May 2, 2023 • 46 mins
When developing well-rounded athletes, it’s important not to overlook the qualities associated with training with maximum intent. This could be from sprints, jumps, medicine balls, and more.
In this episode, I’m joined by Zach Dechant from TCU. We talk about training baseball athletes, setting the stage for athletic success, and using sprints and velocity work to train with max intent.
Full show notes: https://mikereinold.com/sprints-and-training-with-max-intent-with-zach-dechant
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
On this episode of the sportsphysical therapy podcast.
I am joined by Zach daikon.
Zack's the assistant athleticdirector of human performance at
TCU and oversees the baseballand sports performance
internship program.
And this episode, we talk abouttraining baseball athletes.
Setting the stage for athleticsuccess and using sprints in
velocity, where to train withmax intent.
Mike (00:32):
Hey Zach, how's it going?
Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for joining.
Zach (00:35):
Yeah.
I appreciate it, Mike.
Um, I've, I've been a, uh, longtime, uh, fan of all your work,
so I appreciate you having meon.
It's a real.
Mike (00:42):
Yeah, no, likewise.
Uh, we've talked in the past andit's really been great to, to
get to know you a little bit andbend your ear a little bit, to
be honest with you, and, andlearn from you because, uh, I
really, really like your.
I like your style, like yourcoaching style, like your
educational style.
It's, it's really been been funto learn from you, um, over the
years and all the great stuffyou're doing from, uh, T C U
(01:05):
baseball and all that stuff.
So, uh, it's an honor to haveyou, uh, on the program.
So, um, You know, why don't westart with that.
Uh, you know, t c u baseball'sprobably your, your primary
concern.
I know you have some upper levelmanagement type stuff where you
help run the department.
You run the internship programat T C U a little bit.
Um, uh, tell me a little bitabout that.
How'd you get started working inbaseball?
(01:26):
Was it, was it intentional?
Did you, did you love baseball?
Did you just fall into it?
Zach (01:32):
Yeah, that's a a great question.
I actually just talked aboutthis with my interns this
morning.
You know, I played collegefootball.
and a job came open when I wasging at Missouri State
University.
Uh, my alma mater, uh, with theLA Angels and the, at the time
my head strength coach wasmaking the move to Notre Dame.
And when you're a ga you, youlook for anything that's gonna
(01:54):
pay you real money, right?
And so I jumped at this job togo to, to, to Arizona to work
with the angels and, and got it.
Spent two years there.
And what I told my internstoday, cuz they asked me, they
said, how did you really getinto.
I wanted to be a footballstrength coach forever.
I left the angels, went to theUniversity of Wyoming for six
months as a football strengthcoach, and the job at T C U came
(02:16):
open and it was football andbaseball.
I had football experience,obviously because I played the,
uh, the, the, the head coach,Jim Schloss, NLE at the time at
Texas a and m now wantedsomebody who had been in pro
ball.
So I, I was a perfect fit andreally baseball just kind of
happened.
Um, I never thought this wouldbe my.
And the reason that I, I told myinterns today, it became a niche
(02:38):
for me was because I was veryoutside the box when it comes to
training baseball athletes.
I trained'em like football, liketrack and field.
Um, that, that's how I trained'em.
I trained'em like athletesversus at the time when I was
back in pro ball in, in 2000,you know, that was 2006, 2007,
there were minor leak facilitiesin Arizona that didn't even have
(02:59):
weight.
that had no weight room attachedto it whatsoever.
Or they had a, uh, series ofmachines.
At the time I was with theAngels, we had 15 hammer
strength machines, and it wasone set
Mike (03:11):
Yeah.
Zach (03:11):
20 reps on every machine down the line.
And so I was, that, that was howI kind of made I made my way in
baseball was that I believed inspeed development.
I believed in like sprinting ourguys in acceleration and all
the, the common training things.
Mike (03:28):
Yeah,
Zach (03:29):
think of today.
And
Mike (03:30):
That's
Zach (03:30):
that's, yeah, that's just what you do with athletes.
But back then I was like, I was,I was, I was the crazy guy off
on, you know, the back fieldsdoing acceleration work
Mike (03:40):
Right.
Zach (03:40):
he doing?
Um,
Mike (03:43):
and the, and the, the, the coaches probably freaked Right.
When you're out there actuallytrying to help the players get
better.
Right.
And, and they're used to doingthose, those planet fitness
circuit machines, right.
Is what that sounded like.
Right.
Like that must have been a, abig shift.
Yeah.
Zach (03:55):
A hundred percent.
And so we used to do barefootwarmups.
This is back in 2006.
Barefoot warmups temple runswithout your shoes on.
I mean, the fields aremeticulously maintained in
Arizona.
Right?
Beautiful fields.
And I had a coach that was inhis late seventies, early
eighties come out and scream upand down at me because these
kids were gonna step on glass ornails or something in the
(04:18):
outfield and tear their, feet upand weren't gonna be able to
play.
And I.
I mean, these, these fields areunbelievable.
Who, where's their, where'stheir glass on the field?
But,
Mike (04:30):
there's
Zach (04:30):
so I would, again, I was just getting beaten up for the,
the ideas and the, uh, methodsthat I used to use back then.
So,
Mike (04:38):
That's funny.
Well, so let, let, let's hear alittle bit more about that.
So, if somebody coming from thefootball world going into
baseball, uh, what are some ofthe things that you think, um,
somebody needs to consider towork with baseball athletes?
You, you talked about treating'em like athletes cuz they are
Right.
But are there some uniqueconsiderations that you, you use
with baseball players things?
(05:00):
you, you try to really emphasizeand maybe some things that you
try to avoid, or do you justtreat'em like everybody?
Zach (05:06):
Yeah, I mean, it's a.
Both.
Right.
One of the things that I'velearned over the last, whatever
it's been, 16 plus years in, inbaseball, is just the ability to
have some feel.
Um, that's one of the big thingsthat I think that some of my
interns sometimes miss out onwhen they go into pro ball is
they don't realize you gotta,there's a little bit of a
(05:29):
baseball feel you gotta have.
Right.
Walking into a, a locker room tothe training situation that
baseball is as far as the, uh,actual training.
The big differences for me focusaround the spine.
Pars fractures for us are ahuge, huge issue that we see at
the high school level, thejunior college level.
Um, you know, an example is sixout of 12 athletes we had in an
(05:51):
incoming class one time hadcurrent or previous pars
fractures.
So we have to be very, verycognizant of the spine.
the pelvis.
That's where everything startsfor us.
The pelvis is the foundation.
It's the first thing we teach inthe, uh, in the, um, foundation
program that I, you know, that Idetailed in movement over Max's.
Um, and then obviously you,you've talked about it, you
(06:12):
know, I, I'm, I'm following yourwork with the shoulder.
We have to be very, verycognizant of the shoulder, um,
because football and, and, uh,and, and the demands that are
put on baseball athletes arevery, very, very d.
you need that functional armorup top.
A lot of times with footballathletes, they're not, they're
not overhead, they're notspecialized in anything there.
(06:33):
And so, uh, you gotta be very,very conscious of the, of the
shoulder, the scapula, therotator cuff.
We, we know those things.
Mike (06:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Make, makes sense.
And, and it's interesting youbring up the spine.
Um, have you, have you seen thatincrease lately?
Is that going up in your mind?
Zach (06:50):
Um, for us, I would actually say it's probably.
here at T C U I would say it'sprobably going down or maybe
staying the same, I guess.
Um, we sought really, really badin, let's say, probably around
2010 to 2015, and maybe that wasjust because we were starting to
figure out what it was.
(07:11):
Here's what would happen in, Ithink my early years, 2008 to
2010, we would get athletes intothe weight room.
I would screen'em with the f m.
And, uh, to be honest, at thetime I really didn't know what
pars fractures were probably.
So I didn't know how to findthose in my initial screen, even
though there, there's theextension based test that, that,
uh, goes along with the pushupthat you could probably weed
(07:32):
that out in.
I just didn't know how to askthe right questions, which now I
do, I know how to dig deeper.
Um, but we get these athletes inand they'd be on campus for
three, four weeks.
They're training every day withus.
They're swinging every.
they're doing a ton of skillwork that they're not used to.
And so what happens, their parsfracture flares up and a lot of
(07:53):
times you didn't know that theyhad this previous injury from
six months ago that they didn'ttell you about or a year ago.
And so it flares up.
And so the first thing a coachor anybody on in your
organization thinks is, well,they got hurt.
You know, we're not reallypracticing yet.
They probably got hurt in theweight room.
It's squatting, it's it'sdeadlifting, it's something
along that, along those lines,and.
(08:15):
the coaching staff and I wouldbutt heads a lot because they
always wanted attribute back tothe weight room.
Yeah, you heard'em in the weightroom, now you're squatting too
much, you're doing too manydeadlifts, whatever the case is.
Um, but then we started bringingin smarter people than all of
us.
And you know, we, we've gotspecialists in every area as far
as the shoulder, the spine, thehip, um, medical specialists
(08:35):
that work with us.
Our, um, our spine orthobasically came in, presented.
We, we talked back and forth tohim.
I mean, we're very, very close.
And he's, he told us, he's like,here's what's happening.
You've got pars fractures.
I see gymnasts, I see N F Llinemen.
Um, I see, you know, all walksof life.
Have these issues there.
Here's where they're comingfrom.
Here's what we need to do to, toprevent this, or whatever the
(08:56):
case was, and started opening upour, uh, minds.
So what these problems were sothat we could find'em ahead of
time.
And really what it comes down tois me asking the right questions
before our athletes ever stepunder a bar or put a baseball
bat in their hand.
It's, it's digging deeper to seeif they've really ever had any
injuries that we need to referout to have them looked at
(09:17):
before we start doing thisstuff.
So it's, the screening processis what's changed for me.
Um, let's find it before we, we,uh, do something stupid and, and
somebody gets hurt.
After that it, it became, youknow, eliminating back squat.
A lot of the extension basedstuff that we do, it's been
modifying that.
So that's why I became a hugefront squat guy.
(09:38):
Um, and then even since then,we've modified even more, more
so continual con, continualimprovement, hopefully.
Mike (09:47):
Yeah.
And you, you know, the reasonwhy I ask too is I, I do feel
like I've started to see this alittle bit more in our, uh,
probably more our high schoolathletes than our college
athletes.
And, you know, you gotta wonder,you know, the whole world is
just focused on numbers.
They're focused on exitvelocity.
They are taking max effortswings.
All freaking winter now.
(10:07):
Right.
Where, where, where they weren'tin high school before.
They weren't doing that.
And you just, you wonder howmuch that's a part of it, but
um, you know, great uniquenessof our sport.
Zach (10:17):
right?
So, and one of the reasons Ithink you are seeing that more,
and I could be wrong, but you'rein the Northeast, right?
Cold weather 10, 20 years ago,the training wasn't what it is
today because of social media,really, because of companies
that can do remote training andall these other things.
So in my opinion, Uh, Ipresented actually in
(10:38):
Philadelphia.
This was probably 7, 8, 9 yearsago, something like that.
And I talked about this.
I presented on par fractures andhow we work around those.
And most of the coaches therehad never heard of it.
The PTs, the strength coacheshad no clue what I was talking
about.
And then I realized it's becausewe're in the south.
My kids are playing baseballyear round, which they do.
(10:58):
They play baseball year roundhere.
It's a warm weather climate.
but the coaches that I weremeeting, that I was meeting from
the north in any cold areas hadno clue what par fractures were
because they, a lot of'em hadmulti-sport athletes or the, the
athletes didn't participate in,in baseball during the winter
months, and so they didn't see'em.
And so that could be why you areseeing more is just because
(11:19):
remote programs, athletes knowthat they need to train year
round now, and so now they'redoing skill work year round up
there.
That could be the.
Mike (11:26):
Yeah, I mean this, this, this, this, uh, early youth
special specialization is justbecoming more and more prominent
in, in probably all of the, our.
Our areas of the country.
Uh, but we're definitely seeingit.
We're seeing kids just not tryout for winter sports anymore
and just get ready for baseballand, you know, I actually think
that's acceptable at a certainpoint of development.
(11:46):
Right.
But, um, it's happening earlierand earlier and, and there was
actually a study that's justpublished that shows us, like we
have kids as young as 10, 11,12.
They're starting to specializein, in one sport already.
Um, yeah, I can just imaginewhat what that does to somebody,
especially as.
Growth spurts and, andmaturation periods are different
in different people.
Right.
So somebody just does it at thewrong time and, and, you know,
(12:08):
they're, they're outta luck.
Right.
It's, it's, it's, it, it's thenature of the game we're playing
with now, but, um, As a collegestrength coach, right?
Somebody that's working at thecollege level, what percentage
of athletes coming into you, andyou guys are a great program, so
it's not like, you know, thisis, these are not motivated
athletes, but what percentage ofthe athletes coming into you,
(12:29):
uh, have a very low trainingage, you think?
Are there, are, are we startingto, to see them all get after it
in high school?
Now?
Are you still seeing some peoplethat it's relatively.
Zach (12:40):
So it has, uh, it has greatly improved since I
started.
So this is starting my 16thseason and really along the same
line of, of, uh, of, uh, thepars fractures issue I just
talked about 10 years ago.
I would have athletes that camein that had never, honestly
never been taught to squat.
That's where the movement overmax is, the foundation program
all came from, because I had somany high school athletes that
(13:02):
had never hinged, had neversquatted.
At one time I had an Emeril Bguy who was throwing 99 mile an
hour, this was seven or eightyears ago.
And I told him, I said, youknow, we're gonna go in and
hinge and do an R D l.
And he was like, what?
He had never in his life beentold what a hinge was or an R D
L.
He had never been taught eitherof'em.
This guy was at the highestlevel throwing 99 mile an hour.
(13:24):
Um, yeah, it used to be a realproblem anymore.
I don't see it that much.
Mike (13:29):
Oh, nice.
That's
Zach (13:30):
yeah.
Virtually every guy that we havecome into our program and.
One of the benefits, I justtalked to a bunch of coaches
this morning.
One of the benefits of writingmovement over Max's, and I'm not
trying to plug this here on theshow by any means,
Mike (13:42):
No, you
Zach (13:43):
of the, one of the benefits of that has been that
all of our incoming athletes,Either hear about it or know
about it by the book, and aretrained through that program by
either themselves or theircoaching staff before they get
on, before they get on campus.
So my, the kids coming in knowthe five, you know, big patterns
that we're gonna focus on.
(14:03):
They've already been trained init.
And so my work is, it's, it's alot easier if
Mike (14:07):
You, you, you built, you built an on-ramp program for
your incoming freshman.
I mean, that's actually aninteresting way to think about
it, right?
All right.
So, you know, and I'll, I'llplug it for you because I, you
know, uh, Zach's got a productmovement over Max's, and one of
the big things in it is hisfoundations program, which I
just thought was brilliant.
The way you've laid it out here,it's a foundation program that's
(14:29):
designed to take somebody, um,you, you have to graduate.
through foundations before youcan start to get to some
advanced training.
And I think everybody wants tojump to the latest and greatest
and the cool things they see onthe internet.
Um, and everybody's gonnaprogress through different
pillars in those foundationsdifferently, right?
They may be great at Hinge, butnot so great at Squad, for
(14:49):
example.
Um, I really love the way yououtline that.
So if you're looking to, to getinto some, some baseball
strength and conditioning stuff,uh, Zach's movement over Max's
program is, is, is fantastic foryou to check out and, and
follow.
Yourself, give it to yourathletes.
Uh, it's a great program.
But, um, so my follow upquestion for that then, Zach.
(15:10):
So these guys are coming in witha training age.
Uh, how many of them do youthink are doing things well
though?
So are they just, are they justgoing to the gym and like you
said, just putting strength ontop of dysfunction?
Or are they actually coming inand going through your
foundation program successfullyand doing a good job?
Uh, what are you seeing in, inthe last few?
Zach (15:31):
Yeah.
Um, you're still gonna see someof the, some of the things where
it's, there's a lot ofbreakdowns and movement and it
becomes, The weight on the barbthat matters.
Um, I still see that all thetime.
I still hear it from kids.
Kids.
Uh, we set the standard whenthey come in that, that you're
essentially gonna move throughthe program at our pace, at my
(15:54):
pace.
So I dictate the weight on thebarbell for almost everybody.
We educate all of our athletesand R PEs and, and what they
need to feel in the movement sothat we can get quality movement
first and foremost.
This year has.
as good of, uh, any years thatI've had with any incoming
class.
As far as, uh, movementproficiency goes, we moved very
(16:16):
quickly through it and we havesome really, really strong guys.
Strength for us is just abyproduct of the consistency in
our habits.
That's really all it is.
If you are consistent in yourhabits, you move really, really
well.
The strength is gonna come.
It's, it's falling out of a boatand hitting water.
Super, super, super easy.
So the message for the listenersout there, That have young
(16:38):
athletes, high school agedathletes, you don't have to
chase strength at the at allcosts.
You don't have to chase strengthat all costs.
It will come if your athletesare consistent in their habits,
that's all they have to do.
Mike (16:52):
and nothing will come quick and easy.
Right.
You, it's, it, it's, it's aboutthat persistence.
I agree.
Zach (16:58):
Exactly.
And the consistency breaks downso often, especially in season
for high school athletes, we seeit here all the time.
They train their tail off in theoff season.
Soon as the in season hits, Ican't do it.
The summer comes, I got, uh, youknow, I've got select teams and
travel teams and all this stuff,so I can't do it then.
But guess what, when Septembercomes back around, I'm gonna
(17:18):
train really, really hard untilDecember.
and then, you know, seasons kindof, kind of ramp up and then I,
I'll be done for another six orseven months.
And you're like, you do, do youunderstand how much, how many,
how many gains you're leaving onthe table by not training
consistently for six or sevenmonths.
It's just, it's crazy to me.
Mike (17:37):
Yeah, I, it, it's so shortsighted.
And, and you know, I, I, the,the more I do this, the more I
come across people that I justthink I'd put'em in a bucket of
they don't like working out.
And I, I dunno if it's theeffort, they don't like the
soreness, but, uh, that can't beit because you, you shouldn't
get sore once you get going intoa program.
I don't know what it is aboutit, but some people just don't
(17:58):
like the.
Right.
And, and I don't know, I, I, I,I don't, I don't know how to
handle those people, but, youknow, I've seen some really
successful major League baseballplayers that were like that.
So, you know, it, it, it'sstinks.
We're frustrated because wethink, like you said, that we're
leaving some gains on the table,but, um, unfortunately you come
across'em every now and then.
Zach (18:18):
Yeah.
Yeah, you do.
And really it's a lot of times,you know, it's with the high
school athletes, it's not thehigh school athletes fault.
Mike (18:24):
Mm-hmm.
Zach (18:25):
talk to high school athletes, I've.
That are like, yeah, I'd love towork out in season, but my
parents, you know, we, it'sjust, we, we don't have the time
and, and you know, I don't havea high school aged athlete, so I
don't know what it's likedriving'em all over town, I
suppose.
Mike (18:39):
it's pretty, it's pretty bad actually.
Zach (18:41):
yeah, so I gotta, ima I hear horror stories, but, um, at
the same time, if, if you'rereally concerned that much about
their development, then thatneeds to be a piece of it in my.
Mike (18:52):
Right.
Yeah, I, I agree.
And we're getting better, right?
I think the community around usgets it.
I think the local towns aroundus and, you know, Boston has a
lot of good, you know, prominentstrength and conditioning
facilities, so that's probablypart of it too.
But like, I think it spreads,right?
Like you have a couple ofplayers on a team that they get
after it one off season, andthen they spread the word with
(19:13):
their friends and teammates and,you know, hopefully it sticks.
But, um, So we talked aboutmovement.
I like that movement over maxes,which is, you know, such a great
phrase.
Right?
A good way of saying that.
So clearly when, when people arecoming into you, you like to
look at their movement, uh,what, what other type of testing
do you like to do other thanjust their, their movement
skills.
You know, what do you do withincoming freshmen or, or what do
(19:35):
you do as re revals and, and howmuch you actually testing them
versus just tracking theirtraining data over the course of
the.
Zach (19:43):
Yeah, that's what it really is.
Um, it, it, it.
It is testing through training.
Um, that's, that's the big thingfor us, especially with speed
work.
You know, we track speed, power,and strength.
Um, as far as the speed workgoes, we, uh, we use the Tony
Hauler method where we're, uh,we're basically recording, uh,
what does he call it?
(20:03):
Rank record and publish I think.
So we.
We have a, uh, electronic timingsystem.
We time the guys in their speedwork all the time.
We time them every week whenwe're doing our Max V, um, our,
our max velocity work.
Uh, again, I talked to the, tothe baseball, uh, coaches today
about this.
Um, we wanna make sure we'revery, very frequent with our,
(20:24):
uh, with our, um, max velocity.
When we're training MaxVelocity, sorry, I'm running
through a thousand thoughtshere, Mike.
When we're training Max, maxvelocity, we wanna make sure
that we have, um, a stimulusabout every week and we record
and, uh, and, um, time thosethose runs because objective
(20:45):
information creates intent withall of our athletes, and I
wanted our athletes to berunning their very fastest.
So our big focus on any of thattesting stuff is gonna be.
And we just do it.
We, we set the timing gates upevery week and we test that as
far as, uh, power numbers go,we've got force plates, we've
got jump pads, all that type ofstuff.
Again, it's, it's testingthrough training.
(21:05):
We put jumps in the middle of,uh, of a, a, a set of squats.
As a complex, you'll go over andjump.
And we'll record those numbers.
We'll just record'em on a weeklybasis.
Did we see the trend going up?
Great.
Did we see the trend going down?
Okay, let's, let's have anintervention here.
Um, we have our forest platesthat we use less frequently just
because of the time that ittakes so that we can get, you
(21:26):
know, all the metrics involved,gives us, um, with power outputs
and, and, uh, forces and thingslike that.
Um, but really that's, that'swhat it is.
It's training, it's testingthrough training, and not
training to test.
Um, I talked about it real quickwith our interns this morning.
So we actually had two guys thatwent up and tested a single on
(21:47):
their bench press today.
And, you know, that's hearsay,right?
Doing a one rep max on a, on abench press.
But I, I used this as a learningmoment for our interns who just
started, uh, this past week.
These guys were moving the barreally, really, really fast on a
tendo unit.
We were at 90.
and they were hitting speedsthat were 0.5 to 0.6 meters per
(22:08):
second on a Tinder unit, whichif you don't know, that's moving
the bar fast at 90%, which tellsme, Hey, they've got plenty in
the tank.
So I said to these two athletes,I said, do you guys wanna work
up and hit a few singles?
Yeah, sure, coach.
I feel great.
So we let these guys work up andthey both hit 20 plus pounds
over what their, their, theirnumber set for, uh, bench press
(22:28):
was.
And we've never maxed'em.
It's always just kind of aworking max based on what we.
So they ended up hitting, uh, wehad a 300 and a two 80 from two
outfielders today.
And so I pulled my interns asideand I said, this is why you
don't do like a one rep maxtesting day.
You have athletes.
Mike (22:49):
right?
Zach (22:50):
It's, it's terrible because no athlete, they're not,
they're not all, they're not allready for that day, right?
They're, they don't have all thesame readiness levels.
And I said, this is how youhandle one rep testing or any
testing that you do.
You bring'em in.
These guys look really, reallygood over here.
Whatever the case is, let'em gofor it.
Let'em have a few singles ifthey're going really great.
Take a few more and see if youcan and see if you can, you
(23:12):
know, get up to something heavy.
If they're not feeling good,don't worry about it.
You live to fight another dayand we just go on with the
workout.
So, you know, and so we haveguys go up to heavy singles when
they feel good in season all thetime.
And that's how we can, that'show we can, you know, see what
our strength levels are inseason without worrying about
having a max day or anythinglike that.
Mike (23:32):
I love it.
And, and the forest plates havedone so much for us in that, in
that manner too, where you canjust have a jump.
You can do an isometric mid dip,pull, or a squat squat.
Alting type thing.
Like there's, there's, there'sso many things you can do right
there without having to, to do arep max day.
Right.
I mean, is there anything worsethan, than the, that day?
Right.
Like it's just, it's, it's theworst testing process ever.
Zach (23:55):
Yeah, and so many athletes, because they're not
all ready at the same time.
So many athletes fail.
they, and, and if it's, it's aterrible, like, it's a terrible
event on their psyche becausethen they think they've trained
their butt off for the last, youknow, 6, 12, 16 weeks and made
no progress.
And so I, I think it's just aterrible, terrible thing.
Mike (24:16):
Right.
Well, I wanna dig in a littlebit on the max velocity thing,
because I think that'ssomething, um, if, you know,
just following you online andjust knowing your, your
educational stuff, I thinkthat's one thing I've learned
from you a little bit and theimportance of it.
But I still feel like your,what, what you're saying about
sprints and max velocity andyour baseball players, I still
think it's, it's not the.
(24:38):
Right.
And I see a lot of programs incolleges and I see a lot of pro
teams that, that probably stillaren't doing that.
Tell me a little bit more aboutyour thoughts on this.
What, why do they need to getMax Oxy?
Why sprint?
How does that correlate tobaseball performance, both
position and pitchers?
Uh, tell me a little bit moreabout that because I'm, I'm
intrigued in.
It's something we've starteddoing a little bit more with the
(24:59):
White Sox, but I want to hearmore from you,
Zach (25:02):
Yeah, I've, I've gotta clarify some thoughts after this
start of that last question too.
So for us, our principles forspeed work are gonna be fresh,
fast, and frequent.
Fresh.
I want my guys feeling really,really good on the day.
That we're running fast.
So we optimize, um, all of ourworkouts, or we organize our
workouts accordingly so that wecan optimize recovery.
(25:23):
So we're fast on those days.
We want those guys to feelreally, really good.
We train at high speeds, 95%,uh, plus or more.
That's the fast part of the, uh,philosophy.
And then the frequent is we wantexposures to this every week or
so.
Right?
If you look at, um, VladimirIsans, um, training residual.
Basically, you know, whether youknow anything about that or not,
(25:46):
speed stays in the system forabout seven days.
So if you're not, you're nothitting some high speeds every
week, you're risking soft tissueinjuries with your athletes,
especially your thoroughbreds.
You know, we've got slow badathletes.
They never pull hamstrings,right?
It's the D, it's the, it's thehigh c n s dominant, the fast,
explosive thoroughbreds thatthis is gonna cause a problem.
(26:07):
So if you haven't sprinted forthree or four weeks and then
you're asking him, you're askinghim to go out and.
They're not prepared for thedemands.
And so guess what?
You're gonna end up having softtissue injuries, maybe not on
that day, but 2, 3, 4 weeks downthe road, the accumulation
builds up and you've gotproblems.
So those are our big principles.
Um, and, and like I talked aboutearlier today at a, at a
(26:28):
conference, uh, with ourbaseball coaches, maximal speed
is the, uh, is the, uh, tidethat, that lifts all ships.
So it's gonna help withacceleration as well.
You know, the studies, uh, the,the, the, the work by Ken.
With N F L combine athletestalks about, um, the guys that
had faster max vs.
(26:48):
That were just faster athletesthat also had faster
accelerations at 5, 10, 15, 20yard segments.
So I used to be this youngstrength coach that was told,
don't ever run max velocitystuff.
Don't ever do high-end or highend speed work because you're
gonna have guys pull hamstrings.
All you know, team sports is allabout acceleration.
So as a young strength coach, Ithought, okay, all we gotta do
(27:10):
is acceleration.
and you would see when I waswith football, with football
programs, football programs werealways terrified to run forties,
but at the end of every spring,every football program in
America gets out there in timesforties and has guys hurt
hamstrings.
So it was, it was this continualcycle of we ran a 40 guy hurt a
(27:30):
hamstring.
No more top speed work becausewe can't run fast, because
that's, that's what happens whenyou run fast.
Well, we were creating theproblem and that we never ran.
just like I talked about, youweren't getting that speed every
seven days.
And so when you don't do thatstuff, guess what?
Guys get hurt.
Guys would get hurt, stay awayfrom max speed, only do
(27:51):
acceleration.
And so it was this continuouscycle.
And so, um, we make an effort.
We sprint every single week withour guys pitchers and position.
We do high, we do high, uh, or Ishould say, um, really, really
fast.
Max V if they don't feel greaton the day, if they're not.
we say you need to stay a halfstep to one step under max,
(28:12):
which is our, basically our 90to 95% range.
We're still gonna get goodquality work in, but we're not
gonna push to be faster.
So it doesn't matter where weare in the, in the year, our
guys are running some type of 90plus, um, sprint at
Mike (28:27):
I was gonna,
Zach (28:28):
everybody does.
Mike (28:29):
I was gonna say that too.
And that's all year round.
You do that in season and offseason.
Zach (28:33):
So with our guys.
Yes.
And, and, and I had a coach askme this morning, well, how do
you do this when you're, uh,practicing and this and that?
We do it in the warmup,microdose it into the warmup,
so, Especially with youroutfielders, your guys that, um,
and I shouldn't say outfielders,especially with anybody that's
not playing regularly whenthey're playing in the games
we've seen on G P S, our guysare hitting a hundred percent.
(28:54):
So that goes against the thoughtthat you only need acceleration
in team sport or only needacceleration in baseball.
These guys are hitting a hundredpercent.
We saw 104% on our GPS guyshitting over their PR in game,
so they're running fast.
So the guys that are playing ingame, they probably don't.
The guys that aren't, that areriding a pine, those are the
guys that need that, that, um,that residual to stick around
(29:16):
because as soon as somebody goesdown and they're into the game,
guess what?
They're gonna be running reallyfast and you don't wanna have
them break it down.
Mike (29:23):
And you have a big spike in their, their workloads.
But, but, but you're stillrunning the center fielder
though.
The guy that's, that's a hundredpercent of the games.
They're still running with youonce a week though.
Zach (29:32):
they're still, they still do buildups with us,
essentially.
Yeah.
With their warmups.
They're still doing high, uh,high speed buildups and stuff
like that.
Multiple times per week.
Yes.
Mike (29:42):
And, and what are we talking about?
Like a handful?
Like how many, how, how many arewe talking about Four?
Like what do you do?
Zach (29:47):
as far as reps go, Like, like, yeah.
So what we would do is weessentially have our, our 13
minute warmup that we're gonnado, we go 50, 75 and 90%, 30
yard buildups.
Those are our warmup runs.
And then after that we'll do a30 yard with a 10 yard hold at
90 to 95% for two reps.
Just microdose it in.
Mike (30:08):
right.
Zach (30:10):
like I told coaches today, you can also piece it into your
base running stuff because what,what do we do?
We go warm up and then straightto base running.
So that's why we warm our guysup to be ready to sprint.
And then if I didn't wanna dothe flies, we can take it over
to base running and say, allright, we're gonna do, you know,
two hard reps of, uh, a first tothird or something like that.
I want you to reach 95% on yourspeed so you can tie it into the
(30:31):
actual skill development so it'snot taking up a another segment
of your.
Mike (30:36):
Yeah.
And, and, and it's definitelyone of those areas.
More cautious you get, it seemslike the more it backfires, like
you said, like the, the more youavoid it cuz you're worried
about getting hurt, the moreyou, you end up getting hurt it
Zach (30:47):
The more, yeah, the more it's gonna come show its face.
Mike (30:50):
Yeah.
So, and you know, and we'reseeing hamstrings in our
position players.
And our pitchers.
Right.
So I, I, I, I like that concept.
Um, are, are you, do you thinkthere's something to be said
though about this max velocityalso for their performance?
Does it help them also be moreexplosive, uh, for swinging and,
and, and pitching, or do youthink this is just more for
(31:10):
injury?
Zach (31:12):
Yeah, I mean, it's hard to relate it directly or transfer.
See, transfer directly relatedto, you know, swinging and, and,
and pitching possibly.
But at the same time, you thinkthere's nothing more powerful of
a C N S stimulant thansprinting.
It's the most powerful thing wedo.
The stretch, shortening cycle,the athleticism, all the things
(31:33):
that go into it.
I mean, we are rotationalbeings.
Like sprinting is just arotational movement, really.
All the things that go intosprinting, I.
It's just too good to leave outfor the athlete, whether it
really produces transferspecifically to pitching,
hitting, throw, you know,anything in the baseball field.
I, I don't know, but it's toomuch, it's too good of an
athletic, uh, uh, uh, quality toleave out for anybody.
(31:57):
In my opinion.
Everybody should be doing it.
Mike (32:00):
Right.
And, and just a good part ofwell-rounded athleticism too, of
just, of getting people to movefast.
If you never, ever move fast,you know, you're, you're, you're
a slow person.
You don't use velocity basedtraining in your gym, you know,
that type of thing.
And it's always slow, you know,adding those sprints is, it's,
it's, it's such a contrast to somany people that are used to
going slow.
Um, it's definitely worth, um,you know, considering.
(32:22):
So, um, I, I, I love how you dothat and, You know, the
importance of, that's, that'sreally good.
I mean, hamstrings continue tobe like, you know, probably the
number one injury in baseball.
I mean, taking it while takingout the pitching injuries for
the arm.
Um, you know, and, and, and wesee this, uh, coming from lots
of different directions.
And, and I agree with youwholeheartedly that, that one
(32:43):
time you get an injury,everybody says, uh, we gotta run
less.
You know, or you gotta, yougotta point your finger at the
weight room.
It's, it, it's frustrating.
Zach (32:51):
and to me so much of that.
I didn't mean to cut you off
Mike (32:54):
no, no.
Zach (32:55):
but to me, so much of that comes from the fact that a lot
of times the athletes aren'tprepared for the demands that
they're gonna face.
And we talk about that all thetime going into this period
right now in that, I mean, I'vetrained, I've had groups of 30
plus, you know, professionalbaseball athletes train with me
in the off seasons at times, andI've seen the intent sometimes
(33:16):
that they'll put into to theirefforts and for years, Pitchers
didn't believe in throwing hardbefore they got to camp.
They didn't believe in it,right?
I, I would, I, it was likesmacking my forehead on a wall.
You, let's take live abs.
Let's get, once you ramped up toa hundred percent before you
ever step into camp, so that wayyou're prepared to make this
(33:38):
team that you don't know ifyou're gonna make or not.
Because the bull pins that yousee, the bull pins that you see
in the off season with a lot of,uh, pro athletes.
are really, they're in an 80%range and there is a massive
difference between throwing 88%and a hundred percent with
intent against a, a, a hitter ina competitive situation.
(34:03):
It's a massive difference.
Um, you know, just in anexample, we did a, uh, staff
education with Brian, uh, Hechefrom the University of
Wisconsin, who was, uh, he's thelead researcher for hamstring
um, injuries in the N F L and.
The difference between, I can'tremember his specific example,
but the difference between, Ithink he said 92% or maybe it
(34:26):
was 95% and 100% sprinting isexponentially more stressful.
Um, that difference between 95and a hundred, just that half
step of
Mike (34:38):
Right,
Zach (34:38):
I'm pushing with more intent was exponential.
More difficult on, on thestructures of the human body.
And so when you think about apitcher throwing a bullpen at 85
or 88% and then going in,they're not prepared for the
demands.
We see the same thing with thepro athletes in sprinting.
You know, we'd always have ahard time getting guys to sprint
(34:59):
full speed in the off season.
The timing system helps greatly.
But you still see that all thetime where they're like, eh, you
know, I mean, yeah, I'll, I'll,I'll kind of do my sprints.
they're still not with maxintent.
And then you get into camp andyou're trying to make a team and
I gotta, you gotta bust your,you gotta bust your hump.
Exactly.
And then you're not prepared forthe demands.
(35:22):
And guess what happened?
A soft tissue injury.
Mike (35:24):
Right.
Yeah.
And, and I should say too, likeas I, I, I said earlier that we
see so many people working maxintent swings all winter at, at
the younger levels.
Um, you, you have to do it to,to, to your point, you have to
do max effort, bullpens, maxeffort, like BP sessions.
But, but you can't do it everyday in, all day, every day.
I think that that's the point.
You, you have to expose yourselfto those things.
(35:45):
And if, if you're training at80% all the time, then you're
gonna be 80% Right.
it's a, it's a, it's a, it's,it's a, it's a slippery slope.
Right?
Um, so, all right.
So, I, I, I can see yourathletes doing a great job with
this.
Uh, what's an on-ramp look likefor people that haven't been
doing this?
So freshmen coming in, or maybesomebody that spent the summer
(36:06):
away, uh, and you know that theydidn't sprint.
I mean, if, if you have'em dotheir max effort sprints, week
one, you know, that's, that'sprobably gonna be a big spike
for them too.
How long's your on-ramp forthat?
Is it, you know, four weeks, sixweeks?
What, what do you like to.
Zach (36:18):
Yeah, so for most of our, uh, the foundation program for
the most part is gonna be a fourweek OnRamp.
it's for us.
The, the, the, uh, foundation ofour sprinting is buildups,
right?
Buildups for us start at 0%,essentially at the, at the goal
line.
And you're gonna build up tothe, uh, distance that we have,
which is 20 to 60 yards, and weset an intensity parameter on
(36:41):
it.
So if we say, you know, 90% at20 yard, They're gonna ramp up
their steps gradually and try tohit 90% at 20 yards.
But we know because we've setthe distance at 20, that's gonna
dictate true intensity.
We know if they're building upgradually, they're not gonna be
able to truly hit 90% at 20yards.
So all we do is we ramp thosepercentages in that distance,
(37:03):
um, up and out over the courseof that four weeks.
So that's how we build in.
Our gradual progression to tomax V.
And then by the end of that fourweeks, we will start using, um,
our gates, our, uh, free lapsystem, what whatever we're
using at the time, uh, to timethose athletes in a flying tin.
Um, usually after four or fiveweeks, but it's, it's just build
(37:25):
up for us.
It's gradual, uh, acclimationto, to, um, to speed.
That's really all it is.
Mike (37:33):
which makes sense o obviously, but it's, you know,
some, I, I've seen people getexcited, say, oh, everybody
needs a sprint, let's startsprinting next week.
Right.
And, and you have to be careful,like a max intent sprint has to
be something you're preparedfor.
And, and, and, you know, I, I, Ithink, uh, you know, just making
sure the young professionalsunderstand what you're saying
there, I think that's, that'simportant.
(37:53):
How much of this information doyou apply to rotational things
and oblique injuries?
We're talking hamstringinjuries.
Right.
Well, what about obliqueinjuries and rotational
velocity?
Uh, do you do similarprogressions and max intense
stuff with like med balls and,and hitting programs, that sort
of thing?
Is this, does this parallel witho.
Zach (38:14):
Yeah.
I mean, to me it's, it's, it'sall one in the same language,
right?
You've, you've just gotta useprogressive overload and
progressive, um, increases involume and intensity with
anything that you do.
For us, it's gonna start withextensive means for the most
part.
Extensive means are gonna be submaximal, um, you know, and we
usually say 50 to 70% on that.
(38:36):
So we'll start, our med ballthrows with extensive med ball
throws 50 to 70% intensity, andwe're gonna ramp up over the
course of two to four weeks intoa maximal, into a maximal throw.
Essentially everything we do,we're gonna start with those
extensive means and thenintensify.
If we add anything to ourprogram in the middle of, uh, a
semester, we start withextensive.
(38:59):
As an introduction and then weintensify it over the course of
a couple weeks.
So let's say, you know, in blocktwo we're gonna add, um, some
type of, of jump in block one.
Halfway through we start addingthat jump in at submaximal va at
submaximal intensity.
So 50%.
So if you were gonna do a, whoknows a trap bar jump, let's add
(39:19):
that trap bar.
Jump in.
But we're not gonna use Maxintent, so we're gonna get
familiar with the.
and then two weeks down the roadwhen it becomes part of our
program, instead of justrandomly throwing it in, and now
we're jumping really, reallyhigh, fast, whatever, powerful,
with a, with a load, we'vealready had exposure to it.
Sub maximal intensities,everything in, to me, everything
should happen like that.
(39:39):
Throwing programs, hittingprograms.
Your, your, your energy, energysystem development, everything.
Like we see, we see way too manycoaches and athletes just jump
into something.
you know, full intent rightaway.
High volumes.
And those workloads spike, likeyou said, and, and the result is
usually not.
Mike (40:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I, I, I agree.
And, and, and I, I think this isa great episode, right?
Because I think the wholeconcept of training with intent
and this max velocity, thosetypes of things, I, I think it's
something that we can allcontinue to improve on.
And I, I, I think you've, you'vemade it a science.
Right.
You've, you've developed a niceway to on-ramp it and to monitor
(40:21):
it and to quantify it.
And I, I think that's, that'sthe way to go.
Um, so, um, you know, to me, Ithink this is something that
people need to pay attention towhen you, when, when you do,
it's not just what do you do,but how do you do it.
And I, and I think that's onething that you've done over your
16 years at TCU, is you'vefigured out a little bit of, of,
of the recipe, right?
Not just the ingredients, butyou've, you've, you've figured
(40:42):
out a little bit of how to applythat.
And I think that's the partthat's really neat about your.
Zach (40:47):
Well, we're, we're trying every day.
We're trying to improve so thatwe can have our athletes
withstand that first four weeks.
I mean, that's when everybodygets hurt.
Really.
Mike (40:55):
right?
Zach (40:56):
it's the first four weeks.
It's for the pre-season.
you know, major league baseball.
The injury rates are highestduring the spring training.
That's it that that first eightweeks that you guys have in
spring training, in the firstcouple weeks of the season,
that's when the injury rates arehighest.
We've gotta build resilient,robust athletes to be able to
withstand the practices so thatthey can get to the games.
(41:17):
That's what our goal ends.
Mike (41:18):
Yep.
Movement over maxes resilientathletes.
I love it.
Awesome.
All right, well, great stuff.
Zach.
Uh, before I let you go, I'dlike to end with a little high
five section, five quickquestions, five quick answers.
Um, you just wanna hear a littlebit about what's going on in
your brain a little bit, right?
So first question is, what areyou currently reading or
(41:39):
learning?
What are you doing for your ownprofessional development right
now?
Zach (41:44):
Oh boy.
Mike (41:47):
I mean, I, I know you, you got a young family, a lot of but
I'm sure you're still, you'restill learning.
Zach (41:55):
Uh, yeah.
So most recent book was, um, oh,what was it?
It was, uh, one of Alex Hermo.
Don't laugh.
This is one of
Mike (42:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Zach (42:04):
A hundred million dollar Offers by Alex Hermo.
Mike (42:07):
Nice.
There you go.
Did you make any yet?
Zach (42:11):
I, I wish.
Yeah, I haven't seen that checkyet.
Come in.
There hasn't been much time forthat, so,
Mike (42:18):
That's awesome.
That's a good, that's a goodone.
All right.
What's one thing that you'verecently changed your mind
about?
Zach (42:24):
I guess one thing I've changed my mind about has been
the, um, just being able toobjectify rotator cuff and, and
scapular strength.
Something that I haven't done inthe past.
We've been using the, uh, armcare app to do that with our
athletes, and I've seen somereally, really impressive things
recently.
So, um, I didn't, didn't realizethat was important.
As important as I think it,it's, um, in the.
Mike (42:48):
I love it.
Yeah, that's great.
That's, that's, that's my worldright there.
So I, it's good to see youcoming on over to appreciating
that.
That's awesome.
Um, alright.
This one's easy.
This one's easy for you.
What, what's the biggest pieceof advice you love to give your
interns?
Zach (43:04):
The biggest piece of advice is take care of your
body.
It's the only one you get.
I heard that from Warren Buffet.
He said, if you only had one caryour entire life, how well would
you take care of it?
Well, that's your body and mybody is, is old and broken down
and so my biggest piece ofadvice to any up and coming
coaches take care of your body.
Mike (43:25):
That's actually good.
You know, I, I, we, we don'tfocus on that enough, right?
We're, we're, we're alwayshelping other people.
We never help ourselves.
Zach (43:32):
Yeah.
Mike (43:33):
a good, that's a good one.
Awesome.
All right.
What's coming up next for you?
What are we gonna, we gonna findanything new coming from Zach?
Any new products?
You speaking anywhere, anything,uh, in the works?
Zach (43:43):
So right now I'm actually developing, uh, finishing up a,
um, an in-season program forpitchers to basically do
remotely.
Just something that, that, that,you know, high school college
athletes can just kind of jumpon.
It's gonna be on the bridge appwhere they'll have access to,
you know, four a six day.
(44:03):
a week, workouts, um, anywhere,cuz a lot of, a lot of athletes
don't have access to that.
And so, uh, this is somethingwe're kind of finishing up for
the end season so that, youknow, maybe, uh, maybe pitchers
can take care of themselves alittle better.
Mike (44:16):
That'd be great.
That'd be a great addition.
I love that.
Um, and then last thing is howdo we learn more about you?
I know you have a website, somesocial, where do you wanna send
people?
Where, where are you the most?
Zach (44:27):
Yeah, so Zach Dcon, um, is the handle at Twitter and
Instagram, and then the websiteis Zach Dcon, you know, happy to
answer any questions.
If they ever reach out, they canshoot me an email through the
TCU website.
And happy to help as much as Ican.
Mike (44:43):
That's awesome.
Well, thank you so much.
Really appreciate you coming onthe podcast today, Zack, taking
some time out.
Good luck this season and uh,hopefully we'll get you on
another podcast in the future.
We'll talk about something else.
Zach (44:54):
I really appreciate it, Mike.
Thanks for having me.
On this episode of the sportsphysical therapy podcast.
I am joined by Zach daikon.
Zack's the assistant athleticdirector of human performance at
TCU and oversees the baseballand sports performance
internship program.
And this episode, we talk abouttraining baseball athletes.
Setting the stage for athleticsuccess and using sprints in
velocity, where to train withmax intent.
Mike (00:32):
Hey Zach, how's it going?
Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for joining.
Zach (00:35):
Yeah.
I appreciate it, Mike.
Um, I've, I've been a, uh, longtime, uh, fan of all your work,
so I appreciate you having meon.
It's a real.
Mike (00:42):
Yeah, no, likewise.
Uh, we've talked in the past andit's really been great to, to
get to know you a little bit andbend your ear a little bit, to
be honest with you, and, andlearn from you because, uh, I
really, really like your.
I like your style, like yourcoaching style, like your
educational style.
It's, it's really been been funto learn from you, um, over the
years and all the great stuffyou're doing from, uh, T C U
(01:05):
baseball and all that stuff.
So, uh, it's an honor to haveyou, uh, on the program.
So, um, You know, why don't westart with that.
Uh, you know, t c u baseball'sprobably your, your primary
concern.
I know you have some upper levelmanagement type stuff where you
help run the department.
You run the internship programat T C U a little bit.
Um, uh, tell me a little bitabout that.
How'd you get started working inbaseball?
(01:26):
Was it, was it intentional?
Did you, did you love baseball?
Did you just fall into it?
Zach (01:32):
Yeah, that's a a great question.
I actually just talked aboutthis with my interns this
morning.
You know, I played collegefootball.
and a job came open when I wasging at Missouri State
University.
Uh, my alma mater, uh, with theLA Angels and the, at the time
my head strength coach wasmaking the move to Notre Dame.
And when you're a ga you, youlook for anything that's gonna
(01:54):
pay you real money, right?
And so I jumped at this job togo to, to, to Arizona to work
with the angels and, and got it.
Spent two years there.
And what I told my internstoday, cuz they asked me, they
said, how did you really getinto.
I wanted to be a footballstrength coach forever.
I left the angels, went to theUniversity of Wyoming for six
months as a football strengthcoach, and the job at T C U came
(02:16):
open and it was football andbaseball.
I had football experience,obviously because I played the,
uh, the, the, the head coach,Jim Schloss, NLE at the time at
Texas a and m now wantedsomebody who had been in pro
ball.
So I, I was a perfect fit andreally baseball just kind of
happened.
Um, I never thought this wouldbe my.
And the reason that I, I told myinterns today, it became a niche
(02:38):
for me was because I was veryoutside the box when it comes to
training baseball athletes.
I trained'em like football, liketrack and field.
Um, that, that's how I trained'em.
I trained'em like athletesversus at the time when I was
back in pro ball in, in 2000,you know, that was 2006, 2007,
there were minor leak facilitiesin Arizona that didn't even have
(02:59):
weight.
that had no weight room attachedto it whatsoever.
Or they had a, uh, series ofmachines.
At the time I was with theAngels, we had 15 hammer
strength machines, and it wasone set
Mike (03:11):
Yeah.
Zach (03:11):
20 reps on every machine down the line.
And so I was, that, that was howI kind of made I made my way in
baseball was that I believed inspeed development.
I believed in like sprinting ourguys in acceleration and all
the, the common training things.
Mike (03:28):
Yeah,
Zach (03:29):
think of today.
And
Mike (03:30):
That's
Zach (03:30):
that's, yeah, that's just what you do with athletes.
But back then I was like, I was,I was, I was the crazy guy off
on, you know, the back fieldsdoing acceleration work
Mike (03:40):
Right.
Zach (03:40):
he doing?
Um,
Mike (03:43):
and the, and the, the, the coaches probably freaked Right.
When you're out there actuallytrying to help the players get
better.
Right.
And, and they're used to doingthose, those planet fitness
circuit machines, right.
Is what that sounded like.
Right.
Like that must have been a, abig shift.
Yeah.
Zach (03:55):
A hundred percent.
And so we used to do barefootwarmups.
This is back in 2006.
Barefoot warmups temple runswithout your shoes on.
I mean, the fields aremeticulously maintained in
Arizona.
Right?
Beautiful fields.
And I had a coach that was inhis late seventies, early
eighties come out and scream upand down at me because these
kids were gonna step on glass ornails or something in the
(04:18):
outfield and tear their, feet upand weren't gonna be able to
play.
And I.
I mean, these, these fields areunbelievable.
Who, where's their, where'stheir glass on the field?
But,
Mike (04:30):
there's
Zach (04:30):
so I would, again, I was just getting beaten up for the,
the ideas and the, uh, methodsthat I used to use back then.
So,
Mike (04:38):
That's funny.
Well, so let, let, let's hear alittle bit more about that.
So, if somebody coming from thefootball world going into
baseball, uh, what are some ofthe things that you think, um,
somebody needs to consider towork with baseball athletes?
You, you talked about treating'em like athletes cuz they are
Right.
But are there some uniqueconsiderations that you, you use
with baseball players things?
(05:00):
you, you try to really emphasizeand maybe some things that you
try to avoid, or do you justtreat'em like everybody?
Zach (05:06):
Yeah, I mean, it's a.
Both.
Right.
One of the things that I'velearned over the last, whatever
it's been, 16 plus years in, inbaseball, is just the ability to
have some feel.
Um, that's one of the big thingsthat I think that some of my
interns sometimes miss out onwhen they go into pro ball is
they don't realize you gotta,there's a little bit of a
(05:29):
baseball feel you gotta have.
Right.
Walking into a, a locker room tothe training situation that
baseball is as far as the, uh,actual training.
The big differences for me focusaround the spine.
Pars fractures for us are ahuge, huge issue that we see at
the high school level, thejunior college level.
Um, you know, an example is sixout of 12 athletes we had in an
(05:51):
incoming class one time hadcurrent or previous pars
fractures.
So we have to be very, verycognizant of the spine.
the pelvis.
That's where everything startsfor us.
The pelvis is the foundation.
It's the first thing we teach inthe, uh, in the, um, foundation
program that I, you know, that Idetailed in movement over Max's.
Um, and then obviously you,you've talked about it, you
(06:12):
know, I, I'm, I'm following yourwork with the shoulder.
We have to be very, verycognizant of the shoulder, um,
because football and, and, uh,and, and the demands that are
put on baseball athletes arevery, very, very d.
you need that functional armorup top.
A lot of times with footballathletes, they're not, they're
not overhead, they're notspecialized in anything there.
(06:33):
And so, uh, you gotta be very,very conscious of the, of the
shoulder, the scapula, therotator cuff.
We, we know those things.
Mike (06:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Make, makes sense.
And, and it's interesting youbring up the spine.
Um, have you, have you seen thatincrease lately?
Is that going up in your mind?
Zach (06:50):
Um, for us, I would actually say it's probably.
here at T C U I would say it'sprobably going down or maybe
staying the same, I guess.
Um, we sought really, really badin, let's say, probably around
2010 to 2015, and maybe that wasjust because we were starting to
figure out what it was.
(07:11):
Here's what would happen in, Ithink my early years, 2008 to
2010, we would get athletes intothe weight room.
I would screen'em with the f m.
And, uh, to be honest, at thetime I really didn't know what
pars fractures were probably.
So I didn't know how to findthose in my initial screen, even
though there, there's theextension based test that, that,
uh, goes along with the pushupthat you could probably weed
(07:32):
that out in.
I just didn't know how to askthe right questions, which now I
do, I know how to dig deeper.
Um, but we get these athletes inand they'd be on campus for
three, four weeks.
They're training every day withus.
They're swinging every.
they're doing a ton of skillwork that they're not used to.
And so what happens, their parsfracture flares up and a lot of
(07:53):
times you didn't know that theyhad this previous injury from
six months ago that they didn'ttell you about or a year ago.
And so it flares up.
And so the first thing a coachor anybody on in your
organization thinks is, well,they got hurt.
You know, we're not reallypracticing yet.
They probably got hurt in theweight room.
It's squatting, it's it'sdeadlifting, it's something
along that, along those lines,and.
(08:15):
the coaching staff and I wouldbutt heads a lot because they
always wanted attribute back tothe weight room.
Yeah, you heard'em in the weightroom, now you're squatting too
much, you're doing too manydeadlifts, whatever the case is.
Um, but then we started bringingin smarter people than all of
us.
And you know, we, we've gotspecialists in every area as far
as the shoulder, the spine, thehip, um, medical specialists
(08:35):
that work with us.
Our, um, our spine orthobasically came in, presented.
We, we talked back and forth tohim.
I mean, we're very, very close.
And he's, he told us, he's like,here's what's happening.
You've got pars fractures.
I see gymnasts, I see N F Llinemen.
Um, I see, you know, all walksof life.
Have these issues there.
Here's where they're comingfrom.
Here's what we need to do to, toprevent this, or whatever the
(08:56):
case was, and started opening upour, uh, minds.
So what these problems were sothat we could find'em ahead of
time.
And really what it comes down tois me asking the right questions
before our athletes ever stepunder a bar or put a baseball
bat in their hand.
It's, it's digging deeper to seeif they've really ever had any
injuries that we need to referout to have them looked at
(09:17):
before we start doing thisstuff.
So it's, the screening processis what's changed for me.
Um, let's find it before we, we,uh, do something stupid and, and
somebody gets hurt.
After that it, it became, youknow, eliminating back squat.
A lot of the extension basedstuff that we do, it's been
modifying that.
So that's why I became a hugefront squat guy.
(09:38):
Um, and then even since then,we've modified even more, more
so continual con, continualimprovement, hopefully.
Mike (09:47):
Yeah.
And you, you know, the reasonwhy I ask too is I, I do feel
like I've started to see this alittle bit more in our, uh,
probably more our high schoolathletes than our college
athletes.
And, you know, you gotta wonder,you know, the whole world is
just focused on numbers.
They're focused on exitvelocity.
They are taking max effortswings.
All freaking winter now.
(10:07):
Right.
Where, where, where they weren'tin high school before.
They weren't doing that.
And you just, you wonder howmuch that's a part of it, but
um, you know, great uniquenessof our sport.
Zach (10:17):
right?
So, and one of the reasons Ithink you are seeing that more,
and I could be wrong, but you'rein the Northeast, right?
Cold weather 10, 20 years ago,the training wasn't what it is
today because of social media,really, because of companies
that can do remote training andall these other things.
So in my opinion, Uh, Ipresented actually in
(10:38):
Philadelphia.
This was probably 7, 8, 9 yearsago, something like that.
And I talked about this.
I presented on par fractures andhow we work around those.
And most of the coaches therehad never heard of it.
The PTs, the strength coacheshad no clue what I was talking
about.
And then I realized it's becausewe're in the south.
My kids are playing baseballyear round, which they do.
(10:58):
They play baseball year roundhere.
It's a warm weather climate.
but the coaches that I weremeeting, that I was meeting from
the north in any cold areas hadno clue what par fractures were
because they, a lot of'em hadmulti-sport athletes or the, the
athletes didn't participate in,in baseball during the winter
months, and so they didn't see'em.
And so that could be why you areseeing more is just because
(11:19):
remote programs, athletes knowthat they need to train year
round now, and so now they'redoing skill work year round up
there.
That could be the.
Mike (11:26):
Yeah, I mean this, this, this, this, uh, early youth
special specialization is justbecoming more and more prominent
in, in probably all of the, our.
Our areas of the country.
Uh, but we're definitely seeingit.
We're seeing kids just not tryout for winter sports anymore
and just get ready for baseballand, you know, I actually think
that's acceptable at a certainpoint of development.
(11:46):
Right.
But, um, it's happening earlierand earlier and, and there was
actually a study that's justpublished that shows us, like we
have kids as young as 10, 11,12.
They're starting to specializein, in one sport already.
Um, yeah, I can just imaginewhat what that does to somebody,
especially as.
Growth spurts and, andmaturation periods are different
in different people.
Right.
So somebody just does it at thewrong time and, and, you know,
(12:08):
they're, they're outta luck.
Right.
It's, it's, it's, it, it's thenature of the game we're playing
with now, but, um, As a collegestrength coach, right?
Somebody that's working at thecollege level, what percentage
of athletes coming into you, andyou guys are a great program, so
it's not like, you know, thisis, these are not motivated
athletes, but what percentage ofthe athletes coming into you,
(12:29):
uh, have a very low trainingage, you think?
Are there, are, are we startingto, to see them all get after it
in high school?
Now?
Are you still seeing some peoplethat it's relatively.
Zach (12:40):
So it has, uh, it has greatly improved since I
started.
So this is starting my 16thseason and really along the same
line of, of, uh, of, uh, thepars fractures issue I just
talked about 10 years ago.
I would have athletes that camein that had never, honestly
never been taught to squat.
That's where the movement overmax is, the foundation program
all came from, because I had somany high school athletes that
(13:02):
had never hinged, had neversquatted.
At one time I had an Emeril Bguy who was throwing 99 mile an
hour, this was seven or eightyears ago.
And I told him, I said, youknow, we're gonna go in and
hinge and do an R D l.
And he was like, what?
He had never in his life beentold what a hinge was or an R D
L.
He had never been taught eitherof'em.
This guy was at the highestlevel throwing 99 mile an hour.
(13:24):
Um, yeah, it used to be a realproblem anymore.
I don't see it that much.
Mike (13:29):
Oh, nice.
That's
Zach (13:30):
yeah.
Virtually every guy that we havecome into our program and.
One of the benefits, I justtalked to a bunch of coaches
this morning.
One of the benefits of writingmovement over Max's, and I'm not
trying to plug this here on theshow by any means,
Mike (13:42):
No, you
Zach (13:43):
of the, one of the benefits of that has been that
all of our incoming athletes,Either hear about it or know
about it by the book, and aretrained through that program by
either themselves or theircoaching staff before they get
on, before they get on campus.
So my, the kids coming in knowthe five, you know, big patterns
that we're gonna focus on.
(14:03):
They've already been trained init.
And so my work is, it's, it's alot easier if
Mike (14:07):
You, you, you built, you built an on-ramp program for
your incoming freshman.
I mean, that's actually aninteresting way to think about
it, right?
All right.
So, you know, and I'll, I'llplug it for you because I, you
know, uh, Zach's got a productmovement over Max's, and one of
the big things in it is hisfoundations program, which I
just thought was brilliant.
The way you've laid it out here,it's a foundation program that's
(14:29):
designed to take somebody, um,you, you have to graduate.
through foundations before youcan start to get to some
advanced training.
And I think everybody wants tojump to the latest and greatest
and the cool things they see onthe internet.
Um, and everybody's gonnaprogress through different
pillars in those foundationsdifferently, right?
They may be great at Hinge, butnot so great at Squad, for
(14:49):
example.
Um, I really love the way yououtline that.
So if you're looking to, to getinto some, some baseball
strength and conditioning stuff,uh, Zach's movement over Max's
program is, is, is fantastic foryou to check out and, and
follow.
Yourself, give it to yourathletes.
Uh, it's a great program.
But, um, so my follow upquestion for that then, Zach.
(15:10):
So these guys are coming in witha training age.
Uh, how many of them do youthink are doing things well
though?
So are they just, are they justgoing to the gym and like you
said, just putting strength ontop of dysfunction?
Or are they actually coming inand going through your
foundation program successfullyand doing a good job?
Uh, what are you seeing in, inthe last few?
Zach (15:31):
Yeah.
Um, you're still gonna see someof the, some of the things where
it's, there's a lot ofbreakdowns and movement and it
becomes, The weight on the barbthat matters.
Um, I still see that all thetime.
I still hear it from kids.
Kids.
Uh, we set the standard whenthey come in that, that you're
essentially gonna move throughthe program at our pace, at my
(15:54):
pace.
So I dictate the weight on thebarbell for almost everybody.
We educate all of our athletesand R PEs and, and what they
need to feel in the movement sothat we can get quality movement
first and foremost.
This year has.
as good of, uh, any years thatI've had with any incoming
class.
As far as, uh, movementproficiency goes, we moved very
(16:16):
quickly through it and we havesome really, really strong guys.
Strength for us is just abyproduct of the consistency in
our habits.
That's really all it is.
If you are consistent in yourhabits, you move really, really
well.
The strength is gonna come.
It's, it's falling out of a boatand hitting water.
Super, super, super easy.
So the message for the listenersout there, That have young
(16:38):
athletes, high school agedathletes, you don't have to
chase strength at the at allcosts.
You don't have to chase strengthat all costs.
It will come if your athletesare consistent in their habits,
that's all they have to do.
Mike (16:52):
and nothing will come quick and easy.
Right.
You, it's, it, it's, it's aboutthat persistence.
I agree.
Zach (16:58):
Exactly.
And the consistency breaks downso often, especially in season
for high school athletes, we seeit here all the time.
They train their tail off in theoff season.
Soon as the in season hits, Ican't do it.
The summer comes, I got, uh, youknow, I've got select teams and
travel teams and all this stuff,so I can't do it then.
But guess what, when Septembercomes back around, I'm gonna
(17:18):
train really, really hard untilDecember.
and then, you know, seasons kindof, kind of ramp up and then I,
I'll be done for another six orseven months.
And you're like, you do, do youunderstand how much, how many,
how many gains you're leaving onthe table by not training
consistently for six or sevenmonths.
It's just, it's crazy to me.
Mike (17:37):
Yeah, I, it, it's so shortsighted.
And, and you know, I, I, the,the more I do this, the more I
come across people that I justthink I'd put'em in a bucket of
they don't like working out.
And I, I dunno if it's theeffort, they don't like the
soreness, but, uh, that can't beit because you, you shouldn't
get sore once you get going intoa program.
I don't know what it is aboutit, but some people just don't
(17:58):
like the.
Right.
And, and I don't know, I, I, I,I don't, I don't know how to
handle those people, but, youknow, I've seen some really
successful major League baseballplayers that were like that.
So, you know, it, it, it'sstinks.
We're frustrated because wethink, like you said, that we're
leaving some gains on the table,but, um, unfortunately you come
across'em every now and then.
Zach (18:18):
Yeah.
Yeah, you do.
And really it's a lot of times,you know, it's with the high
school athletes, it's not thehigh school athletes fault.
Mike (18:24):
Mm-hmm.
Zach (18:25):
talk to high school athletes, I've.
That are like, yeah, I'd love towork out in season, but my
parents, you know, we, it'sjust, we, we don't have the time
and, and you know, I don't havea high school aged athlete, so I
don't know what it's likedriving'em all over town, I
suppose.
Mike (18:39):
it's pretty, it's pretty bad actually.
Zach (18:41):
yeah, so I gotta, ima I hear horror stories, but, um, at
the same time, if, if you'rereally concerned that much about
their development, then thatneeds to be a piece of it in my.
Mike (18:52):
Right.
Yeah, I, I agree.
And we're getting better, right?
I think the community around usgets it.
I think the local towns aroundus and, you know, Boston has a
lot of good, you know, prominentstrength and conditioning
facilities, so that's probablypart of it too.
But like, I think it spreads,right?
Like you have a couple ofplayers on a team that they get
after it one off season, andthen they spread the word with
(19:13):
their friends and teammates and,you know, hopefully it sticks.
But, um, So we talked aboutmovement.
I like that movement over maxes,which is, you know, such a great
phrase.
Right?
A good way of saying that.
So clearly when, when people arecoming into you, you like to
look at their movement, uh,what, what other type of testing
do you like to do other thanjust their, their movement
skills.
You know, what do you do withincoming freshmen or, or what do
(19:35):
you do as re revals and, and howmuch you actually testing them
versus just tracking theirtraining data over the course of
the.
Zach (19:43):
Yeah, that's what it really is.
Um, it, it, it.
It is testing through training.
Um, that's, that's the big thingfor us, especially with speed
work.
You know, we track speed, power,and strength.
Um, as far as the speed workgoes, we, uh, we use the Tony
Hauler method where we're, uh,we're basically recording, uh,
what does he call it?
(20:03):
Rank record and publish I think.
So we.
We have a, uh, electronic timingsystem.
We time the guys in their speedwork all the time.
We time them every week whenwe're doing our Max V, um, our,
our max velocity work.
Uh, again, I talked to the, tothe baseball, uh, coaches today
about this.
Um, we wanna make sure we'revery, very frequent with our,
(20:24):
uh, with our, um, max velocity.
When we're training MaxVelocity, sorry, I'm running
through a thousand thoughtshere, Mike.
When we're training Max, maxvelocity, we wanna make sure
that we have, um, a stimulusabout every week and we record
and, uh, and, um, time thosethose runs because objective
(20:45):
information creates intent withall of our athletes, and I
wanted our athletes to berunning their very fastest.
So our big focus on any of thattesting stuff is gonna be.
And we just do it.
We, we set the timing gates upevery week and we test that as
far as, uh, power numbers go,we've got force plates, we've
got jump pads, all that type ofstuff.
Again, it's, it's testingthrough training.
(21:05):
We put jumps in the middle of,uh, of a, a, a set of squats.
As a complex, you'll go over andjump.
And we'll record those numbers.
We'll just record'em on a weeklybasis.
Did we see the trend going up?
Great.
Did we see the trend going down?
Okay, let's, let's have anintervention here.
Um, we have our forest platesthat we use less frequently just
because of the time that ittakes so that we can get, you
(21:26):
know, all the metrics involved,gives us, um, with power outputs
and, and, uh, forces and thingslike that.
Um, but really that's, that'swhat it is.
It's training, it's testingthrough training, and not
training to test.
Um, I talked about it real quickwith our interns this morning.
So we actually had two guys thatwent up and tested a single on
(21:47):
their bench press today.
And, you know, that's hearsay,right?
Doing a one rep max on a, on abench press.
But I, I used this as a learningmoment for our interns who just
started, uh, this past week.
These guys were moving the barreally, really, really fast on a
tendo unit.
We were at 90.
and they were hitting speedsthat were 0.5 to 0.6 meters per
(22:08):
second on a Tinder unit, whichif you don't know, that's moving
the bar fast at 90%, which tellsme, Hey, they've got plenty in
the tank.
So I said to these two athletes,I said, do you guys wanna work
up and hit a few singles?
Yeah, sure, coach.
I feel great.
So we let these guys work up andthey both hit 20 plus pounds
over what their, their, theirnumber set for, uh, bench press
(22:28):
was.
And we've never maxed'em.
It's always just kind of aworking max based on what we.
So they ended up hitting, uh, wehad a 300 and a two 80 from two
outfielders today.
And so I pulled my interns asideand I said, this is why you
don't do like a one rep maxtesting day.
You have athletes.
Mike (22:49):
right?
Zach (22:50):
It's, it's terrible because no athlete, they're not,
they're not all, they're not allready for that day, right?
They're, they don't have all thesame readiness levels.
And I said, this is how youhandle one rep testing or any
testing that you do.
You bring'em in.
These guys look really, reallygood over here.
Whatever the case is, let'em gofor it.
Let'em have a few singles ifthey're going really great.
Take a few more and see if youcan and see if you can, you
(23:12):
know, get up to something heavy.
If they're not feeling good,don't worry about it.
You live to fight another dayand we just go on with the
workout.
So, you know, and so we haveguys go up to heavy singles when
they feel good in season all thetime.
And that's how we can, that'show we can, you know, see what
our strength levels are inseason without worrying about
having a max day or anythinglike that.
Mike (23:32):
I love it.
And, and the forest plates havedone so much for us in that, in
that manner too, where you canjust have a jump.
You can do an isometric mid dip,pull, or a squat squat.
Alting type thing.
Like there's, there's, there'sso many things you can do right
there without having to, to do arep max day.
Right.
I mean, is there anything worsethan, than the, that day?
Right.
Like it's just, it's, it's theworst testing process ever.
Zach (23:55):
Yeah, and so many athletes, because they're not
all ready at the same time.
So many athletes fail.
they, and, and if it's, it's aterrible, like, it's a terrible
event on their psyche becausethen they think they've trained
their butt off for the last, youknow, 6, 12, 16 weeks and made
no progress.
And so I, I think it's just aterrible, terrible thing.
Mike (24:16):
Right.
Well, I wanna dig in a littlebit on the max velocity thing,
because I think that'ssomething, um, if, you know,
just following you online andjust knowing your, your
educational stuff, I thinkthat's one thing I've learned
from you a little bit and theimportance of it.
But I still feel like your,what, what you're saying about
sprints and max velocity andyour baseball players, I still
think it's, it's not the.
(24:38):
Right.
And I see a lot of programs incolleges and I see a lot of pro
teams that, that probably stillaren't doing that.
Tell me a little bit more aboutyour thoughts on this.
What, why do they need to getMax Oxy?
Why sprint?
How does that correlate tobaseball performance, both
position and pitchers?
Uh, tell me a little bit moreabout that because I'm, I'm
intrigued in.
It's something we've starteddoing a little bit more with the
(24:59):
White Sox, but I want to hearmore from you,
Zach (25:02):
Yeah, I've, I've gotta clarify some thoughts after this
start of that last question too.
So for us, our principles forspeed work are gonna be fresh,
fast, and frequent.
Fresh.
I want my guys feeling really,really good on the day.
That we're running fast.
So we optimize, um, all of ourworkouts, or we organize our
workouts accordingly so that wecan optimize recovery.
(25:23):
So we're fast on those days.
We want those guys to feelreally, really good.
We train at high speeds, 95%,uh, plus or more.
That's the fast part of the, uh,philosophy.
And then the frequent is we wantexposures to this every week or
so.
Right?
If you look at, um, VladimirIsans, um, training residual.
Basically, you know, whether youknow anything about that or not,
(25:46):
speed stays in the system forabout seven days.
So if you're not, you're nothitting some high speeds every
week, you're risking soft tissueinjuries with your athletes,
especially your thoroughbreds.
You know, we've got slow badathletes.
They never pull hamstrings,right?
It's the D, it's the, it's thehigh c n s dominant, the fast,
explosive thoroughbreds thatthis is gonna cause a problem.
(26:07):
So if you haven't sprinted forthree or four weeks and then
you're asking him, you're askinghim to go out and.
They're not prepared for thedemands.
And so guess what?
You're gonna end up having softtissue injuries, maybe not on
that day, but 2, 3, 4 weeks downthe road, the accumulation
builds up and you've gotproblems.
So those are our big principles.
Um, and, and like I talked aboutearlier today at a, at a
(26:28):
conference, uh, with ourbaseball coaches, maximal speed
is the, uh, is the, uh, tidethat, that lifts all ships.
So it's gonna help withacceleration as well.
You know, the studies, uh, the,the, the, the work by Ken.
With N F L combine athletestalks about, um, the guys that
had faster max vs.
(26:48):
That were just faster athletesthat also had faster
accelerations at 5, 10, 15, 20yard segments.
So I used to be this youngstrength coach that was told,
don't ever run max velocitystuff.
Don't ever do high-end or highend speed work because you're
gonna have guys pull hamstrings.
All you know, team sports is allabout acceleration.
So as a young strength coach, Ithought, okay, all we gotta do
(27:10):
is acceleration.
and you would see when I waswith football, with football
programs, football programs werealways terrified to run forties,
but at the end of every spring,every football program in
America gets out there in timesforties and has guys hurt
hamstrings.
So it was, it was this continualcycle of we ran a 40 guy hurt a
(27:30):
hamstring.
No more top speed work becausewe can't run fast, because
that's, that's what happens whenyou run fast.
Well, we were creating theproblem and that we never ran.
just like I talked about, youweren't getting that speed every
seven days.
And so when you don't do thatstuff, guess what?
Guys get hurt.
Guys would get hurt, stay awayfrom max speed, only do
(27:51):
acceleration.
And so it was this continuouscycle.
And so, um, we make an effort.
We sprint every single week withour guys pitchers and position.
We do high, we do high, uh, or Ishould say, um, really, really
fast.
Max V if they don't feel greaton the day, if they're not.
we say you need to stay a halfstep to one step under max,
(28:12):
which is our, basically our 90to 95% range.
We're still gonna get goodquality work in, but we're not
gonna push to be faster.
So it doesn't matter where weare in the, in the year, our
guys are running some type of 90plus, um, sprint at
Mike (28:27):
I was gonna,
Zach (28:28):
everybody does.
Mike (28:29):
I was gonna say that too.
And that's all year round.
You do that in season and offseason.
Zach (28:33):
So with our guys.
Yes.
And, and, and I had a coach askme this morning, well, how do
you do this when you're, uh,practicing and this and that?
We do it in the warmup,microdose it into the warmup,
so, Especially with youroutfielders, your guys that, um,
and I shouldn't say outfielders,especially with anybody that's
not playing regularly whenthey're playing in the games
we've seen on G P S, our guysare hitting a hundred percent.
(28:54):
So that goes against the thoughtthat you only need acceleration
in team sport or only needacceleration in baseball.
These guys are hitting a hundredpercent.
We saw 104% on our GPS guyshitting over their PR in game,
so they're running fast.
So the guys that are playing ingame, they probably don't.
The guys that aren't, that areriding a pine, those are the
guys that need that, that, um,that residual to stick around
(29:16):
because as soon as somebody goesdown and they're into the game,
guess what?
They're gonna be running reallyfast and you don't wanna have
them break it down.
Mike (29:23):
And you have a big spike in their, their workloads.
But, but, but you're stillrunning the center fielder
though.
The guy that's, that's a hundredpercent of the games.
They're still running with youonce a week though.
Zach (29:32):
they're still, they still do buildups with us,
essentially.
Yeah.
With their warmups.
They're still doing high, uh,high speed buildups and stuff
like that.
Multiple times per week.
Yes.
Mike (29:42):
And, and what are we talking about?
Like a handful?
Like how many, how, how many arewe talking about Four?
Like what do you do?
Zach (29:47):
as far as reps go, Like, like, yeah.
So what we would do is weessentially have our, our 13
minute warmup that we're gonnado, we go 50, 75 and 90%, 30
yard buildups.
Those are our warmup runs.
And then after that we'll do a30 yard with a 10 yard hold at
90 to 95% for two reps.
Just microdose it in.
Mike (30:08):
right.
Zach (30:10):
like I told coaches today, you can also piece it into your
base running stuff because what,what do we do?
We go warm up and then straightto base running.
So that's why we warm our guysup to be ready to sprint.
And then if I didn't wanna dothe flies, we can take it over
to base running and say, allright, we're gonna do, you know,
two hard reps of, uh, a first tothird or something like that.
I want you to reach 95% on yourspeed so you can tie it into the
(30:31):
actual skill development so it'snot taking up a another segment
of your.
Mike (30:36):
Yeah.
And, and, and it's definitelyone of those areas.
More cautious you get, it seemslike the more it backfires, like
you said, like the, the more youavoid it cuz you're worried
about getting hurt, the moreyou, you end up getting hurt it
Zach (30:47):
The more, yeah, the more it's gonna come show its face.
Mike (30:50):
Yeah.
So, and you know, and we'reseeing hamstrings in our
position players.
And our pitchers.
Right.
So I, I, I, I like that concept.
Um, are, are you, do you thinkthere's something to be said
though about this max velocityalso for their performance?
Does it help them also be moreexplosive, uh, for swinging and,
and, and pitching, or do youthink this is just more for
(31:10):
injury?
Zach (31:12):
Yeah, I mean, it's hard to relate it directly or transfer.
See, transfer directly relatedto, you know, swinging and, and,
and pitching possibly.
But at the same time, you thinkthere's nothing more powerful of
a C N S stimulant thansprinting.
It's the most powerful thing wedo.
The stretch, shortening cycle,the athleticism, all the things
(31:33):
that go into it.
I mean, we are rotationalbeings.
Like sprinting is just arotational movement, really.
All the things that go intosprinting, I.
It's just too good to leave outfor the athlete, whether it
really produces transferspecifically to pitching,
hitting, throw, you know,anything in the baseball field.
I, I don't know, but it's toomuch, it's too good of an
athletic, uh, uh, uh, quality toleave out for anybody.
(31:57):
In my opinion.
Everybody should be doing it.
Mike (32:00):
Right.
And, and just a good part ofwell-rounded athleticism too, of
just, of getting people to movefast.
If you never, ever move fast,you know, you're, you're, you're
a slow person.
You don't use velocity basedtraining in your gym, you know,
that type of thing.
And it's always slow, you know,adding those sprints is, it's,
it's, it's such a contrast to somany people that are used to
going slow.
Um, it's definitely worth, um,you know, considering.
(32:22):
So, um, I, I, I love how you dothat and, You know, the
importance of, that's, that'sreally good.
I mean, hamstrings continue tobe like, you know, probably the
number one injury in baseball.
I mean, taking it while takingout the pitching injuries for
the arm.
Um, you know, and, and, and wesee this, uh, coming from lots
of different directions.
And, and I agree with youwholeheartedly that, that one
(32:43):
time you get an injury,everybody says, uh, we gotta run
less.
You know, or you gotta, yougotta point your finger at the
weight room.
It's, it, it's frustrating.
Zach (32:51):
and to me so much of that.
I didn't mean to cut you off
Mike (32:54):
no, no.
Zach (32:55):
but to me, so much of that comes from the fact that a lot
of times the athletes aren'tprepared for the demands that
they're gonna face.
And we talk about that all thetime going into this period
right now in that, I mean, I'vetrained, I've had groups of 30
plus, you know, professionalbaseball athletes train with me
in the off seasons at times, andI've seen the intent sometimes
(33:16):
that they'll put into to theirefforts and for years, Pitchers
didn't believe in throwing hardbefore they got to camp.
They didn't believe in it,right?
I, I would, I, it was likesmacking my forehead on a wall.
You, let's take live abs.
Let's get, once you ramped up toa hundred percent before you
ever step into camp, so that wayyou're prepared to make this
(33:38):
team that you don't know ifyou're gonna make or not.
Because the bull pins that yousee, the bull pins that you see
in the off season with a lot of,uh, pro athletes.
are really, they're in an 80%range and there is a massive
difference between throwing 88%and a hundred percent with
intent against a, a, a hitter ina competitive situation.
(34:03):
It's a massive difference.
Um, you know, just in anexample, we did a, uh, staff
education with Brian, uh, Hechefrom the University of
Wisconsin, who was, uh, he's thelead researcher for hamstring
um, injuries in the N F L and.
The difference between, I can'tremember his specific example,
but the difference between, Ithink he said 92% or maybe it
(34:26):
was 95% and 100% sprinting isexponentially more stressful.
Um, that difference between 95and a hundred, just that half
step of
Mike (34:38):
Right,
Zach (34:38):
I'm pushing with more intent was exponential.
More difficult on, on thestructures of the human body.
And so when you think about apitcher throwing a bullpen at 85
or 88% and then going in,they're not prepared for the
demands.
We see the same thing with thepro athletes in sprinting.
You know, we'd always have ahard time getting guys to sprint
(34:59):
full speed in the off season.
The timing system helps greatly.
But you still see that all thetime where they're like, eh, you
know, I mean, yeah, I'll, I'll,I'll kind of do my sprints.
they're still not with maxintent.
And then you get into camp andyou're trying to make a team and
I gotta, you gotta bust your,you gotta bust your hump.
Exactly.
And then you're not prepared forthe demands.
(35:22):
And guess what happened?
A soft tissue injury.
Mike (35:24):
Right.
Yeah.
And, and I should say too, likeas I, I, I said earlier that we
see so many people working maxintent swings all winter at, at
the younger levels.
Um, you, you have to do it to,to, to your point, you have to
do max effort, bullpens, maxeffort, like BP sessions.
But, but you can't do it everyday in, all day, every day.
I think that that's the point.
You, you have to expose yourselfto those things.
(35:45):
And if, if you're training at80% all the time, then you're
gonna be 80% Right.
it's a, it's a, it's a, it's,it's a, it's a slippery slope.
Right?
Um, so, all right.
So, I, I, I can see yourathletes doing a great job with
this.
Uh, what's an on-ramp look likefor people that haven't been
doing this?
So freshmen coming in, or maybesomebody that spent the summer
(36:06):
away, uh, and you know that theydidn't sprint.
I mean, if, if you have'em dotheir max effort sprints, week
one, you know, that's, that'sprobably gonna be a big spike
for them too.
How long's your on-ramp forthat?
Is it, you know, four weeks, sixweeks?
What, what do you like to.
Zach (36:18):
Yeah, so for most of our, uh, the foundation program for
the most part is gonna be a fourweek OnRamp.
it's for us.
The, the, the, uh, foundation ofour sprinting is buildups,
right?
Buildups for us start at 0%,essentially at the, at the goal
line.
And you're gonna build up tothe, uh, distance that we have,
which is 20 to 60 yards, and weset an intensity parameter on
(36:41):
it.
So if we say, you know, 90% at20 yard, They're gonna ramp up
their steps gradually and try tohit 90% at 20 yards.
But we know because we've setthe distance at 20, that's gonna
dictate true intensity.
We know if they're building upgradually, they're not gonna be
able to truly hit 90% at 20yards.
So all we do is we ramp thosepercentages in that distance,
(37:03):
um, up and out over the courseof that four weeks.
So that's how we build in.
Our gradual progression to tomax V.
And then by the end of that fourweeks, we will start using, um,
our gates, our, uh, free lapsystem, what whatever we're
using at the time, uh, to timethose athletes in a flying tin.
Um, usually after four or fiveweeks, but it's, it's just build
(37:25):
up for us.
It's gradual, uh, acclimationto, to, um, to speed.
That's really all it is.
Mike (37:33):
which makes sense o obviously, but it's, you know,
some, I, I've seen people getexcited, say, oh, everybody
needs a sprint, let's startsprinting next week.
Right.
And, and you have to be careful,like a max intent sprint has to
be something you're preparedfor.
And, and, and, you know, I, I, Ithink, uh, you know, just making
sure the young professionalsunderstand what you're saying
there, I think that's, that'simportant.
(37:53):
How much of this information doyou apply to rotational things
and oblique injuries?
We're talking hamstringinjuries.
Right.
Well, what about obliqueinjuries and rotational
velocity?
Uh, do you do similarprogressions and max intense
stuff with like med balls and,and hitting programs, that sort
of thing?
Is this, does this parallel witho.
Zach (38:14):
Yeah.
I mean, to me it's, it's, it'sall one in the same language,
right?
You've, you've just gotta useprogressive overload and
progressive, um, increases involume and intensity with
anything that you do.
For us, it's gonna start withextensive means for the most
part.
Extensive means are gonna be submaximal, um, you know, and we
usually say 50 to 70% on that.
(38:36):
So we'll start, our med ballthrows with extensive med ball
throws 50 to 70% intensity, andwe're gonna ramp up over the
course of two to four weeks intoa maximal, into a maximal throw.
Essentially everything we do,we're gonna start with those
extensive means and thenintensify.
If we add anything to ourprogram in the middle of, uh, a
semester, we start withextensive.
(38:59):
As an introduction and then weintensify it over the course of
a couple weeks.
So let's say, you know, in blocktwo we're gonna add, um, some
type of, of jump in block one.
Halfway through we start addingthat jump in at submaximal va at
submaximal intensity.
So 50%.
So if you were gonna do a, whoknows a trap bar jump, let's add
(39:19):
that trap bar.
Jump in.
But we're not gonna use Maxintent, so we're gonna get
familiar with the.
and then two weeks down the roadwhen it becomes part of our
program, instead of justrandomly throwing it in, and now
we're jumping really, reallyhigh, fast, whatever, powerful,
with a, with a load, we'vealready had exposure to it.
Sub maximal intensities,everything in, to me, everything
should happen like that.
(39:39):
Throwing programs, hittingprograms.
Your, your, your energy, energysystem development, everything.
Like we see, we see way too manycoaches and athletes just jump
into something.
you know, full intent rightaway.
High volumes.
And those workloads spike, likeyou said, and, and the result is
usually not.
Mike (40:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I, I, I agree.
And, and, and I, I think this isa great episode, right?
Because I think the wholeconcept of training with intent
and this max velocity, thosetypes of things, I, I think it's
something that we can allcontinue to improve on.
And I, I, I think you've, you'vemade it a science.
Right.
You've, you've developed a niceway to on-ramp it and to monitor
(40:21):
it and to quantify it.
And I, I think that's, that'sthe way to go.
Um, so, um, you know, to me, Ithink this is something that
people need to pay attention towhen you, when, when you do,
it's not just what do you do,but how do you do it.
And I, and I think that's onething that you've done over your
16 years at TCU, is you'vefigured out a little bit of, of,
of the recipe, right?
Not just the ingredients, butyou've, you've, you've figured
(40:42):
out a little bit of how to applythat.
And I think that's the partthat's really neat about your.
Zach (40:47):
Well, we're, we're trying every day.
We're trying to improve so thatwe can have our athletes
withstand that first four weeks.
I mean, that's when everybodygets hurt.
Really.
Mike (40:55):
right?
Zach (40:56):
it's the first four weeks.
It's for the pre-season.
you know, major league baseball.
The injury rates are highestduring the spring training.
That's it that that first eightweeks that you guys have in
spring training, in the firstcouple weeks of the season,
that's when the injury rates arehighest.
We've gotta build resilient,robust athletes to be able to
withstand the practices so thatthey can get to the games.
(41:17):
That's what our goal ends.
Mike (41:18):
Yep.
Movement over maxes resilientathletes.
I love it.
Awesome.
All right, well, great stuff.
Zach.
Uh, before I let you go, I'dlike to end with a little high
five section, five quickquestions, five quick answers.
Um, you just wanna hear a littlebit about what's going on in
your brain a little bit, right?
So first question is, what areyou currently reading or
(41:39):
learning?
What are you doing for your ownprofessional development right
now?
Zach (41:44):
Oh boy.
Mike (41:47):
I mean, I, I know you, you got a young family, a lot of but
I'm sure you're still, you'restill learning.
Zach (41:55):
Uh, yeah.
So most recent book was, um, oh,what was it?
It was, uh, one of Alex Hermo.
Don't laugh.
This is one of
Mike (42:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Zach (42:04):
A hundred million dollar Offers by Alex Hermo.
Mike (42:07):
Nice.
There you go.
Did you make any yet?
Zach (42:11):
I, I wish.
Yeah, I haven't seen that checkyet.
Come in.
There hasn't been much time forthat, so,
Mike (42:18):
That's awesome.
That's a good, that's a goodone.
All right.
What's one thing that you'verecently changed your mind
about?
Zach (42:24):
I guess one thing I've changed my mind about has been
the, um, just being able toobjectify rotator cuff and, and
scapular strength.
Something that I haven't done inthe past.
We've been using the, uh, armcare app to do that with our
athletes, and I've seen somereally, really impressive things
recently.
So, um, I didn't, didn't realizethat was important.
As important as I think it,it's, um, in the.
Mike (42:48):
I love it.
Yeah, that's great.
That's, that's, that's my worldright there.
So I, it's good to see youcoming on over to appreciating
that.
That's awesome.
Um, alright.
This one's easy.
This one's easy for you.
What, what's the biggest pieceof advice you love to give your
interns?
Zach (43:04):
The biggest piece of advice is take care of your
body.
It's the only one you get.
I heard that from Warren Buffet.
He said, if you only had one caryour entire life, how well would
you take care of it?
Well, that's your body and mybody is, is old and broken down
and so my biggest piece ofadvice to any up and coming
coaches take care of your body.
Mike (43:25):
That's actually good.
You know, I, I, we, we don'tfocus on that enough, right?
We're, we're, we're alwayshelping other people.
We never help ourselves.
Zach (43:32):
Yeah.
Mike (43:33):
a good, that's a good one.
Awesome.
All right.
What's coming up next for you?
What are we gonna, we gonna findanything new coming from Zach?
Any new products?
You speaking anywhere, anything,uh, in the works?
Zach (43:43):
So right now I'm actually developing, uh, finishing up a,
um, an in-season program forpitchers to basically do
remotely.
Just something that, that, that,you know, high school college
athletes can just kind of jumpon.
It's gonna be on the bridge appwhere they'll have access to,
you know, four a six day.
(44:03):
a week, workouts, um, anywhere,cuz a lot of, a lot of athletes
don't have access to that.
And so, uh, this is somethingwe're kind of finishing up for
the end season so that, youknow, maybe, uh, maybe pitchers
can take care of themselves alittle better.
Mike (44:16):
That'd be great.
That'd be a great addition.
I love that.
Um, and then last thing is howdo we learn more about you?
I know you have a website, somesocial, where do you wanna send
people?
Where, where are you the most?
Zach (44:27):
Yeah, so Zach Dcon, um, is the handle at Twitter and
Instagram, and then the websiteis Zach Dcon, you know, happy to
answer any questions.
If they ever reach out, they canshoot me an email through the
TCU website.
And happy to help as much as Ican.
Mike (44:43):
That's awesome.
Well, thank you so much.
Really appreciate you coming onthe podcast today, Zack, taking
some time out.
Good luck this season and uh,hopefully we'll get you on
another podcast in the future.
We'll talk about something else.
Zach (44:54):
I really appreciate it, Mike.
Thanks for having me.
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