Jean Tren-Hwa Perkins was born unwanted during the 1931 Yangtze River Flood, adopted by medical missionaries, brought to the US for a few years, then trapped in Communist China. She was neither American nor Chinese "enough," yearning for acceptance and home her whole life. Her memoir, finished by her son, is an eyewitness account of Chinese history and her own harrowing story.
Richard Hsung's life has spanned two continents and cultures. His mother survived turbulent times in China, living through the start of Communism, and being separated from her American adoptive parents.
She asked Richard if he would tell her story, and she passed her notes and writings on to him. It took much longer than he thought it would and it changed him.
Richard Perkins Hsung promised his mother he would complete her memoir. It took him more than ten years. He meticulously compiled and edited her writings, adding family photographs and historical details to create the 3-volume Spring Flower, spanning the 83 years of her life (1931–2014):
Spring Flower Book 1: A Tale of Two Rivers
Spring Flower Book 2: Facing the Red Storm
Spring Flower Book 3: Torn Between Shifting Worlds
The books have 5-star reviews on Amazon, and are the result of years of work by Chemistry Professor-turned-author Richard Hsung.
At this time in history, his mother's story reminds us of the human costs of the decisions made by the world's government powers, and the painful decisions some people are forced to make.
Find out more about Richard and the books on:
https://richardperkinshsung.com/
Reach him on social media: @RichardPHsung
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Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:20):
Foreign. Hello and welcome to the storied human
(00:40):
today. My guest is RichardPerkins. Sung. He was born in
China in 1966 and was one of thefirst teens to leave China
legally under Mao's CulturalRevolution. He earned a PhD in
chemistry from the University ofChicago and became a professor
at the University of MinnesotaTwin Cities and the University
of Wisconsin Madison, retiringin 2022 he spent 10 years
(01:04):
editing and completing springflower by his mother, Jean
trenwa Perkins. MD, the threevolume memoir chronicles her
life as an adopted child ofAmerican medical missionaries, a
survivor of China's brutalcommunist regime, an
ophthalmologist, an immigrantand a mother sung lives in
(01:26):
Madison, Wisconsin with hiswife, where keeping squirrels
from digging up his backyard hasbecome a daily scientific
obsession, and I'm sure we canrelate to that one. I can't wait
to unpack your story and hearmore about it. Welcome, Richard.
Thank you so much, Lynne, forhaving me on your show. It's
(01:47):
so good to have you.
So there's so much to talkabout.
How old were you when you wereallowed to leave China legally?
So I was 14, and then I turned15 shortly after we arrived in
the States. Yeah, that will be1980s so young,
(02:11):
and that must have been, like,ridiculous,
like, such a change, right? Iknow I, I often thought I was a
grown up at the time, and thennow that they look back on I was
definitely just a kid, or itwas, it was age where a person
understands pretty mucheverything, but also, at the
(02:32):
same time, understands next tonothing. And I was right at it.
Yeah,it's so true. It's like you're
smart by then, right? But youhave no experience,
yeah, you, you, you have, youhave a good sense of
whereabouts, but then you try tograpple with what, why and how
(02:55):
and where, yeah, whatwas that like for you? I mean,
it's such a change. It's such ahuge change from one culture to
another,yeah. So it was a it was a storm
that blinded me, and I was notprepared for any of that. And of
course, the leaving China andcoming to the states completely
(03:19):
changed the changed my life, andchanged the trajectory, or a
path, on my life. Andessentially I had to start from
ground zero because I didn'tknow a word of English at the
time, even though my motherspoke English as if English was
her first language, right? So,wow, that's helpful anyway,
(03:40):
right? So did you live with yourcompletely, yeah, so you, did
you live with your grandmotherhere?
So by the time we by the time mymother returned home to America
and brought me in 1980 herparents, or my American
grandparents, had long passedaway. One passed away in 1958
(04:03):
and my American grandmotherpassed away in 1961 or 62 I
forgot 63 maybe, and so. But wehave a lot of American relatives
and for for responsible forgetting us out of China, right?
So thank God for that. I So, didyou find it? I mean, you
(04:25):
obviously very academicallyoriented, and you did well in
school. Did that help? I mean,did you did you find a refuge in
school and you learned English?
Yeah, so it was bizarre, right?
And I guess I was in junior highHong I was uprooted from my
(04:45):
classroom, and most of myclassmates in China had no idea
where I went. I just disappearedmyself and on this Pan Am flight
in route to JFK. So. In 1980 andwhile on the plane, my mother
was trying to give me a crashcourse in English and also her
life. And so by the time I gotto New York, and we spent some
(05:10):
time in New York, and then wesettled down in Boston to where
she was a research fellow at theMass General Hospital. So I was
quickly enrolled in this woman,actually more prestigious high
school called MiddletownAcademy, Massachusetts, right?
It was bizarre that how they tryto figure out where I should be.
(05:31):
So I was sitting at one pointwith ninth grader, even though I
supposed to be a 10th grader, Iguess. And then pretty soon I
was in third grade English classtrying to figure things out.
Yeah, so I, before I left China,I I was becoming pretty good at
writing. I love the history, andI wanted to be a journalist. And
(05:53):
of course, coming to Americaeffectively ended that. And I I
couldn't, I couldn't write anysentences, you know, properly at
the time. And so pretty soon Ifigured out, you know, math is
international language scienceis yes. So I was sort of forced
into that track because easierto deal with. And so eventually
(06:16):
I took a took a path, took acareer in chemistry was also
because, well, you know, it waseasier to understand, and so I'm
very grateful to have a careerlike that for about almost 30
years teaching chemistry,teaching, teaching and
researching chemistry, but itwas not what I had in mind 40
years ago. 50 years ago, yeah,I think that's pretty amazing,
(06:40):
that you could make that shift,and that you were that good in
chemistry. I mean, in math, alot of us couldn't, right? I
mean, really, I'm a writer, andI don't know if I could become a
chemistry professor, excuse me,so that's amazing right there,
that you have those talents andthat you can make that shift.
And I think that, I think a lotof times, education can save us.
(07:02):
It really can. It can give us arefuge and and I think, you
know, we're lucky to have peoplethat are able to do what you can
do. So tell me how much of yourmother's story did you know then
when you were a very young man?
Yeah. So after we arrived,settled down in Boston, and
(07:24):
then, I guess within the firstfew years, she started to
contemplate about writing,writing her her memoir for her,
for the stories of her life,down on paper. And she had a lot
of encouragement, ranging fromour American relatives and so
on. This is amazing story. Yougotta, you gotta write a write a
(07:46):
book about it to a lot of peoplethat just from her work, working
place and so on. And then so sheinherited boxes of letters her
mother had written back in the1940s and 40s. And then she had,
my mother herself, had thisincredible photographic memory
of her childhood also. And thenso it's and then also her, my
(08:11):
American grandmother was anamateur photographer, and took
many 1000s of photos of China.
And so she had all thosematerials, and she started to to
organize them. And then I I hadnothing better to do, so I was
helping her at the time. Andthen through that process, I
started to learn more about whathow she was adopted by American
(08:32):
medical missionaries, and howshe spent some time in the
States during the war or two,and how she was trapped in China
for 30 years prior, oh my gosh,states and bronia over also,
yeah, so that was, that was myfirst, I guess, lessons of her
Life. Yeah, yeah.
(08:54):
30 years, my God, yes.
19/5 1950 1950 to 1980she wasn't allowed to leave.
Yeah, there was no way. A lot ofpeople actually tried. And many,
many while trying, right? Heattempted to, but she was talked
(09:16):
about out of it by my father,because of Swiss, right?
So. And what did your father do?
So, my fatherwas a professor agriculture, I
guess, agronomist, and hespecialized in Rice Research,
and he was among the earliestgeneration in the 1950s and
(09:36):
understood how to do falsebreeding hybrids and actually
genetically modify the rice sothat it will have more it will
be bigger, fuller and morenutrition, I guess all that
stuff, wow. I mean, it'scommercial too. But point is
that he was, he was veryambitious. He wanted to solve a
(09:57):
world of hunger for. Album, atleast famine was an issue in
China. So yes, and and he becamea world renowned agronomist by
by 1980s and 1990s so, ofcourse, yeah. So that was pretty
much his, his life and career. Isaw very little of him, of
(10:19):
course, by the time I, I knew I,I began to get to know him. I
was on a Pan Am Flight, right?
So, oh, I didn't really havemuch of a relationship, unlike
my mother and I, yeah,yeah, sometimes that happens,
but still, you must have feltlike you had big shoes to fill,
right?
(10:42):
Yes, especially at my mother's.
I know my father. My father waswas quite reasonable. Whomever
he and I had an opportunities tointeract, he didn't have that
high of expectations, and but mymother did. My mother had helped
me to some of the highest, mostunreasonable expectations,
especially during our time inthe States, I guess, yeah, I was
(11:05):
to fulfill her dreams, I guesswas that, did you feel like, Did
that feel natural, or did thatfeel like a little bit of
pressure?
I still feel the pressure.
Over the years, I've been tryingto shed this burden brick by
(11:26):
brick, but I still got plenty ofbricks in this bag. I'm still on
my shoulder, right? So, yeah, Ithink, I think some somehow,
writing, completing her memoir,has helped. It was a very good
exercise for me and and in someways, I'm hoping that she's up
(11:46):
there somewhere, right? I'mhoping she she will be proud of
me, and I'm sureshe is. So tell us, when did you
when did it occur to you thatyou could finish this, and when?
How much did she have done whenshe passed away.
So she spent about 12 years fromthe early 1980s to about mid
(12:07):
1990s or early 1990s and then bythe time she passed away, my
father handed me three boxes ofher manuscripts and notes, and
it was over 1000 pages. And justlots of stuff to go through. And
that would be 2014 spring, or2014 and that was just about
(12:34):
pretty much when I thought, whenI began the process. And of
course, at the time, I thought Icould continue my career and
doing this at the same time. Andwithin a few years, it became
impossible to do both. I had tostart consider maybe quitting my
career just to finish hermemoir. So it took me about 10
(12:54):
years, just little south of 10years. Yeah,
well, it just sounds like somuch of it in the beginning was
like being an archivist, right?
That that takes so much timeorganizing and, you know,
comprehending what you have andcategorizing. And I don't think
people understand that kind ofwork takes such a long time.
(13:16):
Yeah, I love the work archive.
And then, and that was prettymuch her style of writing, which
was very annoying, actually, andI follow that style. She it was,
it's much less a memoir. It wasmore archive or a Chronicles, or
chronicles of history,chronicles of our life, very
detailed. And so I had to readthrough all of that, which was
(13:36):
good, because I needed to find avoice before I started writing,
writing and also completing it.
And so, yeah, 1000s of pages tothumb through. In some ways, had
a good start, but there were somany gaps I had to fill. So I
had to interview a lot ofpeople, and I interviewed my
(13:58):
father was my father was one ofthem, and I had to ask many for
many stories in at least from1950s and 1960s prior to I was
born, andyou had your father like
sometimes, I think that's if youwait too long to tell a story.
Everyone's gone, right? It'sjust really good. You had your
dad,and sadly, he was gone shortly
after he was telling about that.
(14:23):
So he passed away in 2015 sothey, they passed away about
nine months apart, or 10 monthsapart. Sorry. Headline. Oh,
thank you. But I, he gave meenough headlines, and then I
could interview a lot of I wentback to China. I made many trips
to China interview a lot ofpeople there just to fill in the
gaps and understand the historybetter, I guess. So, yeah, yeah.
(14:46):
So it was, it was a lot of workand plenty of moments I, I
regretted,Richard. It's a killer
commitment, right? And like.
Sometimes we make thesecommitments in the best of frame
of mind, and then we're like inthe middle of it, and we say,
What did I get myself into? ButI just feel throughout your
(15:09):
story that there was thisenduring connection to your
mother, and this, you know,obligation in the most loving
way, like you were compelled tofinish for her.
Yes, I think so. It was, it wasa promise I made to her, but
(15:31):
although not casually, but ofcourse, at the time when I
promised her, I had no idea whatthis was about. So, so yeah, so
she was dying in nursing homefrom dementia. So, so I was
wondering why she was justhanging on and not just go
right. And then so I saw, howabout, I know you probably just
(15:54):
wonder, who's ever going tofinish your memoir? And if, if
anyone, it will be me, right?
Nobody else will be able to dothis, even my father, before he
died, he said, You know, Ishould try. I try to write this
more in Chinese, and I couldn'tdo it after a couple months. So
then, you know, so it will be upto me. And so I did that. I
(16:16):
thought, yeah, I'll just dothat. You know, on the weekends
and nights have fun,that was very naive, yeah, well,
these things do tend to takeover our lives. I mean, she has
such a, you know, what a hugestory, and there's so much
historical backdrop. So whydon't you just tell me briefly,
I'm wondering, how did she getstuck in China? Like, how did
(16:39):
that happen?
Yes, so I will start from there.
Maybe I'll backtrack a littlebit. So that will be 19 that'll
be January 1951 really, I shouldJanuary 119. 51 her parents were
driven out of China overnight.
Within three days, they wereshipped to Canton, and then
(17:00):
across the harbor went to wentto Hong Kong, and because Korean
conflict was reaching its peak,and and that was a proxy war
between America and China onKorean peninsula, and even
though it involves 17 Othercountries, but the point it was
(17:21):
mainly China Americans.
Yeah, so, right? Korean War onKorean peninsula. And so my
mother at the time, when herAmerican parents were on a train
en route to Canton, Hong Kong.
My mother was a freshman in anEnglish speaking College in a
(17:44):
city pretty close to Shanghai,Conan Kim, but 300 miles away
from her parents, so shecouldn't make it. And even she
made that in now that I knew, Iknow her story. She wouldn't
have the proper paperwork, likea passport at the time to leave
(18:05):
the country. Her parents did,right? They were Americans, and
so, yeah, so then she wastrapped. And then, you know, at
the time we thought they thoughtthat. She thought that would
just be a short term, right? Acouple years later, the war will
end, and she will be reunitedwith her parents, but maybe a
blink of eyes three decades andso why was she back in China all
(18:30):
when she had spent three yearsliving in Yonkers, New York
during the war? That's becauseher parents were just totally
dedicated, you know, medicalmissionaries when the when world
war two ended, or at least forthe VE Day, when the European
(18:52):
Theater ended in 1945 in May of1945 her parents uprooted her
from her classroom in Yonkers,New York, and she found herself
on a battleship in route toIndia and and so, make a long
story short, 1946 say they wentback to China, and her parents
(19:14):
just want to continue theirmedical missions and so, but
they didn't know China was goingto endure through a three year
period of civil war betweencommunist armies and and at the
time the the government iscalled National Republic,
nationalist. And so they fought,fought each other for three
years, and the communist thenwon the war, swept through,
(19:35):
through South and next thing youknow, her parents were thinking
about leaving China. However,communists at the time in 1949
were they were quite reasonable.
Of course. They needed thephysicians, right? They needed
the competent doctors andhospitals. So they allowed my
(19:58):
grandparents to keep on.
Operating the hospital to ahospital remained open. But a
year later, then was Koreanconflict, and that was a no no.
So anti American fervent was alltime high, and and you are and
you won't be safe as Americanliving in China. So so they
were, they were given thepaperwork and driven out of
(20:19):
China overnight. And so my mymother was stuck, yeah,
and she wasn't allowed to gowith them,
yeah, so she couldn't make it.
By the time she made it back, itwas spring of 1951 oh my gosh.
And these are, just want to makesure we understand, these are
medical missionaries that wereAmerican that had adopted your
(20:42):
mom? Yep, right, yes,a little bit. So yeah, my
grandfather, Americangrandfather, was born and raised
in Hartford, Connecticut andfrom a very blue blooded New
England family. Right, wealthybeyond belief, and powerful too,
skipping through the details,somehow, he was looking for a
(21:03):
meaning of life and decided,after he got his MD, decided to
become a missionary in Asia. Hechose China, and along with his
wife, they built a hospital inthe small fishing village on the
banks of Yangtze River, one ofthe longest river in Asia or in
China. What do you mean in thisworld? And my mother was born
(21:24):
directly across on the northernbanks. And then few months
later, since it will be 1931,couple months later, the river
flooded, became one of the worstnatural disasters in 20th
century, killing upwards of 4million people. But somehow, my
(21:45):
mother wasn't one of those 4million people, and she
miraculous lived because herbiological mother was kind
enough that didn't throw her onthe roadside, let her die,
because girls were not valued inChina at the time, but her
biological mother was lookingfor a home for her and and they
found this medical missionarycouple. And then, what a story.
(22:08):
My God, grandparents adopted mymom. My mother was one year old
at the time. What abeautiful story. You know, I
have a friend who is Korean, andshe was found in, literally, in
a garbage can, and taken to anorphanage. And a wonderful woman
who had done a lot of Koreanadoptions, arranged for her
(22:32):
adoption and then for herbrothers. And she's had a
wonderful life, and she's goneback to Korea, but it is such a
sad part of the story, the waythe babies were were handled,
and very sad culture.
High School with this woman.
She's my friend. I worked withher in high school. I know her
(22:53):
well, and I didn't know thisstory until you know we're all
older now and we're connected onFacebook. I didn't know this
story until the last 10 years,and it broke my heart. It broke
my heart to think of mybeautiful friend that that's how
she started her life. But sheprefers to look at it as
positive as these beautifulangels who found her and and
(23:16):
took care of her, and she had avery beautiful trip back to
Korea. So there is this, thisunification, this, you know,
getting back with your familyand understanding that they all
took care of you. They're all,they all care about you. And
she's connected, yeah, mymother,
my mother would agree. Wouldagree with her, totally,
(23:39):
completely, yeah.
But what a way to start yourlife. My god,
yes. But you know, starting fromthat point, she she had the
fortune of a meeting with many,many extraordinary human beings,
(24:01):
and wonderful human beings, orangel in disguise, if you will,
and helped her get through someof the worst time. Particularly,
I'm not just even talking aboutmy grandparents, but just for 30
years in China. So that's a lotof time. Yes, get through those
tough times. Yeah, and,you know, you know, you can't
(24:21):
help but think about how we'reat the whim of a government and
what they decide to do, andwe're just trying to have lives.
People are just trying to livetheir lives
peacefully and right. And, youknow, it's just we don't we
were, yeah, and most of us, wedon't need much. We don't ask
(24:42):
much. We just asked to be beleft alone.
And in spite of all that, yourmother was,
you know, triumphant, she shegot educated, she got married,
she built a life, she raisedyou. It's kind of. Amazing.
It was, you know, she didn'tknow. So she was 19 years old
(25:04):
when her parents left China,tripping out of China. And she
was wondering, up to that point,she had a pretty charm, charm
the childhood, right? And sothen she was wondering how she
will survive. And thenimmediately after, so
immediately at the moment,Chinese government made a rule
that they needed they needphysicians, they need teachers.
(25:26):
So she was already a freshmansophomore in college, right? And
so they decided to turn allthese people into physicians or
her teachers, whether that'sright or wrong, my mother became
a beneficiary of that policy,right? And then they either
waive the tuitions for thisfirst generation of, I guess,
kids post communist regime andso, yeah. So then she, lo and
(25:51):
behold, became anophthalmologist, and then that
also helped her during some ofthe worst time in China.
Because, just like how communistgovernment allow my grandpa,
grandparents, allow some of theAmericans to stay, to keep the
Hospital Operational, becausethey they need physicians. They
(26:12):
need competent physicians, andthey need a hospital. And so my
doesn't matter how it didn'tmatter how they were persecuting
my father or my mother. Mymother actually got, got, got
off a bit easy, relativelyspeaking, because she was
allowed to work in the hospital.
Then they need to keep thehospital. So, right.
(26:33):
Yeah, ironic,but it is you wonder too. You
look back and realize all thesetwists and turns and how
fortunate some of them are, andthey didn't even seem on
purpose. They're just sort ofLucky accidents, in
a way. No, right, right. So didshe
keep in touch with her parentsthis whole time
(26:56):
she was able to? So there werepiles and piles of letters, and
she could sort them through bysaying that, actually, I
received them, these, I neverreceived them, right, because
they were all censored.
Oh my gosh, early 1950swhen communists just took over,
they censored all the letters,right? And then, so they were
(27:18):
able to correspond at least hereand there fleetingly for about
three or four years, until myAmerican grandparents decided,
if they can't go back tomainland China, they can go to
Taiwan and they can continue tohelp Chinese people. And that
sounded wonderful, but thatTaiwan was enemy of the state,
(27:41):
right? So by the time they wentto Taiwan, my mother didn't dare
to write anything to them, andwhatever they wrote never got
never got through, right? So, sothey lost touch with one another
around 1954 to 55 so, and then,yeah,
(28:03):
that's a sad part of the story.
Yeah? Well, it's, it's war,right? It's, yeah, it's good
for us to hear about the humanpart of, like I said, what, you
know, governments do what theydo, and then
human civilians, people like youand I, yeah, we're just
(28:28):
collateral damages, right? Soit's
important to remember that, thatthere's humans just trying to
make a go of their lives andjust to survive. So I'm assuming
she graduated and became anophthalmologist.
And when did she meet your dad?
So they met in college. They hadknown each other, actually when
(28:52):
they were even younger, butagain, World War two separated
them, right? So they gotrekindled, I guess, in in
college. And then I thinklooking back on even though they
would tell me it was true love,and I could tell that it was
probably a marriage ofconvenience, also, there's an
(29:13):
element of one, because mymother, my mother was my mother
was still a foreigner in her owncountry, even by the time we
came back, we came to theStates. But night back, back in
1950s my mother was Chinese, wasreally bad, and she's she spoke
(29:34):
with an accent. And I, when Igot older, I was always
wondering why all kind of funny,Lee, so it's like, what? So now
I'm not completely understand soto I think is was partially she
realized she needs to assimilateand blend in, right? So marrying
my father was the best way ofblending him. There was that
(29:57):
element, but maybe it was alsolove, right? So they. They were
married in 19 I could, I guessright around 1955 when she first
realized she couldn't respondwith her parents anymore. So
did she ever get to see herparents again?
They passed away, 1958 1963respectively. Hansel, yeah, see
(30:24):
that. That makes me sad, I know.
And I guess the last time shesaw them, she was 19 years old,
just hard to imagine. And itreminds me of what we take for
granted, right? Yeah,especially, you know. So there
were some analogies, I mean,similarities there, right? So I
(30:45):
came out, I didn't get to see Ihave my older sister, so I
didn't get to see my oldersister till 20 some years later,
let me get to see my father tillsometime in later 1980s and so,
about a decade or so. So, yeah,so it's like, I mean, I actually
to to look back on, I didn't, Inever wanted to come to the
(31:08):
States right, because I preferwho wouldn't right, who
wouldn't. Prefer just betogether with family. Why would
you want to be right? Butsometimes you do that because
you're in a dire situation youwant to run away from. You have
to do it right? I don't thinkpeople understand that who are
(31:29):
safe and never had to considersomething like that. It's really
important to remember sometimeswe have to leave right?
I mean, no, no humans will be inthe right mind. Will be you want
to be uprooted from theirhomeland and then try to go and
speak a different language,meeting different people,
comparing a foreign surrounding,right? They will much prefer to
(31:52):
stay where they're familiar withand speak their native language.
So I think that'sa really good point and
something important to remember,and especially for Americans
who, you know, I've traveled alittle bit, and I'm maybe not as
insulated as some. SomeAmericans are really insulated.
They haven't traveled much. It'sa big country. Maybe they live
in the middle of it. You know,it's hard to understand
(32:12):
sometimes, what it's like tochange cultures, to be forced
out of where you are. I mean,some people have been here.
Well, your grandfather was anexception, because he left, but
are your you know, your greatgrandfather, some people have
been here for hundreds of years.
You know, they just don't, can'tcomprehend making such a change.
(32:35):
And it's important to realizethat it's not the same
everywhere. And there arereasons why people have to go,
and it's drastic. I mean, thethings you're describing are so
drastic, the shifts ingovernment, yes, separation of
family.
I mean, you included, right? Butyou included your great, great
(32:56):
grandparents or your ancestorcame from somewhere, right?
Migrated from somewhere becausethey were free to fleeing
something, right, everybody, orthey were also M or they're also
looking for new opportunities,opportunities to
actually, yeah, I never talkabout this, but my family's been
here since the 1660s and theythey were fleeing religious
(33:20):
persecution. There you go. Thereyou go, right? What would drive
you to do that? I mean, I getit. There's strong reasons. And
we're all immigrants, except forpeople that were brought here as
slaves and Native Americans inAmerica, we are all immigrants,
precisely, yeah, totally. It'ssuch an important point
nowadays, and I'm so glad thatyou brought that part of the
(33:44):
story. So now that the book isdone, what does that feel like?
I can't even imagine.
Uh, well,I feel relieved. I guess that's,
that's, that's a minimum,minimum feeling, I guess,
minimum, minimally.
(34:07):
I I think I'm well to, to put itbluntly, it really changed me. I
think the point where, well,because What's so surprising
about that, well, I no longerlook at things the same way,
right? Anyway, for 30 someyears, including training, maybe
(34:29):
even longer than that, I justthought about one thing that
will be chemistry and later,teaching. Although teaching is
is a career. Word, worthy,worthy, worthy of pursuit. And
I'm, again, very grateful I hadthe opportunity, but I was very
tunnel visioned, right? I wasjust, I was just looking at,
(34:51):
what's my next research paperspublication, what's my next
student's lecture? And one ofthem different, their thesis,
and then. Writing this memoirmade me sort of look up and
reading, thinking, seeingthings, and so once I started
(35:13):
doing that, when I was in ourlibrary or looking at the
Internet, or sort of searchingon the internet, or reading what
my mother wrote or reading otherpeople's writings, and again,
learning, I suddenly realized Icould never go back to to the, I
mean, to teach chemistry thesame way, at least minimally, at
(35:35):
least and and there were momentsI even found myself standing in
front of class. I actually wantto tell them I don't want to
talk about this. I want to talkabout something else. But of
course, I know, I knew thatwould be wrong, because they
didn't sign up for a historyclass. You signed up for
chemistry class. So so then Iknew that was also a factor, or
(35:57):
in part, why I decided I needto, perhaps terminate my
chemistry teaching career. Soyeah, so I know I think I look
at things and think about thingsin a very different way, from
very different perspectives. SoI think
that's amazing that you one,that you, first of all, that you
(36:17):
finished your promise to yourmother, that is so beautiful.
And second that you expandedyour mind that way, like you
really, literally said, I'mgonna really learn, really
research, and so you expandedyour viewpoint and your mind,
and you're not the same. You'renot the same at all,
I know. So that was kind ofunexpected, because I thought,
(36:40):
okay, so it's a story about ahuman life, a person's life, and
so that person was born, thatperson lived, that person died,
right? So that would have beensort of the gist of it, but yet,
delving into, deeply into herlife, her stories, her stories
are unique, not because of her,but because of events,
(37:01):
historical events that she hadthe Fortran of of encountering
or unfortunate encounter, andbut are all the people that she
met, and all the people thatmade a difference in her life,
and that was rich so well,there's so many Wonderful
levels, right? Like there's thatback, that historical backdrop
that's fascinating, yes, untoitself, but then all those other
(37:25):
levels, people that came alongand helped her and her personal
growth, and her, her educationand her, her, the connections
that you made were reallyinteresting, probably things
that you probably neverconnected was there were, there
were there just some surprisesin there that you didn't know
about your mom.
(37:47):
Yeah, so we were talking aboutmy mom, and I was telling you
that even though I believe weloved each other deeply, but but
most of that probably was due tothe we were against the world,
so to speak, after we, we came,after I came to the States after
she, she called America home. Soshe will often say, after I
(38:12):
return home, right? So, so forthose initial years, you know,
so we were, we were very closeto one another, because I was
hanging on to her short tail sobut she was very strict, and she
was, of course, smart,brilliant. And again, she would
(38:35):
hold me to these loftyexpectations, right? I hated it,
right? And then she has a sortof one side of her persona that
she will show me, and just not avery loving readily to show her
love, right, very different sidethat she will show other people.
And but, you know, you know, andI thought she was also
(38:57):
courageous, brave, just thisperson I have to put on the
highest pedestal I know, I knowof but you know, writing this
memoir, or completing hermemoir, is like, oh my goodness,
she's human. She's just likerest of us, like me, made many
mistakes, and she was afraid.
Yeah, she cried, she struggled.
(39:23):
So it's so I, I, I enjoyed thatpart, because now I put a face
to this human being that I wasputting on some kind of pedestal
unnecessarily. Of course, ofcourse, I was a kid, but
we do that, and what a gift toget to know your mother in that
way?
(39:43):
Yes, right? I know. And also Iwouldn't want to give the book
away, but I could also, I knewthat she had deep friendship
with several people back in1960s to the point where
sometimes I wonder if my fatherwas my father. Other so, oh, no,
these are all things sort of bugout and notes she was unable to
(40:07):
finish, stories that she wasunable to finish. And, you know,
she sometimes she will have aphotograph stuck to a piece of
paper and with an arrow point toa face. Could be a guy, it could
be a could be a gal, and she's,she will say, I gotta talk about
this person. It's just like, Whothe heck is that person?
(40:28):
And that's allyou put things together, yes,
yeah, yeah. Now, whatabout your sister? Does she live
in America, or is she in China?
She's nowliving in Boston. She finally
liberated here in early 2000swith her son. So her son, at the
time, was about six years old.
And now, now it's a grown adult,young adult, I guess. And so my
(40:52):
sister suffers from a cerebralpalsy, and she was born early in
1960s I guess, precisely from1960 I keep forgetting her age.
She's about six or seven yearsolder than me. So and at the
time, they thought was polio,but it wasn't a virus, right? So
(41:12):
then they finally, by the timethey figure out was cerebral
palsy, and shoot, there was noway I'll try to help her or save
her, trying to mitigate her sucha situation. So she she has a
physical, physical handicap orphysical challenge in terms of
speech and walking and so on,but she managed to ultimately
(41:35):
finish college in 1980s andbecame a librarian for most part
of our life before retiring andcoming to come into immigrant
into the states. Yeah. So, likeI was saying earlier, after I
left the China, I didn't see herfor 20 some years.
I can't even imagine, but it'snice that she's, you know,
(41:56):
somewhat near, yeah, yeah.
That's completelyand how did you meet your wife?
Oh, that's interesting. And Imet her in, I guess, 1999 after,
shortly after, maybe a coupleyears after, I was divorced,
when I first wife. And my firstwife was a was was American,
(42:22):
actually born and raised inIndiana, and I actually we had a
very good relationship, which isvirtually parted our ways. And
then this woman, my currentwife, is from my actually was
born in China and was a graduatestudent at Tulane Medical
Hospital, medical school, andthen it was a mutual friend
(42:43):
between us, introduced us andyeah, so then the rest is great.
And how long have you beenmarried?
Officially, probably about 16 or17 years. We dated for a while,
even though we were in twodifferent locations, two
different cities.
(43:05):
So that worked out,that's right. So
I'm wondering if I had spent allthis time on my mother's book
and it was finally done, I mightnot know what to do with myself.
You were so invested and youwere so living that when you
were literally you gave up yourcareer and you were living that
(43:25):
book. Yeah, feel like you knowwho you are now, um,
no, is the short answer, and thelong winded answer is, I'm
trying to figure out who I am. Ilike what I was telling you
earlier, I was rambling away,and I'm trying to tell you that
forever changed right by by bymore, and I no longer look at
(43:50):
things differently and and I wasalso telling you earlier, before
I came to the States in 1980 Ihad always wanted to be a writer
of to become a journalist, ofCourse, writing in Chinese. And
at that time that was was on mymind. And of course, I was
blindsided by coming to America.
And so now I'm thinking, maybe Ican go back to become a writer
(44:10):
and but to write what I mean,the last thing I want to do is
write another memoir, right? SoI'm already burned out on that.
So this past year or so, Ibecome interested in just
writing short stories, like 1000word 8800 word short essays
about event, about story of mylife, in my life, or my from my
(44:35):
past. And I'm not trying towrite a memoir, but just
something memorable. And again,I was going to ask you earlier,
do you think you're going towrite? Because that doesn't go
away, that you know that pull,that first pull, when you're
young, to what you want to do.
And I think you havereflections. You have so many
(44:55):
reflections and so manyobservations to bring to you.
Uh,you know, you're a readership.
I totally, I completely agree.
Yep, I would think I want to dothat. I don't want to write
another albatross about my No,no, it's my life probably
nowhere near as interesting asmy mom's, but there'll be
(45:16):
stories, you know, andreflections like what you said.
Well, you have, youjust have this unique, you know,
like it or not, right? That'syour legacy, this unique,
bicultural, you know, awarenessof how history, history touches
us and changes us. And I wouldread that book. I think that's a
great way to go, is to shareyour reflections and your
(45:38):
thoughts. And those are storiesthat people need to hear. They
need to, you know, thethoughtful kind of, I don't know
what the word is. I'm losing mywords, like the thoughtful
rumination, almost on theintersection of these things
that you uniquely can speak to,and people want, they want to
learn, they want to understand.
(46:01):
And I think that would help alot. So I think,
Well, I think that's why thispast year or so, or 10 months or
so, here and there, I'm tryingnot to put pressure on myself,
but once, so one, one essay amonth, so to speak, just take my
time, have a first draft andlook at it, and then, and then,
(46:23):
you know someone by my Americanrelatives are their authors or
writers, and one of themactually encouraged me to
collect some of these shortstories and their essays, and so
maybe someday you can correlatethem into a book, and that will,
that will be a memoir, like No,not quite Right, like we say,
it's, it's a collection ofreflections and the
(46:44):
perspectives.
Yes, those are some of myfavorite kinds of writing. Yeah,
yes. I love those kind that kindof writing, because it really
makes you think and you have alot to bring to it. So is there
anything that we missed? Isthere anything you would like to
tell our readers that we mighthave not said any, any piece of
advice, or any, anything Ididn't get to
(47:06):
Don't, don't easily promise yourparents anything.
What a great lesson. Oh, my God.
And how can people get her book,your book? How can people get
that book?
You know, amazon.com, Barnes,noble, if you type in spring
flower and then rain flower, itwill pop up.
(47:27):
And is there a way to contactyou, that if people want to talk
to you or ask you questions, orYes, I finally built a website
for the book, okay, for thememoir? So it will be Richard
Perkins shown so my full namespelled out letter by letter,
and then.com and we'll have allthe information there. Yeah,
that'sgreat. I'll put it in the show
(47:48):
notes too, but some people don'tread the show notes, so it's
good to say it out loud. Well,Richard, I could talk to you for
another day. I think me too. Iappreciate so much that you that
you told us your story. It's abeautiful one. And I mean, I'm a
mom, and it just really moves mewhat you've done for your mom.
(48:10):
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for having me.
You
Foreign. Hello and welcome to the storied human
(00:40):
today. My guest is RichardPerkins. Sung. He was born in
China in 1966 and was one of thefirst teens to leave China
legally under Mao's CulturalRevolution. He earned a PhD in
chemistry from the University ofChicago and became a professor
at the University of MinnesotaTwin Cities and the University
of Wisconsin Madison, retiringin 2022 he spent 10 years
(01:04):
editing and completing springflower by his mother, Jean
trenwa Perkins. MD, the threevolume memoir chronicles her
life as an adopted child ofAmerican medical missionaries, a
survivor of China's brutalcommunist regime, an
ophthalmologist, an immigrantand a mother sung lives in
(01:26):
Madison, Wisconsin with hiswife, where keeping squirrels
from digging up his backyard hasbecome a daily scientific
obsession, and I'm sure we canrelate to that one. I can't wait
to unpack your story and hearmore about it. Welcome, Richard.
Thank you so much, Lynne, forhaving me on your show. It's
(01:47):
so good to have you.
So there's so much to talkabout.
How old were you when you wereallowed to leave China legally?
So I was 14, and then I turned15 shortly after we arrived in
the States. Yeah, that will be1980s so young,
(02:11):
and that must have been, like,ridiculous,
like, such a change, right? Iknow I, I often thought I was a
grown up at the time, and thennow that they look back on I was
definitely just a kid, or itwas, it was age where a person
understands pretty mucheverything, but also, at the
(02:32):
same time, understands next tonothing. And I was right at it.
Yeah,it's so true. It's like you're
smart by then, right? But youhave no experience,
yeah, you, you, you have, youhave a good sense of
whereabouts, but then you try tograpple with what, why and how
(02:55):
and where, yeah, whatwas that like for you? I mean,
it's such a change. It's such ahuge change from one culture to
another,yeah. So it was a it was a storm
that blinded me, and I was notprepared for any of that. And of
course, the leaving China andcoming to the states completely
(03:19):
changed the changed my life, andchanged the trajectory, or a
path, on my life. Andessentially I had to start from
ground zero because I didn'tknow a word of English at the
time, even though my motherspoke English as if English was
her first language, right? So,wow, that's helpful anyway,
(03:40):
right? So did you live with yourcompletely, yeah, so you, did
you live with your grandmotherhere?
So by the time we by the time mymother returned home to America
and brought me in 1980 herparents, or my American
grandparents, had long passedaway. One passed away in 1958
(04:03):
and my American grandmotherpassed away in 1961 or 62 I
forgot 63 maybe, and so. But wehave a lot of American relatives
and for for responsible forgetting us out of China, right?
So thank God for that. I So, didyou find it? I mean, you
(04:25):
obviously very academicallyoriented, and you did well in
school. Did that help? I mean,did you did you find a refuge in
school and you learned English?
Yeah, so it was bizarre, right?
And I guess I was in junior highHong I was uprooted from my
(04:45):
classroom, and most of myclassmates in China had no idea
where I went. I just disappearedmyself and on this Pan Am flight
in route to JFK. So. In 1980 andwhile on the plane, my mother
was trying to give me a crashcourse in English and also her
life. And so by the time I gotto New York, and we spent some
(05:10):
time in New York, and then wesettled down in Boston to where
she was a research fellow at theMass General Hospital. So I was
quickly enrolled in this woman,actually more prestigious high
school called MiddletownAcademy, Massachusetts, right?
It was bizarre that how they tryto figure out where I should be.
(05:31):
So I was sitting at one pointwith ninth grader, even though I
supposed to be a 10th grader, Iguess. And then pretty soon I
was in third grade English classtrying to figure things out.
Yeah, so I, before I left China,I I was becoming pretty good at
writing. I love the history, andI wanted to be a journalist. And
(05:53):
of course, coming to Americaeffectively ended that. And I I
couldn't, I couldn't write anysentences, you know, properly at
the time. And so pretty soon Ifigured out, you know, math is
international language scienceis yes. So I was sort of forced
into that track because easierto deal with. And so eventually
(06:16):
I took a took a path, took acareer in chemistry was also
because, well, you know, it waseasier to understand, and so I'm
very grateful to have a careerlike that for about almost 30
years teaching chemistry,teaching, teaching and
researching chemistry, but itwas not what I had in mind 40
years ago. 50 years ago, yeah,I think that's pretty amazing,
(06:40):
that you could make that shift,and that you were that good in
chemistry. I mean, in math, alot of us couldn't, right? I
mean, really, I'm a writer, andI don't know if I could become a
chemistry professor, excuse me,so that's amazing right there,
that you have those talents andthat you can make that shift.
And I think that, I think a lotof times, education can save us.
(07:02):
It really can. It can give us arefuge and and I think, you
know, we're lucky to have peoplethat are able to do what you can
do. So tell me how much of yourmother's story did you know then
when you were a very young man?
Yeah. So after we arrived,settled down in Boston, and
(07:24):
then, I guess within the firstfew years, she started to
contemplate about writing,writing her her memoir for her,
for the stories of her life,down on paper. And she had a lot
of encouragement, ranging fromour American relatives and so
on. This is amazing story. Yougotta, you gotta write a write a
(07:46):
book about it to a lot of peoplethat just from her work, working
place and so on. And then so sheinherited boxes of letters her
mother had written back in the1940s and 40s. And then she had,
my mother herself, had thisincredible photographic memory
of her childhood also. And thenso it's and then also her, my
(08:11):
American grandmother was anamateur photographer, and took
many 1000s of photos of China.
And so she had all thosematerials, and she started to to
organize them. And then I I hadnothing better to do, so I was
helping her at the time. Andthen through that process, I
started to learn more about whathow she was adopted by American
(08:32):
medical missionaries, and howshe spent some time in the
States during the war or two,and how she was trapped in China
for 30 years prior, oh my gosh,states and bronia over also,
yeah, so that was, that was myfirst, I guess, lessons of her
Life. Yeah, yeah.
(08:54):
30 years, my God, yes.
19/5 1950 1950 to 1980she wasn't allowed to leave.
Yeah, there was no way. A lot ofpeople actually tried. And many,
many while trying, right? Heattempted to, but she was talked
(09:16):
about out of it by my father,because of Swiss, right?
So. And what did your father do?
So, my fatherwas a professor agriculture, I
guess, agronomist, and hespecialized in Rice Research,
and he was among the earliestgeneration in the 1950s and
(09:36):
understood how to do falsebreeding hybrids and actually
genetically modify the rice sothat it will have more it will
be bigger, fuller and morenutrition, I guess all that
stuff, wow. I mean, it'scommercial too. But point is
that he was, he was veryambitious. He wanted to solve a
(09:57):
world of hunger for. Album, atleast famine was an issue in
China. So yes, and and he becamea world renowned agronomist by
by 1980s and 1990s so, ofcourse, yeah. So that was pretty
much his, his life and career. Isaw very little of him, of
(10:19):
course, by the time I, I knew I,I began to get to know him. I
was on a Pan Am Flight, right?
So, oh, I didn't really havemuch of a relationship, unlike
my mother and I, yeah,yeah, sometimes that happens,
but still, you must have feltlike you had big shoes to fill,
right?
(10:42):
Yes, especially at my mother's.
I know my father. My father waswas quite reasonable. Whomever
he and I had an opportunities tointeract, he didn't have that
high of expectations, and but mymother did. My mother had helped
me to some of the highest, mostunreasonable expectations,
especially during our time inthe States, I guess, yeah, I was
(11:05):
to fulfill her dreams, I guesswas that, did you feel like, Did
that feel natural, or did thatfeel like a little bit of
pressure?
I still feel the pressure.
Over the years, I've been tryingto shed this burden brick by
(11:26):
brick, but I still got plenty ofbricks in this bag. I'm still on
my shoulder, right? So, yeah, Ithink, I think some somehow,
writing, completing her memoir,has helped. It was a very good
exercise for me and and in someways, I'm hoping that she's up
(11:46):
there somewhere, right? I'mhoping she she will be proud of
me, and I'm sureshe is. So tell us, when did you
when did it occur to you thatyou could finish this, and when?
How much did she have done whenshe passed away.
So she spent about 12 years fromthe early 1980s to about mid
(12:07):
1990s or early 1990s and then bythe time she passed away, my
father handed me three boxes ofher manuscripts and notes, and
it was over 1000 pages. And justlots of stuff to go through. And
that would be 2014 spring, or2014 and that was just about
(12:34):
pretty much when I thought, whenI began the process. And of
course, at the time, I thought Icould continue my career and
doing this at the same time. Andwithin a few years, it became
impossible to do both. I had tostart consider maybe quitting my
career just to finish hermemoir. So it took me about 10
(12:54):
years, just little south of 10years. Yeah,
well, it just sounds like somuch of it in the beginning was
like being an archivist, right?
That that takes so much timeorganizing and, you know,
comprehending what you have andcategorizing. And I don't think
people understand that kind ofwork takes such a long time.
(13:16):
Yeah, I love the work archive.
And then, and that was prettymuch her style of writing, which
was very annoying, actually, andI follow that style. She it was,
it's much less a memoir. It wasmore archive or a Chronicles, or
chronicles of history,chronicles of our life, very
detailed. And so I had to readthrough all of that, which was
(13:36):
good, because I needed to find avoice before I started writing,
writing and also completing it.
And so, yeah, 1000s of pages tothumb through. In some ways, had
a good start, but there were somany gaps I had to fill. So I
had to interview a lot ofpeople, and I interviewed my
(13:58):
father was my father was one ofthem, and I had to ask many for
many stories in at least from1950s and 1960s prior to I was
born, andyou had your father like
sometimes, I think that's if youwait too long to tell a story.
Everyone's gone, right? It'sjust really good. You had your
dad,and sadly, he was gone shortly
after he was telling about that.
(14:23):
So he passed away in 2015 sothey, they passed away about
nine months apart, or 10 monthsapart. Sorry. Headline. Oh,
thank you. But I, he gave meenough headlines, and then I
could interview a lot of I wentback to China. I made many trips
to China interview a lot ofpeople there just to fill in the
gaps and understand the historybetter, I guess. So, yeah, yeah.
(14:46):
So it was, it was a lot of workand plenty of moments I, I
regretted,Richard. It's a killer
commitment, right? And like.
Sometimes we make thesecommitments in the best of frame
of mind, and then we're like inthe middle of it, and we say,
What did I get myself into? ButI just feel throughout your
(15:09):
story that there was thisenduring connection to your
mother, and this, you know,obligation in the most loving
way, like you were compelled tofinish for her.
Yes, I think so. It was, it wasa promise I made to her, but
(15:31):
although not casually, but ofcourse, at the time when I
promised her, I had no idea whatthis was about. So, so yeah, so
she was dying in nursing homefrom dementia. So, so I was
wondering why she was justhanging on and not just go
right. And then so I saw, howabout, I know you probably just
(15:54):
wonder, who's ever going tofinish your memoir? And if, if
anyone, it will be me, right?
Nobody else will be able to dothis, even my father, before he
died, he said, You know, Ishould try. I try to write this
more in Chinese, and I couldn'tdo it after a couple months. So
then, you know, so it will be upto me. And so I did that. I
(16:16):
thought, yeah, I'll just dothat. You know, on the weekends
and nights have fun,that was very naive, yeah, well,
these things do tend to takeover our lives. I mean, she has
such a, you know, what a hugestory, and there's so much
historical backdrop. So whydon't you just tell me briefly,
I'm wondering, how did she getstuck in China? Like, how did
(16:39):
that happen?
Yes, so I will start from there.
Maybe I'll backtrack a littlebit. So that will be 19 that'll
be January 1951 really, I shouldJanuary 119. 51 her parents were
driven out of China overnight.
Within three days, they wereshipped to Canton, and then
(17:00):
across the harbor went to wentto Hong Kong, and because Korean
conflict was reaching its peak,and and that was a proxy war
between America and China onKorean peninsula, and even
though it involves 17 Othercountries, but the point it was
(17:21):
mainly China Americans.
Yeah, so, right? Korean War onKorean peninsula. And so my
mother at the time, when herAmerican parents were on a train
en route to Canton, Hong Kong.
My mother was a freshman in anEnglish speaking College in a
(17:44):
city pretty close to Shanghai,Conan Kim, but 300 miles away
from her parents, so shecouldn't make it. And even she
made that in now that I knew, Iknow her story. She wouldn't
have the proper paperwork, likea passport at the time to leave
(18:05):
the country. Her parents did,right? They were Americans, and
so, yeah, so then she wastrapped. And then, you know, at
the time we thought they thoughtthat. She thought that would
just be a short term, right? Acouple years later, the war will
end, and she will be reunitedwith her parents, but maybe a
blink of eyes three decades andso why was she back in China all
(18:30):
when she had spent three yearsliving in Yonkers, New York
during the war? That's becauseher parents were just totally
dedicated, you know, medicalmissionaries when the when world
war two ended, or at least forthe VE Day, when the European
(18:52):
Theater ended in 1945 in May of1945 her parents uprooted her
from her classroom in Yonkers,New York, and she found herself
on a battleship in route toIndia and and so, make a long
story short, 1946 say they wentback to China, and her parents
(19:14):
just want to continue theirmedical missions and so, but
they didn't know China was goingto endure through a three year
period of civil war betweencommunist armies and and at the
time the the government iscalled National Republic,
nationalist. And so they fought,fought each other for three
years, and the communist thenwon the war, swept through,
(19:35):
through South and next thing youknow, her parents were thinking
about leaving China. However,communists at the time in 1949
were they were quite reasonable.
Of course. They needed thephysicians, right? They needed
the competent doctors andhospitals. So they allowed my
(19:58):
grandparents to keep on.
Operating the hospital to ahospital remained open. But a
year later, then was Koreanconflict, and that was a no no.
So anti American fervent was alltime high, and and you are and
you won't be safe as Americanliving in China. So so they
were, they were given thepaperwork and driven out of
(20:19):
China overnight. And so my mymother was stuck, yeah,
and she wasn't allowed to gowith them,
yeah, so she couldn't make it.
By the time she made it back, itwas spring of 1951 oh my gosh.
And these are, just want to makesure we understand, these are
medical missionaries that wereAmerican that had adopted your
(20:42):
mom? Yep, right, yes,a little bit. So yeah, my
grandfather, Americangrandfather, was born and raised
in Hartford, Connecticut andfrom a very blue blooded New
England family. Right, wealthybeyond belief, and powerful too,
skipping through the details,somehow, he was looking for a
(21:03):
meaning of life and decided,after he got his MD, decided to
become a missionary in Asia. Hechose China, and along with his
wife, they built a hospital inthe small fishing village on the
banks of Yangtze River, one ofthe longest river in Asia or in
China. What do you mean in thisworld? And my mother was born
(21:24):
directly across on the northernbanks. And then few months
later, since it will be 1931,couple months later, the river
flooded, became one of the worstnatural disasters in 20th
century, killing upwards of 4million people. But somehow, my
(21:45):
mother wasn't one of those 4million people, and she
miraculous lived because herbiological mother was kind
enough that didn't throw her onthe roadside, let her die,
because girls were not valued inChina at the time, but her
biological mother was lookingfor a home for her and and they
found this medical missionarycouple. And then, what a story.
(22:08):
My God, grandparents adopted mymom. My mother was one year old
at the time. What abeautiful story. You know, I
have a friend who is Korean, andshe was found in, literally, in
a garbage can, and taken to anorphanage. And a wonderful woman
who had done a lot of Koreanadoptions, arranged for her
(22:32):
adoption and then for herbrothers. And she's had a
wonderful life, and she's goneback to Korea, but it is such a
sad part of the story, the waythe babies were were handled,
and very sad culture.
High School with this woman.
She's my friend. I worked withher in high school. I know her
(22:53):
well, and I didn't know thisstory until you know we're all
older now and we're connected onFacebook. I didn't know this
story until the last 10 years,and it broke my heart. It broke
my heart to think of mybeautiful friend that that's how
she started her life. But sheprefers to look at it as
positive as these beautifulangels who found her and and
(23:16):
took care of her, and she had avery beautiful trip back to
Korea. So there is this, thisunification, this, you know,
getting back with your familyand understanding that they all
took care of you. They're all,they all care about you. And
she's connected, yeah, mymother,
my mother would agree. Wouldagree with her, totally,
(23:39):
completely, yeah.
But what a way to start yourlife. My god,
yes. But you know, starting fromthat point, she she had the
fortune of a meeting with many,many extraordinary human beings,
(24:01):
and wonderful human beings, orangel in disguise, if you will,
and helped her get through someof the worst time. Particularly,
I'm not just even talking aboutmy grandparents, but just for 30
years in China. So that's a lotof time. Yes, get through those
tough times. Yeah, and,you know, you know, you can't
(24:21):
help but think about how we'reat the whim of a government and
what they decide to do, andwe're just trying to have lives.
People are just trying to livetheir lives
peacefully and right. And, youknow, it's just we don't we
were, yeah, and most of us, wedon't need much. We don't ask
(24:42):
much. We just asked to be beleft alone.
And in spite of all that, yourmother was,
you know, triumphant, she shegot educated, she got married,
she built a life, she raisedyou. It's kind of. Amazing.
It was, you know, she didn'tknow. So she was 19 years old
(25:04):
when her parents left China,tripping out of China. And she
was wondering, up to that point,she had a pretty charm, charm
the childhood, right? And sothen she was wondering how she
will survive. And thenimmediately after, so
immediately at the moment,Chinese government made a rule
that they needed they needphysicians, they need teachers.
(25:26):
So she was already a freshmansophomore in college, right? And
so they decided to turn allthese people into physicians or
her teachers, whether that'sright or wrong, my mother became
a beneficiary of that policy,right? And then they either
waive the tuitions for thisfirst generation of, I guess,
kids post communist regime andso, yeah. So then she, lo and
(25:51):
behold, became anophthalmologist, and then that
also helped her during some ofthe worst time in China.
Because, just like how communistgovernment allow my grandpa,
grandparents, allow some of theAmericans to stay, to keep the
Hospital Operational, becausethey they need physicians. They
(26:12):
need competent physicians, andthey need a hospital. And so my
doesn't matter how it didn'tmatter how they were persecuting
my father or my mother. Mymother actually got, got, got
off a bit easy, relativelyspeaking, because she was
allowed to work in the hospital.
Then they need to keep thehospital. So, right.
(26:33):
Yeah, ironic,but it is you wonder too. You
look back and realize all thesetwists and turns and how
fortunate some of them are, andthey didn't even seem on
purpose. They're just sort ofLucky accidents, in
a way. No, right, right. So didshe
keep in touch with her parentsthis whole time
(26:56):
she was able to? So there werepiles and piles of letters, and
she could sort them through bysaying that, actually, I
received them, these, I neverreceived them, right, because
they were all censored.
Oh my gosh, early 1950swhen communists just took over,
they censored all the letters,right? And then, so they were
(27:18):
able to correspond at least hereand there fleetingly for about
three or four years, until myAmerican grandparents decided,
if they can't go back tomainland China, they can go to
Taiwan and they can continue tohelp Chinese people. And that
sounded wonderful, but thatTaiwan was enemy of the state,
(27:41):
right? So by the time they wentto Taiwan, my mother didn't dare
to write anything to them, andwhatever they wrote never got
never got through, right? So, sothey lost touch with one another
around 1954 to 55 so, and then,yeah,
(28:03):
that's a sad part of the story.
Yeah? Well, it's, it's war,right? It's, yeah, it's good
for us to hear about the humanpart of, like I said, what, you
know, governments do what theydo, and then
human civilians, people like youand I, yeah, we're just
(28:28):
collateral damages, right? Soit's
important to remember that, thatthere's humans just trying to
make a go of their lives andjust to survive. So I'm assuming
she graduated and became anophthalmologist.
And when did she meet your dad?
So they met in college. They hadknown each other, actually when
(28:52):
they were even younger, butagain, World War two separated
them, right? So they gotrekindled, I guess, in in
college. And then I thinklooking back on even though they
would tell me it was true love,and I could tell that it was
probably a marriage ofconvenience, also, there's an
(29:13):
element of one, because mymother, my mother was my mother
was still a foreigner in her owncountry, even by the time we
came back, we came to theStates. But night back, back in
1950s my mother was Chinese, wasreally bad, and she's she spoke
(29:34):
with an accent. And I, when Igot older, I was always
wondering why all kind of funny,Lee, so it's like, what? So now
I'm not completely understand soto I think is was partially she
realized she needs to assimilateand blend in, right? So marrying
my father was the best way ofblending him. There was that
(29:57):
element, but maybe it was alsolove, right? So they. They were
married in 19 I could, I guessright around 1955 when she first
realized she couldn't respondwith her parents anymore. So
did she ever get to see herparents again?
They passed away, 1958 1963respectively. Hansel, yeah, see
(30:24):
that. That makes me sad, I know.
And I guess the last time shesaw them, she was 19 years old,
just hard to imagine. And itreminds me of what we take for
granted, right? Yeah,especially, you know. So there
were some analogies, I mean,similarities there, right? So I
(30:45):
came out, I didn't get to see Ihave my older sister, so I
didn't get to see my oldersister till 20 some years later,
let me get to see my father tillsometime in later 1980s and so,
about a decade or so. So, yeah,so it's like, I mean, I actually
to to look back on, I didn't, Inever wanted to come to the
(31:08):
States right, because I preferwho wouldn't right, who
wouldn't. Prefer just betogether with family. Why would
you want to be right? Butsometimes you do that because
you're in a dire situation youwant to run away from. You have
to do it right? I don't thinkpeople understand that who are
(31:29):
safe and never had to considersomething like that. It's really
important to remember sometimeswe have to leave right?
I mean, no, no humans will be inthe right mind. Will be you want
to be uprooted from theirhomeland and then try to go and
speak a different language,meeting different people,
comparing a foreign surrounding,right? They will much prefer to
(31:52):
stay where they're familiar withand speak their native language.
So I think that'sa really good point and
something important to remember,and especially for Americans
who, you know, I've traveled alittle bit, and I'm maybe not as
insulated as some. SomeAmericans are really insulated.
They haven't traveled much. It'sa big country. Maybe they live
in the middle of it. You know,it's hard to understand
(32:12):
sometimes, what it's like tochange cultures, to be forced
out of where you are. I mean,some people have been here.
Well, your grandfather was anexception, because he left, but
are your you know, your greatgrandfather, some people have
been here for hundreds of years.
You know, they just don't, can'tcomprehend making such a change.
(32:35):
And it's important to realizethat it's not the same
everywhere. And there arereasons why people have to go,
and it's drastic. I mean, thethings you're describing are so
drastic, the shifts ingovernment, yes, separation of
family.
I mean, you included, right? Butyou included your great, great
(32:56):
grandparents or your ancestorcame from somewhere, right?
Migrated from somewhere becausethey were free to fleeing
something, right, everybody, orthey were also M or they're also
looking for new opportunities,opportunities to
actually, yeah, I never talkabout this, but my family's been
here since the 1660s and theythey were fleeing religious
(33:20):
persecution. There you go. Thereyou go, right? What would drive
you to do that? I mean, I getit. There's strong reasons. And
we're all immigrants, except forpeople that were brought here as
slaves and Native Americans inAmerica, we are all immigrants,
precisely, yeah, totally. It'ssuch an important point
nowadays, and I'm so glad thatyou brought that part of the
(33:44):
story. So now that the book isdone, what does that feel like?
I can't even imagine.
Uh, well,I feel relieved. I guess that's,
that's, that's a minimum,minimum feeling, I guess,
minimum, minimally.
(34:07):
I I think I'm well to, to put itbluntly, it really changed me. I
think the point where, well,because What's so surprising
about that, well, I no longerlook at things the same way,
right? Anyway, for 30 someyears, including training, maybe
(34:29):
even longer than that, I justthought about one thing that
will be chemistry and later,teaching. Although teaching is
is a career. Word, worthy,worthy, worthy of pursuit. And
I'm, again, very grateful I hadthe opportunity, but I was very
tunnel visioned, right? I wasjust, I was just looking at,
(34:51):
what's my next research paperspublication, what's my next
student's lecture? And one ofthem different, their thesis,
and then. Writing this memoirmade me sort of look up and
reading, thinking, seeingthings, and so once I started
(35:13):
doing that, when I was in ourlibrary or looking at the
Internet, or sort of searchingon the internet, or reading what
my mother wrote or reading otherpeople's writings, and again,
learning, I suddenly realized Icould never go back to to the, I
mean, to teach chemistry thesame way, at least minimally, at
(35:35):
least and and there were momentsI even found myself standing in
front of class. I actually wantto tell them I don't want to
talk about this. I want to talkabout something else. But of
course, I know, I knew thatwould be wrong, because they
didn't sign up for a historyclass. You signed up for
chemistry class. So so then Iknew that was also a factor, or
(35:57):
in part, why I decided I needto, perhaps terminate my
chemistry teaching career. Soyeah, so I know I think I look
at things and think about thingsin a very different way, from
very different perspectives. SoI think
that's amazing that you one,that you, first of all, that you
(36:17):
finished your promise to yourmother, that is so beautiful.
And second that you expandedyour mind that way, like you
really, literally said, I'mgonna really learn, really
research, and so you expandedyour viewpoint and your mind,
and you're not the same. You'renot the same at all,
I know. So that was kind ofunexpected, because I thought,
(36:40):
okay, so it's a story about ahuman life, a person's life, and
so that person was born, thatperson lived, that person died,
right? So that would have beensort of the gist of it, but yet,
delving into, deeply into herlife, her stories, her stories
are unique, not because of her,but because of events,
(37:01):
historical events that she hadthe Fortran of of encountering
or unfortunate encounter, andbut are all the people that she
met, and all the people thatmade a difference in her life,
and that was rich so well,there's so many Wonderful
levels, right? Like there's thatback, that historical backdrop
that's fascinating, yes, untoitself, but then all those other
(37:25):
levels, people that came alongand helped her and her personal
growth, and her, her educationand her, her, the connections
that you made were reallyinteresting, probably things
that you probably neverconnected was there were, there
were there just some surprisesin there that you didn't know
about your mom.
(37:47):
Yeah, so we were talking aboutmy mom, and I was telling you
that even though I believe weloved each other deeply, but but
most of that probably was due tothe we were against the world,
so to speak, after we, we came,after I came to the States after
she, she called America home. Soshe will often say, after I
(38:12):
return home, right? So, so forthose initial years, you know,
so we were, we were very closeto one another, because I was
hanging on to her short tail sobut she was very strict, and she
was, of course, smart,brilliant. And again, she would
(38:35):
hold me to these loftyexpectations, right? I hated it,
right? And then she has a sortof one side of her persona that
she will show me, and just not avery loving readily to show her
love, right, very different sidethat she will show other people.
And but, you know, you know, andI thought she was also
(38:57):
courageous, brave, just thisperson I have to put on the
highest pedestal I know, I knowof but you know, writing this
memoir, or completing hermemoir, is like, oh my goodness,
she's human. She's just likerest of us, like me, made many
mistakes, and she was afraid.
Yeah, she cried, she struggled.
(39:23):
So it's so I, I, I enjoyed thatpart, because now I put a face
to this human being that I wasputting on some kind of pedestal
unnecessarily. Of course, ofcourse, I was a kid, but
we do that, and what a gift toget to know your mother in that
way?
(39:43):
Yes, right? I know. And also Iwouldn't want to give the book
away, but I could also, I knewthat she had deep friendship
with several people back in1960s to the point where
sometimes I wonder if my fatherwas my father. Other so, oh, no,
these are all things sort of bugout and notes she was unable to
(40:07):
finish, stories that she wasunable to finish. And, you know,
she sometimes she will have aphotograph stuck to a piece of
paper and with an arrow point toa face. Could be a guy, it could
be a could be a gal, and she's,she will say, I gotta talk about
this person. It's just like, Whothe heck is that person?
(40:28):
And that's allyou put things together, yes,
yeah, yeah. Now, whatabout your sister? Does she live
in America, or is she in China?
She's nowliving in Boston. She finally
liberated here in early 2000swith her son. So her son, at the
time, was about six years old.
And now, now it's a grown adult,young adult, I guess. And so my
(40:52):
sister suffers from a cerebralpalsy, and she was born early in
1960s I guess, precisely from1960 I keep forgetting her age.
She's about six or seven yearsolder than me. So and at the
time, they thought was polio,but it wasn't a virus, right? So
(41:12):
then they finally, by the timethey figure out was cerebral
palsy, and shoot, there was noway I'll try to help her or save
her, trying to mitigate her sucha situation. So she she has a
physical, physical handicap orphysical challenge in terms of
speech and walking and so on,but she managed to ultimately
(41:35):
finish college in 1980s andbecame a librarian for most part
of our life before retiring andcoming to come into immigrant
into the states. Yeah. So, likeI was saying earlier, after I
left the China, I didn't see herfor 20 some years.
I can't even imagine, but it'snice that she's, you know,
(41:56):
somewhat near, yeah, yeah.
That's completelyand how did you meet your wife?
Oh, that's interesting. And Imet her in, I guess, 1999 after,
shortly after, maybe a coupleyears after, I was divorced,
when I first wife. And my firstwife was a was was American,
(42:22):
actually born and raised inIndiana, and I actually we had a
very good relationship, which isvirtually parted our ways. And
then this woman, my currentwife, is from my actually was
born in China and was a graduatestudent at Tulane Medical
Hospital, medical school, andthen it was a mutual friend
(42:43):
between us, introduced us andyeah, so then the rest is great.
And how long have you beenmarried?
Officially, probably about 16 or17 years. We dated for a while,
even though we were in twodifferent locations, two
different cities.
(43:05):
So that worked out,that's right. So
I'm wondering if I had spent allthis time on my mother's book
and it was finally done, I mightnot know what to do with myself.
You were so invested and youwere so living that when you
were literally you gave up yourcareer and you were living that
(43:25):
book. Yeah, feel like you knowwho you are now, um,
no, is the short answer, and thelong winded answer is, I'm
trying to figure out who I am. Ilike what I was telling you
earlier, I was rambling away,and I'm trying to tell you that
forever changed right by by bymore, and I no longer look at
(43:50):
things differently and and I wasalso telling you earlier, before
I came to the States in 1980 Ihad always wanted to be a writer
of to become a journalist, ofCourse, writing in Chinese. And
at that time that was was on mymind. And of course, I was
blindsided by coming to America.
And so now I'm thinking, maybe Ican go back to become a writer
(44:10):
and but to write what I mean,the last thing I want to do is
write another memoir, right? SoI'm already burned out on that.
So this past year or so, Ibecome interested in just
writing short stories, like 1000word 8800 word short essays
about event, about story of mylife, in my life, or my from my
(44:35):
past. And I'm not trying towrite a memoir, but just
something memorable. And again,I was going to ask you earlier,
do you think you're going towrite? Because that doesn't go
away, that you know that pull,that first pull, when you're
young, to what you want to do.
And I think you havereflections. You have so many
(44:55):
reflections and so manyobservations to bring to you.
Uh,you know, you're a readership.
I totally, I completely agree.
Yep, I would think I want to dothat. I don't want to write
another albatross about my No,no, it's my life probably
nowhere near as interesting asmy mom's, but there'll be
(45:16):
stories, you know, andreflections like what you said.
Well, you have, youjust have this unique, you know,
like it or not, right? That'syour legacy, this unique,
bicultural, you know, awarenessof how history, history touches
us and changes us. And I wouldread that book. I think that's a
great way to go, is to shareyour reflections and your
(45:38):
thoughts. And those are storiesthat people need to hear. They
need to, you know, thethoughtful kind of, I don't know
what the word is. I'm losing mywords, like the thoughtful
rumination, almost on theintersection of these things
that you uniquely can speak to,and people want, they want to
learn, they want to understand.
(46:01):
And I think that would help alot. So I think,
Well, I think that's why thispast year or so, or 10 months or
so, here and there, I'm tryingnot to put pressure on myself,
but once, so one, one essay amonth, so to speak, just take my
time, have a first draft andlook at it, and then, and then,
(46:23):
you know someone by my Americanrelatives are their authors or
writers, and one of themactually encouraged me to
collect some of these shortstories and their essays, and so
maybe someday you can correlatethem into a book, and that will,
that will be a memoir, like No,not quite Right, like we say,
it's, it's a collection ofreflections and the
(46:44):
perspectives.
Yes, those are some of myfavorite kinds of writing. Yeah,
yes. I love those kind that kindof writing, because it really
makes you think and you have alot to bring to it. So is there
anything that we missed? Isthere anything you would like to
tell our readers that we mighthave not said any, any piece of
advice, or any, anything Ididn't get to
(47:06):
Don't, don't easily promise yourparents anything.
What a great lesson. Oh, my God.
And how can people get her book,your book? How can people get
that book?
You know, amazon.com, Barnes,noble, if you type in spring
flower and then rain flower, itwill pop up.
(47:27):
And is there a way to contactyou, that if people want to talk
to you or ask you questions, orYes, I finally built a website
for the book, okay, for thememoir? So it will be Richard
Perkins shown so my full namespelled out letter by letter,
and then.com and we'll have allthe information there. Yeah,
that'sgreat. I'll put it in the show
(47:48):
notes too, but some people don'tread the show notes, so it's
good to say it out loud. Well,Richard, I could talk to you for
another day. I think me too. Iappreciate so much that you that
you told us your story. It's abeautiful one. And I mean, I'm a
mom, and it just really moves mewhat you've done for your mom.
(48:10):
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for having me.
You
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