September 23, 2025 • 28 mins
In this amenable episode, Michael Brenner, CEO of Right Chord Leadership, shares leadership strategies via music metaphors. If you struggle with team disillusionment or leadership transition, you won't want to miss it.
You will discover:
- Why blending passions builds authentic leadership in stage 4
- How to apply CHORDS model for team harmony
- What trusting bold visions creates sustainable success
This episode is ideal for for Founders, Owners, and CEOs in stage 4 of The Founder's Evolution. Not sure which stage you're in? Find out for free in less than 10 minutes at https://www.scalearchitects.com/founders/quiz
Dr. Michael Brenner is a leadership coach, keynote speaker, and author of “Strike The Right Chord”. With a background that blends corporate leadership and professional musicianship, he helps founders, executives, and leadership teams build high-performing cultures grounded in trust, accountability, and creativity. Michael’s clients range from early-stage entrepreneurs to global enterprise leaders. Whether coaching one-on-one or speaking from the stage, his mission is simple: help leaders show up fully, lead more effectively, and create a rhythm of success that’s both strategic and sustainable.
Want to learn more about Michael Brenner's work at Right Chord Leadership? Check out his website at https://rightchordleadership.com/ and get a copy of his book Strike the Right Chord: The Emerging Leader’s Guide to Exceptional Performance on Amazon at https://www.amazon.com/Strike-Right-Chord-Exceptional-Performance-ebook/dp/B0DVDGZQTZ
Mentioned in this episode:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Scott Ritzheimer (00:00):
Hello, hello and welcome. Welcome once again
(00:03):
to the Start scale and succeedpodcast, the only podcast that
grows with you through all sevenstages of your journey as a
founder, and I'm your host,Scott Ritzheimer, and today
we're going to talk about asubtle but important truth that
I think very many founders miss,and that is that leadership and
entrepreneurship are not thesame thing. See, there's a lot
of great entrepreneurs out therewho haven't quite yet figured
(00:26):
out how to be great leaders. Soif becoming a leader has felt
hard, please know you're notalone. The journey from
entrepreneur to leader can beone of the most disillusioning
journeys we face. But it doesn'thave to be that way. I believe
leaders are built and not born,and so leadership is a skill
that any one of us can learn, ifwe choose to, and so long as we
(00:47):
have someone to help show us theway. And that's exactly why Dr
Michael Brenner is here with ustoday. Mike's a leadership
coach, keynote speaker andauthor of strike the right chord
with a background that blendscorporate leadership and
professional musicianship. Hehelps founders, executives and
leadership teams build highperforming cultures grounded in
trust, accountability andcreativity. Mike's clients range
(01:10):
from early stage entrepreneursto global enterprise leaders,
and whether it's coaching one onone or speaking from the stage,
his mission is simple, to helpleaders show up fully, lead more
effectively, and create a rhythmof success that both that's both
strategic and sustainable. Andhe's also, like we mentioned
before, the author of strike theright chord, the emerging
(01:32):
leader's guide to exceptionalperformance. We're going to walk
through this really cool modelhere today. So Michael, welcome
to the show. Scott, so excitedto have you here. A question out
of the gate is, in your opinion,your experience, why is it that
so many entrepreneurs and othernew leaders struggle to really
(01:53):
develop these leadership skills?
Michael Brenner (01:56):
Well, I think, as we talked about in our pre,
pre interview here, Scott, Ithink it's because the skills
required to be an effectiveentrepreneur are not identical
to the skills required to be aneffective leader. And as you
mentioned, you know, you knowsome great entrepreneurs. I know
some great entrepreneurs, andthat's a body of skills and
(02:16):
competencies that are associatedwith, you know, starting and
building and cultivating andnurturing a business, and that
those are very important skills,the skills of leadership, while
not wholly different, are alittle different because now
you're talking about building ateam, cultivating a team of
disparate, differentpersonalities and temperaments
(02:39):
and and communicating with yourteam members in an effective way
and honoring the differencesthat may appear on your team. So
I think about it like two sidesof the same coin. They're
they're related, but they are,they are distinct. And so we
often find entrepreneurs who arereally good at the starting the
business, growing the business,you know, getting the seed money
(03:00):
and and have that bold vision,can sometimes struggle leading a
team because they are they arenot identical skills.
Scott Ritzheimer (03:10):
Yeah. And so one of the things that I think
makes this hard forentrepreneurs to recognize is
that many times they are talkedabout as leaders, right? And
throughout their history, mayhave had leadership roles going
all the way back to sports andschool, and so there's this
(03:31):
sense of like, well, no, I amthe leader. I am the
entrepreneur. So how is thatdifferent from the leadership
that you're talking about now?
Michael Brenner (03:41):
Yeah, so you can sort of be thought of as the
leader because you're the CEOor, you know, head of your
company, and I suppose you are aleader in that respect. But the
kind of leader that I'm talkingabout is not necessarily a
position, it's it's a way ofbeing, it's a it's a mindset.
(04:06):
It's a way of showing up everyday with your team. I know
people who do not have positionsof formal authority, who I would
identify as leaders, and I knowpeople who are in positions of
formal authority who are thoughtof every day as leaders that I
don't necessarily considerleaders. In other words,
(04:28):
leadership is more than just,you know, a title, and I've
always believed that. And so Ithink one of the things that I
talk about in terms of what ittakes to be an effective leader,
in my eyes, comes down to what Icall the chords model you
mentioned in the introduction. Ialso happen to be a professional
(04:48):
musician, and a few years ago, Iwas really thinking about the
similarities between what isrequired to be an effective
performer or a successfulmusician, and what's required.
To be an effective or successfulleader, and I realized there's a
lot of lot of interdependencies,or a lot of commonalities among
those those two worlds. And so Icame up with the chords model
(05:11):
based on my own experience andthe research that I've done over
the years, which I think is agood place for entrepreneurs who
also want to be effectiveleaders to start, and I can
share what the courts model is,if, if.
Scott Ritzheimer (05:25):
Yeah, yeah. Let's dive into that. And I
really appreciate it. And youwalk through this in great
detail in the book, I'd highlyrecommend it for anyone who's
listening that this strikes achord with them. Pun intended,
but yeah, let's start at thebeginning of this. So it's a
it's an acrostic, just goingback to the English class here,
and not sure if I got thatright. But let's start. So C,
(05:46):
what's the C stand for? And whyis it important for a leader?
Michael Brenner (05:49):
Yeah, so each letter in the word chords, think
of it as a note, right? Soyou're going to hear a lot of
musical language baked into thebranding and the concepts and
the principles of the work thatI do, Scott, but so the six
notes of the chords model, ifyou will, are C for
communication, H for harmony, Ofor ownership. So that's not
(06:09):
owning the company. That is thesense of accountability, owning
the outcomes of your behaviorsand your decisions, right? That
kind of ownership. R is forrespect, D for direction and S
for support. And in myexperience, leaders or teams or
organizations that are playingall six notes are typically
(06:31):
experiencing a high level ofsuccess. Yeah, those that are
playing maybe say five of thesix notes, you know, not awful,
but maybe an opportunity tostrengthen one of the notes. In
my experience, when you startplaying four of the six notes or
fewer, you start to experiencesome dysfunction in the team, in
(06:52):
the organization, that, if leftto, if that continues, you'll
almost certainly start to, youknow, experience some, some,
some, some negative results fromthat. You're going to want to
get your hands around thatsooner rather than later. Yeah,
Scott Ritzheimer (07:05):
Yeah. Do Before we dive into each one,
just briefly to introduce themodel for folks. Is there? Do
they happen in a certain order?Are some harder than others?
What have you found in theactual implementation of the
model,
Michael Brenner (07:21):
Yeah. So they don't necessarily happen in
order. They're happeningsimultaneously, just like the
notes of the chord. Hence, thechords model, right? So a chord
is a series of notes played atthe same time. So one of the
things that makes the six notes,or the six competencies of the
chords model tricky, is that asa leader, as a entrepreneur,
leader. In this context, you'replaying all six at the same
(07:45):
time. Ideally, you'recommunicating at the same time
you're trying to build harmonyamong a team. At the same time
you're trying to cultivate asense of ownership among your
team members. At the same timeyou're trying to show, exhibit
and display respect with peoplethat you don't necessarily agree
with. At the same time you'retrying to forge a bold vision,
that's the direction piece, atthe same time that you're trying
(08:06):
to provide constructive feedbackand coaching for people. So
you're playing all six of thesenotes, and that can be, you
know, that can be challenging asfar as the most challenging note
that differs with every leaderand with every organization. And
I've often asked that of myclients, I say, Hey, I'm just
curious which of the six notesin the chords model is the
(08:26):
trickiest one. And often it'sthe communication piece, which I
find ironic, given that we allhave these incredible devices
that are supposed to facilitatecommunication in 2025 but often
that seems to be, continue to besticking point for a lot of us.
Sometimes it's ownership. It'svery easy to point fingers and
place blame when things goastray. How do you cultivate a
(08:49):
culture of ownership? So theshort answer is, it really
depends on the on the culturethat we're talking.
Scott Ritzheimer (08:54):
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting to me that you
you highlighted communicationthere, because as I was reading
through the book, there was thatsense of like, we know this, but
we don't do it. And so how canwe bridge that gap? What does
good communication look like fora leader, and how do we bridge
(09:15):
the gap from where we are towhere we need to be?
Michael Brenner (09:18):
Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I go
back to the to the fundamentals,you know, what we would call the
blocking and tackling, if youwill, of good communication. Not
to mix metaphors here, but yeah,I do an exercise in my workshops
on communication where I play apiece of music and I ask the
(09:39):
participants if they were tocome up with a title for that
piece of music, what would itbe? And it's a nice piece of,
sort of neoclassical. There's nowords to it's just a just a
piano playing. It's a nice pieceof music. And I get all kinds of
titles, like walking throughsnow in winter, and, you know,
Ray. Bow rainbows. And you know,you can imagine all the titles.
(10:03):
And I go, those are very, verycreative titles, but talk to me
about what was required to comeup with that title, what what
level of listening was required.And the answers are, well, I had
a I had to listen very intently,right? I had to sort of block
out any distractions, anychatter in my mind, and really
(10:24):
focus on the emotions and whatthe music was expressing in
order for me to come up with atitle. And I'm like, Yeah, well,
how often do we reach that levelof acute listening during the
course of the day? And obviouslythe answer is to that is hardly
ever. So I go, let's Okay. Solet's practice experiencing that
(10:45):
level of listening. Now, notevery conversation we have
during the course of the daymight require that level of
listening, but that's that'ssort of a muscle that can
atrophy if we don't use it. Solet's just practice, in five
minutes, having a conversationin which we're focused. We're
really paying attention to theother person. We're not forming
a response while they'retalking. Maybe we're asking some
(11:08):
good questions to elicit moreinformation. And it's such a
simple exercise, but it'sreally, it's really profoundly
moving, I guess, for lack of abetter word, because I go, how
did that feel to be listened toby someone, you know, that that
intently, and they go like, wow,that was so cool, like they were
(11:30):
focused on me and asking goodquestions and really paying
attention. So, you know, toanswer your question, we could
try to reach that level offocused listening more often
every moment of every day. Butat least if someone is sharing
something with us that'sobviously important to them, try
(11:51):
to block out the distractionstied up. Try to block out when
their lips stop moving. Here'swhat I'm going to jump in and
say this just just listen, youknow, and and absorb and process
and empathize, you know, try toput yourself in the shoes of the
person that's talking to you,yeah? And then when you feel
like you have the full pictureof what's being shared then and
(12:13):
only then, say, Well, I havesome thoughts. Can I share them
with you? Yeah, simple thing todo. But we, hardly ever do that.
You know, we're always tryingto, you know, running off to our
next meeting or running off toour next obligation, and just,
you know, just showering theother person with with our
(12:34):
opinion or our perspective orour point of view, and rarely
stepping back and adopting apose of openness and receptivity
to what they're saying. And Ithink if we did that more often,
it would make a huge differencein the workplace. So one thing
we can do.
Scott Ritzheimer (12:49):
So true, the next one here is harmony, which
I thought beyond the fact thatyou know, the obvious musical
metaphors, very, veryinteresting word. And so my
question for you is, how doesharmony from a leadership
concept differ from otherconcepts like consensus or buy
(13:10):
in? What does harmony look likefor you?
Michael Brenner (13:14):
So the way that I sort of frame up the notion of
harmony, Scott in the book andin the chords model, and again,
I use a musical analogy, which Ithink might be helpful here to
your listeners. If you thinkabout different types of
instruments you have, like anelectric guitar. And I actually
do a piece of this in myprogram, so I'll play an
(13:37):
electric guitar, you know, justlike shredding electric guitar.
And that's represents thepersonality of someone who is a
little, you know, dominant, alittle, you know, very
confident, maybe a little rougharound the edges. We know people
like that. They're not badpeople. They just have a very
big personality, right? Sort ofrepresented by this electric
(13:58):
guitar. And then we have thenext instrument. You might have
people on your team who's atrumpet and I play a piece of
trumpet music. It's very joyfuland very buoyant and very it's
like, and I'm like, do you knowpeople like that on your team
who are just like, hey, come inon a Monday morning, hey, let me
tell you all about my weekend.You're like, whoa. Slow down,
(14:18):
man, right? I haven't even hadmy coffee yet. We know people
like that. And then there's,like, the saxophone, and I play
a piece of, like, very warm and,like, just lush saxophone, jazz
saxophone, like, you know,people like that, right? They're
just the people you go to whenyou just need a shoulder to cry
on, right? They're just goodlisteners, and they're empathic
(14:39):
and and, you know, thesaxophones in your life. And
then the fourth example is likea cello and I play a piece of a
Cello Sonata. I think it's aBach Cello Sonata, and it's very
sort of rhythmically consistent,and every note is in the right
place. I'm like, you know,people like that, you know,
they're just very meticulous.And logical and rational, right?
(15:02):
So again, I'm using the musicalanalogy to shine a light on the
different personalities thatexist in the workplace. And then
we talk about, all right, how doyou get the electric guitars
playing nicely with thetrumpets, playing nicely with
the saxophones, playing nicelywith the cellos? And we have a
nice conversation about thepreferences and the tendencies
(15:24):
of each of those four styles andhow we can best work with styles
that are a little different fromus, or maybe vastly different
from us. And you know, there's alot there to talk about, more
than we have time for on thispodcast, but yeah, there's
plenty of literature and plentyof research on on how to work
(15:47):
best with people who may have,you know, a different
perspective than us, ordifferent work style than us.
And really, what it comes downto is just honoring the
strengths and the gifts of eachstyle and being showing grace
and patience with, you know, thethe characteristics of a style
(16:09):
that might not align with ours,and instead of getting
frustrated with people,recognize that they're just
different. So let's recognizethat difference, and let's talk
about how we can work together?
Scott Ritzheimer (16:21):
Yeah, I love that, because there's, there's a
couple of mistakes that folksmake. Founders in particular,
they look for other people canmatch their melody right as
they're looking for other peoplewho are like them that are
singing the same song in thesame way. And you lose so much
color in that. And then theother side of this is just
(16:43):
because it's different doesn'tmean it's good, you know, and
you can have different that'swrong and that's not in harmony
and not in sync with the team.And so, excellent metaphor. I
really I fell in love with it asyou shared it, and then again,
as you shared it here on theepisode. So for the sake of
time, we like to keep this shortfor our folks, I'm gonna give
you the author's license to pickwhich one of the remaining four,
(17:07):
and then again, we'll make surefolks know how they can get a
copy of the book and go througheach of these in detail. But of
the remainder, which do youthink is the one that most
entrepreneurs miss?
Michael Brenner (17:20):
Yeah, that's a great question. I think that
probably respect can be anissue, especially with an
entrepreneur with, let's faceit, you know, a big ego. Maybe,
you know, not an unwarrantedone, because entrepreneurs tend
to be very smart and very savvy.Sometimes they have big ego. So,
(17:40):
you know, sometimes that can,that can be tricky direction.
Maybe not so much an issue withentrepreneurs, because they
typically have a bold vision forwhat they want to accomplish. I
think maybe, I think maybeownership, and not so much that
they don't exhibit ownershipthemselves, but it's kind of
(18:01):
cultivating ownership among ateam. And for me, just for the
sake of time, Scott, I thinkthat really comes down to this
notion of psychological safety.One of the things that I think
entrepreneurs can do tocultivate a sense of ownership
in a in a team is to create asense of psychological safety,
which is a space where peoplefeel comfortable speaking up,
(18:26):
speaking out, telling the truth,being themselves, maybe even
pushing back a little bit on theentrepreneur, not in a
disrespectful way, but offeringa different point of view or
different perspective, I thinkin a culture of psychological
safety, people feel free andconfident to to do the things
(18:50):
that I think are reallyimportant to a burgeoning
business, which is like pointout things that you know maybe
going off the rails, or thingswe need to be careful about
when, When there isn't thatsense of psychological safety,
people tend to just right. Justbuckle down. Don't see no evil,
speak no evil. See no evil. Andbecause there's a sense of fear
(19:12):
in terms of of expressing thosethings. And I think that can be
very deleterious to to anentrepreneur. And we want to
make sure that we create a spacewhere, hey, even if it's bad
news, I want to hear it. I'm notgoing to hold it against you.
I'm not going to humiliate you.That's really important, but
(19:32):
we're going to talk through it.And I think that's the one
takeaway from ownership that Iwould share today.
Scott Ritzheimer (19:40):
It's so good. It's so good. I love the
language you use right at thetop of that answer, which was
cultivating an environment ofownership. I think that's
because a lot of us will hearthat and think it's licensed to
demand ownership. But if youlook at if you look at it, it's
it has. Be discretionary, right?Like it's impossible to demand
(20:03):
ownership. You can only receiveit and, and so, yeah, I love
that point on cultivating theenvironment.
Michael Brenner (20:09):
Yeah, I, you know, I there are, there are
folks out there, maybe, whodemand ownership. And, you know,
we could speak to iconic leadersover the years who have had sort
of that, that temperament, andthere are people out there that
say, yeah, they were veryeffective in doing that. So
okay, that may be the case, butthat's that's not what that's
(20:33):
not how I define a great leader,you know? And that's why I very
purposely use the word cultivateyour like, like you're
nourishing, just like you wouldin a jazz band, right? That
you're not, you're not demandingthings of your fellow bandmates.
You're working together inharmony and collaboration, yeah,
(20:53):
to create something that youthink is going to be meaningful
to your audience. So that's, youknow, as a musician, that's,
that's kind of the paradigmwhere I come from, and I it's a
hallmark of the very bestleaders that I've ever worked
with.
Scott Ritzheimer (21:10):
So Mike, there's one question that I like
to ask all my guests. I'm veryinterested to hear what you have
to say, and then we'll make surefolks know how they can get in
touch with you and and go fromthere. But the question is this,
what would you say is thebiggest secret that you wish
wasn't a secret at all. What'sthat one thing you wish
everybody watching and listeningtoday knew?
Michael Brenner (21:30):
You know, I would say that, you know, maybe
it's a little hackneyed, but itwas really true in my case, and
that's is, you know, follow yourinner voice. And why I say that
was really palpable for me isbecause about 10 years ago, I
had a conversation with acolleague of mine, a successful
(21:53):
speaker coach, and I said tohim, I'm really struggling to
carve out a unique identity formy business. And he said, Well,
you know, what do you thinkmakes you different from all the
other consultants and coachesrunning around out there? And I
said, Well, I have this lifelongpassion for music, and, and,
(22:14):
and, you know, I played musicsince I was a teenager. I listen
to a lot of music. I talk aboutmusic with my friends. It's more
than just, you know, just ahobby. It's really a part of me.
And he stopped me, and he said,If you could see your face right
now, you would see how joyfulyou are talking about music. So
(22:36):
I think you answered your ownquestion in terms of blending
your expertise in leadership andteam building, and you have all
the academic credentials and allthat, and blend that with your
love and passion and backgroundand music and create some create
a brand out of that. And I said,Well, that's interesting, but
(22:56):
what if people find like thatkind of frivolous or or or
superficial, you know, I wasfull of doubt. And he said,
Well, there's always going to bepeople out there that you know,
don't align with whatever it isyou're doing, but if you come to
the marketplace with a sense ofauthenticity and passion and joy
(23:16):
for whatever it is, you willfind people that connect. So I
took that leap of faith. And I'mlike, All right, sounds weird,
but I'm gonna, I'm gonna totallyrebrand and come up with right
chord leadership and the chordsmodel and notes and harmony and
and jazz. And I was like, I'mgoing all in. I'm not gonna just
(23:39):
half, you know, half, baked, andit's been good. I mean, it has
definitely allowed me to createan identity in a crowded market.
People say, Oh, you're thatsaxophone guy, you're that,
you're the you're the music guy,right? And and it allowed me to
write this book. So I would say,even if that little voice in
(24:01):
your head says it'll never work,people are going to find it
silly. You know, what are you?Who are you kidding? Follow that
little voice and don't bedissuaded. If you have a bold
vision and you just feel in yourgut that it's the right
direction for you, pursue it,pursue it, and don't give up
(24:23):
and, and I think that is thebiggest quote secret that I wish
more entrepreneurs that I wouldshare with entrepreneurs that I
would share with your audiencetoday.
Scott Ritzheimer (24:31):
Yeah, remarkable, remarkable. Mike,
where can folks get a copy ofthe book? Where can they find
more out about the work that youdo in the workshops you host?
Michael Brenner (24:41):
Yeah, I opportunity. Scott So
rightchordleadership.com. That'schord with an H, like musical
chord, right chord, C, H, O, R,D, leadership.com. The book is
available on Amazon. It's calledstrike the right chord. The
emerging leader's guide toexceptional performance. My
Email ismichael@rightcordleadership.com
(25:04):
I would be delighted to connectwith any of your listeners who
are interested in what I do inthe any musicians out there that
want to talk music and how itrelates to entrepreneurship and
leadership, happy to do that. Soyeah, I encourage anyone who's
interested to reach out, behappy to chat with you.
Scott Ritzheimer (25:24):
Yeah. Dr. Michael Brenner, thank you so
much for being on the show. Justa privilege and honor having you
here today, and for those of youwatching and listening, you know
your time and attention mean theworld to us. I hope you got as
much out of this conversation asI know I did, and I cannot wait
to see you next time. Take care.
Michael Brenner (25:40):
Appreciate it. Thank you.
Hello, hello and welcome. Welcome once again
(00:03):
to the Start scale and succeedpodcast, the only podcast that
grows with you through all sevenstages of your journey as a
founder, and I'm your host,Scott Ritzheimer, and today
we're going to talk about asubtle but important truth that
I think very many founders miss,and that is that leadership and
entrepreneurship are not thesame thing. See, there's a lot
of great entrepreneurs out therewho haven't quite yet figured
(00:26):
out how to be great leaders. Soif becoming a leader has felt
hard, please know you're notalone. The journey from
entrepreneur to leader can beone of the most disillusioning
journeys we face. But it doesn'thave to be that way. I believe
leaders are built and not born,and so leadership is a skill
that any one of us can learn, ifwe choose to, and so long as we
(00:47):
have someone to help show us theway. And that's exactly why Dr
Michael Brenner is here with ustoday. Mike's a leadership
coach, keynote speaker andauthor of strike the right chord
with a background that blendscorporate leadership and
professional musicianship. Hehelps founders, executives and
leadership teams build highperforming cultures grounded in
trust, accountability andcreativity. Mike's clients range
(01:10):
from early stage entrepreneursto global enterprise leaders,
and whether it's coaching one onone or speaking from the stage,
his mission is simple, to helpleaders show up fully, lead more
effectively, and create a rhythmof success that both that's both
strategic and sustainable. Andhe's also, like we mentioned
before, the author of strike theright chord, the emerging
(01:32):
leader's guide to exceptionalperformance. We're going to walk
through this really cool modelhere today. So Michael, welcome
to the show. Scott, so excitedto have you here. A question out
of the gate is, in your opinion,your experience, why is it that
so many entrepreneurs and othernew leaders struggle to really
(01:53):
develop these leadership skills?
Michael Brenner (01:56):
Well, I think, as we talked about in our pre,
pre interview here, Scott, Ithink it's because the skills
required to be an effectiveentrepreneur are not identical
to the skills required to be aneffective leader. And as you
mentioned, you know, you knowsome great entrepreneurs. I know
some great entrepreneurs, andthat's a body of skills and
(02:16):
competencies that are associatedwith, you know, starting and
building and cultivating andnurturing a business, and that
those are very important skills,the skills of leadership, while
not wholly different, are alittle different because now
you're talking about building ateam, cultivating a team of
disparate, differentpersonalities and temperaments
(02:39):
and and communicating with yourteam members in an effective way
and honoring the differencesthat may appear on your team. So
I think about it like two sidesof the same coin. They're
they're related, but they are,they are distinct. And so we
often find entrepreneurs who arereally good at the starting the
business, growing the business,you know, getting the seed money
(03:00):
and and have that bold vision,can sometimes struggle leading a
team because they are they arenot identical skills.
Scott Ritzheimer (03:10):
Yeah. And so one of the things that I think
makes this hard forentrepreneurs to recognize is
that many times they are talkedabout as leaders, right? And
throughout their history, mayhave had leadership roles going
all the way back to sports andschool, and so there's this
(03:31):
sense of like, well, no, I amthe leader. I am the
entrepreneur. So how is thatdifferent from the leadership
that you're talking about now?
Michael Brenner (03:41):
Yeah, so you can sort of be thought of as the
leader because you're the CEOor, you know, head of your
company, and I suppose you are aleader in that respect. But the
kind of leader that I'm talkingabout is not necessarily a
position, it's it's a way ofbeing, it's a it's a mindset.
(04:06):
It's a way of showing up everyday with your team. I know
people who do not have positionsof formal authority, who I would
identify as leaders, and I knowpeople who are in positions of
formal authority who are thoughtof every day as leaders that I
don't necessarily considerleaders. In other words,
(04:28):
leadership is more than just,you know, a title, and I've
always believed that. And so Ithink one of the things that I
talk about in terms of what ittakes to be an effective leader,
in my eyes, comes down to what Icall the chords model you
mentioned in the introduction. Ialso happen to be a professional
(04:48):
musician, and a few years ago, Iwas really thinking about the
similarities between what isrequired to be an effective
performer or a successfulmusician, and what's required.
To be an effective or successfulleader, and I realized there's a
lot of lot of interdependencies,or a lot of commonalities among
those those two worlds. And so Icame up with the chords model
(05:11):
based on my own experience andthe research that I've done over
the years, which I think is agood place for entrepreneurs who
also want to be effectiveleaders to start, and I can
share what the courts model is,if, if.
Scott Ritzheimer (05:25):
Yeah, yeah. Let's dive into that. And I
really appreciate it. And youwalk through this in great
detail in the book, I'd highlyrecommend it for anyone who's
listening that this strikes achord with them. Pun intended,
but yeah, let's start at thebeginning of this. So it's a
it's an acrostic, just goingback to the English class here,
and not sure if I got thatright. But let's start. So C,
(05:46):
what's the C stand for? And whyis it important for a leader?
Michael Brenner (05:49):
Yeah, so each letter in the word chords, think
of it as a note, right? Soyou're going to hear a lot of
musical language baked into thebranding and the concepts and
the principles of the work thatI do, Scott, but so the six
notes of the chords model, ifyou will, are C for
communication, H for harmony, Ofor ownership. So that's not
(06:09):
owning the company. That is thesense of accountability, owning
the outcomes of your behaviorsand your decisions, right? That
kind of ownership. R is forrespect, D for direction and S
for support. And in myexperience, leaders or teams or
organizations that are playingall six notes are typically
(06:31):
experiencing a high level ofsuccess. Yeah, those that are
playing maybe say five of thesix notes, you know, not awful,
but maybe an opportunity tostrengthen one of the notes. In
my experience, when you startplaying four of the six notes or
fewer, you start to experiencesome dysfunction in the team, in
(06:52):
the organization, that, if leftto, if that continues, you'll
almost certainly start to, youknow, experience some, some,
some, some negative results fromthat. You're going to want to
get your hands around thatsooner rather than later. Yeah,
Scott Ritzheimer (07:05):
Yeah. Do Before we dive into each one,
just briefly to introduce themodel for folks. Is there? Do
they happen in a certain order?Are some harder than others?
What have you found in theactual implementation of the
model,
Michael Brenner (07:21):
Yeah. So they don't necessarily happen in
order. They're happeningsimultaneously, just like the
notes of the chord. Hence, thechords model, right? So a chord
is a series of notes played atthe same time. So one of the
things that makes the six notes,or the six competencies of the
chords model tricky, is that asa leader, as a entrepreneur,
leader. In this context, you'replaying all six at the same
(07:45):
time. Ideally, you'recommunicating at the same time
you're trying to build harmonyamong a team. At the same time
you're trying to cultivate asense of ownership among your
team members. At the same timeyou're trying to show, exhibit
and display respect with peoplethat you don't necessarily agree
with. At the same time you'retrying to forge a bold vision,
that's the direction piece, atthe same time that you're trying
(08:06):
to provide constructive feedbackand coaching for people. So
you're playing all six of thesenotes, and that can be, you
know, that can be challenging asfar as the most challenging note
that differs with every leaderand with every organization. And
I've often asked that of myclients, I say, Hey, I'm just
curious which of the six notesin the chords model is the
(08:26):
trickiest one. And often it'sthe communication piece, which I
find ironic, given that we allhave these incredible devices
that are supposed to facilitatecommunication in 2025 but often
that seems to be, continue to besticking point for a lot of us.
Sometimes it's ownership. It'svery easy to point fingers and
place blame when things goastray. How do you cultivate a
(08:49):
culture of ownership? So theshort answer is, it really
depends on the on the culturethat we're talking.
Scott Ritzheimer (08:54):
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting to me that you
you highlighted communicationthere, because as I was reading
through the book, there was thatsense of like, we know this, but
we don't do it. And so how canwe bridge that gap? What does
good communication look like fora leader, and how do we bridge
(09:15):
the gap from where we are towhere we need to be?
Michael Brenner (09:18):
Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I go
back to the to the fundamentals,you know, what we would call the
blocking and tackling, if youwill, of good communication. Not
to mix metaphors here, but yeah,I do an exercise in my workshops
on communication where I play apiece of music and I ask the
(09:39):
participants if they were tocome up with a title for that
piece of music, what would itbe? And it's a nice piece of,
sort of neoclassical. There's nowords to it's just a just a
piano playing. It's a nice pieceof music. And I get all kinds of
titles, like walking throughsnow in winter, and, you know,
Ray. Bow rainbows. And you know,you can imagine all the titles.
(10:03):
And I go, those are very, verycreative titles, but talk to me
about what was required to comeup with that title, what what
level of listening was required.And the answers are, well, I had
a I had to listen very intently,right? I had to sort of block
out any distractions, anychatter in my mind, and really
(10:24):
focus on the emotions and whatthe music was expressing in
order for me to come up with atitle. And I'm like, Yeah, well,
how often do we reach that levelof acute listening during the
course of the day? And obviouslythe answer is to that is hardly
ever. So I go, let's Okay. Solet's practice experiencing that
(10:45):
level of listening. Now, notevery conversation we have
during the course of the daymight require that level of
listening, but that's that'ssort of a muscle that can
atrophy if we don't use it. Solet's just practice, in five
minutes, having a conversationin which we're focused. We're
really paying attention to theother person. We're not forming
a response while they'retalking. Maybe we're asking some
(11:08):
good questions to elicit moreinformation. And it's such a
simple exercise, but it'sreally, it's really profoundly
moving, I guess, for lack of abetter word, because I go, how
did that feel to be listened toby someone, you know, that that
intently, and they go like, wow,that was so cool, like they were
(11:30):
focused on me and asking goodquestions and really paying
attention. So, you know, toanswer your question, we could
try to reach that level offocused listening more often
every moment of every day. Butat least if someone is sharing
something with us that'sobviously important to them, try
(11:51):
to block out the distractionstied up. Try to block out when
their lips stop moving. Here'swhat I'm going to jump in and
say this just just listen, youknow, and and absorb and process
and empathize, you know, try toput yourself in the shoes of the
person that's talking to you,yeah? And then when you feel
like you have the full pictureof what's being shared then and
(12:13):
only then, say, Well, I havesome thoughts. Can I share them
with you? Yeah, simple thing todo. But we, hardly ever do that.
You know, we're always tryingto, you know, running off to our
next meeting or running off toour next obligation, and just,
you know, just showering theother person with with our
(12:34):
opinion or our perspective orour point of view, and rarely
stepping back and adopting apose of openness and receptivity
to what they're saying. And Ithink if we did that more often,
it would make a huge differencein the workplace. So one thing
we can do.
Scott Ritzheimer (12:49):
So true, the next one here is harmony, which
I thought beyond the fact thatyou know, the obvious musical
metaphors, very, veryinteresting word. And so my
question for you is, how doesharmony from a leadership
concept differ from otherconcepts like consensus or buy
(13:10):
in? What does harmony look likefor you?
Michael Brenner (13:14):
So the way that I sort of frame up the notion of
harmony, Scott in the book andin the chords model, and again,
I use a musical analogy, which Ithink might be helpful here to
your listeners. If you thinkabout different types of
instruments you have, like anelectric guitar. And I actually
do a piece of this in myprogram, so I'll play an
(13:37):
electric guitar, you know, justlike shredding electric guitar.
And that's represents thepersonality of someone who is a
little, you know, dominant, alittle, you know, very
confident, maybe a little rougharound the edges. We know people
like that. They're not badpeople. They just have a very
big personality, right? Sort ofrepresented by this electric
(13:58):
guitar. And then we have thenext instrument. You might have
people on your team who's atrumpet and I play a piece of
trumpet music. It's very joyfuland very buoyant and very it's
like, and I'm like, do you knowpeople like that on your team
who are just like, hey, come inon a Monday morning, hey, let me
tell you all about my weekend.You're like, whoa. Slow down,
(14:18):
man, right? I haven't even hadmy coffee yet. We know people
like that. And then there's,like, the saxophone, and I play
a piece of, like, very warm and,like, just lush saxophone, jazz
saxophone, like, you know,people like that, right? They're
just the people you go to whenyou just need a shoulder to cry
on, right? They're just goodlisteners, and they're empathic
(14:39):
and and, you know, thesaxophones in your life. And
then the fourth example is likea cello and I play a piece of a
Cello Sonata. I think it's aBach Cello Sonata, and it's very
sort of rhythmically consistent,and every note is in the right
place. I'm like, you know,people like that, you know,
they're just very meticulous.And logical and rational, right?
(15:02):
So again, I'm using the musicalanalogy to shine a light on the
different personalities thatexist in the workplace. And then
we talk about, all right, how doyou get the electric guitars
playing nicely with thetrumpets, playing nicely with
the saxophones, playing nicelywith the cellos? And we have a
nice conversation about thepreferences and the tendencies
(15:24):
of each of those four styles andhow we can best work with styles
that are a little different fromus, or maybe vastly different
from us. And you know, there's alot there to talk about, more
than we have time for on thispodcast, but yeah, there's
plenty of literature and plentyof research on on how to work
(15:47):
best with people who may have,you know, a different
perspective than us, ordifferent work style than us.
And really, what it comes downto is just honoring the
strengths and the gifts of eachstyle and being showing grace
and patience with, you know, thethe characteristics of a style
(16:09):
that might not align with ours,and instead of getting
frustrated with people,recognize that they're just
different. So let's recognizethat difference, and let's talk
about how we can work together?
Scott Ritzheimer (16:21):
Yeah, I love that, because there's, there's a
couple of mistakes that folksmake. Founders in particular,
they look for other people canmatch their melody right as
they're looking for other peoplewho are like them that are
singing the same song in thesame way. And you lose so much
color in that. And then theother side of this is just
(16:43):
because it's different doesn'tmean it's good, you know, and
you can have different that'swrong and that's not in harmony
and not in sync with the team.And so, excellent metaphor. I
really I fell in love with it asyou shared it, and then again,
as you shared it here on theepisode. So for the sake of
time, we like to keep this shortfor our folks, I'm gonna give
you the author's license to pickwhich one of the remaining four,
(17:07):
and then again, we'll make surefolks know how they can get a
copy of the book and go througheach of these in detail. But of
the remainder, which do youthink is the one that most
entrepreneurs miss?
Michael Brenner (17:20):
Yeah, that's a great question. I think that
probably respect can be anissue, especially with an
entrepreneur with, let's faceit, you know, a big ego. Maybe,
you know, not an unwarrantedone, because entrepreneurs tend
to be very smart and very savvy.Sometimes they have big ego. So,
(17:40):
you know, sometimes that can,that can be tricky direction.
Maybe not so much an issue withentrepreneurs, because they
typically have a bold vision forwhat they want to accomplish. I
think maybe, I think maybeownership, and not so much that
they don't exhibit ownershipthemselves, but it's kind of
(18:01):
cultivating ownership among ateam. And for me, just for the
sake of time, Scott, I thinkthat really comes down to this
notion of psychological safety.One of the things that I think
entrepreneurs can do tocultivate a sense of ownership
in a in a team is to create asense of psychological safety,
which is a space where peoplefeel comfortable speaking up,
(18:26):
speaking out, telling the truth,being themselves, maybe even
pushing back a little bit on theentrepreneur, not in a
disrespectful way, but offeringa different point of view or
different perspective, I thinkin a culture of psychological
safety, people feel free andconfident to to do the things
(18:50):
that I think are reallyimportant to a burgeoning
business, which is like pointout things that you know maybe
going off the rails, or thingswe need to be careful about
when, When there isn't thatsense of psychological safety,
people tend to just right. Justbuckle down. Don't see no evil,
speak no evil. See no evil. Andbecause there's a sense of fear
(19:12):
in terms of of expressing thosethings. And I think that can be
very deleterious to to anentrepreneur. And we want to
make sure that we create a spacewhere, hey, even if it's bad
news, I want to hear it. I'm notgoing to hold it against you.
I'm not going to humiliate you.That's really important, but
(19:32):
we're going to talk through it.And I think that's the one
takeaway from ownership that Iwould share today.
Scott Ritzheimer (19:40):
It's so good. It's so good. I love the
language you use right at thetop of that answer, which was
cultivating an environment ofownership. I think that's
because a lot of us will hearthat and think it's licensed to
demand ownership. But if youlook at if you look at it, it's
it has. Be discretionary, right?Like it's impossible to demand
(20:03):
ownership. You can only receiveit and, and so, yeah, I love
that point on cultivating theenvironment.
Michael Brenner (20:09):
Yeah, I, you know, I there are, there are
folks out there, maybe, whodemand ownership. And, you know,
we could speak to iconic leadersover the years who have had sort
of that, that temperament, andthere are people out there that
say, yeah, they were veryeffective in doing that. So
okay, that may be the case, butthat's that's not what that's
(20:33):
not how I define a great leader,you know? And that's why I very
purposely use the word cultivateyour like, like you're
nourishing, just like you wouldin a jazz band, right? That
you're not, you're not demandingthings of your fellow bandmates.
You're working together inharmony and collaboration, yeah,
(20:53):
to create something that youthink is going to be meaningful
to your audience. So that's, youknow, as a musician, that's,
that's kind of the paradigmwhere I come from, and I it's a
hallmark of the very bestleaders that I've ever worked
with.
Scott Ritzheimer (21:10):
So Mike, there's one question that I like
to ask all my guests. I'm veryinterested to hear what you have
to say, and then we'll make surefolks know how they can get in
touch with you and and go fromthere. But the question is this,
what would you say is thebiggest secret that you wish
wasn't a secret at all. What'sthat one thing you wish
everybody watching and listeningtoday knew?
Michael Brenner (21:30):
You know, I would say that, you know, maybe
it's a little hackneyed, but itwas really true in my case, and
that's is, you know, follow yourinner voice. And why I say that
was really palpable for me isbecause about 10 years ago, I
had a conversation with acolleague of mine, a successful
(21:53):
speaker coach, and I said tohim, I'm really struggling to
carve out a unique identity formy business. And he said, Well,
you know, what do you thinkmakes you different from all the
other consultants and coachesrunning around out there? And I
said, Well, I have this lifelongpassion for music, and, and,
(22:14):
and, you know, I played musicsince I was a teenager. I listen
to a lot of music. I talk aboutmusic with my friends. It's more
than just, you know, just ahobby. It's really a part of me.
And he stopped me, and he said,If you could see your face right
now, you would see how joyfulyou are talking about music. So
(22:36):
I think you answered your ownquestion in terms of blending
your expertise in leadership andteam building, and you have all
the academic credentials and allthat, and blend that with your
love and passion and backgroundand music and create some create
a brand out of that. And I said,Well, that's interesting, but
(22:56):
what if people find like thatkind of frivolous or or or
superficial, you know, I wasfull of doubt. And he said,
Well, there's always going to bepeople out there that you know,
don't align with whatever it isyou're doing, but if you come to
the marketplace with a sense ofauthenticity and passion and joy
(23:16):
for whatever it is, you willfind people that connect. So I
took that leap of faith. And I'mlike, All right, sounds weird,
but I'm gonna, I'm gonna totallyrebrand and come up with right
chord leadership and the chordsmodel and notes and harmony and
and jazz. And I was like, I'mgoing all in. I'm not gonna just
(23:39):
half, you know, half, baked, andit's been good. I mean, it has
definitely allowed me to createan identity in a crowded market.
People say, Oh, you're thatsaxophone guy, you're that,
you're the you're the music guy,right? And and it allowed me to
write this book. So I would say,even if that little voice in
(24:01):
your head says it'll never work,people are going to find it
silly. You know, what are you?Who are you kidding? Follow that
little voice and don't bedissuaded. If you have a bold
vision and you just feel in yourgut that it's the right
direction for you, pursue it,pursue it, and don't give up
(24:23):
and, and I think that is thebiggest quote secret that I wish
more entrepreneurs that I wouldshare with entrepreneurs that I
would share with your audiencetoday.
Scott Ritzheimer (24:31):
Yeah, remarkable, remarkable. Mike,
where can folks get a copy ofthe book? Where can they find
more out about the work that youdo in the workshops you host?
Michael Brenner (24:41):
Yeah, I opportunity. Scott So
rightchordleadership.com. That'schord with an H, like musical
chord, right chord, C, H, O, R,D, leadership.com. The book is
available on Amazon. It's calledstrike the right chord. The
emerging leader's guide toexceptional performance. My
Email ismichael@rightcordleadership.com
(25:04):
I would be delighted to connectwith any of your listeners who
are interested in what I do inthe any musicians out there that
want to talk music and how itrelates to entrepreneurship and
leadership, happy to do that. Soyeah, I encourage anyone who's
interested to reach out, behappy to chat with you.
Scott Ritzheimer (25:24):
Yeah. Dr. Michael Brenner, thank you so
much for being on the show. Justa privilege and honor having you
here today, and for those of youwatching and listening, you know
your time and attention mean theworld to us. I hope you got as
much out of this conversation asI know I did, and I cannot wait
to see you next time. Take care.
Michael Brenner (25:40):
Appreciate it. Thank you.
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