August 12, 2025 • 33 mins
Law firm partnerships can destroy your practice - or build an empire. Here's how Michelle O'Neil turned her biggest courtroom rival into her business partner and grew to 15+ attorneys.
Michelle reveals how she escaped solo practice burnout by partnering with her former courtroom enemy to build OW Lawyers into a statewide firm.
Here's the brutal truth: Michelle felt like Atlas carrying the world on her shoulders. Her solution? Team up with the attorney who fought her tooth and nail in court. Ten years later, they're crushing it.
Tyler Dolph also knows partnerships work since they used these same principles to grow Sterling Lawyers to $17M.
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📝 Schedule a FREE Family Law Firm Audit: rocketclicks.com/schedule-a-family-law-quick-audit
📄 CHAPTERS
0:00 - OW Lawyers Partnership Story: From Opposing Counsel to Business Partners
3:22 - Michelle's Solo Practice Burnout: The Atlas Problem Every Firm Owner Faces 5:59 - The Coffee Meeting That Started a 15-Attorney Firm
7:16 - Why Everyone Bet Against Their Partnership (And Lost)
11:32 - The Ball on the Table: Michelle's Conflict Resolution System
15:26 - Passion Scale Method: How OW Lawyers Makes Tough Decisions
22:55 - Fifth Move Thinking: Michelle's Chess Strategy for Law Firm Growth
27:14 - Bridge Building: How Michelle Left Every Job the Right Way
----------------------
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Michelle started OW Law with an opposing counsel
from a case she was on, whofought tooth and nail with her
and did an amazing job, thatthey eventually started their
own law firm and have grown itto over 15 attorneys.
Her story is amazing.
(00:20):
My name is Tyler Dolph.
I am the CEO of our agency thatworks exclusively with family
law firms, called Rocket Clicks,and we also own and operate our
own law firm that has over 30attorneys, called Sterling
Lawyers.
Today I interview Michelle.
Michelle started OW Law withher business partner.
(00:44):
Michelle started OW Law withher business partner.
She has incredible nuggets toshare as it relates to being a
business partner, growing a lawfirm to a very large size, and
shares some great leadershipwisdom with us.
I really hope you enjoy it,michelle.
Thank you so much for beingwith us today.
It's great to see you.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I appreciate it, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Absolutely.
Give us a little backgroundintroduction to you and your
firm and then I'd love to hearthe origin story as well.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Well, I'm Michelle O'Neill.
I'm one of the two shareholdersof O'Neill Wysocki, now known
as OW Lawyers.
We did go through a trademarkand branding that rolled out in
January of this year, so aboutalmost six months ago.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
It's beautiful, by the way.
I love the owl.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Thank you, thank you.
So we've had the owl in placefor all 10 years that we've been
in business.
But in Texas a couple of yearsago they passed a new law that
allowed us to brand law firmsinstead of using partner names
only.
So when they passed that newlaw, we went ahead and branded
(01:52):
the name that we're known foracross the state, which is Owl
Lawyers, and we trademarked that, as well as our tagline, which
is the wise choice that goeswith our OWL branding and our
logo.
And then in January, we choseto go ahead and roll out the new
branding.
So the firm name is stillofficially O'Neill Wysocki PC,
(02:16):
but we now use the trademarkname DBA OWL Lawyers with the
registered trademark.
So Michael and I are the twoowners of the firm and we've
been together now, for it'll be10 years June the 1st.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Thank you.
Right now we're solely focusedon family law, although part of
the rebrand is we rebranded fromsolely family law to trial law
with the intent that we areplanning to expand our offerings
into some civil lit andbusiness lit, because they do
mesh with really the clientelebase that we have.
(02:56):
So that's kind of our futuregrowth plan.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Very cool.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Yeah, so that's you know.
That's basically us.
We are a statewide firm allacross Texas.
We have a brand that is knownthroughout Texas, somewhat
national also, but we are Texaslawyers, so we practice in Texas
.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Love it.
How did you get your start,Michelle?
Give us a little background onyou little background on you.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Well, I'm a 30-something year lawyer.
We don't have to talk aboutsomething, We'll just use a plus
sign.
But yeah, I mean I'm a 30-yearlawyer and Michael, I think, is
approaching his 20th year.
So you know, we wereexperienced lawyers.
Whenever we got together, I hadhad my own firm I guess what you
(03:42):
call a solo firm with a coupleof associates, and I kind of
burnt out on that.
I felt like I was Atlas, justcarrying the world around on my
shoulders and all of myemployees and all of their
children and being solelyresponsible for everything and
everybody and not really havingany support system to help me
(04:02):
carry everybody's world.
And I'd burn out on that andclosed my firm and left and gone
to work for another, a deepcarpet civil law firm, and that
you know as what happens.
You know, once you've kind ofhad a taste of working for
yourself, you kind of almostcan't go back to working for
(04:23):
somebody else.
That's really hard.
So that wasn't really thesolution for me either, and
Michael was working for anotherfirm and really had a desire to
be out on his own as well.
So we had what we felt was asimilarity of perspectives in
marketing.
Mine was more internet-based.
(04:44):
His was a little bit morerelationship, was more
internet-based, His was a littlebit more relationship and print
marketing-based.
But a similar concept andapproach to marketing from a
perspective of its importance inthe law firm.
You probably know this andmaybe your viewers do, but back
in the day law firm marketingwas not a thing and most lawyers
(05:07):
your pages.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
That was it.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah, I mean, most lawyers didn't think that that
was ethical for lawyers tomarket themselves.
But Michael and I really hadyou know, both independently a
different view of that and sowhenever we got together we both
had a similarity of viewpoint.
Whenever we first startedhaving discussions about forming
the firm, you know we had had acase against each other.
(05:31):
We didn't really mesh well onthe case.
I won, but we fought like catsand dogs, battled it out and
duped it out and, I think,formed a real foundation of
respect for each other becauseof how we duped it out on the
case.
Like you know, like you wouldwith any adversary in any fight,
(05:54):
when you really have a worthyopponent, you have that mutual
respect for each other from justthe battle.
And we did definitely have thatmutual respect based on the
battle that we had over a verycontested case.
So I wouldn't say that it waslike we were buddies, but we had
(06:16):
a couple of mutual friends thatsuggested hey, he's not real
happy with his situation, you'renot real happy with yours, but
you'll have so much similaritiesthat you really ought to have a
conversation.
And I think he and I both werekind nah, I don't think that's a
good idea and they're like yeah, it is, just don't have it
(06:40):
happen and so we both agreed tohave coffee and have a
conversation and realized thatit really was a good idea when
we got together and we formedthe firm.
I think that the family lawcommunity around the Dallas area
that knew both of usindependently and knew both of
(07:00):
us as advocates and gladiatorsin the courtroom I think they
all had an over-under bet goingon as to how long it would take
till it combusted.
The longest that anybody gaveus on their over-under was about
a year.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
You crushed it.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
And 10 years later they all lost their bets.
So none of them have ever paidme off for that, but they all
lost their bets.
So they none of them have everpaid me off for that, but but
they all lost their bets on howlong it would last.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Incredible Like what an amazing opportunity to to
have this adversary in thecourtroom and then turn them
into a business partner.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I want to say you know that's one of the lessons,
right?
I mean you know that's one ofthe lessons for anybody out
there that's looking at.
You know, being an entrepreneurgoing into whether it's a law
practice or really any businessis, you have to turn them into
opportunities.
You have to see opportunity inyour obstacles.
That's 100% whatentrepreneurship is about,
whether it's a law firm or anyother business.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Well said.
And to see that opportunity, tosee that adversary as an
opportunity, I think issomething really difficult for a
lot of people because theycould immediately just be turned
off like, oh, I don't want anypart of that, but you saw it as,
hey, wait, he's actually reallygood and right, but that's, but
that's a hundred percent whatyou should be looking for.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Like you don't want to look for your yes men, like
you don't want to look forpeople that are just like you,
you have to look for people thatare going to help you propel
your growth and to propel yourgrowth you can't be having
people that are the same as you,that are sitting here in your
comfort zone.
You know, encouraging yourcomfort zone, you have to have
(08:55):
people around you, surroundyourself with people that level
you up.
And you know, and for Michaeland I, you know we leveled each
other up in the arena, right inthe competition arena.
You know we were battling itout, duking it out.
You know, from the lawyerperspective I mean, if there's
any non-lawyers out there, thatsounds so adversarial.
(09:17):
And you know, from the lawyerperspective, like that's what we
do.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Part of the deal.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
It's literally what we do is duke it out in the
courtroom, but you know, weshake hands kind of like what
was the cartoon You're probablytoo young for that, but the
cartoon, the Roadrunner and Samthe Sheepdog, you know and they
would clock in and then do theirjob.
You know, which was to chaseeach other around all day and
fight, which was to chase eachother around all day and fight,
(09:46):
and then at the end of the dayor at lunch they'd clock out and
eat lunch together and thenthey'd clock back in and fight
and then they'd clock out andshake hands and go home to their
families.
But you've got to surroundyourself with people that are
going to help you level up, andif you're looking at going to
business with yourself or foryourself, your choices are
(10:06):
literally be an entrepreneur onyour own.
So then you have to do it all.
You have to, you know, wear allthe hats in the business the HR
hat, the finance hat, theoperations hat, the marketing
hat, the sales hat, theleadership hat, like all the
hats plus all the hats you wearat home.
Hat the leadership hat, likeall the hats plus all the hats
(10:28):
you wear at home.
Or you can look around and finda law partner.
You know somebody to partnerwith you in your entrepreneurial
journey whether it's law firmor any other entrepreneurial
journey, and you know, findsomebody that's going to help
you carry the load.
Like I said, I felt like Atlaswith all the load.
So find somebody who's going togive not 50%, 100%.
(10:48):
You give 100% and you give 100%and both of you help carry the
load and help each other levelup.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Well said.
I want to dive into that alittle bit because I think it's
so important.
Like practically what you'resaying, everyone's like yeah,
sure, that makes sense, but talkabout the in the trenches.
You know you're you're startinga business with someone who you
don't know very well.
You have to build arelationship over time.
There's going to be conflict,there's going to be different
points of view.
How did you manage to do thatover the last 10 years, to build
(11:20):
a level of of respect andconversation, knowing that you
want to be partners, becauseyou're going to push back
against each other.
You're going to make each otherbetter.
But that's not easy, right?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Well, I think, like any relationship I mean a
business relationship, apersonal relationship, a client
relationship it's all aboutcommunication and and that's
just how we approached it wejust agreed that we were going
to communicate and you knowyou've got to leave your
emotions out of it.
You know you've got to have acommunication skill and an
(11:55):
emotional skill level that youcan say you know, this is a
business discussion, we're goingto have a business discussion,
we're not going to get emotionalabout it, I'm not going to get
all my feelings involved.
You know, and we're going tokeep this on the level that you
know, we can have a grown updiscussion, we can have this.
(12:15):
You know, whatever the problemis, see the problem as
independent of the emotion andlook at it like we're
collaborating together to solvewhatever the problem is.
So, you know, I think it justcomes down to every relationship
that you have, whether it'syour clients, your opposing
counsel, your judge, your lawpartner, your at-home partner
(12:38):
All of those are relationshipsand it's just relationship
management which comes down tocommunication 100%.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
I think one thing we say around here is attack the
issue, not the person.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Absolutely 100%.
That's absolutely 100%.
It's all about building thatrapport and that collaboration
with the person to deal with theissue.
I think of it in my mind.
I always think of it like theball is sitting on the table and
the ball is the problem.
I try not to use the wordproblem, but that's like how we
(13:10):
would describe it.
But the ball is the issue,whether it's the issue that
needs to be solved in the case,or whether it's the issue that
needs to be solved betweenbusiness partners, or whether
it's the issue that needs to besolved between at home partners.
The ball is the issue and theissue sits on the table.
It's not in my lap, it's not inyour lap.
It's sitting on the table, it'sin the neutral position.
(13:32):
And then we both work, you know, to collaborate to solve the
issue.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
That's a great analogy.
What about if you're in a roomwith your other attorneys and
there's four different opinions?
Does that still work?
Maybe when there's notconsensus?
Speaker 2 (13:52):
You know the way that Michael and I've always
approached it.
Of course we're just two people.
You know the way that Michaeland I've always approached it.
Of course we're just two people, we aren't four.
But we just always said that wearen't going to move forward if
we're not 100% in alignment.
And you know, and there havebeen times where he felt
strongly about a decision andI'd give him my 1%, you know,
like I may not have felt superstrongly about something, but he
(14:14):
did, and I'd say, ok, well, I'mgoing to relent because you
feel that strongly.
Or I'd feel strongly aboutsomething and he'd say, okay,
well, I'll relent, but if wedidn't have that alignment, we
didn't move forward until we did.
So that's you know.
I think, whether it's two peopleor four people, I think that's
where you have to be and youjust have to keep working the
(14:36):
problem.
Maybe you have to look at itfrom a different perspective.
You're not looking at theproblem the right way.
You're locked into too much onone view of each person, and so
maybe you need to see adifferent facet of the problem
and get creative.
But yeah, I still think that ifyou just don't have consensus,
(15:02):
you just need more viewpoints.
You need to brainstorm more.
You haven't looked at the issueenough.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
I totally agree.
Something that we found to bereally effective is sometimes
titles or ownership king in theway.
And you know, know, the teamwho you rely on for feedback
will go with you because theythink you're really passionate
or you talk with enthusiasm butreally you may not be, and so we
use like a number system onthis and I'm like, well, I'm a
(15:36):
three on this, I don't reallycare, you know, I'm not, I'm not
going to die on this hill, andso if you're a 10 and you
believe in it, like you shouldgo for it because this is
something that you are verypassionate about and you believe
in strongly and I'm a three.
So by by naming that emotion orthat, that number as it relates
to the passion, it really helpsus move through those
effectively.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Sure, sure.
I mean you know, and at theother side of that that thing,
whatever that is you'repassionate about, you also have
to be prepared that if itdoesn't work out like you also
have to take the ownership forthat.
If you were a 10 on thatpassion scale that you really
wanted to do this thing.
But then, it doesn't.
It doesn't work out Like you gotto own that.
(16:17):
You know the other peoplemight've been right about it and
you were wrong.
And so the next time you knowthat you're a 10 on a passion
scale and you're getting somepushback on something, you know
you may have to look at itdifferently or maybe call in a
third party to kind of breakthat tie or something because
your, your perspective may notbe.
(16:37):
You know it may not be where itneeds to be.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
So you know you've also got to own your stuff when
you have that position too 100%,and I think a lot of what we're
talking about, michelle, isleadership and expansion, and
you know a lot of law firms arein that position you were in in
your solo firm, where theycontrol everything.
They have a difficult timeletting go of the branch and
(17:01):
delegating or relegating controlto other partners or other
attorneys.
How did you work through that?
How were you able to recognize,oh my gosh, the whole world is
on my shoulders.
I have to change, because I'mthe problem, like I am the issue
as to why I can't expand orhave this lifestyle that I'm
(17:22):
looking for.
Talk us through, like, whatchanged in you and how were you
able to create a great you knowlarge firm that you have now?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
I think that you always have to be learning.
You can't ever stop learning.
I believe that you can learnsomething from literally anybody
that you come across.
You can learn something fromthe janitor of your building.
You can learn something fromthe podcasts of CEOs or, like
your podcasts, of other law firmleaders.
You can literally learnsomething from everybody that
(18:01):
you come across.
They have something to teachyou.
And as long as you approachlife from that humility
standpoint and don't ever get to, as my mama would say, too big
for your britches then you keepgrowing and you keep learning,
then you keep growing and youkeep learning.
And entrepreneurship,especially solopreneurship, is
one of the hardest jobs in theworld.
(18:25):
Now it's also the thing thatcarries our country and carries
our economy.
But it is the hardest thingbecause you are literally atlas
with the entire world of yourstaff, your employees in your
business and, in some ways, theeconomy of our country on your
shoulders.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
And it's lonely.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
And it's lonely, oh my gosh.
I heard an interview I don'tknow if you follow Success Story
with Scott Clary, but a reallygood podcast to follow if you're
an entrepreneur and in business.
But he interviewed GrantCardone this week and I'm a big
Grant Cardone fan and I do a lotof sales, sales and marketing
(19:04):
and leadership work with him andthey're good friends of mine.
He and Elena are good friendsof mine.
But Scott Clary interviewedGrant Cardone and one of the
clips he released this weekGrant Cardone literally said
that.
He said my job is one of theloneliest jobs in the world and
you remember he's not asolopreneur.
He said my job ultimately is Ihave to make the decision and
(19:28):
sometimes all the people that Isurround myself my business
partners, my wife or whateverlike sometimes I have to make
the call and people don't agreewith the call I make, but I have
to make it.
Ultimately it's my decision andsometimes that's lonely because
they don't agree with me andthey push back on me and I still
(19:49):
have to be the one that makesthe call and lives with that
decision.
So you know, that's not anydifferent for billionaire Grant
Cardone in his billion dollar Idon't know how many companies he
owns now 10 or however many,we'll say 10 just to be a round
number.
But you know that's not anydifferent for billionaire Grant
Cardone than it is for asolopreneur running a small law
(20:12):
firm or a small, you know momshop while she's taking care of
her kiddos.
It is lonely at the top.
You've got to make the calls.
You've got to have theconfidence in yourself and the
leadership abilities to makethose hard, tough decisions.
It may be firing a staff membertoday, I mean, those are always
(20:32):
for me the hardest things to do.
Even if they deserve it, evenif you know that it's the right
decision, it's still toughbecause it has ripple effects.
So you know it's lonely butyou've got to make the tough
calls.
But that's ultimately your job.
Your job as an entrepreneur isto make the tough calls.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
And, I think, being going from a solopreneur to then
having the success that you'vehad and reflecting back on those
moments, it's easy to see someof those key decisions and key
calls that you've made.
If I'm a solopreneur and I'mfrustrated because I thought,
hey, I'm gonna be my own boss, Iam gonna create my own future,
(21:16):
but now I'm working 80 hours aweek, I never see my kids, what
are some of those decisions orsome of those obstacles that
have to get out of the way inorder for that firm owner to be
able to get closer to that dream?
Speaker 2 (21:31):
You know?
Look, my mama told me nobodyever promised you a rose garden.
So being an entrepreneur, lawpractice or business, it's not
going to be easy.
If you think you can do thisand work 20 hours a week and
make all the money, you're wrong.
(21:53):
That's not how this works.
You know, being an entrepreneur, owning your own law firm
whether it's a solopreneur shopor whether it's a big law firm
like mine or law firms that areeven bigger than mine you know
that's not how it works.
I work more than anybodyoutside that door.
I work more hours than anybodythat walks outside that door,
(22:15):
anybody that is on my payroll oron my staff.
They don't outwork me.
I bill more hours.
I non-bill more hours.
I spend more admin time.
When I wake up in the morning,I think about this place.
When I go to sleep at night, Ithink about this place.
When I wake up at 2 am, youknow I think about this place
(22:38):
and so does my partner.
So it's not easy.
You ask me, you know, what aresome strategies that a young
person who wants to build a lawfirm can implement?
I believe in fifth move thinking.
That's a chess reference, butand interestingly, I actually
don't play chess with chesspieces.
(22:59):
I play chess with law firms andentrepreneurship and cases,
case management.
But I implement what I callfifth move thinking, which means
you know you have to make adecision.
So in any decision you make thenext decision and then you look
at what are the ripple effectsthat are going to happen from
that decision and then what'sthe next thing that's going to
(23:23):
happen, what's the counter movethat the other side is going to
have.
So your opponent, you knowwhatever if it's a case, or you
know what is the counter attackgoing to be, what's the
long-term effect of the decision.
And then is your perspectivebuilt on winning the war, not
(23:44):
the battle.
You know you can lose a battlebut win a war.
So if it's a case decision,like if you're analyzing
strategy to win a case, samefifth move thinking applies.
But if you're building a lawfirm, same fifth move thinking
applies.
If you're making an HR decision,the same fifth move thinking
applies.
If you're making an HR decision, the same fifth move thinking
applies.
(24:05):
And ultimately, all of thatboils down to you make the
long-term decision, not theshort-term decision.
But in the analysis of how tomake the long-term decision,
those are the factors you lookat you make the next decision
because you have to make quickdecisions.
You can't sit around and thinkabout it forever.
You look at those rippleeffects.
(24:25):
You look at what's thatcounterattack going to be,
what's the long-term effect, andare you ultimately hitting your
target, which is to win the war.
What is the war you're tryingto win, what is the target
you're trying to hit, and areyou accomplishing that target as
opposed to your short-termgoals?
Speaker 1 (24:44):
That reference is so much better than the one I use,
which is for the longest time.
I'm like I got to think ofsomething else.
But we call it like you have tostep over a few wounded
soldiers to take out the sniperright.
And you got to be willing to dothat because if you're just
fighting every single firethat's in front of you, you're
never going to realize thesource of the fire.
You're never going to get tothe source.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Well and right.
I mean, that's a strategicanalysis too, right?
What you're saying is that youhave to make sacrifices and in
any business or any quoteunquote battle, whether that's a
case, whether that'sentrepreneurship you know any
struggle that you're in, if it'sa relationship, even like
(25:29):
there's going to be short termsacrifices to accomplish the
long term goal.
And that's just strategicthinking.
So you know, when you'rethinking about going into
business for yourself, you haveto focus on that strategic
thinking.
And where you want to be.
You know.
I say that everything I learnedabout life I learned from my
(25:50):
mama, but everything I learnedabout business I learned from my
daddy.
And you know my daddy would sayif you don't know where you're
going, how are you going to knowif you get there?
And that's just another way ofputting it that you have to have
strategic thinking.
You have to set your long rangegoals, you have to know what
war you want to win and then youhave to lay your battle plan.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
So good, it's so strong.
I want to end on just a fewadditional pieces of advice for
the solopreneur, for the lawyerwho's at a big firm, who's
thinking about going out ontheir own.
You've given us so many nuggetstoday, michelle, and I'm so
(26:33):
grateful for them.
Is there anything else that youcan share with our audience?
As it relates to like, hey, howdo you leave that big firm?
How do you?
What are the steps or thingsthat you need to think about
before going out on your own?
One thing that we hear often isthe hey, there's really not any
business classes in law school.
There's no.
Here's how.
Oh, by the way, you have tomake payroll and you got to pay
(26:57):
for rent and you know all thesedifferent things.
From your perspective, what arethe couple of things that
someone should think about?
Speaker 2 (27:03):
So, yeah, I mean number one you got to have a
plan so you know, before youever quit this is another thing
my daddy taught me like, quityour job on your own time, not
on somebody else's time.
So you got to have a plan thatwhen you start thinking about,
you know that you want to go doyour own thing.
You got to start planning inadvance, making connections,
(27:27):
networking.
Build your network.
Your network is your net worth.
That's a Grant Cardonism.
So start building thatconnections list and taking
those lunches.
And you know, thinking through,you know when I do this, I'm
going to need to have thesepeople lined up that you're not
going to lunch and telling themI'm about to go do my thing.
(27:48):
You know, don't do that, justbuild those relationships.
It's all about relationships.
So build your relationships upso that when it comes time to
pull your trigger, then you'vegot those relationships and then
you can go have thoseconversations.
So, number one start gettingyour plan together way in
advance.
Part of that plan is you mayneed to go take some business
(28:09):
classes so that you know how toset up and structure a business.
You may need to go take somesales and marketing classes and,
like I said I'm a big GrantCardone fan.
There's plenty of ways you cando that through Cardone training
through Cardone University.
There's plenty of ways you cando that through Cardone training
through Cardone University.
He has all of his stuff online.
You can subscribe to CardoneUniversity online and do it all
(28:33):
in the comfort of your own home.
You can stick a little AirPodin your ear and do it while
you're doing something else andlearn about sales and marketing
and structures and all sorts ofthings that can help you.
Even though it's businesstraining, it can help you learn
how to do sales and marketing,even in a law firm.
So train yourself before youever need that information.
(28:56):
Then the other thing I wouldtell a young lawyer wanting to
do that is don't burn bridges,and I think this has been so
important in my history.
We tend to let our emotions getthe better of us.
Whatever that struggle is thatyou're having in your firm right
now that is frustrating youabout your current scenario,
(29:16):
frustrating you about yourcurrent situation.
Set those emotions aside andremember your big picture,
because you don't want to burnthat bridge.
You know it's real easy in themoment, in the frustration,
whatever that is, that you canget angry, you can get mad, you
can get, you know, emotionalabout it and let that bubble up
(29:38):
and boil up and you've just gotto take a deep breath and keep
your perspective and keep yourhead about you and not your
heart and let that die down andremember the war, not the battle
that you're trying to work atthat moment.
And remember your strategybecause if you burn that bridge,
it's going to follow you.
So I've been really lucky overmy career Maybe not, maybe
(30:01):
luck's not the right word for itI've been very strategic that
every time I left a job, youknow I was very cognizant to
overperform the job.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
All the way to the end.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Walking out the door.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
You know I overperformed my fiduciary duty
to them.
I overperformed my fiduciaryduty to them.
I overperformed still bringingin cases.
I overperformed billing hoursall the way up to the day the
door hit my ass on the way out.
So I hope I-.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Oh no, it's all good.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
So you know, the day that I walked out the door, I
still overperformed so thatnobody could ever critique the
way that I left, so thateverybody would always say, at
the end, michelle still did theright thing.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
So big.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Yeah, and so then my integrity was still in place
even as I was exiting, and Ithink that really has served me
well.
I still consider these men thatI worked for as friends and
mentors, and even as Michael andI started this firm, one of the
men that actually put ustogether was a gentleman that we
(31:17):
both had worked for.
Michael was working for him atthe time and I had previously
worked for him and exited hisfirm.
So you know so he was actuallya mentor to both of us, bringing
us together, knowing us verywell, and you know so, firms
that I have exited have ended upbeing mentors to me as I've
grown, and you know just in mypractice and in my career.
(31:40):
So just don't ever burn thosebridges.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
And well, that is a piece of advice that we don't
give out enough, becauserelationships end, jobs end, all
the things, and they're goingto remember those last few
moments and if you don't end,well that it's going to tarnish
anything that you did while youwere there.
Tarnish anything that you didwhile you were there.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
A hundred percent.
You know the statistics forbusinesses.
You know businesses fail andnot.
You know law firm is a business.
So the statistics for businessfailure are high and you know if
a business, whether it's a lawfirm or otherwise, makes it
three to five years it's kind oflike a marriage that makes it
(32:29):
seven years You're beating theodds.
You know and and and.
So if you're, if you're goinginto business for yourself and
you make it three to five yearslike you're beating the odds,
but the chances are you won't,so you've got to fight for it to
beat the odds.
But if you don't, you've got tohedge your bets.
You don't want to burn thosebridges.
You got to keep thoserelationships intact, just in
case you ever need to go revisitthem.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
So well said, michelle.
I wish we had three hourstogether because you have
provided so much just amazingnuggets for our audience and for
myself.
I'm so grateful for you and thetime we were able to spend, and
hope that you will come backand continue to share with us.
Thank you so much for you andthe time we were able to spend,
and hope that you will come backand continue to share with us.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
If you enjoyed this amazing interview with Michelle,
make sure to check out theother interviews we've done.
We love this interview seriesand it gives us an opportunity
to learn and grow from other lawfirm owners in our space doing
amazing things.
There's one that you shouldcheck out right here.
Michelle started OW Law with an opposing counsel
from a case she was on, whofought tooth and nail with her
and did an amazing job, thatthey eventually started their
own law firm and have grown itto over 15 attorneys.
Her story is amazing.
(00:20):
My name is Tyler Dolph.
I am the CEO of our agency thatworks exclusively with family
law firms, called Rocket Clicks,and we also own and operate our
own law firm that has over 30attorneys, called Sterling
Lawyers.
Today I interview Michelle.
Michelle started OW Law withher business partner.
(00:44):
Michelle started OW Law withher business partner.
She has incredible nuggets toshare as it relates to being a
business partner, growing a lawfirm to a very large size, and
shares some great leadershipwisdom with us.
I really hope you enjoy it,michelle.
Thank you so much for beingwith us today.
It's great to see you.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I appreciate it, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Absolutely.
Give us a little backgroundintroduction to you and your
firm and then I'd love to hearthe origin story as well.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Well, I'm Michelle O'Neill.
I'm one of the two shareholdersof O'Neill Wysocki, now known
as OW Lawyers.
We did go through a trademarkand branding that rolled out in
January of this year, so aboutalmost six months ago.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
It's beautiful, by the way.
I love the owl.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Thank you, thank you.
So we've had the owl in placefor all 10 years that we've been
in business.
But in Texas a couple of yearsago they passed a new law that
allowed us to brand law firmsinstead of using partner names
only.
So when they passed that newlaw, we went ahead and branded
(01:52):
the name that we're known foracross the state, which is Owl
Lawyers, and we trademarked that, as well as our tagline, which
is the wise choice that goeswith our OWL branding and our
logo.
And then in January, we choseto go ahead and roll out the new
branding.
So the firm name is stillofficially O'Neill Wysocki PC,
(02:16):
but we now use the trademarkname DBA OWL Lawyers with the
registered trademark.
So Michael and I are the twoowners of the firm and we've
been together now, for it'll be10 years June the 1st.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Thank you.
Right now we're solely focusedon family law, although part of
the rebrand is we rebranded fromsolely family law to trial law
with the intent that we areplanning to expand our offerings
into some civil lit andbusiness lit, because they do
mesh with really the clientelebase that we have.
(02:56):
So that's kind of our futuregrowth plan.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Very cool.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Yeah, so that's you know.
That's basically us.
We are a statewide firm allacross Texas.
We have a brand that is knownthroughout Texas, somewhat
national also, but we are Texaslawyers, so we practice in Texas
.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Love it.
How did you get your start,Michelle?
Give us a little background onyou little background on you.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Well, I'm a 30-something year lawyer.
We don't have to talk aboutsomething, We'll just use a plus
sign.
But yeah, I mean I'm a 30-yearlawyer and Michael, I think, is
approaching his 20th year.
So you know, we wereexperienced lawyers.
Whenever we got together, I hadhad my own firm I guess what you
(03:42):
call a solo firm with a coupleof associates, and I kind of
burnt out on that.
I felt like I was Atlas, justcarrying the world around on my
shoulders and all of myemployees and all of their
children and being solelyresponsible for everything and
everybody and not really havingany support system to help me
(04:02):
carry everybody's world.
And I'd burn out on that andclosed my firm and left and gone
to work for another, a deepcarpet civil law firm, and that
you know as what happens.
You know, once you've kind ofhad a taste of working for
yourself, you kind of almostcan't go back to working for
(04:23):
somebody else.
That's really hard.
So that wasn't really thesolution for me either, and
Michael was working for anotherfirm and really had a desire to
be out on his own as well.
So we had what we felt was asimilarity of perspectives in
marketing.
Mine was more internet-based.
(04:44):
His was a little bit morerelationship, was more
internet-based, His was a littlebit more relationship and print
marketing-based.
But a similar concept andapproach to marketing from a
perspective of its importance inthe law firm.
You probably know this andmaybe your viewers do, but back
in the day law firm marketingwas not a thing and most lawyers
(05:07):
your pages.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
That was it.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah, I mean, most lawyers didn't think that that
was ethical for lawyers tomarket themselves.
But Michael and I really hadyou know, both independently a
different view of that and sowhenever we got together we both
had a similarity of viewpoint.
Whenever we first startedhaving discussions about forming
the firm, you know we had had acase against each other.
(05:31):
We didn't really mesh well onthe case.
I won, but we fought like catsand dogs, battled it out and
duped it out and, I think,formed a real foundation of
respect for each other becauseof how we duped it out on the
case.
Like you know, like you wouldwith any adversary in any fight,
(05:54):
when you really have a worthyopponent, you have that mutual
respect for each other from justthe battle.
And we did definitely have thatmutual respect based on the
battle that we had over a verycontested case.
So I wouldn't say that it waslike we were buddies, but we had
(06:16):
a couple of mutual friends thatsuggested hey, he's not real
happy with his situation, you'renot real happy with yours, but
you'll have so much similaritiesthat you really ought to have a
conversation.
And I think he and I both werekind nah, I don't think that's a
good idea and they're like yeah, it is, just don't have it
(06:40):
happen and so we both agreed tohave coffee and have a
conversation and realized thatit really was a good idea when
we got together and we formedthe firm.
I think that the family lawcommunity around the Dallas area
that knew both of usindependently and knew both of
(07:00):
us as advocates and gladiatorsin the courtroom I think they
all had an over-under bet goingon as to how long it would take
till it combusted.
The longest that anybody gaveus on their over-under was about
a year.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
You crushed it.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
And 10 years later they all lost their bets.
So none of them have ever paidme off for that, but they all
lost their bets.
So they none of them have everpaid me off for that, but but
they all lost their bets on howlong it would last.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Incredible Like what an amazing opportunity to to
have this adversary in thecourtroom and then turn them
into a business partner.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I want to say you know that's one of the lessons,
right?
I mean you know that's one ofthe lessons for anybody out
there that's looking at.
You know, being an entrepreneurgoing into whether it's a law
practice or really any businessis, you have to turn them into
opportunities.
You have to see opportunity inyour obstacles.
That's 100% whatentrepreneurship is about,
whether it's a law firm or anyother business.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Well said.
And to see that opportunity, tosee that adversary as an
opportunity, I think issomething really difficult for a
lot of people because theycould immediately just be turned
off like, oh, I don't want anypart of that, but you saw it as,
hey, wait, he's actually reallygood and right, but that's, but
that's a hundred percent whatyou should be looking for.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Like you don't want to look for your yes men, like
you don't want to look forpeople that are just like you,
you have to look for people thatare going to help you propel
your growth and to propel yourgrowth you can't be having
people that are the same as you,that are sitting here in your
comfort zone.
You know, encouraging yourcomfort zone, you have to have
(08:55):
people around you, surroundyourself with people that level
you up.
And you know, and for Michaeland I, you know we leveled each
other up in the arena, right inthe competition arena.
You know we were battling itout, duking it out.
You know, from the lawyerperspective I mean, if there's
any non-lawyers out there, thatsounds so adversarial.
(09:17):
And you know, from the lawyerperspective, like that's what we
do.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Part of the deal.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
It's literally what we do is duke it out in the
courtroom, but you know, weshake hands kind of like what
was the cartoon You're probablytoo young for that, but the
cartoon, the Roadrunner and Samthe Sheepdog, you know and they
would clock in and then do theirjob.
You know, which was to chaseeach other around all day and
fight, which was to chase eachother around all day and fight,
(09:46):
and then at the end of the dayor at lunch they'd clock out and
eat lunch together and thenthey'd clock back in and fight
and then they'd clock out andshake hands and go home to their
families.
But you've got to surroundyourself with people that are
going to help you level up, andif you're looking at going to
business with yourself or foryourself, your choices are
(10:06):
literally be an entrepreneur onyour own.
So then you have to do it all.
You have to, you know, wear allthe hats in the business the HR
hat, the finance hat, theoperations hat, the marketing
hat, the sales hat, theleadership hat, like all the
hats plus all the hats you wearat home.
Hat the leadership hat, likeall the hats plus all the hats
(10:28):
you wear at home.
Or you can look around and finda law partner.
You know somebody to partnerwith you in your entrepreneurial
journey whether it's law firmor any other entrepreneurial
journey, and you know, findsomebody that's going to help
you carry the load.
Like I said, I felt like Atlaswith all the load.
So find somebody who's going togive not 50%, 100%.
(10:48):
You give 100% and you give 100%and both of you help carry the
load and help each other levelup.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Well said.
I want to dive into that alittle bit because I think it's
so important.
Like practically what you'resaying, everyone's like yeah,
sure, that makes sense, but talkabout the in the trenches.
You know you're you're startinga business with someone who you
don't know very well.
You have to build arelationship over time.
There's going to be conflict,there's going to be different
points of view.
How did you manage to do thatover the last 10 years, to build
(11:20):
a level of of respect andconversation, knowing that you
want to be partners, becauseyou're going to push back
against each other.
You're going to make each otherbetter.
But that's not easy, right?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Well, I think, like any relationship I mean a
business relationship, apersonal relationship, a client
relationship it's all aboutcommunication and and that's
just how we approached it wejust agreed that we were going
to communicate and you knowyou've got to leave your
emotions out of it.
You know you've got to have acommunication skill and an
(11:55):
emotional skill level that youcan say you know, this is a
business discussion, we're goingto have a business discussion,
we're not going to get emotionalabout it, I'm not going to get
all my feelings involved.
You know, and we're going tokeep this on the level that you
know, we can have a grown updiscussion, we can have this.
(12:15):
You know, whatever the problemis, see the problem as
independent of the emotion andlook at it like we're
collaborating together to solvewhatever the problem is.
So, you know, I think it justcomes down to every relationship
that you have, whether it'syour clients, your opposing
counsel, your judge, your lawpartner, your at-home partner
(12:38):
All of those are relationshipsand it's just relationship
management which comes down tocommunication 100%.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
I think one thing we say around here is attack the
issue, not the person.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Absolutely 100%.
That's absolutely 100%.
It's all about building thatrapport and that collaboration
with the person to deal with theissue.
I think of it in my mind.
I always think of it like theball is sitting on the table and
the ball is the problem.
I try not to use the wordproblem, but that's like how we
(13:10):
would describe it.
But the ball is the issue,whether it's the issue that
needs to be solved in the case,or whether it's the issue that
needs to be solved betweenbusiness partners, or whether
it's the issue that needs to besolved between at home partners.
The ball is the issue and theissue sits on the table.
It's not in my lap, it's not inyour lap.
It's sitting on the table, it'sin the neutral position.
(13:32):
And then we both work, you know, to collaborate to solve the
issue.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
That's a great analogy.
What about if you're in a roomwith your other attorneys and
there's four different opinions?
Does that still work?
Maybe when there's notconsensus?
Speaker 2 (13:52):
You know the way that Michael and I've always
approached it.
Of course we're just two people.
You know the way that Michaeland I've always approached it.
Of course we're just two people, we aren't four.
But we just always said that wearen't going to move forward if
we're not 100% in alignment.
And you know, and there havebeen times where he felt
strongly about a decision andI'd give him my 1%, you know,
like I may not have felt superstrongly about something, but he
(14:14):
did, and I'd say, ok, well, I'mgoing to relent because you
feel that strongly.
Or I'd feel strongly aboutsomething and he'd say, okay,
well, I'll relent, but if wedidn't have that alignment, we
didn't move forward until we did.
So that's you know.
I think, whether it's two peopleor four people, I think that's
where you have to be and youjust have to keep working the
(14:36):
problem.
Maybe you have to look at itfrom a different perspective.
You're not looking at theproblem the right way.
You're locked into too much onone view of each person, and so
maybe you need to see adifferent facet of the problem
and get creative.
But yeah, I still think that ifyou just don't have consensus,
(15:02):
you just need more viewpoints.
You need to brainstorm more.
You haven't looked at the issueenough.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
I totally agree.
Something that we found to bereally effective is sometimes
titles or ownership king in theway.
And you know, know, the teamwho you rely on for feedback
will go with you because theythink you're really passionate
or you talk with enthusiasm butreally you may not be, and so we
use like a number system onthis and I'm like, well, I'm a
(15:36):
three on this, I don't reallycare, you know, I'm not, I'm not
going to die on this hill, andso if you're a 10 and you
believe in it, like you shouldgo for it because this is
something that you are verypassionate about and you believe
in strongly and I'm a three.
So by by naming that emotion orthat, that number as it relates
to the passion, it really helpsus move through those
effectively.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Sure, sure.
I mean you know, and at theother side of that that thing,
whatever that is you'repassionate about, you also have
to be prepared that if itdoesn't work out like you also
have to take the ownership forthat.
If you were a 10 on thatpassion scale that you really
wanted to do this thing.
But then, it doesn't.
It doesn't work out Like you gotto own that.
(16:17):
You know the other peoplemight've been right about it and
you were wrong.
And so the next time you knowthat you're a 10 on a passion
scale and you're getting somepushback on something, you know
you may have to look at itdifferently or maybe call in a
third party to kind of breakthat tie or something because
your, your perspective may notbe.
(16:37):
You know it may not be where itneeds to be.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
So you know you've also got to own your stuff when
you have that position too 100%,and I think a lot of what we're
talking about, michelle, isleadership and expansion, and
you know a lot of law firms arein that position you were in in
your solo firm, where theycontrol everything.
They have a difficult timeletting go of the branch and
(17:01):
delegating or relegating controlto other partners or other
attorneys.
How did you work through that?
How were you able to recognize,oh my gosh, the whole world is
on my shoulders.
I have to change, because I'mthe problem, like I am the issue
as to why I can't expand orhave this lifestyle that I'm
(17:22):
looking for.
Talk us through, like, whatchanged in you and how were you
able to create a great you knowlarge firm that you have now?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
I think that you always have to be learning.
You can't ever stop learning.
I believe that you can learnsomething from literally anybody
that you come across.
You can learn something fromthe janitor of your building.
You can learn something fromthe podcasts of CEOs or, like
your podcasts, of other law firmleaders.
You can literally learnsomething from everybody that
(18:01):
you come across.
They have something to teachyou.
And as long as you approachlife from that humility
standpoint and don't ever get to, as my mama would say, too big
for your britches then you keepgrowing and you keep learning,
then you keep growing and youkeep learning.
And entrepreneurship,especially solopreneurship, is
one of the hardest jobs in theworld.
(18:25):
Now it's also the thing thatcarries our country and carries
our economy.
But it is the hardest thingbecause you are literally atlas
with the entire world of yourstaff, your employees in your
business and, in some ways, theeconomy of our country on your
shoulders.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
And it's lonely.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
And it's lonely, oh my gosh.
I heard an interview I don'tknow if you follow Success Story
with Scott Clary, but a reallygood podcast to follow if you're
an entrepreneur and in business.
But he interviewed GrantCardone this week and I'm a big
Grant Cardone fan and I do a lotof sales, sales and marketing
(19:04):
and leadership work with him andthey're good friends of mine.
He and Elena are good friendsof mine.
But Scott Clary interviewedGrant Cardone and one of the
clips he released this weekGrant Cardone literally said
that.
He said my job is one of theloneliest jobs in the world and
you remember he's not asolopreneur.
He said my job ultimately is Ihave to make the decision and
(19:28):
sometimes all the people that Isurround myself my business
partners, my wife or whateverlike sometimes I have to make
the call and people don't agreewith the call I make, but I have
to make it.
Ultimately it's my decision andsometimes that's lonely because
they don't agree with me andthey push back on me and I still
(19:49):
have to be the one that makesthe call and lives with that
decision.
So you know, that's not anydifferent for billionaire Grant
Cardone in his billion dollar Idon't know how many companies he
owns now 10 or however many,we'll say 10 just to be a round
number.
But you know that's not anydifferent for billionaire Grant
Cardone than it is for asolopreneur running a small law
(20:12):
firm or a small, you know momshop while she's taking care of
her kiddos.
It is lonely at the top.
You've got to make the calls.
You've got to have theconfidence in yourself and the
leadership abilities to makethose hard, tough decisions.
It may be firing a staff membertoday, I mean, those are always
(20:32):
for me the hardest things to do.
Even if they deserve it, evenif you know that it's the right
decision, it's still toughbecause it has ripple effects.
So you know it's lonely butyou've got to make the tough
calls.
But that's ultimately your job.
Your job as an entrepreneur isto make the tough calls.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
And, I think, being going from a solopreneur to then
having the success that you'vehad and reflecting back on those
moments, it's easy to see someof those key decisions and key
calls that you've made.
If I'm a solopreneur and I'mfrustrated because I thought,
hey, I'm gonna be my own boss, Iam gonna create my own future,
(21:16):
but now I'm working 80 hours aweek, I never see my kids, what
are some of those decisions orsome of those obstacles that
have to get out of the way inorder for that firm owner to be
able to get closer to that dream?
Speaker 2 (21:31):
You know?
Look, my mama told me nobodyever promised you a rose garden.
So being an entrepreneur, lawpractice or business, it's not
going to be easy.
If you think you can do thisand work 20 hours a week and
make all the money, you're wrong.
(21:53):
That's not how this works.
You know, being an entrepreneur, owning your own law firm
whether it's a solopreneur shopor whether it's a big law firm
like mine or law firms that areeven bigger than mine you know
that's not how it works.
I work more than anybodyoutside that door.
I work more hours than anybodythat walks outside that door,
(22:15):
anybody that is on my payroll oron my staff.
They don't outwork me.
I bill more hours.
I non-bill more hours.
I spend more admin time.
When I wake up in the morning,I think about this place.
When I go to sleep at night, Ithink about this place.
When I wake up at 2 am, youknow I think about this place
(22:38):
and so does my partner.
So it's not easy.
You ask me, you know, what aresome strategies that a young
person who wants to build a lawfirm can implement?
I believe in fifth move thinking.
That's a chess reference, butand interestingly, I actually
don't play chess with chesspieces.
(22:59):
I play chess with law firms andentrepreneurship and cases,
case management.
But I implement what I callfifth move thinking, which means
you know you have to make adecision.
So in any decision you make thenext decision and then you look
at what are the ripple effectsthat are going to happen from
that decision and then what'sthe next thing that's going to
(23:23):
happen, what's the counter movethat the other side is going to
have.
So your opponent, you knowwhatever if it's a case, or you
know what is the counter attackgoing to be, what's the
long-term effect of the decision.
And then is your perspectivebuilt on winning the war, not
(23:44):
the battle.
You know you can lose a battlebut win a war.
So if it's a case decision,like if you're analyzing
strategy to win a case, samefifth move thinking applies.
But if you're building a lawfirm, same fifth move thinking
applies.
If you're making an HR decision,the same fifth move thinking
applies.
If you're making an HR decision, the same fifth move thinking
applies.
(24:05):
And ultimately, all of thatboils down to you make the
long-term decision, not theshort-term decision.
But in the analysis of how tomake the long-term decision,
those are the factors you lookat you make the next decision
because you have to make quickdecisions.
You can't sit around and thinkabout it forever.
You look at those rippleeffects.
(24:25):
You look at what's thatcounterattack going to be,
what's the long-term effect, andare you ultimately hitting your
target, which is to win the war.
What is the war you're tryingto win, what is the target
you're trying to hit, and areyou accomplishing that target as
opposed to your short-termgoals?
Speaker 1 (24:44):
That reference is so much better than the one I use,
which is for the longest time.
I'm like I got to think ofsomething else.
But we call it like you have tostep over a few wounded
soldiers to take out the sniperright.
And you got to be willing to dothat because if you're just
fighting every single firethat's in front of you, you're
never going to realize thesource of the fire.
You're never going to get tothe source.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Well and right.
I mean, that's a strategicanalysis too, right?
What you're saying is that youhave to make sacrifices and in
any business or any quoteunquote battle, whether that's a
case, whether that'sentrepreneurship you know any
struggle that you're in, if it'sa relationship, even like
(25:29):
there's going to be short termsacrifices to accomplish the
long term goal.
And that's just strategicthinking.
So you know, when you'rethinking about going into
business for yourself, you haveto focus on that strategic
thinking.
And where you want to be.
You know.
I say that everything I learnedabout life I learned from my
(25:50):
mama, but everything I learnedabout business I learned from my
daddy.
And you know my daddy would sayif you don't know where you're
going, how are you going to knowif you get there?
And that's just another way ofputting it that you have to have
strategic thinking.
You have to set your long rangegoals, you have to know what
war you want to win and then youhave to lay your battle plan.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
So good, it's so strong.
I want to end on just a fewadditional pieces of advice for
the solopreneur, for the lawyerwho's at a big firm, who's
thinking about going out ontheir own.
You've given us so many nuggetstoday, michelle, and I'm so
(26:33):
grateful for them.
Is there anything else that youcan share with our audience?
As it relates to like, hey, howdo you leave that big firm?
How do you?
What are the steps or thingsthat you need to think about
before going out on your own?
One thing that we hear often isthe hey, there's really not any
business classes in law school.
There's no.
Here's how.
Oh, by the way, you have tomake payroll and you got to pay
(26:57):
for rent and you know all thesedifferent things.
From your perspective, what arethe couple of things that
someone should think about?
Speaker 2 (27:03):
So, yeah, I mean number one you got to have a
plan so you know, before youever quit this is another thing
my daddy taught me like, quityour job on your own time, not
on somebody else's time.
So you got to have a plan thatwhen you start thinking about,
you know that you want to go doyour own thing.
You got to start planning inadvance, making connections,
(27:27):
networking.
Build your network.
Your network is your net worth.
That's a Grant Cardonism.
So start building thatconnections list and taking
those lunches.
And you know, thinking through,you know when I do this, I'm
going to need to have thesepeople lined up that you're not
going to lunch and telling themI'm about to go do my thing.
(27:48):
You know, don't do that, justbuild those relationships.
It's all about relationships.
So build your relationships upso that when it comes time to
pull your trigger, then you'vegot those relationships and then
you can go have thoseconversations.
So, number one start gettingyour plan together way in
advance.
Part of that plan is you mayneed to go take some business
(28:09):
classes so that you know how toset up and structure a business.
You may need to go take somesales and marketing classes and,
like I said I'm a big GrantCardone fan.
There's plenty of ways you cando that through Cardone training
through Cardone University.
There's plenty of ways you cando that through Cardone training
through Cardone University.
He has all of his stuff online.
You can subscribe to CardoneUniversity online and do it all
(28:33):
in the comfort of your own home.
You can stick a little AirPodin your ear and do it while
you're doing something else andlearn about sales and marketing
and structures and all sorts ofthings that can help you.
Even though it's businesstraining, it can help you learn
how to do sales and marketing,even in a law firm.
So train yourself before youever need that information.
(28:56):
Then the other thing I wouldtell a young lawyer wanting to
do that is don't burn bridges,and I think this has been so
important in my history.
We tend to let our emotions getthe better of us.
Whatever that struggle is thatyou're having in your firm right
now that is frustrating youabout your current scenario,
(29:16):
frustrating you about yourcurrent situation.
Set those emotions aside andremember your big picture,
because you don't want to burnthat bridge.
You know it's real easy in themoment, in the frustration,
whatever that is, that you canget angry, you can get mad, you
can get, you know, emotionalabout it and let that bubble up
(29:38):
and boil up and you've just gotto take a deep breath and keep
your perspective and keep yourhead about you and not your
heart and let that die down andremember the war, not the battle
that you're trying to work atthat moment.
And remember your strategybecause if you burn that bridge,
it's going to follow you.
So I've been really lucky overmy career Maybe not, maybe
(30:01):
luck's not the right word for itI've been very strategic that
every time I left a job, youknow I was very cognizant to
overperform the job.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
All the way to the end.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Walking out the door.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
You know I overperformed my fiduciary duty
to them.
I overperformed my fiduciaryduty to them.
I overperformed still bringingin cases.
I overperformed billing hoursall the way up to the day the
door hit my ass on the way out.
So I hope I-.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Oh no, it's all good.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
So you know, the day that I walked out the door, I
still overperformed so thatnobody could ever critique the
way that I left, so thateverybody would always say, at
the end, michelle still did theright thing.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
So big.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Yeah, and so then my integrity was still in place
even as I was exiting, and Ithink that really has served me
well.
I still consider these men thatI worked for as friends and
mentors, and even as Michael andI started this firm, one of the
men that actually put ustogether was a gentleman that we
(31:17):
both had worked for.
Michael was working for him atthe time and I had previously
worked for him and exited hisfirm.
So you know so he was actuallya mentor to both of us, bringing
us together, knowing us verywell, and you know so, firms
that I have exited have ended upbeing mentors to me as I've
grown, and you know just in mypractice and in my career.
(31:40):
So just don't ever burn thosebridges.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
And well, that is a piece of advice that we don't
give out enough, becauserelationships end, jobs end, all
the things, and they're goingto remember those last few
moments and if you don't end,well that it's going to tarnish
anything that you did while youwere there.
Tarnish anything that you didwhile you were there.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
A hundred percent.
You know the statistics forbusinesses.
You know businesses fail andnot.
You know law firm is a business.
So the statistics for businessfailure are high and you know if
a business, whether it's a lawfirm or otherwise, makes it
three to five years it's kind oflike a marriage that makes it
(32:29):
seven years You're beating theodds.
You know and and and.
So if you're, if you're goinginto business for yourself and
you make it three to five yearslike you're beating the odds,
but the chances are you won't,so you've got to fight for it to
beat the odds.
But if you don't, you've got tohedge your bets.
You don't want to burn thosebridges.
You got to keep thoserelationships intact, just in
case you ever need to go revisitthem.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
So well said, michelle.
I wish we had three hourstogether because you have
provided so much just amazingnuggets for our audience and for
myself.
I'm so grateful for you and thetime we were able to spend, and
hope that you will come backand continue to share with us.
Thank you so much for you andthe time we were able to spend,
and hope that you will come backand continue to share with us.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
If you enjoyed this amazing interview with Michelle,
make sure to check out theother interviews we've done.
We love this interview seriesand it gives us an opportunity
to learn and grow from other lawfirm owners in our space doing
amazing things.
There's one that you shouldcheck out right here.
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