October 14, 2025 • 35 mins
Law firm metrics made simple: Track your waterfall from calls to clients. Tom's 12-month journey shows exactly what to measure.
Family law firms struggle without proper client acquisition tracking and legal practice benchmarking. This law firm waterfall analysis breaks down every metric from call answer rates to attorney close rate optimization.
📲 Subscribe Now: https://www.youtube.com/@jsterlinghughesÂ
đź“ť Get your FREE Law Firm Growth Guide: https://jsterlinghughes.com/
---
đź“„ CHAPTERS
0:00 - Law Firm Metrics Breakdown: Tom's 12-Month Performance ReviewÂ
4:53 - The Complete Law Firm Waterfall Analysis: Calls to ClientsÂ
8:37 - Sterling's Law Firm Conversion Rates: Real Numbers From a $17M FirmÂ
13:38 - Attorney Close Rate Optimization: Why Sterling Hits 33%Â
16:29 - Legal Practice Benchmarking: How to Compare Your NumbersÂ
20:38 - Attorney Marketing ROI: Working the Waterfall BackwardsÂ
24:55 - Law Firm KPIs Tracking: Cost Per Lead and Budget PlanningÂ
33:03 - Sterling's Marketing Cost Target: The 15-17% Rule
----------------------
Ready to find the accountability partner you need to build your dream family law firm the same way we grew Sterling Lawyers?
Follow these steps:
1. SUBSCRIBE TO JEFF'S NEWSLETTER: https://jsterlinghughes.com/
2. BOOK A FREE 30-MINUTE AUDIT WITH US: https://rocketclicks.com/schedule-a-family-law-quick-audit/
3. CONNECT WITH US:
LinkedIn: Jeff Hughes, Tyler Dolph, & Anthony Karls,
Facebook: Jeff Hughes, Tyler Dolph, & Anthony Karls,
Instagram: Jeff Hughes, Tyler Dolph, & Anthony Karls
4. TELL US WHAT YOU WANT:
Tell us in the comments if you liked this episode and what other kinds of episodes you would like to see.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
The fact that you track leads, consults, and hires
puts you, I'm not exaggeratinghere, above 80% of the family
law firms out there.
At least.
Well, hello, and welcome to theSterling Family Law Show.
My name is Jeff Hughes.
I'm your co-host.
I have with me Tyler Dolph, theother co-host, and we are back
with attorney Tom Harton out ofLong Island, New York.
(00:22):
Now we've been following Tomsince last June of 24, and he is
just completing this month inAugust.
So we're shooting in August, andhe's just completing his 12th
full month as we've beenwatching him build and grow his
firm.
And so today we're going to takea deep dive into what we call
the waterfall.
We're going to look at Tom'snumbers.
(00:43):
We're going to look at Sterling,Sterling's numbers, and kind of
help him benchmark a little bit,share what we're doing.
And so if you want business inyour firm and you have any
struggles at all in trackingthat, this podcast is going to
go deep into that and it's goingto be full of amazing
information on how to look atyour waterfall in your
(01:05):
particular firm.
So welcome back, Tom.
How have you been over the lastmonth?
SPEAKER_01 (01:10):
How are you doing, Jeff and Tyler?
Thanks again for having me on asalways.
This month has been good.
I actually didn't, I kind offorgot that I was coming up on
my one year.
So glad to hear you say that.
But yeah, we're here talkingabout July.
July was another good month, alittle bit slower than the two
months before that, but still uhstill a solid month.
(01:31):
Um so just jump, I'm gonna jumpright into the numbers if that's
okay with you.
So yeah, top line revenue forJuly was nine just about 19,000.
And I had, let's see, nineleads.
And again, I need to starttracking calls separately, but
nine leads.
Uh seven of those leads turnedinto consults, and of those
(01:53):
consults, only two turned intohires, which is a little bit uh
that's a smaller percentage thanusual.
I will say off the top of myhead, I believe one of those
signed on like August 1st orAugust 2nd, but still, uh two
hires for the month of July, um,two files closed.
And again, my total expenses areusually pretty steady around
7,000.
So looking at uh profit of uhabout$12,000 for the month of
(02:17):
July.
SPEAKER_00 (02:18):
Great.
Another another strong month.
So I just want to point out Ilook I'm looking at your numbers
from May, June, and July.
So those are your your trailingthree months, you're averaging
about$22,000 a month.
So for your for where your firmat that is at, that is awesome,
Tom.
So well done there.
Um anecdotally, I want to pointout too that in August, our firm
(02:42):
over the last week and a halfhas slowed down.
That has everything to do withvacations.
So we started off the July wasincredible for us, a record
month.
First week of August was strong,and over the last two weeks,
it's been super slow for allthese vacations.
So um you're not alone in thatfeeling.
SPEAKER_01 (02:58):
Gotcha.
Good to know.
So, based on based on uh yourdata, when does that pick back
up?
SPEAKER_00 (03:03):
Uh, it picks up right after Labor Day.
SPEAKER_01 (03:06):
Okay, cool.
SPEAKER_00 (03:07):
Yeah, so we expect to see it kind of soft over
these last 10 days of the monthor so here in August, and then
get into next month, it'll pickback up.
September and October, and thefirst two weeks of November are
usually our strongest eight orso weeks of the year, eight or
nine weeks of the year.
SPEAKER_01 (03:23):
More so than like March, April.
SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
It's super comparable to that.
Um yeah, so maybe I'm maybe it'sthose 20 weeks combined are our
best 20 weeks, but we're goinginto another another strong
season for us, we expect.
SPEAKER_01 (03:39):
Cool.
Might be time for me to startrunning some ads, which I know
we are also going to talk abouttoday.
SPEAKER_00 (03:44):
Yeah, you're talking about your LSA ads, right?
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
Yes, yes, sorry.
I should use that word moreswiftly.
Google ads.
Oh, how's that?
SPEAKER_00 (03:51):
Yeah, in our prep time for the for this today,
we're we wanted to talk aboutyour waterfall and sterling's
waterfall.
So I'm gonna let you kind ofdirect us where you want to go
here.
What what are you curious aboutand um how can we break down
your numbers, help you outthinking about them?
SPEAKER_01 (04:08):
Sure, yeah.
So I I guess I'm trying tocompare.
I have almost a year's worth ofdata at this point.
So trying to move this windowover, trying to see how my
numbers compare to to your firmand and just to other firms in
general.
Uh, and and I'll admit I am I ambad at tracking, just because I
I have so much on my plate.
(04:28):
So sometimes numbers might beoff by a little bit.
Um, but you know, it's good toknow.
I think what when I am good attracking is how many leads turn
into consults and how manyconsults, obviously, how many
consults turn into clients.
That one that I think I'm prettystrong on tracking.
But in terms of how many, youknow, how many calls.
(04:48):
I guess this is this is how webreak down the waterfall, right?
What's the total number of callsyou get per month?
What percentage of those callsare qualified leads?
And I think we're kind ofdefining that as someone looking
for a divorce or family attorneyin my geographic area.
unknown (05:06):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (05:07):
So total number of calls, what percentage of those
are qualified leads, whatpercentage of those qualified
leads turn into consults, andthen of those consults, what
percent turn into clients?
And I think from my perspective,let's see.
So let's go over.
Oh, I closed out the last threemonths.
Um, are you able to see howmany?
(05:27):
Oh no, here we go.
How many leads I'm averagingover May, June, and July, right
around 10.
Uh, and then number of consultsis probably about seven, and
then number of hires is aboutthree.
unknown (05:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:41):
Looking at what I have.
SPEAKER_01 (05:43):
So of my of my leads, about 70% of those are
turning into consults.
SPEAKER_02 (05:50):
Which is great, by the way.
Oh, thanks.
Like that percentage, I was in Iwas excited to see that the
leads you're getting to yourfirm are qualified and they are
willing to at least have aconversation with you.
SPEAKER_01 (06:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:04):
Now we can have a whole uh podcast on paid versus
free consults and what happensto the behavior.
Um, but the fact that you'regetting those meetings, I think,
is very encouraging.
SPEAKER_01 (06:15):
Good.
Yeah, I I actually thought I'mglad to hear you say that
because I almost think 70%sounds low when I am offering
free consults.
Because, you know, I'm it's kindof odd to imagine a situation
where someone says, I'm lookingfor a divorce lawyer.
Do you offer free consults?
And I say yes, and then theysay, Never mind.
Right.
(06:35):
I guess to say what's that 30%is uh, I don't know, no shows.
You're you're bound to get someof those um cases that resolve
uh you know, people just time tocontact, also though, Tom,
right?
SPEAKER_02 (06:47):
Like you're a busy guy, you got a lot going on in
your life.
If you're not getting back tothese leads within you know the
first five, ten minutes thatthey're coming in.
SPEAKER_01 (06:54):
Yeah.
Oh, and that's that's anotherthing I can mention quickly is I
did it's more of an Augustconversation, but I did bring on
an answering service, uh, whichhas been awesome to make sure,
make sure I'm not missing anycalls.
Um, so that's good.
And then, yeah, my I don't know,my hires, hires from my
consults.
So let's see, about out ofaverage seven consults, I'm
getting about three of thoseturned into clients.
(07:17):
So that's I don't know, under50%.
Um, and then I guess from leadsto hires, that number would be
about 30%.
So I don't know.
I I don't know.
Are those strong numbers?
Are those terrible numbers?
I honestly have no idea.
So um I reached out to you guysto see if you could pull some
data from from your company.
(07:38):
And I know it will be a littledifferent because you you do
paid consults and you do fixedfees.
So you're in a kind of a verydifferent, different universe
than I am right now.
But still, it would that thoseare both places where I hope to
take my firm uh eventually.
So it's good, just would be goodto know to have a benchmark of
what I should be shooting for.
SPEAKER_00 (07:56):
Yeah.
So, Tom, I'm gonna walk youthrough our what we call our
waterfall from call all the wayto funding the agreement.
Um, a couple caveats as I sharethis with you.
You know we're fixed fee, soyou're gonna, it's not an apples
to apples comparison betweenfixed fee and hourly.
We also have about a blend of60% of our consults are done by
(08:18):
non-lawyers.
So that impacts the numbers.
I would argue it impacts thenumbers in a positive direction
for the firm.
And I think our numbers bearthat out.
And I'll I actually break downfor you that if you want to know
that on terms of how they eachclose.
Um, yeah, and I think it andI've learned this from going to
masterminds and talking to otherfamily lawyers.
(08:38):
It is very, very difficult tocompare numbers between firms.
There's so much noise in that,there's so many different ways
that data is input, and there'sso many different definitions
that go into that, that it'sit's just at best directionally
helpful.
So, what I'm sharing with youwill be directionally helpful.
Um, don't like compare likepercentages between the firm and
(08:59):
say, Oh, I suck because I'm notthere, or I'm like gray because
I'm so much better.
Okay.
All right.
So let's start up first withwhat how we report the numbers
from an intake standpoint.
So this is calls coming in.
Over the I'm gonna give you 91days.
I'm kind of gonna stick at 91days because that's that'll help
us say stay consistent as wetalk about numbers across our
(09:21):
waterfall.
We had 62.3, so 62 inbound callsa day.
A day.
Yeah, that's great.
SPEAKER_01 (09:30):
Okay.
So we now we're like your dailyaverage is my my three-month
total.
SPEAKER_00 (09:35):
Well, we're aggressive on what we even count
as inbound.
So we get a ton of calls wedon't count as inbound calls
because they have to do withsubject matter we're not
interested in, we can't helpthem with.
We get marketing calls.
I get like people call, want totalk to Jeff Hughes every day.
Like, I want to, you know, so weget those calls that we have to
weed out.
So, and then we make for whatit's worth, we make about 88
(09:58):
outbound calls.
So we're calling people backthat we weren't able to get to
or whatever.
Um so and then we also do a fairamount of text messaging as
well.
So, out of those calls, those 62inbound calls, we qualified that
what we define as qualified isthey have a family law matter in
(10:21):
our jurisdictions that we canhelp with.
Um we're not making any judgmenton whether or not they have the
funds or the means or the timingis right.
That that doesn't go into it.
But out of those 62, wequalified 53 of them, and we set
means we we scheduled theappointment.
That's a paid consult on 26 orno, excuse me, 23.6 of those.
(10:44):
So 24 of those.
You track them so far?
Okay.
Now, what what's interesting isthat we have a show rate, uh a
show number of 21.
So we set 24 and 21 of themactually show up.
So there are folks who pay forthe console who just disappear
and go away.
Um, some of them come back laterand want a refund or whatever,
(11:06):
which we certainly give them,but you know, that's our set
rate.
Now, on that set rate, we areactually doing a lot to make
sure we have a high set rate.
We're we're we're sending themtext messages, reminding them,
we're calling them, emailingdifferent things for for
different folks.
So the show rate 21 out of that24.
Okay, so that's the intake side.
(11:27):
We're answering over these last21 days, and we are we're
working on improving this.
We're answering 79% of ourcalls.
So 21% are going into whereverthe ether somewhere, hopefully
calling us back.
Uh, maybe they're getting caughtby our answering service and
we're getting a hold of themlater or whatever.
SPEAKER_01 (11:47):
Um, so you're so if someone's if your answering
service is answering it, you'renot counting that as an answered
call.
SPEAKER_00 (11:53):
I can't, I don't know for sure.
I didn't put these numberstogether.
I'm not sure on that.
I I think the answer rate, I'mabout 80% sure that it's our
intake team.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (12:02):
Not not by the yeah, because our ideal situation is
that we answer the phone on theside.
SPEAKER_01 (12:09):
Right.
Which is funny because I I amstarting to switch to having my
answering service do it becausethey will they will book my
consults directly.
SPEAKER_00 (12:18):
Yeah.
Now I we can our gold standardwe're trying to get to is 85%
answer rate.
That's what we're trying to getto.
Now, I've run call centers for along time.
That's a that's a pretty healthyanswer rate.
You're just not going to get to100 unless you want to way over
staff, um, and then you won't beprofitable.
So 85% is what we're trying toget to.
(12:40):
Um, and that number changesbased on a lot of factors.
Seasonality goes into that alittle bit.
And having we should have Maryon the because she could tell
you exactly what's going on withthat.
So, okay, answer rate.
Um we we measure we go deep on alot of this.
We measure overflow set rate.
So the calls that are overflowedto our backup center, we measure
(13:00):
that set rate, and it'scertainly considerably less.
So we do measure a lot of that.
So I'll just stick to the bignumbers right now.
Um, okay, let me shift over tonow we've got the actual consult
in front of us, and we do almostall of ours on video.
So we don't or we don't do it inperson a lot.
I'm gonna give you our entireteam, and if you want to break
(13:24):
it down, I can into non-lawyersand lawyers, but our entire team
will take those sets and they'llget seven hires out of this.
Is the last 91 days, they'll getseven hires out of those 21
shows.
Okay, so they're about a third,so we're that's our our number.
(13:44):
Um, our potential matter value,which we calculate based on what
each client is potentiallyworth, is 10,311 over the last
91 days.
Um, and here's an interestinglittle quirk on this.
We actually get about 8.5 fundedagreements because some folks
come in and they do like aone-hour consult and they come
(14:06):
back and they fund later.
We count that as a part becauseit's like we get technically
it's two funded agreements forthat particular client, but um
out of those 21 shows, 8.5ultimately hire us for a full
rep type of scenario.
SPEAKER_01 (14:22):
And is when do they so you do fixed fee, right?
When do they find out what theirprice is?
Is it on that console?
SPEAKER_00 (14:28):
In that initial console, almost everybody gets a
quote on that initial console.
It's a very high number.
I may have it here somewhere.
I know we have it somewhere, butit's a very high number.
We don't like them to go awaywithout not without knowing what
their what their quote is goingto look like.
Every once in a while,especially on post-judgments,
they're just so complicated, wejust can't quote them there.
(14:50):
It we need to do some follow-upresearch and come back to them,
talk to one of our managingpartners or even a partner if an
associate's doing it.
SPEAKER_01 (14:58):
So could you give, and you can push us to the end
if you want, could you give anexample of a post-judgment, like
why you wouldn't be able toquote it?
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
Um very common one is um we have a we have a
two-year look to bring a caseinto court within two years at
our post-judgment case, let'ssay you're on a custody
placement issue, you can't dothat within two years unless you
show a major change, asubstantial change.
SPEAKER_01 (15:22):
Yeah, we have that too.
It's three years, but we haveokay.
SPEAKER_00 (15:24):
So for us, it's two, and then even after that,
there's some it's a lesseningstandard.
And so what qualifies asubstantial change is varies by
county by county, by judge, andyou just you just gotta have the
experience to know that.
It's it's not yeah, we can'tjust go look it up and say, Oh,
okay, that qualifies.
So that's a common one.
SPEAKER_01 (15:44):
Okay, so it's not so much an issue of how much to
quote, right?
It it's or is it more of likewhether whether I can give you a
quote at all?
SPEAKER_00 (15:52):
Well, how much to quote is based on what we
anticipate the work to be, andon some some of these, we don't
know, like a younger attorneywon't have inexperience, one
won't have as much knowledge tofall back on.
So that's one.
And the other one would be can Ieven is this even a case we can
handle?
Because I don't know if there'senough of a change of
circumstances.
So that would be a legalanalysis and then a kind of a
(16:12):
business analysis for both ofthose.
SPEAKER_01 (16:15):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (16:17):
So so our close rate is 33%.
So let's just kind of overlaythat with your close rate.
You're closing three out ofseven, so you're actually
closing better than us.
SPEAKER_01 (16:28):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (16:31):
Now there are other hourly firms that are above 50%
that I know of.
SPEAKER_01 (16:35):
Of course, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
And so, you know, how qualified are they is their
data, right?
You know, like how qualified aretheir leads or their sets?
Maybe they're ultra qualifiedbecause they have a$500 consult
and they have they've alreadyasked them if they have$10,000
to pay the initial retainer.
So there's so many ways to slicethis up.
It's so hard to compare.
SPEAKER_02 (16:55):
Right.
And I Tom, what's your um what'syour gut on the reason or the
majority of reasons why peopledon't end up closing with you?
SPEAKER_01 (17:08):
Um that's a great question.
I I don't know that I have ananswer to that.
Um yeah, I don't I really don'tknow.
SPEAKER_00 (17:20):
Um also, Tom, around 30% of our sets that come see us
never go to court.
Meaning they never have a case.
Never their case never maturesinto a legal matter.
They just had, you know, theyhad a rough time in their
marriage, they want to get someadvice, um, you know, a whole
bunch of reasons why they wouldcome in and talk to us.
So you back that out, all of asudden our close rate for people
(17:42):
that actually litigateskyrockets right into the 60s,
high 60s.
SPEAKER_01 (17:46):
So um Yeah, and I and I think that that's that's
probably a a good answer toTyler's question.
You know, given that I do offerfree consults, I think I do get
a lot of people that are justcoming in looking for some
advice.
Maybe, you know, maybe they'rethinking, thinking about a
divorce, but they're not reallysure if they want to do it yet.
(18:06):
Um I don't know.
I I assume there's somepercentage that just decides to
go with another firm, uh, but II don't know what that
percentage is.
Um but yeah, there theredefinitely is a fair amount of
people.
And and I could I can tellpretty quickly whether someone
is serious about wanting to, youknow, move forward with the case
or they've already been served,you know, in which case they
(18:26):
have no choice.
Um you know, versus someonewho's just kind of feeling
things out, something like that.
Um and you know, I two things Iwould I would love to do, which
we've talked about before, is Imean one going to paid consults,
but there there are just thereare two uh major firms in my
area that I know offer freeconsults.
(18:47):
And they're they are like themajor players.
It's two firms that probablymake up like a third of the
attorneys in my area.
Um, you know, and they offerfree consults.
So that's hard to hard tocompete against to to moving to
paid consults.
Um and then the other one isfixed fee, which you know, we've
talked about it in New Yorkcomes with some is a little bit
more difficult based on ourrules of professional conduct.
(19:09):
Um, but I think you know thepaid consult one is is
definitely tricky.
SPEAKER_02 (19:14):
Yeah, I think we should do a whole uh podcast on
that, Jeff, on paid versus Ohyeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:19):
I've been thinking about that since a few minutes
ago when that came up.
That's that'd be a greatpodcast.
SPEAKER_02 (19:23):
Yeah, a lot of psychological benefits to
getting people to commit early.
And though it may change yourcall to consult rate, my guess
is it will increase your closerate.
SPEAKER_00 (19:35):
Yep, yeah, I agree.
We've got a lot of data on bothboth sides of that equation.
So we could actually puttogether a really good
side-by-side comparison of thebehavioral differences.
SPEAKER_01 (19:46):
Yeah.
And then, yeah, another factoris right.
I just got this answeringservice, answering legal.
They're a very well-knowncompany.
I'm sure you've heard of them.
Um, so that's who's answering myphone now.
They're booking consults.
And I'm sure they'll be great atbooking free consults, but
because again, that's that's notdifficult.
That person's already found meand reached out to me.
But would they be great atbooking paid consults?
(20:08):
Probably not, right?
That's I would probably wantsomeone in-house doing that.
SPEAKER_02 (20:12):
Well, I think this is back to the data point.
And Tom, I want to commend youon your use and leverage of
data.
And I think any of our listenerswho are not tracking at least
calls, consult rate, close rate,this is an easy thing that can
be done that will definitelyinform your firm and able to
improve it.
(20:32):
Um, but it'd be also Tominteresting to see, okay, from
call to consult rate, how's theanswering service doing versus
if you answered every call?
SPEAKER_01 (20:43):
Right.
Yeah, I don't have that.
It's only been two weeks, so Idon't have that data yet.
Um and it was it was great timebecause I was on I was on trial
and then immediately went onvacation.
So getting that answeringservice was that, you know, for
the two weeks they would havebeen amazing because my
answering rate would have beenhorrendous, um, particularly
while I was on trial.
And then one of oh yeah, so oneother thing I was gonna say for
(21:04):
my just in terms of the numberof calls I'm getting, I base
that number again.
I I'm I am very poor at trackingevery call that I get.
Um, and then you know, markinghow many are just garbage calls,
ad calls, uh, you know,telemarketers, stuff like that.
But I I do get the Googleanalytic reports every month,
and I will say uh March, whichwas from March, which was the I
(21:28):
believe you guys came on, I umretained Rocket Clicks, I guess
that's a better word to use, uh,in February 15th.
I guess that's when we startedworking together.
Um and so up till now, so we'rewe're coming up right on on six
months of that.
And I'll say, so I looked at myMarch call volume compared to
July.
So a four only a four-monthdifference there, right?
(21:50):
April, May, June.
Yeah.
And I had 17 calls in March, andI had 26 in July.
So things are, and that's allorganic, right?
Haven't run any ads.
So things are starting todefinitely starting to pick up.
Again, that is that is allMassapiqua.
Um, that's uh you know, allstill my Nassau County office.
So I think if I could get asecond office similar to this
(22:13):
location, and I and I have Ihave some ideas in mind of
actually I have one locationthat you know, if I were to pull
the Melville office and openanother office in Suffolk
County, um, I do have a locationin mind that I think would would
crush it, would be just as goodas Mass Pekua.
Um that plus plus starting torun some ads, I think, I think
I'd see a pretty strong fall.
SPEAKER_00 (22:33):
Tom, you you're kind of hard on yourself here.
The fact that you track leads,consults, and hires put you, I'm
not exaggerating, you're above80% of the family law firms out
there.
At least.
SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
So cool.
All right.
So this, I guess maybe now anydid you have anything else on
the waterfall?
I would love to talk about theGoogle.
SPEAKER_00 (22:52):
Any other questions you have there?
And then I'll pass it over toTyler and talk about your LSAs.
SPEAKER_01 (22:57):
Yeah, that was that was really helpful.
Again, it is, like you said,kind of a bit comparing apples
to oranges, especially based onyou know paid consults and the
fact that you do fixed fee.
But so yeah, as expected, youknow, you're gonna, I'm probably
gonna have a um, what do youcall it?
Higher I'm gonna get more higherpercentage of consults out of
(23:18):
calls because they're free.
Uh, but you're probably going tohave a higher closing rate after
those consults.
Um, and that's that's prettymuch what I was expecting.
Um so yeah, hopefully I'll I'llget more data over the next few
months.
Hopefully that call volume justcontinues to pick up um you know
in September and October.
And yeah, that plus running someads and and potentially another
(23:38):
office will hopefully startseeing things really really
start uh picking up.
So yeah, Google Ads, what what Iam and again, we this will be
again probably another apples toorange comparison because we are
comparing uh you know Wisconsinto the uh New York City suburb.
Um but I'm curious, I could Ithink so.
(24:00):
Maybe the cost might not be thesame, right?
What is what is an an averageLSA?
I guess we'll just use the termLSA, right?
Because that's probably what Iwould run um rather than a PPC
campaign or something like that.
Um so what what like ROI do youexpect to see on an LSA
campaign?
And Jeff, do you have thesterling LSA?
SPEAKER_00 (24:21):
I don't have the sterling, no, I don't have that.
SPEAKER_01 (24:24):
And so my it's kind of it's almost to me like trying
to work the waterfall backwards,right?
Because if I I'm saying, let'ssay how many clients do I want
to sign per month?
And I think I would, you know,if I'm trying to traditionally
that number has been about four,that's where I would be
comfortable.
If I'm trying to hire someone, Iwant to get that number up to
six, right?
(24:45):
So let's say I want to sign sixclients per month.
Now that I have this data, youknow, the waterfall data kind of
work backwards.
All right, how manyconsultations do I need?
Right.
So if if I'm finding that sevenconsults turned into three
leads, uh three clients, I mean,if I want three clients, then I
would need 14 consults.
How many of those, in order toget 14 consults, how many leads
(25:06):
do I need?
And if I want that number ofleads, how many calls do I need
to get?
SPEAKER_02 (25:10):
Yep.
You are thinking about that inthe absolute correct way, right?
The thing to remember is that asyou turn on ads, your call
volume will absolutely increase.
The percentage of qualifiedleads will probably decrease at
the beginning, would be myguess.
SPEAKER_01 (25:27):
The percentage will decrease, right?
Not the number.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:30):
Not the number, the percentage of qualified leads
will decrease, but the numberwill increase.
So we did a some quick math foryou.
And knowing, okay, we want toget 36 more leads for you, we
believe that if you spent$5,000at a cost per lead of$140 per
lead, you would generate 36 moreleads uh with that additional$5K
(25:53):
in budget based on okay.
SPEAKER_01 (25:56):
So 36 more leads using my numbers.
SPEAKER_02 (26:00):
And if you assumed a 15% close rate of those 36,
that'd be five additionalclients.
Is that where is that what mynumber said?
SPEAKER_01 (26:08):
Five 15%?
SPEAKER_02 (26:09):
That is what I'm assuming your close rate would
be.
SPEAKER_01 (26:12):
Okay.
Oh, because you're okay, becauseyou're saying that the leads
will drop.
That's right.
Um, okay, so that would get meto five a month.
So you're thinking 36 leads permonth turns into five signed
clients per month.
SPEAKER_02 (26:27):
Correct.
SPEAKER_01 (26:27):
Okay.
I'm leveraging a platform likeLSA.
And how did you how did you comeup with the 5,000 number?
SPEAKER_02 (26:34):
Uh so we looked at two different budget options.
One was 5,000 and the other onewas 10,000.
Um, if you wanted to spend the10,000 with the same close rate
of 15%, there would actually be71 leads um and potentially 11
new clients.
SPEAKER_01 (26:49):
Okay.
And so let's say that is inthat's in addition to everything
to everything I'm already doing,right?
So if I'm already getting two orthree per month, uh, so then I
really, you know, I'd be happy,you know, getting that same
number out of the ads, right?
So if if I change that fivesigned clients per month from
(27:11):
the ad campaign, reduced it intothree, realistically, it could
be like 3,000 a month.
SPEAKER_02 (27:16):
Correct.
SPEAKER_01 (27:17):
Okay, interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (27:19):
Yep, there's a lot, there's a there's a ramp up law,
and then there's a law ofdiminishing returns as you think
about uh leveraging ads in uh inand around your law firm
location.
There's also the realizationthat other people are doing the
exact same thing you're doing.
So there's competition in thespace, the cost per lead is
going to fluctuate based on thenumber of competitors in the
space.
And so that's why we always pushour clients to focus on local
(27:42):
visibility specifically in themaps and organic first, and then
leverage ads to uh essentiallyput gas on the fire.
SPEAKER_01 (27:52):
So here's a question for you that you haven't prepped
for, but I'm sure you know theanswer off the top of your head
because this is what you do.
How do Google ads, how do Icompare with somebody else,
right?
So let's say another majorplayer in my area, um, right?
Let's say we both have fivestars, but mine is based on 50
(28:13):
reviews, and this person's isbased on 500 reviews.
Uh so how would how do I competewith that person in the Google
ad space?
Is it all money based?
So like how let's say we'reboth, you know, we're both
running ads in Massapua.
Um, but hit my office is inMassapiqua and his is not.
(28:33):
Let's say his is 15, 20 minutesaway.
Does that give me an advantagein in the LSAs?
Like where my office location,what are the major factors that
go into that?
SPEAKER_02 (28:43):
Yeah, is it just name, address, uh, phone number.
So consistency of informationacross the web as it relates to
where your information is islisted, not only on your
website, but on directories andfine law and super lawyer and
all those things.
Um, number of reviews, and thenbudget.
Those would be like the threemajor categories.
(29:04):
Obviously, there's a lot moregoing on within the algorithm,
but if everything was equal andyou were in uh MassPua and the
search took place in MassPiqua,and the search was divorce
attorney near me or divorceattorney in Mass Pequa, uh, then
you would have a higher chanceof ranking above a competitor
(29:24):
outside of that space ifeverything else remained equal.
SPEAKER_01 (29:28):
Okay.
Yeah, because I I know again ofone firm that's spending over
100 grand a month in Google Ads.
I know that for a fact.
Uh obviously I'm nowhere nearbeing able to compete with that.
Um, so that's good, just knowingthat.
It's doing everything else.
His office is 20 minutes away,right?
Then yeah, that at least givesme some edge there.
SPEAKER_02 (29:50):
And then everything else comes into the equation,
right?
Are you answering the call ontime?
Are you empathetic and can youhear the, you know, can you have
good bed.
manner with the potentialclient?
Can you book the console?
Can the console go, you know, soall there's so many factors that
go into this, but it's from avisibility standpoint, being
able to leverage ads, whetherit's search or LSA, is gonna is
(30:14):
going to allow you to increaseyour visibility.
SPEAKER_01 (30:17):
Gotcha.
And if what what type of ROI doyou expect on a Google ad?
So if you're running, let's sayI'm running an ad campaign of
5,000 a month, do you know atyour firm, obviously this is
going to be specific to mynumbers, do you see like a three
times return on that, a fivetimes return on that, a two
(30:37):
times return on that?
What like what do you expect outof that?
SPEAKER_02 (30:40):
Well I think it depends on the mission, right?
If you're leveraging Google adsor ads in general as a uh cherry
on top as I just need more leadsto fill the capacity I have,
then I'm gonna have a differentperspective on what my return
needs to be on that because Ialready have the attorneys,
right?
I already have the capacity.
(31:00):
I just need to fill it up.
So even if it's breakeven or abit above breakeven, I'm still
winning because I'm filling thecapacity and and and uh
offsetting the expense that I'vehad.
If I'm sitting in your shoes,I'm saying well I'm only gonna
do ads if it's gonna be hyperprofitable because I have a
limited amount of capacity.
SPEAKER_01 (31:20):
Yeah.
So yeah so I guess I'm imaginingthe scenario where I were to
hire someone I don't know afterlike two, three months from now
and I say, all right now I havethis attorney I'm not quite
getting the amount of leads Ineed from organic to get this or
turn at least at the start tomake this attorney profitable
you know I need to crank on theads.
(31:41):
Then it's then it comes thequestion of risk.
SPEAKER_02 (31:43):
Right?
If it were me I want to fillthat attorney up and pay for
that salary as fast as I can andI'm willing to do so at a
break-even rate but then overtime I expect that to become
more profitable.
SPEAKER_01 (31:55):
Yeah would you ever recommend again your answer
could be this a topic foranother day which is totally
fine someone to operate at aloss for a short time period if
they if there's a goodopportunity for them.
SPEAKER_02 (32:09):
Again risk profile right I know Jeff Jeff and I are
both kind of hypervisionariesbig risk takers are willing to
to see a solution take shape andand definitely willing to take
that risk but you know that's toeach their own on on how far
into the pool they want to wade.
SPEAKER_00 (32:28):
Yeah I feel constrained because I am like
that I'm a big risk taker butstamp kids at home yeah do you
have any perspective on that andkind of when when you were
starting Sterling well we'vewe've yeah we've gone negative
before and it's no fun and youreally can't do that in a direct
response type of strategy whichis kind of where you're at
almost right now in terms of youspend you want to get paid
(32:50):
you're not trying to brand withthat um I can give you
directional answers to yourprevious question on LSA return
what you're looking at.
I don't have that data in frontof me I know we have it on your
team somewhere uh Tyler but withrespect to what we look at is we
want our sales and our marketingcosts or our marketing and our
sales team all combined under17% that's what we target and we
(33:15):
are we're around 15 right now soum 15% now there's also blended
in there just return clientsthat we're not paying for to get
back.
There's just name recognitionand blended into that we've had
it as high as in the 30s beforein our earlier days where we
were just trying to spend andget growth and cover our costs
and that sort of thing.
(33:35):
So you know I wouldn't expectyour on your situation to be
below where we're at as a moremature 11 year old firm.
SPEAKER_01 (33:44):
So that just helps you get a sense for you know my
maybe where you can be right andfor the record I I am I would be
completely fine with a with abreak even temporarily because I
do have and when I say breakeven I mean I don't even have to
pay myself a salary right if Ican hire an associate again
(34:05):
probably a topic for another daybut if I can hire an associate
that can cover their salary plusyou know my marketing expenses
that's that's all I need for nowjust knowing that it would it
would grow from there.
SPEAKER_02 (34:17):
Right because you're investing in growth and that's
your mindset.
And I think that's reallyimportant to anyone listening to
this they may not be in thatsame position right they may be
in a this is my only job and Ineed this to survive and put
food on the table they're gonnamake different decisions and and
I would recommend they makedifferent decisions.
Yeah of course of course okayall right a lot to think about
(34:38):
yeah maybe let's in terms ofnext month let's kind of come
back Tyler with some ideas forTom on incremental FAs or funded
agreements what what would thatlook like as he's looking at
maybe adding another associatewhat can he what can he spend to
get those incremental abovewhere he's at now or what do you
mean by that well I now you'reyou're you're spending 3500 to
(35:01):
5000 a month and you're gettingthree hires out of that every
month right so what would whatwould that look like to move
that to seven what would fourincremental funded agreements
how much more do you have tospend to get to the seven if you
wanted that I'm just pickingnumbers up here I don't know
what what you were looking forbut it's probably going to be in
the LSAs or the page search Idid yeah I think that'd be a
(35:23):
good episode Tom as we reallyjust kind of dive into that
topic of like okay I'm I I'vegrown to where I am I'm looking
to add capacity in the form ofan associate.
What should I be thinking aboutas it relates to making this
hire
The fact that you track leads, consults, and hires
puts you, I'm not exaggeratinghere, above 80% of the family
law firms out there.
At least.
Well, hello, and welcome to theSterling Family Law Show.
My name is Jeff Hughes.
I'm your co-host.
I have with me Tyler Dolph, theother co-host, and we are back
with attorney Tom Harton out ofLong Island, New York.
(00:22):
Now we've been following Tomsince last June of 24, and he is
just completing this month inAugust.
So we're shooting in August, andhe's just completing his 12th
full month as we've beenwatching him build and grow his
firm.
And so today we're going to takea deep dive into what we call
the waterfall.
We're going to look at Tom'snumbers.
(00:43):
We're going to look at Sterling,Sterling's numbers, and kind of
help him benchmark a little bit,share what we're doing.
And so if you want business inyour firm and you have any
struggles at all in trackingthat, this podcast is going to
go deep into that and it's goingto be full of amazing
information on how to look atyour waterfall in your
(01:05):
particular firm.
So welcome back, Tom.
How have you been over the lastmonth?
SPEAKER_01 (01:10):
How are you doing, Jeff and Tyler?
Thanks again for having me on asalways.
This month has been good.
I actually didn't, I kind offorgot that I was coming up on
my one year.
So glad to hear you say that.
But yeah, we're here talkingabout July.
July was another good month, alittle bit slower than the two
months before that, but still uhstill a solid month.
(01:31):
Um so just jump, I'm gonna jumpright into the numbers if that's
okay with you.
So yeah, top line revenue forJuly was nine just about 19,000.
And I had, let's see, nineleads.
And again, I need to starttracking calls separately, but
nine leads.
Uh seven of those leads turnedinto consults, and of those
(01:53):
consults, only two turned intohires, which is a little bit uh
that's a smaller percentage thanusual.
I will say off the top of myhead, I believe one of those
signed on like August 1st orAugust 2nd, but still, uh two
hires for the month of July, um,two files closed.
And again, my total expenses areusually pretty steady around
7,000.
So looking at uh profit of uhabout$12,000 for the month of
(02:17):
July.
SPEAKER_00 (02:18):
Great.
Another another strong month.
So I just want to point out Ilook I'm looking at your numbers
from May, June, and July.
So those are your your trailingthree months, you're averaging
about$22,000 a month.
So for your for where your firmat that is at, that is awesome,
Tom.
So well done there.
Um anecdotally, I want to pointout too that in August, our firm
(02:42):
over the last week and a halfhas slowed down.
That has everything to do withvacations.
So we started off the July wasincredible for us, a record
month.
First week of August was strong,and over the last two weeks,
it's been super slow for allthese vacations.
So um you're not alone in thatfeeling.
SPEAKER_01 (02:58):
Gotcha.
Good to know.
So, based on based on uh yourdata, when does that pick back
up?
SPEAKER_00 (03:03):
Uh, it picks up right after Labor Day.
SPEAKER_01 (03:06):
Okay, cool.
SPEAKER_00 (03:07):
Yeah, so we expect to see it kind of soft over
these last 10 days of the monthor so here in August, and then
get into next month, it'll pickback up.
September and October, and thefirst two weeks of November are
usually our strongest eight orso weeks of the year, eight or
nine weeks of the year.
SPEAKER_01 (03:23):
More so than like March, April.
SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
It's super comparable to that.
Um yeah, so maybe I'm maybe it'sthose 20 weeks combined are our
best 20 weeks, but we're goinginto another another strong
season for us, we expect.
SPEAKER_01 (03:39):
Cool.
Might be time for me to startrunning some ads, which I know
we are also going to talk abouttoday.
SPEAKER_00 (03:44):
Yeah, you're talking about your LSA ads, right?
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
Yes, yes, sorry.
I should use that word moreswiftly.
Google ads.
Oh, how's that?
SPEAKER_00 (03:51):
Yeah, in our prep time for the for this today,
we're we wanted to talk aboutyour waterfall and sterling's
waterfall.
So I'm gonna let you kind ofdirect us where you want to go
here.
What what are you curious aboutand um how can we break down
your numbers, help you outthinking about them?
SPEAKER_01 (04:08):
Sure, yeah.
So I I guess I'm trying tocompare.
I have almost a year's worth ofdata at this point.
So trying to move this windowover, trying to see how my
numbers compare to to your firmand and just to other firms in
general.
Uh, and and I'll admit I am I ambad at tracking, just because I
I have so much on my plate.
(04:28):
So sometimes numbers might beoff by a little bit.
Um, but you know, it's good toknow.
I think what when I am good attracking is how many leads turn
into consults and how manyconsults, obviously, how many
consults turn into clients.
That one that I think I'm prettystrong on tracking.
But in terms of how many, youknow, how many calls.
(04:48):
I guess this is this is how webreak down the waterfall, right?
What's the total number of callsyou get per month?
What percentage of those callsare qualified leads?
And I think we're kind ofdefining that as someone looking
for a divorce or family attorneyin my geographic area.
unknown (05:06):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (05:07):
So total number of calls, what percentage of those
are qualified leads, whatpercentage of those qualified
leads turn into consults, andthen of those consults, what
percent turn into clients?
And I think from my perspective,let's see.
So let's go over.
Oh, I closed out the last threemonths.
Um, are you able to see howmany?
(05:27):
Oh no, here we go.
How many leads I'm averagingover May, June, and July, right
around 10.
Uh, and then number of consultsis probably about seven, and
then number of hires is aboutthree.
unknown (05:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:41):
Looking at what I have.
SPEAKER_01 (05:43):
So of my of my leads, about 70% of those are
turning into consults.
SPEAKER_02 (05:50):
Which is great, by the way.
Oh, thanks.
Like that percentage, I was in Iwas excited to see that the
leads you're getting to yourfirm are qualified and they are
willing to at least have aconversation with you.
SPEAKER_01 (06:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (06:04):
Now we can have a whole uh podcast on paid versus
free consults and what happensto the behavior.
Um, but the fact that you'regetting those meetings, I think,
is very encouraging.
SPEAKER_01 (06:15):
Good.
Yeah, I I actually thought I'mglad to hear you say that
because I almost think 70%sounds low when I am offering
free consults.
Because, you know, I'm it's kindof odd to imagine a situation
where someone says, I'm lookingfor a divorce lawyer.
Do you offer free consults?
And I say yes, and then theysay, Never mind.
Right.
(06:35):
I guess to say what's that 30%is uh, I don't know, no shows.
You're you're bound to get someof those um cases that resolve
uh you know, people just time tocontact, also though, Tom,
right?
SPEAKER_02 (06:47):
Like you're a busy guy, you got a lot going on in
your life.
If you're not getting back tothese leads within you know the
first five, ten minutes thatthey're coming in.
SPEAKER_01 (06:54):
Yeah.
Oh, and that's that's anotherthing I can mention quickly is I
did it's more of an Augustconversation, but I did bring on
an answering service, uh, whichhas been awesome to make sure,
make sure I'm not missing anycalls.
Um, so that's good.
And then, yeah, my I don't know,my hires, hires from my
consults.
So let's see, about out ofaverage seven consults, I'm
getting about three of thoseturned into clients.
(07:17):
So that's I don't know, under50%.
Um, and then I guess from leadsto hires, that number would be
about 30%.
So I don't know.
I I don't know.
Are those strong numbers?
Are those terrible numbers?
I honestly have no idea.
So um I reached out to you guysto see if you could pull some
data from from your company.
(07:38):
And I know it will be a littledifferent because you you do
paid consults and you do fixedfees.
So you're in a kind of a verydifferent, different universe
than I am right now.
But still, it would that thoseare both places where I hope to
take my firm uh eventually.
So it's good, just would be goodto know to have a benchmark of
what I should be shooting for.
SPEAKER_00 (07:56):
Yeah.
So, Tom, I'm gonna walk youthrough our what we call our
waterfall from call all the wayto funding the agreement.
Um, a couple caveats as I sharethis with you.
You know we're fixed fee, soyou're gonna, it's not an apples
to apples comparison betweenfixed fee and hourly.
We also have about a blend of60% of our consults are done by
(08:18):
non-lawyers.
So that impacts the numbers.
I would argue it impacts thenumbers in a positive direction
for the firm.
And I think our numbers bearthat out.
And I'll I actually break downfor you that if you want to know
that on terms of how they eachclose.
Um, yeah, and I think it andI've learned this from going to
masterminds and talking to otherfamily lawyers.
(08:38):
It is very, very difficult tocompare numbers between firms.
There's so much noise in that,there's so many different ways
that data is input, and there'sso many different definitions
that go into that, that it'sit's just at best directionally
helpful.
So, what I'm sharing with youwill be directionally helpful.
Um, don't like compare likepercentages between the firm and
(08:59):
say, Oh, I suck because I'm notthere, or I'm like gray because
I'm so much better.
Okay.
All right.
So let's start up first withwhat how we report the numbers
from an intake standpoint.
So this is calls coming in.
Over the I'm gonna give you 91days.
I'm kind of gonna stick at 91days because that's that'll help
us say stay consistent as wetalk about numbers across our
(09:21):
waterfall.
We had 62.3, so 62 inbound callsa day.
A day.
Yeah, that's great.
SPEAKER_01 (09:30):
Okay.
So we now we're like your dailyaverage is my my three-month
total.
SPEAKER_00 (09:35):
Well, we're aggressive on what we even count
as inbound.
So we get a ton of calls wedon't count as inbound calls
because they have to do withsubject matter we're not
interested in, we can't helpthem with.
We get marketing calls.
I get like people call, want totalk to Jeff Hughes every day.
Like, I want to, you know, so weget those calls that we have to
weed out.
So, and then we make for whatit's worth, we make about 88
(09:58):
outbound calls.
So we're calling people backthat we weren't able to get to
or whatever.
Um so and then we also do a fairamount of text messaging as
well.
So, out of those calls, those 62inbound calls, we qualified that
what we define as qualified isthey have a family law matter in
(10:21):
our jurisdictions that we canhelp with.
Um we're not making any judgmenton whether or not they have the
funds or the means or the timingis right.
That that doesn't go into it.
But out of those 62, wequalified 53 of them, and we set
means we we scheduled theappointment.
That's a paid consult on 26 orno, excuse me, 23.6 of those.
(10:44):
So 24 of those.
You track them so far?
Okay.
Now, what what's interesting isthat we have a show rate, uh a
show number of 21.
So we set 24 and 21 of themactually show up.
So there are folks who pay forthe console who just disappear
and go away.
Um, some of them come back laterand want a refund or whatever,
(11:06):
which we certainly give them,but you know, that's our set
rate.
Now, on that set rate, we areactually doing a lot to make
sure we have a high set rate.
We're we're we're sending themtext messages, reminding them,
we're calling them, emailingdifferent things for for
different folks.
So the show rate 21 out of that24.
Okay, so that's the intake side.
(11:27):
We're answering over these last21 days, and we are we're
working on improving this.
We're answering 79% of ourcalls.
So 21% are going into whereverthe ether somewhere, hopefully
calling us back.
Uh, maybe they're getting caughtby our answering service and
we're getting a hold of themlater or whatever.
SPEAKER_01 (11:47):
Um, so you're so if someone's if your answering
service is answering it, you'renot counting that as an answered
call.
SPEAKER_00 (11:53):
I can't, I don't know for sure.
I didn't put these numberstogether.
I'm not sure on that.
I I think the answer rate, I'mabout 80% sure that it's our
intake team.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (12:02):
Not not by the yeah, because our ideal situation is
that we answer the phone on theside.
SPEAKER_01 (12:09):
Right.
Which is funny because I I amstarting to switch to having my
answering service do it becausethey will they will book my
consults directly.
SPEAKER_00 (12:18):
Yeah.
Now I we can our gold standardwe're trying to get to is 85%
answer rate.
That's what we're trying to getto.
Now, I've run call centers for along time.
That's a that's a pretty healthyanswer rate.
You're just not going to get to100 unless you want to way over
staff, um, and then you won't beprofitable.
So 85% is what we're trying toget to.
(12:40):
Um, and that number changesbased on a lot of factors.
Seasonality goes into that alittle bit.
And having we should have Maryon the because she could tell
you exactly what's going on withthat.
So, okay, answer rate.
Um we we measure we go deep on alot of this.
We measure overflow set rate.
So the calls that are overflowedto our backup center, we measure
(13:00):
that set rate, and it'scertainly considerably less.
So we do measure a lot of that.
So I'll just stick to the bignumbers right now.
Um, okay, let me shift over tonow we've got the actual consult
in front of us, and we do almostall of ours on video.
So we don't or we don't do it inperson a lot.
I'm gonna give you our entireteam, and if you want to break
(13:24):
it down, I can into non-lawyersand lawyers, but our entire team
will take those sets and they'llget seven hires out of this.
Is the last 91 days, they'll getseven hires out of those 21
shows.
Okay, so they're about a third,so we're that's our our number.
(13:44):
Um, our potential matter value,which we calculate based on what
each client is potentiallyworth, is 10,311 over the last
91 days.
Um, and here's an interestinglittle quirk on this.
We actually get about 8.5 fundedagreements because some folks
come in and they do like aone-hour consult and they come
(14:06):
back and they fund later.
We count that as a part becauseit's like we get technically
it's two funded agreements forthat particular client, but um
out of those 21 shows, 8.5ultimately hire us for a full
rep type of scenario.
SPEAKER_01 (14:22):
And is when do they so you do fixed fee, right?
When do they find out what theirprice is?
Is it on that console?
SPEAKER_00 (14:28):
In that initial console, almost everybody gets a
quote on that initial console.
It's a very high number.
I may have it here somewhere.
I know we have it somewhere, butit's a very high number.
We don't like them to go awaywithout not without knowing what
their what their quote is goingto look like.
Every once in a while,especially on post-judgments,
they're just so complicated, wejust can't quote them there.
(14:50):
It we need to do some follow-upresearch and come back to them,
talk to one of our managingpartners or even a partner if an
associate's doing it.
SPEAKER_01 (14:58):
So could you give, and you can push us to the end
if you want, could you give anexample of a post-judgment, like
why you wouldn't be able toquote it?
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
Um very common one is um we have a we have a
two-year look to bring a caseinto court within two years at
our post-judgment case, let'ssay you're on a custody
placement issue, you can't dothat within two years unless you
show a major change, asubstantial change.
SPEAKER_01 (15:22):
Yeah, we have that too.
It's three years, but we haveokay.
SPEAKER_00 (15:24):
So for us, it's two, and then even after that,
there's some it's a lesseningstandard.
And so what qualifies asubstantial change is varies by
county by county, by judge, andyou just you just gotta have the
experience to know that.
It's it's not yeah, we can'tjust go look it up and say, Oh,
okay, that qualifies.
So that's a common one.
SPEAKER_01 (15:44):
Okay, so it's not so much an issue of how much to
quote, right?
It it's or is it more of likewhether whether I can give you a
quote at all?
SPEAKER_00 (15:52):
Well, how much to quote is based on what we
anticipate the work to be, andon some some of these, we don't
know, like a younger attorneywon't have inexperience, one
won't have as much knowledge tofall back on.
So that's one.
And the other one would be can Ieven is this even a case we can
handle?
Because I don't know if there'senough of a change of
circumstances.
So that would be a legalanalysis and then a kind of a
(16:12):
business analysis for both ofthose.
SPEAKER_01 (16:15):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (16:17):
So so our close rate is 33%.
So let's just kind of overlaythat with your close rate.
You're closing three out ofseven, so you're actually
closing better than us.
SPEAKER_01 (16:28):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (16:31):
Now there are other hourly firms that are above 50%
that I know of.
SPEAKER_01 (16:35):
Of course, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
And so, you know, how qualified are they is their
data, right?
You know, like how qualified aretheir leads or their sets?
Maybe they're ultra qualifiedbecause they have a$500 consult
and they have they've alreadyasked them if they have$10,000
to pay the initial retainer.
So there's so many ways to slicethis up.
It's so hard to compare.
SPEAKER_02 (16:55):
Right.
And I Tom, what's your um what'syour gut on the reason or the
majority of reasons why peopledon't end up closing with you?
SPEAKER_01 (17:08):
Um that's a great question.
I I don't know that I have ananswer to that.
Um yeah, I don't I really don'tknow.
SPEAKER_00 (17:20):
Um also, Tom, around 30% of our sets that come see us
never go to court.
Meaning they never have a case.
Never their case never maturesinto a legal matter.
They just had, you know, theyhad a rough time in their
marriage, they want to get someadvice, um, you know, a whole
bunch of reasons why they wouldcome in and talk to us.
So you back that out, all of asudden our close rate for people
(17:42):
that actually litigateskyrockets right into the 60s,
high 60s.
SPEAKER_01 (17:46):
So um Yeah, and I and I think that that's that's
probably a a good answer toTyler's question.
You know, given that I do offerfree consults, I think I do get
a lot of people that are justcoming in looking for some
advice.
Maybe, you know, maybe they'rethinking, thinking about a
divorce, but they're not reallysure if they want to do it yet.
(18:06):
Um I don't know.
I I assume there's somepercentage that just decides to
go with another firm, uh, but II don't know what that
percentage is.
Um but yeah, there theredefinitely is a fair amount of
people.
And and I could I can tellpretty quickly whether someone
is serious about wanting to, youknow, move forward with the case
or they've already been served,you know, in which case they
(18:26):
have no choice.
Um you know, versus someonewho's just kind of feeling
things out, something like that.
Um and you know, I two things Iwould I would love to do, which
we've talked about before, is Imean one going to paid consults,
but there there are just thereare two uh major firms in my
area that I know offer freeconsults.
(18:47):
And they're they are like themajor players.
It's two firms that probablymake up like a third of the
attorneys in my area.
Um, you know, and they offerfree consults.
So that's hard to hard tocompete against to to moving to
paid consults.
Um and then the other one isfixed fee, which you know, we've
talked about it in New Yorkcomes with some is a little bit
more difficult based on ourrules of professional conduct.
(19:09):
Um, but I think you know thepaid consult one is is
definitely tricky.
SPEAKER_02 (19:14):
Yeah, I think we should do a whole uh podcast on
that, Jeff, on paid versus Ohyeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:19):
I've been thinking about that since a few minutes
ago when that came up.
That's that'd be a greatpodcast.
SPEAKER_02 (19:23):
Yeah, a lot of psychological benefits to
getting people to commit early.
And though it may change yourcall to consult rate, my guess
is it will increase your closerate.
SPEAKER_00 (19:35):
Yep, yeah, I agree.
We've got a lot of data on bothboth sides of that equation.
So we could actually puttogether a really good
side-by-side comparison of thebehavioral differences.
SPEAKER_01 (19:46):
Yeah.
And then, yeah, another factoris right.
I just got this answeringservice, answering legal.
They're a very well-knowncompany.
I'm sure you've heard of them.
Um, so that's who's answering myphone now.
They're booking consults.
And I'm sure they'll be great atbooking free consults, but
because again, that's that's notdifficult.
That person's already found meand reached out to me.
But would they be great atbooking paid consults?
(20:08):
Probably not, right?
That's I would probably wantsomeone in-house doing that.
SPEAKER_02 (20:12):
Well, I think this is back to the data point.
And Tom, I want to commend youon your use and leverage of
data.
And I think any of our listenerswho are not tracking at least
calls, consult rate, close rate,this is an easy thing that can
be done that will definitelyinform your firm and able to
improve it.
(20:32):
Um, but it'd be also Tominteresting to see, okay, from
call to consult rate, how's theanswering service doing versus
if you answered every call?
SPEAKER_01 (20:43):
Right.
Yeah, I don't have that.
It's only been two weeks, so Idon't have that data yet.
Um and it was it was great timebecause I was on I was on trial
and then immediately went onvacation.
So getting that answeringservice was that, you know, for
the two weeks they would havebeen amazing because my
answering rate would have beenhorrendous, um, particularly
while I was on trial.
And then one of oh yeah, so oneother thing I was gonna say for
(21:04):
my just in terms of the numberof calls I'm getting, I base
that number again.
I I'm I am very poor at trackingevery call that I get.
Um, and then you know, markinghow many are just garbage calls,
ad calls, uh, you know,telemarketers, stuff like that.
But I I do get the Googleanalytic reports every month,
and I will say uh March, whichwas from March, which was the I
(21:28):
believe you guys came on, I umretained Rocket Clicks, I guess
that's a better word to use, uh,in February 15th.
I guess that's when we startedworking together.
Um and so up till now, so we'rewe're coming up right on on six
months of that.
And I'll say, so I looked at myMarch call volume compared to
July.
So a four only a four-monthdifference there, right?
(21:50):
April, May, June.
Yeah.
And I had 17 calls in March, andI had 26 in July.
So things are, and that's allorganic, right?
Haven't run any ads.
So things are starting todefinitely starting to pick up.
Again, that is that is allMassapiqua.
Um, that's uh you know, allstill my Nassau County office.
So I think if I could get asecond office similar to this
(22:13):
location, and I and I have Ihave some ideas in mind of
actually I have one locationthat you know, if I were to pull
the Melville office and openanother office in Suffolk
County, um, I do have a locationin mind that I think would would
crush it, would be just as goodas Mass Pekua.
Um that plus plus starting torun some ads, I think, I think
I'd see a pretty strong fall.
SPEAKER_00 (22:33):
Tom, you you're kind of hard on yourself here.
The fact that you track leads,consults, and hires put you, I'm
not exaggerating, you're above80% of the family law firms out
there.
At least.
SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
So cool.
All right.
So this, I guess maybe now anydid you have anything else on
the waterfall?
I would love to talk about theGoogle.
SPEAKER_00 (22:52):
Any other questions you have there?
And then I'll pass it over toTyler and talk about your LSAs.
SPEAKER_01 (22:57):
Yeah, that was that was really helpful.
Again, it is, like you said,kind of a bit comparing apples
to oranges, especially based onyou know paid consults and the
fact that you do fixed fee.
But so yeah, as expected, youknow, you're gonna, I'm probably
gonna have a um, what do youcall it?
Higher I'm gonna get more higherpercentage of consults out of
(23:18):
calls because they're free.
Uh, but you're probably going tohave a higher closing rate after
those consults.
Um, and that's that's prettymuch what I was expecting.
Um so yeah, hopefully I'll I'llget more data over the next few
months.
Hopefully that call volume justcontinues to pick up um you know
in September and October.
And yeah, that plus running someads and and potentially another
(23:38):
office will hopefully startseeing things really really
start uh picking up.
So yeah, Google Ads, what what Iam and again, we this will be
again probably another apples toorange comparison because we are
comparing uh you know Wisconsinto the uh New York City suburb.
Um but I'm curious, I could Ithink so.
(24:00):
Maybe the cost might not be thesame, right?
What is what is an an averageLSA?
I guess we'll just use the termLSA, right?
Because that's probably what Iwould run um rather than a PPC
campaign or something like that.
Um so what what like ROI do youexpect to see on an LSA
campaign?
And Jeff, do you have thesterling LSA?
SPEAKER_00 (24:21):
I don't have the sterling, no, I don't have that.
SPEAKER_01 (24:24):
And so my it's kind of it's almost to me like trying
to work the waterfall backwards,right?
Because if I I'm saying, let'ssay how many clients do I want
to sign per month?
And I think I would, you know,if I'm trying to traditionally
that number has been about four,that's where I would be
comfortable.
If I'm trying to hire someone, Iwant to get that number up to
six, right?
(24:45):
So let's say I want to sign sixclients per month.
Now that I have this data, youknow, the waterfall data kind of
work backwards.
All right, how manyconsultations do I need?
Right.
So if if I'm finding that sevenconsults turned into three
leads, uh three clients, I mean,if I want three clients, then I
would need 14 consults.
How many of those, in order toget 14 consults, how many leads
(25:06):
do I need?
And if I want that number ofleads, how many calls do I need
to get?
SPEAKER_02 (25:10):
Yep.
You are thinking about that inthe absolute correct way, right?
The thing to remember is that asyou turn on ads, your call
volume will absolutely increase.
The percentage of qualifiedleads will probably decrease at
the beginning, would be myguess.
SPEAKER_01 (25:27):
The percentage will decrease, right?
Not the number.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:30):
Not the number, the percentage of qualified leads
will decrease, but the numberwill increase.
So we did a some quick math foryou.
And knowing, okay, we want toget 36 more leads for you, we
believe that if you spent$5,000at a cost per lead of$140 per
lead, you would generate 36 moreleads uh with that additional$5K
(25:53):
in budget based on okay.
SPEAKER_01 (25:56):
So 36 more leads using my numbers.
SPEAKER_02 (26:00):
And if you assumed a 15% close rate of those 36,
that'd be five additionalclients.
Is that where is that what mynumber said?
SPEAKER_01 (26:08):
Five 15%?
SPEAKER_02 (26:09):
That is what I'm assuming your close rate would
be.
SPEAKER_01 (26:12):
Okay.
Oh, because you're okay, becauseyou're saying that the leads
will drop.
That's right.
Um, okay, so that would get meto five a month.
So you're thinking 36 leads permonth turns into five signed
clients per month.
SPEAKER_02 (26:27):
Correct.
SPEAKER_01 (26:27):
Okay.
I'm leveraging a platform likeLSA.
And how did you how did you comeup with the 5,000 number?
SPEAKER_02 (26:34):
Uh so we looked at two different budget options.
One was 5,000 and the other onewas 10,000.
Um, if you wanted to spend the10,000 with the same close rate
of 15%, there would actually be71 leads um and potentially 11
new clients.
SPEAKER_01 (26:49):
Okay.
And so let's say that is inthat's in addition to everything
to everything I'm already doing,right?
So if I'm already getting two orthree per month, uh, so then I
really, you know, I'd be happy,you know, getting that same
number out of the ads, right?
So if if I change that fivesigned clients per month from
(27:11):
the ad campaign, reduced it intothree, realistically, it could
be like 3,000 a month.
SPEAKER_02 (27:16):
Correct.
SPEAKER_01 (27:17):
Okay, interesting.
SPEAKER_02 (27:19):
Yep, there's a lot, there's a there's a ramp up law,
and then there's a law ofdiminishing returns as you think
about uh leveraging ads in uh inand around your law firm
location.
There's also the realizationthat other people are doing the
exact same thing you're doing.
So there's competition in thespace, the cost per lead is
going to fluctuate based on thenumber of competitors in the
space.
And so that's why we always pushour clients to focus on local
(27:42):
visibility specifically in themaps and organic first, and then
leverage ads to uh essentiallyput gas on the fire.
SPEAKER_01 (27:52):
So here's a question for you that you haven't prepped
for, but I'm sure you know theanswer off the top of your head
because this is what you do.
How do Google ads, how do Icompare with somebody else,
right?
So let's say another majorplayer in my area, um, right?
Let's say we both have fivestars, but mine is based on 50
(28:13):
reviews, and this person's isbased on 500 reviews.
Uh so how would how do I competewith that person in the Google
ad space?
Is it all money based?
So like how let's say we'reboth, you know, we're both
running ads in Massapua.
Um, but hit my office is inMassapiqua and his is not.
(28:33):
Let's say his is 15, 20 minutesaway.
Does that give me an advantagein in the LSAs?
Like where my office location,what are the major factors that
go into that?
SPEAKER_02 (28:43):
Yeah, is it just name, address, uh, phone number.
So consistency of informationacross the web as it relates to
where your information is islisted, not only on your
website, but on directories andfine law and super lawyer and
all those things.
Um, number of reviews, and thenbudget.
Those would be like the threemajor categories.
(29:04):
Obviously, there's a lot moregoing on within the algorithm,
but if everything was equal andyou were in uh MassPua and the
search took place in MassPiqua,and the search was divorce
attorney near me or divorceattorney in Mass Pequa, uh, then
you would have a higher chanceof ranking above a competitor
(29:24):
outside of that space ifeverything else remained equal.
SPEAKER_01 (29:28):
Okay.
Yeah, because I I know again ofone firm that's spending over
100 grand a month in Google Ads.
I know that for a fact.
Uh obviously I'm nowhere nearbeing able to compete with that.
Um, so that's good, just knowingthat.
It's doing everything else.
His office is 20 minutes away,right?
Then yeah, that at least givesme some edge there.
SPEAKER_02 (29:50):
And then everything else comes into the equation,
right?
Are you answering the call ontime?
Are you empathetic and can youhear the, you know, can you have
good bed.
manner with the potentialclient?
Can you book the console?
Can the console go, you know, soall there's so many factors that
go into this, but it's from avisibility standpoint, being
able to leverage ads, whetherit's search or LSA, is gonna is
(30:14):
going to allow you to increaseyour visibility.
SPEAKER_01 (30:17):
Gotcha.
And if what what type of ROI doyou expect on a Google ad?
So if you're running, let's sayI'm running an ad campaign of
5,000 a month, do you know atyour firm, obviously this is
going to be specific to mynumbers, do you see like a three
times return on that, a fivetimes return on that, a two
(30:37):
times return on that?
What like what do you expect outof that?
SPEAKER_02 (30:40):
Well I think it depends on the mission, right?
If you're leveraging Google adsor ads in general as a uh cherry
on top as I just need more leadsto fill the capacity I have,
then I'm gonna have a differentperspective on what my return
needs to be on that because Ialready have the attorneys,
right?
I already have the capacity.
(31:00):
I just need to fill it up.
So even if it's breakeven or abit above breakeven, I'm still
winning because I'm filling thecapacity and and and uh
offsetting the expense that I'vehad.
If I'm sitting in your shoes,I'm saying well I'm only gonna
do ads if it's gonna be hyperprofitable because I have a
limited amount of capacity.
SPEAKER_01 (31:20):
Yeah.
So yeah so I guess I'm imaginingthe scenario where I were to
hire someone I don't know afterlike two, three months from now
and I say, all right now I havethis attorney I'm not quite
getting the amount of leads Ineed from organic to get this or
turn at least at the start tomake this attorney profitable
you know I need to crank on theads.
(31:41):
Then it's then it comes thequestion of risk.
SPEAKER_02 (31:43):
Right?
If it were me I want to fillthat attorney up and pay for
that salary as fast as I can andI'm willing to do so at a
break-even rate but then overtime I expect that to become
more profitable.
SPEAKER_01 (31:55):
Yeah would you ever recommend again your answer
could be this a topic foranother day which is totally
fine someone to operate at aloss for a short time period if
they if there's a goodopportunity for them.
SPEAKER_02 (32:09):
Again risk profile right I know Jeff Jeff and I are
both kind of hypervisionariesbig risk takers are willing to
to see a solution take shape andand definitely willing to take
that risk but you know that's toeach their own on on how far
into the pool they want to wade.
SPEAKER_00 (32:28):
Yeah I feel constrained because I am like
that I'm a big risk taker butstamp kids at home yeah do you
have any perspective on that andkind of when when you were
starting Sterling well we'vewe've yeah we've gone negative
before and it's no fun and youreally can't do that in a direct
response type of strategy whichis kind of where you're at
almost right now in terms of youspend you want to get paid
(32:50):
you're not trying to brand withthat um I can give you
directional answers to yourprevious question on LSA return
what you're looking at.
I don't have that data in frontof me I know we have it on your
team somewhere uh Tyler but withrespect to what we look at is we
want our sales and our marketingcosts or our marketing and our
sales team all combined under17% that's what we target and we
(33:15):
are we're around 15 right now soum 15% now there's also blended
in there just return clientsthat we're not paying for to get
back.
There's just name recognitionand blended into that we've had
it as high as in the 30s beforein our earlier days where we
were just trying to spend andget growth and cover our costs
and that sort of thing.
(33:35):
So you know I wouldn't expectyour on your situation to be
below where we're at as a moremature 11 year old firm.
SPEAKER_01 (33:44):
So that just helps you get a sense for you know my
maybe where you can be right andfor the record I I am I would be
completely fine with a with abreak even temporarily because I
do have and when I say breakeven I mean I don't even have to
pay myself a salary right if Ican hire an associate again
(34:05):
probably a topic for another daybut if I can hire an associate
that can cover their salary plusyou know my marketing expenses
that's that's all I need for nowjust knowing that it would it
would grow from there.
SPEAKER_02 (34:17):
Right because you're investing in growth and that's
your mindset.
And I think that's reallyimportant to anyone listening to
this they may not be in thatsame position right they may be
in a this is my only job and Ineed this to survive and put
food on the table they're gonnamake different decisions and and
I would recommend they makedifferent decisions.
Yeah of course of course okayall right a lot to think about
(34:38):
yeah maybe let's in terms ofnext month let's kind of come
back Tyler with some ideas forTom on incremental FAs or funded
agreements what what would thatlook like as he's looking at
maybe adding another associatewhat can he what can he spend to
get those incremental abovewhere he's at now or what do you
mean by that well I now you'reyou're you're spending 3500 to
(35:01):
5000 a month and you're gettingthree hires out of that every
month right so what would whatwould that look like to move
that to seven what would fourincremental funded agreements
how much more do you have tospend to get to the seven if you
wanted that I'm just pickingnumbers up here I don't know
what what you were looking forbut it's probably going to be in
the LSAs or the page search Idid yeah I think that'd be a
(35:23):
good episode Tom as we reallyjust kind of dive into that
topic of like okay I'm I I'vegrown to where I am I'm looking
to add capacity in the form ofan associate.
What should I be thinking aboutas it relates to making this
hire
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.