May 15, 2021 • 48 mins
Join us today and listen along as we hear from our first podcast guest, John W. McCaskill of History Alive. He is, of course, a historian, but also an educator, speaker, and historical reenactor. He'll be telling us a little about his career and a few of the amazing encounters he's had along the way. We'll hear about the journey that People of Color had in the military leading up to the Tuskegee Airmen and another perspective on this incredible chapter in our history.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
AJ (00:00):
Well, hello again,
Pearl (00:01):
you made it.
It's your favorite podcast?
It's the perfect time of day tolisten.
Let's go.
AJ (00:08):
Well, as always sitting here with me, my favorite wife,
Pearl, Hearst, I'm pretty surethat's the name of
Pearl (00:15):
you couldn't handle sister wives.
Okay.
AJ (00:19):
You, I'm pretty sure that's actually the name of an old
sitcom My favorite wife fromlike the, I think it was black
and white.
It's like same time.
as leave it to Beaver or
Pearl (00:28):
Yeah, that, that sounds accurate.
That is my wonderful husband.
AIJ Hearst.
This is the stories we forgot.
It's your history podcast fornon historians
AJ (00:41):
by not historians,
Pearl (00:42):
Except today we have a special treat for you, which
we're going to get to later inthe episode, we have a real live
historian coming on today.
AJ (00:51):
a real historian
Pearl (00:53):
real legitimate historian.
He did not just Google.
Okay.
AJ (01:06):
Well, it's been a pretty busy week for us.
Pearl (01:09):
Yeah.
We've had an eventful week.
AJ (01:11):
Yeah.
We had a of course mother's day.
Pearl (01:14):
Right.
AJ (01:15):
Which was fun.
some breakfast in bed.
for Pearl and then midweek, wehave had a running surprise
going for our children.
Pearl (01:26):
Well, I just wrote something cool on the calendar
and it's been driving them crazyfor like a month and a half now.
Two months.
AJ (01:35):
It's been a while.
Pearl (01:36):
Yeah.
And
AJ (01:37):
pretty entertaining.
Really?
Pearl (01:39):
Yeah.
So on mother's day we madetie-dye t-shirts for the whole
family.
We went to, went to Michaelsand, incidentally it's really
cheap to buy t-shirts ofMichael's.
They were like three bucks for at-shirt for all the kids.
I mean, individually
AJ (01:55):
don't know about you I don't know, if your kids.
Ruin their t-shirts as quicklyas our kids.
Pearl (02:02):
Probably not.
I think our children are uniquein how fast they can ruin their
clothes.
AJ (02:06):
Maybe.
Pearl (02:06):
No, I'm kidding.
Yeah, so we went to Michael's,we got t-shirts and some tidy
supplies and we tied sixt-shirts and you know, with
varying results, I thinkeveryone was pretty happy with
them.
And then then Wednesday morningwe put all put on our t-shirts
all tie-dye t-shirts and we tookthe kids to a concert, their
(02:31):
very first concert.
So
AJ (02:35):
it was at a drive in theater?
Pearl (02:37):
Yeah, it was a, it's a drive in theater tour.
I don't know.
Who's who's sponsoring it.
The headliner was Toby Mac
AJ (02:45):
Toby Mac.
Pearl (02:46):
Yeah, so our kids really like Toby Mac.
So it was just kind of like,just kind of a fun family way to
break them into going toconcerts.
AJ (02:56):
Yeah.
He's the most frequentlyrequested around here, which is,
you know, he's pretty fun Itmakes you feel hip and cool.
Pearl (03:03):
Yeah.
I mean he put, I mean, it was agreat concert.
because it was a drive intheater to our, we, you know, we
had our assigned parking space,we went and parked.
But it wasn't quite as close asI was hoping.
It was, I actually, the crazything is how early people were
lining up to pull in.
So I was anticipating we weregoing to get a much better spot
than we ended up getting.
AJ (03:22):
yeah, we got there like right when the, before the
Pearl (03:25):
yeah, we got there before the Gates opened, but man, it
was just nuts.
So violet and I actually wentand snuck up closer to the front
so we could like get some ofthat concert, energy, you know,
get a little bit more of aconcert experience
AJ (03:38):
Yeah.
You guys had a pretty good spot.
Pearl (03:40):
yeah, so we got really close and you know, there's like
a full stage and fog machines,light show and.
It was pretty awesome.
There was backup dancers and itwas, yeah, it blew their minds.
Honestly, violet was soimpressed.
Henry and Oliver, of course,Henry and Oliver loved Toby Mac.
(04:00):
They're just singing along toall the songs.
Peter's a little bit like me,but you know, he is fine.
AJ (04:07):
Yeah.
Well, Peter was interested, butit the concert started at like,
Pearl (04:12):
I know well we got in, we got in the doors at about five
30 and then then we, we, weactually all got into the back
of the minivan.
So we had three kids in theback, one in the middle and Asia
and I sat on the other side andwe all watched a movie together.
And then, towards the end of themovie, the first artists came on
(04:34):
and So we stopped it.
We watched that for a littlebit, and then there was the
super long intermission tobasically waiting for it, to get
dark enough for the light showto work, you know?
Yeah.
So, gosh, I don't know what timeToby Mac actually came on, but
it was eight,
AJ (04:51):
at least might've been closer to eight
Pearl (04:53):
Yeah, it was
AJ (04:54):
think the concert ended till after 10.
So Peter
Pearl (04:59):
Peter was done.
Yeah.
AJ (05:00):
Peter's almost six.
So he was toast about midwaythrough the Toby Mac.
here.
He was telling me he wants to gohome.
I'm like,
Pearl (05:08):
There's nothing we can do.
AJ (05:09):
I'm sorry, man.
Pearl (05:10):
Short of an emergency.
We are stuck here.
You
AJ (05:13):
either sit here and watch or you can climb in the back seat
and go to sleep.
So he climbed in the backseatand went to sleep somehow in the
midst of a concert the kid wasout, but yeah, it was pretty
great.
We opened the sunroof of the vanand the boys.
Poked up through the sunroof andsat slash sat up on top of the
(05:33):
roof and could see.
And I just kind of stood in thedoorway up above.
So we had a decent view andyeah, and they had, you know,
the big projector up with Deltkinds of different camera
angles.
It was a good concert.
It was pretty
Pearl (05:47):
far
AJ (05:48):
It was better than I thought it was when we first got there.
And the opening act, it was justsome random guy with his piano.
So there wasn't much going on,but I think it was,
Pearl (06:01):
it was pretty underwhelming for the kids.
We were like, Oh boy, this isnot going to be worth.
AJ (06:07):
Toby Mac came out and he had this great band.
Pearl (06:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
He was playing with thediversity band
AJ (06:14):
diverse.
Pearl (06:15):
they had, they had a full brass section and yeah, all the
artists were just reallyincredible.
So much talent on that stage.
It was just like mind
AJ (06:24):
They were impressive.
Pearl (06:25):
Yeah, great, great.
Musicians.
AJ (06:28):
yeah, It was fun.
Pearl (06:29):
Yeah.
So then violet and I went upand, you know, it's dark and
unlike a normal concert whereyou're like shoulder to shoulder
with people and everyone isgoing nuts.
It's just violent.
Nice standing off to the side,around a bunch of parked cars.
And we're in a little gap.
We snuck into a little gap wherethere wasn't another car park.
Cause it was in front of thekids' play area that was not
(06:51):
being used because it was aconcert, you know?
And so we were just, I mean, itwas kind of like a mosh pit of
one, cause I was determined togive her a full concert
experience and she was just kindof like play Bahamas.
So we.
I know, I know other with likemy tie-dyed shirt, my ripped
jeans just bopping along to themusic.
(07:12):
And I told violet that it's nota real concert, unless you wo
you know, you haven't had theconcert experience if you don't
whoop.
So I think I finally got a smallwoo out of her at the end of the
night.
She was like, whew,
AJ (07:24):
Pilot's a fairly reserved young lady.
So It was a stretch, for her,but she was,
Pearl (07:31):
she loved the concert though.
She thought it was
AJ (07:32):
definitely loved it.
I was doing the kind of the samething early on in the concert.
I was like, I got to try and getthese boys hyped up Cause they
were just kind of sitting therelike, wide-eyed, they weren't
really sure what to expect.
Yeah.
They kind of all get a littlebit shy too.
So I was like, kinda like, I waslike, kinda like tapping them on
the shoulder like clap in andtrying
Pearl (07:52):
Right, right, right.
AJ (07:53):
yell out a little bit and be like, you guys can applaud, you
guys can like, And then halfwaythrough, they were.
Singing along and clapping wayoff B that's just our
Pearl (08:04):
Yeah, it was great.
AJ (08:05):
It was fun.
Pearl (08:06):
Yeah, so we're looking forward to more of those in our
future with older children.
AJ (08:10):
Okay.
Well,
Pearl (08:11):
all right, well we're
AJ (08:12):
enough chit-chat I think we
Pearl (08:13):
get into.
AJ (08:15):
Jump into it.
He's
Pearl (08:16):
presentation.
AJ and Pearl (08:17):
All right.
Well, today with us on thepodcast, we have John w
McCaskill and he is going to besharing.
He's going to be sharing somehistory with us.
So, yeah, we're really excitedto have you, we've been looking
forward to having some guests onour podcasts that are a little
bit more qualified than we are,which is a fairly low bar.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We've, we've set a low bar forourselves.
(08:37):
So we're looking forward tothis.
Thank you so much for your time,John.
John W. McCaskil (08:42):
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
Thank you so much.
AJ and Pearl (08:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
So do you want to just tell us alittle bit about yourself and
yeah.
John W. McCaskil (08:50):
So I am John w McCaskill of John w McCaskill
history alive, where I teach theprinciples of leadership and
teamwork, using history as thevehicle, through which to do it.
History has been my thing sinceeight years old, my report cards
home, you know, John's a goodstudent.
He just talks too much.
(09:10):
So I think I've probably found,you know, my niche, but when
history was being taught, I was,I was eating it up history and
geography absolutely loved it.
And so that's what it's been.
And my undergrad degree is adouble major in history and
music, which really works out.
(09:33):
Let me tell you, I mean, youknow, history reflects the music
and music reflects
AJ and Pearl (09:37):
Yeah, it really does.
John W. McCaskil (09:39):
So, and then my most valuable lesson in
undergrad was, you know, don'tspend a dime on grad school
until you know exactly what youwant to do.
And I realized that I couldmajor in military history and I
ended up doing that andabsolutely loved it.
(10:00):
But by the time that wholeacademic process was over, I had
completed three master'sprograms.
So
AJ and Pearl (10:07):
Wow.
John W. McCaskil (10:07):
I didn't think that when I, it was going to be
like that when I first started,but eventually that's, that's
what it was.
And, and I, and I, you know,I've enjoyed the ride.
I mean, Oh my goodness, thepeople I've met the
opportunities I've had becauseof it, you know, my gift, it
certainly made room for me andit is still making room for me.
So that's been exciting, thisTuskegee airman thing.
(10:31):
It's funny because in graduateschool, all of my papers started
to write or lean towardsAfrican-American and us military
history that I, at the time, itwas not a conscious decision.
It was just looking to see,okay, what else needs to be, you
know, brought to the, to theforefront that I wasn't seeing.
And so that's how that started.
(10:53):
And interestingly, you know,there are a whole lot of things
that were coming together.
During the time I was working ata company called tour immobile,
which worked, which was here inArlington national cemetery in
Morrison DC.
Matter of fact, T-Mobile wasaround.
I think since the sixties, itjust went out of business.
They'd be like 10 years ago, butyou know, did tours through the
(11:16):
cemetery.
And some of my colleagues, Imean, this, this job was
supposed to be my holdover jobuntil my good government job
came through.
And yeah, cool.
AJ and Pearl (11:25):
Yeah.
John W. McCaskil (11:26):
Some of us were really competing in a
friendly type of way to outdoeach other and it was a friendly
competition.
And so after work, I'd come homeand I'd be studying for more
stuff.
Right?
Well, these groups called hadspecials if somebody rented out
a tram and it's those openwindow trams, it would.
(11:49):
And so one day world war twoveterans were coming through
from a group called honorflight.
Which is an organization thatbrings world war II veterans to
world war II since 2004.
And now we're transitioning toKorea, Vietnam, and wounded
veterans.
But I had a group one day andlike I said, there was one part
(12:12):
of my tour.
I'd go pass.
We'd go pass minimum.
No, David's his headstone andBenjamin O.
Davis West point graduate wascommander of the three of the
99.
Plus your squadron eventuallythree 32nd fighter group, right?
And I mentioned that and I wasfeeling good about myself.
We got to the two of the unknownsoldier for the changing of the
guard.
We got the veterans off.
(12:32):
I took this photograph next tothe trim, and I'm looking pretty
tough with all these world wartwo veterans.
So we get them all off, butthere's one who's sitting in the
tram and he's in the picture,right?
He starts, you know, on the sideof the trip, son, come here,
come here, come here.
I didn't know what was going on.
So I rushed over to him and whatthese hands that had seen over
(12:54):
90 years of life, he had thiscrumbled up piece of paper in
his hand.
He says there was the 99 to 100,301st diminish, the second, was
the 32nd fighter group.
People don't get the story.
Right.
They just don't get the story.
Right.
Let me tell you, his son came ona trip, dad, dad, you got to
(13:14):
come down, you got to come down.
Two of the paramedics said,let's take his vitals.
I didn't know what was going on,but I felt like I had been
violated.
So I walked off, went to thebathroom, get myself together
and decided I wasn't going to gosee the changing of the guard.
Well guess who is sitting on thebench between me and the
changing of the guard?
(13:35):
Yes.
Tuskegee airmen, LorenzoHolloway.
And I said to myself, well, son,just get yourself together is
the second way.
Just take it like a man.
And this time in a calm voice,he says, son, Listen, I
apologize.
I should've never gotten upset.
(13:55):
I, I politely stopped them andsaid, sir, you do not have to
apologize.
I know you would try to get meright.
And you know, in life, sometimeswe come to those crossroads
where we have to decide, are wegoing to do this thing or we're
going to choose to do somethingelse.
And sometimes we choose to do tosomething else.
But on that day I decided I wasgoing to learn this Tuskegee
(14:17):
airman story.
And it has made all thedifference now.
So we're going to talk about theTuskegee airman this morning.
The thing is I'm not going togive you the entire presentation
that I do.
But I will mention that therewere three elements that help to
usher in black combat pilots.
There was an African-Americantradition of defending the
(14:40):
nation.
There was an African-Americanenthusiasm towards aviation, and
that was really for everybody inthe country, during the 1930s
and forties.
And then there was a resurgenceof the modern day civil rights
movement.
So all of that stuff starts tohappen.
Now, let me just say,African-Americans have
definitive this country sincethe revolutionary war.
AJ and Pearl (15:01):
right.
Yeah.
John W. McCaskil (15:02):
But prior to the civil war, their
participation was illegal.
And there were a lot of reasonsfor that, including, you know,
the fact that people weren't toocomfortable with, with black
folk who may have formerly beenenslave with guns in their
hands.
So they didn't have a problemputting them in the Navy, but
they did not want to put them inthe army.
(15:25):
But many times when the countryneeded them, those individuals
would defend the country withthe hope that maybe they would
be freed.
And there were some agreementsmade in the revolutionary war.
Like, look, you may be enslavednow, but if you fight, you'll
get your freedom.
Some of them probably did.
I know of at least one who didnot, we roll up to the American
civil war.
(15:46):
There were two confiscationscondensation acts.
The first was in 61.
The first, the second was in 62.
And it pretty much said that youcould utilize, you know, blacks,
but it didn't really say how.
It wasn't until Lincoln'semancipation proclamation that
said, Oh, okay.
Anybody who wants to join anyblack and wants to join a union
(16:06):
army Navy will be allowed to doso.
Over 209,000 individualsparticipate over 38,000 of them
died as a result of theirparticipation.
They then authorize blacks inthe military because prior to
that, they weren't authorized.
Now it's on a segregated basis,but they are authorized.
Right.
(16:27):
And they end up, they startedwith six units, but it ended up
with, for the 24th and 25thinfantry regiments and the ninth
and 10th cavalry.
We know the latter two asBuffalo soldiers, right.
Yeah, well, last we continue tofight in throughout the Wars
world war one, there were twoblack infantry units of the 92nd
(16:47):
and the 93rd, both of those wereblack.
They went overseas in 90 secondsunder the front, the, the us
flag 93rd flew under the Frenchflag.
But I know I didn't, I'm justtrying to build a foundation
that will begin to Tuskegee
AJ and Pearl (17:01):
Yeah.
That's fascinating.
John W. McCaskil (17:02):
at the well, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So that's what happens.
What's interesting is the 93rdgets a bunch of awards from
France, including the cross,right.
Which is their military honor,the 92nd.
Doesn't really get that.
And remember they fought underthe U S flag.
And so, you know, there arefeeling a certain way and have
(17:25):
certain prejudices that they'realready thinking about these
individuals, right?
So.
After world war one, there was a1925 report on the use of Negro
man power during war time.
And here were the conclusionsthat they came to.
The blacks were lazy.
Leaderless did not participatein the government.
(17:46):
They were superstitious.
They were afraid of the dark.
They were admitted, leadinferior and mentality compared
to the white man.
And they were inherently weak incharacter than the white man.
Now this was a 1925 report.
You can go to Carlisle now andpull up.
You probably can still pull itup online.
AJ and Pearl (18:07):
Yeah.
John W. McCaskil (18:08):
So that is the lens through which the army is
looking at prior to world wartwo.
Now, as I told you, there was aearly black aviators who, who
who were flying Chicago was sortof like the, the capital of
black aviation.
But, you know, Chicago has got,if he, whether, if you've ever
(18:31):
flown modern day industry, manytimes be been in the old and
better because of weather.
Right?
So that's one of the reasons whythey want to look for someplace
in the South, where they could,where they could do this thing.
There was a program entitled thecivilian pilot training program.
It was in all universities.
This starts around 1938, 1939.
(18:53):
Why?
Because the United Statessuspects, they will probably be
in this war.
And if it happens, you betterhave a cache of pilots from
which you can choose.
AJ and Pearl (19:02):
Right.
John W. McCaskil (19:03):
Six of those universities were black,
including how university, NorthCarolina, a and T Hampton.
And of course this place down inAlabama called Tuskegee.
No, there was a man by the nameof geo Washington.
He was, he was like thevisionary for all of this.
There were two years of thistype of flying.
There was an elementary and asecondary, and he started to put
(19:26):
those together so much so thatafter these other six
universities completed their,their elementary training.
So like, okay, where are wegoing to send these kids to, you
know, there's no place for themto go.
Well, geo Washington had put thesecondary in place down in
Alabama and that's where theyended up.
So Tuskegee had a track recordof putting out black pilots,
(19:49):
which is being successful intheir training program.
And so, as I said, it wasoffered to college students in a
lot of people took advantage ofthat.
Now.
Not going to get into it, butthe emergence of the neighbor of
the civil rights movement, eightPhilip Randolph, who was the
individual who was responsiblefor the March on Washington in
1963, was leading a March in1941.
(20:10):
And it was for equal opportunityin the war industry.
And in the military andpresident Roosevelt's like,
look, you don't have to Marchfor that.
I can sign legislation.
And that ended up happening.
And so people were able to worknow, what did that date, how
willing people were to allowthat to happen?
There's a different story, butthat starts to happen.
(20:31):
Right?
And then they even talked aboutbringing blacks as pilots.
The first was Yancy Williamsfrom Howard university and he
said, Oh yeah, we sit in anothertable.
We don't have a facility foryou, which was the case at the
time.
All right.
So I think eventually he wouldbecome a Tuskegee airman a
couple of years later,
AJ and Pearl (20:48):
Yeah, I think so.
John W. McCaskil (20:49):
So remember the military between world war
one and world war II, we'remaking leaps and bounds.
You know, you're going fromdopamine fabric, right?
Planes to, you know, modelplanes that go a lot faster.
AJ and Pearl (21:02):
Yeah
John W. McCaskil (21:03):
We have to mention Colonel Benjamin O.
Davis Jr.
Who was a West point, graduategraduated in 1936.
When he came out, he graduatedhigh enough to choose whatever
occupation he wanted.
They said, look, he says hewanted to do a base and like,
look, black folk don't fly.
You can either go into infantryor the cavalry.
So I think he ended up, he wentinto infantry, but when the
(21:25):
opportunity came up, let me tellyou he was not cramming the
night before saying, Oh man, letme, let me see if I can get this
job.
No, he was preparing for aposition that at the time he
could not see
AJ and Pearl (21:40):
Gotcha.
John W. McCaskil (21:41):
data again.
He was preparing for anopportunity before the
opportunity got dead.
And when it came, he juststepped right into it.
What, that's good for me rightnow.
Okay.
So, so pilot training was thesame for everyone, right?
If you read the United Statesarmy air force handbook would be
(22:02):
United States army of what it isfast.
It breaks down everything thatthey went through and how they
were putting stuff together.
There were normally four.
There were a few levels oftraining, flight, pre flight
training primaries.
When you were flying a biplanebasic when you flew the BT 13, I
think BT 11 and then advancedwas the 86 or the 80 10,
(22:26):
depending on whether or notyou're going to be a single
engine pilot or a twin enginepilot.
And then of course yourtransition flying would be
whatever aircraft you were goingto use.
That's what you were going tofly.
And so those guys had to gothrough that.
Now the first group of Tuskegeeairman that everyone is aware of
is the 99 pursuit squadron.
(22:47):
The first five individuals tograduate graduated in March of
1942.
I believe 40.
Yes.
And Colonel well, captainBenjamin knew, I think he was
still a captain that told him,cause he ended up going from
captain to major Lieutenantgirl, girl Benjamin O.
Davis, who was the West pointgraduate.
And so those guys graduated, butthey stuck around for a long
(23:07):
time because nobody really knewwhat to do with them.
They eventually gets shippedoverseas in 1943 and they're
fighting in North Africa.
But remember the, the militarywas segregated, so the basis
could be segregated, but it'slike, where are we going to put
these guys?
They were attached to otherfighter groups, what they were
(23:30):
pretty much by themselves.
And they were at a lot ofdifferent places in North Africa
and then ended up going to Italyand they were flying over there.
Meanwhile, there was anothergroup that three 32nd, which
consisted of the 100, 301st302nd fighter squadrons.
And so they ended up trainingand then they go over sleek
season.
Once they get overseas to Ramatele.
(23:52):
The 99 joins them.
So they ended up having fourfighter squadrons in a group,
normally is three spidersquatters that make up a group.
In this instance, there werefour.
And so that's what they did.
And so those guys, at one point,they were trying to set those
guys down and said, look, youguys are not doing anything.
You're not up to par yada, yada,yada.
(24:12):
And you know, David's had tocome back home and fight for
them and said, look, the reasonwhy we're not shooting down
enemy aircraft is because ourmissions are not putting us
there.
And so then they weretransferred to escort duty.
Now, what does escort duty mean?
We didn't have a chance to gothrough the theories of
strategic bombing, butessentially it's this, you send
(24:36):
a bunch of bombers to bomb youropponents industry railway
system.
Deppos whatever.
Right.
And that would their war effort.
But you send those bombers out.
You know, the B 17 had the Gversion had about 13 machine
guns and they thought that ifthey flew tightly together in
(24:58):
these closed box formations,that they could protect
themselves.
Well, it did serve, but youknow, those German fighters are
learning how to fight too.
And if you attack them early onand you start to take out the
first ones, then the formationsare spread out.
And once that happens, it's justlike the wild kingdom.
You get an animal on his own.
(25:19):
And you know, it was lines ofbounce on him.
AJ and Pearl (25:21):
Yeah.
John W. McCaskil (25:22):
So what you needed was fighters that could
escort them.
But the fighters at the time,the P 40 sevens only had a range
of about 350 miles.
And so the Germans would justwait until the fight is turned
around and they pass on thebumps.
AJ and Pearl (25:37):
Yeah.
John W. McCaskil (25:39):
I forget the numbers.
Of casualties.
But I think if I'm, if I amcorrect, the army air Corps air
force suffered the mostcasualties in any other unit.
And let me tell you, when itfirst started, you only had to
fly 25 missions.
The chances of you flying 25missions on touch was about 20%.
AJ and Pearl (26:02):
Super dangerous.
Wow.
John W. McCaskil (26:04):
my goodness.
Let me tell you, I don't know ifyou saw Ken burns is the war.
It was a man in episode two bythe name of Earl Burke.
And he was telling his story andI'm thinking this guy is
plagiarizing me because that'sthe exact same story.
I would tell him the Arlington.
Then the light came on, thelight came on.
I realized, wait a minute.
I'm not he's he's not telling mystory.
(26:24):
I had been telling his story
AJ and Pearl (26:26):
Right.
John W. McCaskil (26:27):
I called.
Let me tell you, I called out toSacramento because I found Earl
Burke on the internet calledhim, ended up talking to his
wife.
And she talked to me as if she'dbeen knowing me for years.
You know, I was one of the kidswho grew up in the neighborhood
and we talked for about 20, 25minutes.
I asked her about Mr.
Burke.
She says, Oh, he's in the hot.
And I'm like, what?
What's wrong?
Is he okay?
He's okay.
(26:47):
She said, Oh, he just fell, hurthis back.
Well, he'll be all right.
I say, well, ma'am just tellhim, I called and wanted to say,
thank you for his service.
And I said, well, wait a minute.
Can I write a letter?
She says, Oh, absolutely.
So I wrote him a letter prettymuch told him the whole story
I'm telling you.
And then thank you for service.
Now that was around November,October, November of Oh eight or
something like that.
I believe Memorial day of 2009.
(27:10):
I worked up the courage to callagain, this time she answered
the phone in a man as well, butthis time I got relationship
with Ms.
Burke.
So I talked to her first and sheremembered me and I said, yeah,
Ms.
Burke, you know, I'd like totalk to Ms.
Burke.
And she paused and said passed.
And I'm the same way.
I'm like, Oh my goodness.
You know, and I'm sort ofgetting a little broken up on
(27:32):
the phone, you know, for me.
And I've never met, which Icouldn't at the time, understand
why?
And I said, ma'am, I just wantto thank you for sharing him
with the world.
I mean, I ain't know what elseto say,
AJ and Pearl (27:42):
Yeah, that's tough.
John W. McCaskil (27:44):
but here's what she told me.
She said, he got your letternow, you know how we, we want to
thank somebody for something andwe keep putting it off.
And then for one day we foreverlose that opportunity.
I'm so glad he got the letter.
And after I got off the phone, Ilooked it up on the internet.
(28:05):
Turned out.
He probably passed within twoweeks of my first head.
I postpone that letter for aweek.
He wouldn't have gotten it.
AJ and Pearl (28:17):
yeah.
John W. McCaskil (28:18):
And so I'm so glad I responded correctly at
that moment.
But I say that to say, he talkedabout going to shrine for which
he went to the second rate onSchweinfurth, which is just as
horrendous as the first.
They went to for the August of43, lost 60 bombers and went
back in October 17 to sew andlost an additional 60.
(28:41):
And he was on one of thosemissions.
And so that's what those thesefighters would do.
They would protect these guyswhen the Tuskegee airmen started
to protect fighters of the 15thday of force, which was coming
out of Italy, their numberscompared to the other fighter,
squadrons were better.
You got it.
You know, you, you have tocompare apples with apples.
(29:03):
If they were in eighth airforce, their numbers, might've
been different since the eighthsustained so many more
casualties, but you know,there's a myth that they didn't
use any bombers.
I think they didn't losebombers.
And even they said, you know,now losing them the flag, right?
It's almost like you shootfireworks up in the air, except
you've got hundreds of pieces ofmetal, just the air.
(29:25):
Well, you can't stop that.
But when you're talking aboutlosing to fighters, you're
talking about that were actuallyshut down and they lost less
than 25.
Well, over 205 escort missions.
If I'm flying, I'll take thosechances.
AJ and Pearl (29:41):
205.
You said total missions.
John W. McCaskil (29:43):
escort me escort missions.
Now they flew other missions,other sororities, but in terms
of escort, 205, I just met a guyon Facebook.
His dad flew with the particularorganization.
You says, I think my dad made aphone with the Tuskegee and, but
I don't know for sure.
And I said, well, give me, hesent me his dad's law book
AJ and Pearl (30:05):
Oh, wow.
John W. McCaskil (30:06):
to compare that to the missions.
And I was able to send back tohim.
I think his dad was escortedmaybe like five or six times by
the Tuskegee airman.
And he didn't know what missionsthey were, but then, you know,
so I was able to get that tohim.
AJ and Pearl (30:18):
Cool.
John W. McCaskil (30:19):
So, you know, 205 escort missions and only
losing 27 that's that's not badat all.
I would take
AJ and Pearl (30:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'd like to them to be myescort, I guess
John W. McCaskil (30:31):
Oh my goodness.
Well, needless to say that,eventually people started to re
request them.
AJ and Pearl (30:37):
that's amazing.
John W. McCaskil (30:39):
If you want a team to be great, it just means
one thing, he put the bestplayers on the field and you
don't look like,
AJ and Pearl (30:44):
Yeah.
your life's on the line, youwant the best,
John W. McCaskil (30:48):
Oh my goodness, you better believe it.
You don't.
If you got to have heart surgerynext week, the only question you
got is this the best guy that'sall right.
So those guys flew over there.
They did a magnificent job whilethey were over there.
Now there was another group ofindividuals, Tuskegee airman,
(31:08):
who were flying over trainingfor the four 77th bombardment
group.
Now, these guys were training tofly twin engine Mitchell's and
they were going to go into thePacific.
There were four bomber squadron,six 16, six 17, six, 18, six 19.
And those guys were going to gointo the Pacific.
(31:29):
The war ended prior to.
But those guys have a differentclaim to fame.
Let me just say, when they firstauthorized a 99% squadron, they
didn't have pilots, but they hadground personnel, which is why
anybody related to the Tuskegeeexperience is considered a
Tuskegee airman members,mechanics.
(31:52):
You brought in the mailroom,right?
AJ and Pearl (31:55):
right.
John W. McCaskil (31:56):
But when you sit them to Chanute feel in
Illinois, even though everythingwas supposed to be segregated,
their training classes were not,
AJ and Pearl (32:06):
Oh,
John W. McCaskil (32:08):
they may have had to sleep in separate
quarters or whatever, but thetraining classes, those guys,
guys, we're integrated, I'vetalked to general Charles McGee
and I asked him about thehospitals.
He told me that we're segregatedmilitary facilities on the basis
segregated, but if you needed togo to the hospital, They weren't
(32:29):
segregated.
It was not cost effective, youknow?
AJ and Pearl (32:34):
yeah.
John W. McCaskil (32:35):
So, so these, so it's not, and there was
something, Oh, general McGeetold me that when they first
started, there were two redcross girls on the base and they
were Caucasian.
AJ and Pearl (32:48):
Which is
John W. McCaskil (32:48):
that, you know, and so, so these guys have
the four 77, they were down atFreeman fields is in Indiana.
They decided they wanted to gointo the officer's club, which
by regulations they were allowedto do.
But the commander Colonel Selwaysaid, well, I'm classifying you
(33:12):
as trainees that you can't gointo, what do these guys go in
there?
And there are a few things thathappened.
I think the first time 61 ofthose guys have court martial or
they're arrested.
Right.
And eventually they want theseofficers to sign documents
saying that they will adhere tosegregation on the base, even
though it's going againstregulations.
So they don't sign.
(33:33):
So they ended up arresting like101 of these guys, and they were
first come confined to theirbarracks.
And then they were trained to,Oh Lord, where did they go?
They went somewhere else.
They took them somewhere else.
It's a court martial those guys,and they were actually held
under arrest.
These are American officers whocould very well have gone
(33:54):
overseas and lost their lives,fighting for freedom and
democracy.
And so that's what those guyswere for now because of the
black press stories start to getout.
And eventually those guys, Ithink in the, in the final
analysis, one person was finedfor striking an officer or
something like that.
Push his way through.
And he considered that strikingan officer.
(34:16):
But, but those guys, we don'thear much about them, but they
are considered to be Tuskegeeairman as well.
AJ and Pearl (34:23):
Yeah.
John W. McCaskil (34:25):
too long ago, they were awarded the
congressional gold medal fortheir services is Tuskegee
airman.
I've had the opportunity to meetquite a few of these Tuskegee
airman.
I've done on my website.
I've got.
I think I've got some films,there's some films running
around, out there.
And I've talked about myexperiences with all of them.
(34:45):
In 2014, there was an honorflight that came from Savannah,
Georgia, and they bused all theway here.
There was most of the time theseguys are wearing jackets and
hats and everything.
You know, there was oneAfrican-American woman, man.
She looked like she dressed forchurch.
She got on a ball cap, but she'sgot on, you know, closed license
(35:07):
going to church.
And I went over to her and Ihugged her.
I said, man, thank you so much.
I've walked through a lot ofdoors of opportunity.
I said, you have so many of uskicked them off the hinges.
She says, son, you're welcome.
I go my way.
She goes her about 20 minuteslater, I see her again in the
middle of the Plaza.
This time I walk up to her say,ma'am I got to hug you to Simon.
I note down to her and I huggedher and thanked her again.
(35:27):
And somebody took that photo.
That photograph was takenseconds before what I'm about to
tell you.
She says to me, can you take meover to the woman's bar relief?
I said, yes, ma'am.
Now you've been in the world warII Memorial.
You know, the 12 bar leads oneach side, 12 from the Pacific
theater, 12 Right And I take herover and I'm sitting here and
(35:50):
she's sitting there in front ofthe bar, relieve of women's
servant.
And she starts telling me whereshe served.
And then she says in the lasttwo years, I was in the 99th,
under boo Davis.
And then my mind started goingrapid fire.
I felt like I was on a game showwith five seconds answer and I
(36:12):
didn't have any answer.
And I'm like 99% squatters.
And she's like, yeah.
I said, Benjamin O.
Davis junior.
She says, yeah.
I said, D 99.
She says, yeah, deepen.
I said, ma'am, do you have anypapers to corroborate your
story?
She says, yeah, my dischargepapers.
I said, ma'am do you know,you're a Tuskegee airman.
She looked at me says, no, Idon't think so.
I'm like, no, ma'am you are, youare.
It's not just a pilot, just asexcited as I am.
(36:34):
That is how I was then.
And I said, man, we gotta getyou your red jacket.
My goodness.
And we start dogging.
And in a matter of momentsaround the Memorial, there was a
Tuskegee airman there who was afemale.
Now people probably what neverheard of that before.
And the last thing she told mebefore she got on the bus, she
says on what my red jacket.
(36:54):
So there was an assumed to bechief petty officers there.
A few of them were women, threeof the four women that I knew
were there, came over to thebus.
They said, we heard this aTuskegee airman on, can we go
and meet her?
We didn't say yes.
We didn't say no.
We just pointed to the stairs.
Those ladies went up and they,they greeted Ms.
Amelia Jones.
(37:15):
And I thought to myself, it wasonly fitting for that to happen.
I said, because these women whowere about to become chief petty
officers in the United States,Navy were standing on the
shoulders of missing mule yard.
Jones
AJ and Pearl (37:29):
That's amazing.
John W. McCaskil (37:30):
went their own way.
Six weeks later, I flew down toSavannah, Georgia, and miss
Amelia was inducted into theTuskegee airmen in
AJ and Pearl (37:40):
Wow.
John W. McCaskil (37:41):
And she got her red
AJ and Pearl (37:43):
That's awesome.
John W. McCaskil (37:44):
No, but story.
And over a few months later, wemade some more calls.
I went back down to Savannah inApril of 2015, and she was
awarded the congressional goldmedal for her work or service as
a Tuskegee and my goods.
I mean, there's a lot I couldsay about that story, but I will
(38:06):
end it by saying one year, twoweeks after I met her and she
was in hospice when we met, shewasn't supposed to make the
trip.
She had pneumonia.
She was released the day beforeto come.
AJ and Pearl (38:19):
Wow,
John W. McCaskil (38:20):
And there were a lot of other organizations
involved in the process thathad, they not put their piece of
the puzzle on the table.
This would not have happened
AJ and Pearl (38:28):
right?
Yeah.
John W. McCaskil (38:30):
one year, two weeks after I met her, miss
Amelia was cleared for her finalflight, but for one year she was
to ski a
AJ and Pearl (38:40):
That's amazing.
What a great
John W. McCaskil (38:43):
why is all of this.
Well, listen, there's so manyother stories you don't have
time to get into them.
Oh my goodness.
But why is this story importantthat the Carnegie wasn't the
founder of what we know today isAfrican-American history month
says that if you do not seeyourself in history, you will be
relegated to a place ofnegligent ability.
And then you will be on theverge of extermination.
(39:05):
I have dealt with students for along time.
I have dealt with black studentsfor a long time.
And when you ask them, you know,what do you know about a
particular individual or blackhistory?
And their, their reference pointis slavery.
AJ and Pearl (39:20):
right.
John W. McCaskil (39:21):
is a problem.
AJ and Pearl (39:23):
Yeah.
John W. McCaskil (39:24):
When they see people look like them, you know,
and I'm going to tell you, andit doesn't matter.
Listen, the only thing thatmatters is putting the best
people on the field.
That's it?
Well, you see people look likeyou'd inspire to, Hey, maybe I
can do this as well.
And so that's why that's just apart of the reason why we tell
the story.
I mean, there's so manyleadership and teamwork
(39:47):
principles that we could, we canglean from this story and many
others,
AJ and Pearl (39:51):
Yeah.
John W. McCaskil (39:51):
but for a while.
And and I still love doing it.
You can tell a matter of fact, Ido world war II reenacting,
yeah, I get the opportunity todo that.
And so, we get to tell the storyover and over and over again,
but yeah, that's it that's
AJ and Pearl (40:04):
Oh, man.
Thank you so much for sharing.
John W. McCaskil (40:07):
Oh, sure.
Thanks for having me.
AJ and Pearl (40:09):
Yeah.
So, just really quick, how canpeople get ahold of you and what
would you like?
People to, I guess, what kind ofa follow-up process would you
like to see?
John W. McCaskil (40:19):
Oh my goodness.
So as I said, you know, I.
I present teaching the history,teaching the principles of
leadership and teamwork, usinghistory as the vehicle, through
which to do it.
I can be found on my website.
If you just Google John wMcCaskill history, alive
Instagram page, I have aFacebook page, I've got a
website and I'm, and I've got aYouTube channel.
(40:41):
And, you know, I just, I hadbeen filming before, but this
past year, I really learned howto do film editing and there
various topics of history that Ihad that I'll treat.
And I've done that in a lot ofwhat we've talked about is on
there.
But you know, what I would, Iwould like to see is, you know,
that we would train up this nextgeneration to have character,
(41:03):
know, doing the right thing.
No, one's looking to becompetent in whatever they
choose to do and have a sense ofcomradery.
You know, it's one thing forthem to be great, but they, they
must inspire people around themto be great.
You know, you want a team to begreat.
You got to get better players.
That's it.
No.
And so that's what we're lookingto do to help train a better
players.
AJ and Pearl (41:24):
amazing.
Yeah.
Well, we're going to link to allof that all of your pages on our
social media and that's going toalso be in the show notes when
the podcast goes out, thispodcast is going to go up
probably end of the week, end ofthis week.
Yeah.
So Friday or Saturday of thisweek.
And yeah, I mean, I just, Ican't thank you enough.
This is.
(41:45):
An incredible treat for us totalk to a real historian.
Yeah.
We just raised the, we justraised the level of historical
knowledge on our podcast byleaps and bounds.
So thank you so much.
John W. McCaskil (41:56):
no AGA girl, thank you so much for having me.
AJ and Pearl (41:59):
Hey, before you go, I have, I have one quick
question specific to what youwere talking about and forgive
my ignorance, but what is thisred jacket that you're talking
about?
John W. McCaskil (42:09):
so the Tuskegee airmen were known as
red tails, right?
And that term red tails isexclusively for those who went
overseas.
So you got some Tuskegee airman,you know, the bomber pilots are
not considered red tails, butred is a significant color for
this unit.
They would paint their tailsred.
(42:30):
So if you were, you know, in abomber stream and you're looking
out and you see a an airplane isflying parallel with you, cause
you didn't want to flyperpendicular.
Cause you know, you might betrying to get to them.
They don't know where the netyou've really a photo shoot at
AJ and Pearl (42:44):
Right.
John W. McCaskil (42:45):
had to keep your profile.
You could look at the tail.
Some of the tails wouldcheckerboards.
Some of them were yellow, someof them were red, but that's how
you can identify whichfrightened group it was.
And so.
Red is a significant number.
The jacket, the blazer that theywear when they go to their
meetings is red.
I think that's the case for allof them, except for the Detroit
(43:06):
chapter, which is the firstthere's this blue, but that's
where the red jacket comes
AJ and Pearl (43:11):
Gotcha.
Gotcha.
Yeah, boy, what a fantasticstory.
And yeah, I mean so many lessonsof leadership and teamwork that
can be gleaned.
So thank you so much for all thework that you do and thank you
for coming on our podcast andsharing with us.
John W. McCaskil (43:26):
Oh, thank you, AGI.
I appreciate it, bro.
Thank you so much for having me.
Pearl (43:30):
Well, that was amazing.
I
AJ (43:33):
so amazing.
Pearl (43:34):
I learned so much, I was especially amazed by the story
about, Amelia Jones.
AJ (43:41):
Wasn't that?
Wasn't that great.
Pearl (43:43):
was crazy.
I actually looked up EmiliaJones.
You can look up just Google hername.
You can see pictures of her.
You can read more about herstory and yeah, just, just an
incredible life.
And what, what a trailblazer.
I mean, everyone, all of themembers of the Tuskegee airmen
(44:04):
were.
Incredible trailblazers, but
AJ (44:06):
Yeah.
Well, the fun thing about herwas she was a trailblazer in
Pearl (44:10):
and she didn't know it.
AJ (44:11):
Like she didn't even know it, you know, and I that's
always, that's always amazing.
Pearl (44:16):
didn't know the, the exact role that she had played.
I guess she, she knew the role.
She just didn't understand thecontext of her role.
AJ (44:25):
Yeah.
I think when someone is doingsomething and you hear this all
the time where people are I'mnot a hero and you're like, no,
truly you are You just need tozoom out of your own life and
look at it in the context.
But I think oftentimes that'swhat makes true heroes and true
pioneers and trailblazersthey're kind of just doing what
they know they need to be doing.
(44:47):
And history can look back onthem and say, That was a turning
point,
Pearl (44:52):
right?
AJ (44:53):
an amazing thing That was done.
Pearl (44:54):
was a
AJ (44:55):
And that's
Pearl (44:55):
step forward.
AJ (44:57):
Isn't that the whole point of our podcast is we're trying
to just look back and point tosome of the people who were
overlooked and
Pearl (45:05):
and it's just, it's just so important to have perspective
when you look at your presentlife and if your perspective on
your present life is only basedon what you know, and see and
doesn't have any of historybehind it.
You're just missing out on somuch when you do that.
And, that's how history getsrewritten and that's how history
(45:27):
gets forgotten.
AJ (45:28):
Yeah.
So true.
so thank you so, so much, John,for bringing some perspective
and some context to us beyondjust some random Google
searches.
Pearl (45:39):
Yeah,
AJ (45:40):
So guys, please uh check out some of the resources for John w
McCaskill we'll have.
Pearl (45:47):
Yeah.
We're going to have all thoselinks up on our Instagram,
Facebook and Twitter, as well asin the show notes.
And,
AJ (45:54):
and let us know if you have any questions for him?
We would love to have John.
Pearl (45:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
I would recommend just go andfollow him on some of those
social media platforms.
He's always posting really greatcontent.
Super fascinating.
And it's just kind of a fun way.
I mean, I, I'm following a lotof this stuff in my social media
and it's a really fun way tojust kind of, see neat stories
come through your feed.
You know, you don't need towatch another tasty video or see
(46:19):
what someone ate for lunch andwhat the cat is doing.
You
AJ (46:21):
Right?
Well, and maybe step away fromsome of the current events that
we have very little perspectiveon, and it just floods our
newsfeeds and.
Look look, look up at someinspiring stories from history.
Pearl (46:36):
Yeah.
So, today we're actuallywrapping up the last, the last
episode of season one.
So this is our 20th episode andwe're going to take six weeks
off and just do some summertimevacation stuff.
And season two is going to startup in July.
So we'll see you then we'rehoping to have some more guests
(46:57):
in season two.
Some more fascinating stories inseason two,
AJ (47:01):
some more real historians,
Pearl (47:03):
maybe some more real historians in season two.
AJ (47:05):
we'll even get John back
Pearl (47:07):
Yeah.
So we're looking forward toseeing you back here in July,
but in the meantime go aheadand.
Keep an eye out for awesomestories and send them our way
and definitely check outeverything that we send that we
post for John w McCaskillhistory alive.
And that way you can kind offind out more about his life and
(47:29):
his journey to becoming ahistorian and what kind of makes
him tick.
AJ (47:35):
Yeah.
All right.
Thank you so much for listening.
We love to know what you think.
Feel free to subscribe, likerate review, and you can also
visit our website at thestories.
We forgot.com
Pearl (47:51):
and share it with your mom.
Bye.
AJ (47:54):
Yeah.
Well, hello again,
Pearl (00:01):
you made it.
It's your favorite podcast?
It's the perfect time of day tolisten.
Let's go.
AJ (00:08):
Well, as always sitting here with me, my favorite wife,
Pearl, Hearst, I'm pretty surethat's the name of
Pearl (00:15):
you couldn't handle sister wives.
Okay.
AJ (00:19):
You, I'm pretty sure that's actually the name of an old
sitcom My favorite wife fromlike the, I think it was black
and white.
It's like same time.
as leave it to Beaver or
Pearl (00:28):
Yeah, that, that sounds accurate.
That is my wonderful husband.
AIJ Hearst.
This is the stories we forgot.
It's your history podcast fornon historians
AJ (00:41):
by not historians,
Pearl (00:42):
Except today we have a special treat for you, which
we're going to get to later inthe episode, we have a real live
historian coming on today.
AJ (00:51):
a real historian
Pearl (00:53):
real legitimate historian.
He did not just Google.
Okay.
AJ (01:06):
Well, it's been a pretty busy week for us.
Pearl (01:09):
Yeah.
We've had an eventful week.
AJ (01:11):
Yeah.
We had a of course mother's day.
Pearl (01:14):
Right.
AJ (01:15):
Which was fun.
some breakfast in bed.
for Pearl and then midweek, wehave had a running surprise
going for our children.
Pearl (01:26):
Well, I just wrote something cool on the calendar
and it's been driving them crazyfor like a month and a half now.
Two months.
AJ (01:35):
It's been a while.
Pearl (01:36):
Yeah.
And
AJ (01:37):
pretty entertaining.
Really?
Pearl (01:39):
Yeah.
So on mother's day we madetie-dye t-shirts for the whole
family.
We went to, went to Michaelsand, incidentally it's really
cheap to buy t-shirts ofMichael's.
They were like three bucks for at-shirt for all the kids.
I mean, individually
AJ (01:55):
don't know about you I don't know, if your kids.
Ruin their t-shirts as quicklyas our kids.
Pearl (02:02):
Probably not.
I think our children are uniquein how fast they can ruin their
clothes.
AJ (02:06):
Maybe.
Pearl (02:06):
No, I'm kidding.
Yeah, so we went to Michael's,we got t-shirts and some tidy
supplies and we tied sixt-shirts and you know, with
varying results, I thinkeveryone was pretty happy with
them.
And then then Wednesday morningwe put all put on our t-shirts
all tie-dye t-shirts and we tookthe kids to a concert, their
(02:31):
very first concert.
So
AJ (02:35):
it was at a drive in theater?
Pearl (02:37):
Yeah, it was a, it's a drive in theater tour.
I don't know.
Who's who's sponsoring it.
The headliner was Toby Mac
AJ (02:45):
Toby Mac.
Pearl (02:46):
Yeah, so our kids really like Toby Mac.
So it was just kind of like,just kind of a fun family way to
break them into going toconcerts.
AJ (02:56):
Yeah.
He's the most frequentlyrequested around here, which is,
you know, he's pretty fun Itmakes you feel hip and cool.
Pearl (03:03):
Yeah.
I mean he put, I mean, it was agreat concert.
because it was a drive intheater to our, we, you know, we
had our assigned parking space,we went and parked.
But it wasn't quite as close asI was hoping.
It was, I actually, the crazything is how early people were
lining up to pull in.
So I was anticipating we weregoing to get a much better spot
than we ended up getting.
AJ (03:22):
yeah, we got there like right when the, before the
Pearl (03:25):
yeah, we got there before the Gates opened, but man, it
was just nuts.
So violet and I actually wentand snuck up closer to the front
so we could like get some ofthat concert, energy, you know,
get a little bit more of aconcert experience
AJ (03:38):
Yeah.
You guys had a pretty good spot.
Pearl (03:40):
yeah, so we got really close and you know, there's like
a full stage and fog machines,light show and.
It was pretty awesome.
There was backup dancers and itwas, yeah, it blew their minds.
Honestly, violet was soimpressed.
Henry and Oliver, of course,Henry and Oliver loved Toby Mac.
(04:00):
They're just singing along toall the songs.
Peter's a little bit like me,but you know, he is fine.
AJ (04:07):
Yeah.
Well, Peter was interested, butit the concert started at like,
Pearl (04:12):
I know well we got in, we got in the doors at about five
30 and then then we, we, weactually all got into the back
of the minivan.
So we had three kids in theback, one in the middle and Asia
and I sat on the other side andwe all watched a movie together.
And then, towards the end of themovie, the first artists came on
(04:34):
and So we stopped it.
We watched that for a littlebit, and then there was the
super long intermission tobasically waiting for it, to get
dark enough for the light showto work, you know?
Yeah.
So, gosh, I don't know what timeToby Mac actually came on, but
it was eight,
AJ (04:51):
at least might've been closer to eight
Pearl (04:53):
Yeah, it was
AJ (04:54):
think the concert ended till after 10.
So Peter
Pearl (04:59):
Peter was done.
Yeah.
AJ (05:00):
Peter's almost six.
So he was toast about midwaythrough the Toby Mac.
here.
He was telling me he wants to gohome.
I'm like,
Pearl (05:08):
There's nothing we can do.
AJ (05:09):
I'm sorry, man.
Pearl (05:10):
Short of an emergency.
We are stuck here.
You
AJ (05:13):
either sit here and watch or you can climb in the back seat
and go to sleep.
So he climbed in the backseatand went to sleep somehow in the
midst of a concert the kid wasout, but yeah, it was pretty
great.
We opened the sunroof of the vanand the boys.
Poked up through the sunroof andsat slash sat up on top of the
(05:33):
roof and could see.
And I just kind of stood in thedoorway up above.
So we had a decent view andyeah, and they had, you know,
the big projector up with Deltkinds of different camera
angles.
It was a good concert.
It was pretty
Pearl (05:47):
far
AJ (05:48):
It was better than I thought it was when we first got there.
And the opening act, it was justsome random guy with his piano.
So there wasn't much going on,but I think it was,
Pearl (06:01):
it was pretty underwhelming for the kids.
We were like, Oh boy, this isnot going to be worth.
AJ (06:07):
Toby Mac came out and he had this great band.
Pearl (06:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
He was playing with thediversity band
AJ (06:14):
diverse.
Pearl (06:15):
they had, they had a full brass section and yeah, all the
artists were just reallyincredible.
So much talent on that stage.
It was just like mind
AJ (06:24):
They were impressive.
Pearl (06:25):
Yeah, great, great.
Musicians.
AJ (06:28):
yeah, It was fun.
Pearl (06:29):
Yeah.
So then violet and I went upand, you know, it's dark and
unlike a normal concert whereyou're like shoulder to shoulder
with people and everyone isgoing nuts.
It's just violent.
Nice standing off to the side,around a bunch of parked cars.
And we're in a little gap.
We snuck into a little gap wherethere wasn't another car park.
Cause it was in front of thekids' play area that was not
(06:51):
being used because it was aconcert, you know?
And so we were just, I mean, itwas kind of like a mosh pit of
one, cause I was determined togive her a full concert
experience and she was just kindof like play Bahamas.
So we.
I know, I know other with likemy tie-dyed shirt, my ripped
jeans just bopping along to themusic.
(07:12):
And I told violet that it's nota real concert, unless you wo
you know, you haven't had theconcert experience if you don't
whoop.
So I think I finally got a smallwoo out of her at the end of the
night.
She was like, whew,
AJ (07:24):
Pilot's a fairly reserved young lady.
So It was a stretch, for her,but she was,
Pearl (07:31):
she loved the concert though.
She thought it was
AJ (07:32):
definitely loved it.
I was doing the kind of the samething early on in the concert.
I was like, I got to try and getthese boys hyped up Cause they
were just kind of sitting therelike, wide-eyed, they weren't
really sure what to expect.
Yeah.
They kind of all get a littlebit shy too.
So I was like, kinda like, I waslike, kinda like tapping them on
the shoulder like clap in andtrying
Pearl (07:52):
Right, right, right.
AJ (07:53):
yell out a little bit and be like, you guys can applaud, you
guys can like, And then halfwaythrough, they were.
Singing along and clapping wayoff B that's just our
Pearl (08:04):
Yeah, it was great.
AJ (08:05):
It was fun.
Pearl (08:06):
Yeah, so we're looking forward to more of those in our
future with older children.
AJ (08:10):
Okay.
Well,
Pearl (08:11):
all right, well we're
AJ (08:12):
enough chit-chat I think we
Pearl (08:13):
get into.
AJ (08:15):
Jump into it.
He's
Pearl (08:16):
presentation.
AJ and Pearl (08:17):
All right.
Well, today with us on thepodcast, we have John w
McCaskill and he is going to besharing.
He's going to be sharing somehistory with us.
So, yeah, we're really excitedto have you, we've been looking
forward to having some guests onour podcasts that are a little
bit more qualified than we are,which is a fairly low bar.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We've, we've set a low bar forourselves.
(08:37):
So we're looking forward tothis.
Thank you so much for your time,John.
John W. McCaskil (08:42):
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
Thank you so much.
AJ and Pearl (08:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
So do you want to just tell us alittle bit about yourself and
yeah.
John W. McCaskil (08:50):
So I am John w McCaskill of John w McCaskill
history alive, where I teach theprinciples of leadership and
teamwork, using history as thevehicle, through which to do it.
History has been my thing sinceeight years old, my report cards
home, you know, John's a goodstudent.
He just talks too much.
(09:10):
So I think I've probably found,you know, my niche, but when
history was being taught, I was,I was eating it up history and
geography absolutely loved it.
And so that's what it's been.
And my undergrad degree is adouble major in history and
music, which really works out.
(09:33):
Let me tell you, I mean, youknow, history reflects the music
and music reflects
AJ and Pearl (09:37):
Yeah, it really does.
John W. McCaskil (09:39):
So, and then my most valuable lesson in
undergrad was, you know, don'tspend a dime on grad school
until you know exactly what youwant to do.
And I realized that I couldmajor in military history and I
ended up doing that andabsolutely loved it.
(10:00):
But by the time that wholeacademic process was over, I had
completed three master'sprograms.
So
AJ and Pearl (10:07):
Wow.
John W. McCaskil (10:07):
I didn't think that when I, it was going to be
like that when I first started,but eventually that's, that's
what it was.
And, and I, and I, you know,I've enjoyed the ride.
I mean, Oh my goodness, thepeople I've met the
opportunities I've had becauseof it, you know, my gift, it
certainly made room for me andit is still making room for me.
So that's been exciting, thisTuskegee airman thing.
(10:31):
It's funny because in graduateschool, all of my papers started
to write or lean towardsAfrican-American and us military
history that I, at the time, itwas not a conscious decision.
It was just looking to see,okay, what else needs to be, you
know, brought to the, to theforefront that I wasn't seeing.
And so that's how that started.
(10:53):
And interestingly, you know,there are a whole lot of things
that were coming together.
During the time I was working ata company called tour immobile,
which worked, which was here inArlington national cemetery in
Morrison DC.
Matter of fact, T-Mobile wasaround.
I think since the sixties, itjust went out of business.
They'd be like 10 years ago, butyou know, did tours through the
(11:16):
cemetery.
And some of my colleagues, Imean, this, this job was
supposed to be my holdover jobuntil my good government job
came through.
And yeah, cool.
AJ and Pearl (11:25):
Yeah.
John W. McCaskil (11:26):
Some of us were really competing in a
friendly type of way to outdoeach other and it was a friendly
competition.
And so after work, I'd come homeand I'd be studying for more
stuff.
Right?
Well, these groups called hadspecials if somebody rented out
a tram and it's those openwindow trams, it would.
(11:49):
And so one day world war twoveterans were coming through
from a group called honorflight.
Which is an organization thatbrings world war II veterans to
world war II since 2004.
And now we're transitioning toKorea, Vietnam, and wounded
veterans.
But I had a group one day andlike I said, there was one part
(12:12):
of my tour.
I'd go pass.
We'd go pass minimum.
No, David's his headstone andBenjamin O.
Davis West point graduate wascommander of the three of the
99.
Plus your squadron eventuallythree 32nd fighter group, right?
And I mentioned that and I wasfeeling good about myself.
We got to the two of the unknownsoldier for the changing of the
guard.
We got the veterans off.
(12:32):
I took this photograph next tothe trim, and I'm looking pretty
tough with all these world wartwo veterans.
So we get them all off, butthere's one who's sitting in the
tram and he's in the picture,right?
He starts, you know, on the sideof the trip, son, come here,
come here, come here.
I didn't know what was going on.
So I rushed over to him and whatthese hands that had seen over
(12:54):
90 years of life, he had thiscrumbled up piece of paper in
his hand.
He says there was the 99 to 100,301st diminish, the second, was
the 32nd fighter group.
People don't get the story.
Right.
They just don't get the story.
Right.
Let me tell you, his son came ona trip, dad, dad, you got to
(13:14):
come down, you got to come down.
Two of the paramedics said,let's take his vitals.
I didn't know what was going on,but I felt like I had been
violated.
So I walked off, went to thebathroom, get myself together
and decided I wasn't going to gosee the changing of the guard.
Well guess who is sitting on thebench between me and the
changing of the guard?
(13:35):
Yes.
Tuskegee airmen, LorenzoHolloway.
And I said to myself, well, son,just get yourself together is
the second way.
Just take it like a man.
And this time in a calm voice,he says, son, Listen, I
apologize.
I should've never gotten upset.
(13:55):
I, I politely stopped them andsaid, sir, you do not have to
apologize.
I know you would try to get meright.
And you know, in life, sometimeswe come to those crossroads
where we have to decide, are wegoing to do this thing or we're
going to choose to do somethingelse.
And sometimes we choose to do tosomething else.
But on that day I decided I wasgoing to learn this Tuskegee
(14:17):
airman story.
And it has made all thedifference now.
So we're going to talk about theTuskegee airman this morning.
The thing is I'm not going togive you the entire presentation
that I do.
But I will mention that therewere three elements that help to
usher in black combat pilots.
There was an African-Americantradition of defending the
(14:40):
nation.
There was an African-Americanenthusiasm towards aviation, and
that was really for everybody inthe country, during the 1930s
and forties.
And then there was a resurgenceof the modern day civil rights
movement.
So all of that stuff starts tohappen.
Now, let me just say,African-Americans have
definitive this country sincethe revolutionary war.
AJ and Pearl (15:01):
right.
Yeah.
John W. McCaskil (15:02):
But prior to the civil war, their
participation was illegal.
And there were a lot of reasonsfor that, including, you know,
the fact that people weren't toocomfortable with, with black
folk who may have formerly beenenslave with guns in their
hands.
So they didn't have a problemputting them in the Navy, but
they did not want to put them inthe army.
(15:25):
But many times when the countryneeded them, those individuals
would defend the country withthe hope that maybe they would
be freed.
And there were some agreementsmade in the revolutionary war.
Like, look, you may be enslavednow, but if you fight, you'll
get your freedom.
Some of them probably did.
I know of at least one who didnot, we roll up to the American
civil war.
(15:46):
There were two confiscationscondensation acts.
The first was in 61.
The first, the second was in 62.
And it pretty much said that youcould utilize, you know, blacks,
but it didn't really say how.
It wasn't until Lincoln'semancipation proclamation that
said, Oh, okay.
Anybody who wants to join anyblack and wants to join a union
(16:06):
army Navy will be allowed to doso.
Over 209,000 individualsparticipate over 38,000 of them
died as a result of theirparticipation.
They then authorize blacks inthe military because prior to
that, they weren't authorized.
Now it's on a segregated basis,but they are authorized.
Right.
(16:27):
And they end up, they startedwith six units, but it ended up
with, for the 24th and 25thinfantry regiments and the ninth
and 10th cavalry.
We know the latter two asBuffalo soldiers, right.
Yeah, well, last we continue tofight in throughout the Wars
world war one, there were twoblack infantry units of the 92nd
(16:47):
and the 93rd, both of those wereblack.
They went overseas in 90 secondsunder the front, the, the us
flag 93rd flew under the Frenchflag.
But I know I didn't, I'm justtrying to build a foundation
that will begin to Tuskegee
AJ and Pearl (17:01):
Yeah.
That's fascinating.
John W. McCaskil (17:02):
at the well, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So that's what happens.
What's interesting is the 93rdgets a bunch of awards from
France, including the cross,right.
Which is their military honor,the 92nd.
Doesn't really get that.
And remember they fought underthe U S flag.
And so, you know, there arefeeling a certain way and have
(17:25):
certain prejudices that they'realready thinking about these
individuals, right?
So.
After world war one, there was a1925 report on the use of Negro
man power during war time.
And here were the conclusionsthat they came to.
The blacks were lazy.
Leaderless did not participatein the government.
(17:46):
They were superstitious.
They were afraid of the dark.
They were admitted, leadinferior and mentality compared
to the white man.
And they were inherently weak incharacter than the white man.
Now this was a 1925 report.
You can go to Carlisle now andpull up.
You probably can still pull itup online.
AJ and Pearl (18:07):
Yeah.
John W. McCaskil (18:08):
So that is the lens through which the army is
looking at prior to world wartwo.
Now, as I told you, there was aearly black aviators who, who
who were flying Chicago was sortof like the, the capital of
black aviation.
But, you know, Chicago has got,if he, whether, if you've ever
(18:31):
flown modern day industry, manytimes be been in the old and
better because of weather.
Right?
So that's one of the reasons whythey want to look for someplace
in the South, where they could,where they could do this thing.
There was a program entitled thecivilian pilot training program.
It was in all universities.
This starts around 1938, 1939.
(18:53):
Why?
Because the United Statessuspects, they will probably be
in this war.
And if it happens, you betterhave a cache of pilots from
which you can choose.
AJ and Pearl (19:02):
Right.
John W. McCaskil (19:03):
Six of those universities were black,
including how university, NorthCarolina, a and T Hampton.
And of course this place down inAlabama called Tuskegee.
No, there was a man by the nameof geo Washington.
He was, he was like thevisionary for all of this.
There were two years of thistype of flying.
There was an elementary and asecondary, and he started to put
(19:26):
those together so much so thatafter these other six
universities completed their,their elementary training.
So like, okay, where are wegoing to send these kids to, you
know, there's no place for themto go.
Well, geo Washington had put thesecondary in place down in
Alabama and that's where theyended up.
So Tuskegee had a track recordof putting out black pilots,
(19:49):
which is being successful intheir training program.
And so, as I said, it wasoffered to college students in a
lot of people took advantage ofthat.
Now.
Not going to get into it, butthe emergence of the neighbor of
the civil rights movement, eightPhilip Randolph, who was the
individual who was responsiblefor the March on Washington in
1963, was leading a March in1941.
(20:10):
And it was for equal opportunityin the war industry.
And in the military andpresident Roosevelt's like,
look, you don't have to Marchfor that.
I can sign legislation.
And that ended up happening.
And so people were able to worknow, what did that date, how
willing people were to allowthat to happen?
There's a different story, butthat starts to happen.
(20:31):
Right?
And then they even talked aboutbringing blacks as pilots.
The first was Yancy Williamsfrom Howard university and he
said, Oh yeah, we sit in anothertable.
We don't have a facility foryou, which was the case at the
time.
All right.
So I think eventually he wouldbecome a Tuskegee airman a
couple of years later,
AJ and Pearl (20:48):
Yeah, I think so.
John W. McCaskil (20:49):
So remember the military between world war
one and world war II, we'remaking leaps and bounds.
You know, you're going fromdopamine fabric, right?
Planes to, you know, modelplanes that go a lot faster.
AJ and Pearl (21:02):
Yeah
John W. McCaskil (21:03):
We have to mention Colonel Benjamin O.
Davis Jr.
Who was a West point, graduategraduated in 1936.
When he came out, he graduatedhigh enough to choose whatever
occupation he wanted.
They said, look, he says hewanted to do a base and like,
look, black folk don't fly.
You can either go into infantryor the cavalry.
So I think he ended up, he wentinto infantry, but when the
(21:25):
opportunity came up, let me tellyou he was not cramming the
night before saying, Oh man, letme, let me see if I can get this
job.
No, he was preparing for aposition that at the time he
could not see
AJ and Pearl (21:40):
Gotcha.
John W. McCaskil (21:41):
data again.
He was preparing for anopportunity before the
opportunity got dead.
And when it came, he juststepped right into it.
What, that's good for me rightnow.
Okay.
So, so pilot training was thesame for everyone, right?
If you read the United Statesarmy air force handbook would be
(22:02):
United States army of what it isfast.
It breaks down everything thatthey went through and how they
were putting stuff together.
There were normally four.
There were a few levels oftraining, flight, pre flight
training primaries.
When you were flying a biplanebasic when you flew the BT 13, I
think BT 11 and then advancedwas the 86 or the 80 10,
(22:26):
depending on whether or notyou're going to be a single
engine pilot or a twin enginepilot.
And then of course yourtransition flying would be
whatever aircraft you were goingto use.
That's what you were going tofly.
And so those guys had to gothrough that.
Now the first group of Tuskegeeairman that everyone is aware of
is the 99 pursuit squadron.
(22:47):
The first five individuals tograduate graduated in March of
1942.
I believe 40.
Yes.
And Colonel well, captainBenjamin knew, I think he was
still a captain that told him,cause he ended up going from
captain to major Lieutenantgirl, girl Benjamin O.
Davis, who was the West pointgraduate.
And so those guys graduated, butthey stuck around for a long
(23:07):
time because nobody really knewwhat to do with them.
They eventually gets shippedoverseas in 1943 and they're
fighting in North Africa.
But remember the, the militarywas segregated, so the basis
could be segregated, but it'slike, where are we going to put
these guys?
They were attached to otherfighter groups, what they were
(23:30):
pretty much by themselves.
And they were at a lot ofdifferent places in North Africa
and then ended up going to Italyand they were flying over there.
Meanwhile, there was anothergroup that three 32nd, which
consisted of the 100, 301st302nd fighter squadrons.
And so they ended up trainingand then they go over sleek
season.
Once they get overseas to Ramatele.
(23:52):
The 99 joins them.
So they ended up having fourfighter squadrons in a group,
normally is three spidersquatters that make up a group.
In this instance, there werefour.
And so that's what they did.
And so those guys, at one point,they were trying to set those
guys down and said, look, youguys are not doing anything.
You're not up to par yada, yada,yada.
(24:12):
And you know, David's had tocome back home and fight for
them and said, look, the reasonwhy we're not shooting down
enemy aircraft is because ourmissions are not putting us
there.
And so then they weretransferred to escort duty.
Now, what does escort duty mean?
We didn't have a chance to gothrough the theories of
strategic bombing, butessentially it's this, you send
(24:36):
a bunch of bombers to bomb youropponents industry railway
system.
Deppos whatever.
Right.
And that would their war effort.
But you send those bombers out.
You know, the B 17 had the Gversion had about 13 machine
guns and they thought that ifthey flew tightly together in
(24:58):
these closed box formations,that they could protect
themselves.
Well, it did serve, but youknow, those German fighters are
learning how to fight too.
And if you attack them early onand you start to take out the
first ones, then the formationsare spread out.
And once that happens, it's justlike the wild kingdom.
You get an animal on his own.
(25:19):
And you know, it was lines ofbounce on him.
AJ and Pearl (25:21):
Yeah.
John W. McCaskil (25:22):
So what you needed was fighters that could
escort them.
But the fighters at the time,the P 40 sevens only had a range
of about 350 miles.
And so the Germans would justwait until the fight is turned
around and they pass on thebumps.
AJ and Pearl (25:37):
Yeah.
John W. McCaskil (25:39):
I forget the numbers.
Of casualties.
But I think if I'm, if I amcorrect, the army air Corps air
force suffered the mostcasualties in any other unit.
And let me tell you, when itfirst started, you only had to
fly 25 missions.
The chances of you flying 25missions on touch was about 20%.
AJ and Pearl (26:02):
Super dangerous.
Wow.
John W. McCaskil (26:04):
my goodness.
Let me tell you, I don't know ifyou saw Ken burns is the war.
It was a man in episode two bythe name of Earl Burke.
And he was telling his story andI'm thinking this guy is
plagiarizing me because that'sthe exact same story.
I would tell him the Arlington.
Then the light came on, thelight came on.
I realized, wait a minute.
I'm not he's he's not telling mystory.
(26:24):
I had been telling his story
AJ and Pearl (26:26):
Right.
John W. McCaskil (26:27):
I called.
Let me tell you, I called out toSacramento because I found Earl
Burke on the internet calledhim, ended up talking to his
wife.
And she talked to me as if she'dbeen knowing me for years.
You know, I was one of the kidswho grew up in the neighborhood
and we talked for about 20, 25minutes.
I asked her about Mr.
Burke.
She says, Oh, he's in the hot.
And I'm like, what?
What's wrong?
Is he okay?
He's okay.
(26:47):
She said, Oh, he just fell, hurthis back.
Well, he'll be all right.
I say, well, ma'am just tellhim, I called and wanted to say,
thank you for his service.
And I said, well, wait a minute.
Can I write a letter?
She says, Oh, absolutely.
So I wrote him a letter prettymuch told him the whole story
I'm telling you.
And then thank you for service.
Now that was around November,October, November of Oh eight or
something like that.
I believe Memorial day of 2009.
(27:10):
I worked up the courage to callagain, this time she answered
the phone in a man as well, butthis time I got relationship
with Ms.
Burke.
So I talked to her first and sheremembered me and I said, yeah,
Ms.
Burke, you know, I'd like totalk to Ms.
Burke.
And she paused and said passed.
And I'm the same way.
I'm like, Oh my goodness.
You know, and I'm sort ofgetting a little broken up on
(27:32):
the phone, you know, for me.
And I've never met, which Icouldn't at the time, understand
why?
And I said, ma'am, I just wantto thank you for sharing him
with the world.
I mean, I ain't know what elseto say,
AJ and Pearl (27:42):
Yeah, that's tough.
John W. McCaskil (27:44):
but here's what she told me.
She said, he got your letternow, you know how we, we want to
thank somebody for something andwe keep putting it off.
And then for one day we foreverlose that opportunity.
I'm so glad he got the letter.
And after I got off the phone, Ilooked it up on the internet.
(28:05):
Turned out.
He probably passed within twoweeks of my first head.
I postpone that letter for aweek.
He wouldn't have gotten it.
AJ and Pearl (28:17):
yeah.
John W. McCaskil (28:18):
And so I'm so glad I responded correctly at
that moment.
But I say that to say, he talkedabout going to shrine for which
he went to the second rate onSchweinfurth, which is just as
horrendous as the first.
They went to for the August of43, lost 60 bombers and went
back in October 17 to sew andlost an additional 60.
(28:41):
And he was on one of thosemissions.
And so that's what those thesefighters would do.
They would protect these guyswhen the Tuskegee airmen started
to protect fighters of the 15thday of force, which was coming
out of Italy, their numberscompared to the other fighter,
squadrons were better.
You got it.
You know, you, you have tocompare apples with apples.
(29:03):
If they were in eighth airforce, their numbers, might've
been different since the eighthsustained so many more
casualties, but you know,there's a myth that they didn't
use any bombers.
I think they didn't losebombers.
And even they said, you know,now losing them the flag, right?
It's almost like you shootfireworks up in the air, except
you've got hundreds of pieces ofmetal, just the air.
(29:25):
Well, you can't stop that.
But when you're talking aboutlosing to fighters, you're
talking about that were actuallyshut down and they lost less
than 25.
Well, over 205 escort missions.
If I'm flying, I'll take thosechances.
AJ and Pearl (29:41):
205.
You said total missions.
John W. McCaskil (29:43):
escort me escort missions.
Now they flew other missions,other sororities, but in terms
of escort, 205, I just met a guyon Facebook.
His dad flew with the particularorganization.
You says, I think my dad made aphone with the Tuskegee and, but
I don't know for sure.
And I said, well, give me, hesent me his dad's law book
AJ and Pearl (30:05):
Oh, wow.
John W. McCaskil (30:06):
to compare that to the missions.
And I was able to send back tohim.
I think his dad was escortedmaybe like five or six times by
the Tuskegee airman.
And he didn't know what missionsthey were, but then, you know,
so I was able to get that tohim.
AJ and Pearl (30:18):
Cool.
John W. McCaskil (30:19):
So, you know, 205 escort missions and only
losing 27 that's that's not badat all.
I would take
AJ and Pearl (30:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'd like to them to be myescort, I guess
John W. McCaskil (30:31):
Oh my goodness.
Well, needless to say that,eventually people started to re
request them.
AJ and Pearl (30:37):
that's amazing.
John W. McCaskil (30:39):
If you want a team to be great, it just means
one thing, he put the bestplayers on the field and you
don't look like,
AJ and Pearl (30:44):
Yeah.
your life's on the line, youwant the best,
John W. McCaskil (30:48):
Oh my goodness, you better believe it.
You don't.
If you got to have heart surgerynext week, the only question you
got is this the best guy that'sall right.
So those guys flew over there.
They did a magnificent job whilethey were over there.
Now there was another group ofindividuals, Tuskegee airman,
(31:08):
who were flying over trainingfor the four 77th bombardment
group.
Now, these guys were training tofly twin engine Mitchell's and
they were going to go into thePacific.
There were four bomber squadron,six 16, six 17, six, 18, six 19.
And those guys were going to gointo the Pacific.
(31:29):
The war ended prior to.
But those guys have a differentclaim to fame.
Let me just say, when they firstauthorized a 99% squadron, they
didn't have pilots, but they hadground personnel, which is why
anybody related to the Tuskegeeexperience is considered a
Tuskegee airman members,mechanics.
(31:52):
You brought in the mailroom,right?
AJ and Pearl (31:55):
right.
John W. McCaskil (31:56):
But when you sit them to Chanute feel in
Illinois, even though everythingwas supposed to be segregated,
their training classes were not,
AJ and Pearl (32:06):
Oh,
John W. McCaskil (32:08):
they may have had to sleep in separate
quarters or whatever, but thetraining classes, those guys,
guys, we're integrated, I'vetalked to general Charles McGee
and I asked him about thehospitals.
He told me that we're segregatedmilitary facilities on the basis
segregated, but if you needed togo to the hospital, They weren't
(32:29):
segregated.
It was not cost effective, youknow?
AJ and Pearl (32:34):
yeah.
John W. McCaskil (32:35):
So, so these, so it's not, and there was
something, Oh, general McGeetold me that when they first
started, there were two redcross girls on the base and they
were Caucasian.
AJ and Pearl (32:48):
Which is
John W. McCaskil (32:48):
that, you know, and so, so these guys have
the four 77, they were down atFreeman fields is in Indiana.
They decided they wanted to gointo the officer's club, which
by regulations they were allowedto do.
But the commander Colonel Selwaysaid, well, I'm classifying you
(33:12):
as trainees that you can't gointo, what do these guys go in
there?
And there are a few things thathappened.
I think the first time 61 ofthose guys have court martial or
they're arrested.
Right.
And eventually they want theseofficers to sign documents
saying that they will adhere tosegregation on the base, even
though it's going againstregulations.
So they don't sign.
(33:33):
So they ended up arresting like101 of these guys, and they were
first come confined to theirbarracks.
And then they were trained to,Oh Lord, where did they go?
They went somewhere else.
They took them somewhere else.
It's a court martial those guys,and they were actually held
under arrest.
These are American officers whocould very well have gone
(33:54):
overseas and lost their lives,fighting for freedom and
democracy.
And so that's what those guyswere for now because of the
black press stories start to getout.
And eventually those guys, Ithink in the, in the final
analysis, one person was finedfor striking an officer or
something like that.
Push his way through.
And he considered that strikingan officer.
(34:16):
But, but those guys, we don'thear much about them, but they
are considered to be Tuskegeeairman as well.
AJ and Pearl (34:23):
Yeah.
John W. McCaskil (34:25):
too long ago, they were awarded the
congressional gold medal fortheir services is Tuskegee
airman.
I've had the opportunity to meetquite a few of these Tuskegee
airman.
I've done on my website.
I've got.
I think I've got some films,there's some films running
around, out there.
And I've talked about myexperiences with all of them.
(34:45):
In 2014, there was an honorflight that came from Savannah,
Georgia, and they bused all theway here.
There was most of the time theseguys are wearing jackets and
hats and everything.
You know, there was oneAfrican-American woman, man.
She looked like she dressed forchurch.
She got on a ball cap, but she'sgot on, you know, closed license
(35:07):
going to church.
And I went over to her and Ihugged her.
I said, man, thank you so much.
I've walked through a lot ofdoors of opportunity.
I said, you have so many of uskicked them off the hinges.
She says, son, you're welcome.
I go my way.
She goes her about 20 minuteslater, I see her again in the
middle of the Plaza.
This time I walk up to her say,ma'am I got to hug you to Simon.
I note down to her and I huggedher and thanked her again.
(35:27):
And somebody took that photo.
That photograph was takenseconds before what I'm about to
tell you.
She says to me, can you take meover to the woman's bar relief?
I said, yes, ma'am.
Now you've been in the world warII Memorial.
You know, the 12 bar leads oneach side, 12 from the Pacific
theater, 12 Right And I take herover and I'm sitting here and
(35:50):
she's sitting there in front ofthe bar, relieve of women's
servant.
And she starts telling me whereshe served.
And then she says in the lasttwo years, I was in the 99th,
under boo Davis.
And then my mind started goingrapid fire.
I felt like I was on a game showwith five seconds answer and I
(36:12):
didn't have any answer.
And I'm like 99% squatters.
And she's like, yeah.
I said, Benjamin O.
Davis junior.
She says, yeah.
I said, D 99.
She says, yeah, deepen.
I said, ma'am, do you have anypapers to corroborate your
story?
She says, yeah, my dischargepapers.
I said, ma'am do you know,you're a Tuskegee airman.
She looked at me says, no, Idon't think so.
I'm like, no, ma'am you are, youare.
It's not just a pilot, just asexcited as I am.
(36:34):
That is how I was then.
And I said, man, we gotta getyou your red jacket.
My goodness.
And we start dogging.
And in a matter of momentsaround the Memorial, there was a
Tuskegee airman there who was afemale.
Now people probably what neverheard of that before.
And the last thing she told mebefore she got on the bus, she
says on what my red jacket.
(36:54):
So there was an assumed to bechief petty officers there.
A few of them were women, threeof the four women that I knew
were there, came over to thebus.
They said, we heard this aTuskegee airman on, can we go
and meet her?
We didn't say yes.
We didn't say no.
We just pointed to the stairs.
Those ladies went up and they,they greeted Ms.
Amelia Jones.
(37:15):
And I thought to myself, it wasonly fitting for that to happen.
I said, because these women whowere about to become chief petty
officers in the United States,Navy were standing on the
shoulders of missing mule yard.
Jones
AJ and Pearl (37:29):
That's amazing.
John W. McCaskil (37:30):
went their own way.
Six weeks later, I flew down toSavannah, Georgia, and miss
Amelia was inducted into theTuskegee airmen in
AJ and Pearl (37:40):
Wow.
John W. McCaskil (37:41):
And she got her red
AJ and Pearl (37:43):
That's awesome.
John W. McCaskil (37:44):
No, but story.
And over a few months later, wemade some more calls.
I went back down to Savannah inApril of 2015, and she was
awarded the congressional goldmedal for her work or service as
a Tuskegee and my goods.
I mean, there's a lot I couldsay about that story, but I will
(38:06):
end it by saying one year, twoweeks after I met her and she
was in hospice when we met, shewasn't supposed to make the
trip.
She had pneumonia.
She was released the day beforeto come.
AJ and Pearl (38:19):
Wow,
John W. McCaskil (38:20):
And there were a lot of other organizations
involved in the process thathad, they not put their piece of
the puzzle on the table.
This would not have happened
AJ and Pearl (38:28):
right?
Yeah.
John W. McCaskil (38:30):
one year, two weeks after I met her, miss
Amelia was cleared for her finalflight, but for one year she was
to ski a
AJ and Pearl (38:40):
That's amazing.
What a great
John W. McCaskil (38:43):
why is all of this.
Well, listen, there's so manyother stories you don't have
time to get into them.
Oh my goodness.
But why is this story importantthat the Carnegie wasn't the
founder of what we know today isAfrican-American history month
says that if you do not seeyourself in history, you will be
relegated to a place ofnegligent ability.
And then you will be on theverge of extermination.
(39:05):
I have dealt with students for along time.
I have dealt with black studentsfor a long time.
And when you ask them, you know,what do you know about a
particular individual or blackhistory?
And their, their reference pointis slavery.
AJ and Pearl (39:20):
right.
John W. McCaskil (39:21):
is a problem.
AJ and Pearl (39:23):
Yeah.
John W. McCaskil (39:24):
When they see people look like them, you know,
and I'm going to tell you, andit doesn't matter.
Listen, the only thing thatmatters is putting the best
people on the field.
That's it?
Well, you see people look likeyou'd inspire to, Hey, maybe I
can do this as well.
And so that's why that's just apart of the reason why we tell
the story.
I mean, there's so manyleadership and teamwork
(39:47):
principles that we could, we canglean from this story and many
others,
AJ and Pearl (39:51):
Yeah.
John W. McCaskil (39:51):
but for a while.
And and I still love doing it.
You can tell a matter of fact, Ido world war II reenacting,
yeah, I get the opportunity todo that.
And so, we get to tell the storyover and over and over again,
but yeah, that's it that's
AJ and Pearl (40:04):
Oh, man.
Thank you so much for sharing.
John W. McCaskil (40:07):
Oh, sure.
Thanks for having me.
AJ and Pearl (40:09):
Yeah.
So, just really quick, how canpeople get ahold of you and what
would you like?
People to, I guess, what kind ofa follow-up process would you
like to see?
John W. McCaskil (40:19):
Oh my goodness.
So as I said, you know, I.
I present teaching the history,teaching the principles of
leadership and teamwork, usinghistory as the vehicle, through
which to do it.
I can be found on my website.
If you just Google John wMcCaskill history, alive
Instagram page, I have aFacebook page, I've got a
website and I'm, and I've got aYouTube channel.
(40:41):
And, you know, I just, I hadbeen filming before, but this
past year, I really learned howto do film editing and there
various topics of history that Ihad that I'll treat.
And I've done that in a lot ofwhat we've talked about is on
there.
But you know, what I would, Iwould like to see is, you know,
that we would train up this nextgeneration to have character,
(41:03):
know, doing the right thing.
No, one's looking to becompetent in whatever they
choose to do and have a sense ofcomradery.
You know, it's one thing forthem to be great, but they, they
must inspire people around themto be great.
You know, you want a team to begreat.
You got to get better players.
That's it.
No.
And so that's what we're lookingto do to help train a better
players.
AJ and Pearl (41:24):
amazing.
Yeah.
Well, we're going to link to allof that all of your pages on our
social media and that's going toalso be in the show notes when
the podcast goes out, thispodcast is going to go up
probably end of the week, end ofthis week.
Yeah.
So Friday or Saturday of thisweek.
And yeah, I mean, I just, Ican't thank you enough.
This is.
(41:45):
An incredible treat for us totalk to a real historian.
Yeah.
We just raised the, we justraised the level of historical
knowledge on our podcast byleaps and bounds.
So thank you so much.
John W. McCaskil (41:56):
no AGA girl, thank you so much for having me.
AJ and Pearl (41:59):
Hey, before you go, I have, I have one quick
question specific to what youwere talking about and forgive
my ignorance, but what is thisred jacket that you're talking
about?
John W. McCaskil (42:09):
so the Tuskegee airmen were known as
red tails, right?
And that term red tails isexclusively for those who went
overseas.
So you got some Tuskegee airman,you know, the bomber pilots are
not considered red tails, butred is a significant color for
this unit.
They would paint their tailsred.
(42:30):
So if you were, you know, in abomber stream and you're looking
out and you see a an airplane isflying parallel with you, cause
you didn't want to flyperpendicular.
Cause you know, you might betrying to get to them.
They don't know where the netyou've really a photo shoot at
AJ and Pearl (42:44):
Right.
John W. McCaskil (42:45):
had to keep your profile.
You could look at the tail.
Some of the tails wouldcheckerboards.
Some of them were yellow, someof them were red, but that's how
you can identify whichfrightened group it was.
And so.
Red is a significant number.
The jacket, the blazer that theywear when they go to their
meetings is red.
I think that's the case for allof them, except for the Detroit
(43:06):
chapter, which is the firstthere's this blue, but that's
where the red jacket comes
AJ and Pearl (43:11):
Gotcha.
Gotcha.
Yeah, boy, what a fantasticstory.
And yeah, I mean so many lessonsof leadership and teamwork that
can be gleaned.
So thank you so much for all thework that you do and thank you
for coming on our podcast andsharing with us.
John W. McCaskil (43:26):
Oh, thank you, AGI.
I appreciate it, bro.
Thank you so much for having me.
Pearl (43:30):
Well, that was amazing.
I
AJ (43:33):
so amazing.
Pearl (43:34):
I learned so much, I was especially amazed by the story
about, Amelia Jones.
AJ (43:41):
Wasn't that?
Wasn't that great.
Pearl (43:43):
was crazy.
I actually looked up EmiliaJones.
You can look up just Google hername.
You can see pictures of her.
You can read more about herstory and yeah, just, just an
incredible life.
And what, what a trailblazer.
I mean, everyone, all of themembers of the Tuskegee airmen
(44:04):
were.
Incredible trailblazers, but
AJ (44:06):
Yeah.
Well, the fun thing about herwas she was a trailblazer in
Pearl (44:10):
and she didn't know it.
AJ (44:11):
Like she didn't even know it, you know, and I that's
always, that's always amazing.
Pearl (44:16):
didn't know the, the exact role that she had played.
I guess she, she knew the role.
She just didn't understand thecontext of her role.
AJ (44:25):
Yeah.
I think when someone is doingsomething and you hear this all
the time where people are I'mnot a hero and you're like, no,
truly you are You just need tozoom out of your own life and
look at it in the context.
But I think oftentimes that'swhat makes true heroes and true
pioneers and trailblazersthey're kind of just doing what
they know they need to be doing.
(44:47):
And history can look back onthem and say, That was a turning
point,
Pearl (44:52):
right?
AJ (44:53):
an amazing thing That was done.
Pearl (44:54):
was a
AJ (44:55):
And that's
Pearl (44:55):
step forward.
AJ (44:57):
Isn't that the whole point of our podcast is we're trying
to just look back and point tosome of the people who were
overlooked and
Pearl (45:05):
and it's just, it's just so important to have perspective
when you look at your presentlife and if your perspective on
your present life is only basedon what you know, and see and
doesn't have any of historybehind it.
You're just missing out on somuch when you do that.
And, that's how history getsrewritten and that's how history
(45:27):
gets forgotten.
AJ (45:28):
Yeah.
So true.
so thank you so, so much, John,for bringing some perspective
and some context to us beyondjust some random Google
searches.
Pearl (45:39):
Yeah,
AJ (45:40):
So guys, please uh check out some of the resources for John w
McCaskill we'll have.
Pearl (45:47):
Yeah.
We're going to have all thoselinks up on our Instagram,
Facebook and Twitter, as well asin the show notes.
And,
AJ (45:54):
and let us know if you have any questions for him?
We would love to have John.
Pearl (45:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
I would recommend just go andfollow him on some of those
social media platforms.
He's always posting really greatcontent.
Super fascinating.
And it's just kind of a fun way.
I mean, I, I'm following a lotof this stuff in my social media
and it's a really fun way tojust kind of, see neat stories
come through your feed.
You know, you don't need towatch another tasty video or see
(46:19):
what someone ate for lunch andwhat the cat is doing.
You
AJ (46:21):
Right?
Well, and maybe step away fromsome of the current events that
we have very little perspectiveon, and it just floods our
newsfeeds and.
Look look, look up at someinspiring stories from history.
Pearl (46:36):
Yeah.
So, today we're actuallywrapping up the last, the last
episode of season one.
So this is our 20th episode andwe're going to take six weeks
off and just do some summertimevacation stuff.
And season two is going to startup in July.
So we'll see you then we'rehoping to have some more guests
(46:57):
in season two.
Some more fascinating stories inseason two,
AJ (47:01):
some more real historians,
Pearl (47:03):
maybe some more real historians in season two.
AJ (47:05):
we'll even get John back
Pearl (47:07):
Yeah.
So we're looking forward toseeing you back here in July,
but in the meantime go aheadand.
Keep an eye out for awesomestories and send them our way
and definitely check outeverything that we send that we
post for John w McCaskillhistory alive.
And that way you can kind offind out more about his life and
(47:29):
his journey to becoming ahistorian and what kind of makes
him tick.
AJ (47:35):
Yeah.
All right.
Thank you so much for listening.
We love to know what you think.
Feel free to subscribe, likerate review, and you can also
visit our website at thestories.
We forgot.com
Pearl (47:51):
and share it with your mom.
Bye.
AJ (47:54):
Yeah.
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