December 23, 2025 • 15 mins
In this practical episode episode, Jody K. Thelander, CEO of J. Thelander Consulting and Morgan Thelander, COO of J. Thelander Consulting, shares how how to fix messy compensation structures using market data. If you struggle with inconsistent pay and retention risks, you won't want to miss it.
You will discover:
- How to use surveys for free, tailored market comp insights
- Why balancing cash and equity prevents talent flight
- What data-driven plans avoid emotional comp pitfalls
This episode is ideal for for Founders, Owners, and CEOs in stage 4 of The Founder's Evolution. Not sure which stage you're in? Find out for free in less than 10 minutes at https://www.scalearchitects.com/founders/quiz
Jody and Morgan Thelander are a powerful mother/daughter duo. The team behind J. Thelander Consulting (recently featured in Forbes) brings unmatched expertise in executive compensation, founder strategy, and leadership alignment at growth-stage companies. They’ve built a reputation for translating complex compensation data into actionable strategies that help founders attract and retain top talent while navigating the scaling journey. Their perspective is especially valuable for your listeners because it bridges the human and financial sides of growth: how leaders get compensated, how to shape culture, and how alignment at the top sets the tone for long-term success.
Want to learn more about Jody K. Thelander and Morgan Thelander's work at J. Thelander Consulting? Check out his website at https://jthelander.com/
Check out this survey at https://survey.jthelander.com/
Connect with Jody K. Thelander at https://www.linkedin.com/in/jody-thelander/
Connect with Morgan at https://www.linkedin.com/in/morgan-thelander/
Mentioned in this episode:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Scott Ritzheimer (00:00):
Hello, hello and welcome. Welcome once again
(00:02):
to the Start scale and succeedpodcast. It's the only podcast
that grows with you through allseven stages of your journey as
a founder, I'm your host, ScottRitzheimer, and today I want to
talk to founders who've builttheir team one handshake deal at
a time. You know exactly who youare, and now you find yourself
staring at a spreadsheet thatmakes no sense. There's dollars
(00:23):
everywhere, there's metricseverywhere, and it's just all
nonsense. You've got someonethat you've hired in year one
who's making more than someoneelse who's been doing that job
better. In year three, you'vegot people being paid for all
kinds of things. You have peoplewith titles that we've used to
compensate for a lack ofcompensation, and it's all just
a big mess. You know, it can'tkeep up, but you don't know how
(00:45):
to move forward. And here's whatmakes it even heavier, is all
the complexity of it. It's notjust numbers, it's the emotions
and the relationships and thefear of what could go wrong if
you get it wrong. And so how dowe do it? How do we tackle this
compensation challenge? How dowe build a streamlined
compensation strategy? Well,today's guests are uniquely
(01:09):
qualified to help us navigatethese waters. Today, we have a
duo with us, both Jody andMorgan Thelander, who are a
powerful mother daughter duo,the team behind J. Thelander
Consulting recently featured inForbes, brings unmatched
expertise in executivecompensation, founder strategy
and leadership alignment atgrowth stage. Companies, they've
(01:31):
built a reputation fortranslating complex compensation
data into actionable strategiesthat help founders attract and
retain top talent whilenavigating the scaling journey.
Their perspective is especiallyvaluable because it bridges the
human and financial sides ofgrowth, how leaders get
compensated, how to shapeculture and how alignment at the
top sets the tone for long termsuccess. Well. Jody, Morgan,
(01:53):
welcome it's a rare day that weget to have two guests on at
once. I'm excited to jump inhere. My first question for the
two of you out of the gate is,you've been doing this together
for a really long time. You'veworked with 1000s of private
companies. What would you say isthe most common mistake that you
see founders make when theystart building out that like
(02:15):
real executive team?
Jody Thelander (02:18):
Well, I'll jump in because I'm the OG of the
house. So I started the company30 years ago, and Morgan's been
with the firm for almost 10which is great. And yes, she is
my daughter. I mean, I would saythe number one mistake, and I
love the way you said it, thatit's a combination of looking at
maybe a cap table and terms, andthen the emotional side behind
it, and then hiring somebody andputting them in a more senior
(02:40):
role, because it seems great atthe time, but then you end up
hiring someone else who isactually more senior, and you're
a little bit in a log jam. So Ithink the number one thing that
would that you've got to do isto really plan it is never too
early to make sure that you lookback. I mean, they're people
like us right there. There is noexcuse not to get it right, and
it's got to be a priority.
Scott Ritzheimer (03:01):
Yeah. So there's this transition that
happens, and it's not all atonce, but it builds and builds
and builds. And we move fromthis kind of one off employment
deal, right, like over ahandshake, whatever it takes to
get them in the door, to anactual compensation strategy.
Tell us, what does that shiftlook like, and why do you find
(03:24):
that so many founders resistmaking that until they're
already in trouble?
Morgan Thelander (03:28):
I don't know if it's so much that they resist
it, that they just don't know,or it's their first company, and
they're a first time founder,CEO, and they don't have the
resources, or they don't knowwhat resources exist. But I
think the biggest thing, kind ofjumping on what Jody said, is
that taking the time to put theformality in place, and having a
(03:49):
compensation structure andhaving a compensation philosophy
that starts at the top, and ittrickles down from there, and
especially from the founderperspective, you only get
founder equity one time. Somaking sure that you get that
mix of cash and equity correctfrom the beginning is really
you'll never regret that ever.
Jody Thelander (04:10):
And also, to bring you back on what Morgan's
saying is, you have a lot offounders make the mistake that
it will work itself out, or thattheir board or investors will
take care of it. And I would saythat's the the worst thing to
do, because if you really wantto be a baller CEO, and you're
innovative and you'reentrepreneurial, but you also
want to be successful, you'vegot to cover both sides of the
(04:31):
innovation as well as the realbusiness side of it, and take
the bull by the horns. It is notyou can't catch and receive the
ball like you've got to be ableto have a plan and execute.
Scott Ritzheimer (04:42):
No joke. This actually just happened last
week. I was sitting down with aclient, and he had been working
on a compensation strategy, andhe was like, just the most
disappointed I'd ever seen him.And they're having this great
year. It's literally recordsetting year he's gonna make the
most profit he's ever madebefore. Sure, and the defining
emotion he's feeling is likethis, like I'm doing this. And
(05:06):
it's interesting how it seemsthat there are a lot of things
that are getting morecomplicated. There are a lot of
things that require them tothink differently as founders,
to become CEOs. But for somereason, compensation hits a
nerve. It starts to hit some ofthose imposter syndrome
impulses. It starts to feel likehandcuffs for folks. Why is it
(05:30):
that there's so much emotion inthis topic?
Jody Thelander (05:33):
Because I think people are they feel like
talking about money is aproblem. That's what I think. I
don't know. Morgan Do you have adifferent opinion?
Morgan Thelander (05:41):
I think it depends on the generation,
right? I The younger generation.They are much more comfortable
talking about what they'regetting paid and what their
salaries look like. And I thinkolder people, for lack of a
better word, maybe more seasonedexecutives,
Jody Thelander (05:58):
Morgan, I'll take it as the OG right people
my age
Morgan Thelander (06:03):
wouldn't do it. It just that pay
transparency hasn't been there,and the need for it has not
existed in the past. And part ofit is really, I mean, we work
with a lot of recruiters, andthe compensation is really
personal to everybody, andeverybody has different
realities and differentsituations, and we've
historically have seen more of atrade off between the cash or
(06:25):
the equity piece, and that'sreally evolved with how the
markets have too, especially forprivate companies, with
financing taking longer, runwaystaking longer. You can't
necessarily make that trade offfor cash or equity, and you
really what we are data shows,too, is that you need both.
Scott Ritzheimer (06:43):
I'm glad you brought us back there, because
that was actually my nextquestion, because it gets real
complicated. I love the way thatyou put it. You get your founder
equity once, and I think thatwhile most of us couldn't
articulate it that clearly, wefeel it that clearly, and
there's a sense of how doesequity fit in this with a first
(07:03):
time founder, right? Who's inthis stage of building an
executive team for the firsttime, they've had some success.
Maybe some of those people havebeen a big part of that success.
It feels to me like oftentimesthe equity conversation is just
kind of like, forgive theFrench, but like a wild ass
guess it's like, oh, this is anumber that makes sense. How can
(07:25):
a founder think about it morerationally? Sounds bad, but
like, in a more strategic way,
Jody Thelander (07:31):
they got to use the data. I mean, we just got
off a call with a top tier VCfirm and the guy who had
compensation for all theportfolio companies, and we were
just having this conversation,and we looked at multiple cuts
of data by different financing,by different industries, like a
job title, a CEO. And it isalmost uncanny how stable the
(07:54):
data is. Looking at the averagesand the medians were worth like,
within certain point, 00, youknow, one three of each other,
like, really close. So themarket is very stable. What you
decide to do with this is up toyou. Like, but there's really no
reason if you make a mistake ineither direction as a founder
giving equity, either you givesomebody too much, and then
(08:17):
there are problems even if yougive yourself too much, because,
you know, we spent a lot of timetalking to founders, and it
comes up that the board asksthem to give back equity when
they do their next round becausethey still have too much. So
they asked them to sort of resetthe vesting and give some equity
back, which is really notanybody's favorite thing to do.
(08:38):
And also, if you give somebodytoo little than the playing the
catch up. If that snowballstarts, you know, rolling down
the hill, it's really hard tostop that and fix it, because
there becomes too big of adivide between where someone is
and where somebody should be. Soit's equally bad on both sides.
Yeah, yeah, too.
Morgan Thelander (08:57):
Is that really we look at to get the mix of
cash and equity correct,especially on the equity side,
is how much capital A companyhas raised. You can look at it
also by revenue, if they haverevenue, but the total amount of
financing is the most reliableway to customize the
compensation data.
Jody Thelander (09:14):
The simplest, because everyone starts to make
it crazy. How about thislocation? How about that
location? How about, you know,all these other factors in your
head count. You know, valuation,so not necessary. It really is
not a complicated algorithm.
Scott Ritzheimer (09:31):
Yeah, that's so good. So I have, I have this
question that I like to ask allmy guests. I'm interested to see
what the two of you have to say,especially in the context of
compensation. But the questionis this, and Morgan, we'll start
with you. What would you say isthe biggest secret that you wish
wasn't a secret at all? What'sthat one thing you wish
(09:51):
everybody watching or listeningtoday knew?
Morgan Thelander (09:55):
I get asked a lot of what the difference with
our data is to. To otherresources, and why somebody like
why even a compensation surveymatters? And the part that I
would say back to it, that Iwish wasn't a secret, is it's
really so easy and simple to getit right, and if you take the
time to invest early on, you'llit'll pay off tenfold down the
(10:19):
road, and what seems like youhave no time for is worth
putting 30 minutes aside on yourcalendar to make sure you get it
right. Because exactly even whatJody was saying a moment ago,
everything is predicated on howright you get it in the
beginning, especially thoseequity percentages. And if you
have somebody who's reallyvaluable to the company, and you
(10:40):
want them to have skin in thegame and be aligned with the
performance of the company. Thatis the secret sauce and the
special sauce of a privatecompany, which is the equity
component.
Scott Ritzheimer (10:50):
It's so good, so good. Jodi, same question for
you, what's the biggest secretyou wish wasn't a secret at all?
What's that one thing you wisheverybody watching or listening
today knew?
Jody Thelander (11:00):
it will not work out on its own. The UK, you
know, you there is no way topretend it's like the dog who's
under the bed who can't see youbut their tail is sticking out.
You know, you're like, that isnot going to help you. This
needs to be addressed. It's soimportant because we know
entrepreneurs are reallypassionate. They start these
companies because they can'thelp themselves, and they're,
(11:20):
you know, patient care orboiling the oceans, whatever
they're going to do, and theworst thing is for someone to
find out the hard way that theydidn't plan for this. There was
a liquidity event. Now they'rehaving conflict with the board
because they're not going tohave wealth creation or it
didn't work out in their favor,and we hate to see that. So for
you entrepreneurs or foundersout there, you got to make sure
(11:43):
you take care of your got to putyour house in order.
Scott Ritzheimer (11:46):
So true. So on that note, what is the next
step? So if someone's there, alot of folks are thinking about
this this time of year, andthey've just never taken a
formal approach to it. What'sthe next step that they can
take, starting today?
Jody Thelander (12:01):
Well, I mean, you can't hate us for this,
since we run a compensation dataand consulting firm participate
in a Thelander survey, becauseit's free. It whatever job
information you fill in, let'ssay you fill in the cash and
equity for five roles. You getthat those five roles back for
no charge. So I'd love for youto do it with us, but if not us,
I don't even really know whoelse, but at least don't use,
(12:24):
you know, don't just google thisor put it in on an AI tool that
you really got to make sure thatyou have the right resource.
Scott Ritzheimer (12:31):
Yeah, so good, so good. Well. Jody Morgan,
thank you so much for being onreally was a privilege and
honor. Having you here today,and for those of you watching
and listening, you know thatyour time and attention mean the
world to us, I hope you got asmuch out of this conversation as
I know I did, and I cannot waitto see you next time. Take care.
Hello, hello and welcome. Welcome once again
(00:02):
to the Start scale and succeedpodcast. It's the only podcast
that grows with you through allseven stages of your journey as
a founder, I'm your host, ScottRitzheimer, and today I want to
talk to founders who've builttheir team one handshake deal at
a time. You know exactly who youare, and now you find yourself
staring at a spreadsheet thatmakes no sense. There's dollars
(00:23):
everywhere, there's metricseverywhere, and it's just all
nonsense. You've got someonethat you've hired in year one
who's making more than someoneelse who's been doing that job
better. In year three, you'vegot people being paid for all
kinds of things. You have peoplewith titles that we've used to
compensate for a lack ofcompensation, and it's all just
a big mess. You know, it can'tkeep up, but you don't know how
(00:45):
to move forward. And here's whatmakes it even heavier, is all
the complexity of it. It's notjust numbers, it's the emotions
and the relationships and thefear of what could go wrong if
you get it wrong. And so how dowe do it? How do we tackle this
compensation challenge? How dowe build a streamlined
compensation strategy? Well,today's guests are uniquely
(01:09):
qualified to help us navigatethese waters. Today, we have a
duo with us, both Jody andMorgan Thelander, who are a
powerful mother daughter duo,the team behind J. Thelander
Consulting recently featured inForbes, brings unmatched
expertise in executivecompensation, founder strategy
and leadership alignment atgrowth stage. Companies, they've
(01:31):
built a reputation fortranslating complex compensation
data into actionable strategiesthat help founders attract and
retain top talent whilenavigating the scaling journey.
Their perspective is especiallyvaluable because it bridges the
human and financial sides ofgrowth, how leaders get
compensated, how to shapeculture and how alignment at the
top sets the tone for long termsuccess. Well. Jody, Morgan,
(01:53):
welcome it's a rare day that weget to have two guests on at
once. I'm excited to jump inhere. My first question for the
two of you out of the gate is,you've been doing this together
for a really long time. You'veworked with 1000s of private
companies. What would you say isthe most common mistake that you
see founders make when theystart building out that like
(02:15):
real executive team?
Jody Thelander (02:18):
Well, I'll jump in because I'm the OG of the
house. So I started the company30 years ago, and Morgan's been
with the firm for almost 10which is great. And yes, she is
my daughter. I mean, I would saythe number one mistake, and I
love the way you said it, thatit's a combination of looking at
maybe a cap table and terms, andthen the emotional side behind
it, and then hiring somebody andputting them in a more senior
(02:40):
role, because it seems great atthe time, but then you end up
hiring someone else who isactually more senior, and you're
a little bit in a log jam. So Ithink the number one thing that
would that you've got to do isto really plan it is never too
early to make sure that you lookback. I mean, they're people
like us right there. There is noexcuse not to get it right, and
it's got to be a priority.
Scott Ritzheimer (03:01):
Yeah. So there's this transition that
happens, and it's not all atonce, but it builds and builds
and builds. And we move fromthis kind of one off employment
deal, right, like over ahandshake, whatever it takes to
get them in the door, to anactual compensation strategy.
Tell us, what does that shiftlook like, and why do you find
(03:24):
that so many founders resistmaking that until they're
already in trouble?
Morgan Thelander (03:28):
I don't know if it's so much that they resist
it, that they just don't know,or it's their first company, and
they're a first time founder,CEO, and they don't have the
resources, or they don't knowwhat resources exist. But I
think the biggest thing, kind ofjumping on what Jody said, is
that taking the time to put theformality in place, and having a
(03:49):
compensation structure andhaving a compensation philosophy
that starts at the top, and ittrickles down from there, and
especially from the founderperspective, you only get
founder equity one time. Somaking sure that you get that
mix of cash and equity correctfrom the beginning is really
you'll never regret that ever.
Jody Thelander (04:10):
And also, to bring you back on what Morgan's
saying is, you have a lot offounders make the mistake that
it will work itself out, or thattheir board or investors will
take care of it. And I would saythat's the the worst thing to
do, because if you really wantto be a baller CEO, and you're
innovative and you'reentrepreneurial, but you also
want to be successful, you'vegot to cover both sides of the
(04:31):
innovation as well as the realbusiness side of it, and take
the bull by the horns. It is notyou can't catch and receive the
ball like you've got to be ableto have a plan and execute.
Scott Ritzheimer (04:42):
No joke. This actually just happened last
week. I was sitting down with aclient, and he had been working
on a compensation strategy, andhe was like, just the most
disappointed I'd ever seen him.And they're having this great
year. It's literally recordsetting year he's gonna make the
most profit he's ever madebefore. Sure, and the defining
emotion he's feeling is likethis, like I'm doing this. And
(05:06):
it's interesting how it seemsthat there are a lot of things
that are getting morecomplicated. There are a lot of
things that require them tothink differently as founders,
to become CEOs. But for somereason, compensation hits a
nerve. It starts to hit some ofthose imposter syndrome
impulses. It starts to feel likehandcuffs for folks. Why is it
(05:30):
that there's so much emotion inthis topic?
Jody Thelander (05:33):
Because I think people are they feel like
talking about money is aproblem. That's what I think. I
don't know. Morgan Do you have adifferent opinion?
Morgan Thelander (05:41):
I think it depends on the generation,
right? I The younger generation.They are much more comfortable
talking about what they'regetting paid and what their
salaries look like. And I thinkolder people, for lack of a
better word, maybe more seasonedexecutives,
Jody Thelander (05:58):
Morgan, I'll take it as the OG right people
my age
Morgan Thelander (06:03):
wouldn't do it. It just that pay
transparency hasn't been there,and the need for it has not
existed in the past. And part ofit is really, I mean, we work
with a lot of recruiters, andthe compensation is really
personal to everybody, andeverybody has different
realities and differentsituations, and we've
historically have seen more of atrade off between the cash or
(06:25):
the equity piece, and that'sreally evolved with how the
markets have too, especially forprivate companies, with
financing taking longer, runwaystaking longer. You can't
necessarily make that trade offfor cash or equity, and you
really what we are data shows,too, is that you need both.
Scott Ritzheimer (06:43):
I'm glad you brought us back there, because
that was actually my nextquestion, because it gets real
complicated. I love the way thatyou put it. You get your founder
equity once, and I think thatwhile most of us couldn't
articulate it that clearly, wefeel it that clearly, and
there's a sense of how doesequity fit in this with a first
(07:03):
time founder, right? Who's inthis stage of building an
executive team for the firsttime, they've had some success.
Maybe some of those people havebeen a big part of that success.
It feels to me like oftentimesthe equity conversation is just
kind of like, forgive theFrench, but like a wild ass
guess it's like, oh, this is anumber that makes sense. How can
(07:25):
a founder think about it morerationally? Sounds bad, but
like, in a more strategic way,
Jody Thelander (07:31):
they got to use the data. I mean, we just got
off a call with a top tier VCfirm and the guy who had
compensation for all theportfolio companies, and we were
just having this conversation,and we looked at multiple cuts
of data by different financing,by different industries, like a
job title, a CEO. And it isalmost uncanny how stable the
(07:54):
data is. Looking at the averagesand the medians were worth like,
within certain point, 00, youknow, one three of each other,
like, really close. So themarket is very stable. What you
decide to do with this is up toyou. Like, but there's really no
reason if you make a mistake ineither direction as a founder
giving equity, either you givesomebody too much, and then
(08:17):
there are problems even if yougive yourself too much, because,
you know, we spent a lot of timetalking to founders, and it
comes up that the board asksthem to give back equity when
they do their next round becausethey still have too much. So
they asked them to sort of resetthe vesting and give some equity
back, which is really notanybody's favorite thing to do.
(08:38):
And also, if you give somebodytoo little than the playing the
catch up. If that snowballstarts, you know, rolling down
the hill, it's really hard tostop that and fix it, because
there becomes too big of adivide between where someone is
and where somebody should be. Soit's equally bad on both sides.
Yeah, yeah, too.
Morgan Thelander (08:57):
Is that really we look at to get the mix of
cash and equity correct,especially on the equity side,
is how much capital A companyhas raised. You can look at it
also by revenue, if they haverevenue, but the total amount of
financing is the most reliableway to customize the
compensation data.
Jody Thelander (09:14):
The simplest, because everyone starts to make
it crazy. How about thislocation? How about that
location? How about, you know,all these other factors in your
head count. You know, valuation,so not necessary. It really is
not a complicated algorithm.
Scott Ritzheimer (09:31):
Yeah, that's so good. So I have, I have this
question that I like to ask allmy guests. I'm interested to see
what the two of you have to say,especially in the context of
compensation. But the questionis this, and Morgan, we'll start
with you. What would you say isthe biggest secret that you wish
wasn't a secret at all? What'sthat one thing you wish
(09:51):
everybody watching or listeningtoday knew?
Morgan Thelander (09:55):
I get asked a lot of what the difference with
our data is to. To otherresources, and why somebody like
why even a compensation surveymatters? And the part that I
would say back to it, that Iwish wasn't a secret, is it's
really so easy and simple to getit right, and if you take the
time to invest early on, you'llit'll pay off tenfold down the
(10:19):
road, and what seems like youhave no time for is worth
putting 30 minutes aside on yourcalendar to make sure you get it
right. Because exactly even whatJody was saying a moment ago,
everything is predicated on howright you get it in the
beginning, especially thoseequity percentages. And if you
have somebody who's reallyvaluable to the company, and you
(10:40):
want them to have skin in thegame and be aligned with the
performance of the company. Thatis the secret sauce and the
special sauce of a privatecompany, which is the equity
component.
Scott Ritzheimer (10:50):
It's so good, so good. Jodi, same question for
you, what's the biggest secretyou wish wasn't a secret at all?
What's that one thing you wisheverybody watching or listening
today knew?
Jody Thelander (11:00):
it will not work out on its own. The UK, you
know, you there is no way topretend it's like the dog who's
under the bed who can't see youbut their tail is sticking out.
You know, you're like, that isnot going to help you. This
needs to be addressed. It's soimportant because we know
entrepreneurs are reallypassionate. They start these
companies because they can'thelp themselves, and they're,
(11:20):
you know, patient care orboiling the oceans, whatever
they're going to do, and theworst thing is for someone to
find out the hard way that theydidn't plan for this. There was
a liquidity event. Now they'rehaving conflict with the board
because they're not going tohave wealth creation or it
didn't work out in their favor,and we hate to see that. So for
you entrepreneurs or foundersout there, you got to make sure
(11:43):
you take care of your got to putyour house in order.
Scott Ritzheimer (11:46):
So true. So on that note, what is the next
step? So if someone's there, alot of folks are thinking about
this this time of year, andthey've just never taken a
formal approach to it. What'sthe next step that they can
take, starting today?
Jody Thelander (12:01):
Well, I mean, you can't hate us for this,
since we run a compensation dataand consulting firm participate
in a Thelander survey, becauseit's free. It whatever job
information you fill in, let'ssay you fill in the cash and
equity for five roles. You getthat those five roles back for
no charge. So I'd love for youto do it with us, but if not us,
I don't even really know whoelse, but at least don't use,
(12:24):
you know, don't just google thisor put it in on an AI tool that
you really got to make sure thatyou have the right resource.
Scott Ritzheimer (12:31):
Yeah, so good, so good. Well. Jody Morgan,
thank you so much for being onreally was a privilege and
honor. Having you here today,and for those of you watching
and listening, you know thatyour time and attention mean the
world to us, I hope you got asmuch out of this conversation as
I know I did, and I cannot waitto see you next time. Take care.
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