August 27, 2025 • 34 mins
Start a law firm without a referral network? We built our marketing engine first - here's how we calculated when to launch.
Most attorneys who start a law firm rely on reputation and referrals - we had neither. Instead, we used marketing waterfalls and legal business development to calculate exactly when we could hire our first attorney. This family law practice startup guide reveals the law firm business model that actually works.
Learn the exact marketing waterfall system that took us from no clients to $17M revenue using mathematical precision instead of reputation.
📲 Subscribe Now: https://www.youtube.com/@jsterlinghughesÂ
đź“ť Get your FREE Law Firm Growth Guide: https://jsterlinghughes.com/
—
đź“„ CHAPTERSÂ
0:00 - Start a Law Firm: Building Marketing Before Opening DoorsÂ
8:21 - Family Law Practice Startup: The Denver Starbucks DecisionÂ
10:38 - Law Firm Marketing Funnel: The Roofing vs Law AnalysisÂ
12:47 - Attorney Client Acquisition: The 27-Call FormulaÂ
15:19 - Legal Marketing Strategy: Math vs Reputation ApproachÂ
17:03 - Law Firm Lead Generation: Growing Too Fast MistakeÂ
20:33 - Legal Practice Growth: Bar Complaints Crisis PointÂ
21:48 - Law Firm Business Model: Focus vs Multi-Practice Strategy
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We were so aggressive that every time we got ahead an
inch, we would spend two inchesworth of money to try to try
new things.
So we tested and tested, andtested and tested and tried new
things, constantly to the pointwhere it, I think, hurt our team
ultimately.
But we learned so much.
We learned what worked and whatdidn't work, and that
positioned us to scale Well.
(00:22):
Hello and welcome to theSterling Family Law Show.
My name is Jeff Hughes, I'm yourco-host, I'm also the CEO of
Sterling Lawyers, and today wehave my partner, tony Karls,
back on the show with us to talkabout our early years, like the
pre-starting time periodwhenever we decided to start the
law firm.
What was the thought processthat went into that?
Why did we choose law versusroughing, let's say?
(00:43):
And then how we went aboutbuilding our marketing funnel
prior to even opening the door.
So Tony's going to unpack allof that.
It's a fascinating story how welooked at it from a data
perspective rather than relyingon any other way to attract
clients, because we had no otherway to attract clients but
through our internet marketing.
So we're going to share that.
There's something applicable toeverybody, especially if you
(01:07):
want to start your law firm,your family law firm.
You're going to hear a formula,a pathway to do that, and I'm
joined by my co-host, tylerDolph, here, my partner at
RocketClick.
So, tyler, let's get going.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
What a special episode we have on the docket
today.
Our very own Tony Carls, whohas worked alongside both of us,
jeff, in building both of ourbusinesses, is with us and we're
going to have a little originstory day today.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
We love these, like comic books, that's right.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, you got to start at the beginning, and so I
want to give Tony theopportunity to tell his side of
the story, but I think there'sgoing to be a lot of fun
interaction with how he wasinvolved with both of our
businesses.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Tony's my partner If any of you listeners don't know
that from the many times Tony'sbeen on the show with me but
he's my partner in Sterling Law.
We started it together a long12 years ago whenever the idea
was germinated in our littlefertile brains, and then we
kicked it off about 11 years agoand Tony is not a lawyer.
That's kind of a uniquecharacteristic of our
partnership and so forth.
(02:08):
But it didn't begin, tony, withthe law firm.
It started years before that,when you were a young
whippersnapper joining us as anintern.
So maybe you can take us backto that part of the story.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Yeah, I mean so thinking all the way back to
2010, you're kind of coming outof the 08, 09 recession I was
still going to school.
I was going to night school, Iwas studying to be a CPA and one
of the things I needed tofinish out my degree was an
internship that had to do withdata and, for whatever reason,
(02:46):
the paid search internship thatwas offered at RocketClick slash
Sterling Satellite qualifiedwhen I talked to my advisor and
quickly fell in love withmarketing, because it was like a
combination of the second thingthat I was interested in school
, which is psychology.
So the numbers and psychologykind of all came together into
(03:06):
marketing.
I didn't really know that wasan opportunity and I think one
of the reasons I actually got inis I really bullshitted my way
through interview questionsregarding Excel and then when I
got the job offer, I literallygot Excel for dummies and
studied it before I started sothat I knew Excel.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
With your level of following on Excel.
I believe you didn't know.
You weren't born knowing it.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
No, yeah, I didn't know anything about it.
I think it was.
Nicole Menakee asked me what'syour favorite formula or
function in Excel, and I'm likeI don't know.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
They're all great.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
It sounded good enough.
And then I went and I was like,okay, if I'm going to get this
job, I better know how thisthing works.
So that's kind of how we gotconnected.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
And at the time.
Tony, just give someperspective or context on what
did the organization look likeback then.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
I think, Jeff, you can correct me on the timeline,
but I think you guys were justthrough shutting down.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Yeah, we had a business that we started in 08
that failed because it was inthe housing sector.
Of course, housing didn't do sowell in 08.
And then we closed it down in09 and kept our marketing team
from that business.
We kept four people out of thatteam and formed RocketClicks as
a digital agency.
So, tony, I think you may havebeen our first intern to join us
(04:33):
and we were a fledglingprobably a seven, eight person
team back then.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Yeah, there was.
I think there were six or sixor seven people on the team.
I was in an internship class.
There was four of us.
I like to say it's like one ofthe best internship classes that
probably ever existed, becauseall four of us are now very
successful in our own careersand somehow you guys hired all
of us at the exact same time, sobut yeah, so it was really cool
(05:00):
class to come in on very smartpeople.
I think the business was calledconsult sales at that point and
I was working on uh, I think itwas.
It was with rocket clicks, butit was working on some kind of
cell phone spoofing uh clientthat we had.
That was like tracking softwarethat track what spouses were
texting uh other people so thatthey could catch their spouse
(05:22):
cheating.
It was just like bizarrokeyword research that I was
doing, but it was superinteresting.
So that was kind of the originstory where it started and the
business was growing a ton atthat point the dish business and
that's kind of how I was ableto get more involved and have a
(05:43):
bigger impact at the firm.
I was kind of raising my handwhen you guys needed a second
shift paid search analysts thatwanted to work 2 to 10 pm and
Saturdays and Sundays.
That was kind of how I got.
I was like, well, nobody wantsthis, I'll do that.
That sounds great and, needlessto say, it was like a little.
It was probably the bestopportunity you guys had offered
(06:05):
, because I had the fewestamount of meetings and the most
amount of time to research andtest, because there was no one
there after five, so I literallyjust had all the time in the
world to not be distracted andgo super deep on a lot of things
and just for all of ourlisteners sake.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
we had a sister business called Sterling
Satellite where we sold DishNetwork, which is a competitor
to cable and direct TV and soforth.
And that was a large business,there was around 200 plus
employees and really was thecenter of all of our attention.
So RocketClicks was like a sidehustle back in those days.
And so, Tony, you ultimatelygot a job at RocketClicks and
(06:39):
then you turned that intorunning our marketing team a few
years later at Sterling, whichwas a team of eight back then.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Yeah.
So I remember when, uh, youknow that that opportunity
presented itself.
Uh, I very distinctly remembergoing into your office and
telling you I'd like the likethe opportunity.
I know I'm probably doesn't, Idon't have all the
qualifications, but, uh, I'llwork hard.
And he took a chance on me.
I think I was like the interimdirector or something.
Yeah, non-definitive, non, likeI'm not not all title, but I
(07:11):
didn't, I didn't really care andit was just a great opportunity
to continue to go and run andstart adding value to the
business.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
So it's funny to me as you're telling this part of
the story is like if anyone thatknows you today knows you is
like you know, do whatever ittakes, get anything that needs
to be done done, and it feelslike that mindset was cultivated
early on in your career Do, youagree with that.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
It didn't feel like work to me.
It felt like a reallyinteresting game that had a lot
of you could see the scoreboardbecause it was all in the data,
so it felt very fun to me.
I've always worked a lot morethan necessarily required to and
that's would be of interest toour audiences, the our family
law firm startup.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
So maybe we can kind of go to that point and and and
in particular, September of 2004, when we made the decision to
start the law firm from absolutescraps.
Like I wasn't even practicinglaw at that point, I had my
degree, I think it was on likehiatus or like some, yeah, some,
and then.
So what was the thought processon?
How did you get rolling?
(08:32):
Cause, there's a lot to applyhere to someone looking to go
off and start their own familylaw firm.
So how did you go about doingit?
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Yeah, I know, I mean we when we kind of you know you,
you, you definitely saw it, andkind of the leadership team
agreed with you on kind of wherethe trajectory of pay TV was
gone, like it was ending itslife cycle.
So before you know, before thebusiness really got hit with
that, we put together a smallteam to kind of figure out what
we were going to do next and wedid research on a bunch of
(09:00):
different things.
I think there was four of us atthe time and I think within six
months just about everybodyquit except for me.
So I get it, there was a lot ofambiguity there, not a lot of
potential job security.
The main business wascontinuing to shrink.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Sorry, just so I'm clear, was the directive from
Jeff?
All right, tony and team goresearch potential ideas of a
new business.
We can start, because we knowthis other one's ending Like
that was was that the clarityyou were given?
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Yeah, I forget who we .
We did it in the, the, the, thefront fireplace office at the
current Sterling Menominee Fallswhere we had a meeting.
I think there was six or sevenof us in that room.
We were kind of just allsitting there talking about
where we were and where weneeded to go and we came to a
decision that we need to put asmall team together and then the
next L10, we decided who thatwas going to be and we then set
(09:56):
motion transitions for currentroles and we all moved into like
a back corner of the buildingand, yeah, started working on
that project.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
So, yeah, I don back corner of the building and, uh,
yeah, started working on on thatproject.
Um, so, yeah, I don't know ifthat, well, and so now, okay,
you're doing the research.
You've decided on a law firm,right, or were there two options
?
Speaker 3 (10:17):
I seem to remember so , like we were, we researched a
bunch of different things.
The one we ended up liking themost before we were open to the
law firm when we were on abusiness trip, was a roofing
company and we had to go andpresent to our main client for
Sterling Satellite Dish Network.
Meeting didn't go that great.
(10:38):
We kind of were licking ourwounds at a Starbucks after and
Jeff's like what if we did a lawfirm?
And I think so.
That was before everybody hadleft, and I think on the on the
next day when we were flyingback home, the last guy left,
john.
He decided he was no longergoing to be part of the team.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
As I told you in the airport the very next day, he
didn't love our vision.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
So yeah, but yeah, jeff, jeff pitched that at the
Starbucks there in Denver and wecame back and did some research
and it looked really positiveoverall in terms of like what it
.
It looked a lot like roofing,except you lost the seasonality,
and especially here inWisconsin, you know you only
(11:26):
have a couple, couple months toreally run after that.
So but the there's hightransaction value, there was
longer buying cycles, it was aserious business.
There's serious purchasedecision so, and a lot of
purchase behavior emanated fromlocal, local search and the
competitive, competitive spacethere looked less mature than
(11:50):
what we were dealing with in theaffiliate space, which was
basically extraordinarilycompetitive with a lot of smart
marketers, versus kind of goinginto this local space where you
have a lot of businesses thatthey don't necessarily focus
super tremendously on theirbusiness or their processes or
their marketing.
They're just really good attheir service.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
That was the clincher , tony, for me, and my analysis
is that we felt like we had themarketing chops to go in and
compete with a lot of folks whohad jobs as lawyers.
Right, they were not marketingpeople, they were really focused
on building their firm out.
So we knew we could competewith them and do well, and that
proved out to be true.
So, and even today still, ifyou know how to market, you can
(12:30):
kill it in the family law space.
And so that's what we did andwe immediately started to grow.
So, tony, you and you architectour complete marketing system.
You put it all together andbuild it out over the ensuing 10
years.
So kind of what was the mandateand how did you go about doing
(12:51):
it relative to that?
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Yeah, at the beginning we had to figure out
when we could open and hire ourfirst person.
And we struck a relationshipwith someone in your network
that we were able to.
They allowed us to send themphone calls and we were allowed
to listen to them just so wecould understand if they were
quality or not.
And then once we got I think itwas 27 calls a week we knew we
(13:13):
could hire our first attorneyand that's kind of when we
pulled the trigger.
And several months later wefound our first person, um,
because, for you know, when Iwas a paid search analyst I know
I think it was um, I think itwas Gerald, gerald Burke uh kind
(13:35):
of showed me what a waterfalllooked like from a paid search
perspective.
And that's really what we.
It's how I really thought abouteverything, uh, moving forward,
cause it's basically everything, almost almost everything,
basically functions from awaterfall perspective.
So we understood that if we gotthis number of users and that
turned to the summer phone calls, it would turn into this number
of scheduled consults.
And then we made an assessmenton all right, if we close at 30%
(13:58):
, how many cases would we get aweek?
Does that, does that equate tobeing able to sustain a
full-time attorney?
And that's kind of the back-endmath that we back into.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
On that you mentioned just a second ago I thought I
heard you say once we got the 27phone calls from prospective
clients that's when you knew thewaterfall told you that would
render enough clients to start afirm with.
Is that yeah?
Speaker 3 (14:22):
I don't remember that number.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
So that really, I I think tell us more about that,
because the 27 calls would yield.
What was the analysis on howmany clients that would yield?
At what dollar value?
Do you recall?
Speaker 3 (14:34):
so at 27 or basically uh, for every 2.1 phone calls
you get a lead, and then youhave the throughputs from leads
to consults and then consults tofunded agreements, and that
would equate to about three anda half funded agreements per
month, which was enough to growa caseload over the course of
six months to about 35 to 40.
(14:54):
And we thought that wassustainable for hiring our first
attorney.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Okay, that's kind of how we back.
Was it 27 calls a week or 27calls a month?
Okay, that would be three and ahalf clients a week or a month.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
27 calls a month.
Okay, that would be three and ahalf clients a week or a month,
no, so that would be so that 27would end up being about 12,.
12 leads, six consults and then30% close rate is going to give
you about a little more than afile a week.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
I think just just to take a pause here, because we
talked to a lot of law firmowners who don't start their law
firm, thinking about how manyleads do I need and how many of
those leads are going to turn toconsults and consults cases.
I think it's very interestinghow you both went about starting
this from a math and dataperspective, as opposed to a lot
of law firms who are relying ontheir name and their reputation
(15:38):
and their network and goinginto the community.
That, to me, feels totallydifferent.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
That's a unique part of our story because I'm a
lawyer, so that gave us theability to start the law firm
right and own it.
But I had no reputationwhatsoever.
No one knew I hadn't beenpracticing in seven or eight
years, so we were completelyflat footed.
We could rely on no referrals.
I had very few relationships,even left from my days, so this
was a complete math equationthat we had to figure out from
(16:05):
the get go to start it.
So in that sense there's a lotof times not relatable to other
people, but that was like anyonecan do that you can.
You can work with marketersthat can start from help.
You start from nothing to getgoing.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Yeah, I would say the mistake we made about in that
that, um, I'm sure you talked alittle bit about when you guys
did your.
Your origin story, jeff, was um, we saw how good the data
looked, uh, in the waterfall,with a lot of different practice
areas and we grew way too fastand we weren't very good.
(16:40):
So, um, yeah, that was that wasa.
That was a big mistake.
You know, I think I forget theexact saying.
I know you've said it before,but I think it's like pigs get
pigs get fat and hogs getslaughtered or something like
that.
We were definitely I thinkthat's a Marshall.
You've been saying that.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
I've repeated many times because we love that.
So, yeah, we.
So what you built enabled us tojust completely turn gas on a
fire and we grew from zeroattorneys when we started in
June of what?
Four or no, june of 05?
, 04, right, 04, excuse me andwe went to eight lawyers in the
first 18 months and the phonewas just ringing constantly and
(17:21):
we were doing everything.
It was chaos and we were doingeverything.
It was chaos and it it was.
We were terrible.
Frankly, we were only good infamily law with a few attorneys.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Yeah, I mean what showed up.
What showed up for us, I think,was in the dish business we had
very little to do after thesale with the client, like
basically nothing, essentiallyso, like we didn't have to
operationalize the service of,you know, Dish Network.
Dish did that.
(17:52):
We just did marketing.
We answered the phone, did thesale, put it in their order
entry system and somebody elsedealt with the rest.
And you know, when we startedthe law firm, we're like well,
this is the same thing.
We'll do the marketing, answerthe phone, set a counsel and the
attorneys will deal with therest.
And the reality is like that'snot how you build a business.
So we kind of quickly ran intothat reality.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
I think it's really important that we stay in this
kind of like first-year firefighting, because I think a lot
of attorneys find themselvesthere when they start their own
firm or they leave a big firmand then they go to, you know, a
smaller firm.
There's a lot of chaos thathappens in those early days.
And, tony, you were kind ofhandling marketing and
operations, is that right?
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Yeah, I mean I was.
I answered the phones when wefirst started.
That's kind of what.
What happened?
It was me and, like we hired,jody and Kelly and us three
answered the phones.
So we also, you know, Iremember, I distinctly remember
when we got our first consult,one of us knew what to do.
So cause we never had a personcome into our office before for
(18:56):
a consultation it was we alljust kind of looked at each
other so, and then we escortedthem in and asked them if they
wanted coffee, and Dan went inand executed the consult.
We were all super excited.
I don't think the client hiredus.
So opportunity for improvement.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
And you were just there in the trenches, right.
Every new issue meant a newprocess, yes, or meant hey, we
got to learn from this, orwhatever it was, and like that's
startup mentality.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Yeah, 100%.
It was a lot of unknown,unknown and we just kept
encountering that over and overagain.
And you know we, you know wepaid the penalty for that in,
you know not being superprofitable for many years and
like that's, that's the reality.
(19:45):
We were built, we were buildinga big, big engine and we had so
much unknown, unknown in ouryou know Johari window and you
know, every month or two monthswe like I'm like, oh look,
here's another thing we had noclue about.
How do we deal with thisproblem?
So you know, that's why youknow it's exciting what we're
doing over here at RocketClicksand there's like a lot of
(20:08):
lessons that we can help peopleavoid, in kind of just learning
from what we've already paid theprice to learn.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
So you have this period of absolute growth zero
to eight attorneys and Jeff didtouch on this, his origin story,
but you had this moment of likewe can't do this anymore Was
that you and Jeff sit in a roomand just have this like what are
we doing here, guys, and whatlike tell us about that kind of
that little window of time?
Speaker 3 (20:36):
I think it was.
I think it was our third OLRcomplaint that we got all three.
I think all three of them werein criminal, I think it was.
I actually think it was all thesame person, but we didn't
really know how to manage uhattorney, so like there may be
issues with that individual, butit was more of the issue was on
our ability to manage andidentify that we had problems in
the first place, um, and wejust hated the fact that we felt
(20:59):
super average Like.
We felt like uh I don't know, Ialways describe it as I felt
like a Walmart was like justsuper average, not great
products, they're okay, they're,they do the job, but no one's
like run into the hills andsaying you know, I bought my,
(21:22):
bought my new kicks at Walmart.
So that's kind of how it feltto me.
I don't know if that's how youremember it.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Embarrassing Cause we were getting not only the the
bar complaints with the state.
That's kind of how it felt tome, I don't know if that's how
you remember it embarrassingbecause we were getting not only
the the bar complaints with thestate regulators, but we're
getting tons of clientcomplaints that didn't escalate
to that.
So we're just constantlydealing with the sloppy work and
we didn't know what we weredoing, how to manage them, we
didn't know how to build out aprocess for that stuff, and so
we decided that we're gonna cutit way down and do just family,
(21:43):
where we can focus on one areaand become great at that, and so
that was the sacrifice we hadto make.
It was tough.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
You flew across country.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Right, we rose them down in Miami and came back in
the next week.
So we're going to do this,we're going to rip the bandaid
and we're going to literally cuthalf our firm out.
Let them go and refund clientsand shrink down to four
attorneys from eight and startover.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Yeah, and I mean that was.
It was a.
It was a hard, it was a hardmoment, but it was also a.
Really looking back it was itwas definitely the right
decision because that year we,we, our revenue was flat.
We did that in Februarybruary.
We, we cut up about 40 of ourbusiness and by the end of the
year we had the same revenue aswe had the prior year, because
(22:30):
we really focused and then wereally started to see our growth
happen.
Because we were justimplementing systems for the
same product line over and overand over again, instead of, you
know, creating a system forcriminal and for personal injury
and for family and for estateplanning and every other thing
that we were trying to do didn'twork.
(22:50):
We just had like a real generalsystem, not a whole lot of
opportunities for our intaketeam to be good or attorneys to
have good sales materials in theconsultation room.
Like there was just a lot ofopportunity that was missed on
the front end.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Tony, what did you learn about yourself during
those days and how did you haveto grow as a leader?
Have you grown as a leaderbecause of those?
Speaker 3 (23:14):
experiences.
I guess the thing I learned,the lesson I probably took away
the most, was how importantfocus was.
Because of the outcome withinthat same year that was.
I doubted that we were going tobe able to go that fast and we
went a lot faster than I thinkwe both thought was possible.
(23:37):
So it was.
It was also humbling, um, justknowing how much we didn't know
Um, and that's been like a.
I'm really good, you knowthere's a, there's an acronym F,
afo, really good at that.
But that doesn't necessarilymean just because I'm a step
(23:58):
ahead of the team doesn't mean Iknow, I actually know where
we're going, um, and like that'sbeen, you know, over the years
that's been something that I'vebeen kind of focused on getting
out of the way, cause there'sopportunities to do things
differently and better with alot more strategic insight than
just muscle around trying tofigure it out and hoping it
(24:19):
works.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Jeff, you know being the attorney and the owner of
this firm and, you know,co-founder with Tony.
How did you navigate and watch,tony?
You know navigate these watersand build the firm.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Well, we did it shoulder to shoulder.
I mean, we were making the samemistakes.
We agreed on all the mistakesthat we made, so it wasn't like
he was alone in making thosescrew ups.
We both kind of shared in thein the carnage a little bit
there.
And I would agree with you,tony, that focus was probably
the dominant lesson we learnedpulling coming out of that year,
yeah, and the other one wasthat we were so aggressive that
(24:54):
every time we got ahead an inchwe would spend two inches worth
of money to try to try newthings.
So we we tested and tested andtested and tested and tried new
things constantly to the pointwhere it, I think, hurt our team
ultimately because theycouldn't.
It was like whiplash city, butwe learned so much.
We learned what worked and whatdidn't work, and that
positioned us to scale.
(25:15):
So I don't know how much of Icould go back and say I would
change right, but maybe thecommunication around it we would
have got better at rather thanjust jamming things through.
We just so similar experience.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Yeah, I think like on that.
I think, looking back to how wecommunicate and kind of get the
team behind initiatives andideas, it's more collaborative
at least for me than it was inthe past, cause you can, I can
get a lot more done when theteam's bought in and they feel
(25:52):
like it's part of their idea.
I'm just like I'm going to runand around this to the finish
line myself and I'll pull youalong.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
I think one of the things I, I quote, would regret
I don't regret a whole lot, butI no-transcript.
(26:25):
We can think through decisionsrather than just make them quick
.
That took us years to work outof those bad habits in those
areas.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Yeah, I mean, I don't think it was until at least for
me.
I don't think I truly had anappreciation for what the
timeline it took to build theteam up so that we could
actually grow, until we gotinvolved with Jeff Curlin and,
like that was years later justkept getting frustrated.
Why can't we do this, gettingmad about the realities of where
(26:57):
the team was and we're.
We're trying to run fast andthe team's trying to walk and
that's like let's just walkfirst.
It's like, yeah, that fast.
And the team's trying to walkand that's like let's just walk
first.
It's like, yeah, that probablywould have been better, they
would have been more motivated,probably could learn faster.
Um, so you know, it's justthat's a different, you know
that's an art that's.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
That was not understood, at least on my end,
or very well at the beginning so, as I'm listening to this and
and I'm assuming you know ourlisteners they they may be
thinking like, hey, this focusthing sounds good.
Maybe I want to transition myfirm from multi-practice to
single practice and I want todouble down on this.
What advice or lessons can yougive our listeners as it relates
(27:38):
to making that transition?
Maybe some lessons learned fromyour experience.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Making that transition, maybe some lessons
learned from your experience.
I think it's important forthere to be like a reason why,
like a belief on why you want togo in a certain direction.
I think focus is important, butI don't think I think it's
meaningless if there's not.
Like you can't connect itemotionally to a why because
there's no story to tell them.
And like people will justifyhiring an attorney logically,
(28:04):
but it's an extraordinarilyemotional decision.
If you don't have like a a goodstory on why you're doing what
you're doing and connecting thatto your mission and then living
that out through everything youdo, it's hard to uh, it's hard
to make that focus authenticwould be kind of what I'd say,
um, be kind of what I'd say.
(28:32):
So you know, I think I thinkthe focus is important, but
starting from a point of likewhat am I really passionate
about?
And building around, buildingaround that and getting focused
around that, like coupling thosetwo things, is really powerful.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
You guys didn't pick family bias.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Our best talent was in family law Holly Tricia and
yeah, our best talent was infamily law.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
I know I have a I have a super broken family.
So it connected specificallywith my my history, history and
past and, like I can see how youknow an attorney that had more
empowerment oriented mission intheir service delivery would
have had a different impact onhow my situation was.
(29:12):
So like there was for me,that's kind of where it was real
easy to connect with with itbecause I experienced it on my
own and then we had really goodassets there.
It was clear they were goodbecause that was the feedback
they were getting from clientsand they were actually making a
difference for the client.
So it was like it was easy tobe more passionate and
authentically real with that Ican add something to that
(29:33):
strategically about focus.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
I'm obviously a big proponent of focusing.
I think you do better when youdo that, but I will acknowledge
that there's a lot of ways towin.
You can have a multi-practiceand multidisciplinary practice
and win.
I would contend and argue and Ithink I could show you this
from data that if you focus yourfirm it's less stressful, with
better margins ultimately, and Ithink the growth is the same.
(29:58):
And the age-old argument amonglawyers is well, I want to add
PI onto that, I want to bolt PIon in case that big once in a
lifetime case comes through.
And I think that I get theargument.
I just don't know if it reallyplays out over a lifetime.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
Yeah, I wouldn't disagree with that.
I 100% agree with that.
So I think there's as we'veseen that in our own firm and as
we've helped clients with that,they grow faster.
That's just what happens.
So I think they grow with morequality.
It's easier, more predictable.
You're not experiencing newproblems all the time.
(30:36):
You're experiencing the sameissue and now you have more
nuance on the solution everysingle time.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
So, tony, you were able to assist in the growth of
Sterling and obviously, thetremendous results that they
have today, and ultimately, Iwas able to convince you to come
over and help us do the samething at Rocket Clicks for
family law firms all over thecountry.
So tell us a little bit abouttransitioning out of the law
firm, maybe thinking, oh, Idon't have to work with
attorneys anymore, to now workwith attorneys every day, get to
(31:04):
work with attorneys, that'sright Hurt my feelings.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
So, yeah, I mean, after we pivoted, our growth was
pretty fast and like I reallystart, I started feeling out of
my element, I think about thethird year that we grew, because
I think we had almost almostthree straight years of 60 to
(31:34):
100 percent growth and we got.
We went from like 1.7 to threeand a half to six to nine and
I'm like holy smokes, thisbusiness is way bigger than I
have any experience doing.
And that's that's right aroundthe same timeline when we got
connected with Jeff Curlin andthat's when I could see like how
far off, from an experientialperspective, I was from being
(31:56):
able to lead, lead the team andhe was he coaches for I forget
how long we were engaged withhim.
I think you started with him,jeff, and then I got involved
with them and then we were ableto bring him on to the firm and
that kind of created theopportunity for us to connect.
(32:16):
So I'm kind of seeing how he'scontinued to lead the firm and
build a leadership team has beena really good model for me in
terms of how we're building andgrowing Rocket Clicks and all
the technical knowledge that welearned over at the law firm.
That's easily transferable.
(32:36):
It's like it's the building ofthe company thing that I think
is harder.
Because it's easy to do thingswith a couple of people.
It's really hard to do it witha large group.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Yeah, the non-attorney leader is something
that you guys have obviouslysubscribed to, both in Tony and
now in Jeff Kerlin.
Jeff Hughes, do you see that asa unique differentiator?
I certainly don't talk to a lotof law firm owners that have a
non-attorney leader, adifferentiator in a sense, of
the clients don't care aboutthat.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
So in that sense I don't see it as a marketing
advantage.
It certainly has given us abusiness advantage.
I mean, just the law of numbersare going to tell you that
there are more astute businesspeople in the general market
than among lawyers.
Just because of the nature ofyou know the percentage of
lawyers in the market versuspeople that are really good in
business.
(33:24):
So I would say that themajority of firms would benefit
from having a non-lawyer leaderof the firm.
From a business team buildingstandpoint, if they want to grow
beyond a couple lawyers, Ithink they would benefit from
having a non-lawyer involved.
Generally, there's always aunicorn among the lawyers who's
great at both, outside of thosefew, certainly.
(33:46):
That's true in our case and Ithink I would have probably
fancied myself, as you know,more business experience than
most lawyers because of myexperience, right, but I still
had a.
I still there's a big gapbetween me and Jeff when it
comes to scaling and buildingout teams and culture and so
forth.
So we've benefited enormouslyfrom that and we were super open
(34:07):
to it, obviously because mypartner here, tony, is a
non-lawyer.
So we already predisposed towhat's the best solution in that
way.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
There's a little teaser for our next episode.
Jeff Curlin is going to join us.
We're going to talk all aboutthe non-attorney leadership kind
of lifestyle that we've builtover here.
But Tony appreciate obviouslyyour time and insights and
experience and everything you'vegiven to both of us across the
firms.
We were so aggressive that every time we got ahead an
inch, we would spend two inchesworth of money to try to try
new things.
So we tested and tested, andtested and tested and tried new
things, constantly to the pointwhere it, I think, hurt our team
ultimately.
But we learned so much.
We learned what worked and whatdidn't work, and that
positioned us to scale Well.
(00:22):
Hello and welcome to theSterling Family Law Show.
My name is Jeff Hughes, I'm yourco-host, I'm also the CEO of
Sterling Lawyers, and today wehave my partner, tony Karls,
back on the show with us to talkabout our early years, like the
pre-starting time periodwhenever we decided to start the
law firm.
What was the thought processthat went into that?
Why did we choose law versusroughing, let's say?
(00:43):
And then how we went aboutbuilding our marketing funnel
prior to even opening the door.
So Tony's going to unpack allof that.
It's a fascinating story how welooked at it from a data
perspective rather than relyingon any other way to attract
clients, because we had no otherway to attract clients but
through our internet marketing.
So we're going to share that.
There's something applicable toeverybody, especially if you
(01:07):
want to start your law firm,your family law firm.
You're going to hear a formula,a pathway to do that, and I'm
joined by my co-host, tylerDolph, here, my partner at
RocketClick.
So, tyler, let's get going.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
What a special episode we have on the docket
today.
Our very own Tony Carls, whohas worked alongside both of us,
jeff, in building both of ourbusinesses, is with us and we're
going to have a little originstory day today.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
We love these, like comic books, that's right.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, you got to start at the beginning, and so I
want to give Tony theopportunity to tell his side of
the story, but I think there'sgoing to be a lot of fun
interaction with how he wasinvolved with both of our
businesses.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Tony's my partner If any of you listeners don't know
that from the many times Tony'sbeen on the show with me but
he's my partner in Sterling Law.
We started it together a long12 years ago whenever the idea
was germinated in our littlefertile brains, and then we
kicked it off about 11 years agoand Tony is not a lawyer.
That's kind of a uniquecharacteristic of our
partnership and so forth.
(02:08):
But it didn't begin, tony, withthe law firm.
It started years before that,when you were a young
whippersnapper joining us as anintern.
So maybe you can take us backto that part of the story.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Yeah, I mean so thinking all the way back to
2010, you're kind of coming outof the 08, 09 recession I was
still going to school.
I was going to night school, Iwas studying to be a CPA and one
of the things I needed tofinish out my degree was an
internship that had to do withdata and, for whatever reason,
(02:46):
the paid search internship thatwas offered at RocketClick slash
Sterling Satellite qualifiedwhen I talked to my advisor and
quickly fell in love withmarketing, because it was like a
combination of the second thingthat I was interested in school
, which is psychology.
So the numbers and psychologykind of all came together into
(03:06):
marketing.
I didn't really know that wasan opportunity and I think one
of the reasons I actually got inis I really bullshitted my way
through interview questionsregarding Excel and then when I
got the job offer, I literallygot Excel for dummies and
studied it before I started sothat I knew Excel.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
With your level of following on Excel.
I believe you didn't know.
You weren't born knowing it.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
No, yeah, I didn't know anything about it.
I think it was.
Nicole Menakee asked me what'syour favorite formula or
function in Excel, and I'm likeI don't know.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
They're all great.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
It sounded good enough.
And then I went and I was like,okay, if I'm going to get this
job, I better know how thisthing works.
So that's kind of how we gotconnected.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
And at the time.
Tony, just give someperspective or context on what
did the organization look likeback then.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
I think, Jeff, you can correct me on the timeline,
but I think you guys were justthrough shutting down.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Yeah, we had a business that we started in 08
that failed because it was inthe housing sector.
Of course, housing didn't do sowell in 08.
And then we closed it down in09 and kept our marketing team
from that business.
We kept four people out of thatteam and formed RocketClicks as
a digital agency.
So, tony, I think you may havebeen our first intern to join us
(04:33):
and we were a fledglingprobably a seven, eight person
team back then.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Yeah, there was.
I think there were six or sixor seven people on the team.
I was in an internship class.
There was four of us.
I like to say it's like one ofthe best internship classes that
probably ever existed, becauseall four of us are now very
successful in our own careersand somehow you guys hired all
of us at the exact same time, sobut yeah, so it was really cool
(05:00):
class to come in on very smartpeople.
I think the business was calledconsult sales at that point and
I was working on uh, I think itwas.
It was with rocket clicks, butit was working on some kind of
cell phone spoofing uh clientthat we had.
That was like tracking softwarethat track what spouses were
texting uh other people so thatthey could catch their spouse
(05:22):
cheating.
It was just like bizarrokeyword research that I was
doing, but it was superinteresting.
So that was kind of the originstory where it started and the
business was growing a ton atthat point the dish business and
that's kind of how I was ableto get more involved and have a
(05:43):
bigger impact at the firm.
I was kind of raising my handwhen you guys needed a second
shift paid search analysts thatwanted to work 2 to 10 pm and
Saturdays and Sundays.
That was kind of how I got.
I was like, well, nobody wantsthis, I'll do that.
That sounds great and, needlessto say, it was like a little.
It was probably the bestopportunity you guys had offered
(06:05):
, because I had the fewestamount of meetings and the most
amount of time to research andtest, because there was no one
there after five, so I literallyjust had all the time in the
world to not be distracted andgo super deep on a lot of things
and just for all of ourlisteners sake.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
we had a sister business called Sterling
Satellite where we sold DishNetwork, which is a competitor
to cable and direct TV and soforth.
And that was a large business,there was around 200 plus
employees and really was thecenter of all of our attention.
So RocketClicks was like a sidehustle back in those days.
And so, Tony, you ultimatelygot a job at RocketClicks and
(06:39):
then you turned that intorunning our marketing team a few
years later at Sterling, whichwas a team of eight back then.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Yeah.
So I remember when, uh, youknow that that opportunity
presented itself.
Uh, I very distinctly remembergoing into your office and
telling you I'd like the likethe opportunity.
I know I'm probably doesn't, Idon't have all the
qualifications, but, uh, I'llwork hard.
And he took a chance on me.
I think I was like the interimdirector or something.
Yeah, non-definitive, non, likeI'm not not all title, but I
(07:11):
didn't, I didn't really care andit was just a great opportunity
to continue to go and run andstart adding value to the
business.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
So it's funny to me as you're telling this part of
the story is like if anyone thatknows you today knows you is
like you know, do whatever ittakes, get anything that needs
to be done done, and it feelslike that mindset was cultivated
early on in your career Do, youagree with that.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
It didn't feel like work to me.
It felt like a reallyinteresting game that had a lot
of you could see the scoreboardbecause it was all in the data,
so it felt very fun to me.
I've always worked a lot morethan necessarily required to and
that's would be of interest toour audiences, the our family
law firm startup.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
So maybe we can kind of go to that point and and and
in particular, September of 2004, when we made the decision to
start the law firm from absolutescraps.
Like I wasn't even practicinglaw at that point, I had my
degree, I think it was on likehiatus or like some, yeah, some,
and then.
So what was the thought processon?
How did you get rolling?
(08:32):
Cause, there's a lot to applyhere to someone looking to go
off and start their own familylaw firm.
So how did you go about doingit?
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Yeah, I know, I mean we when we kind of you know you,
you, you definitely saw it, andkind of the leadership team
agreed with you on kind of wherethe trajectory of pay TV was
gone, like it was ending itslife cycle.
So before you know, before thebusiness really got hit with
that, we put together a smallteam to kind of figure out what
we were going to do next and wedid research on a bunch of
(09:00):
different things.
I think there was four of us atthe time and I think within six
months just about everybodyquit except for me.
So I get it, there was a lot ofambiguity there, not a lot of
potential job security.
The main business wascontinuing to shrink.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Sorry, just so I'm clear, was the directive from
Jeff?
All right, tony and team goresearch potential ideas of a
new business.
We can start, because we knowthis other one's ending Like
that was was that the clarityyou were given?
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Yeah, I forget who we .
We did it in the, the, the, thefront fireplace office at the
current Sterling Menominee Fallswhere we had a meeting.
I think there was six or sevenof us in that room.
We were kind of just allsitting there talking about
where we were and where weneeded to go and we came to a
decision that we need to put asmall team together and then the
next L10, we decided who thatwas going to be and we then set
(09:56):
motion transitions for currentroles and we all moved into like
a back corner of the buildingand, yeah, started working on
that project.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
So, yeah, I don back corner of the building and, uh,
yeah, started working on on thatproject.
Um, so, yeah, I don't know ifthat, well, and so now, okay,
you're doing the research.
You've decided on a law firm,right, or were there two options
?
Speaker 3 (10:17):
I seem to remember so , like we were, we researched a
bunch of different things.
The one we ended up liking themost before we were open to the
law firm when we were on abusiness trip, was a roofing
company and we had to go andpresent to our main client for
Sterling Satellite Dish Network.
Meeting didn't go that great.
(10:38):
We kind of were licking ourwounds at a Starbucks after and
Jeff's like what if we did a lawfirm?
And I think so.
That was before everybody hadleft, and I think on the on the
next day when we were flyingback home, the last guy left,
john.
He decided he was no longergoing to be part of the team.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
As I told you in the airport the very next day, he
didn't love our vision.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
So yeah, but yeah, jeff, jeff pitched that at the
Starbucks there in Denver and wecame back and did some research
and it looked really positiveoverall in terms of like what it
.
It looked a lot like roofing,except you lost the seasonality,
and especially here inWisconsin, you know you only
(11:26):
have a couple, couple months toreally run after that.
So but the there's hightransaction value, there was
longer buying cycles, it was aserious business.
There's serious purchasedecision so, and a lot of
purchase behavior emanated fromlocal, local search and the
competitive, competitive spacethere looked less mature than
(11:50):
what we were dealing with in theaffiliate space, which was
basically extraordinarilycompetitive with a lot of smart
marketers, versus kind of goinginto this local space where you
have a lot of businesses thatthey don't necessarily focus
super tremendously on theirbusiness or their processes or
their marketing.
They're just really good attheir service.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
That was the clincher , tony, for me, and my analysis
is that we felt like we had themarketing chops to go in and
compete with a lot of folks whohad jobs as lawyers.
Right, they were not marketingpeople, they were really focused
on building their firm out.
So we knew we could competewith them and do well, and that
proved out to be true.
So, and even today still, ifyou know how to market, you can
(12:30):
kill it in the family law space.
And so that's what we did andwe immediately started to grow.
So, tony, you and you architectour complete marketing system.
You put it all together andbuild it out over the ensuing 10
years.
So kind of what was the mandateand how did you go about doing
(12:51):
it relative to that?
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Yeah, at the beginning we had to figure out
when we could open and hire ourfirst person.
And we struck a relationshipwith someone in your network
that we were able to.
They allowed us to send themphone calls and we were allowed
to listen to them just so wecould understand if they were
quality or not.
And then once we got I think itwas 27 calls a week we knew we
(13:13):
could hire our first attorneyand that's kind of when we
pulled the trigger.
And several months later wefound our first person, um,
because, for you know, when Iwas a paid search analyst I know
I think it was um, I think itwas Gerald, gerald Burke uh kind
(13:35):
of showed me what a waterfalllooked like from a paid search
perspective.
And that's really what we.
It's how I really thought abouteverything, uh, moving forward,
cause it's basically everything, almost almost everything,
basically functions from awaterfall perspective.
So we understood that if we gotthis number of users and that
turned to the summer phone calls, it would turn into this number
of scheduled consults.
And then we made an assessmenton all right, if we close at 30%
(13:58):
, how many cases would we get aweek?
Does that, does that equate tobeing able to sustain a
full-time attorney?
And that's kind of the back-endmath that we back into.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
On that you mentioned just a second ago I thought I
heard you say once we got the 27phone calls from prospective
clients that's when you knew thewaterfall told you that would
render enough clients to start afirm with.
Is that yeah?
Speaker 3 (14:22):
I don't remember that number.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
So that really, I I think tell us more about that,
because the 27 calls would yield.
What was the analysis on howmany clients that would yield?
At what dollar value?
Do you recall?
Speaker 3 (14:34):
so at 27 or basically uh, for every 2.1 phone calls
you get a lead, and then youhave the throughputs from leads
to consults and then consults tofunded agreements, and that
would equate to about three anda half funded agreements per
month, which was enough to growa caseload over the course of
six months to about 35 to 40.
(14:54):
And we thought that wassustainable for hiring our first
attorney.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Okay, that's kind of how we back.
Was it 27 calls a week or 27calls a month?
Okay, that would be three and ahalf clients a week or a month.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
27 calls a month.
Okay, that would be three and ahalf clients a week or a month,
no, so that would be so that 27would end up being about 12,.
12 leads, six consults and then30% close rate is going to give
you about a little more than afile a week.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
I think just just to take a pause here, because we
talked to a lot of law firmowners who don't start their law
firm, thinking about how manyleads do I need and how many of
those leads are going to turn toconsults and consults cases.
I think it's very interestinghow you both went about starting
this from a math and dataperspective, as opposed to a lot
of law firms who are relying ontheir name and their reputation
(15:38):
and their network and goinginto the community.
That, to me, feels totallydifferent.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
That's a unique part of our story because I'm a
lawyer, so that gave us theability to start the law firm
right and own it.
But I had no reputationwhatsoever.
No one knew I hadn't beenpracticing in seven or eight
years, so we were completelyflat footed.
We could rely on no referrals.
I had very few relationships,even left from my days, so this
was a complete math equationthat we had to figure out from
(16:05):
the get go to start it.
So in that sense there's a lotof times not relatable to other
people, but that was like anyonecan do that you can.
You can work with marketersthat can start from help.
You start from nothing to getgoing.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Yeah, I would say the mistake we made about in that
that, um, I'm sure you talked alittle bit about when you guys
did your.
Your origin story, jeff, was um, we saw how good the data
looked, uh, in the waterfall,with a lot of different practice
areas and we grew way too fastand we weren't very good.
(16:40):
So, um, yeah, that was that wasa.
That was a big mistake.
You know, I think I forget theexact saying.
I know you've said it before,but I think it's like pigs get
pigs get fat and hogs getslaughtered or something like
that.
We were definitely I thinkthat's a Marshall.
You've been saying that.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
I've repeated many times because we love that.
So, yeah, we.
So what you built enabled us tojust completely turn gas on a
fire and we grew from zeroattorneys when we started in
June of what?
Four or no, june of 05?
, 04, right, 04, excuse me andwe went to eight lawyers in the
first 18 months and the phonewas just ringing constantly and
(17:21):
we were doing everything.
It was chaos and we were doingeverything.
It was chaos and it it was.
We were terrible.
Frankly, we were only good infamily law with a few attorneys.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Yeah, I mean what showed up.
What showed up for us, I think,was in the dish business we had
very little to do after thesale with the client, like
basically nothing, essentiallyso, like we didn't have to
operationalize the service of,you know, Dish Network.
Dish did that.
(17:52):
We just did marketing.
We answered the phone, did thesale, put it in their order
entry system and somebody elsedealt with the rest.
And you know, when we startedthe law firm, we're like well,
this is the same thing.
We'll do the marketing, answerthe phone, set a counsel and the
attorneys will deal with therest.
And the reality is like that'snot how you build a business.
So we kind of quickly ran intothat reality.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
I think it's really important that we stay in this
kind of like first-year firefighting, because I think a lot
of attorneys find themselvesthere when they start their own
firm or they leave a big firmand then they go to, you know, a
smaller firm.
There's a lot of chaos thathappens in those early days.
And, tony, you were kind ofhandling marketing and
operations, is that right?
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Yeah, I mean I was.
I answered the phones when wefirst started.
That's kind of what.
What happened?
It was me and, like we hired,jody and Kelly and us three
answered the phones.
So we also, you know, Iremember, I distinctly remember
when we got our first consult,one of us knew what to do.
So cause we never had a personcome into our office before for
(18:56):
a consultation it was we alljust kind of looked at each
other so, and then we escortedthem in and asked them if they
wanted coffee, and Dan went inand executed the consult.
We were all super excited.
I don't think the client hiredus.
So opportunity for improvement.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
And you were just there in the trenches, right.
Every new issue meant a newprocess, yes, or meant hey, we
got to learn from this, orwhatever it was, and like that's
startup mentality.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Yeah, 100%.
It was a lot of unknown,unknown and we just kept
encountering that over and overagain.
And you know we, you know wepaid the penalty for that in,
you know not being superprofitable for many years and
like that's, that's the reality.
(19:45):
We were built, we were buildinga big, big engine and we had so
much unknown, unknown in ouryou know Johari window and you
know, every month or two monthswe like I'm like, oh look,
here's another thing we had noclue about.
How do we deal with thisproblem?
So you know, that's why youknow it's exciting what we're
doing over here at RocketClicksand there's like a lot of
(20:08):
lessons that we can help peopleavoid, in kind of just learning
from what we've already paid theprice to learn.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
So you have this period of absolute growth zero
to eight attorneys and Jeff didtouch on this, his origin story,
but you had this moment of likewe can't do this anymore Was
that you and Jeff sit in a roomand just have this like what are
we doing here, guys, and whatlike tell us about that kind of
that little window of time?
Speaker 3 (20:36):
I think it was.
I think it was our third OLRcomplaint that we got all three.
I think all three of them werein criminal, I think it was.
I actually think it was all thesame person, but we didn't
really know how to manage uhattorney, so like there may be
issues with that individual, butit was more of the issue was on
our ability to manage andidentify that we had problems in
the first place, um, and wejust hated the fact that we felt
(20:59):
super average Like.
We felt like uh I don't know, Ialways describe it as I felt
like a Walmart was like justsuper average, not great
products, they're okay, they're,they do the job, but no one's
like run into the hills andsaying you know, I bought my,
(21:22):
bought my new kicks at Walmart.
So that's kind of how it feltto me.
I don't know if that's how youremember it.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Embarrassing Cause we were getting not only the the
bar complaints with the state.
That's kind of how it felt tome, I don't know if that's how
you remember it embarrassingbecause we were getting not only
the the bar complaints with thestate regulators, but we're
getting tons of clientcomplaints that didn't escalate
to that.
So we're just constantlydealing with the sloppy work and
we didn't know what we weredoing, how to manage them, we
didn't know how to build out aprocess for that stuff, and so
we decided that we're gonna cutit way down and do just family,
(21:43):
where we can focus on one areaand become great at that, and so
that was the sacrifice we hadto make.
It was tough.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
You flew across country.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Right, we rose them down in Miami and came back in
the next week.
So we're going to do this,we're going to rip the bandaid
and we're going to literally cuthalf our firm out.
Let them go and refund clientsand shrink down to four
attorneys from eight and startover.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Yeah, and I mean that was.
It was a.
It was a hard, it was a hardmoment, but it was also a.
Really looking back it was itwas definitely the right
decision because that year we,we, our revenue was flat.
We did that in Februarybruary.
We, we cut up about 40 of ourbusiness and by the end of the
year we had the same revenue aswe had the prior year, because
(22:30):
we really focused and then wereally started to see our growth
happen.
Because we were justimplementing systems for the
same product line over and overand over again, instead of, you
know, creating a system forcriminal and for personal injury
and for family and for estateplanning and every other thing
that we were trying to do didn'twork.
(22:50):
We just had like a real generalsystem, not a whole lot of
opportunities for our intaketeam to be good or attorneys to
have good sales materials in theconsultation room.
Like there was just a lot ofopportunity that was missed on
the front end.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Tony, what did you learn about yourself during
those days and how did you haveto grow as a leader?
Have you grown as a leaderbecause of those?
Speaker 3 (23:14):
experiences.
I guess the thing I learned,the lesson I probably took away
the most, was how importantfocus was.
Because of the outcome withinthat same year that was.
I doubted that we were going tobe able to go that fast and we
went a lot faster than I thinkwe both thought was possible.
(23:37):
So it was.
It was also humbling, um, justknowing how much we didn't know
Um, and that's been like a.
I'm really good, you knowthere's a, there's an acronym F,
afo, really good at that.
But that doesn't necessarilymean just because I'm a step
(23:58):
ahead of the team doesn't mean Iknow, I actually know where
we're going, um, and like that'sbeen, you know, over the years
that's been something that I'vebeen kind of focused on getting
out of the way, cause there'sopportunities to do things
differently and better with alot more strategic insight than
just muscle around trying tofigure it out and hoping it
(24:19):
works.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Jeff, you know being the attorney and the owner of
this firm and, you know,co-founder with Tony.
How did you navigate and watch,tony?
You know navigate these watersand build the firm.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Well, we did it shoulder to shoulder.
I mean, we were making the samemistakes.
We agreed on all the mistakesthat we made, so it wasn't like
he was alone in making thosescrew ups.
We both kind of shared in thein the carnage a little bit
there.
And I would agree with you,tony, that focus was probably
the dominant lesson we learnedpulling coming out of that year,
yeah, and the other one wasthat we were so aggressive that
(24:54):
every time we got ahead an inchwe would spend two inches worth
of money to try to try newthings.
So we we tested and tested andtested and tested and tried new
things constantly to the pointwhere it, I think, hurt our team
ultimately because theycouldn't.
It was like whiplash city, butwe learned so much.
We learned what worked and whatdidn't work, and that
positioned us to scale.
(25:15):
So I don't know how much of Icould go back and say I would
change right, but maybe thecommunication around it we would
have got better at rather thanjust jamming things through.
We just so similar experience.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Yeah, I think like on that.
I think, looking back to how wecommunicate and kind of get the
team behind initiatives andideas, it's more collaborative
at least for me than it was inthe past, cause you can, I can
get a lot more done when theteam's bought in and they feel
(25:52):
like it's part of their idea.
I'm just like I'm going to runand around this to the finish
line myself and I'll pull youalong.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
I think one of the things I, I quote, would regret
I don't regret a whole lot, butI no-transcript.
(26:25):
We can think through decisionsrather than just make them quick
.
That took us years to work outof those bad habits in those
areas.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Yeah, I mean, I don't think it was until at least for
me.
I don't think I truly had anappreciation for what the
timeline it took to build theteam up so that we could
actually grow, until we gotinvolved with Jeff Curlin and,
like that was years later justkept getting frustrated.
Why can't we do this, gettingmad about the realities of where
(26:57):
the team was and we're.
We're trying to run fast andthe team's trying to walk and
that's like let's just walkfirst.
It's like, yeah, that fast.
And the team's trying to walkand that's like let's just walk
first.
It's like, yeah, that probablywould have been better, they
would have been more motivated,probably could learn faster.
Um, so you know, it's justthat's a different, you know
that's an art that's.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
That was not understood, at least on my end,
or very well at the beginning so, as I'm listening to this and
and I'm assuming you know ourlisteners they they may be
thinking like, hey, this focusthing sounds good.
Maybe I want to transition myfirm from multi-practice to
single practice and I want todouble down on this.
What advice or lessons can yougive our listeners as it relates
(27:38):
to making that transition?
Maybe some lessons learned fromyour experience.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Making that transition, maybe some lessons
learned from your experience.
I think it's important forthere to be like a reason why,
like a belief on why you want togo in a certain direction.
I think focus is important, butI don't think I think it's
meaningless if there's not.
Like you can't connect itemotionally to a why because
there's no story to tell them.
And like people will justifyhiring an attorney logically,
(28:04):
but it's an extraordinarilyemotional decision.
If you don't have like a a goodstory on why you're doing what
you're doing and connecting thatto your mission and then living
that out through everything youdo, it's hard to uh, it's hard
to make that focus authenticwould be kind of what I'd say,
um, be kind of what I'd say.
(28:32):
So you know, I think I thinkthe focus is important, but
starting from a point of likewhat am I really passionate
about?
And building around, buildingaround that and getting focused
around that, like coupling thosetwo things, is really powerful.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
You guys didn't pick family bias.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Our best talent was in family law Holly Tricia and
yeah, our best talent was infamily law.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
I know I have a I have a super broken family.
So it connected specificallywith my my history, history and
past and, like I can see how youknow an attorney that had more
empowerment oriented mission intheir service delivery would
have had a different impact onhow my situation was.
(29:12):
So like there was for me,that's kind of where it was real
easy to connect with with itbecause I experienced it on my
own and then we had really goodassets there.
It was clear they were goodbecause that was the feedback
they were getting from clientsand they were actually making a
difference for the client.
So it was like it was easy tobe more passionate and
authentically real with that Ican add something to that
(29:33):
strategically about focus.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
I'm obviously a big proponent of focusing.
I think you do better when youdo that, but I will acknowledge
that there's a lot of ways towin.
You can have a multi-practiceand multidisciplinary practice
and win.
I would contend and argue and Ithink I could show you this
from data that if you focus yourfirm it's less stressful, with
better margins ultimately, and Ithink the growth is the same.
(29:58):
And the age-old argument amonglawyers is well, I want to add
PI onto that, I want to bolt PIon in case that big once in a
lifetime case comes through.
And I think that I get theargument.
I just don't know if it reallyplays out over a lifetime.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
Yeah, I wouldn't disagree with that.
I 100% agree with that.
So I think there's as we'veseen that in our own firm and as
we've helped clients with that,they grow faster.
That's just what happens.
So I think they grow with morequality.
It's easier, more predictable.
You're not experiencing newproblems all the time.
(30:36):
You're experiencing the sameissue and now you have more
nuance on the solution everysingle time.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
So, tony, you were able to assist in the growth of
Sterling and obviously, thetremendous results that they
have today, and ultimately, Iwas able to convince you to come
over and help us do the samething at Rocket Clicks for
family law firms all over thecountry.
So tell us a little bit abouttransitioning out of the law
firm, maybe thinking, oh, Idon't have to work with
attorneys anymore, to now workwith attorneys every day, get to
(31:04):
work with attorneys, that'sright Hurt my feelings.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
So, yeah, I mean, after we pivoted, our growth was
pretty fast and like I reallystart, I started feeling out of
my element, I think about thethird year that we grew, because
I think we had almost almostthree straight years of 60 to
(31:34):
100 percent growth and we got.
We went from like 1.7 to threeand a half to six to nine and
I'm like holy smokes, thisbusiness is way bigger than I
have any experience doing.
And that's that's right aroundthe same timeline when we got
connected with Jeff Curlin andthat's when I could see like how
far off, from an experientialperspective, I was from being
(31:56):
able to lead, lead the team andhe was he coaches for I forget
how long we were engaged withhim.
I think you started with him,jeff, and then I got involved
with them and then we were ableto bring him on to the firm and
that kind of created theopportunity for us to connect.
(32:16):
So I'm kind of seeing how he'scontinued to lead the firm and
build a leadership team has beena really good model for me in
terms of how we're building andgrowing Rocket Clicks and all
the technical knowledge that welearned over at the law firm.
That's easily transferable.
(32:36):
It's like it's the building ofthe company thing that I think
is harder.
Because it's easy to do thingswith a couple of people.
It's really hard to do it witha large group.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Yeah, the non-attorney leader is something
that you guys have obviouslysubscribed to, both in Tony and
now in Jeff Kerlin.
Jeff Hughes, do you see that asa unique differentiator?
I certainly don't talk to a lotof law firm owners that have a
non-attorney leader, adifferentiator in a sense, of
the clients don't care aboutthat.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
So in that sense I don't see it as a marketing
advantage.
It certainly has given us abusiness advantage.
I mean, just the law of numbersare going to tell you that
there are more astute businesspeople in the general market
than among lawyers.
Just because of the nature ofyou know the percentage of
lawyers in the market versuspeople that are really good in
business.
(33:24):
So I would say that themajority of firms would benefit
from having a non-lawyer leaderof the firm.
From a business team buildingstandpoint, if they want to grow
beyond a couple lawyers, Ithink they would benefit from
having a non-lawyer involved.
Generally, there's always aunicorn among the lawyers who's
great at both, outside of thosefew, certainly.
(33:46):
That's true in our case and Ithink I would have probably
fancied myself, as you know,more business experience than
most lawyers because of myexperience, right, but I still
had a.
I still there's a big gapbetween me and Jeff when it
comes to scaling and buildingout teams and culture and so
forth.
So we've benefited enormouslyfrom that and we were super open
(34:07):
to it, obviously because mypartner here, tony, is a
non-lawyer.
So we already predisposed towhat's the best solution in that
way.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
There's a little teaser for our next episode.
Jeff Curlin is going to join us.
We're going to talk all aboutthe non-attorney leadership kind
of lifestyle that we've builtover here.
But Tony appreciate obviouslyyour time and insights and
experience and everything you'vegiven to both of us across the
firms.
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