September 16, 2025 • 23 mins
In this empowering episode, Deborah Coviello, Founder of Drop In CEO, shares shares strategies for CEO leadership. If you struggle with chaos or burnout, you won't want to miss it.
You will discover:
- Why prioritize peace of mind before pursuing results
- How to define your purpose through self-reflection
- How to evolve people processes to unleash potential
This episode is ideal for for Founders, Owners, and CEOs in stage 4 of The Founder's Evolution. Not sure which stage you're in? Find out for free in less than 10 minutes at https://www.scalearchitects.com/founders/quiz
Known as The Drop-In CEO, Deb’s superpower is lowering the temperature and elevating conversations with empathy and patience. As a speaker, author, podcaster, and consultant, she teaches C-Suite leaders how to establish a “Lift, Light, Lead” environment and create calm amidst chaos or crisis. She is the author of “The CEO’s Compass: Your Guide to Get Back on Track” and “The NEW CEO Playbook: Stop Chasing Results and Start Pursuing Peace of Mind.” Her long-running podcast, The Drop-In CEO, is in the top 1.5% globally among Apple podcasts.
Want to learn more about Deborah Coviello's work at Drop In CEO? Check out her website at https://dropinceo.com/ and get a free chapter of her book The CEO’s Compass: Your Guide to Get Back on Track at https://dropinceo.com/gift
Mentioned in this episode:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
All right, let's get to the top of the notes and do this.
Hello, hello and welcome.
Welcome once again to the Start, Scale and Succeed podcast.
It's the only podcast that grows with you through all seven stages of your journey as afounder.
Now, I've got a question for you founders listening today.
Are you the CEO of your business or for those of you in the nonprofit space, are you theexecutive director or senior pastor?
(00:29):
Now, I'm not.
asking about the title on your email signature or the name, the title next to your name onthe org chart.
Instead, what I'm asking about is whether you are doing the things that a CEO should dofor the reasons that a CEO should do them.
Because just having the title doesn't mean you're doing the job or even understand whatthat job is.
(00:52):
But if that's you, if you're not ultra clear on what it means to be CEO of yourorganization, don't worry because you're absolutely in the right
Here with us today is Deb Coviello, who is known as the drop-in CEO.
Her superpower is lowering the temperature and elevating conversations with empathy andpatience.
(01:13):
As a speaker, author, podcaster, and consultant, she teaches C-suite leaders how toestablish a lift light lead environment and create calm amidst chaos or crisis.
She's the author of the book, The CEO's Compass, your guide to get back on track.
and the new CEO playbook, Stop Chasing Results and Start Pursuing Peace of Mind.
(01:33):
Her long running podcast, The Drop-in CEO is in the top 1.5 % of podcasts globally amongApple podcasts.
She's here with us today.
Deb, so excited to have you.
I was going through your book, The CEO Compass, and one of the things that I noted as Iwas reading through is you start off with peace of mind and...
(01:55):
Hmm
like weird as this sounds, I can't think of a founder who didn't want peace, but I alsocan't think of many who actually have it.
uh Peace of mind is so important.
If so, like why is it so rare?
Well, mean, first of all, Scott, thank you so much for the opportunity to share myinsights around that.
(02:15):
ah One of the reasons, there's two things that I want to say to founders about Peace ofMind is one is you have to be able to see it, feel it, and know what Peace of Mind looks
like.
And then the second thing is to change your playbook because we are rewarded, we arecelebrated.
Stakeholders, shareholders all depend on us to get results versus Peace of Mind, but it isa disciplined leader.
(02:38):
that can visualize and articulate what peace of mind is not only for themselves, but alsofor the teams that they lead.
Because ultimately, if they can define what peace of mind is, unleash the potential oftheir people, and do the CEO work versus being down in their business, they are going to
reach peace of mind and have sustainable results and also, quite frankly, be able to sleepat night.
(03:01):
but it's really about undoing that playbook that's always worked for us, whether incorporate or what have you, and think about what is it that the CEO should be doing is
removing all the barriers to ultimately achieve peace of mind.
Yeah, I love even the metaphor of the playbook because one of the things that I see forfolks at this stage is as founder, they've moved from being that like player slash captain
(03:24):
slash hero to save the day on the field, you know, where they could just jump in and makeit happen.
And usually because the organization is just so big and complex, they can't quite do that.
They can't throw the whole organization on their back anymore.
And so it's kind of like being a coach on the sideline, having to depend on others to makeit work.
And if that's the case, that playbook is all important because it is the way that youorchestrate.
(03:50):
It is the way that you create success, not just for the team, but for yourself.
um But there's a real tension on that and you opened up right out of the gate with itbeautifully, but.
There's some folks listening that are I don't get paid for that, right?
Or I don't make more profit for that.
How do you help folks to reconcile the short run tension between profit and peace?
(04:14):
Well, we have people that count on us, people that we have to make sure the business isrunning so that we can pay people and they can still enjoy their livelihood.
So you will always be somewhat in the weeds and somewhat involved in the day to day toassure that we are getting those short term results.
That's what keeps business in line.
But what we have to as a CEO is make sure that we have trusted partners within ourorganization that can execute the day to day so that you can parse out enough of your time
(04:43):
in that day, week and month, it continually moves the needle when it comes to thatstrategic work.
mean, case in point, I have one CEO right now that uh is doing the CEO work and is handsoff.
from the operations and without having a clear vision of what peace of mind is, what we'retrying to strive for, the operations is in constant chaos.
(05:04):
That CEO needs to actually relearn what the role is, set the vision, set the direction andmake sure that that information is cascaded down and understood in two way understanding,
not just one way communication such that the people who are operators, integrators knowexactly what the mission is.
With periodic check-ins, trust,
(05:25):
but verify because it could be fun selling, be outward facing, but you need to actually becomfortable and confident that the people are executing on your vision.
So it's a little bit of a shift of being in the game, which does give you a lot ofsatisfaction, but wouldn't it be more satisfying if your people had your back, your people
were taking care of your customer, and you could continue to build more more relationshipsand set that vision.
(05:48):
Again, it's a little bit of a shift on what that CEO needs to do.
Yeah, for sure.
Another one of the compass points that you lay out in the book and you've kind of umalready connected us to here is purpose.
And so, um the thing that was really interesting to me as I was reading through the bookis um why purpose followed peace and not the other way around.
(06:14):
I thought that order was intriguing.
Well, you can have purpose of, know, we're here and here's one particular favoritestatement I have.
It's not to be number one in the market, but be the favorite of our customers.
It's a slightly different purpose that I want people to really think about.
But you can have your purpose and you could run people ragged trying to get the results tobe the favorite.
(06:36):
But unless you have that vision, unless you have peace of mind, again, that is a state ofbeing.
That is an outcome of the work that you're doing.
You could have purpose.
and get results and burn the people out and you'll never achieve peace of mind.
So I always make sure that the leaders when they're feeling stuck, when they're feelingoff track, when they're looking out the window and not losing their confidence, because
(06:57):
they don't know how to get out of their current state.
start with the, versus your mind say you need to take time to understand what is peace ofmind.
Start with the leader first, get them in a better place and then lead with your purpose,lead with your purpose.
And around that purpose then goes to the other compass point, then how do you,
unleash the potential or performance of your people on route to that purpose.
(07:19):
Again, this very strategically, I put these compass points in certain places and in thearea of importance.
I love that because one of the things that I see folks em where it starts to unravel atthis stage is they've kind of, I would say borrowed visions for their organization, right?
Like it's like from their dad to their buddy to the business group that they're in, likewho knows where it comes from, but there's this like preconceived notion of what our
(07:50):
vision needs to be.
And because it's not ours, we have no peace with it.
my God.
so you just pursue it and pursue it and pursue it and then you realize like, hey,businesses get bigger, they don't get better.
And so let me ask you this because I think you're striking a chord.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it's actually this that I wanna talk about.
(08:12):
Like, why is it that we're so prone to borrowing other people's visions for ourorganization?
my goodness, because maybe we don't even know how to do self-reflection.
We don't even know how to look inside of ourselves and take that time to understand whatis my reason for being?
What is my value?
I mean, honestly, I was in a role that, you know, I was trying to burn the people out andwork harder and smarter, and I wasn't getting the results.
(08:35):
But once I took some time to self-reflect and realize...
The only reason why I'm here is to help my people struggle less so they can spend moretime doing the things that they love to do.
I don't want them working 10, 12, 14 hour days, but wouldn't it be much better if theycould get what their work is done?
I help remove the barriers so they can spend more time with their family.
That was really the purpose of what I was doing.
(08:58):
It wasn't necessarily increasing stakeholder value or anything like that.
Yeah.
and leaders need to take that time because if you don't take that time for thatself-reflection, you're to be leading a ship to God knows where.
Yeah, 100%.
Now, one of the things that drives this, and another one of your compass points is thepast.
And I know for me, when I was in my uh kind of early founder days, really first decade, itwas always the next hill.
(09:26):
It was just like, we'd conquer, it was next hill, next hill, next hill.
And I remember leaders coming to me and it's like, we never celebrate anything, let alonereflect on anything.
And so,
When you have these kind of type A, vision oriented, future oriented folks, what's thecost of not dealing with the compass point of the past?
(09:49):
So we bring new people into our fold.
We hire new people, we acquire people, and these visionaries, these A1 personalities havea lot to their credit, they get results.
But what happens, and I had this happen to me once when I failed to appreciate the past ofthe people on my team or where they came from, I actually shut them down.
(10:11):
I never recognized their full value.
So while it is a superpower to move forward and fast,
We need to be disciplined and slow down to get to know our people because maybe there wassomething about this past team, the senior leader in your organization that was of immense
value.
And you never know like you're having problems with the customer, but maybe this person 20years ago had a really tight relationship with that customer.
(10:34):
If you took the time to understand their past, you could bring their value forward intothe current state and become a hero.
Otherwise, we don't get full potential from the people if we don't spend timeunderstanding the past.
I wanna keep moving through this because I think they're excellent points that you makehere in the book.
So the next one was pride, uh which struck me as like, we're getting somewhere now becausepride is not something we like to talk a whole lot about.
(11:05):
It has both very positive connotations, it has very negative connotations.
It's a really tricky word and can be really tricky concept in the workplace.
how...
um
What start with a definition for us?
think that'd be helpful.
Like what does a pride what does pride mean to you?
And then how can we use that to navigate being a CEO?
(11:26):
So one of the things that's interesting through my conversations, I also talk about thepride of the CEO.
It's one of those things, and again, I'll come back to the pride at Compass Point, but Iwant to get this in.
To the CEOs and founders out there, you may have a lot of pride based on your pastsuccesses, and you get to a place of being stuck, whatever it is.
The conditions change, the customers change, et cetera.
(11:48):
But it is that pride that is wonderful, again, as a superpower, but overutilized that.
Pride is your detriment because it holds you back or you're not willing to bring inexternal resources.
So that's where Pride may have a negative connotation and I suggest to you, you check yourPride at the door and be open to other inputs or possibly external resources to get you
(12:09):
through the challenge.
Now going back to Pride from a positive perspective, the Pride Compass point was somethingthat I learned in my corporate career.
And what I call Pride is one's intellectual property.
of the individuals.
When you have intellectual properties in a company, such as tech, et cetera, you putpatents on that.
But when it comes to the people and their knowledge, often these A1 leaders will gostraight ahead, let's conquer that hill, and don't spend time understanding the unique
(12:37):
value and gifts of those people.
They think just in terms of here's a body that fills a job function, that's all I need.
Leaders need to form.
closer human connection with the people on their teams to understand that unique valuethat maybe they had five, 10, 15 years ago, maybe they developed a platform, et cetera.
By recognizing that, we pay respect to those individuals.
And you may not need that intellectual property now, but at least you've taken the time toget to know it and you may need it sometime in the future.
(13:04):
It's an important compass point when we skip over it, we lose the horsepower of ourpeople.
Yeah.
There's this interesting dynamic that happens for a lot of our founders at this samestage, which is where um they find themselves kind of both over reliant and under reliant
on their people.
There's this sense of um we we've got bigger problems.
(13:27):
We need bigger heroes like I've relied on Jeff all my life.
I'm going to rely on Jeff all my life.
And it's kind of like everything is bottled up in one or two people.
But at the same time,
we're missing that in the whole rest of the staff.
so how do you, especially in like a tight-knit group, right?
Those who were there, who've got the battle scars together, how do you bring other peopleinto that from a pride perspective?
(13:54):
Well, again, it's a conversation with that leader.
I can give you all the tactical ways to do it, but often we have to say, why then do younot trust distributing the work to others in your organization?
I mean, you brought these people on to perform a task to add the capacity.
And when you don't trust or take the time to, can I leverage the legacy of my go-topeople, capture their intellectual property?
(14:22):
for a sustainable effect and then cascade, document and cascade that.
Ultimately as a leader, it is about leaving our legacy, not relying on those go-to people.
Because those go-to people unfortunately might go away.
And then where is that intellectual property that you didn't preserve?
Our leaders are not just about getting results, but think about what legacy do you wannaleave?
(14:43):
And those people that you hire afterwards will remember you because you trusted them andyou trusted your senior go-to people.
to pass on that knowledge because ultimately we're in business to stay in business.
And the only way we can do that is to trust and leave a legacy by transferring thatknowledge.
If you don't, again, you're gonna burn the people out.
If something bad happens to one of those people, you're up the creek.
(15:07):
So think about it, your job is risk management and how can you mitigate that?
Yeah, and so one of the primary mechanisms that we use for kind of capturing thatinstitutional knowledge is processes.
And this is another one of those words that I feel like has about a thousand differentdefinitions.
It seems very simple, but the way we think about, talk about, and use systems andprocesses is very, very different.
(15:31):
So within the context of the CEO Compass, what does process mean to you?
Oh my, you are well read and I really appreciate that.
But this is a distinction, you know, in my upbringing and training as a quality engineer,we talk about fixing people, process and tools or platforms.
And we think about, let's write a procedure, let's have a workshop.
(15:52):
And if people don't follow the rules, we, you know, write them up, no.
What I say as a leader, and this goes to the tactical side of the compass, is our role isto observe not only the individual, their confidence, their capability, their capacity to
be able to
them and build the essential skills because we bring in very talented people.
But sometimes we just leave them alone and never fully develop them to take on more andmore responsibility.
(16:16):
And then when we talk about process, it is the dynamics and the interaction of thesepeople.
You may have people that sit on the sidelines and hold knowledge.
You have other people that don't know how to have crucial conversations.
Our job as a leader is to have a radar up and evolve the people processes to unleash theirpotential.
Yes.
(16:36):
but the barriers when they're there and they don't know how to communicate decreases theirefficiency and you don't get full utilization out of them.
That's what I mean by process is an area where leaders or designees need to unleash thatpotential.
I could not agree more with that.
And it's a little bit of a pet peeve for me when people talk about process and you knowthat they think SOP, right?
(16:57):
Like that's really what they're talking about is these literal steps on how to dosomething.
especially at this stage, not that those things are inherently wrong, but they're notenough.
There's so much more going on between the people.
And I love that you made such a big point out of that in the book.
And I think it's so underrated for most CEOs.
(17:18):
Yeah, again, humans still run the world.
I don't care about AI being an efficiency tool.
People have emotions, people interact with people.
That's how work gets done.
That's who your customers interface with.
And again, the other thing you should be thinking about while you're out trying to get newcustomers.
If you people don't have the confidence or capacity or capability to do the work and youhaven't evolved their skills, who's going to feel the pain?
(17:41):
Your customers.
And so pay it forward now, take care of your people.
They'll take care of your customers.
Yeah.
If I remember correctly, and that's not always a given, but so correct me if I'm wrong,but uh performance was the last of the compass points.
Is that right?
Yeah, that's one of the things, and this is more on the strategic side.
(18:02):
When we think about performance, um often we think about the results.
So are we going to make our EBITDA, market share, sales numbers, what have you,operational efficiencies?
And yes, those are important.
But the problem is our thinking is that those are lagging indicators and not leadingindicators of success.
I propose to leaders that they rethink what performance is and going back to the peopledimension.
(18:24):
When we look at the capability and capacity of their people.
Are they living up to their capability and capacity?
And mind you, is confidence in the way of them being able to achieve.
Think about what those leading indicators are.
Who has been trained?
Who has a bit gone through, who knows how to do crucial conversation?
Is everybody lined up with a mentor or a coach?
When we invest in our people and set up those leading indicators of training, of evolvingskills, et cetera, those are what we should be measuring performance.
(18:52):
Because when we can unleash the provincial,
how many risks are people identifying and mitigating, those are all leading indicators offuture success.
So I propose we start setting up leading indicators of performance in addition to thelagging indicators of performance.
Yeah, we have only scratched the surface of the surface and it's already fascinating.
(19:15):
again, highly recommend the book.
We'll make sure folks know how they can get a copy of it in a second.
But first, I have one more question that I want to ask you that I ask all my guests.
And that question is this, what is the biggest secret you wish wasn't a secret at all?
What's that one thing you wish everybody watching or listening today knew?
So it's so simple, but I want to get inside every one of your founders head.
(19:37):
said, have the courage to ask for help.
Don't wait too long.
Don't let pride get in your way.
Don't let your old playbook get in the way.
When you start getting that uneasy feeling in your gut that something's not working andit's getting away from you and you've not faced this challenge before, I ask of you have
the pride, have the discipline and the courage to ask for help.
(19:58):
It is a source of strength.
It starts with you.
Deb, there's some folks listening and it's just the right thing, the right time, rightseason, right everything.
Where can they get a copy of the book?
Where can they find more out about the work that you do?
All right, well, again, Scott, thank you so much for the opportunity.
A quick way to get a hold of me is just go to my website, dropinceo.com.
(20:22):
And also I'd like to emphasize forward slash gif because there you can get a free chapterof the CEO's Compass in PDF.
or audio form, as well as a sample of some of my podcast bundles that you might actuallyenjoy.
And there too, you can also find how to purchase the book.
But again, Scott, I am grateful for the opportunity to speak to your audience, yourfounders and CEOs.
(20:44):
Thanks, Deb.
Well, it was really a privilege and honor having you here.
Loved this conversation.
Could have gone on for a very long time.
But for those of you listening, you know that your time and attention mean the world tous.
I hope you got as much out of this conversation as I know I did, and I cannot wait to seeyou next time.
Take care.
All right, let's get to the top of the notes and do this.
Hello, hello and welcome.
Welcome once again to the Start, Scale and Succeed podcast.
It's the only podcast that grows with you through all seven stages of your journey as afounder.
Now, I've got a question for you founders listening today.
Are you the CEO of your business or for those of you in the nonprofit space, are you theexecutive director or senior pastor?
(00:29):
Now, I'm not.
asking about the title on your email signature or the name, the title next to your name onthe org chart.
Instead, what I'm asking about is whether you are doing the things that a CEO should dofor the reasons that a CEO should do them.
Because just having the title doesn't mean you're doing the job or even understand whatthat job is.
(00:52):
But if that's you, if you're not ultra clear on what it means to be CEO of yourorganization, don't worry because you're absolutely in the right
Here with us today is Deb Coviello, who is known as the drop-in CEO.
Her superpower is lowering the temperature and elevating conversations with empathy andpatience.
(01:13):
As a speaker, author, podcaster, and consultant, she teaches C-suite leaders how toestablish a lift light lead environment and create calm amidst chaos or crisis.
She's the author of the book, The CEO's Compass, your guide to get back on track.
and the new CEO playbook, Stop Chasing Results and Start Pursuing Peace of Mind.
(01:33):
Her long running podcast, The Drop-in CEO is in the top 1.5 % of podcasts globally amongApple podcasts.
She's here with us today.
Deb, so excited to have you.
I was going through your book, The CEO Compass, and one of the things that I noted as Iwas reading through is you start off with peace of mind and...
(01:55):
Hmm
like weird as this sounds, I can't think of a founder who didn't want peace, but I alsocan't think of many who actually have it.
uh Peace of mind is so important.
If so, like why is it so rare?
Well, mean, first of all, Scott, thank you so much for the opportunity to share myinsights around that.
(02:15):
ah One of the reasons, there's two things that I want to say to founders about Peace ofMind is one is you have to be able to see it, feel it, and know what Peace of Mind looks
like.
And then the second thing is to change your playbook because we are rewarded, we arecelebrated.
Stakeholders, shareholders all depend on us to get results versus Peace of Mind, but it isa disciplined leader.
(02:38):
that can visualize and articulate what peace of mind is not only for themselves, but alsofor the teams that they lead.
Because ultimately, if they can define what peace of mind is, unleash the potential oftheir people, and do the CEO work versus being down in their business, they are going to
reach peace of mind and have sustainable results and also, quite frankly, be able to sleepat night.
(03:01):
but it's really about undoing that playbook that's always worked for us, whether incorporate or what have you, and think about what is it that the CEO should be doing is
removing all the barriers to ultimately achieve peace of mind.
Yeah, I love even the metaphor of the playbook because one of the things that I see forfolks at this stage is as founder, they've moved from being that like player slash captain
(03:24):
slash hero to save the day on the field, you know, where they could just jump in and makeit happen.
And usually because the organization is just so big and complex, they can't quite do that.
They can't throw the whole organization on their back anymore.
And so it's kind of like being a coach on the sideline, having to depend on others to makeit work.
And if that's the case, that playbook is all important because it is the way that youorchestrate.
(03:50):
It is the way that you create success, not just for the team, but for yourself.
um But there's a real tension on that and you opened up right out of the gate with itbeautifully, but.
There's some folks listening that are I don't get paid for that, right?
Or I don't make more profit for that.
How do you help folks to reconcile the short run tension between profit and peace?
(04:14):
Well, we have people that count on us, people that we have to make sure the business isrunning so that we can pay people and they can still enjoy their livelihood.
So you will always be somewhat in the weeds and somewhat involved in the day to day toassure that we are getting those short term results.
That's what keeps business in line.
But what we have to as a CEO is make sure that we have trusted partners within ourorganization that can execute the day to day so that you can parse out enough of your time
(04:43):
in that day, week and month, it continually moves the needle when it comes to thatstrategic work.
mean, case in point, I have one CEO right now that uh is doing the CEO work and is handsoff.
from the operations and without having a clear vision of what peace of mind is, what we'retrying to strive for, the operations is in constant chaos.
(05:04):
That CEO needs to actually relearn what the role is, set the vision, set the direction andmake sure that that information is cascaded down and understood in two way understanding,
not just one way communication such that the people who are operators, integrators knowexactly what the mission is.
With periodic check-ins, trust,
(05:25):
but verify because it could be fun selling, be outward facing, but you need to actually becomfortable and confident that the people are executing on your vision.
So it's a little bit of a shift of being in the game, which does give you a lot ofsatisfaction, but wouldn't it be more satisfying if your people had your back, your people
were taking care of your customer, and you could continue to build more more relationshipsand set that vision.
(05:48):
Again, it's a little bit of a shift on what that CEO needs to do.
Yeah, for sure.
Another one of the compass points that you lay out in the book and you've kind of umalready connected us to here is purpose.
And so, um the thing that was really interesting to me as I was reading through the bookis um why purpose followed peace and not the other way around.
(06:14):
I thought that order was intriguing.
Well, you can have purpose of, know, we're here and here's one particular favoritestatement I have.
It's not to be number one in the market, but be the favorite of our customers.
It's a slightly different purpose that I want people to really think about.
But you can have your purpose and you could run people ragged trying to get the results tobe the favorite.
(06:36):
But unless you have that vision, unless you have peace of mind, again, that is a state ofbeing.
That is an outcome of the work that you're doing.
You could have purpose.
and get results and burn the people out and you'll never achieve peace of mind.
So I always make sure that the leaders when they're feeling stuck, when they're feelingoff track, when they're looking out the window and not losing their confidence, because
(06:57):
they don't know how to get out of their current state.
start with the, versus your mind say you need to take time to understand what is peace ofmind.
Start with the leader first, get them in a better place and then lead with your purpose,lead with your purpose.
And around that purpose then goes to the other compass point, then how do you,
unleash the potential or performance of your people on route to that purpose.
(07:19):
Again, this very strategically, I put these compass points in certain places and in thearea of importance.
I love that because one of the things that I see folks em where it starts to unravel atthis stage is they've kind of, I would say borrowed visions for their organization, right?
Like it's like from their dad to their buddy to the business group that they're in, likewho knows where it comes from, but there's this like preconceived notion of what our
(07:50):
vision needs to be.
And because it's not ours, we have no peace with it.
my God.
so you just pursue it and pursue it and pursue it and then you realize like, hey,businesses get bigger, they don't get better.
And so let me ask you this because I think you're striking a chord.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it's actually this that I wanna talk about.
(08:12):
Like, why is it that we're so prone to borrowing other people's visions for ourorganization?
my goodness, because maybe we don't even know how to do self-reflection.
We don't even know how to look inside of ourselves and take that time to understand whatis my reason for being?
What is my value?
I mean, honestly, I was in a role that, you know, I was trying to burn the people out andwork harder and smarter, and I wasn't getting the results.
(08:35):
But once I took some time to self-reflect and realize...
The only reason why I'm here is to help my people struggle less so they can spend moretime doing the things that they love to do.
I don't want them working 10, 12, 14 hour days, but wouldn't it be much better if theycould get what their work is done?
I help remove the barriers so they can spend more time with their family.
That was really the purpose of what I was doing.
(08:58):
It wasn't necessarily increasing stakeholder value or anything like that.
Yeah.
and leaders need to take that time because if you don't take that time for thatself-reflection, you're to be leading a ship to God knows where.
Yeah, 100%.
Now, one of the things that drives this, and another one of your compass points is thepast.
And I know for me, when I was in my uh kind of early founder days, really first decade, itwas always the next hill.
(09:26):
It was just like, we'd conquer, it was next hill, next hill, next hill.
And I remember leaders coming to me and it's like, we never celebrate anything, let alonereflect on anything.
And so,
When you have these kind of type A, vision oriented, future oriented folks, what's thecost of not dealing with the compass point of the past?
(09:49):
So we bring new people into our fold.
We hire new people, we acquire people, and these visionaries, these A1 personalities havea lot to their credit, they get results.
But what happens, and I had this happen to me once when I failed to appreciate the past ofthe people on my team or where they came from, I actually shut them down.
(10:11):
I never recognized their full value.
So while it is a superpower to move forward and fast,
We need to be disciplined and slow down to get to know our people because maybe there wassomething about this past team, the senior leader in your organization that was of immense
value.
And you never know like you're having problems with the customer, but maybe this person 20years ago had a really tight relationship with that customer.
(10:34):
If you took the time to understand their past, you could bring their value forward intothe current state and become a hero.
Otherwise, we don't get full potential from the people if we don't spend timeunderstanding the past.
I wanna keep moving through this because I think they're excellent points that you makehere in the book.
So the next one was pride, uh which struck me as like, we're getting somewhere now becausepride is not something we like to talk a whole lot about.
(11:05):
It has both very positive connotations, it has very negative connotations.
It's a really tricky word and can be really tricky concept in the workplace.
how...
um
What start with a definition for us?
think that'd be helpful.
Like what does a pride what does pride mean to you?
And then how can we use that to navigate being a CEO?
(11:26):
So one of the things that's interesting through my conversations, I also talk about thepride of the CEO.
It's one of those things, and again, I'll come back to the pride at Compass Point, but Iwant to get this in.
To the CEOs and founders out there, you may have a lot of pride based on your pastsuccesses, and you get to a place of being stuck, whatever it is.
The conditions change, the customers change, et cetera.
(11:48):
But it is that pride that is wonderful, again, as a superpower, but overutilized that.
Pride is your detriment because it holds you back or you're not willing to bring inexternal resources.
So that's where Pride may have a negative connotation and I suggest to you, you check yourPride at the door and be open to other inputs or possibly external resources to get you
(12:09):
through the challenge.
Now going back to Pride from a positive perspective, the Pride Compass point was somethingthat I learned in my corporate career.
And what I call Pride is one's intellectual property.
of the individuals.
When you have intellectual properties in a company, such as tech, et cetera, you putpatents on that.
But when it comes to the people and their knowledge, often these A1 leaders will gostraight ahead, let's conquer that hill, and don't spend time understanding the unique
(12:37):
value and gifts of those people.
They think just in terms of here's a body that fills a job function, that's all I need.
Leaders need to form.
closer human connection with the people on their teams to understand that unique valuethat maybe they had five, 10, 15 years ago, maybe they developed a platform, et cetera.
By recognizing that, we pay respect to those individuals.
And you may not need that intellectual property now, but at least you've taken the time toget to know it and you may need it sometime in the future.
(13:04):
It's an important compass point when we skip over it, we lose the horsepower of ourpeople.
Yeah.
There's this interesting dynamic that happens for a lot of our founders at this samestage, which is where um they find themselves kind of both over reliant and under reliant
on their people.
There's this sense of um we we've got bigger problems.
(13:27):
We need bigger heroes like I've relied on Jeff all my life.
I'm going to rely on Jeff all my life.
And it's kind of like everything is bottled up in one or two people.
But at the same time,
we're missing that in the whole rest of the staff.
so how do you, especially in like a tight-knit group, right?
Those who were there, who've got the battle scars together, how do you bring other peopleinto that from a pride perspective?
(13:54):
Well, again, it's a conversation with that leader.
I can give you all the tactical ways to do it, but often we have to say, why then do younot trust distributing the work to others in your organization?
I mean, you brought these people on to perform a task to add the capacity.
And when you don't trust or take the time to, can I leverage the legacy of my go-topeople, capture their intellectual property?
(14:22):
for a sustainable effect and then cascade, document and cascade that.
Ultimately as a leader, it is about leaving our legacy, not relying on those go-to people.
Because those go-to people unfortunately might go away.
And then where is that intellectual property that you didn't preserve?
Our leaders are not just about getting results, but think about what legacy do you wannaleave?
(14:43):
And those people that you hire afterwards will remember you because you trusted them andyou trusted your senior go-to people.
to pass on that knowledge because ultimately we're in business to stay in business.
And the only way we can do that is to trust and leave a legacy by transferring thatknowledge.
If you don't, again, you're gonna burn the people out.
If something bad happens to one of those people, you're up the creek.
(15:07):
So think about it, your job is risk management and how can you mitigate that?
Yeah, and so one of the primary mechanisms that we use for kind of capturing thatinstitutional knowledge is processes.
And this is another one of those words that I feel like has about a thousand differentdefinitions.
It seems very simple, but the way we think about, talk about, and use systems andprocesses is very, very different.
(15:31):
So within the context of the CEO Compass, what does process mean to you?
Oh my, you are well read and I really appreciate that.
But this is a distinction, you know, in my upbringing and training as a quality engineer,we talk about fixing people, process and tools or platforms.
And we think about, let's write a procedure, let's have a workshop.
(15:52):
And if people don't follow the rules, we, you know, write them up, no.
What I say as a leader, and this goes to the tactical side of the compass, is our role isto observe not only the individual, their confidence, their capability, their capacity to
be able to
them and build the essential skills because we bring in very talented people.
But sometimes we just leave them alone and never fully develop them to take on more andmore responsibility.
(16:16):
And then when we talk about process, it is the dynamics and the interaction of thesepeople.
You may have people that sit on the sidelines and hold knowledge.
You have other people that don't know how to have crucial conversations.
Our job as a leader is to have a radar up and evolve the people processes to unleash theirpotential.
Yes.
(16:36):
but the barriers when they're there and they don't know how to communicate decreases theirefficiency and you don't get full utilization out of them.
That's what I mean by process is an area where leaders or designees need to unleash thatpotential.
I could not agree more with that.
And it's a little bit of a pet peeve for me when people talk about process and you knowthat they think SOP, right?
(16:57):
Like that's really what they're talking about is these literal steps on how to dosomething.
especially at this stage, not that those things are inherently wrong, but they're notenough.
There's so much more going on between the people.
And I love that you made such a big point out of that in the book.
And I think it's so underrated for most CEOs.
(17:18):
Yeah, again, humans still run the world.
I don't care about AI being an efficiency tool.
People have emotions, people interact with people.
That's how work gets done.
That's who your customers interface with.
And again, the other thing you should be thinking about while you're out trying to get newcustomers.
If you people don't have the confidence or capacity or capability to do the work and youhaven't evolved their skills, who's going to feel the pain?
(17:41):
Your customers.
And so pay it forward now, take care of your people.
They'll take care of your customers.
Yeah.
If I remember correctly, and that's not always a given, but so correct me if I'm wrong,but uh performance was the last of the compass points.
Is that right?
Yeah, that's one of the things, and this is more on the strategic side.
(18:02):
When we think about performance, um often we think about the results.
So are we going to make our EBITDA, market share, sales numbers, what have you,operational efficiencies?
And yes, those are important.
But the problem is our thinking is that those are lagging indicators and not leadingindicators of success.
I propose to leaders that they rethink what performance is and going back to the peopledimension.
(18:24):
When we look at the capability and capacity of their people.
Are they living up to their capability and capacity?
And mind you, is confidence in the way of them being able to achieve.
Think about what those leading indicators are.
Who has been trained?
Who has a bit gone through, who knows how to do crucial conversation?
Is everybody lined up with a mentor or a coach?
When we invest in our people and set up those leading indicators of training, of evolvingskills, et cetera, those are what we should be measuring performance.
(18:52):
Because when we can unleash the provincial,
how many risks are people identifying and mitigating, those are all leading indicators offuture success.
So I propose we start setting up leading indicators of performance in addition to thelagging indicators of performance.
Yeah, we have only scratched the surface of the surface and it's already fascinating.
(19:15):
again, highly recommend the book.
We'll make sure folks know how they can get a copy of it in a second.
But first, I have one more question that I want to ask you that I ask all my guests.
And that question is this, what is the biggest secret you wish wasn't a secret at all?
What's that one thing you wish everybody watching or listening today knew?
So it's so simple, but I want to get inside every one of your founders head.
(19:37):
said, have the courage to ask for help.
Don't wait too long.
Don't let pride get in your way.
Don't let your old playbook get in the way.
When you start getting that uneasy feeling in your gut that something's not working andit's getting away from you and you've not faced this challenge before, I ask of you have
the pride, have the discipline and the courage to ask for help.
(19:58):
It is a source of strength.
It starts with you.
Deb, there's some folks listening and it's just the right thing, the right time, rightseason, right everything.
Where can they get a copy of the book?
Where can they find more out about the work that you do?
All right, well, again, Scott, thank you so much for the opportunity.
A quick way to get a hold of me is just go to my website, dropinceo.com.
(20:22):
And also I'd like to emphasize forward slash gif because there you can get a free chapterof the CEO's Compass in PDF.
or audio form, as well as a sample of some of my podcast bundles that you might actuallyenjoy.
And there too, you can also find how to purchase the book.
But again, Scott, I am grateful for the opportunity to speak to your audience, yourfounders and CEOs.
(20:44):
Thanks, Deb.
Well, it was really a privilege and honor having you here.
Loved this conversation.
Could have gone on for a very long time.
But for those of you listening, you know that your time and attention mean the world tous.
I hope you got as much out of this conversation as I know I did, and I cannot wait to seeyou next time.
Take care.
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