because he can't really spellwords yet or anything.
Searches weren't happeningbecause he can't really spell
words yet or anything.
So I think I also had a falsesense of security that he also
wouldn't discover sexual content, because he didn't even know
(06:31):
how to spell it, even if hecould say it yet and I learned
my lesson.
So what I found out was when wediscovered that he had been
exposed to pornography on histablet.
With all the checks andbalances in place, it was about
four clicks, because you knowhow when you're on the tablet,
you can use the back button.
It was four clicks backwardsfrom the pornography to the kids
(06:55):
video he was watching.
So it was clickbait on the side, the side panel clickbait.
Yeah, yeah, terrible.
And I was just shocked.
I didn't think it was apossibility with all the stuff
that we had put in place.
And ever since that day, my sonhas an addiction to pornography.
So sorry, we have fought thisbattle and it's been years.
(07:17):
We're six, seven years fightingthis battle and he doesn't
understand as much as we'veattempted to explain it and done
all the things.
He doesn't understand why thisis not healthy for him and I've
tried so hard and we've tried.
You know we have not gone toshaming.
We don't believe in that.
My husband and I are not intoshaming.
(07:39):
This is not something to beashamed of.
I mean, heck pornography is outthere because it's used a lot,
but it's not that I'm going tobe ashamed about.
However, he doesn't understandwhy he should even try to fight
it, right, and so that's part ofit.
I would say that's the biggerpart of the battle we're
fighting with him is why do Ieven need to fight?
This is kind of his question.
(08:00):
So I was researching and I cameupon you and I just I can't
wait to hear what you have tosay.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Oh man, I'm so sorry that happened to you and I think
that you're just like everyother parent, right?
You do all the things and thenyou just can't imagine that that
kid's YouTube, youtube is notsafe ever.
I'm in the end.
It's just not, it's not, it'snot's not, and you know it, and
so that happening is such.
I mean, it's not a surprise tome, and you know bark and
(08:30):
custodio, they're not perfect,right, and they're good.
It's a good start.
It's just better than nothing,right, better than nothing,
right.
Nothing is a much biggerproblem because you can get to
way worse stuff than you know.
Maybe your kid initially saw.
But yeah, and not shaming,because it's not their fault,
(08:53):
right, even if they're seekingit out.
It's not their fault thatthey're curious.
It's not that their fault,their fault that their friends
are talking about it.
It's not their fault that theirparents aren't talking with
them about sex, like.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
None of that's their fault Not to be shaming Right,
exactly, and I, honestly, wethis is my, one of my sons, and
I didn't think he was readycognitively to have too much of
a conversation.
He knew some basics.
We'd said the word sex beforewe talked about private parts.
(09:25):
I mean, I think most everyonetouches on that by the time
they're seven, eight years old,just because we're afraid of
what's out there.
We've talked about that kind ofstuff but I hadn't really gone
into at all what pornography wasor anything, because I did not
expect him to need thatconversation.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Of course not.
Of course not.
Especially that child of yours,right, who isn't operating on
this.
You know he's got stuff goingon that doesn't put him in the
same.
You know he's not a typicaleight year old, right?
Or it wasn't a typical nineyear old or 12 year old, so that
just makes things morecomplicated.
And but it doesn't mean justbecause your child is
(10:01):
neurodivergent and whatever thatlooks like, um, or
developmentally different, itdoesn't mean you don't talk with
them about this part of life.
Because they are sexual beings,they will have sexual feelings
Pretty much everybody does andsex and relationships is one of
the biggest things we do in ourlives.
It's with us from birth untildeath.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yeah, and it's supposed to be a rewarding part
of our lives.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
I mean, it's intended to be the celebration dance,
it's supposed to be fun, right,and unfortunately it's
incredibly confusing, right,right.
And so, you know, one of myphilosophies is that our
children have a human right tobe prepared, as prepared as they
can be for this part of life,and that's on us, right, it's on
us, right.
(10:43):
I mean, we don't do anythingbigger than this or more
complicated than this in ourlives the romantic relationships
, sexual relationships therereally isn't anything much
bigger and that can have, like,it's physical, it's social, it's
emotional, right, it's all theparts, it's all the things,
right, you know, calculus isintellectual, I'm in the end.
(11:03):
And then who uses calculus?
I don't even know what it is.
Trigonometry, don't ask, butlike, like, finding a way to
make this a priority in ourparenting can be hard because of
our personal histories, becauseof where kids are wired right,
because of our culture.
(11:25):
You know, maybe you're, maybeyou're someone who's in a
religious culture where it'sabsolutely not allowed to talk
about, like there's so manyplaces, but at the end of the
day, this is about health andsafety and that is our only job
to keep our kids healthy andsafe.
So all that to say, one of mythings, is that this doesn't
have to be so hard, it can bereally fun and funny.
(11:47):
I mean, there are just so manystories and talking about it.
Even if your child doesn'tquite get it, you still have to
talk about it because you'redoing due diligence, right.
You need to do everything youcan to make sure your child is
safe.
So, or you know, or has thisinformation, so I just want to
(12:08):
put that out there.
And then what are you thinking?
Speaker 1 (12:26):
on who we are.
It's that social, emotional,all those pieces.
So, as a parent, that can comeacross as pretty overwhelming
I'm supposed to not onlydiscipline my child, make sure
they are behaved well when we goto the restaurant, I'm supposed
to do all these other thingsbut above all of that, the
health and safety and our sexualhealth is important to us as
human beings.
And so how do we help?
What's the first steps?
Let's say, let's just startwith almost age group, let's
(12:49):
start with in the beginning,when they're young.
How do we have the conversationwith our younger kids,
regardless or taking intoconsideration the fact that
maybe younger, it's more mentalage than physical age?
How do we have thatconversation?
Speaker 2 (13:06):
with them.
So the first conversation isusing correct names for their
private body parts.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
I mean penises, vulvas, vaginas, testicles,
butts, anuses, mouths, are alsoa private part, just like using
but the down there parts, usingthose correct words.
What happens is is that takesaway the mystery.
So when we say front, bottom,back bottom, tallywhacker,
tinkle, waggle, my favorite,it's confusing, right.
(13:33):
And it also says there'ssomething special or different
down there, like this is not mysmeller, right, it's my nose.
And for, you know, kids who areautistic and neurodivergent,
lots of you just got to bestraight like black and white
thinkers.
They don't understand aeuphemism.
So if you say hey, my, you know, hey, how's your taco today,
(13:54):
I'm just kind of how's your taco?
Is your taco itching?
And you've got a person with avulva, they're going to be like
itching taco what the hell,right?
They're a middle schooler andthey're.
And someone's talking about, oh, that, that girl's taco.
They're going to be likevegetarian or ground beef, right
, they're not going to catch theslang, right?
(14:16):
And so that's the very, veryfirst conversation is using the
correct names for private bodyparts.
And the other reason for thatis that it's protective, because
folks who mess with kids theywant them to be clueless.
So if your child says, likeThanksgiving is coming up, right
.
If your child's at the dinnertable and they're like God, my
penis itches, the whole room'sgoing to freeze, right.
(14:39):
But if there's a person therewho's a predator, they hear your
kid say penis.
They're going to be like allright, someone's talking to that
child, yep.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
That's true.
It does take a lot of that likehe takes that away from it and
it makes it a conversationthat's actually okay to have.
Which is part of it is thereason we're talking about it is
we want our kids to talk backwith us about it, and if we act
like it's easy, then they'regoing to run away and talk to
their friends about it first,Right?
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Right, so the friends might be accurate, like we all
had friends who were accurateand then we all had friends who
were not so accurate.
So they're going to find theinformation and, like you just
pointed out, they're going tofind it online.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yep, right, and online doesn't find it online,
and online doesn't use theterminology.
Oh no, it's way worse.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Yeah, it's way worse.
So, talking about that, talkingabout different kinds of
families, talking about how,literally, how babies are made,
right, the penis goes usually,right, penis goes in the vagina,
always takes a sperm and an eggand talking about how they came
to be and and talking about howthey came to be, and there's
lots of really good books whichare, you know, good for some
(15:51):
kids, not so good for other kids.
There's a great website calledamazeorg that has videos on
everything you can possiblythink of and they're kid
friendly, they're cartoons andso, using, like with
neurodivergent kids, you need touse a lot of different
techniques, right.
A lot of different ways, likedifferent learning styles, right
.
So making sure they understandthat and that this is a
conversation you do have in yourfamily and you need to say we
(16:12):
can talk about anything you want.
I will answer you honestly,right?
If you have questions, come tome.
If you're curious aboutsomething, come to me.
And then one of the biggestmyths out there in the sex
talking land is that if yourchild no, my child told me he'd
rather talk to strangers than meor his dad, it was great.
(16:34):
He also told me he would neverask me a question.
Not on this topic, mom, I meanreally not on anything, actually
None of this tight-lipped humanbeing.
So just remembering like thisis your responsibility, and even
if you are uncomfortable,that's okay.
All you do is you say I'muncomfortable, right, nobody
talked to me about this, I'mgoing to be weird, right?
Speaker 1 (16:58):
And, like you said, say I'm uncomfortable, even if I
would even say as a parent,even if you said to your kid
like, okay, we do need to havethis discussion and mom's a
little uncomfortable becausethis is my first time having
this, with discussion with you,and that when kids know that
we're more human emotionally, Ithink they accept and roll with
(17:18):
that better too.
You know that makes them morerelaxed because, oh, if mom's
uncomfortable, then it's okaythat I'm uncomfortable.
Yeah, exactly, so I can be partof the discussion.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah, or just say this is going to be weird for
both of us.
Here we go.
You need to know, right, youneed to know.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
I like it.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
No, and you know, and some kids, um, you know, depend
on wiring and just personalityreally could be really
uncomfortable with this.
Lots of times neurodivergentkids really struggle with the
changes of the body throughpuberty, um, or just you know.
The other piece, too, is likelots of kids are like this or
like I don't I'm never doingthat, so I don't need to have
this information Really commonand it's like, well, say that
(17:58):
now, which you can't really saybecause it's condescending, but
it's like, yeah, I get it.
But one of the things thatoften resonates with kids is if
you say you know what?
It is really cool to be thesmartest kid in your friend
group about this.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I like that right.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I like that right they do they might not care.
It doesn't resonate with everychild, but they might not care,
and for you as a parent, it isreally cool to be the smartest
parent in your, in your friendgroup about this.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
It's great, cause I remember a lot of times when I
would you know, say to parentsoh yeah, we've talked to, you
know so-and-so about it.
One of our sons and you havealready.
Oh yeah, yeah.
And then, especially after whathappened with my, my middle son
, I would say yes, because thishappened, and I would have
parents be like, oh well, didyou try this app or that app?
That would have.
(18:41):
And I'm like, no, you're notunderstanding what I'm saying.
There is only a level ofprotection with all of this out
there.
So we have to have theconversation because that is the
top level of protection, right,the information Right.
So with kids that have like alower, they're developmentally
delayed, maybe they have like alower cog issues going on.
(19:02):
What would you say are someways?
Obviously still use the rightvocabulary and language.
What would you say are some ofthe ways that we need to do?
For example, maybe morefrequent conversations or, like
you mentioned that one website.
It's probably pretty helpfulbecause it's done cartoon-like.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah, so more frequent, shorter conversations.
Order two Okay, really, I meanagain.
One of the glories of what I'vecome to understand, especially
with autistic folks, is youdon't need to use, just say it
like you don't need to becareful, it doesn't serve anyone
, including you, and it's sonice to just say yeah, sometimes
(19:40):
, you know, when, sometimespeople like I'm going to say
things, so everybody, get ready,put your hat, put your sturdy
hat on, like you can say likehey, you know, sometimes when
they're doing sexual stufftogether, they might put their
mouths on each other's privates.
It's called oral sex.
It's something they agree to do.
It's not for kids, it's forlater in life.
Rather than saying somethinglike oh hey, I need to talk to
(20:03):
you about something, and okay,there's this kind of sex.
It's called oral sex.
Do you know what that is?
That makes it like this againOne person puts their mouth on
another person's privates andthen they duck a duck, a duck,
right, right, and you hear merattle that off right Like.
(20:23):
How many times have I describedoral sex?
7,000.
So the reason I want to giveyou that example is because it's
highly charged and kids aretalking about it.
There is an epidemic of kidstalking about 69 on the
playground, like it's all overthe place.
And I was just actually inwhere was I, alabama and
teaching at an Air Force basewith a group of folks who work
(20:44):
with kids and I was like, howmany of you are hearing about 69
on the playground?
A third of the hands went up.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
The other third are going to know real fast, right,
the sexual moaning, that's theother thing that's going on.
These sexual moaning sounds andI'm like, how about that?
And they're like, yeah, sothere's this epidemic of this
stuff going on, and so we haveto get ahead of it, because your
kids need to understand that,yeah, this is something that
people do, they agree to do it.
It's later in life.
(21:12):
It's not for kids, and with achild who's got lower cognition,
one of the things that canhappen is their body can be
ahead of their brain, right, youcan have a 13-year-old who's
cognitively more like a nine or10-year-old and here they are,
in their grownup body.
They're having sexual feelings,they're getting boners left,
right and center.
(21:32):
They don't know what to doabout that.
I mean, they might touch them,feel more likely to touch
themselves in public becausethey just they struggle with
public-private, and so thosekids absolutely need books and
lots of conversation aboutwhat's happening with their body
so they understand it's normal,right, and then talking about
(21:54):
sex in a simpler way.
But if you've got your13-year-old who's cognitively
like a 10-year-old hanging outwith other 13-year-olds, right,
yeah, and that's the hard part,I think, is teenagers are
exposed to it.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Obviously, in junior high, kids are talking about it.
I think some parents are indenial that it's happening in
elementary school.
I really do, but it is.
And but then when you get achild who's a teenager so
they're in junior high or maybefreshman in high school, but
they're a young teendevelopmentally they're not a
young teen, they're.
They're delayed.
So maybe they're hanging outwith or they're around or
(22:32):
they're're they considerfriendships of kids that are
younger.
We're going to bring the olderconversations across that
spectrum and it could be theymake the moaning sounds to see
what the other kids respond withbecause they're trying to
figure out.
Well, they laugh at it overhere, they're going to laugh at
it over here, right, right, andso they make the moaning sounds
(22:52):
or they they make the gesturesthey've seen other kids do, and
and then the younger kids arelike what the heck was that?
So it's better for for parents,if, if you have got that
elementary school kid, if youstart talking about it early,
very matter of fact, just likeyou would math or anything else,
(23:14):
then when what the heck is thathappens, they're going to come
to you because they're notafraid.
They're not thinking it's a hardcrush topic.
They're not those kinds ofevents.
So, yeah, it's really criticalfor all age groups to really be
having that conversation becauseof that.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, and consistently right and
consistently like.
Even like, kids before pubertyare often really fine.
Lots of them will just talk andbe super chatty.
And then they get into pubertyand adolescence and they're like
I don't need to hear this, Ialready know everything, my
personal favorite.
And so they put the brakes on.
And so just because your kidsput the brakes on, that doesn't
mean you stop talking.
(23:49):
That's a good one you don'tlike.
Just because they don't want tohear it doesn't mean you stop
talking about it.
Like, think of all the otherthings, like they need to bathe.
You don't stop.
Well, sometimes you just haveto Forget it.
Your peers will take care ofyou.
Smelling like a swamp, thegoats and farts, is what was
going on at my house.
That's true.
A lot of times that won't goaway Goats, goats and farts,
(24:16):
goats and farts, um.
So you can't give up on thisbecause they don't want to hear
it.
And again, uh, kids, your kidsare more, um, they're more at
risk, they're higher risk,they're.
They're unfortunately right andI wish I could say this was
just going to fix all that, butit's not.
And one of the places that kidskind of get into into trouble
are girls who are neurodivergent.
They mask and they do much moregoing along to get along.
(24:38):
They're diagnosed later.
Women aren't diagnosed untilthey're in their 30s or 40s,
sometimes because we mask, weknow how to go along, right.
And so we've got a 12-year-oldgirl who's operating on a
nine-year-old level and she'shanging out with other girls who
are talking about crushing andall kinds of things and she's
going to maybe say some thingsthat that they're crushing
(25:01):
things and she doesn'tunderstand what she's doing, so
she might make herselfvulnerable inadvertently.
And so now that for those ofyou who have neurodivergent and
developmentally different gals,just take a breath, um, because
this open line of communicationis what's one of the things that
can help them.
So role-playing and and sayingyou know, if you don't
understand something that'shappened, just tell me.
(25:23):
And being really clear, youwon't be in trouble.
Even if a kid tells you you'llbe in trouble, you will not be
in trouble.
We don't roll that way.
We don't.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah, and I think that that's also you know,
letting them know that there'sthat safe place, no matter what
anyone else has told you.
Yeah, and we keep.
We keep referring toneurodivergent, which is a very
large category, a little bit ofa smaller category, however,
when you and I were kind ofdiscussing this before you had
mentioned, the category issmaller but the percentage of
students affected within thatcategory is a lot larger and
(25:54):
that's like your transgendercategory, your LGBTQ, so will
you kind of explore that againfor?
Speaker 2 (26:01):
our listeners.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
It's a little bit different of a category than
just neurodivergent and I wantto make sure that we give that
the price.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
It's related to sexuality, right.
So about 2% to 3% of folks whoare autistic identify as
something other than cisgenderand straight.
So it's LGBTQ.
So cisgender means that whenyou were born, they looked at
your parts and said you're agirl because you had a vulva, or
you're a boy because you have apenis, and so that's.
(26:29):
That's what cisgender means.
We all know what straight means, right.
So it's really interesting.
And they're much more likely tobe LGBTQ, and there doesn't
appear to be a lot of researchinto why.
But the kind of reasoning isthat they don't give a crap
about social norms, right?
A lot of autistic people arelike I just am who I am, I don't
(26:49):
care.
I like that person.
I don't feel like a girl, Ifeel like a care, I like that
person.
I don't feel like a girl, Ifeel like a boy, I feel like
both.
I feel like neither Um so, or Ifeel like I'm not.
I feel like I'm a, I'm a, I'mtold I'm a girl, but I really do
feel like I'm a boy, right.
And so they have this different,um, kind of worldview of gender
and sexuality, which I think umis.
(27:10):
Honestly, I know this isprobably controversial.
I think it's probably more real.
Right, it's more real becausethey're not falling or they're
not as subject to these socialmores and our cultural stuff and
that kind of thing which,depending on what family the
child's in, can be really awfulbut for the child and really
hard on the parents, becauselots of people don't understand
(27:31):
this.
Because we are cisgender, likeI can't imagine being a boy,
right, or a guy.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
I wouldn't know how, that there are times I say to my
boys, cause they'll ask me wedo have open conversations.
They'll ask me questions aboutparts or itchings or this or
that, which is totally normalquestions for them to ask, and
there are times that I'd go.
Well, I don't know, let me callyour dad in.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
I don't have your parts and I'm not interested in
having your parts, just beingvery mindful that this is
something a big proportion ofneurodivergent folks deal with
and kids deal with.
And then here's anotherinteresting statistic.
Let me see if I can get itright Six percent of people who
are transgender are autistic.
(28:14):
Wow that's a much largerpercentage.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think it just comes backto that piece around.
I don't see the world in thesame way, like coming back to
your stinky boys, right, like Idon't care, I don't care that I
stink, like the world around youcares, I don't care.
You need to bathe, I don't care, right, cause that's really a
(28:36):
social thing that they don'tcare about.
Um, which is gross.
But there you go, um, anyway.
I'm not an expert on gettingchildren to bathe, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
And it's you know, when we talk about these topics
with children, even if yourchild is physically a girl,
emotionally girl all the thingsor a boy, they probably should
have the discussion about whattransgender is, what LGBTQ plus
(29:04):
is, and start to understand thateven early, because it will
make them a better friend.
It's going to make them not ifthe topic comes up.
So it's one of those thingsthat's really really important
for our children to to dive into, and I think that that's really
something that should be partof every conversation that we
(29:26):
have.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Absolutely, and especially like that's a
conversation when your kids arelittle about different kinds of
families, right RightRelationships, so it's
everywhere, it is never goingaway, and so just your
responsibility as a parent of aneurodivergent kid is to be just
mindful.
Okay, they might see this partof themselves differently than I
do, and there's so much helpand support for for parents of
(29:48):
queer kids, but one of the otherstatistics that I am going to
just drop in here is that,unfortunately, queer kids are
four times more likely to commitsuicide.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, that's a really importantstatistic and this can be one of
the topics that, and then youadd near divergence, you add
(30:10):
this, you add that and it'sgoing to increase that as well.
But the one thing that keepsthose kids on par with the
general population is parentalsupport.
And it's really interestingbecause parental support just
comes down a tiny bit.
There's suicide risk, it's,it's, it's higher, it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
So that for me is a big deal right, like nobody
wants their kid to do that,right, and I think everybody
would love to have a heads up,and if they know that right off
the bat this is something that'sgoing to be critical to
understand in a conversation tobe having, then it's definitely.
It's like oh, you never want tolook back as a parent and say,
if I had only known, yeah, or ifI had, if I had believed my
(30:51):
child?
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Yes, right, and.
And also it can be reallyconfusing because adolescence is
a time of trying things on andand exploring, and so you know,
you know we have kids who, likeI, lots of stories from parents
were like, okay, my daughterannounced that they are
non-binary, which means theydon't have a gender, and they
(31:12):
are using they them pronounslast week and now she's furious.
They are furious because Imisgendered them and so used she
instead of they, and then aweek later they're back to she
and then they're back to they.
So there's this exploration andstuff, and so trying to keep up
with that.
So my friend, joe Langford, whois a wonderful therapist who
(31:34):
works with boys and he says justhold it lightly, roll with it,
Ask what does that mean?
And when you misgender them oryou're super confused and
they're making you nuts withthis, you go do that with your
friends, with them.
You go do that with yourfriends, with them.
You are loving kindness andlight and trying to figure it
out right, be there for them, besupportive, and if you don't
(31:54):
get it, you can just say I justdon't get this, but I love you,
right, and we'll figure it out.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Just like you can say this is going to be an awkward
conversation.
You can say, this is notsomething I'm familiar with and
understand from your perspective, but that doesn't mean that, as
your parent, I still love you.
That doesn't mean that there'sa lack of love or a lack of
wanting to understand.
I love you.
I'm here for you.
Let's figure out how we'regoing to walk this together, and
I mean, let's admit it, theygrow up.
(32:21):
There's just times we conflictbecause they're teenagers, and
so this is really, if we justrelax and treat it as just
another area we conflict in,we're going to navigate.
I think we're going to navigateit a whole lot better than if
we get ourselves emotionalenergy.
So, yeah, that that makes a bigdifference.
I think that's a key thing tofocus on.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Oh, go ahead, just circling back.
Like this is not somethingpeople do intuitively, while
parenting is not somethingpeople do intuitively.
Let's just be clear about that.
But this is really notsomething people do intuitively.
So, learning about how to talkwith kids, understanding what
they need to know by when, um,and realizing that they
absolutely need to know, likethey should know how babies are
(33:05):
made by the time they are sixlike that needs to get out of
the way.
That is science, it's easy,right?
They should understand aboutdifferent kinds of relationships
, they should know aboutcrushing and what love is, and,
and they should know that peoplehave sex for fun.
I'm, you know, most of the timewe're having sex for fun, right
, like baby making, which youshould also be very clear that
(33:27):
we plan our pregnancies.
Pregnancies are planned, yes,absolutely.
Like just plant that seed.
Like if you're going to havesex, you're going to use birth
control.
Like just if you're going toget pregnancy can happen.
Just being really clear aboutthat and you know if that might.
If you're, if you're a personwho believes that people should
wait until they're married,until they have sex, and you
know that does not work, becauseyou might've been that person,
(33:47):
it doesn't work.
It's never worked, it neverwill worked, but you can say
what I hope for you is that youwait until you're in a loving,
committed relationship, ideallymarried.
But if that isn't, if you'reheading down that path, please
let us know.
We'll make sure you're safe andit's a good decision for you,
right, um cause you can'tcontrol them, but you can set
them up for success.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Right, and, like you said, you can tell them what
your hope and your goals are.
Yeah, that is so.
We do that in all parts, allparts of parenting.
We tell them what our hopes andgoals are for them and careers
and everything.
We should also tell them forour hopes and goals in their
sexual life, with a but.
But you're your own person,this is your life.
(34:28):
So as you navigate that, cometo me.
Let me help you Know thatpregnancies are planned.
No-transcript interjecting inthis conversation.
(34:56):
Stop talking about that, right.
It's just so many times peopledon't want to talk about it at
all and so it's such animportant part is we have to
have the birth control.
Part of the conversation, likeyou said, said it starts with,
by the time there was six thatyou said they should know how,
how sex happens.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Yeah, people agree to do it.
It feels good to their grownupbodies.
It's not for kids, it's later,for later in life.
We'll talk about it a lot, soyou feel ready for it If that's
something you want to do, andthose harder conversations about
rape and assault and and thatkind of stuff needs to come
along.
They should know.
So, like a 10, 11 year oldshould know about those awful
(35:34):
parts of of sexuality which Ican't even call those sexuality,
but those awful parts of life.
They need to know about thatbecause they're going to hear
the words yes.
And then if we kind of circleback to the porn conversation,
the porn they're going to see isviolent, it is fake, it is
racist, it is sexist, it's awful.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
It's awful, it's absolutely horrible.
It destroys the image of whatsex should be.
It absolutely destroys it.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Absolutely.
And kids think that they usethat for training.
They think that's how you dosex, because they don't have
anyone to train them Right, sothat's why we want to have the
conversation.
Yeah, right.
So being really clear, like youknow, if you have a crush on
someone, you know A, you mightneed to talk, find out if they
are crushing back and talk aboutthat.
And then when people areengaged in any kind of romantic
(36:25):
relationship, it usually startswith handholding yes, right, and
there's lots of progression,right, and porn starts in the
middle.
Like being really clear, likeporn starts in the middle.
Real people don't do thosethings.
Nobody's, nobody's body lookslike that.
They don't make those, thosenoises.
The women are not enjoying that.
They're acting like beingreally clear, that this is not
(36:47):
real.
And your child, who doesn't getit?
All he gets is that it feelsgood to watch it, right.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Doesn't get anything else, doesn't get anything else
and it's.
It's hard to explain.
Um, like I said, I have threeboys, um, one of ours is older
and he we actually took him toand I, oh my gosh, I blanked on
the name of the movie that cameout, but it was about sex
trafficking and that was part ofour.
Obviously we'd had many moreconversations before.
We just dropped him into thatmovie, but it hit him in such an
(37:23):
emotional and impactive way.
And then, at the end of thatmovie, when we were having our
discussion, when dad and I weresitting down with him and
discussing what it was part ofwhat we brought up is this is
what the porn industry is.
So and he again, much moremature level we said if you were
to watch porn, you're promotingthat industry.
Oh, my gosh, that hit home withhim in a whole new level.
(37:45):
And so it.
There was a lot leading up tothat.
Again, this was when he wasolder, um, but I do think that
if you're laying the foundationsthen, yes, you can get kids to
start to understand the deeperlevels of things.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure, and that you know
he's older, so he'd have someempathy, right.
So young kids don't haveempathy, they just don't.
They don't have empathy untilthey're what, like 10 or maybe,
if that, if they had that, sowhen he could see that, oh my
God, he could see the throughline.
The other thing that happens isthat there's this idea and
(38:31):
developmentally different kiddosthat they're not sexual, Right,
they're just not interested,they're not capable, they're not
interested, which is easy forus, okay, yeah, oh, don't need
to know.
If you're not interested,you're not capable of having a
romance.
So that's just absolutely nottrue and it's just going to look
different.
It's just absolutely not trueand it's just going to look
different.
It's just going to lookdifferent.
(38:51):
So, assuming your child has thesame urges, interests,
instincts, all of that as everyother human being is really
important because it'srespectful.
It's respectful and you know,lots of times people also think
that if you fill a kid in aboutsex, they're going to go out and
try it.
No, it's, generally speaking,not true, right, right, having
(39:12):
the information as early asyou're talking about.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
By six, they should know what sex is and then you're
building on it.
They're not going to go out andtry it because to them it's
just a normal part ofconversation.
We talk about college, we talkabout family, we talk about
family, we talk about sex, wetalk, you know, it's just part
of the evolution of growing upin conversations and so, yeah,
they're not just going to go runout there and try it because
you've talked about it, exactlyBecause they're going to do it
(39:37):
anyway.
So here's an important question.
We've talked about how do westart?
We've talked about being sixyears old.
What about my guests who have a16-year-old or a 13-year-old
and they're going?
We haven't had the conversation.
Now what?
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Okay, here's the good news.
With a person who is 12 andover, you do not need to be
careful, you don't need to saywhen a man and a woman fall in
love, none of that.
You just say to them the firstthing you say is we've blown it.
I blew it.
We should have been talking toyou about this.
We didn't know what to say.
We didn't think you were ready.
Frankly, we weren't ready.
(40:11):
I wasn't ready, but you have toknow, because there is so much
bad information about this thatI know you've heard.
Even if you think your child'sin a bubble, maybe they are.
Maybe you live in a log cabinin the middle of Montana with no
Wi-Fi and they're homeschooled.
But I'm going to guess.
No, um, like you say, you know,I know you've heard stuff and
(40:33):
it's time for us to starttalking.
I'm going to be uncomfortable,you're going to be uncomfortable
.
We will live.
Yeah, I'm going to get yourbooks.
We've got this great videos thatcan show you and we have to
talk about this because you needto be smart about it and then
throw that whole thing about.
You know, you're the smartestperson in your friend group.
It was really good, it feelsreally good and they may like,
(40:53):
they may say I already knoweverything and you say, great,
I'm sure you don't know a ton,but I don't know what you know.
So I'm going to be telling youstuff.
That's a great answer, yeah,and you know the nuts, the nuts
and bolts, bold stuff like thescience-y stuff around STIs and
pregnancy and that kind of thing, as you recall, like that's
(41:14):
just kind of book learning,right.
But it's the pieces that areconfusing about the relationship
stuff.
I mean, just think about,reflect on your own high school
years, right?
Remember how confusing that was.
And then, layer, neurodivergenceon that right Layer, some kind
of intellectual disability onthat like layer, physical
disability on that, like layerin, and it's just even more
complex.
But I'm just going to go backto this idea that you being just
(41:37):
straight and not pussyfootingaround, just talking about it is
easier and better for everyoneand no one's going to die and no
one's going to throw up.
So there's that.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Well, and I love you know, like you said, there's so
many resources out there, and sowe'll put some of the resources
on my website and, of course,I'll link to your information
too.
One of the things that I lovethat you've said over and over
again as you've said, this isfor adults, so we're going to
talk about it to prepare you.
This is for people who agreeand you've used the word agree
(42:09):
every time, and I like that.
Agree to do this.
Agree implies a discussion thatwe're not accidentally letting
this happen.
We've discussed it, we'repreparing for it, we're planning
for it, and we're planning whatwe don't want to have happen,
which is a pregnancy right now,right, so those are the things I
think you've loved about, andthen also, I love that you've
(42:31):
said be consistent, don't giveup the conversation.
Start it as early as you can andjust keep going, keep going,
keep going, even when they pushyou back to say, oh, that's okay
.
I understand that you don'twant to talk about it right now,
but I'm going to talk to you alittle bit about it anyways,
because I want to make surewe're still on the same page, or
that you, but I'm going to talkto you a little bit about it
(42:51):
anyways, because I want to makesure we're still on the same
page or that you know we'restill headed in the right
direction.
And then one of the things Ilove is you talk about it so
naturally.
Well, it's because you have alot of practice.
So would you suggest thatparents maybe practice a little
bit in the mirror, gettingcomfortable with their facial
expressions, so they're notgoing.
So there's this sex thing, youknow.
Would you suggest they practicein the mirror, or even practice
(43:12):
with each other, if they can,or a best friend themselves?
Speaker 2 (43:14):
Yeah, if you're parenting with someone
practicing in the car byyourself if you're ever in the
car by yourself, great place topractice.
I have a book called Sex Talkswith Tweens.
That's just scripts.
I actually have a person who'sa grandmother and her grandsons
come over.
She just opens it up and readsit to them.
There you go.
She reads my scripts.
It's okay, it doesn't matter.
(43:35):
They're going to think you'reweird anyway.
So if you just say I have notesbecause I'm uncomfortable,
you're also modeling how youmanage something when you feel
uncomfortable.
Right, so take notes.
The other thing, too, is if yousay something and you're talking
and you're using too many words, or you get all hot and weird
or your kid, like, runsscreaming from you, that's all
fine.
You're just going to come backand say I need to do that again.
(43:58):
I got all hot and weird and youran screaming, so use your
timer.
I'm going to set your timer.
If they have a phone which theyshould not have, a phone until
they are in the eighth or ninthgrade, set your timer.
If they have a phone which theyshould not have, a phone until
they are in the eighth or ninthgrade, set their timer and give
me three minutes and you useyour three minutes.
You can also say things like.
You do not need to respond tome.
I don't have any expectationthat you ask me questions, but
(44:19):
no matter what, when you're doneyou say anything.
What do you think?
Did you already know that?
Anything to add, you give theman opportunity to talk to you.
You don't just like I'm done.
You always give them a space totalk to you.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Yeah, exactly, I love that.
There's no expectation ofresponse but there's an
opportunity for an response.
Yes, exactly, exactly, I loveit.
And then one I would love.
I'm going to feature your bookon my website, of course.
Um one of the other books thatI brought up to you that my
husband and I have used becauseof the porn situation is we use
the good pictures, bad pictures,and we've read through this
(44:53):
more than once with our kidsEven my children, who have not
been exposed to pornography.
We've still read through thisbook with them.
So there are so many resourcesout there and I think sometimes
parents just don't know where tolook.
So obviously, I'm going to listsome, I'll link to you, you're
going to list some, I'll link toyou, you're going to list some,
and then that'll give them atleast a good launching point.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and good pictures, bad pictures is
the only book that's really goodthat's out there for kids.
Um, about, about porn exposure.
There's a junior version and aI call it the senior version, so
there's one for younger kidsand there's one for older kids.
Um, it's good information foryou too, and don't be afraid to
read it.
Don't be afraid to read it.
Like you personally might needto chunk it down, and that's
(45:33):
fine, especially if you're thechild with a short attention
span.
So just be mindful.
Like you might even only getlike two paragraphs in, that's
fine.
I mean with any of the booksand things that we recommend.
But the biggest thing here isthat you're going to do what you
can do and doing nothing is not.
It's not okay.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
Yeah, so it's just not setting them up for failure
is what it's doing.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
Yeah, and and more complication and et cetera.
So, just for yourself, um, justto get you know, kind of you,
you've just already started theparty.
You listen to us, you listen tothis conversation, right?
So, yay, one step done.
So maybe the next step is tosign up for my newsletter, or to
go get a book that we recommend, right?
(46:14):
Or to talk with your partner Ifyou're parenting with someone,
listen to this together or justsay, hey, we got to do this,
what's our plan?
Right?
And I know there's a series ofbooks.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
And if listeners are Christian, there's a series of
books.
And if they, if, if listenersare Christian, there's a series
of book called God's design forsex.
And it's a series because itliterally starts off at ages
four, five, six, and each bookis for a different chunk level,
and they do exactly what you'resaying.
Matter of fact terms.
They go over exactly how thingshappen and then they slowly
(46:47):
introduce topics.
Yeah, exactly how things happen.
And then they slowly introducetopics.
And then, even if your familydoesn't a hundred percent agree
on what the book is saying, whatthey can be doing is using that
, as, like you said, you readthe book first, go through it.
Okay, at least I know what Ineed to be talking about this
age group with my children, andnow I'm going to insert our own
values into the system Right.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
So one thing about those books I don't know how old
they are and the chunking itout is great, but just rule of
thumb for 2024 is they need toknow basically everything by the
time they start middle school.
That's a scary thought, isn'tit?
Speaker 1 (47:25):
Yeah, I mean, middle school seems so young.
But you're right, because I wasa middle school educator for 14
years and kids were having sexin the bathroom.
Yeah, they sure were, and theystill are, and now they're doing
worse.
We know it all by middle school,which means that 11 to 12 years
old 11 to 12 years old theyneed to know everything, and
that includes opening thediscussion of what is LGBTQ,
(47:48):
what is transgender.
All of that has to be known.
So if your child is six, seven,eight years old and they're
scared by the topic, you got tostart digging in fast, because
you don't have much time left.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
I mean, and the thing to remember is that the if you
get in, the sooner you get inthe door and establish yourself
as a trustworthy, knowledgeableperson, you have age appropriate
resources for them.
You're talking openly about it.
It protects them and it alsoputs you in this pretty cool
position where you can be thatparent that their friends know
(48:25):
they can talk to if somethinggoes sideways, Right, which is a
real position of honor.
And so by being open with yourchild, by being, you know,
really frankly progressive withthis and really on it, you can
help another child.
That's so wonderful.
Yeah, it's a really great spaceto be in and everybody likes to
feel like an expert, right?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (48:44):
And, like you said, even if your child becomes an
expert in the area, they mightactually be helping.
In a way they don't evenrealize, right, because they're
comfortable with a conversationthat other people aren't
comfortable with, right?
So consistent talk, that is ageappropriate.
However, by six, they shouldknow what sex is and the
mechanics of it.
(49:04):
By 11, 12, which is double thatage five, six years later, they
should know it all and thebasics of everything.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
Yeah, yeah so the book that I really love.
That is kind of everything iscalled.
It's perfectly normal and theyshould have that book and it's
going to feel like a lot, butcompared to what they're going
to be exposed to as I, as youknow it's not.
It's healthy, it's accurate andit's it's positive, like, when
people hear the phrase sexpositive, they think that that's
like advocating for peoplebeing, you know, snm and
(49:36):
swinging through the rafters andpolyamory and all that.
Sure, that's part of it, butreally what it means is that
we're kind of where you started,like sex is a positive, healthy
, wonderful, cool part of life.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
And we just need to let our kids know that it is a
part of an adult life, foradults that agree whatever is
going to happen and are preparedfor it, and we talk about it
just like we do anything elsetheir education, their future
job, their friendships,everything else because it is
the whole human Absolutely Well,Amy, I really hope that I bet
(50:09):
we're going to get a lot ofcomments and a lot of questions
and I really hope that maybe wecan schedule to have you back
sometime in the future to kindof address some of those, maybe
even take some of thosequestions and just specifically
go at it, Cause I've loved thisconversation.
I really appreciate you joiningus.
Speaker 2 (50:21):
Thank you, and thank you for trusting me with your
people.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
Oh, I'm so excited I mean I just have goosebumps from
it because I know how much it'sgoing to help so many people
out there.
Good, Thank you Me too, Thankyou, Amy.
Have a good day Me too.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
This program is made possible by friends and partners
of the Special Parent Podcast.
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