August 21, 2025 ā¢ 21 mins
Law firm intake systems kill growth when paralegals handle calls while juggling case prep, collections, and trial work.
Most law firms fail because they treat intake as an afterthought. At Sterling Lawyers, we learned the hard way that paralegals can't be fully present on intake calls when they're managing trial prep and collections. That's why we built a systematic approach to law firm sales training and client consultation optimization that actually scales. Our legal intake staff hiring process goes through 800 applications to find one person because your intake team is your brand's first impression. The framework works: dedicated teams, systematic training, and measurable accountability drive law firm revenue optimization and predictable client acquisition systems.
This Sterling Lawyers' systematic approach solved the intake bottleneck that stalls firms at $2-5MM. Our 800:1 hiring ratio and proven training framework.
š² Subscribe Now: https://www.youtube.com/@karls.anthony
š Schedule a FREE Family Law Firm Audit: https://rocketclicks.com/schedule-a-family-law-quick-audit/Ā
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š CHAPTERS Ā
0:00 - Law Firm Intake Systems: Why Great Staff Matter More Than EverĀ
2:03 - The Paralegal Problem: Why Multitasking Kills Intake Performance
4:34 - Sterling's Dedicated Sales Team Model: $250 Consultations That ConvertĀ
8:29 - Client First Impression Strategy: Making Them Feel Heard and Cared ForĀ
11:08 - The 800:1 Hiring Ratio: How We Find the Right Intake Personnel
13:28 - Systematic Training Framework: I Do, You Watch MethodĀ
18:27 - Professional vs Amateur Mindset: Taking Every Interaction Seriously
----------------------
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Why great intake staff matter more than ever for
family law firms.
Check out this episode to learnhow we at Sterling Law were
able to build an incredibleintake staff and take our firm
to new heights.
I'm your host, tyler Dolph, andwith me today is Anthony Karls.
(00:21):
He is the co-founder andbuilder of Sterling Lawyers,
which is a $16 million law firmwith 32 attorneys.
They are our law firm here atthis business and he's currently
the president of RocketClicks,which is our family law firm
growth consultancy.
(00:42):
Today we're going to talk aboutselling in a law practice,
whether it's non-attorney sales,whether it's paralegals or even
the attorneys.
What happens in that consultroom, how to maximize those
deals and those opportunities.
Tony takes us through reallyfive great points as it relates
(01:03):
to maximizing this process.
Tony, always great to see you.
Thanks for coming back.
Yeah, thank you.
So today we're going to talkabout sales in a family law firm
to sell to, not to sell, who'sselling, who's not selling so
much to talk about here.
I know over at Sterling we'vetried many, many things as it
(01:27):
relates to selling in a law firm, but I'd like to start with
just understanding the talentshortage in law firms as we talk
to many of our clients andwe're doing interviews on this
podcast with law firm owners.
They always talk about havingto be the person to start out
(01:48):
with.
When they start their firm,they're doing everything right
and then, as they grow, they'rehaving to make strategic hires
within the firm, and I thinksales is often one that's a
little scary, it's a littledifficult and it's probably
because there aren't that manygreat salespeople in this space.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, yeah, I would agree.
It's definitely something welearned when we started.
Obviously, I think I was thefirst person that was answering
the phones.
And then we hired our firstattorney and paralegal and the
paralegal was the first personin queue to answer the phones,
and then it was me and westarted seeing like oh hey, they
don't really like that job,that's not what they're good at,
(02:30):
what they are or what theyenjoy, and that comes off to the
potential client in theconversation.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
It's like it's not that they're annoyed that
they're.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
the paralegals are annoyed it's that they have a
lot of stuff to do for theattorney and like they want to
make sure that gets done,because if it doesn't get done
then the attorney is frustrated,because now the attorney looks
like they don't know whatthey're doing and they're
incompetent and it's just likeit's the snowball.
So like the intake call becomesthe last thing that we're going
to deal with.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Hard for the paralegal to be where their feet
are and be fully present inthat conversation.
Now you have so much to do feetare, and be fully present in
that conversation.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Now I have so much to do.
Yeah, exactly, and it's so.
It's.
You know, it's really what wefound is it's really imperative
for us to have a team and likeso we have a dedicated team, two
teams actually, so it's one bigsales team with a sales manager
and we have people that dointake and we have people that
actually do consults that arenot not attorney consultation
(03:27):
folks, and they're.
They both do a great job andyou know where we are in.
Our model is all of them arepaid consults.
So our I believe our attorneyscharge 250 dollars for a
one-hour consultation and for aCLA that's what we call it a
non-attorney salesperson to do aconsult, it's 150 bucks.
So our intake team needs to besalespeople and they need to be
(03:50):
taught how to do sales and theyneed to be held accountable for
sales and we need to recruit forsales.
We need to do all of thesethings that are like it's a
little different than what youwould potentially expect.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Yeah, so not only are we helping our audience
understand the importance, howessential it is to have great
salespeople, but we, you know,we have the experience, boots on
the ground where we try doingfree consults, we tried doing
having the attorneys doeverything and we found this our
listeners to to take this leapand make their first hire.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
I mean, I think the I think it's actually one of the
most important positions in thefirm is your intake people,
because that's the first, thatis very likely the first human
they've been engaged with,that's associated with your
brand and, like, if that's not agood experience, they're just
going to go back to Google orwherever they're sourcing their
(04:56):
list of potential attorneys towork with from and they're going
to call the next one.
And it's super imperative thatthat first interaction has a lot
of quality because, like, ifyou're treating these
conversations well, you're nottrying to sell something.
You're trying to get thepotential client to tell you
their story and your goal as thesalesperson or the intake
(05:19):
person is make them feel heard,make them feel like you we care,
make them feel heard, make themfeel like we care, make them
feel like what they're sayingmatters, so that we can then
move them to the next step,which is like, okay, we've built
a little bit of trust.
Now I want you to meet someoneon our team, one of our
attorneys or one of ournon-attorney salespeople, so
that we can help you understandwhat the next steps are going to
(05:41):
look like, so you can moveforward through this really
traumatic life experience.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
That's such an important point.
You know, if you're doing thisevery single day, it may become
a little numb or you may notrealize like this is one of the
worst days in someone's life andbeing able to have the presence
of mind and be empathetic is socrucial to being successful in
that role.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, this is probably the first time
that they're talking to astranger about all of this very
personal stuff and like that's a, that's a monumental like move
from a all right, we're in theresearch phase and now like
we're going to transition into,like now it's going to happen
that's, and that that's a.
That's a hard emotional stateto go through.
(06:27):
So if you do it really well,like you make your whole process
better, because people don'twant to do that multiple times,
like that's the actual reality.
So the better you are at this,the less likely they're actually
going to call the next personon the list because they don't
want to do it again.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
I keep thinking about the importance of having
someone who can live in thatmoment and be present with that
person.
And again, just back to thelike if you're a paralegal and
you have a million things to do,as as great as you may be, it
is going to be impossible foryou to be, like, fully present.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Yeah, cause you're I mean,oftentimes you have some of that
on your plate as aresponsibility.
You're also in charge of doingsome of the collection work, in
charge of doing a bunch of thedocument preparation and you
know, trial prep and all ofthose things and you're really
busy.
You're kind of like in all ofthese different realms and like
(07:27):
this one um conversation, youkind of want to get it done if
you're in that seat because,like you have a lot of other
things to do.
So like I don't want to spend15 minutes on the phone hearing
betty's story about how bad herjail where her husband is and
how she's scared for her kidsand she doesn't know where she's
going to live, and like all ofthose things.
(07:47):
Like so it feels clinical andit feels like very um, just
transactional and you set theattorney up now to not have a
great console right.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
I think that's a really important piece is
sometimes, I think if we talkabout sales, sales can be a lot
of things right.
You have your used car salesmanpersona.
That is very transactional justbuy, buy.
You never see him again.
This to me, this sales role, isvery much relational.
It is connecting with someoneand ensuring that they have a
(08:23):
great experience throughout thistransaction, as opposed to like
just go close another deal.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Yeah this transaction , as opposed to like just go
close another deal.
Yeah, I mean the, our, our bestsales folks.
They actually care, like theyreally care about what they're
hearing and it shows up in theiractivity and their followup
because they're not.
So we, when we, when we do our,our intake process here at
(08:49):
Sterling, how we think about itis if I'm doing a good job as
the intake person, I care enoughto make sure I know that you
move forward in the best waypossible.
So, even if you didn't sign upwith me because I'm going to
charge you $150 to meet with mynon-attorney salesperson, I'm
going to follow up with you to,like I'm going to charge you 150
to meet with mine not attorneysalesperson, I'm going to follow
(09:11):
up with you to make sure, likeyou move forward and like you're
doing some marketing there andlike you're actually not trying
to push, you're just trying tohave a relationship, you're
trying to care.
So, like a lot of the follow-upsare, you know what I'm?
You know I'm still not sure Iwant to do this.
That's the client's going tosay I got to talk to my mother
and I got to talk to my sisterabout you know what's going to
(09:35):
happen.
So, like, I'll call you backnext week.
If they don't call you back,the followup should be how did
you talk, how did theconversation go with your, with
your mother and with your sister?
And like, how was the?
The?
How are you feeling?
Like, are you?
Are you in a good spot?
Do you have resources?
Do you need all that stuff?
Like it's all from a point ofcare help.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
First mindset yeah, hey, you got that credit card
ready, I'm ready to take yourmoney now, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
And then, like you, see that in the performance
people that are sales, peoplethat we've had to coach out of
that they they don't do as welland their commissions are low.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Yeah, it's so funny how important sales is to every
industry, but it's so differentper industry based on what that
interaction and transactionprocess is.
And, uh, I think it's importantthat our audience understands
(10:31):
that this hiring, this role iscrucial, but being able to find
the right person is going totake time.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
It's going to take time and like, uh, it's better
to not have them than add thewrong person because they're the
first person that your brand,your brand, is now speaking to
that client with.
They're the first person thatyour brand, your brand, is now
speaking to that client with.
And um, so we've gone through,you know, we've spent a lot of
time figuring out how to do thatat the law firm with how we,
(10:58):
you know, we get, I think, ourthroughput on on intake team
members that we hire um, it'sabout 800 applications to one
hire.
So, like we go through a lot ofapplications to find the right
person, cause, like they'rerepresenting our brand, they're
the, they're now like the firstvoice and face of this
(11:19):
interaction, and like that's abig responsibility.
So, like, take your time, do itright, get a good salesperson
that truly wants to do this andcares and is aligned with your
mission.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
How does a law firm even find this kind of person?
Like what is attracting andfinding this talent look like?
How did we do it at Sterling?
Speaker 2 (11:39):
I don't.
I mean, I don't think it's anydifferent than normal recruiting
, like if you don't have acompelling mission, compelling
story, you don't have thingsabout your culture on your team
on your like about us page, ifthere's not a sense that what
you're doing is actually helpful, like it's going to be harder
and that 800 to one might be 12or 1500 to one.
(12:04):
And like now it's like, oh myGod, how am I going to review
all these resumes?
Like that's crazy.
Like now it's like, oh my God,how am I going to review all
these resumes?
Like that's crazy.
But we've we've put in place abunch of different personality
tests so we know, like are arethese nurturing type people or
are they over?
Or are they driving type people?
Are they?
Do we have?
Do they have experience doingsales in the first place?
(12:29):
So we don't typically hire alot of people that haven't been
on the phones before, causethese are hard.
These are from my experiencebeing involved with call centers
.
This is one of the moredifficult call center jobs that
I would say exists, becauseyou're you're not getting a lot
of happy stories on the otherside.
You're getting a lot of likesuper raw People are crying.
(12:50):
Sometimes there's deep domesticviolence involved.
Sometimes there's, you know,there's real situations and like
that can be super heavy.
So you know, what we found is,you know there's a personality
profile that does really wellhere because they can care, but
they don't bring it home withthem because that's really
important.
(13:11):
We've seen like people bringthat, like take it home, and
then they're they're feelingdepressed and upset and stressed
and um, so there's like athere's a lot of different
components to what we've put inplace to try to figure out what
that is.
And then our process forbringing him on is pretty
(13:32):
regimented.
So the first two weeks allthey're doing is shadowing our
best person, like literallywatching them.
So Mary will have her screen up, mary's taking calls and then
you know, john sit next to herand just literally watching her
do it and listening to the calland like learning that for two
weeks.
And then the third week they'llstart taking, they'll start
(13:54):
actually taking some calls andafter every call they're
debriefing and then they're kindof starting to get their sea
legs.
And we found there's been lotsof instances where in those
first two weeks they're notattentive, they're not taking it
seriously, like okay, thisisn't this.
You know we missed something inthe interview process.
(14:15):
This isn't the right person.
So we take the job veryseriously because it means a lot
.
It means a lot to the businessand it means a lot to the
clients.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Love it.
I'm sitting here thinking likedo these, do the normal
candidates for this role haveprior sales experience?
Do we even want them to havesales experience?
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Yeah, they have.
They typically have previouscall center experience.
So that'll be where, whereit'll come in, because part of
this team is they're actuallythey're off, they're actually
offshore.
So like they're not even USbased.
So like part of the reason wehave such a high application to
(14:59):
hire ratio is the first step isthey got to submit a video
selling me on why I should havea conversation with them, like
that's their first step and likea bunch of people won't even do
that.
They'll submit their resume.
They'll get the auto responseto submit a video.
They won't submit a video orthey'll submit a video and it's
not very good.
It's like okay, so now we'veweeded out a whole bunch and you
(15:24):
know that allows us to likefind the ones that have the
right personality and likeintention for the job right away
.
So that's been, that's beensuper helpful.
And then, obviously, when weget into the interview process,
we are asking them we don't careif they have tons of sales
(15:45):
experience, it's just we want to.
We want to make sure they'vehad the experience of like being
in a call center where they'retaking calls and executing like
that every single day, 100%.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
So if I'm a small attorney firm and I'm thinking
about you know, doing thisprocess, I think your point
about shadowing is going to beparamount right.
They're going to have to watchyou go through the console, have
the conversation, build themuscle and repeat that over time
.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's been we had.
We went through multipleiterations of that.
At first we had tons ofdocumented SOPs and a whole
bunch of material that we wouldlike bring them in and give it
to them and then we'd test themand do all this stuff and that
would take our.
Our ramp time for those peoplewas so much longer.
(16:37):
Because then they get on thephones and like I don't remember
everything I'm supposed toremember and like I don't even
know how the phone works, likewhat happened about the phone,
and like I passed those, thosetests, but then I didn't use the
phone for a week, like how do Imake a phone call again?
Like how do I pick it up?
Like how do I try, how do Imake a transfer?
(16:58):
So we found pairing a newperson up with someone that's
doing it really well.
You're going to pick up a lotof the nuances and then after
the call you just debrief thiswhen you heard this.
This is why I did this, this isyou know, so on and so forth.
So it's really accelerated theprocess.
(17:20):
But that modeling, I think, isso important.
So I think you know internally,we call it, I do you watch, I
do you help?
I'm like so week one is I doyou watch?
So you're just watching me thewhole time.
Week two is I do, so I'mrunning the call, but you're
entering everything into thecall center or into the call
flow application in Salesforce.
So that's what we call I do youhelp?
(17:44):
And then we turn into you, do Ihelp?
So now you're on the call andI'm putting everything into the
Salesforce.
And then the final step isyou're doing it independently.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yeah, you do.
Iwatch, yeah, which is a greatdelegation tool that we use
across our organizations hereFor sure.
So, as we're kind of coming toan end here, I think I'd like to
shift gears a bit and talk tothe salespeople.
Right, if you're a, if you're asale, if you're in a sales role
(18:15):
at a legal organization andyou're looking to level up or
you're looking to take that nextstep, what advice do you have
for them to continue to honetheir skills and become great?
Speaker 2 (18:27):
So what I'd say is you know, depending on I'll just
take it from like, assumingyou're you just started, you're
kind of in the space, and howyou want to grow um, like, take
it super seriously.
And, like, you know, there's a,there's a video that we give
our people in the call center,called professional or amateur.
And if you're a professional,like, you're going to take all
(18:47):
of these interactions seriouslyand what that means is you're
going to take good notes.
You're going to take all ofthese interactions seriously and
what that means is you're goingto take good notes.
You're going to know everysingle person that you talk to
you.
You personally want to knowwhat happened to them.
Did they, did they go forwardor did they not?
If they didn't, did they getresources that they need to move
forward?
And like, take a lot of carefor the clients coming in Cause
(19:09):
you're going to build a reallystrong muscle.
And then the next opportunityis a non-attorney sales role
where you're actually executingthe consultation.
But that only happens if you'vemastered what you need to master
in that first role and we'veseen.
You know, I think we have sixnon-attorney salespeople now on
our team at Sterling.
(19:30):
They do a bulk of theconsultations probably 60 or so
percent and they perform just asgood, if not better, than, our
attorneys sometimes.
So when you compare it, it'skind of fun to see how do our
attorneys perform and how do ournon-attorney salespeople
(19:51):
perform.
Attorneys generally willperform better if they need more
files, but as soon as they'refull they will then actually
start performing worse.
And the deltas aren't verysignificant, they're like three
to five percent.
Um, so it's back to uh, beingwhere your feet are there.
Yeah, exactly, it's exactlythat.
Because you attorneys will getreal busy, their candles will
(20:13):
get super full if they get atrial or stuff comes up and now
it's like I don't really want todo that counsel today.
You're busy.
Yeah, exactly, and it makessense, like it's not a bad thing
, it's just a human thing.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I love it.
This has been so helpful.
Really appreciate your time andinsights.
Obviously and I think if you'relistening to this and you're
thinking about you know do Itake the leap and hire a
non-attorney salesperson?
You can use some of the advicehere.
If you're already doing it, youknow, continue to double down
on on empathy and being presentand being able to hear people's
(20:46):
stories and and add some careinto those interactions.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah, I a hundred and add some care into those
interactions.
Yeah, I 100% agree.
I think it's great advice,super important and patience is
the key here.
So going fast and getting abutton to seat is not a good
strategy.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
It's not going to work long-term for sure.
Thanks everyone, reallyappreciate your time.
If you liked the conversationtoday about selling in your law
firm, make sure to check outthis video.
We'll make sure to post it inthe comments as well.
We host and interview law firmowners every single day.
Help them tell their story asan opportunity to give back to
(21:24):
this great community.
Thanks everyone and we'll seeyou next time.
Why great intake staff matter more than ever for
family law firms.
Check out this episode to learnhow we at Sterling Law were
able to build an incredibleintake staff and take our firm
to new heights.
I'm your host, tyler Dolph, andwith me today is Anthony Karls.
(00:21):
He is the co-founder andbuilder of Sterling Lawyers,
which is a $16 million law firmwith 32 attorneys.
They are our law firm here atthis business and he's currently
the president of RocketClicks,which is our family law firm
growth consultancy.
(00:42):
Today we're going to talk aboutselling in a law practice,
whether it's non-attorney sales,whether it's paralegals or even
the attorneys.
What happens in that consultroom, how to maximize those
deals and those opportunities.
Tony takes us through reallyfive great points as it relates
(01:03):
to maximizing this process.
Tony, always great to see you.
Thanks for coming back.
Yeah, thank you.
So today we're going to talkabout sales in a family law firm
to sell to, not to sell, who'sselling, who's not selling so
much to talk about here.
I know over at Sterling we'vetried many, many things as it
(01:27):
relates to selling in a law firm, but I'd like to start with
just understanding the talentshortage in law firms as we talk
to many of our clients andwe're doing interviews on this
podcast with law firm owners.
They always talk about havingto be the person to start out
(01:48):
with.
When they start their firm,they're doing everything right
and then, as they grow, they'rehaving to make strategic hires
within the firm, and I thinksales is often one that's a
little scary, it's a littledifficult and it's probably
because there aren't that manygreat salespeople in this space.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, yeah, I would agree.
It's definitely something welearned when we started.
Obviously, I think I was thefirst person that was answering
the phones.
And then we hired our firstattorney and paralegal and the
paralegal was the first personin queue to answer the phones,
and then it was me and westarted seeing like oh hey, they
don't really like that job,that's not what they're good at,
(02:30):
what they are or what theyenjoy, and that comes off to the
potential client in theconversation.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
It's like it's not that they're annoyed that
they're.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
the paralegals are annoyed it's that they have a
lot of stuff to do for theattorney and like they want to
make sure that gets done,because if it doesn't get done
then the attorney is frustrated,because now the attorney looks
like they don't know whatthey're doing and they're
incompetent and it's just likeit's the snowball.
So like the intake call becomesthe last thing that we're going
to deal with.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Hard for the paralegal to be where their feet
are and be fully present inthat conversation.
Now you have so much to do feetare, and be fully present in
that conversation.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Now I have so much to do.
Yeah, exactly, and it's so.
It's.
You know, it's really what wefound is it's really imperative
for us to have a team and likeso we have a dedicated team, two
teams actually, so it's one bigsales team with a sales manager
and we have people that dointake and we have people that
actually do consults that arenot not attorney consultation
(03:27):
folks, and they're.
They both do a great job andyou know where we are in.
Our model is all of them arepaid consults.
So our I believe our attorneyscharge 250 dollars for a
one-hour consultation and for aCLA that's what we call it a
non-attorney salesperson to do aconsult, it's 150 bucks.
So our intake team needs to besalespeople and they need to be
(03:50):
taught how to do sales and theyneed to be held accountable for
sales and we need to recruit forsales.
We need to do all of thesethings that are like it's a
little different than what youwould potentially expect.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Yeah, so not only are we helping our audience
understand the importance, howessential it is to have great
salespeople, but we, you know,we have the experience, boots on
the ground where we try doingfree consults, we tried doing
having the attorneys doeverything and we found this our
listeners to to take this leapand make their first hire.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
I mean, I think the I think it's actually one of the
most important positions in thefirm is your intake people,
because that's the first, thatis very likely the first human
they've been engaged with,that's associated with your
brand and, like, if that's not agood experience, they're just
going to go back to Google orwherever they're sourcing their
(04:56):
list of potential attorneys towork with from and they're going
to call the next one.
And it's super imperative thatthat first interaction has a lot
of quality because, like, ifyou're treating these
conversations well, you're nottrying to sell something.
You're trying to get thepotential client to tell you
their story and your goal as thesalesperson or the intake
(05:19):
person is make them feel heard,make them feel like you we care,
make them feel heard, make themfeel like we care, make them
feel like what they're sayingmatters, so that we can then
move them to the next step,which is like, okay, we've built
a little bit of trust.
Now I want you to meet someoneon our team, one of our
attorneys or one of ournon-attorney salespeople, so
that we can help you understandwhat the next steps are going to
(05:41):
look like, so you can moveforward through this really
traumatic life experience.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
That's such an important point.
You know, if you're doing thisevery single day, it may become
a little numb or you may notrealize like this is one of the
worst days in someone's life andbeing able to have the presence
of mind and be empathetic is socrucial to being successful in
that role.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, this is probably the first time
that they're talking to astranger about all of this very
personal stuff and like that's a, that's a monumental like move
from a all right, we're in theresearch phase and now like
we're going to transition into,like now it's going to happen
that's, and that that's a.
That's a hard emotional stateto go through.
(06:27):
So if you do it really well,like you make your whole process
better, because people don'twant to do that multiple times,
like that's the actual reality.
So the better you are at this,the less likely they're actually
going to call the next personon the list because they don't
want to do it again.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
I keep thinking about the importance of having
someone who can live in thatmoment and be present with that
person.
And again, just back to thelike if you're a paralegal and
you have a million things to do,as as great as you may be, it
is going to be impossible foryou to be, like, fully present.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Yeah, cause you're I mean,oftentimes you have some of that
on your plate as aresponsibility.
You're also in charge of doingsome of the collection work, in
charge of doing a bunch of thedocument preparation and you
know, trial prep and all ofthose things and you're really
busy.
You're kind of like in all ofthese different realms and like
(07:27):
this one um conversation, youkind of want to get it done if
you're in that seat because,like you have a lot of other
things to do.
So like I don't want to spend15 minutes on the phone hearing
betty's story about how bad herjail where her husband is and
how she's scared for her kidsand she doesn't know where she's
going to live, and like all ofthose things.
(07:47):
Like so it feels clinical andit feels like very um, just
transactional and you set theattorney up now to not have a
great console right.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
I think that's a really important piece is
sometimes, I think if we talkabout sales, sales can be a lot
of things right.
You have your used car salesmanpersona.
That is very transactional justbuy, buy.
You never see him again.
This to me, this sales role, isvery much relational.
It is connecting with someoneand ensuring that they have a
(08:23):
great experience throughout thistransaction, as opposed to like
just go close another deal.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Yeah this transaction , as opposed to like just go
close another deal.
Yeah, I mean the, our, our bestsales folks.
They actually care, like theyreally care about what they're
hearing and it shows up in theiractivity and their followup
because they're not.
So we, when we, when we do our,our intake process here at
(08:49):
Sterling, how we think about itis if I'm doing a good job as
the intake person, I care enoughto make sure I know that you
move forward in the best waypossible.
So, even if you didn't sign upwith me because I'm going to
charge you $150 to meet with mynon-attorney salesperson, I'm
going to follow up with you to,like I'm going to charge you 150
to meet with mine not attorneysalesperson, I'm going to follow
(09:11):
up with you to make sure, likeyou move forward and like you're
doing some marketing there andlike you're actually not trying
to push, you're just trying tohave a relationship, you're
trying to care.
So, like a lot of the follow-upsare, you know what I'm?
You know I'm still not sure Iwant to do this.
That's the client's going tosay I got to talk to my mother
and I got to talk to my sisterabout you know what's going to
(09:35):
happen.
So, like, I'll call you backnext week.
If they don't call you back,the followup should be how did
you talk, how did theconversation go with your, with
your mother and with your sister?
And like, how was the?
The?
How are you feeling?
Like, are you?
Are you in a good spot?
Do you have resources?
Do you need all that stuff?
Like it's all from a point ofcare help.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
First mindset yeah, hey, you got that credit card
ready, I'm ready to take yourmoney now, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
And then, like you, see that in the performance
people that are sales, peoplethat we've had to coach out of
that they they don't do as welland their commissions are low.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Yeah, it's so funny how important sales is to every
industry, but it's so differentper industry based on what that
interaction and transactionprocess is.
And, uh, I think it's importantthat our audience understands
(10:31):
that this hiring, this role iscrucial, but being able to find
the right person is going totake time.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
It's going to take time and like, uh, it's better
to not have them than add thewrong person because they're the
first person that your brand,your brand, is now speaking to
that client with.
They're the first person thatyour brand, your brand, is now
speaking to that client with.
And um, so we've gone through,you know, we've spent a lot of
time figuring out how to do thatat the law firm with how we,
(10:58):
you know, we get, I think, ourthroughput on on intake team
members that we hire um, it'sabout 800 applications to one
hire.
So, like we go through a lot ofapplications to find the right
person, cause, like they'rerepresenting our brand, they're
the, they're now like the firstvoice and face of this
(11:19):
interaction, and like that's abig responsibility.
So, like, take your time, do itright, get a good salesperson
that truly wants to do this andcares and is aligned with your
mission.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
How does a law firm even find this kind of person?
Like what is attracting andfinding this talent look like?
How did we do it at Sterling?
Speaker 2 (11:39):
I don't.
I mean, I don't think it's anydifferent than normal recruiting
, like if you don't have acompelling mission, compelling
story, you don't have thingsabout your culture on your team
on your like about us page, ifthere's not a sense that what
you're doing is actually helpful, like it's going to be harder
and that 800 to one might be 12or 1500 to one.
(12:04):
And like now it's like, oh myGod, how am I going to review
all these resumes?
Like that's crazy.
Like now it's like, oh my God,how am I going to review all
these resumes?
Like that's crazy.
But we've we've put in place abunch of different personality
tests so we know, like are arethese nurturing type people or
are they over?
Or are they driving type people?
Are they?
Do we have?
Do they have experience doingsales in the first place?
(12:29):
So we don't typically hire alot of people that haven't been
on the phones before, causethese are hard.
These are from my experiencebeing involved with call centers
.
This is one of the moredifficult call center jobs that
I would say exists, becauseyou're you're not getting a lot
of happy stories on the otherside.
You're getting a lot of likesuper raw People are crying.
(12:50):
Sometimes there's deep domesticviolence involved.
Sometimes there's, you know,there's real situations and like
that can be super heavy.
So you know, what we found is,you know there's a personality
profile that does really wellhere because they can care, but
they don't bring it home withthem because that's really
important.
(13:11):
We've seen like people bringthat, like take it home, and
then they're they're feelingdepressed and upset and stressed
and um, so there's like athere's a lot of different
components to what we've put inplace to try to figure out what
that is.
And then our process forbringing him on is pretty
(13:32):
regimented.
So the first two weeks allthey're doing is shadowing our
best person, like literallywatching them.
So Mary will have her screen up, mary's taking calls and then
you know, john sit next to herand just literally watching her
do it and listening to the calland like learning that for two
weeks.
And then the third week they'llstart taking, they'll start
(13:54):
actually taking some calls andafter every call they're
debriefing and then they're kindof starting to get their sea
legs.
And we found there's been lotsof instances where in those
first two weeks they're notattentive, they're not taking it
seriously, like okay, thisisn't this.
You know we missed something inthe interview process.
(14:15):
This isn't the right person.
So we take the job veryseriously because it means a lot
.
It means a lot to the businessand it means a lot to the
clients.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Love it.
I'm sitting here thinking likedo these, do the normal
candidates for this role haveprior sales experience?
Do we even want them to havesales experience?
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Yeah, they have.
They typically have previouscall center experience.
So that'll be where, whereit'll come in, because part of
this team is they're actuallythey're off, they're actually
offshore.
So like they're not even USbased.
So like part of the reason wehave such a high application to
(14:59):
hire ratio is the first step isthey got to submit a video
selling me on why I should havea conversation with them, like
that's their first step and likea bunch of people won't even do
that.
They'll submit their resume.
They'll get the auto responseto submit a video.
They won't submit a video orthey'll submit a video and it's
not very good.
It's like okay, so now we'veweeded out a whole bunch and you
(15:24):
know that allows us to likefind the ones that have the
right personality and likeintention for the job right away
.
So that's been, that's beensuper helpful.
And then, obviously, when weget into the interview process,
we are asking them we don't careif they have tons of sales
(15:45):
experience, it's just we want to.
We want to make sure they'vehad the experience of like being
in a call center where they'retaking calls and executing like
that every single day, 100%.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
So if I'm a small attorney firm and I'm thinking
about you know, doing thisprocess, I think your point
about shadowing is going to beparamount right.
They're going to have to watchyou go through the console, have
the conversation, build themuscle and repeat that over time
.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's been we had.
We went through multipleiterations of that.
At first we had tons ofdocumented SOPs and a whole
bunch of material that we wouldlike bring them in and give it
to them and then we'd test themand do all this stuff and that
would take our.
Our ramp time for those peoplewas so much longer.
(16:37):
Because then they get on thephones and like I don't remember
everything I'm supposed toremember and like I don't even
know how the phone works, likewhat happened about the phone,
and like I passed those, thosetests, but then I didn't use the
phone for a week, like how do Imake a phone call again?
Like how do I pick it up?
Like how do I try, how do Imake a transfer?
(16:58):
So we found pairing a newperson up with someone that's
doing it really well.
You're going to pick up a lotof the nuances and then after
the call you just debrief thiswhen you heard this.
This is why I did this, this isyou know, so on and so forth.
So it's really accelerated theprocess.
(17:20):
But that modeling, I think, isso important.
So I think you know internally,we call it, I do you watch, I
do you help?
I'm like so week one is I doyou watch?
So you're just watching me thewhole time.
Week two is I do, so I'mrunning the call, but you're
entering everything into thecall center or into the call
flow application in Salesforce.
So that's what we call I do youhelp?
(17:44):
And then we turn into you, do Ihelp?
So now you're on the call andI'm putting everything into the
Salesforce.
And then the final step isyou're doing it independently.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yeah, you do.
Iwatch, yeah, which is a greatdelegation tool that we use
across our organizations hereFor sure.
So, as we're kind of coming toan end here, I think I'd like to
shift gears a bit and talk tothe salespeople.
Right, if you're a, if you're asale, if you're in a sales role
(18:15):
at a legal organization andyou're looking to level up or
you're looking to take that nextstep, what advice do you have
for them to continue to honetheir skills and become great?
Speaker 2 (18:27):
So what I'd say is you know, depending on I'll just
take it from like, assumingyou're you just started, you're
kind of in the space, and howyou want to grow um, like, take
it super seriously.
And, like, you know, there's a,there's a video that we give
our people in the call center,called professional or amateur.
And if you're a professional,like, you're going to take all
(18:47):
of these interactions seriouslyand what that means is you're
going to take good notes.
You're going to take all ofthese interactions seriously and
what that means is you're goingto take good notes.
You're going to know everysingle person that you talk to
you.
You personally want to knowwhat happened to them.
Did they, did they go forwardor did they not?
If they didn't, did they getresources that they need to move
forward?
And like, take a lot of carefor the clients coming in Cause
(19:09):
you're going to build a reallystrong muscle.
And then the next opportunityis a non-attorney sales role
where you're actually executingthe consultation.
But that only happens if you'vemastered what you need to master
in that first role and we'veseen.
You know, I think we have sixnon-attorney salespeople now on
our team at Sterling.
(19:30):
They do a bulk of theconsultations probably 60 or so
percent and they perform just asgood, if not better, than, our
attorneys sometimes.
So when you compare it, it'skind of fun to see how do our
attorneys perform and how do ournon-attorney salespeople
(19:51):
perform.
Attorneys generally willperform better if they need more
files, but as soon as they'refull they will then actually
start performing worse.
And the deltas aren't verysignificant, they're like three
to five percent.
Um, so it's back to uh, beingwhere your feet are there.
Yeah, exactly, it's exactlythat.
Because you attorneys will getreal busy, their candles will
(20:13):
get super full if they get atrial or stuff comes up and now
it's like I don't really want todo that counsel today.
You're busy.
Yeah, exactly, and it makessense, like it's not a bad thing
, it's just a human thing.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I love it.
This has been so helpful.
Really appreciate your time andinsights.
Obviously and I think if you'relistening to this and you're
thinking about you know do Itake the leap and hire a
non-attorney salesperson?
You can use some of the advicehere.
If you're already doing it, youknow, continue to double down
on on empathy and being presentand being able to hear people's
(20:46):
stories and and add some careinto those interactions.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah, I a hundred and add some care into those
interactions.
Yeah, I 100% agree.
I think it's great advice,super important and patience is
the key here.
So going fast and getting abutton to seat is not a good
strategy.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
It's not going to work long-term for sure.
Thanks everyone, reallyappreciate your time.
If you liked the conversationtoday about selling in your law
firm, make sure to check outthis video.
We'll make sure to post it inthe comments as well.
We host and interview law firmowners every single day.
Help them tell their story asan opportunity to give back to
(21:24):
this great community.
Thanks everyone and we'll seeyou next time.
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