December 13, 2021 • 31 mins
Ann Vileisis is an author and environmental historian, intrigued by stories of food, ecology, and the connections between the two. This week, Brian traverses his fond memories of Ann’s vivid wetlands book, Discovering the Unknown Landscape, as they discuss these often-misunderstood ecosystems. They also explore Ann’s other books on the loss of traditional food knowledge, and the iridescent wonders of California’s abalone shellfish. Get stuck in!
Ann's website: https://www.annvileisis.com/
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Episode Transcript
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Pat Choate (00:02):
From the Center for the Advancement of the Steady
State Economy, this is theSteady Stater, a podcast
dedicated to discussing limitsto growth and the steady state
economy.
Brian Czech (00:18):
Welcome to the show! I'm your host, Brian
Czech, and our guest today isAnn Vileisis, an environmental
historian with a BA from Yaleand a MA from Utah State. She's
an award-winning author of threebooks on environmental history.
Now, let me tell you, thesearen't recklessly written books
and doesn't jump around fromsocial media to the blogosphere
(00:41):
to the magazine rack even.
Rather, she's a deep diver whochooses a topic, investigates
it, and writes a bonafide booklike no one else can, frankly.
Her first title was Discoveringthe Unknown Landscape - A
History of America's Wetlands.
The next one was KitchenLiteracy. And the latest one
(01:02):
published just last year wasAbalone. I'm saving the
subtitles on those last two justfor a little suspense. But these
are five-star books all the way.
Ann Vileisis, welcome to theSteady Stater.
Ann Vileisis (01:15):
Thank you so much, Brian, I'm delighted to be here
talking with you today.
Brian Czech (01:18):
We're delighted to have you, and sometimes we like
to get to know our guests alittle better before we even
talk about their work. Now yourhusband, Tim Palmer, he's a
pretty accomplished writer, aswell -- writer and a
photographer -- that must makefor some pretty good
conversation around your dinnertable.
Ann Vileisis (01:36):
Yeah, it's really fun to be married to a writer
and photographer. And we havethe wonderful opportunity to
share our lives and our work inreally great ways. We can talk
about ideas, since he alsowrites about environmental
topics. We can talk aboutwriting on so many levels. And
in fact, in our earlier lives,we did a lot of traveling
(01:58):
together. And travel isessential to his photography and
writing work. And it reallyenriched my historical research
to travel and see places andmeet people all around the
country. So it's been awonderful partnership.
Brian Czech (02:12):
You guys are out somewhere on the Oregon Coast
now, right?
Ann Vileisis (02:15):
That's where we have settled. Yes, a wonderful
-- the Oregon Coast is abeautiful place. We've got lots
of small towns, right on theocean, and we really love it
here. It's a beautiful place andsmall communities. So it suits
us very well.
Brian Czech (02:31):
Sounds beautiful.
Well, I'm a huge fan of yours.
You know, when I was a postdocstudying the conflict between
economic growth andenvironmental protection, your
book on wetlands hit my all-timelist and remains there to this
day. That book, of course,Discovering the Unknown
Landscape - A History ofAmerica's Wetlands, won several
(02:53):
prestigious awards. And for ourlisteners out there, if you ever
only read one book on wetlands-- and you absolutely should --
make it this one. Don't let the1999 copyright deter you. A good
history book ages like wine,especially when the ingredients
include natural history. Ann,can you give us an overview of
(03:13):
discovering the unknownlandscape?
Ann Vileisis (03:16):
Yeah, Brian. First of all, I have to say I'm
honored that you enjoyed thebook so much and found it so
useful. My premise inDiscovering the Unknown
Landscape was -- I was concernedthat we -- I realized that we
had lost so many wetlands. And Iwas also aware that in the past,
people had really despised anddisparaged wetlands. And that
(03:36):
was, of course, the reason forso much destruction of them. But
that in the late 20th centurythat we started to come to value
them, and I wanted to trace howit was that we went from really
despising wetlands to valuingthem. And so the book really
looks at that arc over 400 yearsof American history, our
attitudes towards wetlands, howthey changed, and how those
(03:58):
changes and attitudes helped toinform new policies that
resulted in greater conservationof wetlands. So anyway, that's
the general premise and thegeneral story. And I combined
also -- I'll just say I wovetogether stories about culture
and art and literature as wellas policy and law and history of
science. So it kind of weavesall these things together.
Brian Czech (04:19):
It sure did.
Another thing I remember wasZane Grey, like descriptions of
the environment. I guess I'maging myself, there greying
myself so to speak. But youknow, Zane Grey could put you
out in the desert as if you'reriding right through that Purple
Sage. And I'd say, Ann Vileisis,you can put the reader so far
into a wetland, your legs willfeel wet if you're not wearing
(04:41):
hip boots. You must spend a lotof time in wetlands, and I have
to ask what type of wetland isyour favorite?
Ann Vileisis (04:50):
Well, I did spend a lot of time in wetlands and
part of the reason I reallywanted to go out into them and
understand them is I reallyneeded to understand people's
writings about them -- thehistorical writings about them.
I realized I had not ever beenin wetlands like salt marshes or
Quaking Bogs or Prairie Potholesor Cypress Swamps. And it's a
(05:12):
hard question to ask, which ismy favorite, but I have to say I
really loved canoeing throughCypress Swamps with big giant
old trees in the Southeast. ButI also love the Quaking Bog and
walking on the edge of it --you're not really supposed to
walk on them -- but I kind oftried gently out to get that
sense of what is a bog -- like,what is the quaking bog like,
(05:33):
so. Really fascinatinglandscapes that I thought very
few people really experienced.
So part of what I had to do inmy book was to help people
understand them better.
Brian Czech (05:43):
Well, on the matter of favorites, that must depend a
little bit on the time of theyear too. You know, those
Northern bogs are a fardifferent place in the mosquito
clouds of summer than they arein the icy beauty of winter.
Ann Vileisis (05:55):
Oh, my gosh, yes.
Just not that long ago, wetraveled to some wetlands up on
the Upper Peninsula in the UP ofMichigan, and I never
experienced more mosquitoes inmy life than up there. So,
absolutely.
Brian Czech (06:12):
They borrowed some of them from Wisconsin, I think.
Well, you know, one of my papersduring that postdoc year I spent
was about the causes of speciesendangerment. And I settled upon
18 categories of causes, and oneof them was wetland draining or
filling, and it was lumped inwith aquifer depletion. One
(06:32):
thing I came away from yourbook, though, was that by the
time species were even beinglisted pursuant to the
Endangered Species Act, a lot ofwater had already gone under the
bridge. If they'd startedlisting species back in, let's
say, the 1930s, wetland drainingand filling would have been one
of the very top causes ofimpairment, I think. Can you
(06:53):
give us a few examples ofspecies that hit the skids due
to wetland loss?
Ann Vileisis (06:58):
Well, that's a great question, Brian. I'd say
one of the first endangeredspecies that was really put at
risk by wetland loss was theAmerican alligator, which
experienced loss of habitat, butalso was threatened by hunting.
So that was one species. But youknow, there were lots more all
across the country, maybe somethat were less well-known. In
(07:20):
San Francisco, for example,there was the clapper rail, some
small fish that were part of thebay habitat that were at risk.
There were some desert fish, youknow, that were endangered
species that were also verywetland-dependent. So these are
things that with the passage ofthe Endangered Species Act. It
(07:41):
really gave greater attention tothose animals and also the
importance of their habitat andkeeping them conserved into the
future. I would think, too, thatthere's plenty of amphibians,
water-dependent species likethat, that are also really
affected, but may not be aswell-known.
Brian Czech (07:58):
Well, and more recently, but starting decades
ago, but more newsworthy, Isuppose recently, I rebuild
woodpecker. That's basically abald cypress swamp species,
right? I don't know a lot aboutthe ivory-billed, but seems to
me that's a pretty crucialelement in their habitat.
Ann Vileisis (08:17):
Yes, I think you're absolutely right, Brian.
Those birds, I believe, were --are thought to have been
cavity-nesting birds that oncenested in those massive bald
cypress forests of theSoutheast. And you know, that
landscape, I think, is one ofthe ones I was most intrigued to
learn about, because thatlandscape was literally
(08:39):
destroyed, most all of it wascut over leaving nothing behind.
I wrote about an interestinglittle, you know, anecdote in my
book about how the city of NewOrleans at one point when they
were redeveloping, they foundthe old stumps, you know. And
the people that lived in thecity, at that time, had no idea
that there had once been vastforest. And so it's a case where
(09:01):
I think we really forgot whatwas there in the past and the
values that were lost. And theivory-billed, I think is an
excellent example of that. Sothank you for bringing that up.
Brian Czech (09:12):
And then the migratory birds, of course, were
even though some of them or mostof them may not have wound up on
federal list of threatened orendangered, they all plummeted
dramatically.
Ann Vileisis (09:26):
Yeah, I would say that the group of species that
were most greatly affected weremigratory birds, the waterfowl,
the geese, the wading birds, allof those species, all of those
creatures that really dependedon wetlands for food and for
restover stops and breedingspots. They were really the most
affected.
Brian Czech (09:47):
Yeah, I remember when I signed on with the US
Fish and Wildlife Service backin 1999, seems to me they gave
us a historical book -- I thinkit was called Flyways. And it
was all about the migratory birdand wetland as habitats,
concerns that really kicked offthe need for and the development
(10:10):
of the US Fish and WildlifeService, in particular, the
Office of Migratory Birds andthe National Wildlife Refuge
System where I worked. Thesewere originally, basically all
about migratory birdconservation. And as you alluded
to it with the alligator, butdefinitely with migratory birds
(10:30):
as well, you know, it was bothhunting. But then as the decades
went by, the early decades ofthe 20th century, it was much
more so a matter of that habitatloss.
Ann Vileisis (10:41):
Yeah, and I think that recognizing as the habitat
loss is accrued, recognizingthat there were fewer birds,
fewer waterfowl, the group thatreally recognized that were
hunters and sportsmen, at thattime, and really put a lot of
pressure to figure out a way toconserve habitat. And the
(11:01):
initial ways that people triedto do that were setting aside
wetland refuges. That was, at atime when we really didn't think
about regulating privateproperty. We were hoping that we
could just set aside refuges forwaterfowl, ducks and geese and
such. But that wasn't reallyenough, because the magnitude of
wetlands destruction was sogreat that just having little
(11:23):
refuges here and there, youknow, weren't enough. It's
certainly an important system.
Don't get me wrong, but it justwasn't enough to really, you
know, conserve our waterfallinto the future.
Brian Czech (11:33):
Absolutely not. As long as the overriding domestic
policy goal is GDP growth, theestablishment of some refuges
here and there is not going tocut it, and even those refuges
are going to be compromised atsome point. But you know, that's
kind of our our bag at CASSE.
But you know, even a fairlyseasoned wildlife ecologist like
myself -- I worked as abiologist and about five states
(11:55):
before reading your book -- buteven I was astounded at the
magnitude of loss you described.
And as I recall, some of thestates that really stood out to
me at least were Indiana,Illinois, and Iowa, the
contiguous eyes, as it were.
Ann Vileisis (12:12):
Yeah.
Brian Czech (12:13):
What might we have seen, Ann, say, back in the
1860s, if we'd been able to flyover those half 1000 miles from,
say, Fort Wayne out to DesMoines?
Ann Vileisis (12:23):
Yeah, that was another remarkable thing to
discover, which was the wetlandsin that region were vast inland
marshes. And there were riversthat meandered, you know, big
broad meanders and floodedregularly into these grassland,
floodplains, probably withpockets of forest and cops as
well. And so there were theseincredibly rich wetland
(12:46):
landscapes that were habitat forall sorts of wild animals and
birds. But anyway, yeah, andwhat happened, of course, is
this settlement moved west,people started to drain those
wetlands for agriculture. Sowhat we have today is so
entirely different, you know, wehave the monoculture of corn
(13:06):
crops or soy beans in a placethat was once incredibly rich
with all sorts of consequences.
Brian Czech (13:12):
Yeah, that's why it takes so much coffee to drive
across Illinois. Well, I want tomention now, that discovering
the unknown landscape won awardsfrom the American Historical
Association and the AmericanSociety for Environmental
History. That's quite a way tokick off your career as a book
author, Ann!
Ann Vileisis (13:34):
I know. I was truly honored to receive those
big national awards in my field-- it was a total honor. One of
the other things I just wantedto say is, in my books, I really
try to write to reach out to abroader audience so that they're
not strictly academic orargument-based, but that they
really explore through stories.
So I hope people enjoy readingthem and learn as they go.
(13:56):
That's kind of the way I like todo it.
Brian Czech (14:00):
Absolutely, and your next book was Kitchen
Literacy - How We Lost Knowledgeof Where Food Comes From and Why
We Need to Get it Back. Butactually, I think we need to
cook up a short non-commercialbreak with James Lamont. Take it
away James!
James Lamont (14:22):
Hello, listeners! We hope you're enjoying the
show. If you enjoy learning, youmight be interested to know that
CASSE is seeking applicants forour Spring Internship Program.
We seek students or recentgraduates with relevant
coursework and experience. Openpositions include accounting,
administration, communications,editorial, economic modeling and
mathematics, economic policy,environmental studies, IT,
(14:45):
nonprofit management, politicalscience, statistics, and video
production. The program is agreat career building
opportunity. In fact, we'vehired numerous past interns,
including our internshipcoordinator, Elise. To apply,
email a resume toeliseminer@steadystate.org. If
you're a student, you can alsofind CASSE at joinhandshake.com.
(15:06):
We'll be accepting applicationsthrough the end of the year. And
now, back to the show.
Brian Czech (15:11):
Welcome back, folks. We're talking with Ann
Vileisis. And we've talked abouther first book Discovering the
Unknown Landscape, all aboutwetlands. And we introduced the
next book. And actually theconversation, Ann, that we were
having right before thenon-commercial break was a great
segue because waterfowl, one ofthe reasons that there was such
(15:34):
concern over the drop was theyweren't only wonderful to look
at, they were a key food formany families, especially
families into the four mainflyways of the US. Was your book
on wetlands sort of a naturalway into the book about kitchen
Literacy?
Ann Vileisis (15:52):
Absolutely, Brian.
What happened is, when I wasresearching my wetlands book, I
really had kind of an epiphany,which was the tremendous impacts
of our food system, bothagriculture, and otherwise, on
wetlands and the environment ingeneral. And I just had a
feeling that people didn't getthat the food how foods are
produced have such a tremendousimpact. You know, we've already
(16:15):
discussed how the impact onwetlands because of the
conversion of wetlands intofarmland. You've just described
sort of a another part of it,which is that people depended on
some wild foods. And those wildfoods were actually subjected to
also overfishing or overhunting.
(16:36):
So that was another part of it.
And then as the food systembecame industrialized, and we
had to grow more and more tosupply growing and growing
cities, we had to turn to newtechnologies like pesticides and
herbicides that polluted thewater, and also to things like
industrial agriculture, whichhave a lot of pollution. So I
just had a feeling that peopledidn't get any of that. Because
(16:59):
when you go into the supermarketto shop, you just end up seeing,
you know, all these familiarproducts that have characters
like Tony the Tiger and AuntJemima and such -- don't really
think about the real stories ofour food. So that's really what
inspired me to get into thisbook to try to figure out how we
lost knowledge of those realstories.
Brian Czech (17:19):
I'm glad you did.
And that book was ahead of thetime of, you know, a number of
other books that came outsubsequent to that. Let me share
a little hypothesis and see ifit fits with your findings. You
know, everybody talks about howmuch better grandma's food was,
and surely it was good! MyPolish grandma was a heck of a
cook. But it strikes me that anoverlooked reason grandma's
(17:39):
cooking was so great was thoseingredients came fresh from the
farm and not from somegenetically modified
phosphate-filled factory fieldor some hydroponic hang out in
the middle of Houston. Do youthink that was grandma's secret,
those homegrown ingredients?
Ann Vileisis (17:58):
Absolutely! I think that was definitely one
part of it, Brian. I mean, weall know the difference between
eating. Well, we don't all know,but that there's a tremendous
difference between eating ahomegrown tomato, or one even
that you can get at a farmersmarket versus the ones you get
in a supermarket. And that'ssomething that many people are
having more experience with asthe opportunities to eat more
(18:22):
local foods has actuallyrebounded again more recently.
Not for everybody, but more andmore people are having that
opportunity. I think you'retotally right.
Brian Czech (18:32):
Well, that's one of the few encouraging things that
there are received pocketsappearing here and there, where
the local production andconsumption of food is coming
back. And yeah, makes for somebetter, better grub.
Ann Vileisis (18:47):
It's not only taste, it's also, you know,
there is increasing researchabout that local foods can be
more nutritious, you know, theantioxidants are preserved
longer and such like that. Sothere's more that's being
learned all the time about howwe can make our agriculture not
only taste better, and be morenutritious, but also be more
sustainable. And that'ssomething actually that even
(19:10):
since I wrote my book, I thinkthere's more attention with the
climate crisis into looking athow can we manage our soils to
be more productive, moresequestering of carbon, even at
the same time as we're makingour foods more nutritious. So I
think getting people to thinkabout where their foods come
from, and that connection helpsto lead us to all these other
(19:31):
good things.
Brian Czech (19:32):
Well, going back long before grandma, even what
were some of the foodstuffs thatsurprised you from the 1800s?
Ann Vileisis (19:41):
Well, one of the things that really surprised me
more than anything, I thinkperhaps, is just how -- just the
intimacy that people had withthe animals that became the
meats that they would eat. Ifyou think about it, most people
at that time were eating animalsthat either came from their own
backyards or from farms thatwere nearby. So the kind of
(20:02):
knowledge they had about animalswas very different, you know.
They wanted to know where theanimal came from that was
treated well, the kinds of foodit ate, or there might be
different recipes for younganimals, or male or female, or
animals of different ages. So Ifound that to be really
interesting.
Brian Czech (20:22):
Yeah, that is so much nuance in that.
Ann Vileisis (20:25):
Also, it really struck me the tremendous amount
of knowledge that people had tohave in order to raise their own
food and orchestrate theireating. That was really
fascinating to me -- when Itried to, you know, consider it
in contrast to the way we thinkabout foods today, you know,
just run to the supermarket, runto a restaurant -- most people
don't have that degree ofknowledge. That knowledge is
(20:46):
really connects us to the largernatural world and helps us to
understand things like limitsand constraints as well as
possibilities, so it wasinteresting to think about those
things.
Brian Czech (20:59):
That's a really good point. Well, I think steady
staters have a good sense of howwe lost the knowledge of where
food comes from. But were thereany surprises you stumbled upon?
Let's see pertaining to supplygenes, or labeling, or even the
changes in agriculturalgeography over these decades of
(21:20):
global heating?
Ann Vileisis (21:23):
Well, one thing that's, of course, very
interesting and often commentedupon is just how much the
distance between a farms andplates have increased through
time, you know, that food isjust come from farther and
farther away. And that'ssomething I think we generally
know. But, you know, it's clearthat that's part of the
(21:43):
disconnect, and also part ofwhat creates problems with
supply chains requiring morefuel, more steps along the way,
more packaging, more need foradvertising and communication
that can be -- perhaps, you know-- not true. Another thing that
I found really fascinating isthat at the time that America's
(22:04):
food system was industrializing,people really did not like those
changes. You know, I think we'vebeen told that, oh, everybody
wanted convenience foods.
Convenience is the best thingthat any of us could want in
food. But really to go back andstudy the history of the food
system, I learned that peopleresisted those changes. And we
(22:25):
really needed advertising toconvince us of the new criteria,
that should be regarded asfavorable. And that was a really
interesting thing to trace how-- what we thought was important
about food change through time,and how much the advertising
industry helped to shape that.
Brian Czech (22:47):
That is really an important part of the whole
picture, isn't it? And you had-- was it one chapter that was
pretty much devoted to that?
Ann Vileisis (22:57):
Yeah, it was really interesting, because the
food system, basically theindustrialized food system was
coming to age, basically, at thesame time that advertising was
becoming a big part of Americanculture in the early part of the
20th century. So both were kindof new and cutting their teeth
at the same time. So if you canimagine living in a world where
(23:17):
you don't have advertising, andthen all of a sudden you have
it, that kind of promotionalwriting, promotional images, and
all those things, people had tolearn how to digest it, so to
speak -- pardon the pun. Becausethey weren't used to promotional
writing. And so I think that wasa very interesting thing to go
(23:38):
back and learn about and, youknow, it helps us to reflect on
our own understanding right nowof the world. You know, why do
we think that calories are soimportant, as opposed to where
food comes from? Or why do wethink, you know, one thing or
another is more important?
Convenience is more importantthan stewardship of the land
that the food comes from, or thetreatment of workers were that
are growing the food? So theseare all things that I found
(24:01):
really interesting to studythrough time.
Brian Czech (24:06):
Alright, let's go to your most recent book,
Abalone - The Remarkable Historyand Uncertain Future of
California's Iconic Shellfish.
And, for starters, what isAbalone?
Ann Vileisis (24:19):
So, an abalone is a really unique shellfish, a
mollusk. It grows and lives allaround the world. But in the
North America, it's waspredominantly an animal that
lived on the West Coast inCalifornia and became hugely
important for cultural reasons,because it has a brilliant
iridescent shell that is juststunning and captivating, as
(24:42):
well as a big meaty foot thatpeople loved as a seafood. As
you might imagine, because thisanimal was so loved and
cherished -- it was sort ofcherished and loved, but because
it was loved for ways we coulduse it -- over time it really
hit some hard times andultimately has become very
(25:03):
imperiled.
Brian Czech (25:05):
Yeah, kind of got loved to death. And you
mentioned the shell and they arejust profoundly gorgeous. And it
strikes me the family ishaliotidae maybe some of the
circular patterns in thoseshells like little halos. You
think that's the origin of that,and the genus is haliotis, I
(25:26):
guess.
Ann Vileisis (25:27):
Yeah, it actually, haliotis actually means "sea
ear." And it came from -- it wasnamed by Aristotle, because the
abalone of the Mediterranean aresmaller and sort of the size and
shape of a human ear. So that'swhere it comes from -- sea ear,
you know. I came to writingabout abalone in some ways, it
(25:48):
was the thread went fromwetlands, where I actually
learned initially aboutshellfish in estuaries that were
destroyed. When wetlands weredestroyed, I became interested
in that food environmentconnection there, wrote about
that connection in KitchenLiteracy. But I realized in
Kitchen Literacy that animalsthat are wild foods are really
(26:09):
particularly vulnerable for thatreason -- that we can love them
to death. And so to get back toyour earlier question, this is
now actually an endangeredspecies too, several of them are
endangered species. There areseven species on the West Coast.
Brian Czech (26:23):
Right. Well, in those uses that were one of the
reasons abalone was loved todeath, what would you say is the
most prominent uses? Food,tools, ornaments?
Ann Vileisis (26:35):
Well, through time, you know, indigenous
people are thought to have cometo the West Coast at least 13-
to 15,000 years ago. And so, atleast 6,000 years ago, or more
they would, the shells were usedas tools and ornaments and for
ceremonial purposes -- really awonderful cultural use of an
animal and material in ways thatwe can barely, you know,
(26:59):
imagine. It was reallyinteresting to learn about that.
But they were also used forsubsistence, and they became one
of the West Coast first globalcommodities in the mid-19th
century, at the time of the GoldRush. When immigrants from Asia
came over across the Pacific anddiscovered so many abundant
(27:20):
abalone, it kickstarted a globaltrade for this animal, and its
meat and shells.
Brian Czech (27:27):
Did you find evidence that it was essentially
a form of proto money likewampum in the for the Eastern
tribes, prior to the Europeansettlement out there?
Ann Vileisis (27:38):
Yeah, you know, it's very interesting that you
asked that question. Becausethere's a lot of interesting
writing about shell money, andabalone was definitely used for
exchange, but it had a specialand different kind of meaning
because of that brilliant,unique iridescence. And the fact
that it was actually probablysomewhat rare of an animal at
(28:02):
different times through history.
It was cherished and held invery high esteem. And so rather
than just using it as like, youknow, currency, it had a deeper
meaning. It was used, forexample, to resolve big
conflicts or was used tosymbolize larger meanings in a
gift exchange. So it's a littlebit different, I think, than
(28:22):
just currency.
Brian Czech (28:25):
Right. Well, I'm dying to ask you, Ann, what's
your next book about?
Ann Vileisis (28:30):
Oh, my gosh, brand. I don't have a good
answer for that yet, because I'mstill out and about talking
about my Abalone book andgetting it out into the world.
But I do have some ideas. I'minterested in maybe doing some
writing about the salmon of thePacific Northwest, which is
where I live and that have asimilar story to abalone in
terms of being an animal that isvery cherished and cared about
(28:54):
and yet is really facingdifficult times. I find myself
being fascinated to write andstudy about wildlife and the
challenges we have in trying tohelp conserve these animals and
our kindred creatures into thefuture, especially in the face
of climate crisis challenges.
Brian Czech (29:13):
What about sort of some of the ancient and -- well
not ancient entirely, I mean,some of the Pacific Northwest
tribes still have a bit of aPotlatch culture and so on that
interface with food productionand distribution is -- maybe not
really -- the highlight ofPotlatch culture, but you take
(29:33):
an interest in sort of the thecultural aspects of food
production in the Northwest.
Ann Vileisis (29:39):
You know, I have not researched that extensively
yet myself, but I do know wehave a pretty vibrant and
growing interest, I think, onthe West Coast in general,
understanding the need torestore indigenous food systems
as a way of helping to restorecultural justice and such things
with tribal nations. So, I thinkthose are things that are very
(30:02):
interesting, and I look forwardto learning more about them.
Brian Czech (30:06):
Well, whatever that next book is about, I'm really
looking forward to it. And Ann,it's been a great pleasure
talking with you today, andwe'll look forward to having you
back on the show for a deeperdive into one or two or three or
four of these books.
Ann Vileisis (30:21):
Thank you so much, Brian. It would be fun to talk
more with you about, you know,the steady stater perspective on
some of these stories that I'vewritten about. So thanks so much
for the opportunity to talk withyou today.
Brian Czech (30:49):
Well folks, that about wraps 'er up. We've been
talking with Ann Vileisis,environmental historian and
impeccable author. If you askedme, she set the standard for
crystally clear, flawlesslylogical, policy-relevant and yet
entertaining environmentalnon-fiction. Go get one of her
books. I'm going to recommend,Discovering the Unknown
(31:11):
Landscape to start with, and I'mguessing you want to read the
other two as well. I'm BrianCzech, and you've been listening
to The Steady Stater podcast.
See you next time!
From the Center for the Advancement of the Steady
State Economy, this is theSteady Stater, a podcast
dedicated to discussing limitsto growth and the steady state
economy.
Brian Czech (00:18):
Welcome to the show! I'm your host, Brian
Czech, and our guest today isAnn Vileisis, an environmental
historian with a BA from Yaleand a MA from Utah State. She's
an award-winning author of threebooks on environmental history.
Now, let me tell you, thesearen't recklessly written books
and doesn't jump around fromsocial media to the blogosphere
(00:41):
to the magazine rack even.
Rather, she's a deep diver whochooses a topic, investigates
it, and writes a bonafide booklike no one else can, frankly.
Her first title was Discoveringthe Unknown Landscape - A
History of America's Wetlands.
The next one was KitchenLiteracy. And the latest one
(01:02):
published just last year wasAbalone. I'm saving the
subtitles on those last two justfor a little suspense. But these
are five-star books all the way.
Ann Vileisis, welcome to theSteady Stater.
Ann Vileisis (01:15):
Thank you so much, Brian, I'm delighted to be here
talking with you today.
Brian Czech (01:18):
We're delighted to have you, and sometimes we like
to get to know our guests alittle better before we even
talk about their work. Now yourhusband, Tim Palmer, he's a
pretty accomplished writer, aswell -- writer and a
photographer -- that must makefor some pretty good
conversation around your dinnertable.
Ann Vileisis (01:36):
Yeah, it's really fun to be married to a writer
and photographer. And we havethe wonderful opportunity to
share our lives and our work inreally great ways. We can talk
about ideas, since he alsowrites about environmental
topics. We can talk aboutwriting on so many levels. And
in fact, in our earlier lives,we did a lot of traveling
(01:58):
together. And travel isessential to his photography and
writing work. And it reallyenriched my historical research
to travel and see places andmeet people all around the
country. So it's been awonderful partnership.
Brian Czech (02:12):
You guys are out somewhere on the Oregon Coast
now, right?
Ann Vileisis (02:15):
That's where we have settled. Yes, a wonderful
-- the Oregon Coast is abeautiful place. We've got lots
of small towns, right on theocean, and we really love it
here. It's a beautiful place andsmall communities. So it suits
us very well.
Brian Czech (02:31):
Sounds beautiful.
Well, I'm a huge fan of yours.
You know, when I was a postdocstudying the conflict between
economic growth andenvironmental protection, your
book on wetlands hit my all-timelist and remains there to this
day. That book, of course,Discovering the Unknown
Landscape - A History ofAmerica's Wetlands, won several
(02:53):
prestigious awards. And for ourlisteners out there, if you ever
only read one book on wetlands-- and you absolutely should --
make it this one. Don't let the1999 copyright deter you. A good
history book ages like wine,especially when the ingredients
include natural history. Ann,can you give us an overview of
(03:13):
discovering the unknownlandscape?
Ann Vileisis (03:16):
Yeah, Brian. First of all, I have to say I'm
honored that you enjoyed thebook so much and found it so
useful. My premise inDiscovering the Unknown
Landscape was -- I was concernedthat we -- I realized that we
had lost so many wetlands. And Iwas also aware that in the past,
people had really despised anddisparaged wetlands. And that
(03:36):
was, of course, the reason forso much destruction of them. But
that in the late 20th centurythat we started to come to value
them, and I wanted to trace howit was that we went from really
despising wetlands to valuingthem. And so the book really
looks at that arc over 400 yearsof American history, our
attitudes towards wetlands, howthey changed, and how those
(03:58):
changes and attitudes helped toinform new policies that
resulted in greater conservationof wetlands. So anyway, that's
the general premise and thegeneral story. And I combined
also -- I'll just say I wovetogether stories about culture
and art and literature as wellas policy and law and history of
science. So it kind of weavesall these things together.
Brian Czech (04:19):
It sure did.
Another thing I remember wasZane Grey, like descriptions of
the environment. I guess I'maging myself, there greying
myself so to speak. But youknow, Zane Grey could put you
out in the desert as if you'reriding right through that Purple
Sage. And I'd say, Ann Vileisis,you can put the reader so far
into a wetland, your legs willfeel wet if you're not wearing
(04:41):
hip boots. You must spend a lotof time in wetlands, and I have
to ask what type of wetland isyour favorite?
Ann Vileisis (04:50):
Well, I did spend a lot of time in wetlands and
part of the reason I reallywanted to go out into them and
understand them is I reallyneeded to understand people's
writings about them -- thehistorical writings about them.
I realized I had not ever beenin wetlands like salt marshes or
Quaking Bogs or Prairie Potholesor Cypress Swamps. And it's a
(05:12):
hard question to ask, which ismy favorite, but I have to say I
really loved canoeing throughCypress Swamps with big giant
old trees in the Southeast. ButI also love the Quaking Bog and
walking on the edge of it --you're not really supposed to
walk on them -- but I kind oftried gently out to get that
sense of what is a bog -- like,what is the quaking bog like,
(05:33):
so. Really fascinatinglandscapes that I thought very
few people really experienced.
So part of what I had to do inmy book was to help people
understand them better.
Brian Czech (05:43):
Well, on the matter of favorites, that must depend a
little bit on the time of theyear too. You know, those
Northern bogs are a fardifferent place in the mosquito
clouds of summer than they arein the icy beauty of winter.
Ann Vileisis (05:55):
Oh, my gosh, yes.
Just not that long ago, wetraveled to some wetlands up on
the Upper Peninsula in the UP ofMichigan, and I never
experienced more mosquitoes inmy life than up there. So,
absolutely.
Brian Czech (06:12):
They borrowed some of them from Wisconsin, I think.
Well, you know, one of my papersduring that postdoc year I spent
was about the causes of speciesendangerment. And I settled upon
18 categories of causes, and oneof them was wetland draining or
filling, and it was lumped inwith aquifer depletion. One
(06:32):
thing I came away from yourbook, though, was that by the
time species were even beinglisted pursuant to the
Endangered Species Act, a lot ofwater had already gone under the
bridge. If they'd startedlisting species back in, let's
say, the 1930s, wetland drainingand filling would have been one
of the very top causes ofimpairment, I think. Can you
(06:53):
give us a few examples ofspecies that hit the skids due
to wetland loss?
Ann Vileisis (06:58):
Well, that's a great question, Brian. I'd say
one of the first endangeredspecies that was really put at
risk by wetland loss was theAmerican alligator, which
experienced loss of habitat, butalso was threatened by hunting.
So that was one species. But youknow, there were lots more all
across the country, maybe somethat were less well-known. In
(07:20):
San Francisco, for example,there was the clapper rail, some
small fish that were part of thebay habitat that were at risk.
There were some desert fish, youknow, that were endangered
species that were also verywetland-dependent. So these are
things that with the passage ofthe Endangered Species Act. It
(07:41):
really gave greater attention tothose animals and also the
importance of their habitat andkeeping them conserved into the
future. I would think, too, thatthere's plenty of amphibians,
water-dependent species likethat, that are also really
affected, but may not be aswell-known.
Brian Czech (07:58):
Well, and more recently, but starting decades
ago, but more newsworthy, Isuppose recently, I rebuild
woodpecker. That's basically abald cypress swamp species,
right? I don't know a lot aboutthe ivory-billed, but seems to
me that's a pretty crucialelement in their habitat.
Ann Vileisis (08:17):
Yes, I think you're absolutely right, Brian.
Those birds, I believe, were --are thought to have been
cavity-nesting birds that oncenested in those massive bald
cypress forests of theSoutheast. And you know, that
landscape, I think, is one ofthe ones I was most intrigued to
learn about, because thatlandscape was literally
(08:39):
destroyed, most all of it wascut over leaving nothing behind.
I wrote about an interestinglittle, you know, anecdote in my
book about how the city of NewOrleans at one point when they
were redeveloping, they foundthe old stumps, you know. And
the people that lived in thecity, at that time, had no idea
that there had once been vastforest. And so it's a case where
(09:01):
I think we really forgot whatwas there in the past and the
values that were lost. And theivory-billed, I think is an
excellent example of that. Sothank you for bringing that up.
Brian Czech (09:12):
And then the migratory birds, of course, were
even though some of them or mostof them may not have wound up on
federal list of threatened orendangered, they all plummeted
dramatically.
Ann Vileisis (09:26):
Yeah, I would say that the group of species that
were most greatly affected weremigratory birds, the waterfowl,
the geese, the wading birds, allof those species, all of those
creatures that really dependedon wetlands for food and for
restover stops and breedingspots. They were really the most
affected.
Brian Czech (09:47):
Yeah, I remember when I signed on with the US
Fish and Wildlife Service backin 1999, seems to me they gave
us a historical book -- I thinkit was called Flyways. And it
was all about the migratory birdand wetland as habitats,
concerns that really kicked offthe need for and the development
(10:10):
of the US Fish and WildlifeService, in particular, the
Office of Migratory Birds andthe National Wildlife Refuge
System where I worked. Thesewere originally, basically all
about migratory birdconservation. And as you alluded
to it with the alligator, butdefinitely with migratory birds
(10:30):
as well, you know, it was bothhunting. But then as the decades
went by, the early decades ofthe 20th century, it was much
more so a matter of that habitatloss.
Ann Vileisis (10:41):
Yeah, and I think that recognizing as the habitat
loss is accrued, recognizingthat there were fewer birds,
fewer waterfowl, the group thatreally recognized that were
hunters and sportsmen, at thattime, and really put a lot of
pressure to figure out a way toconserve habitat. And the
(11:01):
initial ways that people triedto do that were setting aside
wetland refuges. That was, at atime when we really didn't think
about regulating privateproperty. We were hoping that we
could just set aside refuges forwaterfowl, ducks and geese and
such. But that wasn't reallyenough, because the magnitude of
wetlands destruction was sogreat that just having little
(11:23):
refuges here and there, youknow, weren't enough. It's
certainly an important system.
Don't get me wrong, but it justwasn't enough to really, you
know, conserve our waterfallinto the future.
Brian Czech (11:33):
Absolutely not. As long as the overriding domestic
policy goal is GDP growth, theestablishment of some refuges
here and there is not going tocut it, and even those refuges
are going to be compromised atsome point. But you know, that's
kind of our our bag at CASSE.
But you know, even a fairlyseasoned wildlife ecologist like
myself -- I worked as abiologist and about five states
(11:55):
before reading your book -- buteven I was astounded at the
magnitude of loss you described.
And as I recall, some of thestates that really stood out to
me at least were Indiana,Illinois, and Iowa, the
contiguous eyes, as it were.
Ann Vileisis (12:12):
Yeah.
Brian Czech (12:13):
What might we have seen, Ann, say, back in the
1860s, if we'd been able to flyover those half 1000 miles from,
say, Fort Wayne out to DesMoines?
Ann Vileisis (12:23):
Yeah, that was another remarkable thing to
discover, which was the wetlandsin that region were vast inland
marshes. And there were riversthat meandered, you know, big
broad meanders and floodedregularly into these grassland,
floodplains, probably withpockets of forest and cops as
well. And so there were theseincredibly rich wetland
(12:46):
landscapes that were habitat forall sorts of wild animals and
birds. But anyway, yeah, andwhat happened, of course, is
this settlement moved west,people started to drain those
wetlands for agriculture. Sowhat we have today is so
entirely different, you know, wehave the monoculture of corn
(13:06):
crops or soy beans in a placethat was once incredibly rich
with all sorts of consequences.
Brian Czech (13:12):
Yeah, that's why it takes so much coffee to drive
across Illinois. Well, I want tomention now, that discovering
the unknown landscape won awardsfrom the American Historical
Association and the AmericanSociety for Environmental
History. That's quite a way tokick off your career as a book
author, Ann!
Ann Vileisis (13:34):
I know. I was truly honored to receive those
big national awards in my field-- it was a total honor. One of
the other things I just wantedto say is, in my books, I really
try to write to reach out to abroader audience so that they're
not strictly academic orargument-based, but that they
really explore through stories.
So I hope people enjoy readingthem and learn as they go.
(13:56):
That's kind of the way I like todo it.
Brian Czech (14:00):
Absolutely, and your next book was Kitchen
Literacy - How We Lost Knowledgeof Where Food Comes From and Why
We Need to Get it Back. Butactually, I think we need to
cook up a short non-commercialbreak with James Lamont. Take it
away James!
James Lamont (14:22):
Hello, listeners! We hope you're enjoying the
show. If you enjoy learning, youmight be interested to know that
CASSE is seeking applicants forour Spring Internship Program.
We seek students or recentgraduates with relevant
coursework and experience. Openpositions include accounting,
administration, communications,editorial, economic modeling and
mathematics, economic policy,environmental studies, IT,
(14:45):
nonprofit management, politicalscience, statistics, and video
production. The program is agreat career building
opportunity. In fact, we'vehired numerous past interns,
including our internshipcoordinator, Elise. To apply,
email a resume toeliseminer@steadystate.org. If
you're a student, you can alsofind CASSE at joinhandshake.com.
(15:06):
We'll be accepting applicationsthrough the end of the year. And
now, back to the show.
Brian Czech (15:11):
Welcome back, folks. We're talking with Ann
Vileisis. And we've talked abouther first book Discovering the
Unknown Landscape, all aboutwetlands. And we introduced the
next book. And actually theconversation, Ann, that we were
having right before thenon-commercial break was a great
segue because waterfowl, one ofthe reasons that there was such
(15:34):
concern over the drop was theyweren't only wonderful to look
at, they were a key food formany families, especially
families into the four mainflyways of the US. Was your book
on wetlands sort of a naturalway into the book about kitchen
Literacy?
Ann Vileisis (15:52):
Absolutely, Brian.
What happened is, when I wasresearching my wetlands book, I
really had kind of an epiphany,which was the tremendous impacts
of our food system, bothagriculture, and otherwise, on
wetlands and the environment ingeneral. And I just had a
feeling that people didn't getthat the food how foods are
produced have such a tremendousimpact. You know, we've already
(16:15):
discussed how the impact onwetlands because of the
conversion of wetlands intofarmland. You've just described
sort of a another part of it,which is that people depended on
some wild foods. And those wildfoods were actually subjected to
also overfishing or overhunting.
(16:36):
So that was another part of it.
And then as the food systembecame industrialized, and we
had to grow more and more tosupply growing and growing
cities, we had to turn to newtechnologies like pesticides and
herbicides that polluted thewater, and also to things like
industrial agriculture, whichhave a lot of pollution. So I
just had a feeling that peopledidn't get any of that. Because
(16:59):
when you go into the supermarketto shop, you just end up seeing,
you know, all these familiarproducts that have characters
like Tony the Tiger and AuntJemima and such -- don't really
think about the real stories ofour food. So that's really what
inspired me to get into thisbook to try to figure out how we
lost knowledge of those realstories.
Brian Czech (17:19):
I'm glad you did.
And that book was ahead of thetime of, you know, a number of
other books that came outsubsequent to that. Let me share
a little hypothesis and see ifit fits with your findings. You
know, everybody talks about howmuch better grandma's food was,
and surely it was good! MyPolish grandma was a heck of a
cook. But it strikes me that anoverlooked reason grandma's
(17:39):
cooking was so great was thoseingredients came fresh from the
farm and not from somegenetically modified
phosphate-filled factory fieldor some hydroponic hang out in
the middle of Houston. Do youthink that was grandma's secret,
those homegrown ingredients?
Ann Vileisis (17:58):
Absolutely! I think that was definitely one
part of it, Brian. I mean, weall know the difference between
eating. Well, we don't all know,but that there's a tremendous
difference between eating ahomegrown tomato, or one even
that you can get at a farmersmarket versus the ones you get
in a supermarket. And that'ssomething that many people are
having more experience with asthe opportunities to eat more
(18:22):
local foods has actuallyrebounded again more recently.
Not for everybody, but more andmore people are having that
opportunity. I think you'retotally right.
Brian Czech (18:32):
Well, that's one of the few encouraging things that
there are received pocketsappearing here and there, where
the local production andconsumption of food is coming
back. And yeah, makes for somebetter, better grub.
Ann Vileisis (18:47):
It's not only taste, it's also, you know,
there is increasing researchabout that local foods can be
more nutritious, you know, theantioxidants are preserved
longer and such like that. Sothere's more that's being
learned all the time about howwe can make our agriculture not
only taste better, and be morenutritious, but also be more
sustainable. And that'ssomething actually that even
(19:10):
since I wrote my book, I thinkthere's more attention with the
climate crisis into looking athow can we manage our soils to
be more productive, moresequestering of carbon, even at
the same time as we're makingour foods more nutritious. So I
think getting people to thinkabout where their foods come
from, and that connection helpsto lead us to all these other
(19:31):
good things.
Brian Czech (19:32):
Well, going back long before grandma, even what
were some of the foodstuffs thatsurprised you from the 1800s?
Ann Vileisis (19:41):
Well, one of the things that really surprised me
more than anything, I thinkperhaps, is just how -- just the
intimacy that people had withthe animals that became the
meats that they would eat. Ifyou think about it, most people
at that time were eating animalsthat either came from their own
backyards or from farms thatwere nearby. So the kind of
(20:02):
knowledge they had about animalswas very different, you know.
They wanted to know where theanimal came from that was
treated well, the kinds of foodit ate, or there might be
different recipes for younganimals, or male or female, or
animals of different ages. So Ifound that to be really
interesting.
Brian Czech (20:22):
Yeah, that is so much nuance in that.
Ann Vileisis (20:25):
Also, it really struck me the tremendous amount
of knowledge that people had tohave in order to raise their own
food and orchestrate theireating. That was really
fascinating to me -- when Itried to, you know, consider it
in contrast to the way we thinkabout foods today, you know,
just run to the supermarket, runto a restaurant -- most people
don't have that degree ofknowledge. That knowledge is
(20:46):
really connects us to the largernatural world and helps us to
understand things like limitsand constraints as well as
possibilities, so it wasinteresting to think about those
things.
Brian Czech (20:59):
That's a really good point. Well, I think steady
staters have a good sense of howwe lost the knowledge of where
food comes from. But were thereany surprises you stumbled upon?
Let's see pertaining to supplygenes, or labeling, or even the
changes in agriculturalgeography over these decades of
(21:20):
global heating?
Ann Vileisis (21:23):
Well, one thing that's, of course, very
interesting and often commentedupon is just how much the
distance between a farms andplates have increased through
time, you know, that food isjust come from farther and
farther away. And that'ssomething I think we generally
know. But, you know, it's clearthat that's part of the
(21:43):
disconnect, and also part ofwhat creates problems with
supply chains requiring morefuel, more steps along the way,
more packaging, more need foradvertising and communication
that can be -- perhaps, you know-- not true. Another thing that
I found really fascinating isthat at the time that America's
(22:04):
food system was industrializing,people really did not like those
changes. You know, I think we'vebeen told that, oh, everybody
wanted convenience foods.
Convenience is the best thingthat any of us could want in
food. But really to go back andstudy the history of the food
system, I learned that peopleresisted those changes. And we
(22:25):
really needed advertising toconvince us of the new criteria,
that should be regarded asfavorable. And that was a really
interesting thing to trace how-- what we thought was important
about food change through time,and how much the advertising
industry helped to shape that.
Brian Czech (22:47):
That is really an important part of the whole
picture, isn't it? And you had-- was it one chapter that was
pretty much devoted to that?
Ann Vileisis (22:57):
Yeah, it was really interesting, because the
food system, basically theindustrialized food system was
coming to age, basically, at thesame time that advertising was
becoming a big part of Americanculture in the early part of the
20th century. So both were kindof new and cutting their teeth
at the same time. So if you canimagine living in a world where
(23:17):
you don't have advertising, andthen all of a sudden you have
it, that kind of promotionalwriting, promotional images, and
all those things, people had tolearn how to digest it, so to
speak -- pardon the pun. Becausethey weren't used to promotional
writing. And so I think that wasa very interesting thing to go
(23:38):
back and learn about and, youknow, it helps us to reflect on
our own understanding right nowof the world. You know, why do
we think that calories are soimportant, as opposed to where
food comes from? Or why do wethink, you know, one thing or
another is more important?
Convenience is more importantthan stewardship of the land
that the food comes from, or thetreatment of workers were that
are growing the food? So theseare all things that I found
(24:01):
really interesting to studythrough time.
Brian Czech (24:06):
Alright, let's go to your most recent book,
Abalone - The Remarkable Historyand Uncertain Future of
California's Iconic Shellfish.
And, for starters, what isAbalone?
Ann Vileisis (24:19):
So, an abalone is a really unique shellfish, a
mollusk. It grows and lives allaround the world. But in the
North America, it's waspredominantly an animal that
lived on the West Coast inCalifornia and became hugely
important for cultural reasons,because it has a brilliant
iridescent shell that is juststunning and captivating, as
(24:42):
well as a big meaty foot thatpeople loved as a seafood. As
you might imagine, because thisanimal was so loved and
cherished -- it was sort ofcherished and loved, but because
it was loved for ways we coulduse it -- over time it really
hit some hard times andultimately has become very
(25:03):
imperiled.
Brian Czech (25:05):
Yeah, kind of got loved to death. And you
mentioned the shell and they arejust profoundly gorgeous. And it
strikes me the family ishaliotidae maybe some of the
circular patterns in thoseshells like little halos. You
think that's the origin of that,and the genus is haliotis, I
(25:26):
guess.
Ann Vileisis (25:27):
Yeah, it actually, haliotis actually means "sea
ear." And it came from -- it wasnamed by Aristotle, because the
abalone of the Mediterranean aresmaller and sort of the size and
shape of a human ear. So that'swhere it comes from -- sea ear,
you know. I came to writingabout abalone in some ways, it
(25:48):
was the thread went fromwetlands, where I actually
learned initially aboutshellfish in estuaries that were
destroyed. When wetlands weredestroyed, I became interested
in that food environmentconnection there, wrote about
that connection in KitchenLiteracy. But I realized in
Kitchen Literacy that animalsthat are wild foods are really
(26:09):
particularly vulnerable for thatreason -- that we can love them
to death. And so to get back toyour earlier question, this is
now actually an endangeredspecies too, several of them are
endangered species. There areseven species on the West Coast.
Brian Czech (26:23):
Right. Well, in those uses that were one of the
reasons abalone was loved todeath, what would you say is the
most prominent uses? Food,tools, ornaments?
Ann Vileisis (26:35):
Well, through time, you know, indigenous
people are thought to have cometo the West Coast at least 13-
to 15,000 years ago. And so, atleast 6,000 years ago, or more
they would, the shells were usedas tools and ornaments and for
ceremonial purposes -- really awonderful cultural use of an
animal and material in ways thatwe can barely, you know,
(26:59):
imagine. It was reallyinteresting to learn about that.
But they were also used forsubsistence, and they became one
of the West Coast first globalcommodities in the mid-19th
century, at the time of the GoldRush. When immigrants from Asia
came over across the Pacific anddiscovered so many abundant
(27:20):
abalone, it kickstarted a globaltrade for this animal, and its
meat and shells.
Brian Czech (27:27):
Did you find evidence that it was essentially
a form of proto money likewampum in the for the Eastern
tribes, prior to the Europeansettlement out there?
Ann Vileisis (27:38):
Yeah, you know, it's very interesting that you
asked that question. Becausethere's a lot of interesting
writing about shell money, andabalone was definitely used for
exchange, but it had a specialand different kind of meaning
because of that brilliant,unique iridescence. And the fact
that it was actually probablysomewhat rare of an animal at
(28:02):
different times through history.
It was cherished and held invery high esteem. And so rather
than just using it as like, youknow, currency, it had a deeper
meaning. It was used, forexample, to resolve big
conflicts or was used tosymbolize larger meanings in a
gift exchange. So it's a littlebit different, I think, than
(28:22):
just currency.
Brian Czech (28:25):
Right. Well, I'm dying to ask you, Ann, what's
your next book about?
Ann Vileisis (28:30):
Oh, my gosh, brand. I don't have a good
answer for that yet, because I'mstill out and about talking
about my Abalone book andgetting it out into the world.
But I do have some ideas. I'minterested in maybe doing some
writing about the salmon of thePacific Northwest, which is
where I live and that have asimilar story to abalone in
terms of being an animal that isvery cherished and cared about
(28:54):
and yet is really facingdifficult times. I find myself
being fascinated to write andstudy about wildlife and the
challenges we have in trying tohelp conserve these animals and
our kindred creatures into thefuture, especially in the face
of climate crisis challenges.
Brian Czech (29:13):
What about sort of some of the ancient and -- well
not ancient entirely, I mean,some of the Pacific Northwest
tribes still have a bit of aPotlatch culture and so on that
interface with food productionand distribution is -- maybe not
really -- the highlight ofPotlatch culture, but you take
(29:33):
an interest in sort of the thecultural aspects of food
production in the Northwest.
Ann Vileisis (29:39):
You know, I have not researched that extensively
yet myself, but I do know wehave a pretty vibrant and
growing interest, I think, onthe West Coast in general,
understanding the need torestore indigenous food systems
as a way of helping to restorecultural justice and such things
with tribal nations. So, I thinkthose are things that are very
(30:02):
interesting, and I look forwardto learning more about them.
Brian Czech (30:06):
Well, whatever that next book is about, I'm really
looking forward to it. And Ann,it's been a great pleasure
talking with you today, andwe'll look forward to having you
back on the show for a deeperdive into one or two or three or
four of these books.
Ann Vileisis (30:21):
Thank you so much, Brian. It would be fun to talk
more with you about, you know,the steady stater perspective on
some of these stories that I'vewritten about. So thanks so much
for the opportunity to talk withyou today.
Brian Czech (30:49):
Well folks, that about wraps 'er up. We've been
talking with Ann Vileisis,environmental historian and
impeccable author. If you askedme, she set the standard for
crystally clear, flawlesslylogical, policy-relevant and yet
entertaining environmentalnon-fiction. Go get one of her
books. I'm going to recommend,Discovering the Unknown
(31:11):
Landscape to start with, and I'mguessing you want to read the
other two as well. I'm BrianCzech, and you've been listening
to The Steady Stater podcast.
See you next time!
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