December 4, 2025 • 27 mins
Law firm hiring assessment systems filter 50% of bad candidates before you waste interview time. Here's the 33% rule.
Assessment tools like Predictive Index Culture Assessment predict behavioral fit so you hire right the first time. In this episode, we breakdown how we use this tool as a filter as it holds 33% of our decision making process for hiring a talent.
Match profiles to role stage. Baseline your team before adding anyone new. This assessment framework predicts culture fit and cuts turnover before it bleeds your firm dry.
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📄 CHAPTERS
0:00 - Law Firm Hiring Assessment: Why Culture Fit Decides Growth
1:54 - The Real Cost When Hiring Goes Wrong
2:55 - What Predictive Index Actually Measures
4:05 - The 33% Rule: Assessment as Decision Framework
5:13 - Attorney Profile Matching: Builders vs. Stabilizers
8:07 - The 48-Hour Filter That Screens 25% of Applicants
10:03 - Match Threshold Scoring: Why 6-7 Is the Cutoff
11:13 - Tailoring Interview Questions From Assessment Data
14:33 - Stage-Role Fit: First Branch Hire vs. Team Hire
16:31 - Cognitive Test: Predicting Attorney Ramp Time
18:25 - Building Complementary Attorney-Paralegal Pairs
20:43 - Baseline Your Existing Team Before Any New Hire
22:06 - Retention ROI: The 12-Month Turnover Problem Solved
----------------------
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Do you know if your team members are truly aligned
with your company culture?
In today's competitive jobmarket, understanding whether a
candidate fits your firm'sculture is just as important as
their skill set.
In this episode, we'll dive intohow the predictive index culture
assessments can transform yourhiring process and help you
build cohesive, high-performingteams.
(00:24):
Welcome back to the SterlingFamily Law Show, your go-to
resource for family law firmowners who are looking to
optimize the operations of theirfirm and boost profitability.
I am your host, Tyler Dolph.
I'm also the CEO of our lawfirm-only marketing agency
called RocketClicks that wasborn out of our own family law
(00:46):
firm called Sterling Lawyersthat has grown to over 27
attorneys.
Today I am joined with theco-founder of our law firm,
Sterling Lawyers, Tony Carls.
He's also the president ofRocketClix, as well as JP
Vanderlinen, who heads up ourpeople operations department.
Today we're going to explore howthe predictive index culture
(01:09):
assessment can help youdetermine if a candidate is a
great cultural fit for yourfirm.
We're going to break down thescience behind the tool, why you
need to use it both in thehiring process as well as your
existing team members andteammates, so that you can
improve the hiring of new teammembers as well as the retention
of current team members.
(01:29):
I really hope you enjoy it.
All right, gentlemen, we areback and we are talking about
hiring.
We are talking about personalitytests.
We leverage the PI test here atRocket Cliques and as well as at
Sterling Lawyers.
But JP, I want to come to youfirst.
(01:50):
Why would an organization evenwant to use something like this
in the first place?
SPEAKER_01 (01:55):
Yeah, I mean, the the short version here is hiring
done wrong costs your company alot of money.
Um it costs a lot of time, a lotof energy, um, which ultimately
just detracts from your abilityto do great work.
Um, and there's nothing worsethan like bringing that person
on, being so excited for them.
(02:15):
You get three, six, nine monthsin, and you're like, ah, I gotta
go do all that over again.
And I just lost those two threequarters.
So getting ahead of it, beingintentional with your process
and knowing what to look for isincredibly important for
choosing the right team membersand building effective teams.
SPEAKER_02 (02:33):
Yeah, 100%.
I think anyone can be anyonethey want for an hour or two
during an interview, but themore you can understand and find
out who they actually are, thebetter chances you have to make
the right hire.
So I mentioned we use PI.
Tony, tell us what the heck PIis and what it does.
SPEAKER_03 (02:56):
Yeah, it's uh so it's it's a assessment we use in
the hiring process that andthere's a lot of lot of
different ones.
So uh before I answer kind ofthe PI question, you know, uh
Disk R3 is one, culture index isone, predictive index is the one
we use.
Um it's it's really a tool tohelp uh guide your interviewing
(03:19):
and decision-making processbecause it's gonna predict
behaviors of a person, um, andit give it will arm you with
really good questions to askperson ask someone in the
interview process, as well asgive you a sense of is if this
is a really detail-oriented job,is this a detail-oriented type
of person?
If is this something is this ajob, is the job I'm posting for,
(03:43):
do they need more independenceand self-drive because I'm
building a new department orbuilding a new team, and like
that's this first person I'mhiring needs to look more like
that.
Um, so it really helps youidentify like what their uh
particular tendencies might looklike.
Um, it shouldn't be used as a uhBible in terms of like if it
(04:03):
says this, then X.
So this isn't a pass fail, um,but it is a directionally
accurate and very informativepiece of information as it
pertains to making hiringdecisions.
So when we when we went throughand got trained and certified on
PI, the uh the way the the waythat we uh were taught is it
(04:26):
should it should make up about33% of your decision making.
So it should give you a wholebunch of information to um ask
questions and dig deeper, uhboth in terms of how they work
and how they interact with theteam.
But it should not be 100% ofwhat you do.
It shouldn't be 100% of yourdecision-making process.
(04:47):
So if you're using it like that,you're probably using it wrong.
Um as it pertains to family law,you know, I'll just talk to the
attorney side.
Um, there are profiles we looklike, we look for.
So, you know, one of them thatis important is as you're
starting a starting a firm oryou're starting a new branch or
(05:08):
metro area that you're you wantto dominate, there's a certain
type of attorney that you'regonna want to hire there.
They're gonna because they'rebuilding, they're they are your
first builder.
So they're gonna need to be moreindependent.
Um, and they're gonna need to beuh someone that can sell future
hires as well as clients intothe firm.
Um so you know, they're gonna bethey're they're they're
(05:31):
typically gonna come from theanalytical profile section.
Um so and analyzers,controllers, uh, strategists are
typically what we look for inthat role.
All three of our branches thatwe opened, we didn't we we found
this out by experience.
(05:53):
We didn't know it beforehand.
But there's a big differencebetween the first first person
that you hire and everybody elsethat you hire on the team.
Um, and where we saw success iswhen we put those types of roles
in first, it went really, reallywell.
When we when we started with theum kind of the roles that would
(06:15):
come after, which are more yourstabilizing type roles, so
they're gonna work better betterwith teams.
Um they're uh morecollaborative, um, and they're
gonna they're gonna mother henthe heck out of your clients and
love on them like you've neverlike you've always wanted.
(06:36):
So like the altruist is kind ofthe ideal profile, but there's a
whole bunch of profiles um thatare in the social styles that
are basically they lean to leanto collaboration versus
independence, they lean tosocial ability versus
introversion, um, and they'revery detail-oriented people that
can work with multiple things ata time.
(06:56):
So those types of folks arethey're wired very differently
than the first section, and likebuilding with one of those
people, you're gonna struggle inthe consultation room at the
beginning because you don't haveanybody feeding them clients.
Those people can get good at atthe consultation room, but it it
takes more effort because that'snot what their strengths are.
(07:17):
So there's some uh particularthings that we look for as it
pertains to how we do recruitinguh specifically for attorneys,
and like what type what what arewe hiring for?
Is this someone that needs tolead and grow and build a team
or department or branch, or isthis someone that I need to
bring in that's gonna love onclients and uh help improve the
(07:38):
overall reputation and uhbalance of the firm?
SPEAKER_02 (07:42):
So if I'm listening to this and I'm a firm owner,
step one, use a personalitytest.
We're we've tried a lot of themand we prefer the you know the
PI test, but uh that doesn'tmean that others aren't great
too.
So explore those.
Um JP, talk to us about thelogistically, how do we leverage
it?
Do we wait till the finalinterview?
Do we do it right away?
(08:03):
Uh when do we actually use uhour PI tests?
SPEAKER_01 (08:07):
So we actually use it super early in the process,
and it's a twofold, um, atwo-fold process.
So the first is literally um inthe first like days after
somebody applies, and we'vevalidated that they um generally
kind of pass the sniff test,right?
From like a like a resumeapplication standpoint.
There's nothing glaring there.
(08:28):
Uh after they pass that, likewe're gonna get this to them
really fast.
And there's the first thing isdo you do it?
Which seems like table stakes,but a number of people, you'll
send them the assessment andthen they won't do it or they
won't do it promptly.
We literally require the test tobe done within 48 hours.
Because if you're serious aboutworking here, that should be
zero problem for you.
It's a it's a 15-minute test.
(08:49):
You can't find 15 minutes in twodays.
You don't actually want thisjob.
You don't actually want to workwith us.
So that's thing one.
You don't do it or you don't doit promptly.
SPEAKER_03 (08:57):
And what what's the what's the drop-off rate there,
JP?
Because it's not, it's not like5%.
It's like, I think it's greaterthan 50% of people that just
they applied for the job, butthey don't really want the job
clearly because they can'tfollow directions email.
SPEAKER_01 (09:10):
Yeah, there's a number of things we do in there.
Um, we're obviously a remotecompany, and so that has an
impact.
We have a video component thatwe use, but the total cumulative
impact of that is greater than50%.
I think on the assessment alone,it's close to 25% of folks who
don't even take it.
They literally just don'trespond.
One to four doors are like, eh,work.
I don't feel like it.
Great.
(09:31):
Don't want to work with thosefolks.
There's probably a place they'dbe awesome.
So that's test one is literallydo they do it?
Can they follow directions?
Um, and then thing two, and I Ilove that Tony called this out,
is that it's not a um, it's notthe Bible, it's directional.
And so there's a scale of likehow closely they match what we
need in the job, which should betailored to where you are in the
process.
(09:51):
Do you need someone who's likedriven, future oriented,
building, gonna like play greatin blank space, or do you need
someone who's like gonna followprocess, execute, stay within
the lines, highly like cool,tailor to that.
How closely do they match that?
It's like a 10 out of 10 or likea seven out of 10 are both fine.
Like that's enough where it'd belike, all right, you're you're
directionally close enough,right?
(10:12):
And so, like, as long as you'reabove like a certain range that
for us it's like six or seven,depending on the role, you're
gonna move forward in theprocess.
If you're below that, what thisis really telling us is not that
you're a bad person, is not thatyou're a bad applicant.
It's that this role and what weneed out of this role counters
your natural tendency.
And as a result, it's gonna takea lot of effort for you to be
(10:35):
good in this seat.
And there's probably a seatthat's better for you or a
company stage that's better foryou.
And so thing one is do they passit uh just from like, do they do
the work?
Thing two is directionally, isthis a role where we're working
with their natural tendenciesand strengths and they have a
good percentage likelihood ofbeing successful in the seat?
Um, so that's kind oflogistically how we use it.
(10:57):
One other component I'llmention, and this kind of gets
to the later phases, is as we'redoing later stage interviews,
um, we tailor the questions andthe follow-ups and the pressure
we apply based on the answersthat we get, because these are
tendencies.
And so if we see that somebody,because so there's no right or
wrong, right?
(11:17):
Are you more precise or are youmore flexible?
Both are fine.
But if I know your tendency, I'mgonna pressure into that to find
out what's that gonna look likewhen I actually put you in front
of my customers, when I actuallyput you over a team, when I
actually put you under pressure,how are you gonna respond?
And I want to find that out inthis process because I don't
(11:38):
want to get nine months down theline and find out that you crack
under pressure.
When I could have found outhere, ooh, yeah, you're probably
not a person who I want to likeput on the big project with the
with the tight deadline.
Like you're not gonna shinethere.
So that's that's kind of acouple of ways we put it in
practice.
Two kind of like pass failportions of like, do they do the
work and do they aligndirectionally?
(11:59):
And then the third piece of likeinforming the rest of the
process of like what is theirbehavioral tendency and how can
we push into that?
SPEAKER_02 (12:05):
Yeah, I love the point around leveraging it as a
filter one.
You know, are they gonna arethey even gonna take the test?
And then having the results sothat you can leverage those
results in the final interviewto really lean in.
SPEAKER_03 (12:20):
Yeah.
I I would I would also add likethe you'll you'll find times
when the the match of the personapplying and the ideal profile,
they're not they're not matched,they're you know four or five,
four or five.
And the in terms of like youknow, match closeness, ten is
(12:41):
the highest, one is the lowest.
Um the biggest thing that uh uhchanges a team member's ability
to flex into those differentroles is typically experience
and maturity.
So like the more experienced andmature you are, the more
self-aware you are of thesethings, the more you're gonna be
able to, the more you've been uhthe experienced in compensating
(13:05):
for something that you may notnaturally do well, but you know
you need to do it, so you do itwell.
So like part of what we're whatwe're looking for in those
questions is like, okay, here'syour natural tendency.
Tell me about your tell me aboutyour experience and how you
handle these situations, becausethat's where I can dig in and
see like, all right, where's thematurity and experience and
(13:25):
self-awareness on the thingsthat are um clearly present
here?
Because we all have naturaltendencies that we come with.
We're all wired a little bitdifferently, uh, but we all also
have experience and we all havea will and skills that we uh
leverage in our workday.
So we can overcome some of ourdeficiencies, and like part of
(13:46):
what we're doing in this processis identifying what those might
be and the questioning settingon those in the interview
process.
So like you know, I'm justtrying to hammer home on this is
not a this is not a pass orfail.
This is a like this isinformation to use and leverage
so that you can identify whetheror not someone will be a good,
good candidate.
And like it's also from a teamperspective.
(14:08):
So I mentioned before certainroles that we want to start with
in a firm.
Well, if I come across anattorney in an area that I'm
trying to grow uh grow, butthey're not super experienced
yet, but they're gonna be akiller in terms of getting new
clients, but they're not theleader.
Okay, great.
And then I have a moreexperienced, you know, person
(14:29):
that's gonna motherhand the heckout of our clients and make them
feel all good.
Great, that's the leader,because that that individual,
she is gonna be more prone tolead the team well and put this,
you know, young, hungry um uhperson that's gonna chase chase
deals and sales and bringrevenue to the firm in the right
(14:50):
position to succeed.
And like, so it doesn't have tobe like, oh, Tony said this on
new hires.
No, like it's it's about ideal.
So like you need these differentcomponents for the for the team.
How do you put them in aposition to be successful is
really important.
So, like, if you're starting anew branch, you're gonna want
someone that looks like that.
They might not be your leader,though.
(15:11):
You might have somebody elsewho's more experienced and been
in the field a really long time,but they don't maybe they don't
like sales, maybe they maybethey really don't like the
pitching and all of thosethings.
Fantastic.
How do you pair these peopletogether so that you can grow
your firm?
SPEAKER_02 (15:25):
Do you want to grow your law firm, but you can't
predict next month's revenue?
Do you hire an attorney withoutknowing if you can actually
afford it?
I hear you.
We have a planning system thatforces us to focus.
It's built on these three keyprinciples.
We are teaching this entireframework in a free 45-minute
webinar called the 2026 AnnualPlanning Live.
(15:49):
Let's make next year the onethat actually changes
everything.
Yeah, I think you said somereally great things there.
And just as a reminder, like,this is not an IQ test, right?
I used to joke people would belike, oh, what profile are you?
And I was like, the best one.
You know, but there's not,there's not a best one.
There's not a winner or loserhere.
It is all about understandingthe unique qualities of these
(16:11):
individuals and then placingthem in situations for them to
be successful.
SPEAKER_01 (16:14):
There is one caveat I will add to that, Tyler.
Uh, one thing I really like thatpredictive index offers, and and
some of them do, again, we'renot affiliated, we're not
sponsored, there's no, you know,no Lincoln bio for this.
But like uh one element ofpredictive index I do like is
they have a they have a functionto it called the cognitive test.
And contrary to what you mightbelieve, it's not an IQ test.
(16:35):
It is a test of speed to learnnew concepts.
And again, go back to our firstpoint that Tony made.
You need to pick the rightperson for the stage of the
role, not just the role itself.
Certain roles have a lot ofchange.
And you need someone in thatseat whose ability to consume
new information quickly and thenlike put it back out is very
(16:56):
high.
And there's some cases whereit's like, no, we've got this
all documented, we've got thisall processed, we know how to
execute.
I don't really need this personto be able to like learn a bunch
of new stuff.
We're gonna be fine.
And so, like, again, tailoringnot just behavioral tendencies,
but also like learning styletendencies of like, is this
person gonna be like learnsthings quick, or is this person
like, nah, they're gonna need afew reps, they're gonna need
(17:17):
some time, and like just puttinghim in a position to win and set
your team up for success.
So there is that component toit, but like it's not an IQ
test, don't use it the wrongway.
SPEAKER_03 (17:26):
Yeah, and it's a really good, it's a really good
predictor of ramp time.
Like, how long is it gonna takethis person to ramp and be uh a
contributing person?
So, like that very much has alot to do with like where where
are you from a businessperspective in in the journey of
growth?
Because if you're if you havethe ability to mentor to mentor
(17:46):
someone up, you're gonna havethe advantage of bringing
someone in that's gonna becheaper and you're gonna grow
them up into what you need, butthey need time to to do that.
So if you have the time, takeadvantage of that.
If you don't have the time,you're you're likely you need to
hire someone that's a littlemore expensive, that's gonna
ramp a lot faster, that's gonnabuild for you, create the SOPs
and like do all the things thatyou need them to do.
(18:08):
So you can then pair somebodythat's more junior with them as
you're as your revenue grows andyour overall business enterprise
increases in value.
So it's really important to likeunder think critically about how
to leverage these tools becausethey're super powerful uh if
you're using them well.
SPEAKER_02 (18:25):
Tony, we talk about all these different qualities
and traits.
I want you to really uh speak tothe family law owner here.
How can they leverage this tobuild strong teams uh within a
law firm, whether that law firmis opening a new office or
simply just trying to enhancethe the quarantine they have?
SPEAKER_03 (18:44):
Yeah.
Um so uh I guess one way I'd oneway I'd think about it is if if
there is a if you have 12 peopleon your on your team and there
are uh there's a uh a more uhhighly segmented portion of that
group that is the majority,that's gonna create that's gonna
(19:07):
create behaviors out of thatgroup that are gonna kind of
stir the culture.
So like your ability to seethose and mix those together is
gonna give you a really goodopportunity to build a strong
team because, like I mentioned,so like the altruist, for
instance, they are uh veryconscious of what they need to
do for their their clients, theylove their clients a ton.
(19:30):
Um, so like what that doesinside a business is everything
that's an issue becomes a hugeissue.
So, what does your neat leaderneed to look like?
What do the conversations needto look like that you're
consistently having so thatmount mohills don't become
mountains and we're managingthese things well?
Um, so there's a lot of thingsthat will patterns that will
(19:51):
show up, and you'll be able tosee these as your team leverages
this, and you'll be able topredict like what do I need to
do?
Where do I need to spend time?
Where do I need to communicateclearly over and over and over
and over and over again, justbecause this is how my team is
pre-pre disposed andpredispositioned, and that like
it's not a bad thing, it's justit is it is a thing, and like
how do we how do we leverage it?
(20:13):
So there's a lot of team teambuilding and uh uh like
resources for managers todiagnose how to think about
these different things in thetool based on each individual
person's specific profile, butthen you can also aggregate it
together and see like what isthe overall pattern of my team,
and now I know what I can dofrom a communication and
(20:34):
training perspective.
SPEAKER_01 (20:37):
Yeah, to dot the eye on that.
The first thing you should do,whichever tool you choose, is
you should baseline your team.
Like, don't start with this onnew hires.
Start with this on your existingteam to understand what my high
performers look like, what do mystable people look like, what
does my team structure looklike?
What am I missing on my team?
Like I got a big gap over here.
I don't even have thisrepresented.
What am I overrepresented on?
(20:58):
Um, so baselining is reallyhelpful because then when you
try to design your profile foryour different roles and you go
out in the market, you have asense of like, what do I need?
What am I missing?
What do I want more of?
Um so I would start there, startinternally, get a baseline, also
inform your managers.
That's a great point, Tony.
Like, make sure your teamleaders are armed with this
information so that they can getthe best performance out of your
(21:20):
team.
This is who you're working with,this is their natural tendency.
Here, how here's how you get thebest version of them going
forward.
Gives them great arming.
And then you go out into themarket and say, okay, now that
I've done that, I'm prepared totalk to new potential
applicants.
SPEAKER_02 (21:33):
Yeah, I seem to remember we went through an
exercise of like uhwhiteboarding.
Okay, who are our strongestemployees and for what reasons?
And, you know, okay, we wantmore of this type for this
reason, and and our team isbuilding in this way.
So we want to make sure we havethis element involved.
So I think JP, that point is sovalid that you have to go
(21:53):
through the exercise of who dowe have on our team currently?
What are their strengths andweaknesses?
What are we trying to buildtowards?
And how do those personalpersonality profiles uh
integrate into who we want next?
JP mentioned this at thebeginning, right?
Hiring is already expensive, buthiring the wrong person is so
(22:13):
much more expensive and takes somuch time, right?
So, how can we help our audiencereally understand the
cost-benefit analysis ofleveraging a tool like this?
SPEAKER_01 (22:28):
Yeah.
So, what you should look for asa result of this is um quality
of throughput and you shouldmeasure it on a timeline,
meaning you should measurewithin the hiring process, as a
result of this tool, are youseeing more candidates proceed
through deeper into the process?
The screening, all the screeningyou do up front, this is, you
(22:48):
know, Tony mentioned this is onepiece.
All the screening you do upfront is designed to increase
the likelihood that the personwho makes it to the next
interview makes it all the wayto the end.
It's it's predictive, hencepredictive index, is predictive
of the success of this person.
And so if it's done right,implemented early, it means you
know, one to one to one in yournext three steps in the process,
(23:11):
which saves everybody timebecause we're not having high
drop-off rates.
SPEAKER_00 (23:14):
And so literally, everyone, all your hiring
managers, your uh your people opstaff, everybody who's doing
that should have their timesaved.
So that's an immediate costsavings from implementing it.
The second thing is post-hire,do you see retention of those
hires downstream six months,twelve months, eighteen,
twenty-fourth?
Are you saying that we're nothaving that 12-month moment you
(23:37):
shouldn't drop this person on isin the evaluation process?
Like that should drop offbecause you're saying we're
taking the right person for theright thing and the right thing.
(23:59):
You don't just lose the cost ofhiring that turnover and the
salary you pay them, you alsolose the time, which often has
been more important because youjust cost yourself 12 months of
development or 24 months, orwhatever it is, because you pick
one person for all that time andenergy, and now you've got to
like redo it if you can't get itback.
Love it.
SPEAKER_02 (24:18):
Tony, as we close out here, give us some real life
uh just data points or examples.
How have the the use ofleveraging you know PI uh
enhanced our retention at thelaw firm?
SPEAKER_03 (24:34):
Uh I think it has a lot to do with our pairing
pairing of who's leading and andthe the team at large, as well
as how we pair attorneys withparalegals.
So it it it improves the overallquality of the the whole
organization from a cultureperspective, because we're um
we're intentionally trying tomatch people um that have uh
(24:57):
complementary skills.
So, like where this works reallywell is if you have a a high
driving sales-oriented who maynot be as detail-oriented
attorney that's bringing a lotof business to the firm, what do
we think the paralegal for thatattorney should look like?
They're probably not a highdriving, you know, person that
(25:21):
is trying to get sales for thefirm that's not detail-oriented.
They're likely a very teamteam-oriented individual that
wants to serve and grow a team.
They're someone that uh valuesrelationships and they're super
super detail-oriented, and theyprobably have an ability to
multitask.
Like that's what that personlooks like.
So now like you've created thisamazing uh team of two people
(25:45):
that are now going to performreally, really well in your org
because their skills complementeach other.
Where the attorney might be weakfrom uh some of their
perspectives, the paralegal canpick that up, and the paralegal,
vice versa, uh can help supportthe attorney and uh grow what
they need to grow, like growingthe way that they need to grow.
SPEAKER_02 (26:08):
100%.
Love it.
Uh all right, I want tosummarize this for our audience.
One, pick a tool.
Two, use that tool on yourcurrent team to understand the
dynamic of your current team andwho you want and who you need.
Then use it in the hiringprocess as a lens for what uh
type of candidate you want andneed for that team, and then
(26:30):
build your teams around theseprofiles so that they can work
cohesively together.
Did I capture that?
Whole podcast in one sentence.
There you go.
Crush.
Love it.
Gentlemen, appreciate the timeas always.
Looking forward to seeing youagain soon.
If you found this episodeexciting, wait until our next
(26:51):
one.
You are gonna love our episodeon resume screening.
We will cover how to siftthrough all the resumes that you
get officially and identify topcandidates before you even begin
the interview process.
Make sure to check it out righthere.
Do you know if your team members are truly aligned
with your company culture?
In today's competitive jobmarket, understanding whether a
candidate fits your firm'sculture is just as important as
their skill set.
In this episode, we'll dive intohow the predictive index culture
assessments can transform yourhiring process and help you
build cohesive, high-performingteams.
(00:24):
Welcome back to the SterlingFamily Law Show, your go-to
resource for family law firmowners who are looking to
optimize the operations of theirfirm and boost profitability.
I am your host, Tyler Dolph.
I'm also the CEO of our lawfirm-only marketing agency
called RocketClicks that wasborn out of our own family law
(00:46):
firm called Sterling Lawyersthat has grown to over 27
attorneys.
Today I am joined with theco-founder of our law firm,
Sterling Lawyers, Tony Carls.
He's also the president ofRocketClix, as well as JP
Vanderlinen, who heads up ourpeople operations department.
Today we're going to explore howthe predictive index culture
(01:09):
assessment can help youdetermine if a candidate is a
great cultural fit for yourfirm.
We're going to break down thescience behind the tool, why you
need to use it both in thehiring process as well as your
existing team members andteammates, so that you can
improve the hiring of new teammembers as well as the retention
of current team members.
(01:29):
I really hope you enjoy it.
All right, gentlemen, we areback and we are talking about
hiring.
We are talking about personalitytests.
We leverage the PI test here atRocket Cliques and as well as at
Sterling Lawyers.
But JP, I want to come to youfirst.
(01:50):
Why would an organization evenwant to use something like this
in the first place?
SPEAKER_01 (01:55):
Yeah, I mean, the the short version here is hiring
done wrong costs your company alot of money.
Um it costs a lot of time, a lotof energy, um, which ultimately
just detracts from your abilityto do great work.
Um, and there's nothing worsethan like bringing that person
on, being so excited for them.
(02:15):
You get three, six, nine monthsin, and you're like, ah, I gotta
go do all that over again.
And I just lost those two threequarters.
So getting ahead of it, beingintentional with your process
and knowing what to look for isincredibly important for
choosing the right team membersand building effective teams.
SPEAKER_02 (02:33):
Yeah, 100%.
I think anyone can be anyonethey want for an hour or two
during an interview, but themore you can understand and find
out who they actually are, thebetter chances you have to make
the right hire.
So I mentioned we use PI.
Tony, tell us what the heck PIis and what it does.
SPEAKER_03 (02:56):
Yeah, it's uh so it's it's a assessment we use in
the hiring process that andthere's a lot of lot of
different ones.
So uh before I answer kind ofthe PI question, you know, uh
Disk R3 is one, culture index isone, predictive index is the one
we use.
Um it's it's really a tool tohelp uh guide your interviewing
(03:19):
and decision-making processbecause it's gonna predict
behaviors of a person, um, andit give it will arm you with
really good questions to askperson ask someone in the
interview process, as well asgive you a sense of is if this
is a really detail-oriented job,is this a detail-oriented type
of person?
If is this something is this ajob, is the job I'm posting for,
(03:43):
do they need more independenceand self-drive because I'm
building a new department orbuilding a new team, and like
that's this first person I'mhiring needs to look more like
that.
Um, so it really helps youidentify like what their uh
particular tendencies might looklike.
Um, it shouldn't be used as a uhBible in terms of like if it
(04:03):
says this, then X.
So this isn't a pass fail, um,but it is a directionally
accurate and very informativepiece of information as it
pertains to making hiringdecisions.
So when we when we went throughand got trained and certified on
PI, the uh the way the the waythat we uh were taught is it
(04:26):
should it should make up about33% of your decision making.
So it should give you a wholebunch of information to um ask
questions and dig deeper, uhboth in terms of how they work
and how they interact with theteam.
But it should not be 100% ofwhat you do.
It shouldn't be 100% of yourdecision-making process.
(04:47):
So if you're using it like that,you're probably using it wrong.
Um as it pertains to family law,you know, I'll just talk to the
attorney side.
Um, there are profiles we looklike, we look for.
So, you know, one of them thatis important is as you're
starting a starting a firm oryou're starting a new branch or
(05:08):
metro area that you're you wantto dominate, there's a certain
type of attorney that you'regonna want to hire there.
They're gonna because they'rebuilding, they're they are your
first builder.
So they're gonna need to be moreindependent.
Um, and they're gonna need to beuh someone that can sell future
hires as well as clients intothe firm.
Um so you know, they're gonna bethey're they're they're
(05:31):
typically gonna come from theanalytical profile section.
Um so and analyzers,controllers, uh, strategists are
typically what we look for inthat role.
All three of our branches thatwe opened, we didn't we we found
this out by experience.
(05:53):
We didn't know it beforehand.
But there's a big differencebetween the first first person
that you hire and everybody elsethat you hire on the team.
Um, and where we saw success iswhen we put those types of roles
in first, it went really, reallywell.
When we when we started with theum kind of the roles that would
(06:15):
come after, which are more yourstabilizing type roles, so
they're gonna work better betterwith teams.
Um they're uh morecollaborative, um, and they're
gonna they're gonna mother henthe heck out of your clients and
love on them like you've neverlike you've always wanted.
(06:36):
So like the altruist is kind ofthe ideal profile, but there's a
whole bunch of profiles um thatare in the social styles that
are basically they lean to leanto collaboration versus
independence, they lean tosocial ability versus
introversion, um, and they'revery detail-oriented people that
can work with multiple things ata time.
(06:56):
So those types of folks arethey're wired very differently
than the first section, and likebuilding with one of those
people, you're gonna struggle inthe consultation room at the
beginning because you don't haveanybody feeding them clients.
Those people can get good at atthe consultation room, but it it
takes more effort because that'snot what their strengths are.
(07:17):
So there's some uh particularthings that we look for as it
pertains to how we do recruitinguh specifically for attorneys,
and like what type what what arewe hiring for?
Is this someone that needs tolead and grow and build a team
or department or branch, or isthis someone that I need to
bring in that's gonna love onclients and uh help improve the
(07:38):
overall reputation and uhbalance of the firm?
SPEAKER_02 (07:42):
So if I'm listening to this and I'm a firm owner,
step one, use a personalitytest.
We're we've tried a lot of themand we prefer the you know the
PI test, but uh that doesn'tmean that others aren't great
too.
So explore those.
Um JP, talk to us about thelogistically, how do we leverage
it?
Do we wait till the finalinterview?
Do we do it right away?
(08:03):
Uh when do we actually use uhour PI tests?
SPEAKER_01 (08:07):
So we actually use it super early in the process,
and it's a twofold, um, atwo-fold process.
So the first is literally um inthe first like days after
somebody applies, and we'vevalidated that they um generally
kind of pass the sniff test,right?
From like a like a resumeapplication standpoint.
There's nothing glaring there.
(08:28):
Uh after they pass that, likewe're gonna get this to them
really fast.
And there's the first thing isdo you do it?
Which seems like table stakes,but a number of people, you'll
send them the assessment andthen they won't do it or they
won't do it promptly.
We literally require the test tobe done within 48 hours.
Because if you're serious aboutworking here, that should be
zero problem for you.
It's a it's a 15-minute test.
(08:49):
You can't find 15 minutes in twodays.
You don't actually want thisjob.
You don't actually want to workwith us.
So that's thing one.
You don't do it or you don't doit promptly.
SPEAKER_03 (08:57):
And what what's the what's the drop-off rate there,
JP?
Because it's not, it's not like5%.
It's like, I think it's greaterthan 50% of people that just
they applied for the job, butthey don't really want the job
clearly because they can'tfollow directions email.
SPEAKER_01 (09:10):
Yeah, there's a number of things we do in there.
Um, we're obviously a remotecompany, and so that has an
impact.
We have a video component thatwe use, but the total cumulative
impact of that is greater than50%.
I think on the assessment alone,it's close to 25% of folks who
don't even take it.
They literally just don'trespond.
One to four doors are like, eh,work.
I don't feel like it.
Great.
(09:31):
Don't want to work with thosefolks.
There's probably a place they'dbe awesome.
So that's test one is literallydo they do it?
Can they follow directions?
Um, and then thing two, and I Ilove that Tony called this out,
is that it's not a um, it's notthe Bible, it's directional.
And so there's a scale of likehow closely they match what we
need in the job, which should betailored to where you are in the
process.
(09:51):
Do you need someone who's likedriven, future oriented,
building, gonna like play greatin blank space, or do you need
someone who's like gonna followprocess, execute, stay within
the lines, highly like cool,tailor to that.
How closely do they match that?
It's like a 10 out of 10 or likea seven out of 10 are both fine.
Like that's enough where it'd belike, all right, you're you're
directionally close enough,right?
(10:12):
And so, like, as long as you'reabove like a certain range that
for us it's like six or seven,depending on the role, you're
gonna move forward in theprocess.
If you're below that, what thisis really telling us is not that
you're a bad person, is not thatyou're a bad applicant.
It's that this role and what weneed out of this role counters
your natural tendency.
And as a result, it's gonna takea lot of effort for you to be
(10:35):
good in this seat.
And there's probably a seatthat's better for you or a
company stage that's better foryou.
And so thing one is do they passit uh just from like, do they do
the work?
Thing two is directionally, isthis a role where we're working
with their natural tendenciesand strengths and they have a
good percentage likelihood ofbeing successful in the seat?
Um, so that's kind oflogistically how we use it.
(10:57):
One other component I'llmention, and this kind of gets
to the later phases, is as we'redoing later stage interviews,
um, we tailor the questions andthe follow-ups and the pressure
we apply based on the answersthat we get, because these are
tendencies.
And so if we see that somebody,because so there's no right or
wrong, right?
(11:17):
Are you more precise or are youmore flexible?
Both are fine.
But if I know your tendency, I'mgonna pressure into that to find
out what's that gonna look likewhen I actually put you in front
of my customers, when I actuallyput you over a team, when I
actually put you under pressure,how are you gonna respond?
And I want to find that out inthis process because I don't
(11:38):
want to get nine months down theline and find out that you crack
under pressure.
When I could have found outhere, ooh, yeah, you're probably
not a person who I want to likeput on the big project with the
with the tight deadline.
Like you're not gonna shinethere.
So that's that's kind of acouple of ways we put it in
practice.
Two kind of like pass failportions of like, do they do the
work and do they aligndirectionally?
(11:59):
And then the third piece of likeinforming the rest of the
process of like what is theirbehavioral tendency and how can
we push into that?
SPEAKER_02 (12:05):
Yeah, I love the point around leveraging it as a
filter one.
You know, are they gonna arethey even gonna take the test?
And then having the results sothat you can leverage those
results in the final interviewto really lean in.
SPEAKER_03 (12:20):
Yeah.
I I would I would also add likethe you'll you'll find times
when the the match of the personapplying and the ideal profile,
they're not they're not matched,they're you know four or five,
four or five.
And the in terms of like youknow, match closeness, ten is
(12:41):
the highest, one is the lowest.
Um the biggest thing that uh uhchanges a team member's ability
to flex into those differentroles is typically experience
and maturity.
So like the more experienced andmature you are, the more
self-aware you are of thesethings, the more you're gonna be
able to, the more you've been uhthe experienced in compensating
(13:05):
for something that you may notnaturally do well, but you know
you need to do it, so you do itwell.
So like part of what we're whatwe're looking for in those
questions is like, okay, here'syour natural tendency.
Tell me about your tell me aboutyour experience and how you
handle these situations, becausethat's where I can dig in and
see like, all right, where's thematurity and experience and
(13:25):
self-awareness on the thingsthat are um clearly present
here?
Because we all have naturaltendencies that we come with.
We're all wired a little bitdifferently, uh, but we all also
have experience and we all havea will and skills that we uh
leverage in our workday.
So we can overcome some of ourdeficiencies, and like part of
(13:46):
what we're doing in this processis identifying what those might
be and the questioning settingon those in the interview
process.
So like you know, I'm justtrying to hammer home on this is
not a this is not a pass orfail.
This is a like this isinformation to use and leverage
so that you can identify whetheror not someone will be a good,
good candidate.
And like it's also from a teamperspective.
(14:08):
So I mentioned before certainroles that we want to start with
in a firm.
Well, if I come across anattorney in an area that I'm
trying to grow uh grow, butthey're not super experienced
yet, but they're gonna be akiller in terms of getting new
clients, but they're not theleader.
Okay, great.
And then I have a moreexperienced, you know, person
(14:29):
that's gonna motherhand the heckout of our clients and make them
feel all good.
Great, that's the leader,because that that individual,
she is gonna be more prone tolead the team well and put this,
you know, young, hungry um uhperson that's gonna chase chase
deals and sales and bringrevenue to the firm in the right
(14:50):
position to succeed.
And like, so it doesn't have tobe like, oh, Tony said this on
new hires.
No, like it's it's about ideal.
So like you need these differentcomponents for the for the team.
How do you put them in aposition to be successful is
really important.
So, like, if you're starting anew branch, you're gonna want
someone that looks like that.
They might not be your leader,though.
(15:11):
You might have somebody elsewho's more experienced and been
in the field a really long time,but they don't maybe they don't
like sales, maybe they maybethey really don't like the
pitching and all of thosethings.
Fantastic.
How do you pair these peopletogether so that you can grow
your firm?
SPEAKER_02 (15:25):
Do you want to grow your law firm, but you can't
predict next month's revenue?
Do you hire an attorney withoutknowing if you can actually
afford it?
I hear you.
We have a planning system thatforces us to focus.
It's built on these three keyprinciples.
We are teaching this entireframework in a free 45-minute
webinar called the 2026 AnnualPlanning Live.
(15:49):
Let's make next year the onethat actually changes
everything.
Yeah, I think you said somereally great things there.
And just as a reminder, like,this is not an IQ test, right?
I used to joke people would belike, oh, what profile are you?
And I was like, the best one.
You know, but there's not,there's not a best one.
There's not a winner or loserhere.
It is all about understandingthe unique qualities of these
(16:11):
individuals and then placingthem in situations for them to
be successful.
SPEAKER_01 (16:14):
There is one caveat I will add to that, Tyler.
Uh, one thing I really like thatpredictive index offers, and and
some of them do, again, we'renot affiliated, we're not
sponsored, there's no, you know,no Lincoln bio for this.
But like uh one element ofpredictive index I do like is
they have a they have a functionto it called the cognitive test.
And contrary to what you mightbelieve, it's not an IQ test.
(16:35):
It is a test of speed to learnnew concepts.
And again, go back to our firstpoint that Tony made.
You need to pick the rightperson for the stage of the
role, not just the role itself.
Certain roles have a lot ofchange.
And you need someone in thatseat whose ability to consume
new information quickly and thenlike put it back out is very
(16:56):
high.
And there's some cases whereit's like, no, we've got this
all documented, we've got thisall processed, we know how to
execute.
I don't really need this personto be able to like learn a bunch
of new stuff.
We're gonna be fine.
And so, like, again, tailoringnot just behavioral tendencies,
but also like learning styletendencies of like, is this
person gonna be like learnsthings quick, or is this person
like, nah, they're gonna need afew reps, they're gonna need
(17:17):
some time, and like just puttinghim in a position to win and set
your team up for success.
So there is that component toit, but like it's not an IQ
test, don't use it the wrongway.
SPEAKER_03 (17:26):
Yeah, and it's a really good, it's a really good
predictor of ramp time.
Like, how long is it gonna takethis person to ramp and be uh a
contributing person?
So, like that very much has alot to do with like where where
are you from a businessperspective in in the journey of
growth?
Because if you're if you havethe ability to mentor to mentor
(17:46):
someone up, you're gonna havethe advantage of bringing
someone in that's gonna becheaper and you're gonna grow
them up into what you need, butthey need time to to do that.
So if you have the time, takeadvantage of that.
If you don't have the time,you're you're likely you need to
hire someone that's a littlemore expensive, that's gonna
ramp a lot faster, that's gonnabuild for you, create the SOPs
and like do all the things thatyou need them to do.
(18:08):
So you can then pair somebodythat's more junior with them as
you're as your revenue grows andyour overall business enterprise
increases in value.
So it's really important to likeunder think critically about how
to leverage these tools becausethey're super powerful uh if
you're using them well.
SPEAKER_02 (18:25):
Tony, we talk about all these different qualities
and traits.
I want you to really uh speak tothe family law owner here.
How can they leverage this tobuild strong teams uh within a
law firm, whether that law firmis opening a new office or
simply just trying to enhancethe the quarantine they have?
SPEAKER_03 (18:44):
Yeah.
Um so uh I guess one way I'd oneway I'd think about it is if if
there is a if you have 12 peopleon your on your team and there
are uh there's a uh a more uhhighly segmented portion of that
group that is the majority,that's gonna create that's gonna
(19:07):
create behaviors out of thatgroup that are gonna kind of
stir the culture.
So like your ability to seethose and mix those together is
gonna give you a really goodopportunity to build a strong
team because, like I mentioned,so like the altruist, for
instance, they are uh veryconscious of what they need to
do for their their clients, theylove their clients a ton.
(19:30):
Um, so like what that doesinside a business is everything
that's an issue becomes a hugeissue.
So, what does your neat leaderneed to look like?
What do the conversations needto look like that you're
consistently having so thatmount mohills don't become
mountains and we're managingthese things well?
Um, so there's a lot of thingsthat will patterns that will
(19:51):
show up, and you'll be able tosee these as your team leverages
this, and you'll be able topredict like what do I need to
do?
Where do I need to spend time?
Where do I need to communicateclearly over and over and over
and over and over again, justbecause this is how my team is
pre-pre disposed andpredispositioned, and that like
it's not a bad thing, it's justit is it is a thing, and like
how do we how do we leverage it?
(20:13):
So there's a lot of team teambuilding and uh uh like
resources for managers todiagnose how to think about
these different things in thetool based on each individual
person's specific profile, butthen you can also aggregate it
together and see like what isthe overall pattern of my team,
and now I know what I can dofrom a communication and
(20:34):
training perspective.
SPEAKER_01 (20:37):
Yeah, to dot the eye on that.
The first thing you should do,whichever tool you choose, is
you should baseline your team.
Like, don't start with this onnew hires.
Start with this on your existingteam to understand what my high
performers look like, what do mystable people look like, what
does my team structure looklike?
What am I missing on my team?
Like I got a big gap over here.
I don't even have thisrepresented.
What am I overrepresented on?
(20:58):
Um, so baselining is reallyhelpful because then when you
try to design your profile foryour different roles and you go
out in the market, you have asense of like, what do I need?
What am I missing?
What do I want more of?
Um so I would start there, startinternally, get a baseline, also
inform your managers.
That's a great point, Tony.
Like, make sure your teamleaders are armed with this
information so that they can getthe best performance out of your
(21:20):
team.
This is who you're working with,this is their natural tendency.
Here, how here's how you get thebest version of them going
forward.
Gives them great arming.
And then you go out into themarket and say, okay, now that
I've done that, I'm prepared totalk to new potential
applicants.
SPEAKER_02 (21:33):
Yeah, I seem to remember we went through an
exercise of like uhwhiteboarding.
Okay, who are our strongestemployees and for what reasons?
And, you know, okay, we wantmore of this type for this
reason, and and our team isbuilding in this way.
So we want to make sure we havethis element involved.
So I think JP, that point is sovalid that you have to go
(21:53):
through the exercise of who dowe have on our team currently?
What are their strengths andweaknesses?
What are we trying to buildtowards?
And how do those personalpersonality profiles uh
integrate into who we want next?
JP mentioned this at thebeginning, right?
Hiring is already expensive, buthiring the wrong person is so
(22:13):
much more expensive and takes somuch time, right?
So, how can we help our audiencereally understand the
cost-benefit analysis ofleveraging a tool like this?
SPEAKER_01 (22:28):
Yeah.
So, what you should look for asa result of this is um quality
of throughput and you shouldmeasure it on a timeline,
meaning you should measurewithin the hiring process, as a
result of this tool, are youseeing more candidates proceed
through deeper into the process?
The screening, all the screeningyou do up front, this is, you
(22:48):
know, Tony mentioned this is onepiece.
All the screening you do upfront is designed to increase
the likelihood that the personwho makes it to the next
interview makes it all the wayto the end.
It's it's predictive, hencepredictive index, is predictive
of the success of this person.
And so if it's done right,implemented early, it means you
know, one to one to one in yournext three steps in the process,
(23:11):
which saves everybody timebecause we're not having high
drop-off rates.
SPEAKER_00 (23:14):
And so literally, everyone, all your hiring
managers, your uh your people opstaff, everybody who's doing
that should have their timesaved.
So that's an immediate costsavings from implementing it.
The second thing is post-hire,do you see retention of those
hires downstream six months,twelve months, eighteen,
twenty-fourth?
Are you saying that we're nothaving that 12-month moment you
(23:37):
shouldn't drop this person on isin the evaluation process?
Like that should drop offbecause you're saying we're
taking the right person for theright thing and the right thing.
(23:59):
You don't just lose the cost ofhiring that turnover and the
salary you pay them, you alsolose the time, which often has
been more important because youjust cost yourself 12 months of
development or 24 months, orwhatever it is, because you pick
one person for all that time andenergy, and now you've got to
like redo it if you can't get itback.
Love it.
SPEAKER_02 (24:18):
Tony, as we close out here, give us some real life
uh just data points or examples.
How have the the use ofleveraging you know PI uh
enhanced our retention at thelaw firm?
SPEAKER_03 (24:34):
Uh I think it has a lot to do with our pairing
pairing of who's leading and andthe the team at large, as well
as how we pair attorneys withparalegals.
So it it it improves the overallquality of the the whole
organization from a cultureperspective, because we're um
we're intentionally trying tomatch people um that have uh
(24:57):
complementary skills.
So, like where this works reallywell is if you have a a high
driving sales-oriented who maynot be as detail-oriented
attorney that's bringing a lotof business to the firm, what do
we think the paralegal for thatattorney should look like?
They're probably not a highdriving, you know, person that
(25:21):
is trying to get sales for thefirm that's not detail-oriented.
They're likely a very teamteam-oriented individual that
wants to serve and grow a team.
They're someone that uh valuesrelationships and they're super
super detail-oriented, and theyprobably have an ability to
multitask.
Like that's what that personlooks like.
So now like you've created thisamazing uh team of two people
(25:45):
that are now going to performreally, really well in your org
because their skills complementeach other.
Where the attorney might be weakfrom uh some of their
perspectives, the paralegal canpick that up, and the paralegal,
vice versa, uh can help supportthe attorney and uh grow what
they need to grow, like growingthe way that they need to grow.
SPEAKER_02 (26:08):
100%.
Love it.
Uh all right, I want tosummarize this for our audience.
One, pick a tool.
Two, use that tool on yourcurrent team to understand the
dynamic of your current team andwho you want and who you need.
Then use it in the hiringprocess as a lens for what uh
type of candidate you want andneed for that team, and then
(26:30):
build your teams around theseprofiles so that they can work
cohesively together.
Did I capture that?
Whole podcast in one sentence.
There you go.
Crush.
Love it.
Gentlemen, appreciate the timeas always.
Looking forward to seeing youagain soon.
If you found this episodeexciting, wait until our next
(26:51):
one.
You are gonna love our episodeon resume screening.
We will cover how to siftthrough all the resumes that you
get officially and identify topcandidates before you even begin
the interview process.
Make sure to check it out righthere.
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