Season 5. Episode 8. Larry Jordan: From successful investment banker to spiritual seeker and teacher

Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:24):
Hello and welcome to the storied human today. I'm
talking with Larry Jordan, aformer investment banker. He's
now a follower of Jesus with aZen practice, and he just
published a wonderful bookcalled The Way. The book
received a 2024, Nautilus BookAward. He practices an open
hearted, open minded, nonreligious spirituality, and

(00:45):
we're going to dig into thatlater. The way integrates
religion and science andreconciles eastern and western
world views, confirming with themystics and the scientists that
everyone is related andeverything is connected. Jim
Palmer, who wrote the forewordto the book, said, if you read
only one book to guide yourdeconstruction and

(01:06):
reconstruction process, thiswould be the one to read at age
52 Larry quit his job, sold hishouse and committed to a life of
service along the way, hetraveled the world and had some
powerful experiences. He says,My journey transformed me. I
read over 1000 books, and I hadsome powerful experiences,

(01:28):
baking in a sweat sweat lodge,chanting to Shiva, meditating in
a Zendo and whirling with thedervishes. He wrote his book
after his adult children werewondering what happened to you.
Larry says My life is morejoyful and meaningful now. I cry
more, I laugh more, I have morefriends and deeper friendships.

(01:49):
We'd love to hear more about allof that. Welcome Larry. Very
happy to have you on the storiedhuman
thanks. I'm delighted to behere. I've been really looking
forward to the conversation.
Me too. So we really like toknow someone's origin story and
how they got to the point wherethey were able to make such a
big change like you did.
Okay? Well, I was a raisedCatholic. I was conservative

(02:12):
Republican. I worked in theinvestment banking business,
very transactional. Only gotpaid if I closed. So I learned
how to close and, you know, Ihad a pretty good life to the
extent that I kind of thought,you know, this is maybe in my
40s and 50s. My parents arestill alive. Still are today,

(02:34):
I'm still married to my wife of44 years. I have two grown
children that are launched. Ihave three grandsons. I have
good health, I have somesecurity. I'm not I came to the
realization, you know, my takinghand is really strong. My giving
hand, you know, not that strong,because I was preoccupied, as

(02:54):
most people are, with work,family, you know, community,
life and so a bunch of thingshappened, kind of in in midlife,
as I'm as I'm sort of wondering,you know, what's next for me?
And first of all, you know thethe planes hit the towers on 911

(03:14):
and I sort of thought, You knowwhat? What is that about? What
kind of religion sends airplanesinto towers? And I started
reading about Islam, not becauseof a spiritual interest, just
because of a political interest,really. And I discovered that
Islam is mostly a beautifulreligion, and Muslims are mostly

(03:35):
beautiful people, and there's afew fundamentalists, just like
there's fundamentalist in everyreligion that gives the religion
a bad name. And I was justespecially interested in the
mystics of Islam. And these arepeople. Mystics are people that
go looking for a genuineexperience of ultimate reality.
And I thought, Well, why aren'tthere any Christian mystics? And
of course, there are. And I wasa Catholic, so, you know, I

(03:58):
heard about him a little bit,but not as much as I should
have. And organized religionsort of crowns on the mystics.
You know, it's like, Hey, thisis not a do it yourself program,
you know, if you think you'vehad an experience, talk to a
priest and make sure it's aCatholic experience. And it
doesn't work that way. I was ona a committee for my bishop of

(04:18):
my Catholic Diocese, and I sawsome disturbing stuff, you know,
I I saw that the church was alloriented around priests, and
that, you know, women and LGBTQpeople were marginalized, and
they were doing a fundraisingcampaign, and they were creating
a trust. Of course, I'm in atransaction business. I said,
Why are you creating a trust?
And they said, well, we want toprotect the money from other

(04:39):
uses. And I immediatelyunderstood what he was saying. I
said, Are you trying to protectthe money from priest
settlements? And he said, Yes.
And I also realized inCatholicism, there was a split
between really conservative andreally liberal Catholics, and
this guy was very conservative.
So I realized, you know, I don'teven know. That much about my
own religion, but I did thinkit's been around for 2000 years.

(05:04):
There's 2 billion people thatbelieve it. There's a book. I
mean, what could go wrong? And Ireally thought I was going to
confirm, you know, everythingthat I was taught in church. So
I just started reading. And it'slike, I tell people, I don't
just read the whole book. I readthe whole shelf, you know, and
if I find something, we'll readabout that. And so we philosophy
and and theology and the naturalsciences. And as I looked at

(05:27):
Christianity and sort of held itup to the light, I realized,
first of all, a lot of thingsthat we think are unique to
Christianity really appear inall the different religions.
It's called the perennialphilosophy. I realized that a
lot of things that arefundamental to Christianity,
Christianity and this is thingslike original sin and the
Trinity and substituteatonement, those are theories.

(05:50):
You know, it's not in the Biblethat there's three persons in
one God. It was a theory thatdeveloped in the three hundreds.
So I thought, Wow. Well, I mean,that's kind of basic stuff. And
then I saw what was happeningwith the abuse crisis and LGBTQ,
and I just thought, I think thisthing's gotten, you know, way
off track. And I tell people,it's like somebody that went to

(06:12):
roast marshmallows andaccidentally burned their house
down. I mean, I'm standing inthis, you know, pile of rubble
that these used to be mybeliefs.
Where do I go now? You knowwhat?
It wasn't your home anymore.
Yeah, a lot of people just sayit's not my home anymore.
Yeah, um, now at the same time,you know my work again, it's

(06:37):
very transactional. I was doing,you know, 68 hour weeks, I was
on the road four nights a week.
I really didn't feel like Ilived in the place that I got my
mail. I thought, you know, Iwonder if, if I can just quit.
And I was really inspired by thestory of the rich young man in
the Bible says, but what do I doto attain salvation? Jesus says,

(07:01):
well, follow all thecommandments. That sounds very,
you know, Jewish. He was Jewish.
He said, we'll be a good person.
That sounds kind of Catholic.
Well, that was the original, youknow. And the guy said, yeah,
yeah, I do all that. I do allthat. And Jesus said, Okay,
well, sell all your stuff andfollow me. It haunted me, and I

(07:22):
felt like, you know, I got thisbig old giving hand, and this,
it's never been used. So maybeit's time for me to to redirect.
I can sit here and do more bondissues, make more money, buy a
bigger house, get a nicer car,you know, wear more expensive
clothing. Why?
You know, right. I call thatsomebody's Is that all there is

(07:43):
moment. Oh,exactly right, exactly right.
And, you know, everyone thinks,Well, I don't know if I have
enough. And I thought that too,but, you know, I've traveled all
over the world, and the averageperson makes $2 a day.
Something, wow, is enough foryou, you know? And, and what if
you quit? It doesn't work out.
You gotta back to work. I didn'tresign in disgrace. I wasn't

(08:07):
fired with enthusiasm, you know,I could always go back, and if I
had to go back, I'd be working,which is what I did, if I didn't
quit. So now another lesson, andpeople say, Well, you were kind
of this investment banker. I'msure you were making a lot of
money, and I was but, you know,I tell people, Look, I sold a
4000 square foot house and movedinto a 1600 square foot condom.

(08:32):
After that, I went to take careof my infant grandson in San
Antonio for a year, I lived in1000 square foot apartment. You
know, then I went to Africa, andI was teaching school when I
lived in a dorm room with mywife, you know, and my wife got
sick, and we can talk aboutthat. It's an interesting story
with a moral, um, my wife gotsick, and I was sleeping on the

(08:54):
floor, concrete floor of a ruralhospital in Ghana. And, you
know, I had to look at myselfand say, you know, I mean, I'd
rather be in my 4000 square foothouse than on a concrete floor,
but I'm really living the samelife. And the point is, I cut my
life in half, and then I cut itin half again. I cut it in half
again. So anybody says, Well, Ican't do it. I say, Well, look
at how you're living your life,and can you cut it in half? And

(09:16):
most people can. And I say, youknow, and I wasn't really
somebody that ever did anythingextravagantly. So basically, I
took the rich young man heart,my wife and I quit our job, sold
our house, moved into thiscondo, and we started
volunteering, and I meanteaching school in Africa,
taking care of my grandson,driving veterans to VA. I've

(09:40):
done 1000 tax returns for lowand moderate income people. I
just, I just was exposed to allkinds of people that I've never
met before that I always sort ofsmugly thought, well, if they
worked as hard as me, you know,they could have done what I did.
Oh, yeah. I think a lot of usthink that, yeah, it's not true.
You know, you meet people. Oldin homeless shelters that they

(10:02):
live in your neighborhood, orthey used to, you know, you live
successful careers now they'redestitute because they had to
take care of of an ailing parentor a dying child. And so I just
realized, you know, people arepeople, and yes, I worked hard.
I didn't get anythingundeservedly, but I got some

(10:24):
breaks. You know, I was able todo what other people were not
able to do. So as I'm reading, Ihad a good friend who who said,
You really need to look at theEastern religions. And at the
time, it sounded very boring. Ithought, I don't know whether
they even believe in God. Theythey do. They believe in a
personal God? What's God if he'snot a person? So I started
reading, and I suffered at onepoint, and I'm somebody that

(10:48):
could live 50 years, and Ididn't really suffer, like most
people suffer, but I hadsomething happen in my personal
life that was really difficult,and all of a sudden, the Eastern
religion, because Bucha, was allabout avoiding suffering, and
now that I'm suffering, I'mthinking, well, this is really
sticking with me. And back inchurch, they told me, Jesus is

(11:08):
with you. God has a plan. Yousuffer now, but you'll be
rewarded in heaven. It didn'thelp it didn't help me. Oh,
that's interesting. Yeah,Buddhism helped me. And the
Eastern religions are verydifferent than the Western.
There's a in the Westernreligion, it's all about
personhood. I'm a person. God'sa person. We have a personal

(11:29):
relationship. In my career, I'mgoing to work for personal gain.
I'm going to work towards mypersonal salvation. I have as a
citizen, personalresponsibility. And the east,
it's like, what's a person, youknow? What you think is a is
your chemistry, it's yourconditioning, it's your
experience. It's a little bit ofsomething happened. So something
else happened. You didn't reallycontrol it. And there's an

(11:51):
exercise in the East selfinquiry. Who am I? And, you
know? So I say, Well, I'm aretired guy. Well, you weren't
always that. Well, you know, I'ma volunteer. You weren't always
at, well, I'm a grandfather. Youweren't always that. Peel away
all the layers, and who are you?
And in the West, we peel awayall the layers, and we have
something we think is a soul.

(12:13):
And then the east, some folksneed say, Well, no, you really
don't have anything below. Youknow, you just have the same,
you're making the same stuffthat everybody and everything
else is made of. And I saw thiswonderful sense of oneness in
the Eastern religions that Ithink is really missing from the
duality of God's up here and I'mdown there, and yeah, and so I'm

(12:38):
reading about the mystics, andwhen the mystics have a peak
experience, a transcendentexperience, as a Catholic, I
thought, Well, that'll be cool.
All the Popes will be on oneside, and all the saints will be
on the other side, and the threepersons are going to be up
front, and there's grandma andpeople that have transcended
experiences in all cultures atall times, it's not like that.

(12:58):
They sense the oneness. They seethings on a granule level. They
don't know where their hand endsand where everything else
begins. And they have a sensethat everything is okay, right
here, right now. There's noplace else to go. There's
nothing else to do. You werealways part of the whole, just
in a realgreat description, yeah, I've

(13:23):
had moments of that. Justmoments. Yeah, that's so
wonderful.
I say most people do, mostpeople have moments, and some
people have experiences. Andthey say something like a third
of the people have hadexperiences. I have an
interesting story about that.
I'm an intellectual guy. I readall the books in the library,
and I'm reading something andall sudden, reading about the

(13:43):
mystics, and I slam and shut andI tell my wife, you're not going
to believe what I just read. Andshe's a very intuitive person,
and I'm explaining the mystics,and there's a tear rolling down
the cheek, and she says, I havehad that experience. I didn't
know what it was. I didn't tellanybody. I didn't think it was
spiritual. I just thought it wassomething very special, but I
had a mystical experience. Andso, you know, I'm a believer.

(14:06):
And so then I'm also readingabout the science, and there's a
great book called The Tao ofphysics, T, a, l, I've read
that. Okay, well, then you knowwhere I'm going. You know,
that's a wonderful book, yeah.
And, and this physicist says,you know, the table is not as
solid as you think it is. Theair is not as empty as you think

(14:29):
it is. We think about space andtime, but it's really space
time. We think about energy andmatter, but it's really two
sides of the same coin. E equalsMC squared. We can if two
particles, particles areentangled, and you separate
them, and you change one theother changes instantly across
infinite distance. Einsteincalled it spooky action at a

(14:52):
distance. And you know, we'renot observers of an external
world. We're participants in aworld. And for instance. If a
scientist shines an electronmicroscope at a particle, it
moves, you know, we changeoutcomes just by observation.
And there's the famous doubleslit experiment, where is is
light a wave or a particle? Idon't know. Let's roll out the

(15:14):
particle machine. Oh, it is aparticle. Well, just to be sure,
let's wave roll out the wavemachine. Oh, it is a wave. So
there's all this ambiguity, butthe underlying message of the
Eastern religions and themystics and the quantum
physicists is everyone isrelated and everyone's
connected. And so I'm at thepoint

(15:38):
late in my journey, I thought,well,
I have this kind of esotericspirituality now I only know one
thing. I don't hardly believeanything. I'm sure there's no
home for me. I'm sure there'snobody that that practices what
I practice. And I bumped into aguy named Ruben habito, who's a

(15:59):
former Jesuit priest who studiedin Japan in the 70s. And all the
Jesuit priests in Japan in the70s studied Zen. So he's no
longer a priest, but he's stilla Catholic and he's a Zen
teacher. And I said, Well, Igotta find this guy. Where is
he? Well, he's in Dallas, Texas.
He lives 20 minutes for me. So Ifound him, and I said, Well,
look, I don't want a bunch ofdoctrine. He said, We don't have

(16:20):
a bunch of doctrine. You know,we're all about objective
evidence and subjectiveexperience. And there's a Zen
patriarch years ago who said youdon't have to seek for truth.
Just let go of your beliefs.
It's there to find. Don't makestuff up. Don't speculate. If

(16:42):
you ask a Zen master, is there aGod who knows? You know, we
can't. We can't. What is it?
What does it take to be saved? Idon't know. Are you? Are you
living here and now? Are youreally present here and now?
Say, Well, what you know? Wheredo I go after I die? All the
things that I used to lay awakeworrying about as a Christian

(17:03):
just sort of evaporates like,you know, I'm here now. I'm
living my life. I understandconnection and relationship and
oneness. And somebody says,Well, I can't believe you spent
20 years, you read 1000 books,you baked into sweat lodge.
That's all you came up with. AndI say it's all I mean, it's very
profound. And if you think we'reall related, we're all

(17:27):
connected, you don't do anythingto anybody else that you
wouldn't do to your husband,your son, your brother, your
neighbor. You don't withoutbeing political, but there is a
political message in the book.
If you think like I do, and Ilive in Texas, a lot of people
don't. Lot of people think likeI used to think. But if you

(17:48):
think like I do, you don't banMuslims, you don't build walls,
you don't marginalize LGBTQpeople, you don't separate
families, you don't take awaytheir health care. And so just
with that one, uh, commandment,and it's not so different than
love your neighbor as yourself.
I tell people. Somebody said,Wow, I don't know your way out
there. Well, I'm kind of whereJesus ended up. Yeah, I'm not

(18:09):
comparing myself to Jesus. I'mjust saying that that was his
message, the goal. You're notthat far away,
right? I remember one. I forgetwhere I read this. It just kind
of blew my mind that I've readit two different places, that
Jesus really was a Taoist andthat he tried to adapt his
message so that people wouldunderstand and use parables. But

(18:32):
when he said, Love your neighboras yourself, he really meant,
love your neighbor as yourself,because he is yourself and he
it's a deeper thing that he wastrying to communicate. And I
think what he said, I am the wayTaoist really point to the fact
that that's what the Tao means,right?

(18:53):
And there's a there's a quotethat starts my book, that's a
Buddhist quote that says, tostudy the way is to study the
self. To study the self is toforget the self. To forget the
self is to be enlightened by allthings. To be enlightened by all
things is to remove the barrierbetween self and other. So, so

(19:14):
the way somebody says, well, andmostly from a in the east,
people say, What a great namefor a book, that's what the
Bucha talk about. That's whatthe in the west they say, Well,
that's what Christianity wascalled before it was called
Christianity. But I hope thisbook is not the one way, right?
So, well, it is the one. It'sjust a very big road. It's a big

(19:37):
way following Jesus. Yeah, mostof the way you're following
Krishna and Bucha and Lao Tzu. Imean, yeah, it's that you're
supposed to live now, there's alot of paths up
the mountain, like they say,there's a lot of paths up the
same mountain. And what I reallyhear in is that you learn to

(19:58):
deal with your ego, becausewe're so. Ego obsessed in the
West, and you learn to let thatgo. Because I was thinking when
you were talking about, Do Ihave enough? When you were, you
know, considering, like, maybechanging if we're living in our
ego, we never have enough. And Iused to be there, I used to, you
know, you can't have enoughmoney, and you're always worried

(20:20):
you can't have enough status,you can't have nicer, nice
enough clothes. It's thishamster wheel kind of thing. And
what I admire is that you wereable to get off of that. I also
am intrigued that your wife waswith you like you were in
agreement. I think that's huge.
It doesn't always happen, andthere are many because one
person moves in one direction,the other person doesn't move,

(20:42):
and they move the other way.
I think it's lovely that youwere able to do it together.
Yeah, and she's very like, Isay, she's intuitive. She just
has a basic goodness about herand, and I tell people, she got
there the short way and I gotthere the long way.
She understood. Yeah, Iunderstand. Plus, you were

(21:03):
obsessed with providing. Youknow, men are obsessed. I mean,
it's hard on men. They're,they're expected to step up and
work hard and provide.
Well, you know another thing,when you talk about marriage,
I'm, I'll always be gratefulthat when I said to my wife, and
I told her twice, I had a job,one time, I mentioned it briefly

(21:24):
in the book, that it was justdestroying me. I said, I have to
quit, you know. And I was makingall this money, I didn't know
what I was going to do. I wasgoing to go out on my own. And
she said, Well, let's do that,you know. Let's do that. And
then when I said, you know,well, I didn't say, we just
decided we were going to retire,we decided that there was
something more out there. And Itry to, I try to inspire my kids

(21:49):
and people of their age that youknow, if you if you plan right,
and if you think right, and ifyou save, and if you cut your
life in a nap, if you need to,you can do this. And there's
another way. You don't have towork until you're 80. There were
a lot of people in my businessthey couldn't quit, because how
could I leave X amount of moneyon the table or get ready to

(22:11):
quit? And their wife says, Don'tquit. I like to go to need I
like to drive Alexis, you know.
And I'm just so grateful that mywife was a true partner. She
trusted me, you know, I mean,but she has the same question,
well, is it enough? And I saw,nobody can know, but I think
it's enough. And you know, partof, here's another lesson, I

(22:32):
guess part of what gave me theconfidence to do that is that I
took risk all my life, you know,I, I thought, you know, the
people that build wealth, theybuild wealth in the stock
market. I need to understand thestock market, and it's not that
hard to understand, but you haveto make some mistakes along the
way, because that's the way. Andso, you know, by the time I was

(22:53):
50, I'd made a bunch ofmistakes. I've Resolved never to
make those particular mistakesagain. And, you know, it gave me
the confidence to say, you know,with this amount of money and
this amount of years, I'mprobably going to be okay. And
and my wife, you know,confidence rubs off. And if you,
if you're really convicted thatthis is going to be okay, and

(23:14):
your wife says, You know betterthan I do, but you haven't been
wrong so far, you know. And I'magain. I'm just so grateful that
that I married the person Imarried, that she grew with me,
and that she was, yeah, was thepartner the whole way. There was
a time when I left the job thefirst time she was the
breadwinner. You know, she shehad been a stay at home mom. She

(23:34):
went back to work. We went onher insurance.
Not everybody would do that.
So you're a true team. Yeah,tell me a little bit about when
she got sick. You were in Ghana.
Oh, yeah. So one of the thingswe decided to do was go to
Africa, and there was avolunteer program where you

(23:54):
could work in hospitals andschools and this kind of thing.
We went to Ghana because it'sthe first democracy in Africa,
and it's nominally Englishspeaking, and it's not like
going to Somalia or something. Ididn't want to take my wife to
Somalia. We got there, and itwas very rustic. And, I mean, we
were really not prepared forthat. And so dirt roads, no

(24:18):
industry. You know, peopleoperated what you might think of
as a bait shop. There weren'treally big office buildings or
anything. There was subsistencefarmers and fishermen and the
like. So if there's no industry,there's no tax dollars, if
there's no tax dollars, there'sno services. So there was really
poverty there, like I have neverseen. Wow, yeah, I had a little

(24:40):
bit of culture shock. Itdisturbed me so much. I wasn't
eating, I wasn't sleeping. Andabout a week into it, I finally
started kind of come back tomyself. But I was shaving. I was
back when I shaved. I wasshaving, and I saw I looked
myself in the eye in the mirror,and I thought, Oh, there he is
again. It was like seeingsomebody from high. Village you

(25:00):
haven't seen a long time. And I,I don't know if I physically had
changed, or if I was so out ofmyself that I, I wasn't totally
aware, but I, I sort of, I sortof lost my sense of self a
while. So that's behind me.
Everything's going well. My wifegets a bug bite. Now, nobody
dies of a bug bite in Arlington,Texas, but people die of bug

(25:23):
bites and gone. So we went to ahospital. Friday afternoon. Her
arm had swelled up like the sizeof a leg. There's 100 people
waiting outside the hospital.
What are all these peoplewaiting for the doctor? When's
the doctor? Get here Monday? Sothis doesn't work. So we had
some, you know, people that wererunning the program there. So

(25:44):
we'll get you to the RegionalHospital to few hours drive
pumping dirt roads. We get tothe hospital, no doctor. Well,
where's the nearest doctor? Youcan try the other hospital. So
there's two Cuban doctors thereon a medical mission, and they
said, Well, we're going to, I'mgoing to give you IV
antibiotics, and we might dosurgery. My wife's a nurse, and
she's like, I really don't wantto get surgery from a Cuban

(26:08):
doctor in a rural Africanhospital. She's She knows, yeah,
sothe care was not good, and the
situation got worse. And Icalled the Traveling Space
company, and I don't know ifthose people even answer the
phone. I mean, you write a checkand nobody use it. I had to use
it. And I said, Hey, I'm inAfrica, and I'm afraid my wife
is going to die. I'm in thisrural hospital, not getting good

(26:29):
care. Situations worse. Theysaid, I tell you, what can you
get yourself to the capital ofGhana? I said, Yeah, I have
transportation. I said, Well, goon in and go to this hospital.
It's the best one in thecountry. They'll know who you
are. Know who you are. Whatevermoney you spend will reimburse
so I'm I'm in a worse situationthan that. I have $20 in my
pocket now I left, I leftthinking I was going to the

(26:53):
local hospital. Now, you know,four hours from home, and I got
nothing, and my my credit carddoesn't work in the machines,
and because of all the fraud andafter, when you go to the city
bank, you go to the top floor,the biggest building in Accra
and say, I have a passport and abank account number and a Visa
card, I'd like to get my money.
And they say, can't do it. So Ihad this existential crisis

(27:18):
that, you know, I have alwaysbeen able to talk my way out,
think my way out, pay my wayout. Nothing works here. There's
no one to talk to. I don't haveany money. I'm helpless. Oh my
gosh. So so I did find a hotelthat would it was catered to

(27:41):
tourists that took my Visa card,so I stayed in a hotel that was
exactly a mile from thehospital, exactly a mile from
the shopping mall. When youcheck into the hospital, they
say, Well, you gotta get yourown food and your own sheets and
towels. Wow, everything. Yeah.
So, so I'm I'm lugging back andforth all the food and bedding
and everything from from theshopping area to the hospital,

(28:03):
and then going back and crashingin the hotel. And so my wife is
getting good care now, not carelike you would get here, but she
was stabilized. We're ready togo. And so our our guide comes
to pick us up. I said we'regoing to the airport. I hope he
goes, No, we're going back tothe jungle. My wife is she's up
for it, and I'm not, becauseI've already crashed a few

(28:28):
times, and I just looked thisguy and I said, I'm not used to
this. I'm very exposed here,like I'm not alone. I can't
think my way out or talk to myway out or pay my way out. I
need to find a way to get someof the money that I have in the
United States to Ghana, in casethis happens again. And this
young man, who's about 30, Inever forget it, he looked me in

(28:51):
the eye, and he said, don't needto understand your problem. Your
wife is full of antibiotics.
She's not, she's not going toget sick, you know, to where
you're staying in the dorm room,and your stuff is there, and we
provide your food, and we'll getyou the airport in a couple

(29:12):
weeks. What exactly are youworried about? And you know, I
felt about this big wow, shamed.
I said, you know, I'm, I don'tknow. I don't know. You know,
let's, let's go back to thejungle. And, you know, I thought
about it. All those people inthose hospitals, all the people

(29:35):
that were hosting us in theprogram, all the other
volunteers, some of them dropwhat they're doing and found a
way to get four these are peoplewe've known for a week. Found a
way to to the capital of Ghanato check on us. And one of them
said, I'm just going to keep,you know, putting my Visa card,
which works, into an ATM, untilyou have enough money. And it's

(29:55):
like, you know, I. I don't knowif you want to call it, you
know, God or fate or karma orthe universe, but there was a
bunch of help there that I hadbeen receiving the whole time
that I just didn't evenrecognize. And so, like I say, I
was ashamed and humbled. Ilearned an incredible life

(30:20):
lesson. I thought, you know, ifI'm ever in a position like this
again, I'm going to have toremember that. I'm going to have
to get over this fear, thissense of control, this has
really been a learningexperience for me. So fast
forward, 10 years later, we goto Ecuador, to the Galapagos
Islands, and we're on a boatwith only 100 people, and one of

(30:44):
them has COVID, then two of themhave COVID, then oh no, oh no.
So we get back to land, and thisis when you still had to test to
get on a plane, and my wife hasCOVID, so we have to stay for
for five days, and then I haveto test and I have COVID, so we
have stay another five days. Sowe're 10 days in a hotel room in
Ecuador. Now, when the when thecruise ship dropped us at the at

(31:09):
the hotel, they said, okay, goodluck. We're we're gone. Hope
everything's works out for you,and everyone else is standing
there like deer in theheadlights. And my wife and I,
since we were veterans at thispoint, said, Okay, we'll wait.
Where you go? How am I going toget a hold of a doctor? How am I

(31:31):
going to get my prescriptionsfilled? How am I going to get my
flight rescheduled? How am Igoing to get to the airport? You
know, you can leave, but beforeyou leave, I need to see my way
out of this sense of mine that Iwould not have had before and
and the sense of you haveresources, you know, use them,
you know, yeah, to do it byyourself, but you have to do it

(31:56):
and stuff. Yeah, that'sso interesting to me. You were
so that first story when youwhen you realized you were
humbled in Ghana, you you werejust so used to being the person
who had the extra money always,you know, ready for an
emergency. You were the you werethe man, right? You were the guy
that was untouchable, yeah? Andthat makes total sense, but what

(32:17):
a lovely lesson to learn, yeah,to be humbled in that way. Yeah,
yeah. And, you know, when Ithink back on it, I mean, it
worked out fine. It's to gothrough. But like I say, the
resources were there. There waslots of help, people that I knew
or didn't know at all. You know,they were there when we needed

(32:40):
them. So it was somereally great lesson.
So when did you first thinkabout writing this book? Because
this book sounds amazing. Ican't wait to read it. I
actually ordered the Kindleversion. Oh,
good. Okay. Well, thank you forthat. Well, my kids, you know,
said, Geez, what happened to youas you were describing and I
said, Look, I I couldn't, thiswas a throwaway comment. And I

(33:03):
said, I couldn't tell you,since, I mean, I'd have to write
a book. You need to write that.
And two things. One, you know,I, I'd read all these books. I
hadn't taken a single notebecause I didn't know I was
going to write a book. Um, but,you know, they convinced me, no,
there you have something to say.
And like I did, and I felt like,you know, my kids are not going

(33:26):
to read 1000 books. They're notgoing to bake in a sweat lodge,
they're not going to teachschool in Africa. But, you know,
I learned some things that thatthey should know, and maybe
other people should know, ifthere were read my book, you
know, it's it's okay. Now mygrandsons. It's dedicated to my
grandsons. And when the bookcame out, I opened the first

(33:46):
page, I showed it to him, and mylittle six year old grandson
says, Oh my gosh, I'm famous.
I'm in a book that that was thatmeant a lot to me, too. And then
this thing, you know, we haven'ttalked about my family of
origin, but okay, my parents arestill very much in the situation
I left, and they really didn'tunderstand what I was doing or

(34:09):
where I was going and and theywere felt challenged. They were
angry that I was taken off in adifferent direction. They were
somebody that says, Well, youknow, we're not going to talk
about politics or religion. AndI said, Well, we can do that,
but that's a very superficialrelationship. I mean, yeah, with
my friends and with my family.

(34:32):
And, I mean, if you want to talkabout the weather, I guess, I
guess we can talk about theweather. And then my dad asked
me one time, well, are youwriting a book? And I said,
Yeah, well, where is it? It's,were you going to show to Well,
I don't know. I wasn't going toinflict that on you. You don't
like to talk about this stuff.
I'd like to see it. And he readit very carefully. I. He gave me

(34:58):
a lot of constructive criticism,and at the end, he said, I know
you better than I did before hewrote the book. I feel closer to
you since you've written thebook, and I understand you know
the arc of your life now in away that I didn't before. Wow.
And so before the book even cameout, it just was. It's

(35:23):
transformative for me. I got myfirst box of books. My son said,
you're an author now? I said,No, I'm a writer.
An author is someone who sells abook,
a $20 bill out of his pocket. Iget emotional. Thing about it. I
said, Congratulations, you're anauthor. It just like I say, it

(35:50):
really transformed me the book.
I tried to get it done, youknow, with a publishing house,
and it's just too difficult tobook to my son says, lots of
people would like this book.
Nobody would expect to like it.
Nobody would go looking for it.
And if they went looking for it,they wouldn't know where to find
it. So it's been a realchallenge. But I got a book I

(36:10):
got a Book Award, the NautilusBook Award, that's so wonderful.
I got a ringing endorsement fromJim Palmer, who wrote the
forward, who's who's kind of abig guy in my small circles, and
I just somebody said, Well, youknow, writing a book is not just
about writing. It's aboutmarketing. Well, I was in the
transaction business, so Ileaned in. I said, You know

(36:31):
what, all the shit out of thisbook. Typical self published
book sells about 200 copies. Ihad that many sold, really,
before it came out. Wow, once itcame out, I started doing free
promotions and download theKindle version free, and it's

(36:52):
unlimited, so somebody withKindle Unlimited can get it
free, because it's not aboutmaking money. To me, yeah, I
didn't leave a big time jobto my way as a writer and make
you know, yeah,so, so I've given a bunch of
today. There's almost 8000 booksout there. How I get calls and
emails and letters like peoplethat say I'd like to meet you.

(37:17):
Are you? Are you anywhere nearme. I have met people in groups
that are going through sort ofwhat I went through and and I've
become friends with people thatI've met online. I mean, really
good friends who travel togetherand this kind of thing. So,
yeah, the book's been a blessingevery way that it could be. I

(37:38):
love it. I love how it happened,too. I love how you you
naturally seeded your mind with1000 books like that was all in
there, and then you had thoseexperiences. So the that's a
strong base for a book, youknow, I bet some people thought
it came out of nowhere, but Isee it as like a really natural
evolution of your journey.

(38:02):
A result of your journey, thebook was so
important to me. I My wife hateswhen I tell this story, but I
have to tell you there, I'mabout halfway through the book,
and I'm starting to see whatit's turning into. And people
that don't write, I see a bookand I think, oh, a guy wrote a
book, you know, and that's justthe book that he was supposed to
write. Well, there is no bookthat you're supposed to write.

(38:23):
There's there's a blank piece ofpaper, and it could turn into
1000 different books. And thereare so many decisions about
content and tone. And should Isay, Is this too much? Is this
too little? Is it too strident?
Is it too weak? Do I projectauthority, but also humility and
and I was about halfway throughit, I thought, Damn, this is, I
don't know if it's a good book,but it's it's the best book that

(38:44):
I could write, and it's a betterbook than I thought I was going
to write. And so good. It becamea motivator for me. And I told
my wife one time, I'm afraid I'mgoing to get in a car accident
or something. The guys in theambulance can say, I don't think
you're going to make it, andI'll just grab them and say, I
have to make it. I still have abook. My wife said, Well, don't

(39:05):
worry, you'll get to a pointwhere I'll be able to finish the
book 40 if you get it. So aboutthe sixth or seventh, I wrote a
lot of dresses, but she readeveryone on. So did my kids, and
at one point she she would saythis, that she basically said,
You can die now I can finishyour book. But it gave me a

(39:27):
certain piece, because I justfelt like, Man, I really have
something to say. And theadvantage of not having a bunch
of notes, most people writebooks, they take a bunch of
notes, connect the dots from onenote to another. And I wasn't
like that. Mine was like, Whatdo you want to tell your kids
about your journey? And it wasconsciousness. I I started at

(39:48):
the first page and ended at thelast page, and I told the story,
and I I interwove my personallife into my exploration. It's
not. Angry or judgmental. It'snot preachy or speculative. It's
written in a way most people saythat was really a clear book. I
mean, I'm astounded that youcovered everything. You covered

(40:11):
and quantum physics and Easternreligions. You know, in a way
that's understandable.
You pulled it in because the thebasis of your book is your
story. And we know, you know,the podcast you're on is called
the story of human story is soimportant, and it's the
structure of your story. That'show people, human beings, have

(40:31):
always learned that way. So youintuitively told your story, and
then you pulled in all thesethings that you learned, but
they fit. And I love how peopleare connecting with it. That
must feel so good. Yeah,and it was deliberately user
friendly. It's, it's one of somepages. It's small chapters, it's
small paragraphs, it's shortit's I kept when people would

(40:54):
read it, they say, I don't knowwhat that word is, because it
would be jargon that I picked upin a, you know, PhD dissertation
somewhere, you know. So it'svery clear. And I've had an
educator tell me, you know, thisis a, this is a very visually,
this is an easy to read book forpeople that like to read, you
seem to understand, really,readability, yeah,

(41:17):
yeah. And I really, I have afriend who's a musician, and he
he does three minute songs, andhe sells them for 99 cents. And
if you pay 99 cents, you canlisten that song as many times
you want, in the shower, mowingthe lawn, driving, reading a
book. A book is different. Abook is, you know, 399, for an e
book, 5099, for a paperback. Itrequires a four or five hour

(41:41):
investment. And my book, youdon't read it while you're
watching a ball game. You justread it while you're not doing
anything else. So I'm sograteful for somebody that was
interested enough or curiousenough to pick up the book that
time. So I felt like I owed thatguy, you know, and I didn't just
have footnotes in it because Iattributed all the quotes. And I

(42:03):
thought, anybody wants to findout where that quote came from,
they can go look at it. This isa general market book. This is
more like a series of essays.
There's an annotated readinglist that says, here's 30 books
that were helpful to me, andhere's 30 words about why I
liked each one, and then there'sthis really good with three
questions for 20 chapters or so.

(42:26):
You know that are that thatpeople are supposed to be able
to digest the book? It'sperfectly designed for book
clubs, and it's been that'sgoing to say, I read about I
read that on your website. Let'smention your website so I don't
forget, because I'll put it inthe show notes. But I like
people to know it's LarryJordan, author.com and your book
is available on a lot of sites,Amazon included. Yeah, is there

(42:48):
any other way you like people toreach you, or anything else
you'd like people to know?
A couple things. It's it's alsoan Ingram Spark. If you're at a
at a library or bookstore, theydon't go to Amazon, because you
just don't do that. So so it's,it's in a distributor where, if
you go into your independentbookstore, and I'm a big

(43:09):
supporter of independentbookstores, great, we can get it
for you. I have an emailaddress. Larry Jordan,
author@gmail.com I love to hearand I learn from people. People
call me and say, Have you everheard of this author, or have
you ever explored this conceptor something in the book
triggered on. So I love peoplethat have learned a little from

(43:30):
the book. And I also have a blogat Patheos, which is a website
for all different religions. Andthe title of a blog, and I'll
explain that as you might beright. Because again, I I know
one thing. I if I have beliefs,I hold them really loosely. I
had a friend visit me. I go toCrestone, Colorado, which is

(43:53):
described in the book. They haveall these spiritual centers.
That's where I had a lot of myexperiences. A friend of mine
came to see me. He's a medicaldoctor. A long time friend,
fraternity brother was in mywedding, and he's fundamental
Christian. And he said, Tell meabout your book. I got about
three sentences. He said, No,no, I think the Earth was
created 6000 years ago. I thinkthe dinosaurs and everybody but

(44:17):
Noah died in a great flood. AndI said, Wow. Well, I said, we're
at 9000 feet above sea level.
Did the water get here? Wheredid all that water come from?
Where did all that water go? Didall those kangaroos doggy paddle
from Australia to the MiddleEast, take a 40 day cruise and
paddle all the way back? I mean,why do we have dinosaur bones

(44:40):
and human bones in totallydifferent places? And then I
said, this is the reallyimportant thing. But I wasn't
here 6000 years ago. I wasn'there 13 billion years ago. You
might be right now. That is awonderful way to either end a
conversation. Conversation orstart a new one, yeah? And a bit

(45:00):
of a barb in it, because theperson says, Well, of course,
I'm right. And then they think,Well, I think I'm right, you
know, yeah, yeah, yeah. I alwaystell people, Look, all religion
is culture, all theology isspeculation, yeah, so it's just
a little bit that anybody knows.
And there's a whole bunch ofthings that they believe, but
they sometimes believe him sostrongly they think they know

(45:22):
him. So I told my friend, youmight be right. And then I
leaned in and I said, your turn.
He said, What do you mean? Isaid, Well, tell me I might be
right. I mean, it's a smallconcession. You weren't here
6000 years ago either. He said,I can't do
and I said, Well, I knew you cando
it. I love you. There's no hardfeelings. But I think you can

(45:45):
appreciate that. You know, fromsomebody just said, you might be
right. You're not able to saythe same thing to me. It's
pretty arrogant. You know, it'spretty arrogant. He goes, Yeah,
I know. Sorry about that. We'reup on the mountain, and he had
this experience of, oh my gosh,you know, there's a there's 1000
foot cliff. I can see 50 milesthat way, and 50 miles that way

(46:08):
and 50 miles that way. There'sall this beauty, and this is
just one small part of thisimmense, infinite, eternal
universe. And so he came downthe mountain with me, and we're
sitting there having scotch andcigars, and we're looking at the
mountain, and he's, you know,conversation we had the other
day. I said, Yeah, he says, Youmight be right. Oh, I love that.

(46:30):
And it was just, nobody had tosay, Oh, I win, I win. Or you
lose, you lose. It was just,this is what I think, this is
what you think. We both giveeach other enough grace to say
you might be right? Yeah, youknow, you know what I like about
that the gentleness. There's agentleness when you go through
everything you've gone through,and there's no need to, like,

(46:51):
slam somebody or one upsomebody, you're just gentle
about, you know, you might beright. I like that, and there's
ahumility too, because, yes, mind
changing my mind, I have changedmy mind more than anyone I know,
and more dramatically thananyone I know. So I love to, I
love to change my mind Idon't really know. I mean, older

(47:14):
I get, the less I'm sure aboutwhat I know. And that's a lovely
feeling. Also, somethinghappened to me about maybe 12
years ago. I just had this, um,I don't know, thought thinking
about God and the person, theneighbor, one of our neighbors,
is fundamentalist Christian, andI was just thinking, you know,

(47:34):
she's, she's lovely, and whatshe believes is really nice, and
she treats people well, and, butI just had this thought that
it's all it's all right, youknow, God is much bigger than
that. And I just got this imageof just this huge Creator
Source, kind of like, becauseI'm a Star Wars person, I like

(47:56):
that concept that, you know, theDAO is like the force in Star
Wars, and that God, you know,God, or the universe, however,
people talk about creator, isbigger than all of that. And so
we don't know. And you have tobe comfortable with not knowing.
And so for me, that was a realturning point. It's like, well,
yeah, there's a place for all ofus

(48:20):
there the It's interesting youphrase it that way, because I
use those words in the book. Italk about God from the
personal, a personal God and theuniverse being impersonal. But
after I wrote the book, I sortof thought, well, you know, if I
had to do over again, I would, Iwould just talk about ultimate
reality, which is a neutralterm, um, it may be personal. I

(48:40):
don't think it is. It may besupernatural. I'm not even sure
that it is, you know, we used tothink that thunder and lightning
was supernatural. We used tothink that plants had souls. We
don't think that anymore, youknow, so, so is something that
we don't understand? Is itsupernatural, or is it just
something natural that we don'tyet understand? I've had some
really good point atheists whosay, I just don't like this idea

(49:04):
of spirituality. I say, Well,I think I mean something
different than you think. Imean, yeah,
I think there's an ultimatereality, and you can call it
God. You can call it Brahman, asthe Hindus, do? You can call it
the house a Dallas, do? You cancall it void or emptiness, as
the Buddhist do. It's to me,it's the same thing. Yeah, it's

(49:27):
supernatural or not. So when Italk about spirituality, I'm
talking about connecting tosomething bigger. And there
certainly is something bigger,and people when they have that
peak experience, and mysticismis just a way to access that
aspect of ultimate realitythat's always there
to tap into that. Yeah, and Iwas going to mention that it is

(49:47):
kind of fascinating that thethey're studying, the more they
study science. What used to seemlike magic, right, is really
just science we didn'tunderstand and it most closely.
I. Would say that physics andwhat they're discovering in
physics most closely matchesTaoism out of all the religions,
Taoism describes how theuniverse works. Which I love?

(50:11):
Because I love Taoism. I love Ilove the simplicity of it.
Yeah, and I can't wait to plowinto your book, because I think
we need somebody who has thatbigger view and comes from a
place of acceptance? You comefrom a real place of acceptance?
Yeah,one thing that's helped me in
this recent political climate,you know, you I know a lot of

(50:32):
people that don't think the wayI do, and and we've tend to be
very, very rigid, very set inour beliefs. And I tell people,
you know, where did we learnthat beliefs are more important
than facts? We learn that inchurch. Wow. Where did we learn
that people that have ourbeliefs are good people and

(50:53):
people that don't have ourbeliefs are bad people? We learn
that in church. And so I've, Ihave consciously, in the last
year or so, taken this askingquestions you might be right
into the political realm too.
Then I'll go to breakfast with abunch of guys. There's
conservatives you can be, andthey'll make some really
strident, absolute statement,and I'll say, Why do you say

(51:18):
that? And it's, it's not aoffensive question, and I'm not
trolling them, because, again, Icould change my mind. People in
an adversarial situation orsomething that could be
adversarial, they make itadversarial because they don't
ask questions. They say, Well,let me tell you how it is. And

(51:38):
you know, I've just, I've justnot. I've learned not to do
that. I don't do it politically.
I don't do it spiritually.
But I do think, like I say, thatthere is a natural,
there's a natural way to liveyour life, if you think about
things spiritually the way thatI do. So you know, I I say,
Well, look at I agree with you,it doesn't conform to my

(52:02):
spirituality,but you might have different
spirituality, or you might notcare if your politics conforms
to your spirituality, but I do.
That's, that's the only reasonthat I would, that I would care
about and, you know, I've donethings on my own. You know,
asking questions is the minimumwage, a a higher minimum wage?

(52:24):
Is it good because more poorpeople get more money, or is it
bad because it it hurts smallbusinesses and it crowds out the
profit margin and investor youknow, I can understand both
sides. So I just want tounderstand, I just want to know
the facts. Yeah, and when youlook at it, the answer is, it
depends exactlythat's so good. And, you know,

(52:45):
so often I've I said to myfriends, who are, you know, on
another part of the spectrum, Iunderstand like, I'll start
where we understand, like, we'reboth afraid of something
similar. We both recognize aproblem. Their approach to solve
it is different. But I like tomeet in that middle and say, I
get you. I get what you'reafraid of. I fear it too. You

(53:06):
know, whatever it is,I've even, I've even conceded,
you know, somebody told me, youknow, Barack Obama is the worst
president that ever lived. And Isaid, Well, I don't know. I said
I voted for him once, I votedfor the other guy once. I was a
little disappointed that maybehe didn't do everything that I
thought he could have done orshould have done. But why do you

(53:27):
say he's the worst? I said,Well, he sent all that money to
Iran. I go, Well, I don't knowthe situation as I understand
it. He was sending them backtheir own money. He wasn't
sending my money to Iran, butI'll give it to you. I'm gonna
agree with you, that was aterrible idea. What else did
Barack Obama do? That made himthe worst president that ever

(53:49):
lived, and they didn't haveanything, yeah, and so, you
know, I think they went awayfrom that conversation thinking,
yeah, maybe I, maybe Ioverstayed it a little bit,
because you were, you weren'tconfrontational back see, it's
like a magic bullet, right? Whenyou're just calm and you're, you

(54:09):
know, you really are. You'reinquiring. It's it sets a tone
which I think we are sorelymissing. Well, if there's not
anything else that you want toshare with us, I'll wrap it up
today and say a big thank you toyou, because I think you put
something out in the world thatpeople really need.
Well, thank you. I hope so. Thatwas the that's what I want to

(54:31):
do, and I've enjoyed theconversation. And you're, you're
doing good work here. I mean,it's important that people hear
other people's stories and andmaybe learn some of the lessons
so they don't they don't have tosleep on the concrete floor of a
hospital in Africa too. Toget a little personal, I
feel that is tough. I'm that's atough way to learn. I feel

(54:52):
honored that people share theirstories with me, and I'm really
glad that I'm able to to hearthem, to provide a platform for.
Of them, because it's been awonderful, unexpected part of my
life. I'm a writer, okay, and Ihave no idea why I started this
podcast, but 87 episodes later,I'm really enjoying it. So thank

(55:12):
you for contributing.
Thank you. It's been it's beengreat. I've really enjoyed it.
Me too. Oh,

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Season 5. Episode 8. Larry Jordan: From successful investment banker to spiritual seeker and teacher

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Season 5. Episode 8. Larry Jordan: From successful investment banker to spiritual seeker and teacher

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