February 10, 2025 • 48 mins
Join us as we welcome Martin Thompson, the visionary CEO and founder of Oncoparse, who has transformed personal adversity into groundbreaking innovation in the fight against pancreatic cancer. From his journey as an electrical engineer to co-founding Lenexa Medical, Martin's story is a testament to the power of design-led thinking and interdisciplinary collaboration. Discover how the University of Melbourne's biodesign course is fostering a new wave of startups by pairing engineering and business students, all focused on addressing critical clinical needs.
Explore cutting-edge pancreatic cancer treatment through the lens of precision oncology, where we discuss the revolutionary promise of KRAS-targeted therapies and ctDNA-based approaches. Our conversation delves into how a collaborative ecosystem, bolstered by AI and data analysis, is driving forward the identification of oncogenic genes and shaping the future of cancer diagnostics. With the potential for exponential growth as more data becomes available, we're on the brink of transformative advancements that could redefine patient outcomes.
Navigating the challenging landscape of early-stage MedTech and BioTech funding in Australia, we discuss our vision for creating a supportive platform to empower innovation. In this chat, you'll learn about the hurdles and opportunities faced by one of our startups and also hear how initiatives like venture studios and alternative venture support pathways could serve to support more groundbreaking ideas. Through personal stories and Martin's unique perspective, this conversation allows us to understand his relentless drive to tackle significant health issues, motivated by a deep-seated desire to make a tangible difference in the world of cancer innovation.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Samuel Wines (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Strange Attractor, an
experimental podcast from CoLabs, a transdisciplinary innovation
hub and biotechnologyco-working lab based in
Melbourne, Australia.
I'm your co-host, Sam Wines,and alongside my co-founder,
Andrew Gray, we'll delve deepinto the intersection of biology
, technology and society throughthe lens of complexity and
(00:22):
systems thinking.
Join us on a journey ofdiscovery as we explore how
transdisciplinary innovation,informed by life's regenerative
patterns and processes, couldhelp us catalyze a transition
towards a thriving future forpeople and the planet.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of The Strange Attractor
(00:45):
.
It's been a hot minute since werecorded a podcast.
It's been very busy on our endgetting the new Notting Hill
facility up and running and acouple of other things going on
in the background which arepretty exciting that we'll speak
about, like the Venture Studio,potentially a fund as well.
I think I actually talk aboutit in this podcast.
(01:05):
Anyway, this is a good one.
This is a chat with one of ourrecent members, Martin Thompson.
So Martin is the CEO andfounder of Oncoparse.
So Oncoparse is looking atfinding new and novel ways to
detect pancreatic cancer earlyon, so you don't have to die
(01:26):
from it, which we think ispretty cool.
We hope you enjoy thisconversation with Martin and
stay tuned.
We've got a couple of otherpodcasts in the works that we're
going to get finished and outonto the airwaves soon.
Welcome, thanks.
I was just saying before.
This has been a long timecoming, but I think things are
(01:49):
just starting to ramp up now foryou here at CoLab, so it's
probably actually a good time tojump on the podcast and talk
about what you're getting up to.
Hey, yeah, absolutely, yeah,awesome.
Martin Thompson (01:59):
So for those that don't know what is your
background, so I actuallygraduated as an electrical
engineer with a final year inbiodesign innovation.
So I studied a Master ofElectrical Engineering and my
final year was biodesigninnovation at the University of
Melbourne.
(02:20):
Some listeners people may befamiliar with the program spins
out a lot of edtech startupsinto the ecosystem.
So I spun out a company calledLenexa Medical.
I was the CTO and director atLenexa Medical.
I grew that company until 2020,the very end of 2021, at which
point I moved into a publiclylisted company, adherium,
(02:44):
working on regulatorysubmissions and devices for them
.
Then mid last year so that'smid 2023, jumped into Oncopars
full-time as the founder and CEOand, yeah, since then been
growing, got two moreco-founders and moved into
CoLabs and, you know, look veryhappy.
Samuel Wines (03:10):
Yeah, I find the biodesign thing is really
interesting because when I hearor when I think biodesign I
think designing with biology,not designing for biology in a
medtech application.
It's really interesting how thesame word in a different
context can mean somethingtotally, totally different.
You know, I've got books onbiodesign that are like how we
can use mycelium to grow wallpanels or hemp to do insulation
(03:30):
or, you know, replacingpetrochemical plastics with kelp
, like all of this sort of stuff.
Like that is when I hearbiodesign.
But when I came across, yeah,the Melbourne Uni biodesign
course, it's very much moremedtech focused.
Could you kind of elaboratemore around what that course is
like?
Because it feels like it verymuch is a bit of a generator
function for the MedTechactuator and tram and a couple
(03:54):
of other things.
It does really feel like it hasa bit more of a, I guess,
commercial or industryapplication outcome from that
course.
Is that an accurate sort ofVery much so, very much so.
Martin Thompson (04:07):
That's the intention.
So by Design started inStanford, and now I'm curious as
to where they got the name from, what they were thinking when
they said by Design.
I hear what you're saying, butyeah, so the program pairs up
engineers with business studentsin their final years.
So so it pairs them up, andthen the approach is a
needs-based approach.
(04:28):
You look in your points ofinterest and around the health
system, at hospitals, et cetera,for clinical needs.
You identify clinical needs,you develop concepts based on
those needs and the ultimategoal is to spin out a business
(04:48):
that has good prospects, a gooddefensible IP, hence the
engineers, solid business model,business students and to spin
out.
So the objective is to developcommercially viable businesses.
Samuel Wines (05:02):
Yes, Okay, but also you're saying needs
oriented.
So a word that I use a lot withinnovation is it needs to be
challenge led, and it soundslike needs oriented is kind of
that same sort of approach.
But just saying like, don't goand make something that's not
needed, you know, look and findsomething that there is no
solution for, or a majorchallenge that we might be
(05:24):
facing, be facing, and then tryand find or design a solution
around that.
Right Absolutely, and in a way,that's where Oncoparse was born
, right.
Martin Thompson (05:33):
Yes, yeah, that was an ease-based approach.
So I was actually looking at avariety of things and my
grandfather had died frompancreatic cancer in 2017,
actually the year I was doingbiodesign innovation so I
returned to the problem andlooked into it and discovered
(05:53):
that, you know, it was acompletely void of good
solutions in any way for thiscancer and I was very surprised
to see that, you know, not a lotof innovation had taken place
on such an aggressive cancer,which is the third biggest
killer of all cancers inAustralia.
So there was that exceptionallystrong need there to do
(06:17):
something about this.
Samuel Wines (06:19):
Okay, so I remember you saying I think
Andrew as well has had a familymember pass away from pancreatic
cancer and so the reason whyit's so aggressive is that
currently, when trying to detectit, it's usually in the latter
stages of the cancer development, where it's pretty much a death
sentence.
Is that pretty accurate?
Martin Thompson (06:41):
I would say that is the major reason as to
the very high mortality ratethat it is detected so late,
usually only once symptoms haveshown themselves.
But it is also a veryaggressive and complicated
tumour.
It can begin in patients asearly as 40 as a non-threatening
(07:02):
sort of microtubular complexesthat start to grow and that's
the very onset of this diseaseand that may never turn into
cancer.
But that is generally thoughtto be where it comes from, so it
can be present very early on.
It's in a very hormonally denseenvironment and just the way
(07:22):
the tumor forms as well.
It doesn't shed a lot either.
So it's very densely sort ofprotected in, like a sort of
scar tissue complex.
So it's hard to detect andthere are no ways of detecting
it early.
So usually, yes, you only seeit once the symptoms are showing
and by then you know you're introuble.
Samuel Wines (07:44):
So you're going to have to school me here.
I learned about the pancreasand all these things back in my
undergrad as well, but I'mtotally at a loss to what the
main hormones are that it sortof regulates and how that could
sort of play into the, I guess,the cancer formation and all of
that sort of stuff.
Is it linked to, I guess, thefact that it is a major hormone
(08:05):
center?
Is any of that impacting thecancer growth or anything at all
?
Or is it because I know thatthere's so many idiosyncrasies
with all the different types ofcancer?
Right?
Martin Thompson (08:16):
Yeah, look, that is one of the reasons given
as to potentially why it issuch an aggressive location for
the development of this cancer.
I've read it being called asthe angry organ because of the
hormonally dense environment.
I'm mostly familiar with thegenetic mutations and probably
this very dense hormonalenvironment is the driver for a
(08:39):
lot of these genetic mutations.
So there are a great number ofthese which lead to variously
turning off tumor suppressorgenes, et cetera, which is
common as well in other cancers.
But for pancreatic cancer itdoes seem that there are a few
more of these genes present andthat's why it is.
(09:01):
It is a good idea to have anapproach that can look sort of
holistically or at a large, alarge sample of these variants
rather than just one or two, andI imagine that's where the
future of pancreatic cancertreatment, um, it, will be
heading.
You know a sort of a variety oftreatments to deal with all of
(09:23):
these different geneticmutations that can cause
different expression ofdifferent, you know, oncogenic
and metastatic situations totake place.
Samuel Wines (09:35):
Yeah, it's fascinating.
It does really feel like somuch of the advancements in med
tech, health tech, all of thissort of stuff.
We're realizing that we'recoming up against the limits of
reductionism and there's onlyclassic, one gene, one problem.
All this sort of stuff that weused to say no longer is fit for
purpose to be able to solvesome of these solutions,
(09:55):
especially in such a complexarea with so many flow-on
effects from all of these genecascades and all of that sort of
stuff.
And it really makes sense to methat we should be taking these
holistic approaches to be ableto try and look at the thing as
a whole and map the dynamic intorelationships and try and make
sense of what's going on.
And doing that early, right Toyour point.
(10:16):
It sounds like there are somekey patterns and processes which
you can pick up on and thenmaybe keep an eye on, like like.
Is there any interventionscurrently that like say, I don't
know, using your technologythey can identify that?
Is there some sort oftreatments or things that
currently are available to maybeaddress things when it's at,
like, that microtubule stage orother sort of things?
(10:38):
Is there anything out there yet, or are you hoping that the
technology that you're creatingwill then lead to more
experiments with treatment.
That's earlier on.
Martin Thompson (10:48):
That has been.
One of the major problems isthat there weren't any effective
treatments.
The only effective way ofaddressing the cancer is
resection and chemotherapy.
Targeted therapy that I'm awareof locally there is a KRAS
(11:10):
targeted medication that iscurrently in clinical trials and
that will be the first, andKRAS is the major oncogenic
mutation for pancreatic cancer,so that will be the first
targeted medication that will beavailable should that trial be
successful.
So there has not been treatmentavailable.
However, it is the time now atwhich there is a resurgence of
(11:33):
interest in treatment forpancreatic cancer, probably
because of the technology.
The government has put in asignificant amount of money into
developing treatments forpancreatic cancer, so now is a
good time.
There's a lot of moneyavailable for treatment not
necessarily, unfortunately, forus as a diagnostic, but there's
a great opportunity to be apartner diagnostic for these
(11:54):
therapies that are beingdeveloped, even in the early
stages, and referring people tothese clinical studies that are
becoming available.
Samuel Wines (12:00):
Yeah, to me that makes sense.
You kind of have to take anecosystem approach with stuff
like this.
Right, there's going to besomeone working on the
diagnostics, someone working onthe treatment, and finding ways
to like effectively interrelatewith them makes a lot of sense,
and I can imagine that yourtechnology as it develops might
be something that these peoplecreating the treatments for like
(12:21):
, if they have that, then itwill allow the treatment to be
more efficacious, or somethinglike that, because they're
getting there earlier, making ithappen.
So it's really exciting.
Have you exploredcollaborations or partnerships
with anyone currently?
Martin Thompson (12:35):
We have had discussions.
We haven't dove into anythingsignificant at this point in
time, but you know, as wedevelop and as we go through our
trials, that is something thatis first and foremost on our
radar.
Samuel Wines (12:53):
No, that makes sense.
That makes sense.
So would you define this as,like, precision oncology or how
would you sort of like, whatsort of realms does this fit
into, like this form oftechnology that you're creating,
and what kind of advanced dataanalysis is it kind of working
with to make this happen?
Martin Thompson (13:14):
It's absolutely precision oncology.
So using ctDNA.
So we take a ctDNA-basedapproach.
What's ctDNA?
So ctDNA-based approach?
What's ctDNA?
So ctDNA is circulating tumorDNA.
So it comes from cell-free DNA.
So cell-free DNA refers to allof the circulating DNA in your
(13:35):
body that has been released whena cell dies, for instance.
So when they die, they let outtheir contents and there's all
this DNA floating around yourbody.
Cancer cells do the same thing.
So we take a liquid biopsy, soabout four milliliters of blood.
We sequence all of the DNA wefind in that blood.
So if you have a tumor, therewill be tumor DNA present in
(13:55):
that sample.
So we sequence everything thereand search for oncogenic genes
and also analyze the methylome.
So, in terms of data analysisand also analyze the methylome.
So, in terms of data analysis,that is, taking that approach of
looking at the variants ofinterest, also looking at the
methylome and also sequencingthe whole genome, so everything
that is present and as we getmore and more samples, it's sort
(14:21):
of like an omics approach aswell, looking at different sets
of data and also correlatingthat with, perhaps, things that
we may not be aware have animpact on the development of the
cancer, using AI to draw thoseconclusions as well.
(14:41):
Yeah, so yeah, data plays a bigrole in our approach.
Samuel Wines (14:47):
Yeah, it sounds so , then.
Almost as well it's likepersonalized oncology, but, to
your point as well, it's goingto be fascinating to see, you
know, there might be some genes,totally irrelevant, in another
space, that just so happen toalso be, I guess, causing or
supporting the cancer to growand develop.
(15:09):
So it's that's interesting.
So what?
What have you been building AIin-house?
Have you been looking at usingstuff that already exists, like
what's the?
What's the approach that you'rethinking of taking?
Martin Thompson (15:21):
Both.
So at this point in time, we weuse a lot of the tools that are
available from our supplier andwe augment those.
But as we get bigger and biggerdata sets, we'll be able to
grow more effective AI models.
So at this point in time, inthe early stage, it's a case of
(15:42):
augmentation of those models.
And as we get more and moredata, as we are, then we'll be
able to fine tune and grow thosemodels.
And as we get more and moredata, as we are, then, you know,
we'll be able to fine tune andgrow those models.
At the end of the day, it'ssort of an exponential growth
situation, right?
You know, the more data wecollect and the more we
accelerate, the better ourmodels are going to be, you know
, and the more data we cancollect as well, you know, and
(16:04):
the more data we can collect aswell.
Samuel Wines (16:07):
So with this is this are you starting with
pancreatic cancer?
Do you think that thistechnology could be potentially
utilized for other cancers orother forms of diagnosis in the
health med tech sort of spaces?
Is this just?
Let's start here?
This is a major killer, buthave you got your eyes set in
the future on exploring ways inwhich this could also be
(16:28):
leveraged for other cancers?
Absolutely.
Martin Thompson (16:31):
We envision this as being a platform
technology and our approachdefinitely lends itself to that.
So pancreatic cancer as astarting point, as a massive
unaddressed need and a personalproblem for me as well, and you
know, expansion to other rarecancers, expansion to brain
tumors and then eventuallyexpansion to support, you know,
(16:54):
the whole ecosystem and that isjust very much the case for our
technology and our approach.
That we sequence the wholegenome in the sample just means
that we have access to all ofthe variants for any tumor that
would be present in your body.
Samuel Wines (17:10):
No, that checks out.
To me, that was.
I've always wanted to ask youthat because it seems like the
approach that you're takingcould easily be transposed into
another context, especially ifyou've got like an AI powered
thing.
They might even be able to doinferences with other cancers,
or I can imagine there could bea scene not that this is
necessarily great, but where youcould be taking samples,
(17:30):
running them through, and thenthe AI is like oh, they don't
have pancreatic cancer, butthere's this other thing that
you probably should keep an eyeon or check.
I can see how this couldinterrelate with like a thing
like DNA fit or like some of thebasic tools that 23andMe and
all these other health genetictests and panels have got.
So I can imagine that, to yourpoint being a platform tech, it
could be really easy to sort ofplug this into an ecosystem and
(17:54):
support a whole bunch of otherpeople doing things.
And no, it's good to hear thatyou're speaking that sort of way
.
I feel like most goodtechnologies going forwards will
be taking that sort ofcollaborative approach and
finding ways to support oneanother.
It's kind of that's how anactual ecosystem works.
Right, you've got like a birchtree.
I don't know why I'm usingAmerican examples.
You've got a eucalypt treethat's probably going to be
(18:15):
sharing resources with a wattle,and you know.
So these are sort of thingsthat happen in it through the
mycorrhizal network and it'slike you know, this sort of
technology that you're lookingat creating is kind of like that
mycorrhizal network that canconnect different tools and tech
together and be able to supportpeople going forward.
So that's really exciting.
I mean, what are like becauseit's such a sensitive and
(18:37):
complex sort of area cancertreatment.
So I'm curious, like what aresome of the biggest sort of
technical challenges you've hadto face with bringing this to
life sort of technicalchallenges you've had to face
with bringing this to life?
Martin Thompson (18:49):
Yeah, good question.
So because we are using a sortof we're definitely deep tech,
we're using the latesttechnology in sequencing I might
as well tell you about it.
So we use nanopore technologyto sequence.
Ngs is pretty much where you'dcharacterize the current level
(19:11):
of high-tech solutions anddevelopment of taking place.
So NGS is where it's at.
For the most part, we usenanopore because of several
benefits that I mentionedearlier we can get different
sets of data in a single sample,et cetera.
So challenges in this contextmeans working with a new
(19:35):
technology means that there arestill issues, that there are
sources of inaccuracies that arestill being worked out.
So that's a challenge for us iswe've been increasing our
accuracy and our sensitivitystep by step, iteration on
iteration, to get the bestcell-free DNA assay possible.
Now not only when you look atthe tech situation.
(19:57):
You look at the situation ofpancreatic cancer.
It doesn't shed very much andthat means that, compared to
other cancers, you're going tohave a low tumor CT DNA tumor
burden in your system.
So it means there's just not alot of the DNA there.
So you've got to be correctingand thinking about every source
(20:17):
of error possible to make surethat you can actually pick up
that signal.
So that's our approach andthose are the challenges.
Samuel Wines (20:25):
Is it possible to get a false positive with
something like this, or is itmore likely?
Is it possible to get a falsepositive with something like
this, or is it more likely thatyou're going to get a false
negative on reads?
Martin Thompson (20:34):
More likely that you're going to get a false
negative.
Samuel Wines (20:39):
Yeah, that checks out, and so you're saying
earlier on, you're saying thatthe reason why there's not much
of this DNA floating around isthat it tends to form like a
scar and is very kind ofsecluded.
So, given that fact, like I'mtrying to think, is there like
(21:01):
even ways in which you couldtake samples because it's a
blood sample, right, so you cantake that from anywhere and it's
systemic, right?
Are there any other modes orways to do non-invasive sampling
, or is this pretty much thebest way?
Martin Thompson (21:15):
Non-invasive?
No, the current standard forsequencing and characterizing a
pancreatic cancer lesion isthrough fine needle aspiration
biopsy.
So you're going through anendoscope into the stomach and a
needle is inserted through thestomach lining into the pancreas
and they take a solid biopsythat way.
(21:36):
So it's invasive.
It's only done generally, onlydone once.
So no, there aren't really anyother ways.
There's only other biomarkerthat is available is CA19-9, but
that is not specific topancreatic cancer.
That's elevated for a lot ofdifferent cancers.
Samuel Wines (21:58):
Okay, cool.
Yeah, I was wondering.
I guess where I was kind ofleading with that is.
I know that there are some waysin which you can detect things
through breath or other means aswell.
Like I know there are somecancers, that which you can
detect things through breath orother means as well.
Like I know there are somecancers that dogs can pick up on
right.
So I was curious as to whetheror not there was any ability to
pick up or sense things that arelike a smell or a pheromone or
(22:22):
a breath or something like that,because I imagine there would
be modulations.
But, to your point, maybethere's, you know, certain
modulations in that that arejust going to happen, even if
you're sick, and it's what kindof sickness isn't necessarily
going to be easy to ascertainfrom taking those sorts of
samples.
So what does it look like foryou having to bring this from
(22:50):
ideation to actualization?
What are the steps or thepathways?
Like as a med tech company oras a deep tech company, that
because there's so manydifferent things that you've got
to do right.
Like because it's trulytransdisciplinary.
You've got engineering, you'vegot life science, you're going
to have a full tech team andthen there's going to be AI,
like when we speak aboutsupporting transdisciplinary
(23:10):
innovation like this, is itright?
And I imagine there's so manysteps and hurdles that you have
to jump through to be able tomake a valid product, but then
through that, you're also havingto do the clinical trials, I
imagine.
So what does it look like foryou to bring this to market, and
how long is that expected totake?
Martin Thompson (23:31):
Yeah, so it is a complicated and very
interdisciplinary process.
I'm very fortunate that with mybackground, I understand some
of the pathways, such as theregulatory submissions and the
appropriate points ofcollaboration.
So you definitely need aclinical champion.
(23:52):
We're very fortunate to havethat with our co-founder, dr
Julian Choi, an expert inpancreatic cancer Definitely
need your scientific, of course,lead, which we're fortunate to
have with our other co-founder,omar Dabash.
So we've been building up aplan for our clinical studies
(24:14):
which, of course, supports ourregulatory submission.
So we have an upcoming biobankproject and post the biobank
project it's going to be about ayear's worth of longitudinal
clinical studies.
So we're on a path to lookingat going to market in 2027.
(24:39):
So you know, the regulatoryenvironment for medtech devices,
let alone a diagnostic, ispretty significant.
So we have to collect a lot ofdata and a lot of evidence for
that.
So the major challenge for usis definitely the clinical
studies, which we're veryfortunate to have a partner with
to be working on that.
Samuel Wines (25:00):
Well and it's so expensive.
This is one of the things thatI only figured out recently when
we had, like another member,talking about going through this
process.
Like you know the differentphases of the clinical trials as
well, like there's actuallyquite a jump between, you know,
say, phase one, phase two, likeclinical trials, in terms of how
much you have to fork out tomake this happen.
(25:22):
Right, Um, which you know.
Obviously other companies thataren't in the health tech, med
tech space don't have to accountfor Um.
So obviously, when looking atraising, this is all stuff that
you have to be factoring in andobviously, as you said,
partnering with other people whocan help you make it happen
probably is super useful.
Are you thinking of doing thatlocally?
Martin Thompson (25:42):
Yes, yeah, the Australian market, the
Australian ecosystem.
It's a good place to start.
So we've been.
You know we're raising locally,we're talking to partners
locally, we work at localhospitals.
The plan is to launch theproduct locally in Australia,
melbourne first, and grow here,you know, within the first
(26:07):
couple of years, and then launchoverseas.
Samuel Wines (26:11):
That makes sense.
So do you have to go through adifferent regulatory hurdle when
you're going to, say, theStates or to the EU?
Do you have to like, rinse andrepeat what you've done here, or
does this, I don't know, likeit's like.
Is it like uni grades, whereit's like, oh well, if you went
to that uni, that course doesn'tcount.
When you come here, like, is itsomething similar to that?
You have to go through the samepathways in different countries
(26:34):
to meet their different needs.
Martin Thompson (26:36):
Yeah, so they do have their own regulatory
bodies and regulatoryrequirements for submission.
Of course there's the FDA forAmerica and MDR in the EU, so
you don't necessarily have torepeat the whole process.
You can take evidence, theevidence you've collected for
your submission locally, for thesubmission in those markets.
Samuel Wines (27:02):
Yeah, have you?
I mean, it's going to be a wildnext, like three to four years
in America at the moment.
Um, is there going to be anycause?
I know that, like you know, thenumber one thing Trump talks
about is tariffs and taxingeverything coming in.
Like obviously, every singlemed tech device and stuff like
that that are coming fromAustralia or anywhere else are
(27:25):
going to be hit with thesetariffs, which is going to be
interesting.
I'm curious to see how that willchange the landscape and
whether people are more inclinedto want to stay here to set
things up and keep their eyes onAPAC rather than the US, or
whether it's not going to be anyissue at all.
Yeah, I'm really curious to seehow this new presidency will
(27:48):
impact, I guess, deep tech,climate tech, impact-oriented
innovation, given that they'revery keen on advanced tech and
everything.
But it feels like it might begoing a little bit more
nationalist, so I'm curious tosee how that will sort of pan
out.
Has that been something thatyou've been sitting with or
thinking about, or not toophased about that, just focusing
(28:09):
here on Australia?
Martin Thompson (28:10):
So look, we've always had a strategy to launch
into the American market.
We have been focusing mostly onNorth America through Canada,
though, because we haveconnections in Canada.
One of our advisors is Canadianand she heads up.
You know she has somesignificant relationships there
(28:34):
with hospitals and a specificinterest in pancreatic cancer,
so we've been looking at Canadaas a launchpad.
That's where we've beendeveloping our relationships.
But the US market is such a bigmarket We've been in
conversations with distributorsthere so I imagine it's
generally from a salesperspective for us selling into
that market, business as usual.
(28:56):
So yeah, that's been our pathso far and yeah, Cool.
Samuel Wines (29:03):
So looking at the as I just mentioned before, like
Aussie ecosystem, you knowthat's where you're looking at
starting and staying.
Obviously this space isevolving rapidly.
Is there anything like in thisecosystem that whether it's
infrastructure or whether it'spartners and things like that
that you think would helpaccelerate growth that don't
(29:24):
currently exist?
Like?
Is there anything in theecosystem where you're like oh,
it would be great if we had this.
Martin Thompson (29:30):
Yeah, I feel like there's not a lot of
necessarily a lot of grantsavailable for companies like us
that are biotech sort ofdiagnostic companies.
I feel like there's a lot offunding available for the
development of therapies.
There's a lot of.
There's more funding around formedtech companies.
So I just feel like there couldbe more accessible grants for
(29:55):
early stage development ofdiagnostics or even looking at
therapies.
I feel like most of it istargeted towards later stage
companies and then the grantsthat are available for early
stage companies aren't really,you know, for us.
Samuel Wines (30:12):
Understood.
Yeah, they're not necessarilycontextually appropriate.
Um, a lot of the time, but thisis and again, like I'm I'm I'm
smiling because this is a thisis a comment we hear all the
time right, it's like thesegrants are great for people who
aren't like us.
Uh, and then so many of theseum companies and startups trying
to do do things differently andor trying to create things that
(30:33):
currently don't exist, thenthere's not necessarily piles of
grant funding out there forthat.
You know, we're really good athealth tech, med tech, in very
certain specific fields, andit's like we've just doubled
down on that and put all themoney into that rather than
maybe opening or widening theboundaries.
And also, I think, you know, itdoes seem like we have quite a
low risk tolerance here inAustralia, at least from a
(30:57):
government investmentperspective, whereby, to your
point, people are really happyto wait for you to get three or
four steps before the finishline of the marathon and then
grab your hand and run over andbe like, hey, look at this, look
how good we are, rather thanhelping you at the starting line
, let alone helping you do thetraining to prepare for the
marathon.
It does really feel like we tendto prioritize things that are
(31:20):
almost already done, which is abit of a pity.
I feel like that's why we havelost so many technologies
overseas, why so many ideasdon't even, I guess, get off the
ground at all.
So it's a pain to hear that,but I do think that there will
be a lot, of, a lot of changeover the next five to ten years,
(31:40):
with a bit more support comingthat way.
I think we have to if we'rewanting to really amp up this
ecosystem.
So fingers crossed that somemore grants and stuff like that
come around for you.
Yeah, it's a challenge and, asI said, we hear it all the time.
Yeah, it's a challenge.
As I said, we hear it all thetime.
Martin Thompson (31:59):
We're battlers, here we're battlers.
So in the US it's a lot easierto raise money earlier on, but
here sort of, we have to, youknow, really battle for it in
the early stage and take care ofa lot of that risk and raising
money from angels um early on,um, to get to that point.
(32:20):
It'd be nice to have a bit moreof a supportive ecosystem.
Like you know, colabs is such agood supportive ecosystem, um,
but more of like perhaps supportfor a biotech, specific
accelerators and incubators, um,there's not a lot of options, I
I guess.
Maybe a question for you is oneday will we have a collabs uh
incubator accelerator program?
Samuel Wines (32:43):
uh, I mean, yeah, so I'm so glad you asked.
Uh, yeah, we actually we areactually looking at um this
right now.
So there's a couple of uh grantoptions that we've gone in on
to look at creating things likethat, and we do have a couple of
potential partners that we'vegone in on to look at creating
things like that.
And we do have a couple ofpotential partners that we are
finalizing discussions with toessentially create a fund
(33:03):
alongside CoLabs to be able tosupport members and to be able
to try and get these early stageinnovations and ideas off the
ground.
So there's multiple approachesthat we're looking at taking
here.
We're not sure what we'recalling it, whether it's a
venture studio, whether it's aaccelerator, an incubator, it's
it's kind of all of those andnone of those at the same time,
because you know you've alreadygot a company, you, you're
(33:25):
already started, so it'sdefinitely not a studio for you.
It would be more of like anincubation or acceleration.
But then say there's somethingthat we want to really address.
Say, like one of our members islooking at growing kelp and
we're like, great, well, we'dlove to be able to use that kelp
to create plastic alternativeproducts.
So then maybe we spin up acompany to then buy that
(33:46):
feedstock from that companywho's already a member.
So like this industrial ecologyapproach.
So I really don't know whatwe're going to call this thing a
venture platform, a venturebuilder?
I'm not too sure.
I don't want to get too stuckup on words because sometimes if
you use something so abstract,people are like so it's like an
accelerator and you'd be like,no, it's not those, it's
something different.
But everyone always has aperspective or a view on this
(34:09):
right, which is alwaysinteresting.
But yes, there will besomething coming soon and yes,
we have, like I guess, our eyeson quite a few of our members
that we'd love to be able tosupport along the way, because,
yeah, just seeing so many of youin all the time battling just
trying to make things happen, Imean that's why we exist to make
it as effective, likefinancially, to be able to get
into the space and start doingthings.
(34:31):
But totally acknowledge thatthis is the space is one element
, but there still needs to bethe resource and to be able to
support people to do the thing,and so much of founders time and
not actually spent doing thetech or doing the thing, it's
spent actually like almost injust constant crisis mode of
like I just need to keep thisthing afloat.
I just need to keep this thingafloat, should just just like,
(34:51):
go over here but one more found.
I've just got a little bit ofmoney over here and you know
these things like that's great,but if that pressure was taken
off, you could go further, somuch faster, which a lot of
these things need to be able tobring them to market and, I
guess, make the positive impactthat we want to see in the world
.
So, yeah, no, I get you, it's achallenge.
So, fingers crossed, we canhave something up and running in
(35:14):
the next sort of six to 12months 100%.
Martin Thompson (35:17):
I really appreciate that.
You understand the needs andyou know what we're all going
through and the fact that youhave that experience, you know
that sounds excellent.
Samuel Wines (35:29):
Yeah, well, it's all everything that we've done
has been to your point beforeabout the biodesign with the
challenge led, everything thatwe've done has been to your
point before about the, thebiodesign with the challenge led
, everything that we've done.
Like, we started this byfinding out that people wanted
space.
Um, because there was acommunity science lab that
people are asking to rent duringthe day because they're like
there's nowhere we can get space, and so so this was born from
(35:50):
that um, and then, as we, aswe're doing this, then now
people like great, you got thespace, but we don't have the
money.
People come to you and beinglike we'll give you a stake in
the company just to have accessto the lab space, which
originally we were trying to beas hands-off IP as possible,
just trying to be likeSwitzerland, like come in do
whatever, we're not going to tryand take anything but realizing
(36:11):
that people do need resourcingand support to be able to get
these ideas off the ground.
Some of them are great ideas butto your point, maybe and then
this is not necessarily to tryand rip on the ecosystem, but
maybe there might not be enoughtechnical expertise to be able
to understand that this is agood thing this device, whereas
this one over here might bereally easy to sell and talk
(36:32):
about, but it's actuallyprobably not what we need in the
world.
But that'll get 10x the fundingbecause it can be clearly
communicated to someone who hascapital and they can see
short-term returns on it ratherthan the long-term positive
impact of these other things.
So it's a fascinating thing toperceive, like over the past
four or five years, and I thinkwe're pretty well, I guess,
(36:52):
armed with the insight of beingon the ground trying to help
people build things, and we'vekind of seen so many different
patterns and processes going onthat we feel like we're pretty
well positioned to be able tounderstand how to effectively
support that with partnershipsfrom capital providers and stuff
like that.
So we are very excited to beable to bring that to life and
(37:12):
thanks for drawing that out ofme.
I wasn't expecting to uh to talkabout that at all on this uh,
on this podcast.
So I feel like I'm co-optingyour podcast.
We're meant to be talking aboutwhat you're getting up to.
It was on my mind, looking back, like knowing what you know now
, having gone through thisjourney for what's been almost
(37:33):
12 months almost yeah, yeah,what, what?
what if you'd known what youknow now before embarking on
this journey?
Like what, what do you wish youcould have done differently or
factored in?
Martin Thompson (37:46):
or is there anything like that where you're
like oh, people are much moreaccepting of your um, your, your
challenges, and of yourbusiness and of your ideas than
you think.
So very early on when I startedthis, from my previous
experience, I knew that it canbe done right.
(38:09):
Where there is a problem, wherethere is a significant need,
you can address that need.
You can save lives and createsuccessful business model as
well.
Um, I think, and with somethingas big as cancer, it is so like
or I don't know can I go andaddress that?
I feel like it's a bit silly togo and do that.
Like people are going to belike what on earth are you doing
(38:29):
?
Why would you try and do that?
And I will tell you that acouple of people did say that to
me early on just random peoplelike what do you think you're
doing?
Um, why are you doing that?
You think you can, uh, do dosomething for cancer, or some
sort of sly comments like that.
And it's just like we just kepton persisting and we found that
(38:50):
there are actually so manysuper experienced and super
supportive people.
So just keep pushing forwardwith your idea.
Don't listen to the haters.
If there's a problem that needssolving, then there are many
people out there who support you, and there is definitely a way
(39:10):
and just keep persisting andgrowing.
Samuel Wines (39:14):
Yeah, I feel like, again, it's always a bit of a
giggle moment.
But the exact same thing, right, like what you know?
That classic like what right doyou have to be doing what
you're doing?
And it's like, well, none youknow.
But what right does anyone haveto do what they're doing?
Right?
Just because someone's done likea 10 year tenureship focusing
on this exact specific area, itdoesn't mean that they
(39:34):
necessarily have any morecredibility or can perceive a
situation any better.
Sometimes it can actually beworse through the process of
like kind of that reductionisteducation where you're so
focused on one tiny thing.
It's like that might be greatand it might be really good for
research, but sometimes it can'tbe.
It's maybe not as appropriatefor if you're trying to do an
innovation, where it needs to beway more dynamic and
(39:57):
design-ally approach to science,where you're constantly
designing, testing, iteratingand the variables might not be
staying constant at all, and thegolden rule of science is keep
all the variables constant andthen maybe change one thing to
be able to see how it is gettingaffected.
So, yeah, I really resonatewith that whole doing things
(40:17):
differently or doing thingswithout having the pedigree and
just being like whatever, likeif there's a challenge that's
big enough, that you see needsto happen in the world.
Going and facing that, I think,is massive, and so many of our
startups that have been the mostsuccessful the founders don't
have any background in science,none at all.
(40:40):
They're just like.
This is a problem that I see,and I will find the right people
and we'll make this happen,because this is something that I
care about.
This is how I'm going to showup in the world and this is what
I'm going to do to make apositive impact, and that is
such a more powerful way to goabout it.
I think personally and I findthat sometimes as well like not
being confined by a singlediscipline or way of looking at
the world can be reallybeneficial for bringing these
(41:02):
things to life, because peopleare going to be coming at it
from a very different approachand when you bring all these
different people together,that's when, you know, really
insightful things can emerge.
Riffing on all of this, giventhe fact that it is such a
battle, what motivates you?
You know that is such a battle.
What motivates you, you know,and there's so many challenges
and regulatory hurdles what isit that motivates you with your
(41:23):
work and what keeps you going.
Martin Thompson (41:27):
It's something I'm passionate about, it's
something that I like doing,that I feel good about that.
I feel like I'm making adifference in people's lives.
There's so many.
Life is hard right, let alonethat you want to be struck down
by this terrible illness whereyou just don't have a chance of
addressing it and the fact thatit affects so many people.
(41:48):
The third biggest killer of allcancers is going to rise to the
second biggest killer of allcancers.
This needs to be addressed.
It's a problem that we all facecollectively, together, as
humanity.
It's one of those.
You know it's a big problem andyou know we people don't
deserve to suffer through that,as I've seen through my own
(42:09):
family experience.
So you know that motivates me,that that we can make that
change, that we can make thatchange, that we can build the
world better no, I love that.
Samuel Wines (42:17):
I love that.
Um, is there anything likeaside from this, is there
anything in the the bio-leddesign and innovation space that
really inspires you or that youfind really awesome, like
whether it's you know anothermember here doing something or
just some stuff overseas?
Is there anything where you'relike, damn, that's cool?
Martin Thompson (42:45):
I think.
I think they're all pretty cooland motivational.
You know, even you mentionedthe people growing kelp before.
It's just exceptionally goodand interesting ideas that I
never would have thought ofbefore, that that someone had a
personal connection to, and turnthat into a business.
Because, as you mentionedbefore, like research on its own
doesn't mean that people haveaccess to the product and the
service.
It needs to be translated intoa business.
(43:06):
That's the sort of society welive in.
So to see these people takingextremely unique ideas and
turning them into products andservices that people can access,
I guess you know, like CorticalLabs is very inspiring.
The journey that they've gonethrough and it's just such a
(43:29):
unique product as well.
Right, it's just so crazy andunique and addressing such an
interesting need and to see howthey've grown and also Magic
Valley.
That's actually something thatI think is really, really a big
need, because I like to eat meat, but I would much prefer to eat
(43:50):
meat that was not taken from aliving animal.
I would very much prefer to eatmeat that was grown in a lab
through meat cells.
So I think that that isexceptional.
If we can have that meat in themarket, that would be amazing.
I think that's so cool.
Samuel Wines (44:05):
He actually just.
Paul just did a podcast withChris Williamson which I just
blew my mind when he said that.
I was like what?
So I don't know who's doing hisPR.
They're doing a good job.
But yeah, there is some reallyexciting things happening here
and it's pretty wild that we getto just sort of all hang out
(44:25):
and like have a conversation,like last week with Hon.
It's been nice having you comearound, because I know how
you're, not, you don't liveclose, you know you're what is
it Like?
A car, tram, a train, a ferry?
Martin Thompson (44:38):
uh, yeah, I live around the bay, but I'm
very fortunate that the ferrydoes go.
It takes like an hour and 10minutes, so it's about the same
as like living in, like thesecond ring and getting a train.
So I was very fortunate thatthe ferry exists, otherwise I'd
probably be very difficult toaccess yeah, yeah, no, well it's
.
Samuel Wines (44:54):
I really appreciate like your commitment
to trying to come to all ofthese sorts of things and it
does really feel like.
I feel like I see you light upwhen you get to be around other
people doing interesting things.
So, um, no, it's been apleasure having you as a part of
the family.
Um, is there anything like anysort of last parting words or
anything from our perspectivethat you want to share, like any
(45:14):
updates from your team or justanything at all?
Martin Thompson (45:20):
Well, look, we're approaching the Christmas
period now so we're sort of, youknow, we are trying to tie up
our ends before the end of theyear.
Tying up our ends includes, youknow, some fundraising that
we've been doing, some new teammembers that we're bringing on,
so that's exciting, you know, tobring more people into our
immediate family.
(45:40):
But just appreciate so much thework you guys do here at CoLabs
in supporting us, just thededication to helping us all and
growing the ecosystem andsupporting us and also the
culture that you bring.
The culture is importantbecause it makes you feel at
ease, makes you feel happy whenyou come to work.
(46:02):
So it's kind of like you knowthis is our workplace and we
also feel happy coming into ourcollective workplace where we
work with other people as well.
So exciting times for us,excited to be here, feel
supported, feel like we're in agood place and we're looking
forward to a big year of growthnext year.
(46:23):
So, yeah, thanks.
Samuel Wines (46:25):
No worries and thanks for thanks for finding
time to sit down as well.
I really appreciate it.
Yeah, it's been awesome havingyou on the show and great to
finally get this one done.
It's it's been like six monthsof like, yeah, next time this
time I'm surfing, I'm over here,so, uh, no, it's good that
we've been able to make ithappen and, um, no, I really
appreciate all the work you'redoing, so thanks so much yeah,
(46:46):
thanks, sam, really appreciateit, ciao thank you for tuning in
to another episode of thestrange attractor.
Uh, yeah, a bit of a short oneand a sweet one this time round.
Um, we've got a couple morecoming up soon with some of our
other new members and we'llprobably start branching out
(47:07):
into additional content as well.
Um, I guess that systems viewof life, transdisciplinary
thinking, bioregional learningcenter, all of these other sort
of interesting areas and stuffthat we're curious about.
We're going to be doing alittle bit more of that now that
we've sort of got through mostof the members that we've
(47:27):
currently got.
So stay tuned.
I think it's going to be reallyfun, as we start to branch out
the content that we create,speaking a little bit more as
well to like some of thechallenge areas and things that
we see in the world, that mightbe fun to try and address those
generator functions of problemsthat we face in the world using
(47:49):
that complexity-informed,wide-boundary thinking systems
view of life approach.
So, yeah, there'll be probablya few more of those coming up
soon and, yeah, we're alwayscurious to hear your feedback.
So just reach out, let us knowwhat you think and we look
forward to welcome you back tothe channel sometime soon.
Bye.
Hello and welcome to the Strange Attractor, an
experimental podcast from CoLabs, a transdisciplinary innovation
hub and biotechnologyco-working lab based in
Melbourne, Australia.
I'm your co-host, Sam Wines,and alongside my co-founder,
Andrew Gray, we'll delve deepinto the intersection of biology
, technology and society throughthe lens of complexity and
(00:22):
systems thinking.
Join us on a journey ofdiscovery as we explore how
transdisciplinary innovation,informed by life's regenerative
patterns and processes, couldhelp us catalyze a transition
towards a thriving future forpeople and the planet.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of The Strange Attractor
(00:45):
.
It's been a hot minute since werecorded a podcast.
It's been very busy on our endgetting the new Notting Hill
facility up and running and acouple of other things going on
in the background which arepretty exciting that we'll speak
about, like the Venture Studio,potentially a fund as well.
I think I actually talk aboutit in this podcast.
(01:05):
Anyway, this is a good one.
This is a chat with one of ourrecent members, Martin Thompson.
So Martin is the CEO andfounder of Oncoparse.
So Oncoparse is looking atfinding new and novel ways to
detect pancreatic cancer earlyon, so you don't have to die
(01:26):
from it, which we think ispretty cool.
We hope you enjoy thisconversation with Martin and
stay tuned.
We've got a couple of otherpodcasts in the works that we're
going to get finished and outonto the airwaves soon.
Welcome, thanks.
I was just saying before.
This has been a long timecoming, but I think things are
(01:49):
just starting to ramp up now foryou here at CoLab, so it's
probably actually a good time tojump on the podcast and talk
about what you're getting up to.
Hey, yeah, absolutely, yeah,awesome.
Martin Thompson (01:59):
So for those that don't know what is your
background, so I actuallygraduated as an electrical
engineer with a final year inbiodesign innovation.
So I studied a Master ofElectrical Engineering and my
final year was biodesigninnovation at the University of
Melbourne.
(02:20):
Some listeners people may befamiliar with the program spins
out a lot of edtech startupsinto the ecosystem.
So I spun out a company calledLenexa Medical.
I was the CTO and director atLenexa Medical.
I grew that company until 2020,the very end of 2021, at which
point I moved into a publiclylisted company, adherium,
(02:44):
working on regulatorysubmissions and devices for them
.
Then mid last year so that'smid 2023, jumped into Oncopars
full-time as the founder and CEOand, yeah, since then been
growing, got two moreco-founders and moved into
CoLabs and, you know, look veryhappy.
Samuel Wines (03:10):
Yeah, I find the biodesign thing is really
interesting because when I hearor when I think biodesign I
think designing with biology,not designing for biology in a
medtech application.
It's really interesting how thesame word in a different
context can mean somethingtotally, totally different.
You know, I've got books onbiodesign that are like how we
can use mycelium to grow wallpanels or hemp to do insulation
(03:30):
or, you know, replacingpetrochemical plastics with kelp
, like all of this sort of stuff.
Like that is when I hearbiodesign.
But when I came across, yeah,the Melbourne Uni biodesign
course, it's very much moremedtech focused.
Could you kind of elaboratemore around what that course is
like?
Because it feels like it verymuch is a bit of a generator
function for the MedTechactuator and tram and a couple
(03:54):
of other things.
It does really feel like it hasa bit more of a, I guess,
commercial or industryapplication outcome from that
course.
Is that an accurate sort ofVery much so, very much so.
Martin Thompson (04:07):
That's the intention.
So by Design started inStanford, and now I'm curious as
to where they got the name from, what they were thinking when
they said by Design.
I hear what you're saying, butyeah, so the program pairs up
engineers with business studentsin their final years.
So so it pairs them up, andthen the approach is a
needs-based approach.
(04:28):
You look in your points ofinterest and around the health
system, at hospitals, et cetera,for clinical needs.
You identify clinical needs,you develop concepts based on
those needs and the ultimategoal is to spin out a business
(04:48):
that has good prospects, a gooddefensible IP, hence the
engineers, solid business model,business students and to spin
out.
So the objective is to developcommercially viable businesses.
Samuel Wines (05:02):
Yes, Okay, but also you're saying needs
oriented.
So a word that I use a lot withinnovation is it needs to be
challenge led, and it soundslike needs oriented is kind of
that same sort of approach.
But just saying like, don't goand make something that's not
needed, you know, look and findsomething that there is no
solution for, or a majorchallenge that we might be
(05:24):
facing, be facing, and then tryand find or design a solution
around that.
Right Absolutely, and in a way,that's where Oncoparse was born
, right.
Martin Thompson (05:33):
Yes, yeah, that was an ease-based approach.
So I was actually looking at avariety of things and my
grandfather had died frompancreatic cancer in 2017,
actually the year I was doingbiodesign innovation so I
returned to the problem andlooked into it and discovered
(05:53):
that, you know, it was acompletely void of good
solutions in any way for thiscancer and I was very surprised
to see that, you know, not a lotof innovation had taken place
on such an aggressive cancer,which is the third biggest
killer of all cancers inAustralia.
So there was that exceptionallystrong need there to do
(06:17):
something about this.
Samuel Wines (06:19):
Okay, so I remember you saying I think
Andrew as well has had a familymember pass away from pancreatic
cancer and so the reason whyit's so aggressive is that
currently, when trying to detectit, it's usually in the latter
stages of the cancer development, where it's pretty much a death
sentence.
Is that pretty accurate?
Martin Thompson (06:41):
I would say that is the major reason as to
the very high mortality ratethat it is detected so late,
usually only once symptoms haveshown themselves.
But it is also a veryaggressive and complicated
tumour.
It can begin in patients asearly as 40 as a non-threatening
(07:02):
sort of microtubular complexesthat start to grow and that's
the very onset of this diseaseand that may never turn into
cancer.
But that is generally thoughtto be where it comes from, so it
can be present very early on.
It's in a very hormonally denseenvironment and just the way
(07:22):
the tumor forms as well.
It doesn't shed a lot either.
So it's very densely sort ofprotected in, like a sort of
scar tissue complex.
So it's hard to detect andthere are no ways of detecting
it early.
So usually, yes, you only seeit once the symptoms are showing
and by then you know you're introuble.
Samuel Wines (07:44):
So you're going to have to school me here.
I learned about the pancreasand all these things back in my
undergrad as well, but I'mtotally at a loss to what the
main hormones are that it sortof regulates and how that could
sort of play into the, I guess,the cancer formation and all of
that sort of stuff.
Is it linked to, I guess, thefact that it is a major hormone
(08:05):
center?
Is any of that impacting thecancer growth or anything at all
?
Or is it because I know thatthere's so many idiosyncrasies
with all the different types ofcancer?
Right?
Martin Thompson (08:16):
Yeah, look, that is one of the reasons given
as to potentially why it issuch an aggressive location for
the development of this cancer.
I've read it being called asthe angry organ because of the
hormonally dense environment.
I'm mostly familiar with thegenetic mutations and probably
this very dense hormonalenvironment is the driver for a
(08:39):
lot of these genetic mutations.
So there are a great number ofthese which lead to variously
turning off tumor suppressorgenes, et cetera, which is
common as well in other cancers.
But for pancreatic cancer itdoes seem that there are a few
more of these genes present andthat's why it is.
(09:01):
It is a good idea to have anapproach that can look sort of
holistically or at a large, alarge sample of these variants
rather than just one or two, andI imagine that's where the
future of pancreatic cancertreatment, um, it, will be
heading.
You know a sort of a variety oftreatments to deal with all of
(09:23):
these different geneticmutations that can cause
different expression ofdifferent, you know, oncogenic
and metastatic situations totake place.
Samuel Wines (09:35):
Yeah, it's fascinating.
It does really feel like somuch of the advancements in med
tech, health tech, all of thissort of stuff.
We're realizing that we'recoming up against the limits of
reductionism and there's onlyclassic, one gene, one problem.
All this sort of stuff that weused to say no longer is fit for
purpose to be able to solvesome of these solutions,
(09:55):
especially in such a complexarea with so many flow-on
effects from all of these genecascades and all of that sort of
stuff.
And it really makes sense to methat we should be taking these
holistic approaches to be ableto try and look at the thing as
a whole and map the dynamic intorelationships and try and make
sense of what's going on.
And doing that early, right Toyour point.
(10:16):
It sounds like there are somekey patterns and processes which
you can pick up on and thenmaybe keep an eye on, like like.
Is there any interventionscurrently that like say, I don't
know, using your technologythey can identify that?
Is there some sort oftreatments or things that
currently are available to maybeaddress things when it's at,
like, that microtubule stage orother sort of things?
(10:38):
Is there anything out there yet, or are you hoping that the
technology that you're creatingwill then lead to more
experiments with treatment.
That's earlier on.
Martin Thompson (10:48):
That has been.
One of the major problems isthat there weren't any effective
treatments.
The only effective way ofaddressing the cancer is
resection and chemotherapy.
Targeted therapy that I'm awareof locally there is a KRAS
(11:10):
targeted medication that iscurrently in clinical trials and
that will be the first, andKRAS is the major oncogenic
mutation for pancreatic cancer,so that will be the first
targeted medication that will beavailable should that trial be
successful.
So there has not been treatmentavailable.
However, it is the time now atwhich there is a resurgence of
(11:33):
interest in treatment forpancreatic cancer, probably
because of the technology.
The government has put in asignificant amount of money into
developing treatments forpancreatic cancer, so now is a
good time.
There's a lot of moneyavailable for treatment not
necessarily, unfortunately, forus as a diagnostic, but there's
a great opportunity to be apartner diagnostic for these
(11:54):
therapies that are beingdeveloped, even in the early
stages, and referring people tothese clinical studies that are
becoming available.
Samuel Wines (12:00):
Yeah, to me that makes sense.
You kind of have to take anecosystem approach with stuff
like this.
Right, there's going to besomeone working on the
diagnostics, someone working onthe treatment, and finding ways
to like effectively interrelatewith them makes a lot of sense,
and I can imagine that yourtechnology as it develops might
be something that these peoplecreating the treatments for like
(12:21):
, if they have that, then itwill allow the treatment to be
more efficacious, or somethinglike that, because they're
getting there earlier, making ithappen.
So it's really exciting.
Have you exploredcollaborations or partnerships
with anyone currently?
Martin Thompson (12:35):
We have had discussions.
We haven't dove into anythingsignificant at this point in
time, but you know, as wedevelop and as we go through our
trials, that is something thatis first and foremost on our
radar.
Samuel Wines (12:53):
No, that makes sense.
That makes sense.
So would you define this as,like, precision oncology or how
would you sort of like, whatsort of realms does this fit
into, like this form oftechnology that you're creating,
and what kind of advanced dataanalysis is it kind of working
with to make this happen?
Martin Thompson (13:14):
It's absolutely precision oncology.
So using ctDNA.
So we take a ctDNA-basedapproach.
What's ctDNA?
So ctDNA-based approach?
What's ctDNA?
So ctDNA is circulating tumorDNA.
So it comes from cell-free DNA.
So cell-free DNA refers to allof the circulating DNA in your
(13:35):
body that has been released whena cell dies, for instance.
So when they die, they let outtheir contents and there's all
this DNA floating around yourbody.
Cancer cells do the same thing.
So we take a liquid biopsy, soabout four milliliters of blood.
We sequence all of the DNA wefind in that blood.
So if you have a tumor, therewill be tumor DNA present in
(13:55):
that sample.
So we sequence everything thereand search for oncogenic genes
and also analyze the methylome.
So, in terms of data analysisand also analyze the methylome.
So, in terms of data analysis,that is, taking that approach of
looking at the variants ofinterest, also looking at the
methylome and also sequencingthe whole genome, so everything
that is present and as we getmore and more samples, it's sort
(14:21):
of like an omics approach aswell, looking at different sets
of data and also correlatingthat with, perhaps, things that
we may not be aware have animpact on the development of the
cancer, using AI to draw thoseconclusions as well.
(14:41):
Yeah, so yeah, data plays a bigrole in our approach.
Samuel Wines (14:47):
Yeah, it sounds so , then.
Almost as well it's likepersonalized oncology, but, to
your point as well, it's goingto be fascinating to see, you
know, there might be some genes,totally irrelevant, in another
space, that just so happen toalso be, I guess, causing or
supporting the cancer to growand develop.
(15:09):
So it's that's interesting.
So what?
What have you been building AIin-house?
Have you been looking at usingstuff that already exists, like
what's the?
What's the approach that you'rethinking of taking?
Martin Thompson (15:21):
Both.
So at this point in time, we weuse a lot of the tools that are
available from our supplier andwe augment those.
But as we get bigger and biggerdata sets, we'll be able to
grow more effective AI models.
So at this point in time, inthe early stage, it's a case of
(15:42):
augmentation of those models.
And as we get more and moredata, as we are, then we'll be
able to fine tune and grow thosemodels.
And as we get more and moredata, as we are, then, you know,
we'll be able to fine tune andgrow those models.
At the end of the day, it'ssort of an exponential growth
situation, right?
You know, the more data wecollect and the more we
accelerate, the better ourmodels are going to be, you know
, and the more data we cancollect as well, you know, and
(16:04):
the more data we can collect aswell.
Samuel Wines (16:07):
So with this is this are you starting with
pancreatic cancer?
Do you think that thistechnology could be potentially
utilized for other cancers orother forms of diagnosis in the
health med tech sort of spaces?
Is this just?
Let's start here?
This is a major killer, buthave you got your eyes set in
the future on exploring ways inwhich this could also be
(16:28):
leveraged for other cancers?
Absolutely.
Martin Thompson (16:31):
We envision this as being a platform
technology and our approachdefinitely lends itself to that.
So pancreatic cancer as astarting point, as a massive
unaddressed need and a personalproblem for me as well, and you
know, expansion to other rarecancers, expansion to brain
tumors and then eventuallyexpansion to support, you know,
(16:54):
the whole ecosystem and that isjust very much the case for our
technology and our approach.
That we sequence the wholegenome in the sample just means
that we have access to all ofthe variants for any tumor that
would be present in your body.
Samuel Wines (17:10):
No, that checks out.
To me, that was.
I've always wanted to ask youthat because it seems like the
approach that you're takingcould easily be transposed into
another context, especially ifyou've got like an AI powered
thing.
They might even be able to doinferences with other cancers,
or I can imagine there could bea scene not that this is
necessarily great, but where youcould be taking samples,
(17:30):
running them through, and thenthe AI is like oh, they don't
have pancreatic cancer, butthere's this other thing that
you probably should keep an eyeon or check.
I can see how this couldinterrelate with like a thing
like DNA fit or like some of thebasic tools that 23andMe and
all these other health genetictests and panels have got.
So I can imagine that, to yourpoint being a platform tech, it
could be really easy to sort ofplug this into an ecosystem and
(17:54):
support a whole bunch of otherpeople doing things.
And no, it's good to hear thatyou're speaking that sort of way
.
I feel like most goodtechnologies going forwards will
be taking that sort ofcollaborative approach and
finding ways to support oneanother.
It's kind of that's how anactual ecosystem works.
Right, you've got like a birchtree.
I don't know why I'm usingAmerican examples.
You've got a eucalypt treethat's probably going to be
(18:15):
sharing resources with a wattle,and you know.
So these are sort of thingsthat happen in it through the
mycorrhizal network and it'slike you know, this sort of
technology that you're lookingat creating is kind of like that
mycorrhizal network that canconnect different tools and tech
together and be able to supportpeople going forward.
So that's really exciting.
I mean, what are like becauseit's such a sensitive and
(18:37):
complex sort of area cancertreatment.
So I'm curious, like what aresome of the biggest sort of
technical challenges you've hadto face with bringing this to
life sort of technicalchallenges you've had to face
with bringing this to life?
Martin Thompson (18:49):
Yeah, good question.
So because we are using a sortof we're definitely deep tech,
we're using the latesttechnology in sequencing I might
as well tell you about it.
So we use nanopore technologyto sequence.
Ngs is pretty much where you'dcharacterize the current level
(19:11):
of high-tech solutions anddevelopment of taking place.
So NGS is where it's at.
For the most part, we usenanopore because of several
benefits that I mentionedearlier we can get different
sets of data in a single sample,et cetera.
So challenges in this contextmeans working with a new
(19:35):
technology means that there arestill issues, that there are
sources of inaccuracies that arestill being worked out.
So that's a challenge for us iswe've been increasing our
accuracy and our sensitivitystep by step, iteration on
iteration, to get the bestcell-free DNA assay possible.
Now not only when you look atthe tech situation.
(19:57):
You look at the situation ofpancreatic cancer.
It doesn't shed very much andthat means that, compared to
other cancers, you're going tohave a low tumor CT DNA tumor
burden in your system.
So it means there's just not alot of the DNA there.
So you've got to be correctingand thinking about every source
(20:17):
of error possible to make surethat you can actually pick up
that signal.
So that's our approach andthose are the challenges.
Samuel Wines (20:25):
Is it possible to get a false positive with
something like this, or is itmore likely?
Is it possible to get a falsepositive with something like
this, or is it more likely thatyou're going to get a false
negative on reads?
Martin Thompson (20:34):
More likely that you're going to get a false
negative.
Samuel Wines (20:39):
Yeah, that checks out, and so you're saying
earlier on, you're saying thatthe reason why there's not much
of this DNA floating around isthat it tends to form like a
scar and is very kind ofsecluded.
So, given that fact, like I'mtrying to think, is there like
(21:01):
even ways in which you couldtake samples because it's a
blood sample, right, so you cantake that from anywhere and it's
systemic, right?
Are there any other modes orways to do non-invasive sampling
, or is this pretty much thebest way?
Martin Thompson (21:15):
Non-invasive?
No, the current standard forsequencing and characterizing a
pancreatic cancer lesion isthrough fine needle aspiration
biopsy.
So you're going through anendoscope into the stomach and a
needle is inserted through thestomach lining into the pancreas
and they take a solid biopsythat way.
(21:36):
So it's invasive.
It's only done generally, onlydone once.
So no, there aren't really anyother ways.
There's only other biomarkerthat is available is CA19-9, but
that is not specific topancreatic cancer.
That's elevated for a lot ofdifferent cancers.
Samuel Wines (21:58):
Okay, cool.
Yeah, I was wondering.
I guess where I was kind ofleading with that is.
I know that there are some waysin which you can detect things
through breath or other means aswell.
Like I know there are somecancers, that which you can
detect things through breath orother means as well.
Like I know there are somecancers that dogs can pick up on
right.
So I was curious as to whetheror not there was any ability to
pick up or sense things that arelike a smell or a pheromone or
(22:22):
a breath or something like that,because I imagine there would
be modulations.
But, to your point, maybethere's, you know, certain
modulations in that that arejust going to happen, even if
you're sick, and it's what kindof sickness isn't necessarily
going to be easy to ascertainfrom taking those sorts of
samples.
So what does it look like foryou having to bring this from
(22:50):
ideation to actualization?
What are the steps or thepathways?
Like as a med tech company oras a deep tech company, that
because there's so manydifferent things that you've got
to do right.
Like because it's trulytransdisciplinary.
You've got engineering, you'vegot life science, you're going
to have a full tech team andthen there's going to be AI,
like when we speak aboutsupporting transdisciplinary
(23:10):
innovation like this, is itright?
And I imagine there's so manysteps and hurdles that you have
to jump through to be able tomake a valid product, but then
through that, you're also havingto do the clinical trials, I
imagine.
So what does it look like foryou to bring this to market, and
how long is that expected totake?
Martin Thompson (23:31):
Yeah, so it is a complicated and very
interdisciplinary process.
I'm very fortunate that with mybackground, I understand some
of the pathways, such as theregulatory submissions and the
appropriate points ofcollaboration.
So you definitely need aclinical champion.
(23:52):
We're very fortunate to havethat with our co-founder, dr
Julian Choi, an expert inpancreatic cancer Definitely
need your scientific, of course,lead, which we're fortunate to
have with our other co-founder,omar Dabash.
So we've been building up aplan for our clinical studies
(24:14):
which, of course, supports ourregulatory submission.
So we have an upcoming biobankproject and post the biobank
project it's going to be about ayear's worth of longitudinal
clinical studies.
So we're on a path to lookingat going to market in 2027.
(24:39):
So you know, the regulatoryenvironment for medtech devices,
let alone a diagnostic, ispretty significant.
So we have to collect a lot ofdata and a lot of evidence for
that.
So the major challenge for usis definitely the clinical
studies, which we're veryfortunate to have a partner with
to be working on that.
Samuel Wines (25:00):
Well and it's so expensive.
This is one of the things thatI only figured out recently when
we had, like another member,talking about going through this
process.
Like you know the differentphases of the clinical trials as
well, like there's actuallyquite a jump between, you know,
say, phase one, phase two, likeclinical trials, in terms of how
much you have to fork out tomake this happen.
(25:22):
Right, Um, which you know.
Obviously other companies thataren't in the health tech, med
tech space don't have to accountfor Um.
So obviously, when looking atraising, this is all stuff that
you have to be factoring in andobviously, as you said,
partnering with other people whocan help you make it happen
probably is super useful.
Are you thinking of doing thatlocally?
Martin Thompson (25:42):
Yes, yeah, the Australian market, the
Australian ecosystem.
It's a good place to start.
So we've been.
You know we're raising locally,we're talking to partners
locally, we work at localhospitals.
The plan is to launch theproduct locally in Australia,
melbourne first, and grow here,you know, within the first
(26:07):
couple of years, and then launchoverseas.
Samuel Wines (26:11):
That makes sense.
So do you have to go through adifferent regulatory hurdle when
you're going to, say, theStates or to the EU?
Do you have to like, rinse andrepeat what you've done here, or
does this, I don't know, likeit's like.
Is it like uni grades, whereit's like, oh well, if you went
to that uni, that course doesn'tcount.
When you come here, like, is itsomething similar to that?
You have to go through the samepathways in different countries
(26:34):
to meet their different needs.
Martin Thompson (26:36):
Yeah, so they do have their own regulatory
bodies and regulatoryrequirements for submission.
Of course there's the FDA forAmerica and MDR in the EU, so
you don't necessarily have torepeat the whole process.
You can take evidence, theevidence you've collected for
your submission locally, for thesubmission in those markets.
Samuel Wines (27:02):
Yeah, have you?
I mean, it's going to be a wildnext, like three to four years
in America at the moment.
Um, is there going to be anycause?
I know that, like you know, thenumber one thing Trump talks
about is tariffs and taxingeverything coming in.
Like obviously, every singlemed tech device and stuff like
that that are coming fromAustralia or anywhere else are
(27:25):
going to be hit with thesetariffs, which is going to be
interesting.
I'm curious to see how that willchange the landscape and
whether people are more inclinedto want to stay here to set
things up and keep their eyes onAPAC rather than the US, or
whether it's not going to be anyissue at all.
Yeah, I'm really curious to seehow this new presidency will
(27:48):
impact, I guess, deep tech,climate tech, impact-oriented
innovation, given that they'revery keen on advanced tech and
everything.
But it feels like it might begoing a little bit more
nationalist, so I'm curious tosee how that will sort of pan
out.
Has that been something thatyou've been sitting with or
thinking about, or not toophased about that, just focusing
(28:09):
here on Australia?
Martin Thompson (28:10):
So look, we've always had a strategy to launch
into the American market.
We have been focusing mostly onNorth America through Canada,
though, because we haveconnections in Canada.
One of our advisors is Canadianand she heads up.
You know she has somesignificant relationships there
(28:34):
with hospitals and a specificinterest in pancreatic cancer,
so we've been looking at Canadaas a launchpad.
That's where we've beendeveloping our relationships.
But the US market is such a bigmarket We've been in
conversations with distributorsthere so I imagine it's
generally from a salesperspective for us selling into
that market, business as usual.
(28:56):
So yeah, that's been our pathso far and yeah, Cool.
Samuel Wines (29:03):
So looking at the as I just mentioned before, like
Aussie ecosystem, you knowthat's where you're looking at
starting and staying.
Obviously this space isevolving rapidly.
Is there anything like in thisecosystem that whether it's
infrastructure or whether it'spartners and things like that
that you think would helpaccelerate growth that don't
(29:24):
currently exist?
Like?
Is there anything in theecosystem where you're like oh,
it would be great if we had this.
Martin Thompson (29:30):
Yeah, I feel like there's not a lot of
necessarily a lot of grantsavailable for companies like us
that are biotech sort ofdiagnostic companies.
I feel like there's a lot offunding available for the
development of therapies.
There's a lot of.
There's more funding around formedtech companies.
So I just feel like there couldbe more accessible grants for
(29:55):
early stage development ofdiagnostics or even looking at
therapies.
I feel like most of it istargeted towards later stage
companies and then the grantsthat are available for early
stage companies aren't really,you know, for us.
Samuel Wines (30:12):
Understood.
Yeah, they're not necessarilycontextually appropriate.
Um, a lot of the time, but thisis and again, like I'm I'm I'm
smiling because this is a thisis a comment we hear all the
time right, it's like thesegrants are great for people who
aren't like us.
Uh, and then so many of theseum companies and startups trying
to do do things differently andor trying to create things that
(30:33):
currently don't exist, thenthere's not necessarily piles of
grant funding out there forthat.
You know, we're really good athealth tech, med tech, in very
certain specific fields, andit's like we've just doubled
down on that and put all themoney into that rather than
maybe opening or widening theboundaries.
And also, I think, you know, itdoes seem like we have quite a
low risk tolerance here inAustralia, at least from a
(30:57):
government investmentperspective, whereby, to your
point, people are really happyto wait for you to get three or
four steps before the finishline of the marathon and then
grab your hand and run over andbe like, hey, look at this, look
how good we are, rather thanhelping you at the starting line
, let alone helping you do thetraining to prepare for the
marathon.
It does really feel like we tendto prioritize things that are
(31:20):
almost already done, which is abit of a pity.
I feel like that's why we havelost so many technologies
overseas, why so many ideasdon't even, I guess, get off the
ground at all.
So it's a pain to hear that,but I do think that there will
be a lot, of, a lot of changeover the next five to ten years,
(31:40):
with a bit more support comingthat way.
I think we have to if we'rewanting to really amp up this
ecosystem.
So fingers crossed that somemore grants and stuff like that
come around for you.
Yeah, it's a challenge and, asI said, we hear it all the time.
Yeah, it's a challenge.
As I said, we hear it all thetime.
Martin Thompson (31:59):
We're battlers, here we're battlers.
So in the US it's a lot easierto raise money earlier on, but
here sort of, we have to, youknow, really battle for it in
the early stage and take care ofa lot of that risk and raising
money from angels um early on,um, to get to that point.
(32:20):
It'd be nice to have a bit moreof a supportive ecosystem.
Like you know, colabs is such agood supportive ecosystem, um,
but more of like perhaps supportfor a biotech, specific
accelerators and incubators, um,there's not a lot of options, I
I guess.
Maybe a question for you is oneday will we have a collabs uh
incubator accelerator program?
Samuel Wines (32:43):
uh, I mean, yeah, so I'm so glad you asked.
Uh, yeah, we actually we areactually looking at um this
right now.
So there's a couple of uh grantoptions that we've gone in on
to look at creating things likethat, and we do have a couple of
potential partners that we'vegone in on to look at creating
things like that.
And we do have a couple ofpotential partners that we are
finalizing discussions with toessentially create a fund
(33:03):
alongside CoLabs to be able tosupport members and to be able
to try and get these early stageinnovations and ideas off the
ground.
So there's multiple approachesthat we're looking at taking
here.
We're not sure what we'recalling it, whether it's a
venture studio, whether it's aaccelerator, an incubator, it's
it's kind of all of those andnone of those at the same time,
because you know you've alreadygot a company, you, you're
(33:25):
already started, so it'sdefinitely not a studio for you.
It would be more of like anincubation or acceleration.
But then say there's somethingthat we want to really address.
Say, like one of our members islooking at growing kelp and
we're like, great, well, we'dlove to be able to use that kelp
to create plastic alternativeproducts.
So then maybe we spin up acompany to then buy that
(33:46):
feedstock from that companywho's already a member.
So like this industrial ecologyapproach.
So I really don't know whatwe're going to call this thing a
venture platform, a venturebuilder?
I'm not too sure.
I don't want to get too stuckup on words because sometimes if
you use something so abstract,people are like so it's like an
accelerator and you'd be like,no, it's not those, it's
something different.
But everyone always has aperspective or a view on this
(34:09):
right, which is alwaysinteresting.
But yes, there will besomething coming soon and yes,
we have, like I guess, our eyeson quite a few of our members
that we'd love to be able tosupport along the way, because,
yeah, just seeing so many of youin all the time battling just
trying to make things happen, Imean that's why we exist to make
it as effective, likefinancially, to be able to get
into the space and start doingthings.
(34:31):
But totally acknowledge thatthis is the space is one element
, but there still needs to bethe resource and to be able to
support people to do the thing,and so much of founders time and
not actually spent doing thetech or doing the thing, it's
spent actually like almost injust constant crisis mode of
like I just need to keep thisthing afloat.
I just need to keep this thingafloat, should just just like,
(34:51):
go over here but one more found.
I've just got a little bit ofmoney over here and you know
these things like that's great,but if that pressure was taken
off, you could go further, somuch faster, which a lot of
these things need to be able tobring them to market and, I
guess, make the positive impactthat we want to see in the world
.
So, yeah, no, I get you, it's achallenge.
So, fingers crossed, we canhave something up and running in
(35:14):
the next sort of six to 12months 100%.
Martin Thompson (35:17):
I really appreciate that.
You understand the needs andyou know what we're all going
through and the fact that youhave that experience, you know
that sounds excellent.
Samuel Wines (35:29):
Yeah, well, it's all everything that we've done
has been to your point beforeabout the biodesign with the
challenge led, everything thatwe've done has been to your
point before about the, thebiodesign with the challenge led
, everything that we've done.
Like, we started this byfinding out that people wanted
space.
Um, because there was acommunity science lab that
people are asking to rent duringthe day because they're like
there's nowhere we can get space, and so so this was born from
(35:50):
that um, and then, as we, aswe're doing this, then now
people like great, you got thespace, but we don't have the
money.
People come to you and beinglike we'll give you a stake in
the company just to have accessto the lab space, which
originally we were trying to beas hands-off IP as possible,
just trying to be likeSwitzerland, like come in do
whatever, we're not going to tryand take anything but realizing
(36:11):
that people do need resourcingand support to be able to get
these ideas off the ground.
Some of them are great ideas butto your point, maybe and then
this is not necessarily to tryand rip on the ecosystem, but
maybe there might not be enoughtechnical expertise to be able
to understand that this is agood thing this device, whereas
this one over here might bereally easy to sell and talk
(36:32):
about, but it's actuallyprobably not what we need in the
world.
But that'll get 10x the fundingbecause it can be clearly
communicated to someone who hascapital and they can see
short-term returns on it ratherthan the long-term positive
impact of these other things.
So it's a fascinating thing toperceive, like over the past
four or five years, and I thinkwe're pretty well, I guess,
(36:52):
armed with the insight of beingon the ground trying to help
people build things, and we'vekind of seen so many different
patterns and processes going onthat we feel like we're pretty
well positioned to be able tounderstand how to effectively
support that with partnershipsfrom capital providers and stuff
like that.
So we are very excited to beable to bring that to life and
(37:12):
thanks for drawing that out ofme.
I wasn't expecting to uh to talkabout that at all on this uh,
on this podcast.
So I feel like I'm co-optingyour podcast.
We're meant to be talking aboutwhat you're getting up to.
It was on my mind, looking back, like knowing what you know now
, having gone through thisjourney for what's been almost
(37:33):
12 months almost yeah, yeah,what, what?
what if you'd known what youknow now before embarking on
this journey?
Like what, what do you wish youcould have done differently or
factored in?
Martin Thompson (37:46):
or is there anything like that where you're
like oh, people are much moreaccepting of your um, your, your
challenges, and of yourbusiness and of your ideas than
you think.
So very early on when I startedthis, from my previous
experience, I knew that it canbe done right.
(38:09):
Where there is a problem, wherethere is a significant need,
you can address that need.
You can save lives and createsuccessful business model as
well.
Um, I think, and with somethingas big as cancer, it is so like
or I don't know can I go andaddress that?
I feel like it's a bit silly togo and do that.
Like people are going to belike what on earth are you doing
(38:29):
?
Why would you try and do that?
And I will tell you that acouple of people did say that to
me early on just random peoplelike what do you think you're
doing?
Um, why are you doing that?
You think you can, uh, do dosomething for cancer, or some
sort of sly comments like that.
And it's just like we just kepton persisting and we found that
(38:50):
there are actually so manysuper experienced and super
supportive people.
So just keep pushing forwardwith your idea.
Don't listen to the haters.
If there's a problem that needssolving, then there are many
people out there who support you, and there is definitely a way
(39:10):
and just keep persisting andgrowing.
Samuel Wines (39:14):
Yeah, I feel like, again, it's always a bit of a
giggle moment.
But the exact same thing, right, like what you know?
That classic like what right doyou have to be doing what
you're doing?
And it's like, well, none youknow.
But what right does anyone haveto do what they're doing?
Right?
Just because someone's done likea 10 year tenureship focusing
on this exact specific area, itdoesn't mean that they
(39:34):
necessarily have any morecredibility or can perceive a
situation any better.
Sometimes it can actually beworse through the process of
like kind of that reductionisteducation where you're so
focused on one tiny thing.
It's like that might be greatand it might be really good for
research, but sometimes it can'tbe.
It's maybe not as appropriatefor if you're trying to do an
innovation, where it needs to beway more dynamic and
(39:57):
design-ally approach to science,where you're constantly
designing, testing, iteratingand the variables might not be
staying constant at all, and thegolden rule of science is keep
all the variables constant andthen maybe change one thing to
be able to see how it is gettingaffected.
So, yeah, I really resonatewith that whole doing things
(40:17):
differently or doing thingswithout having the pedigree and
just being like whatever, likeif there's a challenge that's
big enough, that you see needsto happen in the world.
Going and facing that, I think,is massive, and so many of our
startups that have been the mostsuccessful the founders don't
have any background in science,none at all.
(40:40):
They're just like.
This is a problem that I see,and I will find the right people
and we'll make this happen,because this is something that I
care about.
This is how I'm going to showup in the world and this is what
I'm going to do to make apositive impact, and that is
such a more powerful way to goabout it.
I think personally and I findthat sometimes as well like not
being confined by a singlediscipline or way of looking at
the world can be reallybeneficial for bringing these
(41:02):
things to life, because peopleare going to be coming at it
from a very different approachand when you bring all these
different people together,that's when, you know, really
insightful things can emerge.
Riffing on all of this, giventhe fact that it is such a
battle, what motivates you?
You know that is such a battle.
What motivates you, you know,and there's so many challenges
and regulatory hurdles what isit that motivates you with your
(41:23):
work and what keeps you going.
Martin Thompson (41:27):
It's something I'm passionate about, it's
something that I like doing,that I feel good about that.
I feel like I'm making adifference in people's lives.
There's so many.
Life is hard right, let alonethat you want to be struck down
by this terrible illness whereyou just don't have a chance of
addressing it and the fact thatit affects so many people.
(41:48):
The third biggest killer of allcancers is going to rise to the
second biggest killer of allcancers.
This needs to be addressed.
It's a problem that we all facecollectively, together, as
humanity.
It's one of those.
You know it's a big problem andyou know we people don't
deserve to suffer through that,as I've seen through my own
(42:09):
family experience.
So you know that motivates me,that that we can make that
change, that we can make thatchange, that we can build the
world better no, I love that.
Samuel Wines (42:17):
I love that.
Um, is there anything likeaside from this, is there
anything in the the bio-leddesign and innovation space that
really inspires you or that youfind really awesome, like
whether it's you know anothermember here doing something or
just some stuff overseas?
Is there anything where you'relike, damn, that's cool?
Martin Thompson (42:45):
I think.
I think they're all pretty cooland motivational.
You know, even you mentionedthe people growing kelp before.
It's just exceptionally goodand interesting ideas that I
never would have thought ofbefore, that that someone had a
personal connection to, and turnthat into a business.
Because, as you mentionedbefore, like research on its own
doesn't mean that people haveaccess to the product and the
service.
It needs to be translated intoa business.
(43:06):
That's the sort of society welive in.
So to see these people takingextremely unique ideas and
turning them into products andservices that people can access,
I guess you know, like CorticalLabs is very inspiring.
The journey that they've gonethrough and it's just such a
(43:29):
unique product as well.
Right, it's just so crazy andunique and addressing such an
interesting need and to see howthey've grown and also Magic
Valley.
That's actually something thatI think is really, really a big
need, because I like to eat meat, but I would much prefer to eat
(43:50):
meat that was not taken from aliving animal.
I would very much prefer to eatmeat that was grown in a lab
through meat cells.
So I think that that isexceptional.
If we can have that meat in themarket, that would be amazing.
I think that's so cool.
Samuel Wines (44:05):
He actually just.
Paul just did a podcast withChris Williamson which I just
blew my mind when he said that.
I was like what?
So I don't know who's doing hisPR.
They're doing a good job.
But yeah, there is some reallyexciting things happening here
and it's pretty wild that we getto just sort of all hang out
(44:25):
and like have a conversation,like last week with Hon.
It's been nice having you comearound, because I know how
you're, not, you don't liveclose, you know you're what is
it Like?
A car, tram, a train, a ferry?
Martin Thompson (44:38):
uh, yeah, I live around the bay, but I'm
very fortunate that the ferrydoes go.
It takes like an hour and 10minutes, so it's about the same
as like living in, like thesecond ring and getting a train.
So I was very fortunate thatthe ferry exists, otherwise I'd
probably be very difficult toaccess yeah, yeah, no, well it's
.
Samuel Wines (44:54):
I really appreciate like your commitment
to trying to come to all ofthese sorts of things and it
does really feel like.
I feel like I see you light upwhen you get to be around other
people doing interesting things.
So, um, no, it's been apleasure having you as a part of
the family.
Um, is there anything like anysort of last parting words or
anything from our perspectivethat you want to share, like any
(45:14):
updates from your team or justanything at all?
Martin Thompson (45:20):
Well, look, we're approaching the Christmas
period now so we're sort of, youknow, we are trying to tie up
our ends before the end of theyear.
Tying up our ends includes, youknow, some fundraising that
we've been doing, some new teammembers that we're bringing on,
so that's exciting, you know, tobring more people into our
immediate family.
(45:40):
But just appreciate so much thework you guys do here at CoLabs
in supporting us, just thededication to helping us all and
growing the ecosystem andsupporting us and also the
culture that you bring.
The culture is importantbecause it makes you feel at
ease, makes you feel happy whenyou come to work.
(46:02):
So it's kind of like you knowthis is our workplace and we
also feel happy coming into ourcollective workplace where we
work with other people as well.
So exciting times for us,excited to be here, feel
supported, feel like we're in agood place and we're looking
forward to a big year of growthnext year.
(46:23):
So, yeah, thanks.
Samuel Wines (46:25):
No worries and thanks for thanks for finding
time to sit down as well.
I really appreciate it.
Yeah, it's been awesome havingyou on the show and great to
finally get this one done.
It's it's been like six monthsof like, yeah, next time this
time I'm surfing, I'm over here,so, uh, no, it's good that
we've been able to make ithappen and, um, no, I really
appreciate all the work you'redoing, so thanks so much yeah,
(46:46):
thanks, sam, really appreciateit, ciao thank you for tuning in
to another episode of thestrange attractor.
Uh, yeah, a bit of a short oneand a sweet one this time round.
Um, we've got a couple morecoming up soon with some of our
other new members and we'llprobably start branching out
(47:07):
into additional content as well.
Um, I guess that systems viewof life, transdisciplinary
thinking, bioregional learningcenter, all of these other sort
of interesting areas and stuffthat we're curious about.
We're going to be doing alittle bit more of that now that
we've sort of got through mostof the members that we've
(47:27):
currently got.
So stay tuned.
I think it's going to be reallyfun, as we start to branch out
the content that we create,speaking a little bit more as
well to like some of thechallenge areas and things that
we see in the world, that mightbe fun to try and address those
generator functions of problemsthat we face in the world using
(47:49):
that complexity-informed,wide-boundary thinking systems
view of life approach.
So, yeah, there'll be probablya few more of those coming up
soon and, yeah, we're alwayscurious to hear your feedback.
So just reach out, let us knowwhat you think and we look
forward to welcome you back tothe channel sometime soon.
Bye.
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