September 25, 2025 • 24 mins
Most law firms waste paid search campaigns budget on broken segmentation that kills ROI and drains marketing spend.
This systematic approach to keyword segmentation strategy prevents the P-Max trap that bleeds budgets. Cost per lead tracking across buy terms, local terms, research terms, service-based terms, and core attorney terms allocation creates predictable growth. Multi-touch attribution modeling reveals why cutting research terms actually hurts your bottom-funnel conversions.
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📄 CHAPTERS
0:00 - Paid Search Campaign Structure For Family Law Growth
2:18 - The P-Max Problem: Why Agencies Waste Your Budget
4:02 - Buy Terms: 30% Budget Allocation For Ready Clients
8:35 - Local Terms: 42% Of Your Leads Come Here
10:44 - Research Terms: Attribution Modeling That Works
16:12 - Service-Based Terms: Segmentation Strategy Mistakes
19:09 - Core Attorney Terms: Multi-Touch Attribution Secrets
21:41 - The $100 Budget Breakdown: Campaign Performance Metrics
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What happens to the house?
How do you get a divorce?
What's the process?
All of those, those are upfunnel and then they keep
getting more and more specificand typically the buy terms are
going to get more stretched outand longer.
There's going to be lesstraffic, but you're going to see
more quality.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I'm your host, tyler Dolph, and I am bringing back
two of our best when it comes togrowing family law firms online
Tony Karls, who is theco-founder of our own firm,
soiling Law, and James Patterson, who actually runs all of the
advertising and is the head ofour advertising for our law firm
clients here at RocketClicks.
(00:36):
Gents, so great to have youback Today.
We are going to continue ourdeep dive into the paid
advertising realm.
We're going to talk about paidsearch terms for family law
firms, and you know, if you're afamily law firm and you are
leveraging digital advertisingto drive leads into your firm,
(00:59):
one metric that I hope you aretracking, or that I would
encourage you to track, is yourcost per lead.
How much are you spending andhow many leads are coming
through to your firm as itrelates to those dollars and
cents?
And then, of course, you wantto make sure the quality of
those leads is good, and soJames is our paid advertising
(01:21):
expert across all of our lawfirm clients here at
RocketClicks.
We're going to talk through thedifferent types of search terms
that we believe are necessaryfor the ideal campaigns.
But, james, I figured we'dstart with a little bit of fun
in talking about some of theaccounts that you've seen over
(01:41):
the years where we will takeover an account, an existing
account.
Either the law firm was runningit themselves or they had
another agency, and we've seensome interesting setups.
Give us a little background onsome of the cobwebs and things
you've found in these accounts.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Yeah, definitely, it's always a lot of fun kicking
off with new clients because Iwill say, you kind of never know
what you're going to see whenyou're, when you are taking over
a new account that wasobviously managed by their
previous agency or maybesomebody internal that that
wasn't aware of, kind of how welook at that strategy in terms
of being really segmented andintentional on the types of
(02:22):
keywords we're targeting.
Segmented and intentional onthe types of keywords we're
targeting.
Some of the worst things I'veseen is a whole lot of spend in
a PMAX campaign that's basicallyjust a branded search campaign.
We'll skip the conversionactions.
I think that's a whole separateconversation.
But in terms of targeting, yeah,PMAX a lot of broad with not a
lot of really great negativekeyword lists in there, of broad
(02:46):
with not a lot of really greatnegative keyword lists in there.
So you know, as you kind ofkick this off, Tyler, when it
comes to cost per lead, you knowjust letting in so much cost
for searches that you have nobusiness targeting that you're
leaking in.
And if you're only looking atthe keyword level, you know you
might be reporting somethingthat hey, we're getting good
results here, but really yougenerally are not bringing in
the types of leads that youwould be hoping that you could
(03:06):
do if you were using a strategywhere you're being a little bit
more refined there on whatexactly you're targeting 100%.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
If you're listening to this and you're a law firm
owner and you have an agencythat is only talking to you
about PMACs, please call us.
We have a very strong opinionon that campaign type.
But, just shifting gears intothe different segments, as it
relates to when we're buildingout a campaign for a new client,
we really believe that thereare five basic segments.
(03:34):
We're going to start with thefirst one, which is our buy term
segment.
Give us a little deep dive intowhy we need these buy terms in
the account.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Yeah, in terms of our agency, we look at buy terms as
being the most importantkeywords to be targeting.
A lot of times, even whenclients have a little hesitation
or maybe poor experiences inthe past with PPC, we generally
recommend at least starting withthese keywords, specifically
Buy terms.
They sound exactly what thename is right.
(04:05):
So it's people that areactively looking to buy your
product or service.
So for law firms thinking likedivorce lawyer near me, best
divorce lawyer, things of thatnature, where it's these really
good intent of somebody who'slooking to make an action now,
so a lot of times that's peoplethat have already gone through
the research phase.
So how do I get a divorce inWisconsin?
(04:26):
Or whatever the case may be,how much does a divorce cost?
They've gotten through all ofthat process.
Now they're looking for hey, Iwant to talk to somebody who
wants to work with me and thisis our opportunity as a good
advertiser, good business, toput our hands up and say we are
the top universal lawyer in yourarea or whatever the search is,
and really capitalize there toobviously always have your brand
(04:48):
shown up there, not only forthe traffic but then also, from
you know, visibility standpointas they continue through their
funnel journey and everything.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yeah, so we would say this is the lowest part of the
funnel.
Their wallet is out, they areready to buy, they know what
they want to buy and we justneed to be there to accept and
do a great job in service,correct?
Yep absolutely, tony.
On the Sterling Law website andcampaign, we have many offices,
(05:18):
we have a very large campaign.
We spend a lot of money onadvertising.
What would you say?
What percentage of our campaignand, james, you may know this
because you run the account isthese buy terms?
Speaker 1 (05:32):
It probably depends a lot on if we have too many
leads or not.
So that would be the rightanswer Because the way we think
about these different categoriesis it's full coverage of
research.
So, from the research pointwhich we know, based on client
interviews, we've done withseveral groups of clients that
(05:53):
they're in market, typicallybefore the contact firm, 18
months to three years.
So you know, james, youmentioned a bunch of different
terms before that are more.
You know what happens to thehouse, how to get a divorce,
what's the process, all of those.
Those are up funnel and thenthey keep getting more and more
(06:14):
specific and typically the buyterms are going to get more
stretched out and longer.
There's going to be lesstraffic but you're going to see
more quality.
So I know we have some idealpercentage scenarios.
Do you know what those are offthe top of your head, james?
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Yeah, again, obviously the advertiser's
budget is going to play a parthere, right.
Obviously, in an ideal state,like Tony was talking about, you
do have coverage across allthese different buckets.
I think when we look atbasically a perfect scenario, I
would say at least 30% of yourbudget is really focused here.
It is generally going to be ahigher cost per click.
(06:51):
Generally, when you're thinkingabout keywords that you're
targeting, it turns out otheradvertisers and businesses also
know these folks are really highvalue, right, they're ready to
go.
We're not going to screw aroundwith intake team working with
them.
It's like, ah, I'm not quiteready.
You know, obviously wasted moneypotentially if they end up not
wanting to work with you.
So that is reflected in thesearch results.
(07:13):
So you're going to want to havea high percentage of your
budget in this categoryspecifically From there,
obviously depending on yourmarket and demand, right, like
obviously, larger law firms thatare in, you know, multi areas
and things like that, you knowespecially larger metros are
going to have opportunities tospend even more in this category
.
So it's going to be a littlebit dependent there.
But you know, the main takeawayis like, if you're looking at
(07:36):
prioritization and how you wantto segment your budget in these
different directions.
Assume higher CPCs but thenassume you know a better ROI in
terms of those leads goingthrough your funnel 100%.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Love it.
Going up just a bit in thefunnel, we have our second
segment, which is local terms,and I know from everything you
both have told me 46% of allleads for a law firm come from
the maps, come from local typesearch terms 42%.
(08:10):
Sorry about that.
Give us some detail on theimportance of local terms.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Yeah, so when we're talking about intent right, or
keyword variations here, likelocals, is a huge one.
A lot of people do prefer,based off of research and data
that's out there, to work with alocal company when they can.
So that's something that youcan use to your benefit by
targeting these local keywords.
So it's really simply, fromlike a structure standpoint,
(08:39):
it's going to be your core termsand then some type of city or
geo variation to that.
So divorce lawyer in Milwaukee,wisconsin.
Divorce lawyer in Miami,florida.
Child custody support and thenobviously, whatever metro you're
targeting or where you aresearching for you.
So it's an easy way again tokind of work a little bit more
(09:01):
in terms of focusing oncustomers that are probably a
little bit further along intheir journey.
Like now, they're activelylooking for local businesses for
you.
So you have the opportunity toagain kind of put your hand up
and say, hey, we're a localbusiness, we do this and really
win there.
You can be creative with yourad copy as well.
There as well, like doing alocation insertion, so that when
(09:21):
the user sees your ads, itliterally says you know, divorce
lawyer, perfect, that's whatI'm looking for and it's just
another good way to again, toreally, you know, ensure good
quality of leads and then, youknow, really play into the fact
that you know, like you justsaid, tyler, a lot of people are
looking for local businesses,so, if you are one, there's a
lot of searches out there thatyou can be capitalizing on.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, I, think an interesting part of what you
said is the connecting back towhere the user is and improving
that relevance.
So if I'm searching for divorceattorney Milwaukee and then the
ad is talking about the factthat, oh, that's us, we're a
divorce attorney law firm inMilwaukee, you know, as a user,
(10:01):
I'm thinking, great, that'sexactly what I'm looking for.
I'm going to click on that andbe able to get what I need.
Yeah, exactly yeah, love it.
All right, let's continuemoving up.
Our next segment is researchterms.
Now, I'm a novice here and I'massuming that is, I'm not
potentially ready to buy, but Imay be in market.
(10:22):
I'm trying to understand thescenario.
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
spoil any future topics.
I know we'll probably talkabout offers at some point, but
there's a lot of search volumehere.
These people are likely notgoing to be your I'm ready to
buy tomorrow type leads ifthey're looking for the first
time how to get a divorce intheir area or whatever the case
may be.
So it can be valuable to targetthese searches if you have good
offers on your website to tryand keep them engaged.
Obviously, a divorce in mostcases can take some time for the
(10:56):
user to understand what they'regoing through or whatever, and
come to terms with their optionsmoving forward.
So having a good offer to keepthem engaged when they are going
through the research can bereally your go-ahead in terms of
targeting those types ofsearches.
The biggest thing here is isbecause these users are
generally not as buy ready.
(11:17):
Generally, CPCs are lowerbecause other advertisers are
understanding this.
You know the conversion ratecan vary A lot of times.
When you look at the businessKPIs for these types of
campaigns, that's where you'regoing to see the biggest
mismatch, where maybe you gotsome conversions up front from
these campaigns but thenultimately they didn't end up
get funded or, you know, theygot far further along in the, in
(11:39):
the sales journey, Maybe talkto an attorney and ultimately
said, well, I'm not quite readyfor this, so it can be a really
good tactic to capitalize on.
Obviously, there's a lot ofsearch volume here.
Get your name in the in thelist of future considerations
that they're thinking about.
But in terms of strategy, thisis going to fall a little bit
further down and again, you knowbudget limitations are going to
really give you you know kindof your options if this is
(12:02):
something that we should befocusing on or not.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Love it.
And so just because there'smaybe not as much search volume
or they're not as competitiveterms, it doesn't mean you
shouldn't have them right?
Uh, why?
Why would there's actually?
Speaker 1 (12:17):
a good amount of search volume on a lot of these.
So not not that there's less,they're, they're just less
likely to buy at that point whenthey're searching for these.
So like how, how, it's a lot ofhow and cost and you know, like
, if you think of all the, youknow who, what, where, when, how
, why questions like there are alot of those types of questions
(12:38):
, long tail queries what happensto the marital house, what?
What is the cost of childcustody?
How do you file for divorce?
What's the process for childcustody in Wisconsin?
Like it's a lot of that type ofstuff.
So they're not quite they'reresearching, like they.
They're like, all right, thisis the path, but I don't know
(12:59):
enough to buy yet, I don't knowenough to move forward, so I
need to research.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
It sounds like that's an opportunity to position your
firm as being the expert whenthey are ready to buy.
Maybe they come back direct andthen you're saving on the cost
per click there.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yeah we did it, we did James mentioned said it
perfectly we, we, we talk, wehave another podcast about
offers and these work reallywell if you have offers to give
them and offers aren't.
Get a consultation.
Offers are here's.
Here's a webinar that you canyou can do here's.
(13:36):
Here's some calculators.
Here's some forms.
Here's some.
It's like things before theybuy, cause they're not quite
ready yet, but like they'll makea micro commitment.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Yeah, the way usually our team are looking at
research keywords is like theseare questions potential
customers are asking beforethey're ready to talk to an
attorney or an intake teamperson.
So that's how it should bebroken out in terms of your
strategies.
There's a lot of opportunitiesthere if you can build the right
offers and processes in place,but if you're looking for a bang
(14:07):
for your buck, that buy termand local terms are going to be
your better value upfront.
If you're kind of looking atyour business today and your
primary offers, just you know.
Hey, give us a call if you'reinterested.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
I think this is an interesting point is as a
business owner.
Sometimes I'm going to look atthings in more of a black and
white perspective.
I put a dollar in.
Why didn't I get $4 or $8 or$10 back?
And without the awareness orthe context of what you're
saying in regards to thiscategory, I may be looking at a
report that my agency sent meand been like why are we
(14:43):
spending all this money on thesekeywords that aren't converting
?
Should we cut them all?
And, I think, adding thatcontext to help business owners
and law firm owners understandthat these are lines we're
putting in the water for futurefish and where we'll see, the
conversions are in the buy andlocal terms.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
They aren't going to often come in the research.
I've done this when we firststarted the law firm oh, we're
not getting conversions, let'sshut them all off.
Oh, we get way less conversionsnow.
Overall, we need to look at amixed attribution model so that
we can maximize the total value.
So if we're like, what keywordsare the only keywords that do
(15:24):
conversions, you're probablygoing to hurt your account.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Great reminder there.
Okay, we're going to continuemoving through this funnel and
we're going to go to nowservice-based terms.
So I'm in a family law firm.
My family law firm does allkinds of things right, Divorce
and custody and paternity andaction and all the things You're
saying.
(15:49):
There should be differentkeywords and categories for
these different services.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
there should be different keywords and
categories for these differentservices.
Yeah, definitely, I think, interms of campaign structure, a
lot of times where we going backto your previous question,
tyler, when we kicked off thisis an area where we see a lot of
ill-advised strategy, where alot of times, previous agencies
are setting accounts where allof these keywords, which are
(16:13):
very, you know, right, they havethe relevance of a family law
service, but are very differentcases, different types of folks
that are going through this,they're looking for different
information and ready to convertand combining it all into one
ad group.
So then spend across the boardis going to go into different
areas.
You know, we'll hear itsometimes from clients and
they're like man, I just PPC andall we got was child custody or
(16:36):
whatever the case may be.
And a lot of times we'll lookat the account and these are the
types of things we'll see.
It's like, oh well, they didhave divorce keywords active,
but they had everything blendedtogether or maybe they had loose
, negative keywords and now allthis stuff is bleeding in and
ultimately gave them resultsthat they didn't like.
So I think, with the serviceterms in particular, just the
biggest thing there is justbeing very mindful in terms of
(16:59):
segmentation, both from negativekeyword list perspective to the
actual keywords that you'retargeting to your ad copy
landing page, that you should beobviously focusing on all the
services that are important toyour business, but if you're not
doing this, well, what couldhappen is you could be
potentially allowing more budgetto flow to things that really
aren't that important to yourbusiness.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Yeah, I would say these are again a little higher
up the funnel because they'reeven more generic.
So there's good traffic here,so it's kind of a misleading
indicator.
You're like, oh, I think Ishould be here.
Divorce in Wisconsin is anexample that has a lot of
keyword traffic.
It's not something I don't likebased on lead volume.
It's very rarely been on in theaccount because it's not
(17:46):
something that actually worksthat well.
So it's too high up the funneland you need.
You need either earlier offersand like that's not something
we've been able to develop atthis point.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Love it.
So maybe awareness, butdefinitely not buying signals,
and maybe even less so would beour final.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
They're great for organic Like.
These are where you can findsome really good organic
opportunities and you know, ifyou're paid an organic team or
working together, you're goingto find some really cool wins
there, Because some of these youshould really you should focus
on on in both but, like there'sdifferent application.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Moving on to our final category.
And then, james, I'll prep youfor this question If I have $100
, how am I splitting my $100 upacross these five categories?
So think about that as you'retelling us about our fifth
category.
Fifth and final, which is coreattorney terms.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Yeah, Core attorney terms is exactly what it sounds
like Just really targetingkeywords specific to obviously
having the iteration of lawyeron the keyword.
So where segment four andsegment five differ here is that
in segment four, for serviceterms, you're looking at just
divorce and some variations.
Here in segment five, with coreattorney terms, you're looking
(19:12):
at, you know, divorce lawyersand then you know other
variations added onto that indifferent instances.
So this can be really importantas well.
Obviously it's, you know, alittle bit further down, I would
say, in terms of people lookingfor somebody to come in and
service their problem thatthey're working through.
So it's definitely an importantarea to allocate budget.
(19:34):
Again, as we look at the fullmatrix I know, Tyler, it sounds
like you're queuing me up forthe reveal in terms of my budget
recommendations I do think thatthis one is likely more
important than segment four,even in terms of what you're
targeting that way.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yeah, probably both three and four.
This is probably.
You know you got one, that's aby terms.
Two is local.
Three, from an orderperspective, is probably core
attorney terms, and then you'regoing to go up into research and
then you're going to go off tothe higher research.
So, but yeah, these are, theseare great targets.
(20:10):
This is another example, thoughsimilar to the research terms,
where we've we've done testingbefore, where we won't see tons
of conversions to these or we'llsee conversions but it's going
to be a really high CPA bykeyword but shutting them off
actually has a negative effecton the bottom of the funnel.
So there's likemulti-attribution is really
(20:33):
important and like if you don'tunderstand that in the in in
paid like it, you're right, itdoesn't work for you but it's
because it's not done wellyou're right, it doesn't work
for you, but it's because it'snot done well.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah, to me that's like such a huge call out.
You know, law firm owners andus included you don't have time
to look into the every singledetail and minutiae all day.
Yet if we're hearing from ouragency hey, we're turning off a
bunch of these research termsbecause they're not converting,
that to me is a big red flag,it's a big call out.
And so if you're listening tothis and you're hearing your
(21:11):
agency wanting to cut costsbecause performance isn't there,
and they're doing that throughjust slashing a bunch of
keywords, that may not always bethe right answer.
All right, james.
The big reveal here We've gotfive segments, we've got $100 to
spend.
Right, we're doing like fantasydraft.
Where are we spending our $100?
As it relates to these fivedifferent categories?
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Yeah, so five categories and if we have to
spend in all of them, right,because I am going to advise
$100 budget we're not going togo in all five in a non-fantasy
format here.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, this could be 1,000, could be 10,000, 100,000.
So I'm just trying to make iteasy math.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Yeah, all right, so I'm going to go.
I'm going to stick to my gunson the 30% end of buy terms.
I think obviously, again,demand is going to play a role
here, potentially maybe evenmore if there is the search
volume for it.
But we'll stick to my guns onthe 30% for buy terms here For
local.
I'm going to go next here andgo.
I'm tempted to almost go 30again, but we'll knock it down
(22:08):
just to show the priority levelof buy terms being the number
one spot and we'll go 20 onlocal terms.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
We're 50% of our budget.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
That's the way we do it around here.
Yep, I like it.
Then, from here I'm going to go, let's go another, let's go 15
on core attorney terms.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
So what does that put me to?
We're at 65 for the mathwizards in the room.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
Okay, we've got 25 to work with.
Here.
I'm going to 35 to work withhere.
I'm going to go the remaining35.
We're going to go.
Oh, this is is tough, I mighthave to readjust here we're
gonna.
We're back up for a second.
Okay, so for core eternityterms, I said 15, let's make
(22:54):
that 20.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
So now, we're at 70.
Okay, you're at 70.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Let's go research terms.
There's a lot of search volumehere.
Like I said, I'm gonna assumethat you have good offers on
your site with this one.
Okay, is that fine to saythat's fair?
Sure, okay, we're going to doanother 20 on research terms.
But I want to be clear here inthis recommendation that I'm not
saying that core attorney termsand research terms are equal
(23:19):
per se.
But if we're going to do theexample here to where there's
really great offers on the siteI think you can be successful
here Then the remaining 10 willdo service terms or not at all,
and let's just put it more intobuy terms is the final
recommendation.
So, if you heard nothing else,local and buy the rest, you know
it has value, but not nearly asmuch as it does in the buy and
(23:43):
the local term.
So depending on the way yourbusiness is set up and obviously
how you're working from anoperation standpoint and what
offers you have on your site,there's going to be
opportunities to potentiallyplay in these different buckets.
But ultimately when we'rekicking off with new clients,
we're pushing them right intothe buy terms and local terms
right away and then from thereagain kind of depending on the
(24:10):
business.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
We'll make some decisions on where to allocate.
From that point, I love it.
Yes, nothing set in stone.
There's no silver bulletstrategy here.
It is custom based on where thelaw firm is and what they're
trying to do.
But really appreciate theinsights today.
Gentlemen, this is foundationaland very important knowledge
that we love to share with ourlaw firm community, so I
appreciate it again.
Thanks for your time andlisteners.
Thanks for being here.
(24:30):
If you enjoyed this video andyou want to learn more about our
paid advertising strategy, ourstructure, as we deep dive into
what we do that helps our lawfirm clients grow online, check
out this video and, of course,we'll add a link in the comments
as well.
Thanks, everyone, and we willsee you next time.
What happens to the house?
How do you get a divorce?
What's the process?
All of those, those are upfunnel and then they keep
getting more and more specificand typically the buy terms are
going to get more stretched outand longer.
There's going to be lesstraffic, but you're going to see
more quality.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I'm your host, tyler Dolph, and I am bringing back
two of our best when it comes togrowing family law firms online
Tony Karls, who is theco-founder of our own firm,
soiling Law, and James Patterson, who actually runs all of the
advertising and is the head ofour advertising for our law firm
clients here at RocketClicks.
(00:36):
Gents, so great to have youback Today.
We are going to continue ourdeep dive into the paid
advertising realm.
We're going to talk about paidsearch terms for family law
firms, and you know, if you're afamily law firm and you are
leveraging digital advertisingto drive leads into your firm,
(00:59):
one metric that I hope you aretracking, or that I would
encourage you to track, is yourcost per lead.
How much are you spending andhow many leads are coming
through to your firm as itrelates to those dollars and
cents?
And then, of course, you wantto make sure the quality of
those leads is good, and soJames is our paid advertising
(01:21):
expert across all of our lawfirm clients here at
RocketClicks.
We're going to talk through thedifferent types of search terms
that we believe are necessaryfor the ideal campaigns.
But, james, I figured we'dstart with a little bit of fun
in talking about some of theaccounts that you've seen over
(01:41):
the years where we will takeover an account, an existing
account.
Either the law firm was runningit themselves or they had
another agency, and we've seensome interesting setups.
Give us a little background onsome of the cobwebs and things
you've found in these accounts.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Yeah, definitely, it's always a lot of fun kicking
off with new clients because Iwill say, you kind of never know
what you're going to see whenyou're, when you are taking over
a new account that wasobviously managed by their
previous agency or maybesomebody internal that that
wasn't aware of, kind of how welook at that strategy in terms
of being really segmented andintentional on the types of
(02:22):
keywords we're targeting.
Segmented and intentional onthe types of keywords we're
targeting.
Some of the worst things I'veseen is a whole lot of spend in
a PMAX campaign that's basicallyjust a branded search campaign.
We'll skip the conversionactions.
I think that's a whole separateconversation.
But in terms of targeting, yeah,PMAX a lot of broad with not a
lot of really great negativekeyword lists in there, of broad
(02:46):
with not a lot of really greatnegative keyword lists in there.
So you know, as you kind ofkick this off, Tyler, when it
comes to cost per lead, you knowjust letting in so much cost
for searches that you have nobusiness targeting that you're
leaking in.
And if you're only looking atthe keyword level, you know you
might be reporting somethingthat hey, we're getting good
results here, but really yougenerally are not bringing in
the types of leads that youwould be hoping that you could
(03:06):
do if you were using a strategywhere you're being a little bit
more refined there on whatexactly you're targeting 100%.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
If you're listening to this and you're a law firm
owner and you have an agencythat is only talking to you
about PMACs, please call us.
We have a very strong opinionon that campaign type.
But, just shifting gears intothe different segments, as it
relates to when we're buildingout a campaign for a new client,
we really believe that thereare five basic segments.
(03:34):
We're going to start with thefirst one, which is our buy term
segment.
Give us a little deep dive intowhy we need these buy terms in
the account.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Yeah, in terms of our agency, we look at buy terms as
being the most importantkeywords to be targeting.
A lot of times, even whenclients have a little hesitation
or maybe poor experiences inthe past with PPC, we generally
recommend at least starting withthese keywords, specifically
Buy terms.
They sound exactly what thename is right.
(04:05):
So it's people that areactively looking to buy your
product or service.
So for law firms thinking likedivorce lawyer near me, best
divorce lawyer, things of thatnature, where it's these really
good intent of somebody who'slooking to make an action now,
so a lot of times that's peoplethat have already gone through
the research phase.
So how do I get a divorce inWisconsin?
(04:26):
Or whatever the case may be,how much does a divorce cost?
They've gotten through all ofthat process.
Now they're looking for hey, Iwant to talk to somebody who
wants to work with me and thisis our opportunity as a good
advertiser, good business, toput our hands up and say we are
the top universal lawyer in yourarea or whatever the search is,
and really capitalize there toobviously always have your brand
(04:48):
shown up there, not only forthe traffic but then also, from
you know, visibility standpointas they continue through their
funnel journey and everything.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yeah, so we would say this is the lowest part of the
funnel.
Their wallet is out, they areready to buy, they know what
they want to buy and we justneed to be there to accept and
do a great job in service,correct?
Yep absolutely, tony.
On the Sterling Law website andcampaign, we have many offices,
(05:18):
we have a very large campaign.
We spend a lot of money onadvertising.
What would you say?
What percentage of our campaignand, james, you may know this
because you run the account isthese buy terms?
Speaker 1 (05:32):
It probably depends a lot on if we have too many
leads or not.
So that would be the rightanswer Because the way we think
about these different categoriesis it's full coverage of
research.
So, from the research pointwhich we know, based on client
interviews, we've done withseveral groups of clients that
(05:53):
they're in market, typicallybefore the contact firm, 18
months to three years.
So you know, james, youmentioned a bunch of different
terms before that are more.
You know what happens to thehouse, how to get a divorce,
what's the process, all of those.
Those are up funnel and thenthey keep getting more and more
(06:14):
specific and typically the buyterms are going to get more
stretched out and longer.
There's going to be lesstraffic but you're going to see
more quality.
So I know we have some idealpercentage scenarios.
Do you know what those are offthe top of your head, james?
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Yeah, again, obviously the advertiser's
budget is going to play a parthere, right.
Obviously, in an ideal state,like Tony was talking about, you
do have coverage across allthese different buckets.
I think when we look atbasically a perfect scenario, I
would say at least 30% of yourbudget is really focused here.
It is generally going to be ahigher cost per click.
(06:51):
Generally, when you're thinkingabout keywords that you're
targeting, it turns out otheradvertisers and businesses also
know these folks are really highvalue, right, they're ready to
go.
We're not going to screw aroundwith intake team working with
them.
It's like, ah, I'm not quiteready.
You know, obviously wasted moneypotentially if they end up not
wanting to work with you.
So that is reflected in thesearch results.
(07:13):
So you're going to want to havea high percentage of your
budget in this categoryspecifically From there,
obviously depending on yourmarket and demand, right, like
obviously, larger law firms thatare in, you know, multi areas
and things like that, you knowespecially larger metros are
going to have opportunities tospend even more in this category
.
So it's going to be a littlebit dependent there.
But you know, the main takeawayis like, if you're looking at
(07:36):
prioritization and how you wantto segment your budget in these
different directions.
Assume higher CPCs but thenassume you know a better ROI in
terms of those leads goingthrough your funnel 100%.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Love it.
Going up just a bit in thefunnel, we have our second
segment, which is local terms,and I know from everything you
both have told me 46% of allleads for a law firm come from
the maps, come from local typesearch terms 42%.
(08:10):
Sorry about that.
Give us some detail on theimportance of local terms.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Yeah, so when we're talking about intent right, or
keyword variations here, likelocals, is a huge one.
A lot of people do prefer,based off of research and data
that's out there, to work with alocal company when they can.
So that's something that youcan use to your benefit by
targeting these local keywords.
So it's really simply, fromlike a structure standpoint,
(08:39):
it's going to be your core termsand then some type of city or
geo variation to that.
So divorce lawyer in Milwaukee,wisconsin.
Divorce lawyer in Miami,florida.
Child custody support and thenobviously, whatever metro you're
targeting or where you aresearching for you.
So it's an easy way again tokind of work a little bit more
(09:01):
in terms of focusing oncustomers that are probably a
little bit further along intheir journey.
Like now, they're activelylooking for local businesses for
you.
So you have the opportunity toagain kind of put your hand up
and say, hey, we're a localbusiness, we do this and really
win there.
You can be creative with yourad copy as well.
There as well, like doing alocation insertion, so that when
(09:21):
the user sees your ads, itliterally says you know, divorce
lawyer, perfect, that's whatI'm looking for and it's just
another good way to again, toreally, you know, ensure good
quality of leads and then, youknow, really play into the fact
that you know, like you justsaid, tyler, a lot of people are
looking for local businesses,so, if you are one, there's a
lot of searches out there thatyou can be capitalizing on.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, I, think an interesting part of what you
said is the connecting back towhere the user is and improving
that relevance.
So if I'm searching for divorceattorney Milwaukee and then the
ad is talking about the factthat, oh, that's us, we're a
divorce attorney law firm inMilwaukee, you know, as a user,
(10:01):
I'm thinking, great, that'sexactly what I'm looking for.
I'm going to click on that andbe able to get what I need.
Yeah, exactly yeah, love it.
All right, let's continuemoving up.
Our next segment is researchterms.
Now, I'm a novice here and I'massuming that is, I'm not
potentially ready to buy, but Imay be in market.
(10:22):
I'm trying to understand thescenario.
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
spoil any future topics.
I know we'll probably talkabout offers at some point, but
there's a lot of search volumehere.
These people are likely notgoing to be your I'm ready to
buy tomorrow type leads ifthey're looking for the first
time how to get a divorce intheir area or whatever the case
may be.
So it can be valuable to targetthese searches if you have good
offers on your website to tryand keep them engaged.
Obviously, a divorce in mostcases can take some time for the
(10:56):
user to understand what they'regoing through or whatever, and
come to terms with their optionsmoving forward.
So having a good offer to keepthem engaged when they are going
through the research can bereally your go-ahead in terms of
targeting those types ofsearches.
The biggest thing here is isbecause these users are
generally not as buy ready.
(11:17):
Generally, CPCs are lowerbecause other advertisers are
understanding this.
You know the conversion ratecan vary A lot of times.
When you look at the businessKPIs for these types of
campaigns, that's where you'regoing to see the biggest
mismatch, where maybe you gotsome conversions up front from
these campaigns but thenultimately they didn't end up
get funded or, you know, theygot far further along in the, in
(11:39):
the sales journey, Maybe talkto an attorney and ultimately
said, well, I'm not quite readyfor this, so it can be a really
good tactic to capitalize on.
Obviously, there's a lot ofsearch volume here.
Get your name in the in thelist of future considerations
that they're thinking about.
But in terms of strategy, thisis going to fall a little bit
further down and again, you knowbudget limitations are going to
really give you you know kindof your options if this is
(12:02):
something that we should befocusing on or not.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Love it.
And so just because there'smaybe not as much search volume
or they're not as competitiveterms, it doesn't mean you
shouldn't have them right?
Uh, why?
Why would there's actually?
Speaker 1 (12:17):
a good amount of search volume on a lot of these.
So not not that there's less,they're, they're just less
likely to buy at that point whenthey're searching for these.
So like how, how, it's a lot ofhow and cost and you know, like
, if you think of all the, youknow who, what, where, when, how
, why questions like there are alot of those types of questions
(12:38):
, long tail queries what happensto the marital house, what?
What is the cost of childcustody?
How do you file for divorce?
What's the process for childcustody in Wisconsin?
Like it's a lot of that type ofstuff.
So they're not quite they'reresearching, like they.
They're like, all right, thisis the path, but I don't know
(12:59):
enough to buy yet, I don't knowenough to move forward, so I
need to research.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
It sounds like that's an opportunity to position your
firm as being the expert whenthey are ready to buy.
Maybe they come back direct andthen you're saving on the cost
per click there.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yeah we did it, we did James mentioned said it
perfectly we, we, we talk, wehave another podcast about
offers and these work reallywell if you have offers to give
them and offers aren't.
Get a consultation.
Offers are here's.
Here's a webinar that you canyou can do here's.
(13:36):
Here's some calculators.
Here's some forms.
Here's some.
It's like things before theybuy, cause they're not quite
ready yet, but like they'll makea micro commitment.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Yeah, the way usually our team are looking at
research keywords is like theseare questions potential
customers are asking beforethey're ready to talk to an
attorney or an intake teamperson.
So that's how it should bebroken out in terms of your
strategies.
There's a lot of opportunitiesthere if you can build the right
offers and processes in place,but if you're looking for a bang
(14:07):
for your buck, that buy termand local terms are going to be
your better value upfront.
If you're kind of looking atyour business today and your
primary offers, just you know.
Hey, give us a call if you'reinterested.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
I think this is an interesting point is as a
business owner.
Sometimes I'm going to look atthings in more of a black and
white perspective.
I put a dollar in.
Why didn't I get $4 or $8 or$10 back?
And without the awareness orthe context of what you're
saying in regards to thiscategory, I may be looking at a
report that my agency sent meand been like why are we
(14:43):
spending all this money on thesekeywords that aren't converting
?
Should we cut them all?
And, I think, adding thatcontext to help business owners
and law firm owners understandthat these are lines we're
putting in the water for futurefish and where we'll see, the
conversions are in the buy andlocal terms.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
They aren't going to often come in the research.
I've done this when we firststarted the law firm oh, we're
not getting conversions, let'sshut them all off.
Oh, we get way less conversionsnow.
Overall, we need to look at amixed attribution model so that
we can maximize the total value.
So if we're like, what keywordsare the only keywords that do
(15:24):
conversions, you're probablygoing to hurt your account.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Great reminder there.
Okay, we're going to continuemoving through this funnel and
we're going to go to nowservice-based terms.
So I'm in a family law firm.
My family law firm does allkinds of things right, Divorce
and custody and paternity andaction and all the things You're
saying.
(15:49):
There should be differentkeywords and categories for
these different services.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
there should be different keywords and
categories for these differentservices.
Yeah, definitely, I think, interms of campaign structure, a
lot of times where we going backto your previous question,
tyler, when we kicked off thisis an area where we see a lot of
ill-advised strategy, where alot of times, previous agencies
are setting accounts where allof these keywords, which are
(16:13):
very, you know, right, they havethe relevance of a family law
service, but are very differentcases, different types of folks
that are going through this,they're looking for different
information and ready to convertand combining it all into one
ad group.
So then spend across the boardis going to go into different
areas.
You know, we'll hear itsometimes from clients and
they're like man, I just PPC andall we got was child custody or
(16:36):
whatever the case may be.
And a lot of times we'll lookat the account and these are the
types of things we'll see.
It's like, oh well, they didhave divorce keywords active,
but they had everything blendedtogether or maybe they had loose
, negative keywords and now allthis stuff is bleeding in and
ultimately gave them resultsthat they didn't like.
So I think, with the serviceterms in particular, just the
biggest thing there is justbeing very mindful in terms of
(16:59):
segmentation, both from negativekeyword list perspective to the
actual keywords that you'retargeting to your ad copy
landing page, that you should beobviously focusing on all the
services that are important toyour business, but if you're not
doing this, well, what couldhappen is you could be
potentially allowing more budgetto flow to things that really
aren't that important to yourbusiness.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Yeah, I would say these are again a little higher
up the funnel because they'reeven more generic.
So there's good traffic here,so it's kind of a misleading
indicator.
You're like, oh, I think Ishould be here.
Divorce in Wisconsin is anexample that has a lot of
keyword traffic.
It's not something I don't likebased on lead volume.
It's very rarely been on in theaccount because it's not
(17:46):
something that actually worksthat well.
So it's too high up the funneland you need.
You need either earlier offersand like that's not something
we've been able to develop atthis point.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Love it.
So maybe awareness, butdefinitely not buying signals,
and maybe even less so would beour final.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
They're great for organic Like.
These are where you can findsome really good organic
opportunities and you know, ifyou're paid an organic team or
working together, you're goingto find some really cool wins
there, Because some of these youshould really you should focus
on on in both but, like there'sdifferent application.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Moving on to our final category.
And then, james, I'll prep youfor this question If I have $100
, how am I splitting my $100 upacross these five categories?
So think about that as you'retelling us about our fifth
category.
Fifth and final, which is coreattorney terms.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Yeah, Core attorney terms is exactly what it sounds
like Just really targetingkeywords specific to obviously
having the iteration of lawyeron the keyword.
So where segment four andsegment five differ here is that
in segment four, for serviceterms, you're looking at just
divorce and some variations.
Here in segment five, with coreattorney terms, you're looking
(19:12):
at, you know, divorce lawyersand then you know other
variations added onto that indifferent instances.
So this can be really importantas well.
Obviously it's, you know, alittle bit further down, I would
say, in terms of people lookingfor somebody to come in and
service their problem thatthey're working through.
So it's definitely an importantarea to allocate budget.
(19:34):
Again, as we look at the fullmatrix I know, Tyler, it sounds
like you're queuing me up forthe reveal in terms of my budget
recommendations I do think thatthis one is likely more
important than segment four,even in terms of what you're
targeting that way.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yeah, probably both three and four.
This is probably.
You know you got one, that's aby terms.
Two is local.
Three, from an orderperspective, is probably core
attorney terms, and then you'regoing to go up into research and
then you're going to go off tothe higher research.
So, but yeah, these are, theseare great targets.
(20:10):
This is another example, thoughsimilar to the research terms,
where we've we've done testingbefore, where we won't see tons
of conversions to these or we'llsee conversions but it's going
to be a really high CPA bykeyword but shutting them off
actually has a negative effecton the bottom of the funnel.
So there's likemulti-attribution is really
(20:33):
important and like if you don'tunderstand that in the in in
paid like it, you're right, itdoesn't work for you but it's
because it's not done wellyou're right, it doesn't work
for you, but it's because it'snot done well.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah, to me that's like such a huge call out.
You know, law firm owners andus included you don't have time
to look into the every singledetail and minutiae all day.
Yet if we're hearing from ouragency hey, we're turning off a
bunch of these research termsbecause they're not converting,
that to me is a big red flag,it's a big call out.
And so if you're listening tothis and you're hearing your
(21:11):
agency wanting to cut costsbecause performance isn't there,
and they're doing that throughjust slashing a bunch of
keywords, that may not always bethe right answer.
All right, james.
The big reveal here We've gotfive segments, we've got $100 to
spend.
Right, we're doing like fantasydraft.
Where are we spending our $100?
As it relates to these fivedifferent categories?
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Yeah, so five categories and if we have to
spend in all of them, right,because I am going to advise
$100 budget we're not going togo in all five in a non-fantasy
format here.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, this could be 1,000, could be 10,000, 100,000.
So I'm just trying to make iteasy math.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Yeah, all right, so I'm going to go.
I'm going to stick to my gunson the 30% end of buy terms.
I think obviously, again,demand is going to play a role
here, potentially maybe evenmore if there is the search
volume for it.
But we'll stick to my guns onthe 30% for buy terms here For
local.
I'm going to go next here andgo.
I'm tempted to almost go 30again, but we'll knock it down
(22:08):
just to show the priority levelof buy terms being the number
one spot and we'll go 20 onlocal terms.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
We're 50% of our budget.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
That's the way we do it around here.
Yep, I like it.
Then, from here I'm going to go, let's go another, let's go 15
on core attorney terms.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
So what does that put me to?
We're at 65 for the mathwizards in the room.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
Okay, we've got 25 to work with.
Here.
I'm going to 35 to work withhere.
I'm going to go the remaining35.
We're going to go.
Oh, this is is tough, I mighthave to readjust here we're
gonna.
We're back up for a second.
Okay, so for core eternityterms, I said 15, let's make
(22:54):
that 20.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
So now, we're at 70.
Okay, you're at 70.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Let's go research terms.
There's a lot of search volumehere.
Like I said, I'm gonna assumethat you have good offers on
your site with this one.
Okay, is that fine to saythat's fair?
Sure, okay, we're going to doanother 20 on research terms.
But I want to be clear here inthis recommendation that I'm not
saying that core attorney termsand research terms are equal
(23:19):
per se.
But if we're going to do theexample here to where there's
really great offers on the siteI think you can be successful
here Then the remaining 10 willdo service terms or not at all,
and let's just put it more intobuy terms is the final
recommendation.
So, if you heard nothing else,local and buy the rest, you know
it has value, but not nearly asmuch as it does in the buy and
(23:43):
the local term.
So depending on the way yourbusiness is set up and obviously
how you're working from anoperation standpoint and what
offers you have on your site,there's going to be
opportunities to potentiallyplay in these different buckets.
But ultimately when we'rekicking off with new clients,
we're pushing them right intothe buy terms and local terms
right away and then from thereagain kind of depending on the
(24:10):
business.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
We'll make some decisions on where to allocate.
From that point, I love it.
Yes, nothing set in stone.
There's no silver bulletstrategy here.
It is custom based on where thelaw firm is and what they're
trying to do.
But really appreciate theinsights today.
Gentlemen, this is foundationaland very important knowledge
that we love to share with ourlaw firm community, so I
appreciate it again.
Thanks for your time andlisteners.
Thanks for being here.
(24:30):
If you enjoyed this video andyou want to learn more about our
paid advertising strategy, ourstructure, as we deep dive into
what we do that helps our lawfirm clients grow online, check
out this video and, of course,we'll add a link in the comments
as well.
Thanks, everyone, and we willsee you next time.
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