January 30, 2024 • 44 mins
Return to sport has been a hot topic in sports medicine recently. Studies continue to show that reinjury rates can be high, and athletes do not always return to previous levels of performance.
In this episode, I talk with Pete Draovitch of the Jacksonville Jaguars about his approach to return to sport, which he has published and calls the Return to Sport Clearance Continuum.
Full show notes: https://mikereinold.com/return-to-sport-with-pete-draovitch
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
On this episode of the sportsphysical therapy podcast, I'm
joined by Pete Dre of itch.
Pete is currently a performancespecialist, physical therapist
and athletic trainer for theJacksonville Jaguars.
After spending many yearsworking in so many different
prestigious positions withinbaseball, hockey, golf in that
HSS.
And this episode, we're going totalk about his framework for
(00:21):
returning athletes back tosport.
Welcome to the Sports PhysicalTherapy Podcast.
I'm your host, Mike Reinold fromMikeReinold.
com.
Hey Pete, thanks so much forjoining us on the podcast today.
How's everything going?
It's great, Mike.
Thanks for having me.
Sorry.
I couldn't, we tried to gettogether a couple of months ago.
(00:43):
It didn't work out.
So, uh, but this, this is a goodday to do it.
And I'm glad I, I could be aguest on, on your podcast
because of all the contributionsyou've made to the field and,
uh, all the great work you guysdo up at champion.
Uh, I appreciate it and, um,yeah, it's not easy to try to
find time to do stuff like this.
So, you know, thank you forthat.
(01:04):
Who would have thought it wouldhave been easier for us to find
some time in season than it wasoff season, but sometimes that's
how it is in pro sports, right?
You're right.
You're right.
Um, well, Pete, before we getinto it, I know we got a good
episode.
There's a lot of great stuff wewant to talk about.
Uh, you've really had a heck ofa career.
I think something that, youknow, most people would look up
(01:24):
to and say, that's what I wantto do when I'm.
You know, when I make it in thiscareer, and I feel like you've
done that like three, four orfive times now at this point,
you keep doing things that somepeople would be satisfied with
as the peak of their career.
That's just one of the manythings that you've done.
So why don't we start just tellme a little bit about your
background, like how you got towhere you are today.
(01:46):
And I know you've got such adiverse background.
You know, baseball and golf and,you know, a huge position at HSS
for forever.
And now all the way with theJacksonville Jaguars.
Um, why don't you walk usthrough a little bit about like
how you got here, you know,through your career and make
sure the readers understand.
Okay.
Basically, uh, I started out asa grad assistant football coach
(02:07):
at university of Delaware.
With Toby Raymond and, uh, andas you know, if you're a grad
assistant, a lot of times you'rea year older than the kids that
you're supposed to be the gradassistant for.
So whenever, so wheneveranything happened on a Saturday
night, guess who got that callfrom right?
You.
(02:28):
About after the 10th, one ofthose, I just said, you know,
there's got to be another way todo this.
So the athletic trainer at, uh,Delaware Keith handling told me,
he said, well, you could getinvolved as an athletic trainer.
So I'd taped and all atGettysburg college, what left
the bizer a long time ago.
And, uh, and so I took anatomyclass.
I, my memory was pretty good.
(02:49):
And then it just happened that Iended up, uh, finishing up.
An athletic training degree atDelaware and then then from
there I took a job at a highschool.
Out in Western Pennsylvania, uh,got a chance to go to Lehigh,
uh, with football and wrestling,and then, uh, decided that I was
working three times as hard as aPT, and making one third the
(03:12):
amount of money.
So I went to PT school and endedup...
I just got married.
My wife, I said, where do youwant to live?
Do you want to live down inNorth Carolina?
Do you want to live in St.
Louis or do you want to live inMiami?
So we ended up going to Miamiand, and then that's where
everything started from thesports standpoint.
Now you've got channels you gotto go through when you're a kid,
you got this internship, you gotto meet before you do this.
(03:34):
Back then, you just had to showthat you were willing to learn,
you worked hard and you did agood job for the people that you
were working for.
So it's like down in Miami.
Kevin O'Neill and RyanVermillion and Bill Farran and
then we were, I was there in theheyday.
So anybody that was part ofJimmy Johnson's Staff even
worse.
(03:55):
Grad assistant.
People wanted to know what wasgoing on there because it was it
was unique with the amount ofathletes we had.
And, um, and then from there, Iended up leaving football, got
involved up in West Palm Beach.
With a doc named Frank Cooke,who was served as a doc for
Montreal expos at the time, St.
(04:17):
Louis Cardinals end up coming inand making that their spring
training site.
So I knew some people from thegolf tour, Paul Hostenthal, he
introduces me to Barry Weinberg,and then I helped them out for
five years, end up going to UPMCand working with Jim Bradley and
Dr.
Fu.
Joe Maroon for, uh, five yearsup there, and I met Brian Kelly,
(04:38):
who was a fellow for MarkPhilippon, who I worked with in
Florida and who took me up toPittsburgh.
So, from there, I ended up atHSS, ended up working with the
New York Rangers for six of theten years I was up there, and
then one day, a guy from down inJacksonville, Coach Coughlin,
Had been the coach of the Giantsand during the strike season in
(05:01):
the NFL, they didn't have aplace to send their players
because they couldn't come tothe facility.
So I ended up seeing a lot ofplayers from the Giants and the
Jets.
And, uh, the guy called up from,uh, down here in Miami or in
Jacksonville named TomMasalinski.
He was their strength coach andsaid, Hey, I'm looking for a
young kid.
So I gave him three names and itjust happened to be about, I
(05:24):
don't know, maybe.
10, 15 degrees below zero.
I said, the next time you callup here, if you're, you're going
to offer a job, I said, I'mgoing to throw my name in the
hat and I was like, Hey, I'm 62now.
So I was 58 years old.
And then they called me back andsaid, Hey, would you want to
come down for an interview?
I said, I was just kidding.
(05:44):
She wants to move back toFlorida.
So that, that's what happened.
And then they brought me on tobe sort of like a hybrid between
the training room, the strengthroom, and now trying to help
interpret the sports sciencefrom a, from a rehab and a
progression standpoint.
So, so it's just I was always, Ialways tell my daughter, life's
(06:07):
about chances and choices.
And I've always changed aboutevery seven to 10 years.
And I've always tried tosurround myself with good people
like HSS.
I mean, you look at their, Dr.
Olchek, Riley Williams, Dr.
Warren, Aynsworth Allen, LisaCallahan, Josh Steins.
(06:27):
I mean, I was seeing people thatwere seeing patients that were
just, they were the premiersurgeons to go to.
So, it just always, uh, I'vealways tried to do that.
And then mentors like you guys,like, to be able to call you, to
call, call Kevin Wilk, call BobMangine, Russ Payne.
Uh, it's, it's just.
(06:49):
It's sort of crazy how it allhas worked out, but I'm still
feel young.
I still got energy.
And, uh, I like being aroundyoung people as you, as you
know, being around young people,cause they keep you going.
So they call me grandpa.
They call me every other thing,but I'm still good for one.
(07:09):
I see.
I mean, what, what an amazingstory and progression.
And, you know, if I were to takeone thing out of that, it's,
it's all about connections,right?
And it's all about not burningbridges.
It's, it's about having goodrelationships with people and,
and things will grow.
And, and, you know, I, I, I tryto advise some of the young
professionals on that is that.
(07:30):
Everybody that you're workingwith right now, um, you know,
you have an opportunity toreconnect again in the future.
So, you know, just, just becareful and try to nourish
everything you can and reallytake advantage.
And man, I can't think ofanybody that's done a better job
of that than you.
It is.
It's being inclusive.
Don't in a book, uh, uh, by the,uh, all black, uh, rugby team,
(07:53):
uh, they, they have a book out.
It's, it's a, it's a, it's aquick read.
And, uh, and one of their rulesin it is don't be a dickhead,
right?
And I'll just tell you this,you'll think of how many people
you met early in your careerthat 10 years later, 15 years
later, it circles back.
And now you've got arelationship that was formed
(08:14):
then, but now it becomes astronger bond and it's a benefit
to both of you.
I like it.
That's, that's a great phrase.
I don't know if I could make asocial media clip out of that.
I don't know if that would bethe best thing to do, but I, I
think, I think that's a, that'sa, that's a great, uh, phrase to
use and, and not enough peoplerespect that.
Right.
And hopefully they can look atsomebody like yourself and your
(08:36):
career and see how the fruits ofyour relationship making
continue to just continue to.
just build success with you isit's impressive.
So, um, tell everybody a littlebit about your role with the
Jaguars.
Cause I know a lot of peoplewant to get in the NFL.
A lot of people love football.
You know, I, I myself, I don'teven know what your day to day
is like.
It's, it's, you know, the,between the different sports,
(08:57):
it's so different, but like,what's it like in your role with
the Jaguars in the NFL?
Well, for me, it's I'm hired isP.
T.
A.
T.
C.
for the Jaguars.
Uh, and then have a little bitmore role in the sports
performance side if you want tocall it that.
But I'll go between rooms.
My main thing is I see peopleUh, as as a clinician.
(09:19):
However, I'll I'll help sit downand look and say, Okay, we got
this person going on with thisproblem.
I need them to be correctivesand then to flip them off my
plate and get them intoperformance side or let's
monitor them from a sportsscience side.
And then at the end of the day,let's interpret that or the end
of the week.
Let's interpret it and see whatwe got to change so that that
(09:41):
person doesn't break down againthis year.
So We try and meet once a weekas a seamless group of people
between rehab, performance,nutrition, and sports science,
and look at everybodycollectively so that everybody
has a collective plan andeverybody knows.
What's on the same page and theand the colleagues I have here,
(10:04):
Jeff Ferguson, he's been in theNFL.
He's with Sam Fran for a numberof years.
He's the head trainer, but, uh,Robbie Hohenschell is the
director of rehab, Chris Box,the director of sports science.
And then the other athletictrainers with me, Raul Bermudez,
Cassie Attell and Devin, uh,Witherspoon, they, they've all
been, you know, you.
(10:25):
I offer some things to them thatthey don't have, and they offer
some things to me that I don'thave.
So, um, that's, that's what wetry and do, and the focus is to
be athlete centered.
And put your, put your egos onthe side.
If you don't know something andsomebody else knows something
better about that, don't beafraid to flip that person onto
that side and say, Hey, uh, youwork, Robbie, you worked with,
(10:48):
in the NBA, you're better atfoot and ankle than I am.
Would you mind taking a look atthis for me?
So, uh, I think Ferb does a goodjob of making sure that the ship
keeps going in the rightdirection.
That's amazing.
And I think the question thatmost people listening to this
are probably going to have aboutyour role with the Jaguars is,
is Trevor Lawrence's hair asbeautiful in person as it is on
(11:12):
TV?
You should be doing head andshoulders commercial.
I've been dying to ask you thatquestion.
So, uh, but no, it's nice tohear what that's like, because a
lot of people don't understandwhat it's like to work in a high
performance department withmultidisciplinary collaboration.
Right.
And, and, you know, to be ableto, to live and breathe that is.
(11:35):
It's something really special.
And I'm sure every day you gohome and you're, you're probably
grateful that you have anopportunity to collaborate
versus having to be on an islandby yourself.
Right.
For sure.
Uh, I mean, the people that workin a clinic and they just, I
don't know how you could do itwhere you're not learning
constantly.
Like I said, I mean, I changestuff up just like you have a
(11:58):
long time, but some based on theevidence, some based on what I
see.
And again, if.
If, if you go in and you're notchallenged.
All the time.
Like I sit here, we sat heretoday looking.
Okay, we have this person thathas this problem.
What could we be doing better?
Our GM as a saying could bebetter.
And right.
(12:20):
It could be better.
So even if you're good, there'sthat little bit that might just
be the next.
And you know, at this level.
Hell, one little bit extra mightmake just the change you need to
make the hugest difference.
So we're always looking forthat.
This level of sport isn't forthe people that aren't
(12:42):
constantly thinking and arecritical thinkers and, and
really look at themselves first,as opposed to looking at all the
other people.
And right when you think youhave everything figured out, the
game changes, right?
And just in even in my brieftime in baseball, right?
Over the course of the last, youknow, three decades or so,
there's very distinct phases ofeach of those decades, right?
(13:05):
So the game keeps changing.
If we don't evolve around whatthe unique needs and goals are
of the players at that time, andwe stick to what was happening
10 years ago, we're never goingto get 1 percent better, right?
For sure.
And again, like you said, you,you've been at the forefront
with the throwing athleteforever.
And how many times have youchanged your program in the past
(13:27):
10 years?
Right.
And, and unfortunately,unfortunately, it's because of
the mistake that we made that werealized that it's not because
of the success that you have.
You, you, you, that's right.
One person go, man, I shouldn'thave done that.
And, and, but it is, it's thetruth.
And that's how you get better,but well, I think that leads us
(13:49):
into a nice little chat aboutone of your recent publications
that you've had.
Um, and it's called the returnto sport clearance continuum.
And I thought this was a reallygreat article, but more
importantly, I think it was areally nice framework to see.
And, and this is what a masterclinician does in my mind.
This is what an expert in theirfield does is they have the
(14:10):
experience to be able to come upwith frameworks.
Right.
So return to sports is alwaysgoing to be a hot topic.
Like, like what made, what kindof made you say, Hey, it's time
that I write this article.
Like, like what led todevelopment of this approach and
what made you get thispublished?
Well, I think if you look at it,there's so much, there's ad
nauseam regarding whether it's acontrol chaos continuum, it's,
(14:34):
it's, uh, Isokinetics, we'regoing to do this, this, and
this.
I just got tired of seeingpeople that were sending people
back and not having anystructure to what they were
doing other than to say, okay,they have a five out of five
muscle test.
So, I mean, in any clinic, I didit more for people that didn't
have access to the technologythat we have, then I did it for,
(14:58):
for us in general, because ifyou have, if you could to do a
white balance test.
And you could see how much aperson does a wide balance test
in the anterior direction or afront step down.
I mean, just have a system that,that looks at the general, uh,
(15:20):
breakdown of, of what a systemshould look like.
So you got repair, what happenswith the tissue?
We, we don't look at tissueintegrity enough.
And in our level, sometimes youprobably don't want to look at
that because we know that an MRIthat you take now it might look
exactly the same three monthsdown the road, even though
clinically the person doesn'tpresent like that.
(15:41):
So, again, then there's rehaband recovery there's
reconditioning there'sperformance.
And then the big thing that Isee is preseason and training
camp the person, they, theyquit.
They put them back in trainingcamp, and instead of having them
have a load management issue,they have a rep count, they have
something going on, and now theperson gets irritated in
(16:02):
training camp, and now it's fourto six weeks before they're
ready to go again.
So, we wanted just there to be astructure to say, hey, if you,
if you have.
To bring people back.
I don't care if it's high schoolcollege.
There's a movement and corething you should look at.
You should look at strength andendurance.
You got to be thinking of powerbecause if that's a sport they
play, you've got to have sometype of sports specific
(16:25):
conditioning.
How do you watch load?
I mean, kids have what kids havewatches anymore.
Even steps.
How many steps did you take?
That might tell you something.
And then we know that, uh, justan outcome score of a self
perceived outcome score in someof the literature shows that
that might be almost as good asdoing all of these metrics
(16:47):
anyway.
So, so that was, that was thepurpose of it.
And it wasn't, it wasn'tanything that's new.
It was just broken down a littledifferently.
And we said, okay.
Let's give everybody a chance todo it the right way, regardless
of what level they're at.
Well, and you built a framework,right?
So, we talk about this a lot insome of the systems that we have
(17:10):
and that we teach, but youtaught the recipe, but you can
tweak the ingredients a littlebit based on who's in front of
you, right?
You don't have to do it exactlythe way you do it, but if you
follow the framework and Putyour pieces of the puzzle into
that, then you're going to havesuccess because you follow the
framework from start to finishthat that's pretty neat.
(17:31):
Well, well, again, I think Ithink it I think it is.
I think it's common sense, butsometimes the progression is
where people get confused.
You know, some people I see theydo great in the beginning, like
using an analogy from frombaseball.
We got some really good startingpictures.
We have some good middlerelievers and we have some good
(17:52):
closers, but all of those peoplehave to depend on somebody else.
What we're saying is be thestarter, be the middle reliever
and be the closer.
If you just put it in aframework type of strategy.
Right.
And you said common sense.
But that's common sense to youbecause you've been doing this
for so long.
I think a lot of people aregoing to appreciate the way you
help them organize theirthoughts.
(18:14):
And I think that's going to bereally impactful for people as
they're going through this forthe first time, right?
You just take it for granted,Pete.
Well, again, when you do it aslong as we have, it's, it sort
of does become, and again,sometimes you got to catch
yourself to say, don't, youalways got to feel like you're
doing it for the first time, orbecause that's when you make
(18:35):
your mistakes, you get mundaneabout looking at it, and then,
then you realize, okay, this,This guy has a, uh, he had a
tibial osteotomy as anantiverted hip.
So I'm going to avoid that.
But if you forget looking atsome of those things, you end up
making some mistakes.
So again, you're right.
Love it.
Um, well, we know re injuryrates in sports can be high and
(19:00):
we often see players that don'treturn to their peak performance
too.
Why do you think that is?
Like in your experience, what'sbeen some of the reasons why
people don't return to sport aseffectively as they can?
I think, uh, if you look at it,there's, there's probably three
things in general that you'regoing to look at when you're
returning somebody to sport.
(19:21):
What can they produce force anddo they ever rate of force
development?
What's What's their quality ofmovement?
And then the third thing istheir tissue integrity.
If, if their tissue integrity isbad, and we've had people like
that, that you do everythingthat you've done for everybody
else.
And then six months later, ifit's not a hammy, it's a quad.
(19:44):
If it's not a quad, it's a calf.
So sometimes The tissueintegrity is the limiting
factor.
Sometimes people, the limitingfactor is their quality of
motion.
They have good strength, theyhave good mobility, but their,
but their software is really badand no matter how much you work
on it, it still doesn't getthere.
(20:05):
Uh, and then, and then the thirdthing is, can you, to play in
sports, can you produce forceand can you produce it fast so
that you shift the forcevelocity curve to the right?
So.
In my opinion, it could be anyone of those, whether you're
looking at force and forcevelocity and load management.
What's your quality of movement?
(20:25):
Great cook.
Great cook.
Put that together a long timeago, and people still are
looking at that still don't haveall the answers.
Now we got motion capturesystems.
We have a Dory motion capturehere and.
And, and this year it'll be onething that we find, and next
year it'll be the next thingthat we find.
But, to me, structure's alwaysinfluenced function, function
(20:47):
always has influenced,influenced performance.
So, again, those three thingsare the things that I try and
spend time on, and then try andidentify what their tissue's
like.
We got athletes that are reallytwitchy, when I get them, I,
like, you don't get many of themthat you put their tissue up and
it comes right back down.
Right.
(21:07):
So you, so you got those peoplethat are elastic, you got those
people that are more powerful,you see them jump over hurdles
and some of them look likekangaroos and then other ones,
they go up over the hurdlepowerfully, they land, they
absorb it, and then they do itagain.
So I'd say those are the threethings that you try to look at.
And sometimes you're going toget, you're hopefully guessing
(21:29):
right a lot, but sometimes you,you, You're, you're gonna miss
something, whether it'sstructure, function, movement,
tissue integrity, uh, what's hisname, said a, a great quote, uh,
in it, or his underlying messagein a paper by Arnosky in 2008, I
read it, and it made me change alot of things, and that the
(21:50):
underlying message wasunderloading during rehab meant
to overloading duringperformance, and so sometimes
people come into the, Into theperformance side and they get
blamed for the blame is put onthe performance side when really
That people in the rehab didn'tdo their job and it led to the
performance getting the blamefor it.
(22:10):
So I've always been cautious ofthat to make sure I under load.
So I'm going to make sure I haveisometrics.
I'm going to make sure I haveeccentrics.
I'm going to make sure that Ihave some type of concentric
work.
I'm going to have...
There's some velocity basedtraining.
If I see that the weight roomhas their program set up, that
they're doing a power block or ahypertrophy block that week, I'm
(22:34):
going to take the parts thatthey're not getting, and I'm
going to put it on my side.
So that their rehab component isgoing to be, it may be more
based on strength endurance.
So that that person doesn't missthat part of the program that
could actually make them failwhere they lose capacity.
So, uh, again, it's being in ita while that you get to start
(22:57):
thinking like this, but, uh, butthe Arnosky article made me
rethink a lot of stuff, probablyin 2005 to 2010.
That's another great quote.
I like it.
This is going to be an episodeof quotes.
I think it's, I think that'sawesome.
But, um, in your framework, yououtline five phases, right?
(23:17):
Of, of your return to sportclearance continuum.
Um, I thought it was alwaysgreat, you know, to, to break
things down.
I think that really helps peoplelearn the, the subject matter a
little bit better, but can youexplain to people on the podcast
and I'm going to put a link inthe show notes to the article so
people can read this, but canyou walk them through just
briefly what the five phases areand maybe what the important
characteristics of each phaseare.
(23:38):
So they have a generalunderstanding of, you know, from
start to finish what it lookslike to return to sport.
So if you get a person in andthey get injured, what's the
first thing that has to happen?
Let the body do some of the workfor you.
So you got to repair phase,right?
So.
We know about repair repairphases that the first 21 days is
when the tissue is going to bethat you could mold it.
(23:59):
But if I got a grade onehamstring, maybe after two days,
I'm going to start doing some ofthe asking stuff.
If I got a grade two, I mighttake five days because it takes
a little bit longer for that toget out of there.
But I want to get rid of theswelling.
Dr.
Fu in Pittsburgh said a greatsaying.
He says, Swelling is thespeedometer of rehab.
Because if you got swelling, itmeans something.
(24:19):
Your mechanics are wrong.
You got some kind of mechanicalproblem going on.
But again, to me, that's thephase that I'm really going to
be cautious.
I'm getting rid of as much ofthat swelling as I can.
I'll get my motion going.
And then the rehab and recoveryphase is what we traditionally
view as your clinical side.
The clinical side to me, therehab part, is when you're going
(24:41):
to start All of the things thatyou need, you got your
coordinate, you got your, yourbalance, your strength, your
range of motion, your mobilitywork.
Uh, and the recovery part is thepart I put on the athlete when,
when I was with the Rangers,with Jim Ramsey and, uh, uh, Reg
Grant, uh, Adam Virgil, what we,one of the things that we did is
(25:02):
anybody that got drafted thatyear, we gave them, uh, a, uh,
ice device.
We gave them a more pro and whatwas a pair of Norman Tech boots
and they have all the time inthe world to recover at home.
So we wanted to make sure thattheir recovery was going to be
(25:23):
good.
So that's what I mean by that.
You share that with the athletebecause there's got to be home
exercises.
We do home exercises for theseguys.
I'll tell him I need two sets of10 tonight, two sets of 15 just
to keep things going.
Reconditioning phase.
I say the reconditioning phaseis, uh, to quote Bill Knowles,
(25:44):
he said the reconditioning phaseis when the focus changes from
the injury to the athlete andBill's been doing it a long
time.
Uh, and that's where you startto say, okay, I'm going to start
leaking performance into thisside of the equation so that we
start thinking aboutconditioning, even though it
might be six weeks or eightweeks before they play.
We're thinking about loadingthem under a bar.
(26:06):
We're thinking aboutincorporating.
Uh, the next progression fromrehab exercises, what's the next
progression or regression forthe performance side?
And then from performance thatmight last three months.
Um, where we're looking at, uh,two, six week cycles, three,
(26:27):
four week cycles, whatever itmight be.
And then the last part for aperson that you're bringing back
from a post surgical or a longstanding injury is making sure
you're doing load management,rep counting during camp so they
don't swell up or they getirritated during that time.
So repair phase for me, it canlast up to 21 days based on the
(26:47):
biology of tissue.
Rehab and recovery.
I want that four to six weeksand then I'm getting them into
reconditioning no later thanfour to six weeks and then and
these all overlap, they might bedoing something for the upper
body when their lower bodieshurt that they're in performance
side already.
So, It's a, it's a fluid type ofthing, uh, but repair zero to 21
(27:10):
days, usually three to fiverehab and recovery, four to six
weeks, reconditioning, probablyfour to six weeks performance at
six to 12, uh, eight to 12 weekcycle, and then preseason camp
and get ready for that until youget to the season.
So you make it through.
Amazing.
And I can see how that frameworkis super helpful for like a long
(27:31):
term management, but walk methrough something quick, like a
lower extremity injury withthat, where let's say like a
grade one or a grade twohamstring, which I'm sure you
deal with, uh, probably weekly,right?
Like what, what, what, like howdoes that overlap and how
quickly does that progress on,on something like a grade one or
two hamstring?
So if we look at a grade one, 10to 14 days, grade two, we're
(27:51):
going to change that maybe threeto four weeks.
Now, if they get a PRP injectionor they get some other type of
stem cell or something in there,that three to four weeks might
be four to six, that one to twoweeks might be 10 to 14 days.
Might take up to three weeks,but repair there, we're going to
(28:11):
start that in that one to twodays, boom, if you're an acute
and you're in season one to twodays, and you're going to rehab
and, and, uh, recovery.
So that might take, uh, mighttake that five to seven days,
uh, reconditioning.
That's going to be quick becauseI need you running.
If you're going to do ahamstring, nothing can, nothing
can simulate.
(28:33):
Anything force wise on ahamstring other than fast
running.
So if I have a grade twohamstring, I might have a two
week buildup to get them to maxvelocity and, and high speed
yardage.
So if we look at that, we'relooking at max velocity, high
speed yardage, and we might belooking at player load based on,
on catapult data, but to me,we're going to just.
(28:54):
Speed that up so that repairsone to two days rehab recovery
grade two is going to be up tothe seven day mark.
Reconditioning is going to, ifthat's a week and then
performance is two weeks andthey're ready to go.
And that's if they don't haveany orthobiologics involved.
And then from there.
Uh, we probably slow that down alittle bit because PRP, the way
(29:14):
we do it, they give them twodays off, no heat, no, uh, cold,
uh, no real motion.
We just hit them with some, somemodalities, get them out, and
then we start them.
It's pretty amazing too, like ifyou got to do two PRPs back to
back a week apart, uh, uh, bythe second one they get the
first day after you get them,like, it's really good.
(29:36):
So again, it depends where it'sat, what part of the hamstring
it is in, is it too big to do aPRP?
Um, so, uh, but that's, that'show I break it down for
something like a hamstring.
That's great.
It's really making me want todraft more Jaguars from my
fantasy team next year because Iknow they're going to be in good
hands and they're going to getback on the field as soon as
(29:57):
they can.
I stay away from any bettingfrom what's happening.
You probably could actually haveto, I hope at least.
So, but we don't even talk aboutit.
So what's the future look likewith technology in this?
Like, so how do you reconcilesome of like the new data and
tech based things?
(30:17):
And how do you put that togetherat the pro sport level?
Cause it's probably coming toeverybody soon.
There's, there's so many ways wecan do this, but tell me a
little bit about how you usetechnology to do all this stuff
too.
Well, you've got now you've gotso many things that are out
there.
Uh, you've got, if, if you'redoing it week, weekly
measurements of power, you, yougot force plate jumping.
(30:39):
You, uh, if you got, if you gotlinemen, you might do something
a little bit different insteadof the jumps all the time, like
a half pull.
Uh, way to measure thatisometrically.
Um, the other thing is 10 80swhere you got 10 80 sprint and
you're looking at forces.
You're looking at differencesbetween right and left.
You've got things that measurepower velocity based training.
(31:02):
So there's tons of things outthere like that, uh, that help
measure those things.
You've got catapult with GPS andaccelerometers, uh, that measure
total distance, high speedyardage, uh, player load, And
they put them all intoalgorithms, of course, and
metrics that we will take andwe'll say, okay, this person
(31:24):
jumped off the force plate, theyhad a 22 percent deficit from
the right side to the left side,what are we going to do to
correct that?
And usually you don't jump atthe gun when you see these
deficits, because the person'sprobably been doing that for a
long time.
So you look at trends more up atthis level.
Where, uh, you're saying, okay,they've gone from 22 percent to
(31:49):
25 percent to 28%.
Okay.
Over a three week period.
Let's say what's going on is, dothey have something going on?
Then you eventually talk to theplayer and they'll say, yeah.
And I, I, I've been having this,uh, calf problem or this ankle
problem.
And then it, the, the, theresults 10 80 sprint.
That measures force thatmeasures speed, uh, and be able
(32:13):
to, um, force more than anythingwhere you could see the
difference between the right andthe left side person coming back
from some soft tissue.
Soft tissue is the Holy Grail inthe NFL, for the most part, just
like your shoulder stuff is inbaseball.
That, I mean that.
the calf, the quad, thehamstring, the adductor.
(32:35):
Uh, and the NFL has done areally good job of collecting
all the data between teams tocome to some of the conclusions
they have.
So we pay a lot of attention toit and we spent a lot of time on
recovery for That's awesome.
So again, I'm going to put thethe link to this article in the
show notes So you can kind ofread Pete's continuum and really
(32:56):
learn from it I think it'ssomething that everybody should
read it should be mandatory incurriculums in my mind and
something that everybody followsbut Pete before we let you go I
think this is something thatmost people probably ask you and
you get this a lot here but Iknow a lot of the listeners of
this podcast not only do theywant to get into pro sports, but
A lot of them want to getspecifically into the NFL.
(33:18):
What sort of advice do you havefor students or early career
professionals that want to breakinto the NFL and maybe get a job
in that realm?
What would you tell them?
Well, if you want to get into,into football and you're going
to get in the NFL, you got to dointernships.
So there's a summer, a summerposition that's available.
Most teams hire four to sixpeople for that.
And then you've got a seasonal.
So usually the progression issummer to seasonal.
(33:41):
Uh, You apply, uh, you apply forthat at, uh, the PFATS
professional football athletictrainer society, where they've
made it easy that you couldapply to all the teams that way.
Uh, so it's PFATS.
com or PFATS.
org.
Uh, and then you'll put yourname in and then you'll get
contacted by teams.
Most teams will interviewpeople.
(34:02):
And like I said, you go from asummer position where you start
during camp and then you end.
Usually the end of August, uh,uh, for that, that internship,
the seasonal, you start Usuallybe at the end of the following
season and you go until theseason's over, uh, maybe a
(34:23):
little bit past that.
It's usually, we have a yearcommitment, so they'll usually
go from April until April.
Um, so, but if you want to be infootball, you got to go in
football.
Uh, I've seen people make thetransition if they'd been in
other collision sports, but yougot to be in sports where you
see a lot of everything, becausethere's a lot of.
There's a lot of non contactinjuries.
(34:44):
There's a lot of overuseinjuries and there's a lot of
collision injuries.
So, um, if you want to be infootball, you should, you should
start thinking about how to dothat.
Now, uh, the other thing I'd sayis make sure you get a good
mentor.
Uh, Too many times.
I think the patience and it's aself, it, it's not a pro, it's,
it's not a problem for youngpeople, but there's self
(35:07):
gratification.
'cause you could pick up yourphone and you could find out any
bit of information that youwant.
You don't know.
It's always true, but you couldfind out, out any information
that you want.
So stay patient.
It's not an easy, it's not,you'll do a lot of stuff for
nothing and you'll do a lot ofgrunt work in the beginning.
But if you talk to the youngerpeople that are in the NFL, they
will tell you that it may havetaken three seasonal internships
(35:30):
until they were offered aposition.
So you've got to be patient ifyou want to do it.
Right.
And in the meantime, should theytry to find a collegiate
setting, at least get somefootball experience?
Heck yeah.
I always tell people if they'vebeen a seasonal one or two
years, then go, because you gotto hone your skills then,
because even when you're aseasonal, you're not, you're
treating people and you're.
(35:51):
Getting to do some mini evals,but I'd rather see somebody
that's gone and they've been incharge of Their their second in
command of a football team andnow they're doing all the evals.
They're doing the return to playon the field Because that's
that's how you start to get yoursystem worked out That's great.
(36:13):
Well, Pete, before we let yougo, we'd love to end the episode
with a high five, five quickquestions, five quick answers,
just to kind of learn a littlebit about you and your mindset a
little bit.
But first question is what areyou currently doing for your own
professional development rightnow?
Uh, for me, it's all about softtissue, and it's anything to do
with soft tissue, whether you'relooking at lengthening it,
(36:35):
you're looking at, uh, so ifit's an ART, if it's, if I'm
looking at activating it, suchas MAT, if I'm looking at
fascial, uh, points, such asstecho, so anything fasciitis,
um, From a standpoint, fascistfashion is a fascinating topic
because it's it's never reallybeen there in the in the
(36:57):
schooling that I went through,but we could see its connection
and what its relationship is themuscle now and how it transfers
forces and kinetic linkingregional interdependence and
what it all means.
So.
But soft tissue right now islike the, the thing that I spend
most of my time on.
(37:17):
Thankfully for the jaguars too,right?
Because that, that's your,that's your number one goal.
What's one thing that yourecently changed your mind
about?
Uh, that I've changed my mindabout?
Um, I'd say that I've gotten alittle bit better at recognizing
(37:39):
that the body will do more Andthen I need to push that a
person needs to do somethingevery second, every day to get
better.
Sometimes it needs rest and restis the thing that it gets least
of in sport.
So that would be the one thingI've allowed more rest.
I'll do less.
And the other thing in ourworld, guess what happens?
(38:02):
They don't only get treatmentwith us, they're getting
treatment outside of the placeby their group of people that's
helped them along the way.
So I've always thought stayingin communication with them is
important and I fill in the gap.
So if they're not gettingstrength, I'm going to spend my
time on strength.
So I've done a better job, Ithink, of that.
But the main thing is, uh,again, being more patient with
(38:27):
knowing that this, this is howlong it actually takes.
Healing's biology.
It's not technology.
Oh, good one.
I love it.
Well, there's already been somany gems in this episode, but
what's your favorite piece ofadvice that you love to give
students?
Uh, basically be patient andfind a good mentor because it's
(38:48):
like I said, I mean, I went, Iwent through as a, uh, a
graduate assistant footballcoach.
a student trainer at GettysburgCollege, a athletic training
student at University ofDelaware to a high school, to a,
uh, to a college at Lehigh, andended up going to PT school at
(39:08):
Miami.
And what happened, somecircumstances happened down
there, and I was just going tobe helping out.
Well, what happened is oneperson had to end up leaving,
and now instead of wanting me tohelp, they needed me to help.
So that was my end.
So you never know when that'sgoing to happen.
And again, timing's everything.
(39:30):
Mike will tell you, timing iseverything.
For sure.
I love it.
What's coming up next for you?
I mean, do we, have you workedin the NBA yet?
Or is that, is that on thedocket or what's next?
No, at HSS, we saw a lot ofbasketball players.
No, I'm, I'm in the, I'm in thetwilight right now.
I figure if I could do thisanother three or four years, I'd
(39:50):
be happy.
And then I'll sit down and I'mgoing to put something together.
Uh, that that just spells outthe seamlessness for people to
be able to look at so that theydon't make the same mistakes
that I did that.
Like I said, it might be 34years.
But, uh, but again, I'll becalling you because I don't know
(40:13):
that there's anybody in, in, inthe rehab world for sure.
And he may be even in medicinethat's figured out how to do it
as well as you have.
And people don't realize howmuch time he put in.
You're a clinician.
The reason I respect guys likeyou and, and, and Voight and,
and people like that is you'renot only out here talking.
(40:34):
You're not only putting stuffout there, but your clinicians,
you're on the floor, you're inthe so you see when things
change.
I really don't respect anybodythat goes out and does all the
talking.
They're academic based, but theydon't see anybody.
I don't have being honest.
I don't have any respect forthose people because I mean,
(40:55):
look, look at you.
You're you're you go.
You talk about performance andyou put a performance program
together for people.
Why?
Because you were in it.
Some people are out theretalking about return to sport
and they've never in a weightroom.
They were never on a field andnever told me what to do.
I'm you.
I, I, I, I And that's why I'mexcited.
(41:17):
So I, I'm not in a rush for youto, to move on from the Jaguars,
but I'm excited for you toproduce that next thing.
Cause I do think a lot of peoplecan learn from that experience.
So that's awesome.
But, um, Pete, where can peoplelearn more about you?
Are you on social mediaanywhere?
Is there anywhere?
I know, obviously we can findyou on, you know, some of your
articles on PubMed and stuff,but is there anywhere people can
go to find more about you?
(41:37):
I haven't, I haven't done that.
I'm old school yet.
You know, I'll be knocking onyour door in about three years
when I think about this upbecause you've done it better
than anybody.
And, uh, but, but right now, andagain, in the NFL, we try to,
you know, Again, uh, you make anobligation to the team.
(41:58):
You don't want to share certainthings.
It's, it's not necessarilyproprietary when you're writing,
but what it is, is it, it's,it's a competitive advantage
when you know something thatsomeone else might not know.
That's right.
Yeah.
It's tough.
I've been, I've been patientwith controlling the commercial
side of what could happen asopposed to, uh, just doing what
(42:21):
I'm supposed to do now.
That's great.
That's great.
Well, awesome.
Well, Pete, thank you so much.
And good luck the rest of theseason.
Um, that was a ton of greatwisdom and experience that you
shared.
I think people are going to geta lot out of it.
Be sure to go to the show notesand check out the link to Pete's
article and learn more about hisreturn to sport continuum.
I thought that was a really neatarticle that I wanted to talk
(42:41):
about.
And again, thank you so much forjoining us.
Thanks for having me, Mike.
Appreciate it.
Good luck with heat for you too.
Boom.
On this episode of the sportsphysical therapy podcast, I'm
joined by Pete Dre of itch.
Pete is currently a performancespecialist, physical therapist
and athletic trainer for theJacksonville Jaguars.
After spending many yearsworking in so many different
prestigious positions withinbaseball, hockey, golf in that
HSS.
And this episode, we're going totalk about his framework for
(00:21):
returning athletes back tosport.
Welcome to the Sports PhysicalTherapy Podcast.
I'm your host, Mike Reinold fromMikeReinold.
com.
Hey Pete, thanks so much forjoining us on the podcast today.
How's everything going?
It's great, Mike.
Thanks for having me.
Sorry.
I couldn't, we tried to gettogether a couple of months ago.
(00:43):
It didn't work out.
So, uh, but this, this is a goodday to do it.
And I'm glad I, I could be aguest on, on your podcast
because of all the contributionsyou've made to the field and,
uh, all the great work you guysdo up at champion.
Uh, I appreciate it and, um,yeah, it's not easy to try to
find time to do stuff like this.
So, you know, thank you forthat.
(01:04):
Who would have thought it wouldhave been easier for us to find
some time in season than it wasoff season, but sometimes that's
how it is in pro sports, right?
You're right.
You're right.
Um, well, Pete, before we getinto it, I know we got a good
episode.
There's a lot of great stuff wewant to talk about.
Uh, you've really had a heck ofa career.
I think something that, youknow, most people would look up
(01:24):
to and say, that's what I wantto do when I'm.
You know, when I make it in thiscareer, and I feel like you've
done that like three, four orfive times now at this point,
you keep doing things that somepeople would be satisfied with
as the peak of their career.
That's just one of the manythings that you've done.
So why don't we start just tellme a little bit about your
background, like how you got towhere you are today.
(01:46):
And I know you've got such adiverse background.
You know, baseball and golf and,you know, a huge position at HSS
for forever.
And now all the way with theJacksonville Jaguars.
Um, why don't you walk usthrough a little bit about like
how you got here, you know,through your career and make
sure the readers understand.
Okay.
Basically, uh, I started out asa grad assistant football coach
(02:07):
at university of Delaware.
With Toby Raymond and, uh, andas you know, if you're a grad
assistant, a lot of times you'rea year older than the kids that
you're supposed to be the gradassistant for.
So whenever, so wheneveranything happened on a Saturday
night, guess who got that callfrom right?
You.
(02:28):
About after the 10th, one ofthose, I just said, you know,
there's got to be another way todo this.
So the athletic trainer at, uh,Delaware Keith handling told me,
he said, well, you could getinvolved as an athletic trainer.
So I'd taped and all atGettysburg college, what left
the bizer a long time ago.
And, uh, and so I took anatomyclass.
I, my memory was pretty good.
(02:49):
And then it just happened that Iended up, uh, finishing up.
An athletic training degree atDelaware and then then from
there I took a job at a highschool.
Out in Western Pennsylvania, uh,got a chance to go to Lehigh,
uh, with football and wrestling,and then, uh, decided that I was
working three times as hard as aPT, and making one third the
(03:12):
amount of money.
So I went to PT school and endedup...
I just got married.
My wife, I said, where do youwant to live?
Do you want to live down inNorth Carolina?
Do you want to live in St.
Louis or do you want to live inMiami?
So we ended up going to Miamiand, and then that's where
everything started from thesports standpoint.
Now you've got channels you gotto go through when you're a kid,
you got this internship, you gotto meet before you do this.
(03:34):
Back then, you just had to showthat you were willing to learn,
you worked hard and you did agood job for the people that you
were working for.
So it's like down in Miami.
Kevin O'Neill and RyanVermillion and Bill Farran and
then we were, I was there in theheyday.
So anybody that was part ofJimmy Johnson's Staff even
worse.
(03:55):
Grad assistant.
People wanted to know what wasgoing on there because it was it
was unique with the amount ofathletes we had.
And, um, and then from there, Iended up leaving football, got
involved up in West Palm Beach.
With a doc named Frank Cooke,who was served as a doc for
Montreal expos at the time, St.
(04:17):
Louis Cardinals end up coming inand making that their spring
training site.
So I knew some people from thegolf tour, Paul Hostenthal, he
introduces me to Barry Weinberg,and then I helped them out for
five years, end up going to UPMCand working with Jim Bradley and
Dr.
Fu.
Joe Maroon for, uh, five yearsup there, and I met Brian Kelly,
(04:38):
who was a fellow for MarkPhilippon, who I worked with in
Florida and who took me up toPittsburgh.
So, from there, I ended up atHSS, ended up working with the
New York Rangers for six of theten years I was up there, and
then one day, a guy from down inJacksonville, Coach Coughlin,
Had been the coach of the Giantsand during the strike season in
(05:01):
the NFL, they didn't have aplace to send their players
because they couldn't come tothe facility.
So I ended up seeing a lot ofplayers from the Giants and the
Jets.
And, uh, the guy called up from,uh, down here in Miami or in
Jacksonville named TomMasalinski.
He was their strength coach andsaid, Hey, I'm looking for a
young kid.
So I gave him three names and itjust happened to be about, I
(05:24):
don't know, maybe.
10, 15 degrees below zero.
I said, the next time you callup here, if you're, you're going
to offer a job, I said, I'mgoing to throw my name in the
hat and I was like, Hey, I'm 62now.
So I was 58 years old.
And then they called me back andsaid, Hey, would you want to
come down for an interview?
I said, I was just kidding.
(05:44):
She wants to move back toFlorida.
So that, that's what happened.
And then they brought me on tobe sort of like a hybrid between
the training room, the strengthroom, and now trying to help
interpret the sports sciencefrom a, from a rehab and a
progression standpoint.
So, so it's just I was always, Ialways tell my daughter, life's
(06:07):
about chances and choices.
And I've always changed aboutevery seven to 10 years.
And I've always tried tosurround myself with good people
like HSS.
I mean, you look at their, Dr.
Olchek, Riley Williams, Dr.
Warren, Aynsworth Allen, LisaCallahan, Josh Steins.
(06:27):
I mean, I was seeing people thatwere seeing patients that were
just, they were the premiersurgeons to go to.
So, it just always, uh, I'vealways tried to do that.
And then mentors like you guys,like, to be able to call you, to
call, call Kevin Wilk, call BobMangine, Russ Payne.
Uh, it's, it's just.
(06:49):
It's sort of crazy how it allhas worked out, but I'm still
feel young.
I still got energy.
And, uh, I like being aroundyoung people as you, as you
know, being around young people,cause they keep you going.
So they call me grandpa.
They call me every other thing,but I'm still good for one.
(07:09):
I see.
I mean, what, what an amazingstory and progression.
And, you know, if I were to takeone thing out of that, it's,
it's all about connections,right?
And it's all about not burningbridges.
It's, it's about having goodrelationships with people and,
and things will grow.
And, and, you know, I, I, I tryto advise some of the young
professionals on that is that.
(07:30):
Everybody that you're workingwith right now, um, you know,
you have an opportunity toreconnect again in the future.
So, you know, just, just becareful and try to nourish
everything you can and reallytake advantage.
And man, I can't think ofanybody that's done a better job
of that than you.
It is.
It's being inclusive.
Don't in a book, uh, uh, by the,uh, all black, uh, rugby team,
(07:53):
uh, they, they have a book out.
It's, it's a, it's a, it's aquick read.
And, uh, and one of their rulesin it is don't be a dickhead,
right?
And I'll just tell you this,you'll think of how many people
you met early in your careerthat 10 years later, 15 years
later, it circles back.
And now you've got arelationship that was formed
(08:14):
then, but now it becomes astronger bond and it's a benefit
to both of you.
I like it.
That's, that's a great phrase.
I don't know if I could make asocial media clip out of that.
I don't know if that would bethe best thing to do, but I, I
think, I think that's a, that'sa, that's a great, uh, phrase to
use and, and not enough peoplerespect that.
Right.
And hopefully they can look atsomebody like yourself and your
(08:36):
career and see how the fruits ofyour relationship making
continue to just continue to.
just build success with you isit's impressive.
So, um, tell everybody a littlebit about your role with the
Jaguars.
Cause I know a lot of peoplewant to get in the NFL.
A lot of people love football.
You know, I, I myself, I don'teven know what your day to day
is like.
It's, it's, you know, the,between the different sports,
(08:57):
it's so different, but like,what's it like in your role with
the Jaguars in the NFL?
Well, for me, it's I'm hired isP.
T.
A.
T.
C.
for the Jaguars.
Uh, and then have a little bitmore role in the sports
performance side if you want tocall it that.
But I'll go between rooms.
My main thing is I see peopleUh, as as a clinician.
(09:19):
However, I'll I'll help sit downand look and say, Okay, we got
this person going on with thisproblem.
I need them to be correctivesand then to flip them off my
plate and get them intoperformance side or let's
monitor them from a sportsscience side.
And then at the end of the day,let's interpret that or the end
of the week.
Let's interpret it and see whatwe got to change so that that
(09:41):
person doesn't break down againthis year.
So We try and meet once a weekas a seamless group of people
between rehab, performance,nutrition, and sports science,
and look at everybodycollectively so that everybody
has a collective plan andeverybody knows.
What's on the same page and theand the colleagues I have here,
(10:04):
Jeff Ferguson, he's been in theNFL.
He's with Sam Fran for a numberof years.
He's the head trainer, but, uh,Robbie Hohenschell is the
director of rehab, Chris Box,the director of sports science.
And then the other athletictrainers with me, Raul Bermudez,
Cassie Attell and Devin, uh,Witherspoon, they, they've all
been, you know, you.
(10:25):
I offer some things to them thatthey don't have, and they offer
some things to me that I don'thave.
So, um, that's, that's what wetry and do, and the focus is to
be athlete centered.
And put your, put your egos onthe side.
If you don't know something andsomebody else knows something
better about that, don't beafraid to flip that person onto
that side and say, Hey, uh, youwork, Robbie, you worked with,
(10:48):
in the NBA, you're better atfoot and ankle than I am.
Would you mind taking a look atthis for me?
So, uh, I think Ferb does a goodjob of making sure that the ship
keeps going in the rightdirection.
That's amazing.
And I think the question thatmost people listening to this
are probably going to have aboutyour role with the Jaguars is,
is Trevor Lawrence's hair asbeautiful in person as it is on
(11:12):
TV?
You should be doing head andshoulders commercial.
I've been dying to ask you thatquestion.
So, uh, but no, it's nice tohear what that's like, because a
lot of people don't understandwhat it's like to work in a high
performance department withmultidisciplinary collaboration.
Right.
And, and, you know, to be ableto, to live and breathe that is.
(11:35):
It's something really special.
And I'm sure every day you gohome and you're, you're probably
grateful that you have anopportunity to collaborate
versus having to be on an islandby yourself.
Right.
For sure.
Uh, I mean, the people that workin a clinic and they just, I
don't know how you could do itwhere you're not learning
constantly.
Like I said, I mean, I changestuff up just like you have a
(11:58):
long time, but some based on theevidence, some based on what I
see.
And again, if.
If, if you go in and you're notchallenged.
All the time.
Like I sit here, we sat heretoday looking.
Okay, we have this person thathas this problem.
What could we be doing better?
Our GM as a saying could bebetter.
And right.
(12:20):
It could be better.
So even if you're good, there'sthat little bit that might just
be the next.
And you know, at this level.
Hell, one little bit extra mightmake just the change you need to
make the hugest difference.
So we're always looking forthat.
This level of sport isn't forthe people that aren't
(12:42):
constantly thinking and arecritical thinkers and, and
really look at themselves first,as opposed to looking at all the
other people.
And right when you think youhave everything figured out, the
game changes, right?
And just in even in my brieftime in baseball, right?
Over the course of the last, youknow, three decades or so,
there's very distinct phases ofeach of those decades, right?
(13:05):
So the game keeps changing.
If we don't evolve around whatthe unique needs and goals are
of the players at that time, andwe stick to what was happening
10 years ago, we're never goingto get 1 percent better, right?
For sure.
And again, like you said, you,you've been at the forefront
with the throwing athleteforever.
And how many times have youchanged your program in the past
(13:27):
10 years?
Right.
And, and unfortunately,unfortunately, it's because of
the mistake that we made that werealized that it's not because
of the success that you have.
You, you, you, that's right.
One person go, man, I shouldn'thave done that.
And, and, but it is, it's thetruth.
And that's how you get better,but well, I think that leads us
(13:49):
into a nice little chat aboutone of your recent publications
that you've had.
Um, and it's called the returnto sport clearance continuum.
And I thought this was a reallygreat article, but more
importantly, I think it was areally nice framework to see.
And, and this is what a masterclinician does in my mind.
This is what an expert in theirfield does is they have the
(14:10):
experience to be able to come upwith frameworks.
Right.
So return to sports is alwaysgoing to be a hot topic.
Like, like what made, what kindof made you say, Hey, it's time
that I write this article.
Like, like what led todevelopment of this approach and
what made you get thispublished?
Well, I think if you look at it,there's so much, there's ad
nauseam regarding whether it's acontrol chaos continuum, it's,
(14:34):
it's, uh, Isokinetics, we'regoing to do this, this, and
this.
I just got tired of seeingpeople that were sending people
back and not having anystructure to what they were
doing other than to say, okay,they have a five out of five
muscle test.
So, I mean, in any clinic, I didit more for people that didn't
have access to the technologythat we have, then I did it for,
(14:58):
for us in general, because ifyou have, if you could to do a
white balance test.
And you could see how much aperson does a wide balance test
in the anterior direction or afront step down.
I mean, just have a system that,that looks at the general, uh,
(15:20):
breakdown of, of what a systemshould look like.
So you got repair, what happenswith the tissue?
We, we don't look at tissueintegrity enough.
And in our level, sometimes youprobably don't want to look at
that because we know that an MRIthat you take now it might look
exactly the same three monthsdown the road, even though
clinically the person doesn'tpresent like that.
(15:41):
So, again, then there's rehaband recovery there's
reconditioning there'sperformance.
And then the big thing that Isee is preseason and training
camp the person, they, theyquit.
They put them back in trainingcamp, and instead of having them
have a load management issue,they have a rep count, they have
something going on, and now theperson gets irritated in
(16:02):
training camp, and now it's fourto six weeks before they're
ready to go again.
So, we wanted just there to be astructure to say, hey, if you,
if you have.
To bring people back.
I don't care if it's high schoolcollege.
There's a movement and corething you should look at.
You should look at strength andendurance.
You got to be thinking of powerbecause if that's a sport they
play, you've got to have sometype of sports specific
(16:25):
conditioning.
How do you watch load?
I mean, kids have what kids havewatches anymore.
Even steps.
How many steps did you take?
That might tell you something.
And then we know that, uh, justan outcome score of a self
perceived outcome score in someof the literature shows that
that might be almost as good asdoing all of these metrics
(16:47):
anyway.
So, so that was, that was thepurpose of it.
And it wasn't, it wasn'tanything that's new.
It was just broken down a littledifferently.
And we said, okay.
Let's give everybody a chance todo it the right way, regardless
of what level they're at.
Well, and you built a framework,right?
So, we talk about this a lot insome of the systems that we have
(17:10):
and that we teach, but youtaught the recipe, but you can
tweak the ingredients a littlebit based on who's in front of
you, right?
You don't have to do it exactlythe way you do it, but if you
follow the framework and Putyour pieces of the puzzle into
that, then you're going to havesuccess because you follow the
framework from start to finishthat that's pretty neat.
(17:31):
Well, well, again, I think Ithink it I think it is.
I think it's common sense, butsometimes the progression is
where people get confused.
You know, some people I see theydo great in the beginning, like
using an analogy from frombaseball.
We got some really good startingpictures.
We have some good middlerelievers and we have some good
(17:52):
closers, but all of those peoplehave to depend on somebody else.
What we're saying is be thestarter, be the middle reliever
and be the closer.
If you just put it in aframework type of strategy.
Right.
And you said common sense.
But that's common sense to youbecause you've been doing this
for so long.
I think a lot of people aregoing to appreciate the way you
help them organize theirthoughts.
(18:14):
And I think that's going to bereally impactful for people as
they're going through this forthe first time, right?
You just take it for granted,Pete.
Well, again, when you do it aslong as we have, it's, it sort
of does become, and again,sometimes you got to catch
yourself to say, don't, youalways got to feel like you're
doing it for the first time, orbecause that's when you make
(18:35):
your mistakes, you get mundaneabout looking at it, and then,
then you realize, okay, this,This guy has a, uh, he had a
tibial osteotomy as anantiverted hip.
So I'm going to avoid that.
But if you forget looking atsome of those things, you end up
making some mistakes.
So again, you're right.
Love it.
Um, well, we know re injuryrates in sports can be high and
(19:00):
we often see players that don'treturn to their peak performance
too.
Why do you think that is?
Like in your experience, what'sbeen some of the reasons why
people don't return to sport aseffectively as they can?
I think, uh, if you look at it,there's, there's probably three
things in general that you'regoing to look at when you're
returning somebody to sport.
(19:21):
What can they produce force anddo they ever rate of force
development?
What's What's their quality ofmovement?
And then the third thing istheir tissue integrity.
If, if their tissue integrity isbad, and we've had people like
that, that you do everythingthat you've done for everybody
else.
And then six months later, ifit's not a hammy, it's a quad.
(19:44):
If it's not a quad, it's a calf.
So sometimes The tissueintegrity is the limiting
factor.
Sometimes people, the limitingfactor is their quality of
motion.
They have good strength, theyhave good mobility, but their,
but their software is really badand no matter how much you work
on it, it still doesn't getthere.
(20:05):
Uh, and then, and then the thirdthing is, can you, to play in
sports, can you produce forceand can you produce it fast so
that you shift the forcevelocity curve to the right?
So.
In my opinion, it could be anyone of those, whether you're
looking at force and forcevelocity and load management.
What's your quality of movement?
(20:25):
Great cook.
Great cook.
Put that together a long timeago, and people still are
looking at that still don't haveall the answers.
Now we got motion capturesystems.
We have a Dory motion capturehere and.
And, and this year it'll be onething that we find, and next
year it'll be the next thingthat we find.
But, to me, structure's alwaysinfluenced function, function
(20:47):
always has influenced,influenced performance.
So, again, those three thingsare the things that I try and
spend time on, and then try andidentify what their tissue's
like.
We got athletes that are reallytwitchy, when I get them, I,
like, you don't get many of themthat you put their tissue up and
it comes right back down.
Right.
(21:07):
So you, so you got those peoplethat are elastic, you got those
people that are more powerful,you see them jump over hurdles
and some of them look likekangaroos and then other ones,
they go up over the hurdlepowerfully, they land, they
absorb it, and then they do itagain.
So I'd say those are the threethings that you try to look at.
And sometimes you're going toget, you're hopefully guessing
(21:29):
right a lot, but sometimes you,you, You're, you're gonna miss
something, whether it'sstructure, function, movement,
tissue integrity, uh, what's hisname, said a, a great quote, uh,
in it, or his underlying messagein a paper by Arnosky in 2008, I
read it, and it made me change alot of things, and that the
(21:50):
underlying message wasunderloading during rehab meant
to overloading duringperformance, and so sometimes
people come into the, Into theperformance side and they get
blamed for the blame is put onthe performance side when really
That people in the rehab didn'tdo their job and it led to the
performance getting the blamefor it.
(22:10):
So I've always been cautious ofthat to make sure I under load.
So I'm going to make sure I haveisometrics.
I'm going to make sure I haveeccentrics.
I'm going to make sure that Ihave some type of concentric
work.
I'm going to have...
There's some velocity basedtraining.
If I see that the weight roomhas their program set up, that
they're doing a power block or ahypertrophy block that week, I'm
(22:34):
going to take the parts thatthey're not getting, and I'm
going to put it on my side.
So that their rehab component isgoing to be, it may be more
based on strength endurance.
So that that person doesn't missthat part of the program that
could actually make them failwhere they lose capacity.
So, uh, again, it's being in ita while that you get to start
(22:57):
thinking like this, but, uh, butthe Arnosky article made me
rethink a lot of stuff, probablyin 2005 to 2010.
That's another great quote.
I like it.
This is going to be an episodeof quotes.
I think it's, I think that'sawesome.
But, um, in your framework, yououtline five phases, right?
(23:17):
Of, of your return to sportclearance continuum.
Um, I thought it was alwaysgreat, you know, to, to break
things down.
I think that really helps peoplelearn the, the subject matter a
little bit better, but can youexplain to people on the podcast
and I'm going to put a link inthe show notes to the article so
people can read this, but canyou walk them through just
briefly what the five phases areand maybe what the important
characteristics of each phaseare.
(23:38):
So they have a generalunderstanding of, you know, from
start to finish what it lookslike to return to sport.
So if you get a person in andthey get injured, what's the
first thing that has to happen?
Let the body do some of the workfor you.
So you got to repair phase,right?
So.
We know about repair repairphases that the first 21 days is
when the tissue is going to bethat you could mold it.
(23:59):
But if I got a grade onehamstring, maybe after two days,
I'm going to start doing some ofthe asking stuff.
If I got a grade two, I mighttake five days because it takes
a little bit longer for that toget out of there.
But I want to get rid of theswelling.
Dr.
Fu in Pittsburgh said a greatsaying.
He says, Swelling is thespeedometer of rehab.
Because if you got swelling, itmeans something.
(24:19):
Your mechanics are wrong.
You got some kind of mechanicalproblem going on.
But again, to me, that's thephase that I'm really going to
be cautious.
I'm getting rid of as much ofthat swelling as I can.
I'll get my motion going.
And then the rehab and recoveryphase is what we traditionally
view as your clinical side.
The clinical side to me, therehab part, is when you're going
(24:41):
to start All of the things thatyou need, you got your
coordinate, you got your, yourbalance, your strength, your
range of motion, your mobilitywork.
Uh, and the recovery part is thepart I put on the athlete when,
when I was with the Rangers,with Jim Ramsey and, uh, uh, Reg
Grant, uh, Adam Virgil, what we,one of the things that we did is
(25:02):
anybody that got drafted thatyear, we gave them, uh, a, uh,
ice device.
We gave them a more pro and whatwas a pair of Norman Tech boots
and they have all the time inthe world to recover at home.
So we wanted to make sure thattheir recovery was going to be
(25:23):
good.
So that's what I mean by that.
You share that with the athletebecause there's got to be home
exercises.
We do home exercises for theseguys.
I'll tell him I need two sets of10 tonight, two sets of 15 just
to keep things going.
Reconditioning phase.
I say the reconditioning phaseis, uh, to quote Bill Knowles,
(25:44):
he said the reconditioning phaseis when the focus changes from
the injury to the athlete andBill's been doing it a long
time.
Uh, and that's where you startto say, okay, I'm going to start
leaking performance into thisside of the equation so that we
start thinking aboutconditioning, even though it
might be six weeks or eightweeks before they play.
We're thinking about loadingthem under a bar.
(26:06):
We're thinking aboutincorporating.
Uh, the next progression fromrehab exercises, what's the next
progression or regression forthe performance side?
And then from performance thatmight last three months.
Um, where we're looking at, uh,two, six week cycles, three,
(26:27):
four week cycles, whatever itmight be.
And then the last part for aperson that you're bringing back
from a post surgical or a longstanding injury is making sure
you're doing load management,rep counting during camp so they
don't swell up or they getirritated during that time.
So repair phase for me, it canlast up to 21 days based on the
(26:47):
biology of tissue.
Rehab and recovery.
I want that four to six weeksand then I'm getting them into
reconditioning no later thanfour to six weeks and then and
these all overlap, they might bedoing something for the upper
body when their lower bodieshurt that they're in performance
side already.
So, It's a, it's a fluid type ofthing, uh, but repair zero to 21
(27:10):
days, usually three to fiverehab and recovery, four to six
weeks, reconditioning, probablyfour to six weeks performance at
six to 12, uh, eight to 12 weekcycle, and then preseason camp
and get ready for that until youget to the season.
So you make it through.
Amazing.
And I can see how that frameworkis super helpful for like a long
(27:31):
term management, but walk methrough something quick, like a
lower extremity injury withthat, where let's say like a
grade one or a grade twohamstring, which I'm sure you
deal with, uh, probably weekly,right?
Like what, what, what, like howdoes that overlap and how
quickly does that progress on,on something like a grade one or
two hamstring?
So if we look at a grade one, 10to 14 days, grade two, we're
(27:51):
going to change that maybe threeto four weeks.
Now, if they get a PRP injectionor they get some other type of
stem cell or something in there,that three to four weeks might
be four to six, that one to twoweeks might be 10 to 14 days.
Might take up to three weeks,but repair there, we're going to
(28:11):
start that in that one to twodays, boom, if you're an acute
and you're in season one to twodays, and you're going to rehab
and, and, uh, recovery.
So that might take, uh, mighttake that five to seven days,
uh, reconditioning.
That's going to be quick becauseI need you running.
If you're going to do ahamstring, nothing can, nothing
can simulate.
(28:33):
Anything force wise on ahamstring other than fast
running.
So if I have a grade twohamstring, I might have a two
week buildup to get them to maxvelocity and, and high speed
yardage.
So if we look at that, we'relooking at max velocity, high
speed yardage, and we might belooking at player load based on,
on catapult data, but to me,we're going to just.
(28:54):
Speed that up so that repairsone to two days rehab recovery
grade two is going to be up tothe seven day mark.
Reconditioning is going to, ifthat's a week and then
performance is two weeks andthey're ready to go.
And that's if they don't haveany orthobiologics involved.
And then from there.
Uh, we probably slow that down alittle bit because PRP, the way
(29:14):
we do it, they give them twodays off, no heat, no, uh, cold,
uh, no real motion.
We just hit them with some, somemodalities, get them out, and
then we start them.
It's pretty amazing too, like ifyou got to do two PRPs back to
back a week apart, uh, uh, bythe second one they get the
first day after you get them,like, it's really good.
(29:36):
So again, it depends where it'sat, what part of the hamstring
it is in, is it too big to do aPRP?
Um, so, uh, but that's, that'show I break it down for
something like a hamstring.
That's great.
It's really making me want todraft more Jaguars from my
fantasy team next year because Iknow they're going to be in good
hands and they're going to getback on the field as soon as
(29:57):
they can.
I stay away from any bettingfrom what's happening.
You probably could actually haveto, I hope at least.
So, but we don't even talk aboutit.
So what's the future look likewith technology in this?
Like, so how do you reconcilesome of like the new data and
tech based things?
(30:17):
And how do you put that togetherat the pro sport level?
Cause it's probably coming toeverybody soon.
There's, there's so many ways wecan do this, but tell me a
little bit about how you usetechnology to do all this stuff
too.
Well, you've got now you've gotso many things that are out
there.
Uh, you've got, if, if you'redoing it week, weekly
measurements of power, you, yougot force plate jumping.
(30:39):
You, uh, if you got, if you gotlinemen, you might do something
a little bit different insteadof the jumps all the time, like
a half pull.
Uh, way to measure thatisometrically.
Um, the other thing is 10 80swhere you got 10 80 sprint and
you're looking at forces.
You're looking at differencesbetween right and left.
You've got things that measurepower velocity based training.
(31:02):
So there's tons of things outthere like that, uh, that help
measure those things.
You've got catapult with GPS andaccelerometers, uh, that measure
total distance, high speedyardage, uh, player load, And
they put them all intoalgorithms, of course, and
metrics that we will take andwe'll say, okay, this person
(31:24):
jumped off the force plate, theyhad a 22 percent deficit from
the right side to the left side,what are we going to do to
correct that?
And usually you don't jump atthe gun when you see these
deficits, because the person'sprobably been doing that for a
long time.
So you look at trends more up atthis level.
Where, uh, you're saying, okay,they've gone from 22 percent to
(31:49):
25 percent to 28%.
Okay.
Over a three week period.
Let's say what's going on is, dothey have something going on?
Then you eventually talk to theplayer and they'll say, yeah.
And I, I, I've been having this,uh, calf problem or this ankle
problem.
And then it, the, the, theresults 10 80 sprint.
That measures force thatmeasures speed, uh, and be able
(32:13):
to, um, force more than anythingwhere you could see the
difference between the right andthe left side person coming back
from some soft tissue.
Soft tissue is the Holy Grail inthe NFL, for the most part, just
like your shoulder stuff is inbaseball.
That, I mean that.
the calf, the quad, thehamstring, the adductor.
(32:35):
Uh, and the NFL has done areally good job of collecting
all the data between teams tocome to some of the conclusions
they have.
So we pay a lot of attention toit and we spent a lot of time on
recovery for That's awesome.
So again, I'm going to put thethe link to this article in the
show notes So you can kind ofread Pete's continuum and really
(32:56):
learn from it I think it'ssomething that everybody should
read it should be mandatory incurriculums in my mind and
something that everybody followsbut Pete before we let you go I
think this is something thatmost people probably ask you and
you get this a lot here but Iknow a lot of the listeners of
this podcast not only do theywant to get into pro sports, but
A lot of them want to getspecifically into the NFL.
(33:18):
What sort of advice do you havefor students or early career
professionals that want to breakinto the NFL and maybe get a job
in that realm?
What would you tell them?
Well, if you want to get into,into football and you're going
to get in the NFL, you got to dointernships.
So there's a summer, a summerposition that's available.
Most teams hire four to sixpeople for that.
And then you've got a seasonal.
So usually the progression issummer to seasonal.
(33:41):
Uh, You apply, uh, you apply forthat at, uh, the PFATS
professional football athletictrainer society, where they've
made it easy that you couldapply to all the teams that way.
Uh, so it's PFATS.
com or PFATS.
org.
Uh, and then you'll put yourname in and then you'll get
contacted by teams.
Most teams will interviewpeople.
(34:02):
And like I said, you go from asummer position where you start
during camp and then you end.
Usually the end of August, uh,uh, for that, that internship,
the seasonal, you start Usuallybe at the end of the following
season and you go until theseason's over, uh, maybe a
(34:23):
little bit past that.
It's usually, we have a yearcommitment, so they'll usually
go from April until April.
Um, so, but if you want to be infootball, you got to go in
football.
Uh, I've seen people make thetransition if they'd been in
other collision sports, but yougot to be in sports where you
see a lot of everything, becausethere's a lot of.
There's a lot of non contactinjuries.
(34:44):
There's a lot of overuseinjuries and there's a lot of
collision injuries.
So, um, if you want to be infootball, you should, you should
start thinking about how to dothat.
Now, uh, the other thing I'd sayis make sure you get a good
mentor.
Uh, Too many times.
I think the patience and it's aself, it, it's not a pro, it's,
it's not a problem for youngpeople, but there's self
(35:07):
gratification.
'cause you could pick up yourphone and you could find out any
bit of information that youwant.
You don't know.
It's always true, but you couldfind out, out any information
that you want.
So stay patient.
It's not an easy, it's not,you'll do a lot of stuff for
nothing and you'll do a lot ofgrunt work in the beginning.
But if you talk to the youngerpeople that are in the NFL, they
will tell you that it may havetaken three seasonal internships
(35:30):
until they were offered aposition.
So you've got to be patient ifyou want to do it.
Right.
And in the meantime, should theytry to find a collegiate
setting, at least get somefootball experience?
Heck yeah.
I always tell people if they'vebeen a seasonal one or two
years, then go, because you gotto hone your skills then,
because even when you're aseasonal, you're not, you're
treating people and you're.
(35:51):
Getting to do some mini evals,but I'd rather see somebody
that's gone and they've been incharge of Their their second in
command of a football team andnow they're doing all the evals.
They're doing the return to playon the field Because that's
that's how you start to get yoursystem worked out That's great.
(36:13):
Well, Pete, before we let yougo, we'd love to end the episode
with a high five, five quickquestions, five quick answers,
just to kind of learn a littlebit about you and your mindset a
little bit.
But first question is what areyou currently doing for your own
professional development rightnow?
Uh, for me, it's all about softtissue, and it's anything to do
with soft tissue, whether you'relooking at lengthening it,
(36:35):
you're looking at, uh, so ifit's an ART, if it's, if I'm
looking at activating it, suchas MAT, if I'm looking at
fascial, uh, points, such asstecho, so anything fasciitis,
um, From a standpoint, fascistfashion is a fascinating topic
because it's it's never reallybeen there in the in the
(36:57):
schooling that I went through,but we could see its connection
and what its relationship is themuscle now and how it transfers
forces and kinetic linkingregional interdependence and
what it all means.
So.
But soft tissue right now islike the, the thing that I spend
most of my time on.
(37:17):
Thankfully for the jaguars too,right?
Because that, that's your,that's your number one goal.
What's one thing that yourecently changed your mind
about?
Uh, that I've changed my mindabout?
Um, I'd say that I've gotten alittle bit better at recognizing
(37:39):
that the body will do more Andthen I need to push that a
person needs to do somethingevery second, every day to get
better.
Sometimes it needs rest and restis the thing that it gets least
of in sport.
So that would be the one thingI've allowed more rest.
I'll do less.
And the other thing in ourworld, guess what happens?
(38:02):
They don't only get treatmentwith us, they're getting
treatment outside of the placeby their group of people that's
helped them along the way.
So I've always thought stayingin communication with them is
important and I fill in the gap.
So if they're not gettingstrength, I'm going to spend my
time on strength.
So I've done a better job, Ithink, of that.
But the main thing is, uh,again, being more patient with
(38:27):
knowing that this, this is howlong it actually takes.
Healing's biology.
It's not technology.
Oh, good one.
I love it.
Well, there's already been somany gems in this episode, but
what's your favorite piece ofadvice that you love to give
students?
Uh, basically be patient andfind a good mentor because it's
(38:48):
like I said, I mean, I went, Iwent through as a, uh, a
graduate assistant footballcoach.
a student trainer at GettysburgCollege, a athletic training
student at University ofDelaware to a high school, to a,
uh, to a college at Lehigh, andended up going to PT school at
(39:08):
Miami.
And what happened, somecircumstances happened down
there, and I was just going tobe helping out.
Well, what happened is oneperson had to end up leaving,
and now instead of wanting me tohelp, they needed me to help.
So that was my end.
So you never know when that'sgoing to happen.
And again, timing's everything.
(39:30):
Mike will tell you, timing iseverything.
For sure.
I love it.
What's coming up next for you?
I mean, do we, have you workedin the NBA yet?
Or is that, is that on thedocket or what's next?
No, at HSS, we saw a lot ofbasketball players.
No, I'm, I'm in the, I'm in thetwilight right now.
I figure if I could do thisanother three or four years, I'd
(39:50):
be happy.
And then I'll sit down and I'mgoing to put something together.
Uh, that that just spells outthe seamlessness for people to
be able to look at so that theydon't make the same mistakes
that I did that.
Like I said, it might be 34years.
But, uh, but again, I'll becalling you because I don't know
(40:13):
that there's anybody in, in, inthe rehab world for sure.
And he may be even in medicinethat's figured out how to do it
as well as you have.
And people don't realize howmuch time he put in.
You're a clinician.
The reason I respect guys likeyou and, and, and Voight and,
and people like that is you'renot only out here talking.
(40:34):
You're not only putting stuffout there, but your clinicians,
you're on the floor, you're inthe so you see when things
change.
I really don't respect anybodythat goes out and does all the
talking.
They're academic based, but theydon't see anybody.
I don't have being honest.
I don't have any respect forthose people because I mean,
(40:55):
look, look at you.
You're you're you go.
You talk about performance andyou put a performance program
together for people.
Why?
Because you were in it.
Some people are out theretalking about return to sport
and they've never in a weightroom.
They were never on a field andnever told me what to do.
I'm you.
I, I, I, I And that's why I'mexcited.
(41:17):
So I, I'm not in a rush for youto, to move on from the Jaguars,
but I'm excited for you toproduce that next thing.
Cause I do think a lot of peoplecan learn from that experience.
So that's awesome.
But, um, Pete, where can peoplelearn more about you?
Are you on social mediaanywhere?
Is there anywhere?
I know, obviously we can findyou on, you know, some of your
articles on PubMed and stuff,but is there anywhere people can
go to find more about you?
(41:37):
I haven't, I haven't done that.
I'm old school yet.
You know, I'll be knocking onyour door in about three years
when I think about this upbecause you've done it better
than anybody.
And, uh, but, but right now, andagain, in the NFL, we try to,
you know, Again, uh, you make anobligation to the team.
(41:58):
You don't want to share certainthings.
It's, it's not necessarilyproprietary when you're writing,
but what it is, is it, it's,it's a competitive advantage
when you know something thatsomeone else might not know.
That's right.
Yeah.
It's tough.
I've been, I've been patientwith controlling the commercial
side of what could happen asopposed to, uh, just doing what
(42:21):
I'm supposed to do now.
That's great.
That's great.
Well, awesome.
Well, Pete, thank you so much.
And good luck the rest of theseason.
Um, that was a ton of greatwisdom and experience that you
shared.
I think people are going to geta lot out of it.
Be sure to go to the show notesand check out the link to Pete's
article and learn more about hisreturn to sport continuum.
I thought that was a really neatarticle that I wanted to talk
(42:41):
about.
And again, thank you so much forjoining us.
Thanks for having me, Mike.
Appreciate it.
Good luck with heat for you too.
Boom.
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