September 16, 2025 • 24 mins
Discover how Florida Women's Law Group went from general practice chaos to exponential growth by niching down and creating avatar clarity.
Most family law firms try to serve everyone and end up serving no one well. This niche law firm marketing approach shows how targeted law firm positioning strategy drives better hires, clearer messaging, and sustainable family law practice growth through women-focused legal services.
Here’s the real transformation story from Heather's journey building a specialized practice that actually works.
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📝 Schedule a FREE Family Law Firm Audit: rocketclicks.com/schedule-a-family-law-quick-audit
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📄 CHAPTERS
0:00 - Women Only Law Firm Introduction: Florida Women's Law Group Story
1:54 - From General Practice to Niche Law Firm Marketing Strategy
4:18 - Law Firm Avatar Targeting: Why Specialization Accelerated Growth
7:24 - Divorce Law firm Branding: When Marketing Companies Say "Too Niche"
8:44 - Family Law Firm Specialization: Three Avatar Strategy That Works
18:22 - Women Divorce Attorney Hiring Filters and Culture Building
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Heather has built a women-only law firm that targets
and focuses only on women goingthrough a divorce.
I loved the interview we hadand I really hope you enjoy it.
Welcome back to the RevenueRoadmap.
My name is Tyler Dolph and I amthe CEO of our agency, rocket
(00:21):
Clicks.
We also own and operateSterling Lawyers, which has
grown to over 30 attorneysacross 25 offices in Wisconsin
and Illinois.
We are continuing our interviewseries and Heather has an
amazing firm.
She has built a woman-only firmthat works exclusively with
(00:42):
women going through a divorce,and I talked to her about the
focus, the creating a culturearound the avatar that she wants
to work with, and she has someamazing insights and also some
awesome energy.
Heather, you were starting tointroduce yourself and your
amazing firm and the awesomeniche that you have built.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Give us a little background on that firm and the
awesome niche that you havebuilt.
Give us a little background onthat.
So Florida Women's Law Group iswhen we represent only women
going through divorce and familylaw issues and by women.
We're all women attorneys andall women employees and we've
really tried to build a spacewhere we can anticipate the
(01:23):
patterns that women go throughin a divorce family law issue
and really meet their needs.
But also looking at theirparticular legal issue really is
an opportunity for them toachieve more in their life and
achieve their goals.
So I really take more of apositive spin on their current
(01:44):
situation as far as what theirfuture can hold.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
I love it.
Was it always like?
Did you build the firmintentionally to always have
that focus, or did that happen?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
It happened organically.
I mean, I did a lot of businesscoaching and had some great
groups as I was building thefirm and you know, a lot of the
advice was niche.
And yes, of course I was doingfamily law, but like what
everybody else does andrepresenting both sides.
But what I then learned, and bydoing it, is I prefer to
(02:18):
represent women.
I don't hate men, I have noproblem with men, I just want to
help women.
And I saw I was recognizing apattern where the women seemed
to give up too soon and maybedidn't value what they brought
to the table.
And I felt like, no, youdeserve this, like we're going
(02:40):
to stand up for you.
And so I was kind of like I can, you know, be your strength.
I can do this for you if you'rewilling to hang in there and
trust us to do it.
And so that's what started that.
And then it really comes fromthe fact that my mom was married
several times and divorced andI, you know, had a front row
(03:01):
seat to that.
And as I was realizing thesewomen, I was like, oh my God,
that's what my mom did Justwalked away, give up the kids
and all this, and it's like,well, now you have no money, so
you've got to stand up and fightfor the stuff that pays the
bills, and so just really,that's where it really inspired.
(03:21):
I was a little nervous.
I didn't want to be cheesy orseen as a gimmick, but I was
like I really know this is whatI want to do, and I just we did
it.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Oh, that's so similar experience.
At our law firm.
We were all everything toeveryone when we started,
because we knew we couldgenerate leads.
That was like our secret sauce,right, and so we would generate
leads across all thesedifferent practice areas.
But then, like you, we startedbecause we knew we could
generate leads.
That was like our secret sauce,right, and so we would generate
leads across all thesedifferent practice areas.
But then, like you, we startedto realize that actually we
really love the opportunity tohelp families during this
difficult period, and so we atone point, like 10 years ago,
(03:58):
gave back, cut half of our staffand went only family law fixed
fee and, similar to you, startedto feel that momentum because
we had decided on an avatar, wehad decided on a niche and
really were able to grow ourfirm exponentially from there.
And I'm wondering if the samething happened to you.
(04:19):
Once you made that decisiondecided to start marketing only
to women did you feel like themomentum of your firm
accelerated?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I did, I did and I still had the growing pains
right.
It's getting the right people atthe right time and, you know,
to help with the growth and also, for myself, just become a more
educated consumer of themarketing, of the things I
needed to do to better fuel thebusiness and have a little
(04:50):
patience, you know, right, likean understanding.
Okay, I got to take some time onthis level of marketing and
wait for it, but then thingsreally started to build and I
think it was when I really sawthe momentum shift was making
better hires to really supportthe organization and better
(05:16):
attorneys, and then me myselfbecoming better leader, a better
person who creates a betterculture, and you know that
attracts better people.
They want to stay and thenwe're able to feel that momentum
and that, I think, is acontinual cycle.
And you know, people, they livetheir lives right and we just
(05:39):
try.
You know you find these greatpeople.
You want them to stay foreverand they't always.
And then life, you know, doesintersect, but we've worked very
hard on that to make it a placewhere people are working with
like-minded people that theywant to be with and um and and
do this work for women and andhelp in our clients be a little
(05:59):
bit tougher a little stronger.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
I think that the fact that you have a niche and an
avatar and you have this passionbehind helping women probably
really helps you in the hiringprocess.
That helps you in the interviewprocess, because you know
exactly what you're looking forright.
You don't just need a that ispassionate about helping women
(06:23):
specifically.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
And in that, you know , I always ask those questions,
but then you have to really diginto it, and there are a lot of
areas in your firm and and notall women, you know, may feel
that way and, and it might notshow up right away they think
they do, or they tell you theydo, and then later, as it goes
on, they just they don't maybe,you know, have as enough of a
(06:47):
passion or patience, um, youknow when, when things get busy
and stuff.
So, yeah, it really does,though, because it can be like,
well, why, why do you care aboutwomen?
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Well, I never really thought of it or whatever it's
like.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
well, you gotta have a better answer than that.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
A hundred percent.
That's a that's really cool.
Uh, we haven't.
We talked to a lot of law firmowners all the time and we
haven't had one that is sospecific and specialized, um,
which I think is is great.
I think from a marketingperspective it's really cool.
Have you found that it'schanged your like, the channels
that you advertise it and whereyou go to market and all of that
?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Totally and at and this is the funniest thing, or
the greatest thing, I guess,because, right, I have my law
degree and I've invested in alot of business learning,
obviously to grow the firm.
But there are a lot ofmarketing companies out there
and one told me one time which Iwon't mention who it was when
(07:44):
their marketing was not workingonline their digital stuff
because I was too specific, Iwas too niched, I was like I'm
not, you just aren't, so youcan't stop bringing you, keep
bringing me male clients, keepcalling and that is not who
we're looking to hire.
Because you have an algorithmand we're not fitting into your
thing, so it does, and it allowsus to be so specific that then
(08:09):
the companies that are reallygood at what they do they're
like.
This makes it almost easier forus, and you know, and then we
drill down and we have aboutthree different, you know,
avatars that we're looking at.
You've got your breadwinner,and then you've got your
(08:34):
stay-at-home mom, and thenyou've got your breadwinner, and
then you've got yourstay-at-home mom, and then
you've got your dual income,because they all have all three
of those have very differentneeds and concerns and fears,
and so then we're really able totap into that and talk to them
and let them know that we canmeet you where you are, we can
help you.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Really great Talk to me about the process of growing
your firm and having to become aleader and instill a culture.
You know there's a lot of solopractitioners that want to grow
and oftentimes they're thebottleneck right.
They don't want to let go ofthe vine, they don't want to
install process and invest in ateam.
How did you, how did you gothrough that experience?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Well, I, I will say I have made, I made tons of
mistakes, right, and I I tend tosee more potential in people
than maybe they do and they have.
And so sometimes you want, yousee, you think somebody can be
that person and they may believeit, but not as much they don't
want it and they can't do it.
So a lot of trial and error andthen, but then there's there,
but you got to keep going and Ithink that's where a lot of solo
practitioners you never canhire a lawyer, these lawyers
(09:35):
these days don't work, thennobody's gonna work, nobody's
gonna.
And you have to have some faith, trust.
People learn from the mistakes.
I've certainly learned andtrying to make our mistakes less
expensive as I go.
But you know, I also had toinvest in myself, so that you
know, in the early days, justhustle, hustle, hustle, working
(09:56):
so hard and I had very littlepatience for staff, right, I've
also got three children, dogsand a husband, and so there's a
lot going on, right.
So I was like guys, like youjust got to come, do your job
and I I'm not going to yell atyou or curse at you, but like
don't ask me for a whole lotmore right Like do your job.
There's a million things goingon, but that was also because I
(10:20):
was doing so much of the legalwork all the marketing,
everything and running thebusiness so I had to give up
some stuff.
I certainly had to realize thatI'm really great, I'm a great
lawyer, but I can hire somebodywho's great too, and I can also
train them and I can give upsome of that.
(10:41):
That is not all about my ego,and I can actually be so much
happier and have so much moreharmony in my life if I don't
have to take every case and thathelped a lot and to say no to
clients when they're like well,I'm only hiring.
If Heather takes my case andit's like, well, then I'm not.
This is not the place for you,because I have got so many
(11:05):
things that now I've got to doand you can't text me about your
case and want to talk on theweekends Like that's just not
going to happen.
I got to have boundaries, sothat took a lot of learning, but
then as I could delegate moreand smart you know more, smarter
(11:27):
, not smartly, but anyway as Icould do that better, I could
have more peace.
And then I really just investeda lot of in myself.
I did a lot of Tony Robbinscoaching to be a more open,
patient, forgiving boss, becausethere was a time and I've got
(11:53):
my.
I luckily have two employeeswho've been there the whole time
.
This will be like their 12thyear with me and so they've seen
they're like, oh, this is waynicer, heather.
But they stuck with me becauseI think they believed in what we
were doing and they gave megrace and allowed me to become
better at that.
(12:13):
And I have to work through itand you know it's not easy.
But you know I have a Chihuahuanow, had Chihuahuas growing up
and got Chihuahua during thepandemic and I dress her up and
I put her in a purse and I bringher to the office and it makes
me really happy, makes me very,very happy, and so you got to
find things that bring you joy.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
I love it.
That's awesome.
I think the part I heard mostfrom you there is you got to
have the motivation to want toimprove, to want to grow, to
want to be something more thanyou are today even if you're
amazing today, right Like.
But having that drive iseverything.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Right and I just knew like, okay, just being a great
attorney is not going to beenough for me, because I'm going
to be in court every day, likeI'm going to be just like always
doing that versus wow, I'm soimpressed with my attorneys,
like that's just so fulfillingbecause, like, look at them, go
and look at what they can do andreally all our support staff
(13:12):
and the way they have helped mebuild something so huge, like
they trusted me, that just takesyou to a whole, nother level of
fulfillment.
And all these women have greatjobs.
They're able to adjust theirlives with their children, like
that.
That gives me, you know, a lot,a lot of satisfaction.
(13:35):
And like hey, I'm, I am notonly for our clients, but also
for our employees.
We are doing all that.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
That's so good, that's so great.
So I'm thinking about the younglaw student or young attorney
trying to grow their firm,thinking about what's next in
their career.
What advice do you have forthem as they continue on their
journey in trying to be asuccessful lawyer like you?
Speaker 2 (14:00):
trying to be a successful lawyer like you.
So, I think, to allow yourselfto find what you love, like,
what, what's fun?
I mean and I use the word funbecause, gosh, you got to have
some fun I mean I loved being aprosecutor, like that was so fun
(14:22):
, and picking juries and arguingcross-examining I was taking it
super seriously, tyler, andthese were misdemeanors and man,
I was going for the max, right,but yet it lit that fire.
And then I didn't really everbelieve this is going to be the
path family law and divorce forwomen.
But I was open to the path thatwas before me and and I wasn't,
(14:46):
and I took that leap.
I wasn't afraid to say you knowwhat?
This is what I like, this iswhat I want to do.
Now let me get the education onhow to run a business.
But, like, allow yourself tohave some fun, right, and no,
and nobody says that aboutlawyers right, nobody calls us
fun.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
No, rarely used.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
I know which is we get such a bad rap.
I really don't like the lawyerjokes.
I do not allow my family totell them in front of me because
I was like they're just nottrue.
And let's tell jokes aboutdoctors or accountants Like
right, why do we get such a badrap?
Speaker 1 (15:18):
I agree.
I mean, I love your energy.
I can see why you know likewomen will graduate or gravitate
towards your firm.
Um, it's, it's so interestingthat it's like you've built your
practice as an extension of youas a human.
Do you feel like that wasintentional or did it just kind
of happen?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
I think it it it happened somewhat naturally.
But then I was like, yes, Ithink it happened somewhat
naturally.
But then I was like, yes, youknow, like okay, this is the way
we're doing it and this is myhome office.
So this is fun with the pinkand everything, but, oh my gosh,
our main office, which we'renow almost done building our new
one, but it is you, everybodylikes it, women and men, but I
(16:01):
mean really we only, you know,have women, but it's like we
have a salt, salt wall.
Because I was like I want youto feel at peace and like super
healthy for you, and I justthought it was the coolest thing
.
So when we got the office,we're now my husband's a
contractor, so that does help,and I was like I gotta have a
salt wall.
I was like I gotta have one,like I don't ask you why, like I
have to, and it's a wall ofsalt.
I don't it's a wall of himalayansalt bricks and so they're all,
(16:23):
and I mean we don't go lickingit.
You could people say you couldlick it like I.
I don't, I don't really, youknow, encourage that but but.
But it's good for the air, it'shealing, like they're salt spas
there are.
It's something that you'll seein different wellness areas, but
I was like I gotta have one.
I know we're the only attorneyuntil office, until they hear us
.
You should have a salt wall, andso our new office, now I get
(16:46):
even two, we have the one whenyou walk in, and I have a little
mini salt wall in my office andI'll send you a picture Once we
move in.
It's all done.
But so, yeah, when we did thisone, it is an extension of me,
like it represents like the wayI want to feel right when I walk
in somewhere and I don't wantto feel like all stuffy with all
(17:08):
the brown stuff and books thatjust clog up and collect a lot
of dust on the wall, like youknow, I mean, we have our
diplomas still, though, butthey're pretty, and but you know
, you're supposed to want tofeel welcoming, like who I was,
and you know I realized that,like I probably wouldn't want a
bunch of me working for me.
So you know, obviously we havea lot of great personalities and
(17:29):
everyone brings their owncharacteristics into the firm,
but I feel like it is very muchan extension of me and my
beliefs and values, and so youknow, and then I think that was
what attracts the rightemployees and clients.
Like I want some of that.
That's the way I want to feel.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
That's great and and that's going to we talk about
when we're hiring.
We talk about filters a lot andleveraging filters as a way to
find the right employees andpush away the wrong employees,
and I think some people you knowthat rubs them the wrong way
because like, oh, you shouldlove everyone, but that's not
how you run a business right.
You got to have the people whobelieve in your mission and you
(18:09):
got to push away those who don't, and so it feels like you've
set up a lot of great filters inyour organization and your firm
to find people that arebelieving in your mission and
are ready for the cause.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yes, and just for the young attorneys, I'll tell you
what helps is not having me doall the hiring Because, like I
said, one, I know we need peopleand I unrealistically see all
the potential in everybody,which then I set myself up to be
let down.
So you've got to have thoseother filters and they believe
(18:42):
and that's what they want andthey see it.
And you know we've started witha lot of positions.
It's like just a test run.
Like you know, we'll pay youjust to train for half a day,
like let's really see if youlike it, because you may not
know, as part of the interviewprocess for a lot of the
positions, and that is reallyhelpful because they need to be
sure, like you need to be sureas best you can, that this is
(19:09):
where you want to be, becausewe're working really hard to
have somebody here.
And yeah, you know.
And then for it's like our youknow our admin team and our
sales team, like they're greatto you know, give their gut
check on somebody new, like yousaid, because it's like, like
it's not the right person, it'sjust it's not good for anybody.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
It's never good for anybody the cost of a bad hire
is just way too high these daysit's way too high.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
It's way too high and shoot.
I don't want somebody leaving ajob that they have and then
coming here and then it notworks out and then they have to
go through that.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
I don't want that you know, If I can avoid it 100%, I
totally agree, and so having areally strong hiring process is
so key.
But you know, to the point Iwas making earlier, having that
filter and that culture and thatbelief of this is who we want
and this is who we are is reallygoing to help in that hiring
process.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yes, it does, because you know that's the idea, right
?
They teach us that in marketing, we want to attract the right
people and repel the ones whodon't want this.
They'll be like oh my God, no,we don't want any of that.
Good, then, that's good, likeyou're going to go find another
firm that's better for you,right?
That's the messaging, and samefor people who don't want to
(20:20):
work with us.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Like I don't want to do that.
Good, don't waste anybody'stime, that's so good.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
There should be somebody right.
You know there's a business foryou.
That's better for you to workfor.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Oh, preach, I'm so, so glad to hear you agree with
that.
It's just got to happen.
So, as we're kind of likefinishing up here, tell us about
the future of your firm.
I've like just love and adoreeverything you're doing.
I so appreciate what's coming.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Well, oh, so many things.
And, yeah, now we'll have twosalt walls and so we have this
beautiful new big office coming.
And you know, we're stillgrowing and but you know, growth
for just growth sake is notnecessarily what we want.
You know, we're always tryingto do better right and deliver
more services to our clients.
(21:09):
You know, we're doing thepodcast, which I don't know if I
mentioned that, but I have apodcast called Women Winning
Divorce.
I think this might be yearthree, I lose track, but I think
so.
I don't know, but it's greatand that's really giving us a
lot of traction.
(21:30):
And so I have an idea that I'mgoing to write a great book.
Great, and that's really givingus a lot of traction.
And so you know, I have an ideathat I'm going to write a great
book and then we're going to goon tour and put the podcast on
the road and the book and maybecreate something that inspires
women just all over the world,and so that's like the next
level.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
That's like the big, audacious goal.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
I love that.
What do you think that lookslike Like when you sit there and
imagine?
Is it seminars?
Is it events?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
I think could be seminars and events and creating
a space for women.
You know, because the podcastcalled Women Winning Divorce,
because, as you know, manyattorneys love to say, right and
nobody wins, nobody wins, andit's just like.
That's just not true.
That's not true Because you canwin and that's not by making
someone else lose, because youcan achieve your goals and very
(22:25):
often in a divorce they canstill get their way.
You can get your way, maybe not100%, but a lot the part like
the main things that are superimportant to you.
And and I think it's really I'mvery competitive, so I do love
to win, but yet like that's whatwe tell our attorney Well, the
attorneys too, and the clientslike don't hire me to lose, like
I'm not going to lose, likewe're going to do what it takes
(22:47):
to win, if, if that's somethingwe can achieve.
And we sometimes have, like hey,who had a win today, because
there is a time in my life whengetting my kids to school and
preschool without totallymelting, that was a win.
I wasn't totally melting becauseI'm fully dressed for court,
(23:09):
hair and makeup and getting themin and out of the car seats and
in where they have to go ontime and me getting on time,
that's a huge win and we shouldcelebrate, because too often we
don't celebrate the littlethings, but they just make up
your day, your life.
It's all the little moments andas women, I think sometimes
we're so hard on ourselves andwe don't give ourselves enough
(23:32):
credit for look at what you'redoing and that is a win, and I
think that we can.
We can all win, and I reallywant women to win at life.
I want my employees to win atlife.
It's like you know we ask themwhat does that mean to you?
Because it means somethingdifferent to everybody.
But to sit in there is likebeing defeated, like a victim,
like nobody can win.
Well, if that's yourperspective, that's fine, but
(23:54):
that's not mine.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
You're not going to be on our team yeah, yeah.
Oh man, I wish we had like ninehours, because I want to hear
so much more about you and yourfirm.
I'm so so grateful that youwere able to give us this time,
heather.
I would love to have you backon so that we could take a
deeper dive into the firm, but Ireally appreciate your time
today and I look forward totalking to you soon.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Thank you so much.
This has been a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to check out
our owner operator interviewseries that we have.
We do these every single week.
We're interviewing law firmowners and allowing them to
share their stories, their wins,their losses, and today was no
different.
Make sure to check out the nextone we have, as it is one you
don't want to miss.
Heather has built a women-only law firm that targets
and focuses only on women goingthrough a divorce.
I loved the interview we hadand I really hope you enjoy it.
Welcome back to the RevenueRoadmap.
My name is Tyler Dolph and I amthe CEO of our agency, rocket
(00:21):
Clicks.
We also own and operateSterling Lawyers, which has
grown to over 30 attorneysacross 25 offices in Wisconsin
and Illinois.
We are continuing our interviewseries and Heather has an
amazing firm.
She has built a woman-only firmthat works exclusively with
(00:42):
women going through a divorce,and I talked to her about the
focus, the creating a culturearound the avatar that she wants
to work with, and she has someamazing insights and also some
awesome energy.
Heather, you were starting tointroduce yourself and your
amazing firm and the awesomeniche that you have built.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Give us a little background on that firm and the
awesome niche that you havebuilt.
Give us a little background onthat.
So Florida Women's Law Group iswhen we represent only women
going through divorce and familylaw issues and by women.
We're all women attorneys andall women employees and we've
really tried to build a spacewhere we can anticipate the
(01:23):
patterns that women go throughin a divorce family law issue
and really meet their needs.
But also looking at theirparticular legal issue really is
an opportunity for them toachieve more in their life and
achieve their goals.
So I really take more of apositive spin on their current
(01:44):
situation as far as what theirfuture can hold.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
I love it.
Was it always like?
Did you build the firmintentionally to always have
that focus, or did that happen?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
It happened organically.
I mean, I did a lot of businesscoaching and had some great
groups as I was building thefirm and you know, a lot of the
advice was niche.
And yes, of course I was doingfamily law, but like what
everybody else does andrepresenting both sides.
But what I then learned, and bydoing it, is I prefer to
(02:18):
represent women.
I don't hate men, I have noproblem with men, I just want to
help women.
And I saw I was recognizing apattern where the women seemed
to give up too soon and maybedidn't value what they brought
to the table.
And I felt like, no, youdeserve this, like we're going
(02:40):
to stand up for you.
And so I was kind of like I can, you know, be your strength.
I can do this for you if you'rewilling to hang in there and
trust us to do it.
And so that's what started that.
And then it really comes fromthe fact that my mom was married
several times and divorced andI, you know, had a front row
(03:01):
seat to that.
And as I was realizing thesewomen, I was like, oh my God,
that's what my mom did Justwalked away, give up the kids
and all this, and it's like,well, now you have no money, so
you've got to stand up and fightfor the stuff that pays the
bills, and so just really,that's where it really inspired.
(03:21):
I was a little nervous.
I didn't want to be cheesy orseen as a gimmick, but I was
like I really know this is whatI want to do, and I just we did
it.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Oh, that's so similar experience.
At our law firm.
We were all everything toeveryone when we started,
because we knew we couldgenerate leads.
That was like our secret sauce,right, and so we would generate
leads across all thesedifferent practice areas.
But then, like you, we startedbecause we knew we could
generate leads.
That was like our secret sauce,right, and so we would generate
leads across all thesedifferent practice areas.
But then, like you, we startedto realize that actually we
really love the opportunity tohelp families during this
difficult period, and so we atone point, like 10 years ago,
(03:58):
gave back, cut half of our staffand went only family law fixed
fee and, similar to you, startedto feel that momentum because
we had decided on an avatar, wehad decided on a niche and
really were able to grow ourfirm exponentially from there.
And I'm wondering if the samething happened to you.
(04:19):
Once you made that decisiondecided to start marketing only
to women did you feel like themomentum of your firm
accelerated?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I did, I did and I still had the growing pains
right.
It's getting the right people atthe right time and, you know,
to help with the growth and also, for myself, just become a more
educated consumer of themarketing, of the things I
needed to do to better fuel thebusiness and have a little
(04:50):
patience, you know, right, likean understanding.
Okay, I got to take some time onthis level of marketing and
wait for it, but then thingsreally started to build and I
think it was when I really sawthe momentum shift was making
better hires to really supportthe organization and better
(05:16):
attorneys, and then me myselfbecoming better leader, a better
person who creates a betterculture, and you know that
attracts better people.
They want to stay and thenwe're able to feel that momentum
and that, I think, is acontinual cycle.
And you know, people, they livetheir lives right and we just
(05:39):
try.
You know you find these greatpeople.
You want them to stay foreverand they't always.
And then life, you know, doesintersect, but we've worked very
hard on that to make it a placewhere people are working with
like-minded people that theywant to be with and um and and
do this work for women and andhelp in our clients be a little
(05:59):
bit tougher a little stronger.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
I think that the fact that you have a niche and an
avatar and you have this passionbehind helping women probably
really helps you in the hiringprocess.
That helps you in the interviewprocess, because you know
exactly what you're looking forright.
You don't just need a that ispassionate about helping women
(06:23):
specifically.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
And in that, you know , I always ask those questions,
but then you have to really diginto it, and there are a lot of
areas in your firm and and notall women, you know, may feel
that way and, and it might notshow up right away they think
they do, or they tell you theydo, and then later, as it goes
on, they just they don't maybe,you know, have as enough of a
(06:47):
passion or patience, um, youknow when, when things get busy
and stuff.
So, yeah, it really does,though, because it can be like,
well, why, why do you care aboutwomen?
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Well, I never really thought of it or whatever it's
like.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
well, you gotta have a better answer than that.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
A hundred percent.
That's a that's really cool.
Uh, we haven't.
We talked to a lot of law firmowners all the time and we
haven't had one that is sospecific and specialized, um,
which I think is is great.
I think from a marketingperspective it's really cool.
Have you found that it'schanged your like, the channels
that you advertise it and whereyou go to market and all of that
?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Totally and at and this is the funniest thing, or
the greatest thing, I guess,because, right, I have my law
degree and I've invested in alot of business learning,
obviously to grow the firm.
But there are a lot ofmarketing companies out there
and one told me one time which Iwon't mention who it was when
(07:44):
their marketing was not workingonline their digital stuff
because I was too specific, Iwas too niched, I was like I'm
not, you just aren't, so youcan't stop bringing you, keep
bringing me male clients, keepcalling and that is not who
we're looking to hire.
Because you have an algorithmand we're not fitting into your
thing, so it does, and it allowsus to be so specific that then
(08:09):
the companies that are reallygood at what they do they're
like.
This makes it almost easier forus, and you know, and then we
drill down and we have aboutthree different, you know,
avatars that we're looking at.
You've got your breadwinner,and then you've got your
(08:34):
stay-at-home mom, and thenyou've got your breadwinner, and
then you've got yourstay-at-home mom, and then
you've got your dual income,because they all have all three
of those have very differentneeds and concerns and fears,
and so then we're really able totap into that and talk to them
and let them know that we canmeet you where you are, we can
help you.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Really great Talk to me about the process of growing
your firm and having to become aleader and instill a culture.
You know there's a lot of solopractitioners that want to grow
and oftentimes they're thebottleneck right.
They don't want to let go ofthe vine, they don't want to
install process and invest in ateam.
How did you, how did you gothrough that experience?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Well, I, I will say I have made, I made tons of
mistakes, right, and I I tend tosee more potential in people
than maybe they do and they have.
And so sometimes you want, yousee, you think somebody can be
that person and they may believeit, but not as much they don't
want it and they can't do it.
So a lot of trial and error andthen, but then there's there,
but you got to keep going and Ithink that's where a lot of solo
practitioners you never canhire a lawyer, these lawyers
(09:35):
these days don't work, thennobody's gonna work, nobody's
gonna.
And you have to have some faith, trust.
People learn from the mistakes.
I've certainly learned andtrying to make our mistakes less
expensive as I go.
But you know, I also had toinvest in myself, so that you
know, in the early days, justhustle, hustle, hustle, working
(09:56):
so hard and I had very littlepatience for staff, right, I've
also got three children, dogsand a husband, and so there's a
lot going on, right.
So I was like guys, like youjust got to come, do your job
and I I'm not going to yell atyou or curse at you, but like
don't ask me for a whole lotmore right Like do your job.
There's a million things goingon, but that was also because I
(10:20):
was doing so much of the legalwork all the marketing,
everything and running thebusiness so I had to give up
some stuff.
I certainly had to realize thatI'm really great, I'm a great
lawyer, but I can hire somebodywho's great too, and I can also
train them and I can give upsome of that.
(10:41):
That is not all about my ego,and I can actually be so much
happier and have so much moreharmony in my life if I don't
have to take every case and thathelped a lot and to say no to
clients when they're like well,I'm only hiring.
If Heather takes my case andit's like, well, then I'm not.
This is not the place for you,because I have got so many
(11:05):
things that now I've got to doand you can't text me about your
case and want to talk on theweekends Like that's just not
going to happen.
I got to have boundaries, sothat took a lot of learning, but
then as I could delegate moreand smart you know more, smarter
(11:27):
, not smartly, but anyway as Icould do that better, I could
have more peace.
And then I really just investeda lot of in myself.
I did a lot of Tony Robbinscoaching to be a more open,
patient, forgiving boss, becausethere was a time and I've got
(11:53):
my.
I luckily have two employeeswho've been there the whole time
.
This will be like their 12thyear with me and so they've seen
they're like, oh, this is waynicer, heather.
But they stuck with me becauseI think they believed in what we
were doing and they gave megrace and allowed me to become
better at that.
(12:13):
And I have to work through itand you know it's not easy.
But you know I have a Chihuahuanow, had Chihuahuas growing up
and got Chihuahua during thepandemic and I dress her up and
I put her in a purse and I bringher to the office and it makes
me really happy, makes me very,very happy, and so you got to
find things that bring you joy.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
I love it.
That's awesome.
I think the part I heard mostfrom you there is you got to
have the motivation to want toimprove, to want to grow, to
want to be something more thanyou are today even if you're
amazing today, right Like.
But having that drive iseverything.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Right and I just knew like, okay, just being a great
attorney is not going to beenough for me, because I'm going
to be in court every day, likeI'm going to be just like always
doing that versus wow, I'm soimpressed with my attorneys,
like that's just so fulfillingbecause, like, look at them, go
and look at what they can do andreally all our support staff
(13:12):
and the way they have helped mebuild something so huge, like
they trusted me, that just takesyou to a whole, nother level of
fulfillment.
And all these women have greatjobs.
They're able to adjust theirlives with their children, like
that.
That gives me, you know, a lot,a lot of satisfaction.
(13:35):
And like hey, I'm, I am notonly for our clients, but also
for our employees.
We are doing all that.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
That's so good, that's so great.
So I'm thinking about the younglaw student or young attorney
trying to grow their firm,thinking about what's next in
their career.
What advice do you have forthem as they continue on their
journey in trying to be asuccessful lawyer like you?
Speaker 2 (14:00):
trying to be a successful lawyer like you.
So, I think, to allow yourselfto find what you love, like,
what, what's fun?
I mean and I use the word funbecause, gosh, you got to have
some fun I mean I loved being aprosecutor, like that was so fun
(14:22):
, and picking juries and arguingcross-examining I was taking it
super seriously, tyler, andthese were misdemeanors and man,
I was going for the max, right,but yet it lit that fire.
And then I didn't really everbelieve this is going to be the
path family law and divorce forwomen.
But I was open to the path thatwas before me and and I wasn't,
(14:46):
and I took that leap.
I wasn't afraid to say you knowwhat?
This is what I like, this iswhat I want to do.
Now let me get the education onhow to run a business.
But, like, allow yourself tohave some fun, right, and no,
and nobody says that aboutlawyers right, nobody calls us
fun.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
No, rarely used.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
I know which is we get such a bad rap.
I really don't like the lawyerjokes.
I do not allow my family totell them in front of me because
I was like they're just nottrue.
And let's tell jokes aboutdoctors or accountants Like
right, why do we get such a badrap?
Speaker 1 (15:18):
I agree.
I mean, I love your energy.
I can see why you know likewomen will graduate or gravitate
towards your firm.
Um, it's, it's so interestingthat it's like you've built your
practice as an extension of youas a human.
Do you feel like that wasintentional or did it just kind
of happen?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
I think it it it happened somewhat naturally.
But then I was like, yes, Ithink it happened somewhat
naturally.
But then I was like, yes, youknow, like okay, this is the way
we're doing it and this is myhome office.
So this is fun with the pinkand everything, but, oh my gosh,
our main office, which we'renow almost done building our new
one, but it is you, everybodylikes it, women and men, but I
(16:01):
mean really we only, you know,have women, but it's like we
have a salt, salt wall.
Because I was like I want youto feel at peace and like super
healthy for you, and I justthought it was the coolest thing
.
So when we got the office,we're now my husband's a
contractor, so that does help,and I was like I gotta have a
salt wall.
I was like I gotta have one,like I don't ask you why, like I
have to, and it's a wall ofsalt.
I don't it's a wall of himalayansalt bricks and so they're all,
(16:23):
and I mean we don't go lickingit.
You could people say you couldlick it like I.
I don't, I don't really, youknow, encourage that but but.
But it's good for the air, it'shealing, like they're salt spas
there are.
It's something that you'll seein different wellness areas, but
I was like I gotta have one.
I know we're the only attorneyuntil office, until they hear us
.
You should have a salt wall, andso our new office, now I get
(16:46):
even two, we have the one whenyou walk in, and I have a little
mini salt wall in my office andI'll send you a picture Once we
move in.
It's all done.
But so, yeah, when we did thisone, it is an extension of me,
like it represents like the wayI want to feel right when I walk
in somewhere and I don't wantto feel like all stuffy with all
(17:08):
the brown stuff and books thatjust clog up and collect a lot
of dust on the wall, like youknow, I mean, we have our
diplomas still, though, butthey're pretty, and but you know
, you're supposed to want tofeel welcoming, like who I was,
and you know I realized that,like I probably wouldn't want a
bunch of me working for me.
So you know, obviously we havea lot of great personalities and
(17:29):
everyone brings their owncharacteristics into the firm,
but I feel like it is very muchan extension of me and my
beliefs and values, and so youknow, and then I think that was
what attracts the rightemployees and clients.
Like I want some of that.
That's the way I want to feel.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
That's great and and that's going to we talk about
when we're hiring.
We talk about filters a lot andleveraging filters as a way to
find the right employees andpush away the wrong employees,
and I think some people you knowthat rubs them the wrong way
because like, oh, you shouldlove everyone, but that's not
how you run a business right.
You got to have the people whobelieve in your mission and you
(18:09):
got to push away those who don't, and so it feels like you've
set up a lot of great filters inyour organization and your firm
to find people that arebelieving in your mission and
are ready for the cause.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yes, and just for the young attorneys, I'll tell you
what helps is not having me doall the hiring Because, like I
said, one, I know we need peopleand I unrealistically see all
the potential in everybody,which then I set myself up to be
let down.
So you've got to have thoseother filters and they believe
(18:42):
and that's what they want andthey see it.
And you know we've started witha lot of positions.
It's like just a test run.
Like you know, we'll pay youjust to train for half a day,
like let's really see if youlike it, because you may not
know, as part of the interviewprocess for a lot of the
positions, and that is reallyhelpful because they need to be
sure, like you need to be sureas best you can, that this is
(19:09):
where you want to be, becausewe're working really hard to
have somebody here.
And yeah, you know.
And then for it's like our youknow our admin team and our
sales team, like they're greatto you know, give their gut
check on somebody new, like yousaid, because it's like, like
it's not the right person, it'sjust it's not good for anybody.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
It's never good for anybody the cost of a bad hire
is just way too high these daysit's way too high.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
It's way too high and shoot.
I don't want somebody leaving ajob that they have and then
coming here and then it notworks out and then they have to
go through that.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
I don't want that you know, If I can avoid it 100%, I
totally agree, and so having areally strong hiring process is
so key.
But you know, to the point Iwas making earlier, having that
filter and that culture and thatbelief of this is who we want
and this is who we are is reallygoing to help in that hiring
process.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yes, it does, because you know that's the idea, right
?
They teach us that in marketing, we want to attract the right
people and repel the ones whodon't want this.
They'll be like oh my God, no,we don't want any of that.
Good, then, that's good, likeyou're going to go find another
firm that's better for you,right?
That's the messaging, and samefor people who don't want to
(20:20):
work with us.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Like I don't want to do that.
Good, don't waste anybody'stime, that's so good.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
There should be somebody right.
You know there's a business foryou.
That's better for you to workfor.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Oh, preach, I'm so, so glad to hear you agree with
that.
It's just got to happen.
So, as we're kind of likefinishing up here, tell us about
the future of your firm.
I've like just love and adoreeverything you're doing.
I so appreciate what's coming.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Well, oh, so many things.
And, yeah, now we'll have twosalt walls and so we have this
beautiful new big office coming.
And you know, we're stillgrowing and but you know, growth
for just growth sake is notnecessarily what we want.
You know, we're always tryingto do better right and deliver
more services to our clients.
(21:09):
You know, we're doing thepodcast, which I don't know if I
mentioned that, but I have apodcast called Women Winning
Divorce.
I think this might be yearthree, I lose track, but I think
so.
I don't know, but it's greatand that's really giving us a
lot of traction.
(21:30):
And so I have an idea that I'mgoing to write a great book.
Great, and that's really givingus a lot of traction.
And so you know, I have an ideathat I'm going to write a great
book and then we're going to goon tour and put the podcast on
the road and the book and maybecreate something that inspires
women just all over the world,and so that's like the next
level.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
That's like the big, audacious goal.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
I love that.
What do you think that lookslike Like when you sit there and
imagine?
Is it seminars?
Is it events?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
I think could be seminars and events and creating
a space for women.
You know, because the podcastcalled Women Winning Divorce,
because, as you know, manyattorneys love to say, right and
nobody wins, nobody wins, andit's just like.
That's just not true.
That's not true Because you canwin and that's not by making
someone else lose, because youcan achieve your goals and very
(22:25):
often in a divorce they canstill get their way.
You can get your way, maybe not100%, but a lot the part like
the main things that are superimportant to you.
And and I think it's really I'mvery competitive, so I do love
to win, but yet like that's whatwe tell our attorney Well, the
attorneys too, and the clientslike don't hire me to lose, like
I'm not going to lose, likewe're going to do what it takes
(22:47):
to win, if, if that's somethingwe can achieve.
And we sometimes have, like hey,who had a win today, because
there is a time in my life whengetting my kids to school and
preschool without totallymelting, that was a win.
I wasn't totally melting becauseI'm fully dressed for court,
(23:09):
hair and makeup and getting themin and out of the car seats and
in where they have to go ontime and me getting on time,
that's a huge win and we shouldcelebrate, because too often we
don't celebrate the littlethings, but they just make up
your day, your life.
It's all the little moments andas women, I think sometimes
we're so hard on ourselves andwe don't give ourselves enough
(23:32):
credit for look at what you'redoing and that is a win, and I
think that we can.
We can all win, and I reallywant women to win at life.
I want my employees to win atlife.
It's like you know we ask themwhat does that mean to you?
Because it means somethingdifferent to everybody.
But to sit in there is likebeing defeated, like a victim,
like nobody can win.
Well, if that's yourperspective, that's fine, but
(23:54):
that's not mine.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
You're not going to be on our team yeah, yeah.
Oh man, I wish we had like ninehours, because I want to hear
so much more about you and yourfirm.
I'm so so grateful that youwere able to give us this time,
heather.
I would love to have you backon so that we could take a
deeper dive into the firm, but Ireally appreciate your time
today and I look forward totalking to you soon.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Thank you so much.
This has been a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to check out
our owner operator interviewseries that we have.
We do these every single week.
We're interviewing law firmowners and allowing them to
share their stories, their wins,their losses, and today was no
different.
Make sure to check out the nextone we have, as it is one you
don't want to miss.
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