The Future of Female Healthcare with Ariella Heffernan-Marks from Ovum AI | #11 - The Strange Attractor

Episode Transcript
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Samuel Wines (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Strange Attractor, an
experimental podcast from CoLabs, a transdisciplinary innovation
hub and biotechnologyco-working lab based in
Melbourne, australia.
I'm your co-host, sam Wines,and alongside my co-founder,
andrew Gray, we'll delve deepinto the intersection of biology
, technology and society throughthe lens of complexity and

(00:22):
systems thinking.
Join us on a journey ofdiscovery as we explore how
transdisciplinary innovation,informed by life's regenerative
patterns and processes, couldhelp us catalyze a transition
towards a thriving future forpeople and the planet.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of the Strange Attractor

(00:47):
.
This week, we sat down withAriella Heffernan-Marks, the CEO
and founder of Ovum.
So what makes Ovum AI kind ofawesome is the fact that it
allows you to track theevolution of your body, to make
better evidence-informeddecisions about your health and
well-being, and then being ableto share that sort of
information with your doctors orwhoever else that you're

(01:08):
relating to, so that you cancollectively, I guess, come up
with better outcomes for you asa female body person.
We think this is such anawesome technology, and I guess
that's why we brought Arielaonto the podcast to have a chat
about it.
We highly recommend as wellgoing on and having a look at
their website, because they aredoing a pilot test of the app at

(01:31):
the moment.
By the time this podcast comesout, that should be live, so
please do jump on and have alook.
Yeah, we think this issomething that could be a really
awesome asset for those whowant to.
I guess, gain a bit better of anunderstanding of their overall
health and wellbeing as a female.
We hope you enjoyed thisconversation with Ariella and

(01:53):
thanks so much for listening.
Ariella, welcome to the StrangeAttractor.
How have you been?
What's been going on lately?

Ariella Heffernan-Marks (02:01):
I've been good.
So yes, just made the move fromSydney to Melbourne, left
clinical medicine to now runOvum AI full time, which is very
exciting, daunting, learning alot.

So that was recent that you made that transition.

Yeah, yeah.
So finished internship inJanuary with Jan.
I was working on Ovum for mythird year of med school through
third year, fourth yearinternship and then decided to
make the big jump, which isobviously really daunting when
everyone's talking aboutresidency and the training
programs.
I'm like I'm going to just gorun an AI company, so bye.

What did your so cause cause?
You also went through um thehealth 10 X UNSW program 23?
.

No, I think it was 22.
It was a pre-accelerator.
It was in my final year, Iremember, because it coincided
with my final med exams.
Oh gosh it was a big few weeks,months.
Yeah, I can imagine.

Yeah, what was it like mentioning that you were
going to go down this pathway?
Because imagine and this is aconversation we have with a lot
of founders is that it's peoplekind of look at you being like
what, what are you doing?
like you did all this effort tostudy med, or you did all this
effort to do you know whateverthat um pathway might be, and a
lot of people seem to think like, oh, were you throwing it all

(03:20):
away for for this thing likewhat, what?
What did find was, I guess, theexperience of going through
that.

Yeah, you know, you said it perfectly.
That's exactly what happenedwhen I started doing, I guess,
numerous accelerators and reallydelving into the idea of what
Oven was.
Back in third year, I rememberyou know people saying but
you've decided to be a doctor,like why would you leave?
Literally that's what they said.
Why would you leave to do this?
And third year, I remember youknow people saying but you've
decided to be a doctor, like why, why would you leave?
Literally that's what they said.

(03:48):
Why would you leave to do this?
Like you're just making it'sharder for yourself.
And then I think, as the ideakind of came together and as I
started to have a prototype andthe idea became a reality, there
was actually a lot of support,even in my final year, kind of,
we have these portfolio exams.
You have to give this wholespeech about what you've learned
in four years and what you'regoing to do.

(04:08):
And I really said this is whatI'm going to do.
And it's because of all theskills I learned in medicine
whether that's leadership,working in a team, communication
, innovation, research.
Actually, there's a lot of keypoints you have to meet
throughout your studies inmedicine that lend to being a
really good founder or ceo of acompany.

So so glad you said that, because I think the
exact same thing so much ofscience is a transferable skill
when it comes to starting astartup.
Like the research side ofthings is so it's pretty much
that's pretty much the wholepart of starting it.
Like when you're first startinga startup is literally like
okay, I'm gonna go out, do someresearch, I'm gonna collect

(04:50):
information, I'm gonna analyzeit, observe and then iterate on
it.
It's like design meets scienceis kind of the way I think of
like when you're starting astartup yeah and yeah people
don't realize that you you'retrained to be like this as a, as
a doctor or as a scientist likeyou actually have so many
foundational skills that cantranslate across so easily.
And on top of that I love thatyou called that out that

(05:12):
initially people are like whatare you doing?
What are you doing?
And then eventually they'relike okay, no, I get it.
I understand and I imagine foryou and I don't want to put
words in your mouth, mouth, butat least this is what happened
with us with CoLab is like youknow, I could have gone down a
conventional pathway, I couldhave done anything else.
Um, I chose the harder pathwayand I chose it.
Or like we collectively choseit.

(05:34):
From a perspective of well,individually we might not be
able to change the world right,but if we can make space to
support a whole bunch ofdifferent people so that they
can then become the people theywant to be in service to the
world or people on the planet,that statistically makes much
more of a chance of actuallyhaving good things happen in the

(05:54):
world, rather than just likedoing a conventional sort of job
and it's like yeah, it'spainful, it's definitely a bit
of a suffer fest, but in thelong run.
If you have that vision and youcan actualize it, you know that
there's going to be a lot morepositive benefit that can come
from it, even if there is a bitof a sacrifice and it's not your
traditional pathway yeah, no, Icouldn't agree more.

And I love, I love the term suffer
fest.
It kind of makes it fun at thesame time.
You know, it's like a sufferfestival, it's like you know,
and it is a bit like that, butit's, it's, yeah, I think,
lending back to creating changein within a system or for a
population of people, right likein the hospital.
Um, yes, I could have followedthe conventional pathway and

(06:36):
helped probably hundreds, maybeover my career, of people, um,
and there's obviously thatreally great interpersonal, you
know, connection between you andthat individual patient.
But I felt, in terms of thehospital and the healthcare
system, I couldn't really makemuch change.
I was kind of stuck within thatsystem.
I was stuck within thebureaucracy and the
administrative kind of politicsand I'd always been interested

(07:00):
in.
I guess my background beforemed was law, science, so
politics and I guess the lawlended me to be involved in, you
know, even during med school,in writing constitutions for my
medical society, like I wasalways about being involved with
AMSA, writing policies on COVID, for vulnerable populations.
So it always lended to how canI use medicine to actually help

(07:21):
populations.
And I had this idea.
I was like, well, this isactually a way that I can help
potentially millions of womenand that was what really drove
me to leave.
Sorry, that conventional path,like it did for you, was I can't
in this, in this conventionaljob or this conventional pathway
, I actually can't make thechange that I feel I need to or
can make, and that was, for me,what I felt I needed to do.

Yeah, I love that.
It reminds me of a quote fromBucky Fuller.
It's like don't try and changethe system, create or design a
new one that makes the old oneobsolete.
And I feel like, especiallywith what you're looking at
doing, which we will get to, no,it's okay, I'm loving this.
Yeah, I totally acknowledge wedidn't quite go there to begin
with, but non-linearconversationalist yeah, exactly
um, but yeah, I guess it's.

(08:06):
That's the way I kind of.
You mentioned the word systemmultiple times here as well and
I do wonder, like, throughoutyour work, have you stumbled
across much research into likesystem science and all of this
sort of stuff?
Because I know that from ourperspective, uh, a lot of what
we do is grounded totally inliving systems thinking and
acknowledge theinterconnectedness from, like
the biological, cognitive,social and ecological lenses of

(08:27):
looking at life and how they allinterrelate.
And, like you know, I know gabomate talks a lot about the
biopsychosocial model and, yeah,like are these things like?
And you're saying, like youhave the law background, like it
sounds like you're quite atransdisciplinary thinker.
Then, like you're coming fromthe science, the med, the law,
yeah, has that informed yourperspective?
and practice like does this,does that give you disciplinary
thinker?
Then?
Like, you're coming from thescience, the med, the law yeah,
has that informed yourperspective?

(08:47):
And practice Like does this,does that give you multiple
lenses to perceive the world ina in like, almost like
technicolor, rather than justthe single colored lens of, say,
med?
Did that help you withco-creating Ovum and getting to
where you are now and just beingable to perceive things more
holistically?

Yeah, it's super interesting because I
think you never really reflectsometimes on how you cognitively
maybe perceive the world.
Right, you just perceive whatyou perceive.
So it's actually a really niceinsight to hear from you and
make me think about.
And I do think, yes, becausethe law and the way you're
taught yeah, you're taught tothink in the law is very much,

(09:24):
um, analytical andevidence-based.
In different way to it is tomedicine, um, and then science I
think lends to more innovationand creativity maybe than than
medicine as such, becausemedicine's really about what
does the meta-analysis show?
You know, like the, thecreativity, the innovation's
been done for you, and then youneed to apply that to the

(09:45):
patient that's in front of you.
Of course, there is an elementof diagnostic creativity, right?
So really trying not todiagnostic anchor and think
about one thing as being thediagnosis for a patient who's
undifferentiated, so that meansthey're presenting with a
symptom that we don't knowwhat's causing it, and I think,
yes, together that's allowed meto, I think, probably look at a
problem from a, you know,regulatory, legal point of view

(10:08):
and ethical point of view than acreative, you know, kind of
more science like how can wetest this hypothesis in the real
world and a lot of what I'vedone is OVM has been trial and
testing.
So whether that's doing 150surveys with women between 16
and 70 and really understandingwhat they need, what they would
pay, what their experiences are,running focus groups with over

(10:29):
50 women and now doing a PhD atthe end of the year, which will
be with three differenthospitals which I won't go into
names yet, trialling over themin a very clinical,
evidence-based setting, andthat's my medical hat coming on.
Yeah, where's the literaturereview on this?

(10:49):
Where's the meta-analysis onthis showing how ovum can
actually quantitatively changewomen's engagement in their
healthcare?

That's really cool .
I did not know you were goingto do a PhD.
Yes, great.
That sounds really excitingbecause I imagine that yeah, I
mean, even if you took the, theorganization out of the mix and
look at it from like a researchperspective, I don't know anyone
who's doing any research on aiimpacts for, like, female health
and well-being, so like that'slike a, you're creating a

(11:17):
solution to be able to supportthat, but you're also doing the
research alongside it, and Ifind that's quite an interesting
and holistic approach as well.

I couldn't not do some kind of
research with Ovum as well asobviously, you know your
commercial research right,that's your community-based
setting and that's great forinvestors, but at the end of the
day, this needs to be acceptedwithin the medical community as
well.
To have this, because you know,what I'm trying to achieve is
shared decision making for womengoing into appointment feeling
they can advocate for themselvesthrough improved health

(11:50):
literacy and a doctor sayinggreat, okay, let's share this
conversation, let's let's decideon these things together, and
that will activate change better, because we we know when we're
looking at steps of change,someone needs to be on the
pathway to change to actuallystart activating it.
So you've got pre-contemplationcontemplation.
I'm sure you've heard of these.

(12:11):
So having shared decision-makingand having a woman feel like
she can go into that appointmentand be part of that decision
Sorry, kicking the microphone Tostart her change journey in
whatever stage of her healthspan she's in allows for more
preventative health behaviours.
So for me it meant reallyproving in a hospital setting

(12:33):
that Oven was achieving that andthat would get more clinical or
, you know, not just doctorsallied health on board, which I
already had, you know, so muchsupport from before.
We've even done this, so Ican't wait to actually have the
data points.

To me it makes total sense because what you're
trying to do it's a win-win-winit's a win for the providers,
it's a win for the people usingthe app and then it's a win for
the furthering of the knowledgeas a whole, because people can
have more informed insightsabout their health and wellbeing
.
So, yeah, it's really excitingto just see how considered
you've been with this approach.

(13:08):
I tend to find this happenswith almost every female founder
.
You sit down and have a chatwith the level of thinking that
has to go into coming up with anidea just to get past the
biases that, let's say, a malefounder might not have to go
through.
I always find that whenever Ihave a conversation, it's like
so much more thought out andlike, yeah, you've literally

(13:28):
like you've really come at thisfrom every angle you can think
of yes.

No, definitely have to be very, very
thorough, very detailed.
I think for me it's beenprobably, if we're touching on
the female founder side ofthings has been being a female
founder in the AI space, so Ithink that's where I've had to
really delve into more andreally prove out more than maybe

(13:54):
other men in AI.
When Ovum started, there was noAI, so it evolved.
As you do with any idea, youpivot right, you adapt as
there's new technology, asthere's things that can make it
better, and it actually just metat a really critical time point
in our product timeline whereit was here's a prototype, we've
got the whole idea.
Great.

(14:14):
Oh, okay, open access, chat,gbts come out.
Okay, what can we do with this?
And we created an even bettersolve to our problem.
But I was already pitching, Iwas already having conversations
before AI and after, and likethe shift in the conversation.

I can imagine was massive.

It was and I actually spoke about it.
I was on a panel at DigitalHealth Festival and I did touch
on this is when I was now comingon as a female founder in AI.
The focus was not on my domainexpertise as a doctor, my domain
expertise as a female, havingdealt with chronic health
problems, having tried tonavigate the healthcare system
with really good health literacyand still struggling, it was on

(14:56):
why are you doing AI?
How do you know how to do AI?
Drilling on the really deeptech and I'm like I got like 10
AI engineers that are workingwith who are invested actually
financially.
You know them, um, and that'swhere the focus was and I get
you know.
You know people need to knowhow much I know, but it was.

(15:17):
It was more of a condescending,undermining kind of approach
where it wasn't balanced acrossmy other skill sets or anything
else I could contribute.

That was actually quite significant yeah, I can, I
just, I'm just I'm not laughingbecause it's a good thing to
laugh about I'm laughing.
I'm laughing because I'm justlike we just see this happen
quite a lot um and it, and it issuch a shame that it's still
the case, but I think I I don'thave the answer to that right no

(15:47):
but I think that at leastacknowledging it and having
conversations about it is auseful thing, and hopefully then
those who are in thosepositions of whether or not
they're deciding whether or notyou're worthy of funding or
something of the likes canrealize that, yeah, like you
don't, like.
You don't expect a normal, likea normal male founder to go and
do everything themselves.

(16:08):
You're gonna delegate, you'regonna.
It's no different in that sortof exactly like you're gonna
build a team around this.
You're probably gonna get a ctoon.
You're probably gonna get likeproper ai dev people on board
that's already in.

It's already in place, so you've
already got it like exactly.
So it's it's.

It's.
It's fascinating that that thatthat happens, and I'm sorry
that it has to happen.

But it's um, I think, yeah, no, what
I've come to the conclusion isit's actually and I don't think
it's just with female foundersin ai, I think it's female
founders in general, it's theeducation piece, right, I think
and also with female foundersdealing with fem, fem tech or
women's based solutions.
I think there's a double whammy.
It's all about the education.

(16:47):
I don't think that the genderinequity or I guess the comments
that come across sometimes seemmalicious.
I don't actually think they are.
I think it comes to a lack ofunderstanding and a lack of
being able to empathise withcertain things, and that comes
down to education.
Knowledge is power and I think,as much as there's so much done

(17:09):
for female founders, I think atthe moment to try and raise
awareness of this inequity, thelack of capital that's being
given more programs that areliterally designated for female
founders.
It's great the ecosystem'sacknowledging that, but what the
ecosystem isn't doing iseducating and actually educating
the men on what a femalefounder is really struggling
with.
How are certain commentsperceived?

(17:30):
What are actually commercialissues within?
You know the femtech space?
Um, because I think there's alot of.
You know there's barriers whenit comes to talking about, um,
the commercial benefit of awomen's based solution, except
now.
The gender health gap reportcame out and it was fantastic, I
was going to say your slides onthis, like you blew that out of

(17:50):
the water.

I remember watching, because we actually
met at the Lift Hair Foundationand just hearing you articulate
everything perfectly, I'm like,yeah, wow, okay, this is going
to do very, very well, and Ican't think of one person who I
know that is, you know,female-bodied who would not want
to utilize something like that.
I feel like it's a veryreoccurring thing that they

(18:13):
don't.
Like a lot of females don'tfeel seen and heard, especially
if their doctor's a male,because it's like, how can he
even relate to these things?
A lot of the time it's like, oh, you're probably just
complaining about nothing.
It's like, oh, you're probablyjust complaining about nothing.
It's like, no, it's a chronicissue.
Like there's so many thingsthere and then, as you said, you
called it out.
You're like look, you'remissing 50 of the market here
like these are things.
Femtech is going to be massive,your, your entire, it's half the

(18:36):
population of the world andit's like but it's just not
being looked at or observed oracknowledged and that, again,
you know, probably is becausethat a lot of the people in the
positions of power where theycan fund these things, they are
of more than likely going to belike older men.
They're not going to understandit.
There might be a bit of fear ordoubt or uncertainty around it
and these questions that you'rementioning, I don't necessarily

(18:58):
think they're from bad placeswell, I think a lot of the time.
It's just they actually mightnot know yes, exactly so
fascinating to like.
If that's something that youare interested in, I feel like
it would be really cool.
This is another time yeah, wecan have a chat about like how
could we get a couple of otherfemale founders to talk about
this, and like what would itlook like to be able to try and
get a whole bunch of vcs in theroom?

(19:18):
To actually have thisconversation.
Yeah, because I think there'ssomething here that should
probably be spoken about moreopenly and candidly.

Yeah, I think that I was actually at
IDA.
The co-founder of Clues Houseor Airbnb.
She was here recently forDigital Health Festival and
there was a few other Femtechfounders.
For anyone who doesn't know her, she coined the term Femtech so
that was her phrase back in2008, 2007.
And it was great.
It was meant to be just a bunchof women coming together and

(19:47):
talking about what they weredoing and how and problems, and
it was great.
But what we talked about was aFemtech society or I guess, yeah
, society would probably be thebest word.
But there's a lot of Femtechfounders who are female-based
founders who would love to cometogether and, I think, educate
and, you know, share, I guess,the journeys they've been on and

(20:09):
the struggles they've had, anddefinitely, you know easily, you
know, educate anyone in theroom.
I guess it didn't have to evenjust be male vcs.
I'm sure there's plenty ofwomen who may not fully
understand it as well.

It can be for anyone who wants to learn yes,
and there's just patterns ofbehavior that are baked in
socially right and that's likewhat we're talking about before.
You don't know the way you'renecessarily thinking, unless
you're actively practicingself-reflective consciousness
and thinking what is myworldview, what are my beliefs?
what data do I draw from to theninform, like like from the
observations, to then inform myworldview, like you don't

(20:44):
necessarily notice that likeladder of inference.
So I think, yeah, findingplaces to be able to call that
out and bring that to light Ithink is important.
Maybe we should, maybe I shouldask you what you're doing Up
here.

I'm loving the conversation, so it's
fine.

What happened?
What inspired you to start OVbefore it was over my eye?

okay, so I guess go back.
It was my third year of medschool it's during covid so I
was going between new southwales and victoria.
I was in primary care, I was ined and then hospital settings,
but mainly in obstetrics andgynecology, because that's what
I wanted to do.
I had my background before that, during law science was
reproductive biology, embryology.
So that was really my drivingfactor to leave the law and go

(21:28):
and pursue medicine.
So I was doing a lot of thoseplacements and I was in regional
, remote but also urban parts ofboth states and I realized that
fundamentally, women werecompletely disempowered with
their healthcare, regardless ofsocioeconomic status.
I realized it was due to fearof the healthcare system, so
often going to Dr Google orTikTok rather than their

(21:48):
healthcare provider, and thatwas due to and I think you
touched on this, you know beingdismissed, marginalised, often
misdiagnosed, so really nottrusting the healthcare system.
Secondly, women were strugglingto navigate a really siloed and
fragmented approach to theirhealthcare.
So on average it takes fiveyears for any Australian woman
to be diagnosed with a generalhealth condition and then

(22:08):
something more complex like endoseven to 12 years.
So you know, you just thinkabout that.
The Australian healthcaresystem is pretty good and that's
a really long time for someoneto be suffering with something
and impacting their quality oflife Remember it's health span,
not lifespan.
And then thirdly was women werereceiving treatments and
diagnostics that were notreflective of a woman's
physiology they're reflective ofmen's because they've been

(22:29):
excluded from clinical trialsfor decade.
That was due to reproductiveburden.
So I knew that we needed tobasically create a solution that
empowered women with theirhealth care by improving health
literacy and engage them more inpreventive health activities,
including engaging in the healthcare system, whilst at the same
time integrating all theirhealth information to create a
longitudinal pattern thatallowed us to pick up on better

(22:51):
diagnostic patterns and earlierdiagnoses, and then feedback
that longitudinal dataanonymously back into research
to actually improve treatmentsand diagnostics for women.
So this is in my third.
So at this time, ai was notbeing spoken about in the way it
was now.
And then from there I went andI spoke to Femtech Collective so
that's a great organizationwhich support any Femtech

(23:14):
founders and I said this is myidea.
Is this something?
I said, yeah, we've definitelygot a market.
There's no one doing anythinglike this.
I spoke to all the doctors, allmidwives, patients to
understand like is thissomething that would help, is
this useful?
Actually, I did forget to saysomething.
It was really, I guess, whenthe actual moment happened,
where I had the idea, which Ithink is a great story.

(23:37):
I was in a.
We're doing children checks, sosix-week checks and you have
the baby book.

There's different colours in different states but
blue book in New South Wales.
I honestly don't even know whatthis is.

So you have a blue book.
It's like literally just abound little folder and you
track their growth and theirvaccines and everything.
And I said, why doesn't thatexist for women?
And that was the idea initially, and then it was like picking
up on all that, doing all theresearch as well, delving in I

(24:08):
remember my first pitch.
Deck the people at femtechcollective were like you've just
got way too much research inthese slides.
I'm like this is not a.
This is not an academic uhpresentation.
So I had to really tone it down.
But as I delved into theresearch I realized just how
prominent these problems were.
I was just shocked, so, um,realizing that you know, 54% of
women over the age of 15 have achronic health condition in
Australia, and by 65 that's 87%.

(24:28):
It's just not good enough.
Anyway, I get sidetracked.
So from there, I developed apitch deck, I kind of played
around with Figma myself and putsomething together, and I did
the Cicada Innovations Softwareas a Medical Device course.
It was a three-day course.
I couldn't recommend it morehighly to anyone who's got a
health tech idea and wants tounderstand commercialisation.

Fantastic.
They're so, so good with theirprogramming.
Oh my.

God, so good.
And I learnt from, like, theregulations, the legal side,
investors.
I didn't know what VCs were.
I didn't know what B2C or B2B2C.
I was like, well, what is this?
I was medically trained orlegally trained, and so I
learned in three days, learned alot.
And I met a lot of otherfounders a lot further along
their journey and I was alreadypitching her to like get up

(25:15):
there and pitch her idea likethat.
And there was one woman who wasdoing VR for PTSD.
She said these developers areincredible.
Go to them, they're expensivebut go.
I was like okay, and I pitchedto Nakatomi, who are now,
they're actually now a venturestudio.
So they evolved since Iactually started with them, but
they co-invested with Ovumreally early, so I pitched the

(25:36):
idea.
They then have been from ideato prototype to now the pilot
version and likely coming on aCTO, cpo and that team.
I have AI developers, I havedesign, marketing and data
analysis business strategy youname it.

Oh, that's so cool .
Yeah, I had no idea.
So this is great.
So I guess that is actually anarea that we're super fascinated
by, like Deep Tech VentureStudio.
What could that look like?
Yeah.
So I'd love to understand moreabout what that journey's like,
because for those who don'tunderstand what a venture studio
is, yeah, it's quite differentto an accelerator or an
incubator.
Yes, could you maybe go into alittle bit about what that

(26:14):
experience has been like for?

you and how that kind of is structured
well, I guess for me it wasn'tso structured because, uh, they
weren't a venture studio when Ifirst joined them but I think, I
think.
I think the plan was true, sothey'd already co-invested in
one other company, because theywere in a venture studio when I
first joined them.
Oh right, of course, but Ithink the plan was too so they'd
already co-invested in oneother company, which is Ruminati
.
I'm not sure if you've heard ofthem.

(26:35):
They're a big ag tech company.
My belief is they're involvedwith soil selection and whatnot.
Sorry I could be wrong.
So just yeah, but that wastheir first company they
actually co-invested with.
So they've already been workingon, you know, doing a lot of
deep tech stuff.
Other companies, but it was more, you know, just paid for and I
guess they believed in me.
So it was pitching, workingwith them, getting them to

(26:56):
obviously co-invest, so thathelped cover a lot of production
costs I was also raising, so Idid get early investment which
helped that kind of journeyalong.
And then I think they obviouslysaw and they have seen through
the pitch, competition andobviously a lot of traction that
I'm getting in the community.
They've now wanted topotentially come on as CTO and

(27:16):
CPO and that's that next, nextstage of the journey.
They're helping run the pilot,doing all the data, user
analysis, have helped with youdesign marketing side of things.
As you know, the companiesevolve as new features have
evolved, and I guess the greatpart about it is, as we've
needed iterations, as I've had,you know, we've worked together.
We have meetings every singleweek in person, online.

(27:39):
It's consistent.
It's because I think you knowwhen we investors say well, if
you don't have a co-founder,like you can't do this.
You know you need a co-founder.
You need a tech co-founder.
I said I don't want aco-founder.
That's not how I see my journeygoing.
I don't.
I need someone, especially ifI'm dealing with health
information really sensitive Ineed someone who's I'm not

(28:00):
saying that co-founders can't behighly skilled, but I want
someone with a lot of experienceand we're working with big
companies with really highly,highly sensitive data and
Nakatomi had that experience andthat's how I wanted Ovum to be
from the get-go and I wouldn'tchange it for the world because
every deliverable for Ovum hasbeen the highest quality.
I know they're personallyinvested as well.

(28:20):
They're financially invested.
So I've had this incrediblerelationship as I've developed
and you know, I guess theproblem for investors is well,
every time you need to make achange, you have to pay more
money.
That's not how it works.
I guess in a venturerelationship, if they're
co-invested in you, you knowthey want it to work as well
right, yeah, no, no, it's.

It's just it's great to hear that, because I do
feel like that is a directionthat we need to be moving
towards is it's like at leastthe way that we operate is?
We operate like a venturestudio but we don't even make
investments in companies, so weprovide a lot of hands-on
support.
We have a whole bunch of likemarketing and content and can
help with branding and narrativeand storytelling.

(29:01):
We can also get on the benchand help people with lab-based
research.
We can build a space to supportlike.
I'm hearing what you're sayingand I'm just like, yes, that
that seems like it's somethingthat is deeply needed in this
space, but there's not that manypeople moving, moving into it
as quick as what might be neededyeah, so it's great, I'm gonna
look, I'm definitely gonnafollow you up to look these

(29:21):
people up because that soundssuper exciting.

They're Australian based and they're in
Sydney.
Yeah, great.
Yeah, you should definitelylook them up.

I feel like it's always Sydney.

Yeah, it's always Sydney, sydney.
Yeah, we're not there yet, butit'll happen eventually.

We were talking about this before we were
jumping into the podcast andkind of touched on it a little
bit, I guess, with thebiopsychosocial model.
But I'm curious to see how yousee AI kind of playing a role in
supporting like ecological andsocial health and wellbeing.
So you know, obviouslybenefiting the individual, but
how do you reckon there could besort of those flow-on effects

(29:59):
into the broader systems?

Yeah, of course.
I think when we think of ai,fundamentally it's, you know,
productivity, efficiency, dataanalysis, pattern recognition
and supporting humans in beingable to use their emotional
complexity and their cognitivecomplexity and their empathetic
complexity to the best of theirabilities.
And, have you know, ai helpwith all the administrative, I

(30:23):
guess tiring, exhausting stuffthat we.
that actually, I think, sucks alot of emotional energy from our
human capacity.
So I guess if I say AI inhealthcare, it's interesting.
I definitely don't see AI asreplacing the doctor, and I just
want to make that clear becausethat's how I've really
structured over.
I see it exactly how I justsaid.

(30:45):
I see it supporting the doctoror the allied health and the
patient right in being to engagein their highest level of
cognitive, emotional capacitythat they can and doing all the
data analysis, administrative,honestly, sometimes crap that
ends up taking up probably 80 to90 percent of our time, and I

(31:06):
just left internship and I'mliterally just typing on a
computer most of the time rightafter doing four years of
medical training.
I mean there is some greatmoments but, um, you know, you
spend all day in a computertyping notes and it just sucks
you dry, right.
So I see ai coming on in thatcapacity and then, beyond that,
what I see it doing is, you know, pattern recognition, data

(31:27):
analysis to such a high, I guess, volume that we just can't do
to be able to improvediagnostics.
So not coming in and saying Imean we have, we do have AI
doing this, which is you havethis condition right.
I see it saying here is the,the data, here are the trends,
here are some things I've puttogether so this can be on the
individual level or it can be onthe I guess population level.

(31:51):
So if you're looking at it froman individual point of view, it
can be.
For example, we've already beenplaying around with the pilot.
If you're someone going throughstomach issues and you're
trying to track diet right,you're putting in different food
groups, like I've been tryinglow FODMAP, I've been trying low
histamine, I've been tryingketo and nothing is working.
I can't figure out what isgoing on.

(32:11):
You can put that all in OVEN,for example, and it says, well,
have you thought about this,this and this food which
actually is all linked to this?
Like, oh, okay, and then if youput certain blood, blood
results in, it'll be able toremember all of that and all
your past medical history andallow you to say, oh, wait, that
is something that is going onwith me, and highlight that, but
not diagnose you, ratherencourage you.
Okay, well, I can now go to thedoctor and I should go to the

(32:33):
doctor and ai can say well, hereare some questions you should
ask and this is how you canprepare right so it's that
individual, I guess.

Sorry, I'll let you go no, no, no, no, that's.
I was just that's justfascinating hearing you say that
.
So a I can see how this canintegrate with, like my fitness
pal, any sort of fitness appthat you would be able to then,
kind of like api, plug in, sharedata between these things and
then being able to observe thepatterns and processes and and
go okay, because again, so manyissues like ibs and that sort of

(33:03):
stuff.
So you're saying that you couldpotentially track these sort of
patterns with food and allthese other things Are you
inputting like?
I'm just trying, I'm trying toassume.
Like, are we inputting datalike I ate apples?
Are you taking a photo of yourdinner and then the AI reads
that and goes okay, cool, is itlike?
What are your like?
How are you thinking ofintegrating these things?

(33:23):
Like, how?

are you ?
So at the moment we areintegrated with Apple Watch data
.
Yeah, just Apple at the moment.
So smart watch data andmenstrual tracking.
So if you're using other appssuch as clue or flow or whatever
you have, if you sync to yourapple health you're able to just
sync that into ovum, so we'llhave that at the moment for our

(33:44):
pilot yeah and then medicalrecords obviously only the
results, so de-identified, andthen any symptoms you're
reporting so you can use voicerecognition at the moment.
So, hey, this, this, this, and Ifelt, this, this, this.
You can do that as many times aday as you want.

That's great.

And it will remember and integrate all
of that and it's gotlongitudinal memory, so
everything you put in it willintegrate and remember.
It's not one-off conversations.

Great.
So it's not like the GPT, whereyou've got a context window of,
say, 5 000 characters it's likeit's.
It's going to have a memorybased on, so if correct me if
I'm wrong.
So you're sort of saying thatit's going to build you up an
individual data set with themore information you give it,
the better.
It's going to be able topredict or analyze the patterns
and processes in your own life.
But it will also then compareand contrast that to the broader

(34:29):
population of data that you'regathering through the app as
well.

Yeah, so we have your individual data
is yours right?
And then on the back end we'vegot our ML and our large
language model, so that will bebased off all the women who are
using it.
So we're getting real women'shealth data to train AI, because
at the moment we know AI isquite gendered, because our
global data sets are gendered.
So we're trying to actuallycreate the first women-specific

(34:55):
AI and it's not at the end ofthe day, the data, the
aggregated anonymous data, couldbe useful not only for
healthcare but for numerousindustries using AI for women,
because right now it's notnecessarily representative and I
guess the way we're gettingaround that because obviously
that's a bit of a chicken or theegg problem is only allowing
them to access very specificresources at the beginning.

(35:17):
Obviously, the pilot is areally big part of that, because
we're really watching you know,how Ovum's talking.
We've already been doing a monthof that and making sure that
it's, you know, accessing theright things.
You know, hallucination'salways a big issue with AI.
I found Ovum's been really goodbut at the end of the day, we
need more users and more peopleto use it and say it said this
or it said that and reallyunderstand if you know it's

(35:41):
working the way that we expectit to.
I mean, that's part of a pilot,that's part of a beta testing
phase, and we've already gotover 130 women signed up, so
you've mentioned this thepilot's going live next week no,
yep, yep, cool yep, so veryexciting.

We'll have to get the details to let people know
we'll put it on there.
That would be.

Yeah, that would be great, um, okay
yes, so I guess the way I liketo think of it is your personal
health assistant.
So the doctor has theirreceptionist who keeps all their
files in order, knows theirappointment times.
That's over.
For women, it's theirreceptionist.
Hey, can I?
Where's that blood test?
When was my last cervicalscreening?

(36:23):
Um, what does that mean?
Like what does that randomblood test they ordered mean?
Like I know it's normal, but Idon't know what you know,
transferrin is as part of myiron test, or my anemia screen,
like what does that mean?
Um, and I think that's part ofthe education piece.
And then putting that alltogether to understand.
You know, when you're goingthrough pcos, like there's so

(36:43):
many hormones that are testedand there's so many you know
complexities in that conditionum, that is, you know, 10 minute
appointment with the doctor,even if you have numerous
specialist appointments it canstill be disjointed, because
it's usually months at a timeand you want to be understanding
yourself day to day right, Iagree, it just makes so much
sense.

It just helps you.

You know, especially with cost of
living crisis, being able toafford to go to the doctor that
regularly is difficult, right?
There's less bulk billing,that's kind of moving out
Specialist appointments at right.
And there's less bulk billing,that's kind of moving out
specialist appointments.
At least we've seen withmedicare.
Recently there was um, an itemnumber change to cover for
longer kind of guidingappointments because that
previously wasn't covered forwomen with endo who are dealing
with complex conditions.

(37:25):
That's great um, but at the endof the day guiding lists of
waiting times of two and a halfyears.
So you know that's why, you needsomething in between, as and
this is where I guess circlingback to your question about AI
and like ecological socialimpact is.
So, yes, it's helping theindividual, you know, understand
themselves, you know, duringthis time.

(37:45):
And with that comes betterhealth literacy.
And we know, with better healthliteracy comes less medication
errors, less hospitalisations,less chronic disease, more
confidence in the populationwith themselves and with the
healthcare system.
And then, on the other end,we're looking at, okay, burnt
out doctors, doctors who don'tfeel like they're paid enough

(38:05):
for what they do, doctors whohave been sucked emotionally
from administrative burden.
And that's where AI comes in,not just from OVIM.
There's plenty of AI, justdigital from over.
There's plenty of a digitalhealth.
So many amazing ai tools comingout to you know, help doctors
with writing notes and recording, you know meetings and you know
things like that.
But I think what over will comein for women and their health

(38:27):
care provider, whoever that maybe, is that it will help the
doctor kind of go.
Okay, I don't need to start,you know, know out here with
this appointment.
I know exactly where this womanneeds to get help.
It's exactly what she's been,just, you know, reporting over
these last few weeks beforeshe's come here, she's got all
of her blood tests here in onespace.
I'm not asking the receptionistto chase this through fax to

(38:49):
come over here and then I don'thave it.
It's, you know, helping thedoctor pick up on diagnostic
patterns too.
And we have that UX in there, soit's easy for them to
understand.

Yeah, it just makes so much sense to me.
I love this concept of like alot of companies that we see now
that are coming through theranks.
It's power through empowermentand trying to squarely, I guess,
shift that balance.
And it's not that there'sobviously there's going to be a
balance of power between, like,a medical professional and an
individual, yeah, but it kind ofshifts it into more of a like a

(39:18):
collaborative, dynamicrelationship rather than a power
over or even a transactional,like, as you're saying, like
I've got 10 or 15 minutes, likeall right, let's go, go, go, go
go, whereas if you can berelating to this, this interface
, and providing it withinformation and data, that can
then create a summary for adoctor, and then you know they
can pull that up and thensuddenly you're getting straight

(39:39):
to the informed insights andhaving that conversation, so
that every word counts.
You know, rather, than it justbeing coming in and going.
This feels like it was totallypointless.
Now I have to wait until likeanother couple of weeks or a
couple of months, so I just Ican.
I really appreciate the levelof thinking you've put into this
, because it really is asystemic solution.

(40:01):
Thank you.
And yeah, I just want to honourthat because, like, a lot of
people might not necessarilyhave that wide boundary thinking
perspective and you're reallytrying to go how is this a win
for everyone?
I love seeing people coming upwith clever ideas like that.
So, thank you, kudos to you forthat.

Thank you, um it's been a big yeah, it
was a big problem and it wasyeah honestly.
So many people said this is areally big problem I don't know
how you're going to solve this.
And even like when I at Cicada,it was like this is a problem
and it does need solving, but Ithink it hasn't been done
because it's too big.
Like that was some of thefeedback I got.

(40:41):
Like what technology, like howare you going to do this?
I mean AI wasn't a.
When I did this course, ai wasnot at the forefront and
obviously has been a big solve,but at the same time, it comes
with its own you know issueswhich I've addressed.
But yeah, no, that was what Iwas faced with and I, honestly,

(41:01):
while I was doing med school andall these things, I don't know,
I just kept going, I just keptgoing.
I don't know one foot in frontof the other, you just do it.

Yeah, we can relate to that as well and it's
only impossible until it's done.
It's like a four-minute milewith all this sort of stuff and,
realistically, like, none ofthe current world problems that
we face have been solved.
They are interconnected,interdependent, wicked, crazy,
complex problems that we allface, but it's up to the next
generation to come through andgo.
I think I can find a solutionthat will be able to support and

(41:34):
address this and provide notjust financial return but also
social or ecological returnbecause, like, ultimately we've
gone so far past sustainingthings.
We need to be activelysupporting regenerating.
You know, people's life energyand also the planet's like life
energy.
So it's just so exciting when Icome across companies like this
.
That's why I was like we needto sit down for a chat, because

(41:56):
this is awesome.

More people need to know about this
and thank you.
I think it was great to,honestly, after the pitch, to
have a group of you guys come upand be like this is amazing,
like this needs to happen forwomen and women's health.
I was like, yes, that's what Iwant to see, like I want to see
it comes back to this educationpiece and I think it's you know,

(42:17):
it was great to have that Likeyou guys come up to me at the
pitch event, really.
So I just need some water.

Yeah, go for it please.
We've been going on for a while, so that's all good.
I was choking at the very start.
I was getting way too excitedfor the conversation and then
the coffee went down the wrongway.
So I totally get you there, um,whilst you're grabbing a drink,

(42:45):
I I was thinking we, we touchedon it a little bit there.
Right, we were talking abouthow, like you think there could
be a lot of social andecological benefit.
But what I think would be reallyinteresting we know we've had
this conversation, I know thatyou've mentioned it in a pitch
before, but you are kind oflooking at exploring ways in
which you can make ovum free, sothat it could potentially
because this is this is alwaysgoing to be an issue is that, um
, you know this tech and allthese concepts.

(43:06):
They're great.
They cost a lot of money tomake happen.
Who's going to pay for it?
How do we ensure that it'sequitable and fair access?
And you know whether that's amodel where some people might
pay, or you could do a light orfree for those who can't afford
it, similar to, you know, samharris's waking up app, right?
yeah if you email them and askyou can get it for free, yeah,
if you can pay, you pay, like,have you like?

(43:28):
Where are you at with exploringthis, because I know that
that's something at theforefront of your mind.
I'd love to see where yourthinking's gone or where you've
developed your thinking in thissort of accessibility space.

Yeah, no definitely, I think, for me,
I mean to make the biggestimpact, access the most women,
and I want this to be a globalapp, not just national, and I
want it to be available to womenat all stages of their lifespan
, regardless of theirsocioeconomic status, of their
cultural status, of whatlanguage they speak.
It needs to be accessible toevery woman.
That is my goal.
Of course, you have investorsand you've got to have a

(44:02):
commercial model.
So the way in which I'vestructured it is at the moment
it would be a subscription base,so $10 a month for one woman or
$17 to pay it forward foranother woman who can't afford
it.
Lovely and that's tapping intothat kind of equitable,
altruistic model and a lot ofwomen have been like, honestly,
I want to use it more nowbecause you have that option,

(44:22):
honestly, and that just showshow amazing women are and how
much they want to support eachother.
It's incredible.
But if I can secure industryfunding first before I go live
into a commercial market, thatwould be preferable.
So, whether that's insurancecovering it for international as
well as not just permanentresidents in Australia, because

(44:44):
I think that's a really bigpopulation initially, and then
obviously seeing how we couldscale that globally, or if it's
certain pharma that areinterested in the research, how
can we actually createtreatments and diagnostics that
are better for women?
So not from a marketingadvertisement capacity.

I was going to say , like if I was putting my hat
on and trying to think outsidethe box would be like you could
set up a research institutearound this.
So, you're doing your PhD.
I can see how this could becomelike a female health and
wellbeing research like labwhere you're going to be looking
at all of this data and tryingto make sense of it all and

(45:23):
think how can we try andoptimise this LLM?
And I could see that therecould be funding coming from the
research and development sideof things to be able to cover
some funding.
But then there could also be be,you know, as you sort of
suggested like and rightly so isthat this could also be an
industry-led thing.
Someone like a like a medibankor a bupa could come to the
table and go.
You know what great idea.

(45:45):
We're happy to cover all of ourmembers yeah, exactly, you know
so and because it makes sense,it's a vested self-interest,
like i'm'm sure there's a lot ofpeople.

There's reimbursement costs right Less
hospitalisation, less medicationerrors.

Exactly.

Ariella Heffernan-Ma (45:58):
Preventing your health right.
Stop people having chronicdisease, and then you won't have
to pay so much for theirhealthcare.

Yeah, to me it just feels like they will be
your biggest advocates to beginwith, because they know.
I mean, they have all the dataand they're looking at things
and they are.
You're not in the insurancebusiness.
Okay, we're going to get what Isay there, but you're making
money out of that, right.
So you're not going to be in asituation where you're not
making money, which is whyhealthcare is going up a lot

(46:26):
because everyone is gettingsicker and sicker.
So if we can move away, asyou're sort of saying, like a
lot of our healthcare is gearedaround getting you from um, like
like chronic to okay or likeacute, acute to good, but
there's nothing that's reallylooking at trying to get you
from good to great and it reallyfeels like this app is exactly
aimed towards that.
It's like we don't just want tobe surviving.

We want to be thriving.
Yes, that's a big one anyways,you know, longevity is obviously
a big topic at the moment sohot right now so hot right now.
Longevity um.
I'm reading outlive.
Have you read it really good?

I I'm like an active avoider of the longevity
space, just from a purelybiological perspective of like
everything has to meet its end.

It's so true um, even organizations.

Like you know, if someone comes along and does
exactly what we're doing, waybetter than us.
Great, you know, we'll compostthis and we'll allow the
nutrients to disperse, and thenwe'll go and work on something
else, that's how all of life hasalways worked, and that's how
evolution constantly works.
It's like it's evolution in thecontext of a species, not an
individual like but anyway, so Iguess.

I think it's it interesting.
I mean, the way I've perceivedlongevity is more of a link with
like preventative health.
So it's about.

Lifespan rather than healthspan.
Other way yeah.

Ariella Heffernan-Ma (47:41):
Healthspan rather than lifespan.
So how many years and this iswhat we, when we are looking at
introducing things into thehealthcare system and like
health economics is you know,how many years of disability
does this person have?
And, using this intervention,how many years less of
disability do they have?
So it's like looking at theirhealth span.

(48:01):
How many years are they livingin good health without
disability, whatever thatdisability may look like,
whether that's mental healthconditions, whether that's pain,
whatever that is.
And actually, interestingly, inthe Gender Health Gap Report,
it showed that women are havingmany more years lived in in poor
health than men.
Um, like significantly a longeramount, and I think it's 25

(48:24):
times more.
Um, when I looked at theresearch, you should definitely
have a look at it's like prettyshocking.
Um, so I guess for me it's.
My interest is well, if women'shealth span is so much worse
than men's, then we really needto be focusing on preventative
health for women.
And the stats I talked aboutwith chronic health conditions,
you know that kind of drasticincrease in chronic health

(48:46):
conditions amongst women.
Women do suffer more than menfrom chronic health conditions.
But that's also because I thinkthere's not much addressing
women's physiology different andhow it's different to men's
physiology.
Like we do have more complexhormones going on and they don't
just affect our reproductivesystem.
They, they sorry, they affectour cardiovascular system, our

(49:09):
neurological system.
Like women are a greater risk of, um, you know the biggest
killer of women iscardiovascular disease more risk
of dementia, um, it's alllinked to our hormones over our
lifespan and that's why it'sreally important to be, I guess,
collecting this longitudinaldata, but also introducing
preventative health measures forwomen when it comes to things

(49:30):
like cardiovascular disease andcognition and all these things
that are not just reproductive,which is where I'm trying to
step in as well I was going tosay that sounds like this is my
logical.

I was going to ask you about this because it makes
total sense to me.
Is that, as you're sort ofsaying, it's yes, it's
reproductive health?
to begin with.
But realistically you are awhole system, you're a whole
being and there is so much moregoing on and, and to your point
right, the the nuances andcomplexities that go with the
female cycles of life, like youare just like 100% more

(50:01):
complicated than men in terms oflike how.
But it's true, right, like menit's like a 24-hour phase of
like you're on.
You wake up like thetestosterone goes like this, and
then it'd be that's pretty muchit every day.
That's like.
That's why the work week istotally geared towards men and
everything, like everything todo with work is like go, go, go,
go go constantly, whereasfemales, it's like,

(50:22):
realistically, you have like aweek, maybe a week and a half,
of like power where you get likethe amount of work a guy would
get done in a month, done in ina week and a half, and then
either side of that you're kindof like, oh god, I don't feel
great and and it's like we don'tacknowledge that and and these
are things that being able to.
I mean it's, it's getting moretrendy now I'm sure you'd see

(50:43):
this everywhere.
It's like you know, matchingyour workouts with your cycles
and um, even with work as well.
It's.
It's nice to see that peopleare trying to go okay, cool.
Well, I should actually payattention to this and how to
weave that in um and I canimagine that over my eye.
Like this could also be woveninto a like, let's say, health
and well-being, so like a, likea not necessarily personal

(51:04):
trainer, but like fitnessnutrition, like yeah 100, just
the whole, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, no, over me is very.
I guess it is wellness but it'snot diagnostic.
It's advisory.
It's here let me help youunderstand yourself better.
So even a conversation I hadwith Ovum recently, I just did
my whole onboarding which goesthrough all of your past medical
history, your screening, andwe'll advise you.
Well, if you haven't had thatcheck, then you should.
And I said I just don't have asymptom, I just want to

(51:31):
understand my body better.
And he just started talking tome and asking me questions about
my diet.
My exercise obviously couldlink with my Apple health, so I
saw how many steps I was doingand this and that and it was
great.
It just, you know, it ended upthrough our conversation,
planning me a whole week of whatI needed to do to fit in my

(51:53):
relaxation, my mindfulness,water intake, you know, diet
based on what I was reportingand my past medical history.
So I have migraines, I put thatin there.
So it really tailored a wholeschedule for me.
I was like that's what I need.
I needed someone to say nothere's what you have to do, this
is how you do it.
And that's you know where.
I guess again, when you comeback to this change and you're

(52:14):
kind of, you're not in thatcontemplation, so you've got
like absolutely no contemplation, you've got pre-contemplation,
half of that in that spacemoving from pre-contemplation to
actually action, orcontemplation.
And action is really not justeducation but support on how do
I actually do this, how do Ibring this into my life.

(52:34):
I think that's the hardest partRemoving those barriers to
change.

How do we create healthy habits around this?

Yeah, exactly.

I can imagine like baking that, like that was
another thing I was going to ask, because I can really see there
being like a really strong likepsychological play here as well
not from like a let'smanipulate people, but you get
what I mean, like we can okaycool.
We know how people think.
We know that you know peopletake the path of least
resistance and you need to beremoving all the barriers to

(53:00):
change, and we need to bestarting with implementation
intentions and stuff like thisto be able to then get people to
go.
You know, I will, just, youknow, get up and start doing
this routine, rather thanexpecting them to get up and,
you know, expecting them to getup and you know, do three
workouts in the first week, plustwo runs and a minute.
Like you know, you're nevergoing to get going to hit 100
like.
So also baking all of theseways of encouraging and relating

(53:21):
to people exactly, um andunderstanding because, like you
could kind of program it thatlooks like you can ask people
how do you respond best to likeum feedback?
Do you want to be givenpositive encouragement, are you?
Someone that actually likes tobe like, not just like.
Oh, I think you could actuallyprobably push 20% harder in this
.
Are you someone who relateswell to the negative?
Positive?
It's so true, everyone's sodifferent, yeah, and rather than

(53:44):
it just being like a PT orsomeone coming to you and being
like this is the thing, it'slike you could do this and you
could be like, oh, actually I'mnot really feeling that, and
then come back and be like, yeah, but you should probably still
do it, or okay, cool, that'sfine.
Maybe we try this.

Yeah, and you can say that to them.
You can say you know, I wantyou to, you know, be much more
strict with, like you know,setting a schedule for me.
You can say I want somethingreally more relaxed and the
pilot will only have a few pushnotifications because they're
trying to balance that at themoment.
It will just kind of remind you, you know, to kind of log how
you're feeling and kind ofengage in that reflective, that

(54:22):
self-reflective behavior when itcomes to your body.
But you know it will, you know,remind you about medications or
, if you want it to remind youabout appointments or remind you
to do certain things that willhopefully be in our commercial
version.
Crazy, I can, yeah, I can.

I can imagine like this brings me into the next
thing.
I wanted to appointments orremind you to do certain things
that will hopefully be in ourcommercial version.
Crazy, I can yeah, I can.
I can imagine, like this bringsme into the next thing I wanted
to ask you about would becollaborations.
Have you thought, like I canimagine, that Apple Fitness
would eat something like this up?
Have you thought about havingchats with, you know, with Apple
or with Garmin or with any ofthese other Fitbit leading
providers who might go?
You know what?

(54:54):
We've got this side of itcovered, like, really well, this
is going to be so complementary, like are you trying to come in
as a hey, like I'm here as acollaborator, and complementary,
like let's look for win-wins.
Like what's your approach whentrying to find partnerships and
collaborations?

Yeah, no, definitely.
I believe that you know there'sa lot of really successful
companies doing amazing thingswith health data.
I guess the best example forhow we're trying to integrate
the moment is through AppleHealth, but we haven't had
official partnerships with anyof these companies yet.
But I think the aim would be topilot, show how women are using
it, show what data we'recollecting, seeing how it's

(55:32):
being used and then going tothese companies whatever we
think is most aligned in termsof our mission and values of
women's health and see how wecould collaborate.
It would also be interesting tospeak to users and see what
they would want as acollaboration, because I feel
like there'd probably be somecompanies they'd want and some
they wouldn't.
I think you know also trying tocollaborate with really early

(55:56):
stage tech companies as wellthat are doing awesome things,
which I think you introduced meto as well.

So I don't know if I can go into names.
No, no, of course, of course.
So Cimex, yes, Cimex.

We are, you know, just talking about
how we could integrate as apackage for women, which would
be really, really interesting.
So they are a patch thatmeasures hormones.
Uh, at the moment it's just,you could, just a singular use,
but we're looking at what wecould do with that, which would
be super interesting, because Ithink a lot of women that were
coming to me at the digitalhealth festival were in

(56:27):
perimenopause and they're, youknow, feeling that they can get
their hormones checked with thedoctor.
A lot of women have actuallycome to me saying doctors aren't
allowing me to get my bloodtest done and check my hormones
which I've been shocked by.

I've had the exact same thing as a dude.
Yeah, I was told like get outof here.
You're healthy and fine andyou're within the limits with
this.
And I was like I just know thatI wasn't 100% like with the
limits.
It's like if you're here in abandwidth where it's like
between 2 to 15,.
I don't have anything to giveyou the exact thing right?

Yeah, no, that's fine.
I don't even remember all thereference.

If you're 2.1, that's yeah sure that's within
range but, like that's probablynot great, you know what I mean.
Yeah, and then I found that inthe current system like I would
never be allowed to go like okay, this is great.
Can I just keep testing thesebecause I want to know where I'm
at.
I'm trying to improve it'spattern recognition.

How is this changing over time?
How is this changing with mydiet, with my exercise, with my
symptoms?
Like am I feeling things incertain parts of the year that I
really want to?
Understand why I'm feeling them.
You know, I myself, as I said,like I've had migraines and
stuff and trying to understandand any migraine stuff I try to
understand.

My partner's the exact same.
Yes, just constantly.
What triggers it?

Yeah, what foods.
And it's so hard to rememberbecause when you're in that much
pain that's like your worldright, and then you have to try
and reflect when you're out ofthat like what you ate and what
stresses you had and at whatpoint in the day you get a
migraine.
just thinking about the migraine, literally, what were your
hormones doing?
I don't know.
I didn't go to get a blood test, I was trying to cope, so I

(58:06):
think that there's.
You know, I'm not saying getblood tests all the time,
because obviously it costs andthe government pays for it, but
I think there is something to besaid.
I think that was his main issue.
He was like you're fine, yes,yes.
So that is big.
And I think you know there is athing about doctors
overordering blood tests and Ido want to acknowledge that from
, obviously, a doctor's point ofview, I do think there is a
space for biomarkers beingtracked.

(58:31):
I agree Maybe it's not just likethrough a blood test, like this
patch, um, where we can trackthings more regularly.
I think we're making a greatway in terms of having like the
aura ring and I mean femtechkind of reference to which is
looking at basal bodytemperature and and sleep and
things like that consistently.
But we I think there issomething to be said, especially
for hormones like what arehormones doing, you know, week

(58:53):
by week, and how is thatcorrelating with someone's
symptoms, how they're feeling?
It's so different for everyone.
How can you say one referencerange is okay for every single
person?
because it's not how the worldworks yeah, we're so different
um and I think, yes, not justfor women, it's really important
.
So we recognize men too.
Obviously it's a bit more, it'sit's more simple, but stuff

(59:14):
changes, especially as you getolder.
Right, men do go throughhormone changes.

Especially with testosterone.
That's like a major thing and,like with so many people at the
moment suffering from lowtestosterone or being super
stressed or not being able toconceive, like all of these
things are interrelated, right,it still takes two people to
tango when it comes to.
I guess why I'm bringing this upis that I can see how this
continuous hormone monitoringpatch that simex are working on,

(59:41):
like yeah sure, they're doingit for ivf, right now but like
you call that, it could be forpeople perimenopausal or
postmenopausal or even anyone atany stage just trying to
understand themselves better inthe biomarkers, like I can see
how there could even besomething for for males to be
able to track this.
So you don't have to go in andget a blood test, you could just

(01:00:01):
run these lab on a chip sort ofthings similar.
I don't know if you knowneutromics as well they're
another group doing similarsorts of things.
So, again, happy to make thatintro, um, but yeah, there's a
lot of people working on thissort of stuff that I can see
could be a great way toalleviate a lot of the burden
and pressure and stress on thesystem, which can help people
get from good to great.

Ariella Heffernan-Marks (01:00:22):
So, yeah, it's exciting to see that
you're looking to integrate withthem as well, definitely
looking at how they can be likea wellness focused as well, and
how we can make this accessibleto more women, because I think
you know ivf is a big problem,but only so many people can
afford to do that.
So how can?
And that, like the right tounderstand your body and your

(01:00:44):
hormones over time, should beright for every, every woman.
So how do we do that?
And we're in discussion, we'recollaborating, we're talking um
trying to figure out how we cando that, but you know they're
obviously still in pilot stagesand trials, similar sort of.

Samuel Wines (01:00:58):
You know similar location, maybe arguably a
little bit you know further overthe clinical trials but yeah,
yeah, it'll be interesting.
I look forward to seeing howthat will kind of yes, me too.

Ariella Heffernan-Mar (01:01:07):
Hopefully , fingers crossed.
If not, I think ovum definitelywants to move into a device
space at some point.
So, um, whether we move into,I've always really dreamed of
having a really nice.
Like you know, there isobviously Fitbit and there is is
it Woosh?
It's like a.

I'll believe whatever you say.
If you say it with confidence,it's another smart watch.

Very popular amongst athletes and
it's all great, but everything'svery masculine looking.
So can we create somethingreally aesthetic and beautiful
for women to wear that they feelthey can wear all the time
without kind of beingmasculinised?
Yeah so that would be a goal.
Obviously not right now.
It's like get the app on theapp store and get women using it
and then see from there.
Yeah, but it's always fun tolike, yeah, to dream, to

(01:01:50):
innovate.

Let's imagine, and then, yeah, okay, vision had to
drain to innovate.
Let's imagine, and then, yeah,okay, vision board.
Yeah, it's like I love thedivergent thinking, but it's
always having to come back andconverge on like, okay, cool
that one foot in front of theother, like you were saying
before, like what's that nextstep?
what's that next step?
And keeping the horizon ofpossibility as wide and open as
possible so that you can kind ofrelate to what has to emerge to

(01:02:12):
get to that next place.
So, no, it's good to hear youkind of operate on a similar
sort of way of thinking.
We spoke about this before westarted the recording.
Yeah, so, like a lot of youryou were saying, like a lot of
your business decisions, it'sactually you kind of intuitively
make these decisions.
So, whether that's someone totalk to or a meeting to take, or

(01:02:34):
a podcast to sit down and havea conversation about, um, what
role do you think intuitionplays for you as a, as a founder
, and and and what made youdecide to call that out rather
than, you know, maybe just notacknowledge it, because yeah, no
, um, interesting.

Uh, I think that I was always.
I think, even if you go back tothat story of me in the car
having an idea and just beinglike, okay, this is going to be
what I do now Like where wheredid that come from?
I never had dreamed of beinglike a CEO of a tech company,
like I'd always.
I'd always been interested inthe future of technology and how

(01:03:15):
it could impact the humanspecies.
Like I think that's what drewme to law of science.

We are the technology, like humans and
technology.
Yeah, it's just so Part of us.

Yeah, and I think that like this is me
using like tuning intointuition, actually seeing how
it was actually affecting me,like years before, was this is
going way back?
So tell me if this is likegoing away off beaten path or
whatever that saying is.
But I was.
I remember you know you chooseyour subjects when you're
applying for the monash book andI'd actually before that.

(01:03:46):
No, I had to drop methods.
I was doing methods one, two.
I had to drop methods three tofour because I was like I don't
need this.
I covered all my bases for law.
I was like I guess biology isreally interesting.
I really like how genetics likeworks, like how humans work and
I love biology, so I did lawscience because I was looking at
this brochure and it had thiskind of stem cell type tech you

(01:04:07):
know what those booklets looklike and I was like science,
like law science, I want to getinto stem cells, I want to get
into tech and how we createhumans and ethics.
And then I was like hey,medical malpractice litigation.
That's what I wanted to do soironic, and it was like that's
why I did reproductive biologyand embryology and I was like I
just love this, it's a passion,and it was me just acting on

(01:04:27):
intuition, I'm just going to dothis because I just want to, and
then I just followed that.
Then I just followed that andthrough that, I then fell into
medicine and then, throughmedicine, I had these
experiences that allowed me toactually then sit in the car
that day and go, yes, this is it, this is like what I'm gonna do
.
This is this is it and itwasn't.
Oh, don't be stupid, this islike you know.
I just ignore that feeling,ignore that thought.

(01:04:49):
I followed it and every timesomeone said this problem's too
big or you can't do this, it waslike almost like I intuitively
knew so well that I had to dothis and it was somehow going to
work, that it didn't affect meLike.
This is me really reflecting.
I don't think I consciouslyknew.

No, I love this.
I can Totally relate.

Yeah.

Have you seen Dune 2?

Yes.

So you know the scene where he says I can see
all potential possibilities.
Many of them are horrible, butthere is a thin line where we
succeed and I feel like that'slike every founder with these
sorts of ideas is.
You're like no, it's tangible,it's tactile.
It's like you can feel thatthere is something here and you
know that it's it's.
It's tangible, it's tactile.

(01:05:33):
It's like you can feel thatthere is something here and you
know that it's possible.
You also know that there'sgoing to probably be a shit ton
of luck involved with getting tothat point, and it's not
necessarily going to be allskill-based, but you're kind of
like I know I can see it.
If only everything can coalescearound that.
Um, I just thought that wasfunny hearing you say that it's
great.
It's great, it's the same as us.
We were the same.
We're like this is going tosuck, but there is a thin line

(01:05:56):
of possibility of being able tobring something like this
together.

Yeah, and I think it was.
Yeah, I don't know because Ithink you have to have.
You have to tune into thatbecause you get so many no's and
you get so many pushbacks withany founder any idea, and I just
didn't.
It was just so in my gut that Ithis was what I had to do, that
.
I just didn't let it affect me,like, of course you have those
days you're like, oh, thatreally sucked, that was a crap

(01:06:20):
meeting.
But then you have these peoplecome.
She says it's amazing, this hashelped me so much.
This is you know you, youshould be doing this.
This is the most incredibleidea.
I think you have to follow that.
Um, I think an interesting oneyou touched on is like
commercial decision making andlike who to take meetings with
and things like that.
I think most of the time I'mpretty.

(01:06:41):
I'm pretty much a yes person.
You never know where a meetingis going to go initially, but I
will use my intuition to gaugeafter that meeting.
So how did I feel with thatperson?
Did I feel uncomfortable?
Did I feel not myself?
If I have that feeling, itdoesn't matter what they're
offering.
I'm just not going to engageanymore amicably, but I think

(01:07:04):
it's really important when youare a founder and you're trying
to make decisions and you needas much as you can get, I think
it's important to still beselective, sure.
And not just take everythingthat?

is thrown at you, but it sounds like what you're
sort of saying here.
There's actually something here.
I want to kind of unpack itsounds, if I'm going to
interpret what you're saying.
It's like it's also don't becompletely rational about it
Like just because someone's gotthe money doesn't mean you
should be paying attention tothat.
It's like lit, like what does,what does not just your head say
, but what does your heart sayand what does your gut say?
Like and and and that moreholistic, making sense, like I

(01:07:39):
don't know if you know the.
Have you heard of the concept ofjung's four ways of knowing?
No, so like.
There's intuitive, intuitiveknowing, um, then there's, I
guess uh, I know for vague hesays propositional, but like the
intellectual knowing.
So, like I know that you knowthe it's not actually a sunrise,
it's an earth rotate orwhatever.
Like you know, you can knowsomething in that way.

(01:08:01):
Then, yeah, there's intuition,there's emotional, so emotional
ways of knowing, so you can, youcan relate to it in that way.
And then also somatic, so likethe felt, experiential, um, like
, or movement based ways ofknowing so you know that could
be.
You know something like I knowhow to ride a bike, but it could
also be I know the pain thatI'm feeling is real.
Yeah, right, so it feels likewhat I'm hearing you say.

(01:08:25):
You're kind of trying tobalance those different ways of
knowing, whether you know, havethe framework to make sense of
it or not.
You're kind of, when you'releaning into these things it's
like okay cool, all right, howam I feeling?
Okay cool, yep, this makessense to progress with this
forwards rather than it justbeing like fully rational sort
of like yes, it's.

Yeah, it's definitely it's, it's true.
It's really interesting.
I'll read more about thatframework that sounds oh, I'll
send it across, please.
Please do.
I love that stuff.
Yeah, I think that with myintuition and the way in which I
make decisions, I don't thinkI've necessarily have I been
taught it.
I think, on one hand, yes,because I've done law, I've done

(01:09:03):
medicine.
It's all about rationalthinking and how to make
evidence-based decisions anddrawing from X amount of
propositions how, how do youreach, you know the best and
it's deep analytical thinking.
However, you don't get taughtintuition and you don't get
taught emotional intelligence.
Really Maybe in medicine like.

(01:09:25):
I think they're doing better attrying to teach emotional
intelligence.

I get what you mean I?

think that I think you can, can
definitely like I've got abusiness coach who is now really
delved into, like not only myintuition, but like my cognitive
biases and like what's mysaboteurs and how is that
affecting decisions I make orthings I feel, and I think that
has allowed me now to reflect oneverything I've just reflected
on with you and say this iswhat's going on and this is how

(01:09:51):
it's working.
But there was nothing duringthose times which was saying to
me you are using your intuitionright now exactly, it's not.

It's not mechanical it's not structured.
It's like you.
You're constantly.
It's an interplay between allof those ways of knowing at all
times and it's just whether ornot you acknowledge that one is
like we have kind of ahypertrophy in the intellectual
way of knowing in our world andespecially as like a male-bodied
person it's definitely thattends to be the case over in our
sphere.

(01:10:20):
But yeah, it's interesting tohear that you sort of like
whether you know it or not, youare kind of balancing that and I
guess the reason why I bringthis up is because you see this
with all the successful foundersis that your idea is only going
to go so far in the outsideworld, as you've done the inner
development yourself.
Right, because everything youdo as a founder is relational.

(01:10:42):
Everything you do is based onhow you as an individual being
relates to others and to theworld at large.
And if you have any blockagesor things where you're stuck in
your own personal development,any shadow side things you're
going to project out there orwhat have you, these things will
rear their head at some pointin time and they will stop like
you have no choice but to facethem eventually it's true and it

(01:11:05):
is kind of like uh, I don'tknow, I find it, I don't want to
, I don't want to.
I don't want to say that,because it sounds so kitsch to
say that.

Okay, I really want to hear it.

I know, but it just sounds like the worst words
to put together.
But, like starting animpact-oriented business almost
is can also sometimes be thespiritual work to allow you to
further develop your own beingin service of the whole.
Yeah, definitely.
It just sounds like a reallydirty way to put those two words
together, like business andspirituality, but like I really

(01:11:38):
do, feel there's so muchspirituality, I think in social
impact business I do.

Ariella Heffernan-Ma (01:11:43):
Personally I mean, yeah, go on.

Sorry, I interrupted you no, no, please
interrupt away, go for it.

Yeah, no, I just think that a lot of
things that have come out of mybusiness have allowed me to
connect to people in such adeeper way than just being a
doctor.
You really do have anopportunity to connect to people
in the most vulnerablesituations.
But you're the doctor, right,you're the doctor.
There's always, as we talkedabout, there's a power dynamic

(01:12:10):
which I always try to really nothave with my patients, unless
it was, you know, they were notlistening to really sane medical
advice.
Yeah, but I think you know,through these focus groups that
I've been running with women,we'll get together anonymously
so everyone has a differentemoji and everyone speaks to
each other.
Oh, eggplant, oh yeah, burger, Ihad the same thing.

(01:12:33):
Actually.
It's a really good icebreakerand it's been great like I've
done this with 50 women, so I'vedone like seven to ten at a
time and it's just theconversations that we're having
and the honesty aboutexperiences that they've had in
health care have allowed me tojust and and then I've been able
to like kind of bond in theseconversations as a doctor and as
a woman also going throughthese things and it's, you know,

(01:12:54):
I've been kind of coming inthis like leadership role but
also also being part of it andthen I'm linking all these
people together and I just thatthat's been amazing.
And then doing these well um,ovum wellness events.
So we've been trying to reallybuild community around ovum.
We're not just an app thatwants to just provide a service.
We really want to buildcommunity around Ovum.
We're not just an app thatwants to just provide a service.
We really want to buildcommunity about encouraging
women with health literacy.

(01:13:15):
So we're doing just at themoment body let's talk about
body love.
So it's all about body image and, I guess, understanding the
spectrum of disordered eating toeating disorder and doing
beautiful Pilates, nourishinglunch and having 30 women at a
time learn about how do we speakto our bodies better.
Because right now, especiallyafter COVID and the diet and

(01:13:35):
wellness culture has just gone,you know, through the roof with
social media, we don't speakwell to ourselves, and I don't
think it's just for women, Ithink men as well, everyone.
But the connection and like thefeeling in the room when we've
been running these sessions,these panels are usually at
Women's Health GP to to be thereas well.
It's just been phenomenal likewe're getting anonymous

(01:13:58):
questions from girls who haveexperienced eating disorders,
have someone who has, or theinner group of girls who they
feel is exacerbating dangerouskind of eating behaviors for
them.
And I just wouldn't have beenable to do that if I just again
would go back to staying in theconventional, if I hadn't
started my own business and,like, come into this leadership
role.
Like it's opened up this wholedeeper connection to women that

(01:14:20):
I just wasn't able to achievebefore.

No, I can resonate deeply with it.
I just always feel awkwardsometimes talking about these
things because I mean, ourentire business came from like a
, let's just say, a moment of asimilar sort of like, a insight
of like realizing theinterconnectedness of everything
and being like, oh shit, likeokay, we really need to be
trying to help humans connectwith themselves, with others and

(01:14:44):
the world around them, andbio-based, bio-led design and
innovation seems like a reallyeasy pathway to make that
connection, and you can talk tothese sort of metaphors.
But, yeah, I think it's reallyexciting hearing you say that,
because I do really think thatthe leaders of tomorrow are the
ones who it's not leading fromthe front, it's leading from

(01:15:05):
within the pack and it's tryingto, as we said before, the power
through empowerment.
But it's also like a very likeyou're a weaver, you're trying
to connect the dots, bringpeople together, allow them to
have the agency and,acknowledging that they are an
agent, to be able to then go onand do their own things, like
it's a very Taoist approach toleadership and it's exciting

(01:15:27):
hearing you say this becausewe've obviously been swimming in
similar tributaries, notnecessarily knowing we're in the
same river system, but it'sreally cool sort of hearing you
speak like this as well, becauseit just gives me so much hope
that there are other people outthere who similar sort of
wavelength and are just tryingto go out there every day and
try and make the world a littlebit better.
You know, whether that's forpeople or the planet.

So yeah , no, trying a little, a little
bit, and you guys are doingincredible job, you know, you've
you've absolutely arephenomenal, and your new
facility as well oh my gosh soexciting um you've, you know,
created this hub and space forpeople to create and innovate
and community and come togetherand feel, I guess, through that,

(01:16:08):
motivated, energized and, youknow, create a little like a
little ecosystem exactly to yourpoint, like before, about
bringing people together.

I think it's something so meaningful when you
can bring people together andthen you don't even have to be
the one facilitating you mightfacilitate bringing people in.
And then, eventually, whatemerges from this is something
you could never have expected,because that's just how complex
systems work yeah, bring a wholebunch of different agents
together.
You never know what's going tohappen, and it's been so
beautiful to just like witnesswhat happens.

Kind of like gardening.
It's kind of like oh, I had noidea that was going to happen,
but what do you?

know you guys are collaborating, it's amazing.

I can't even imagine how many.
I guess innovations orsuccessions Successions is not
the right word.

That's a TV show, but that's cool it is and it's a
really good TV show.

That's probably why it came out.
Yes, amazing things that you'veseen come out of this.
You know the labs here.
You know even what you wereshowing me, what people are
creating.
It's just so inspiring.

Thank you.
Yeah, we're very lucky to beable to.

I'm trying to get better at
accepting compliments.
Yes, I'm trying to get betterat accepting compliments.
Yes, I know.

That's why I just say thank you, I get really I'm
the same.
Yeah, yeah, but yeah, it's beenreally fun and, to your point,
a sufferfest making it happen.
But we're really grateful forwhat's sort of emerged and we
think that it's only like, withmore and more people coming on
board, it's only going to getbigger and better and more
exciting, and that's excitingfrom our perspective at least
anyway.

I'm wary of time Is there anything
else that you would like toshare with our listeners?
I don't think I think wecovered, just I guess, if
there's anyone listening whowants to join the pilot you can
go to our website and go to BeInvolved.
You can just sign up there.
You can go through ourInstagram page, our link link
tree.
You can get to it as well.

(01:17:54):
Um, please follow us oninstagram.
We do a lot of uh, educationalpieces, also just insights into
you know what ovum's doing, howwe're doing, how you use ovum
and yeah, we just want as manywomen signed up as possible so
you can get as much honestfeedback, and I think that that
is it.
If you have any questions, youcan email me as well at

(01:18:16):
arielaheffernan-marks atovumtechnologycom, happy to
answer any questions that youmay have.
Oh, and our crowdfunding.
We are running a crowdfundingcampaign.
It's our last week.

Oh cool.

So we and you were there for the pitch
so obviously have met ourinitial stretch goal of $20,000.
We've nearly raised another, Ithink another $2,000, but we're
trying to stretch to $25,000.
So if anyone's interested inpledging an amount, it can be as
small as $10.
We have collaborated with a lotof women's empowerment brands

(01:18:47):
who have offered discounts offtheir products.
So if you donate X amount, youcan get a reward for helping
contribute to the development ofOvum.
So that's another way in whichwe're trying to raise money
without, I guess, giving awayany equity, and also building
community of people andsupporters and, you know,
getting everyone involved in thejourney.

Love it.
It makes total sense.
We've been exploring somethinglike that.

Ariella Heffernan-Ma (01:19:09):
eventually , maybe too it's difficult, but
it's fun and it's a greatlearning process.

That it is Well.

Thanks so much, I appreciate you coming
out some time, greatconversation.

Really really great Good to hear.

Yeah.

Thank you for tuning in to another episode.
We hope you enjoyed thisconversation.
It was a cracker.
We really enjoyed sitting downwith Ariella and look forward to
watching this continue to growand evolve over time.
It's such an awesome concept.
So if you are female bodied,please do consider exploring
this and checking it out.

(01:19:44):
We think it could be a reallyuseful thing and we would love
to see her succeed.
Just a quick update from us wehave officially launched our
impact program.
So if you would like anythingup to three months of free lab
space at our new facility inNotting Hill and you're doing
impact oriented innovation thatbenefits either people or the

(01:20:05):
planet and is bio-based orbio-inspired, please do reach
out to us.
We would love to be able tosupport you and help you bring
your concept from ideation toactualization.
Please don't hesitate to reachout at hello at colabscomau and
we can give you any moreinformation you might want.

(01:20:26):
Yeah, cool all.
See you later.

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The Future of Female Healthcare with Ariella Heffernan-Marks from Ovum AI | #11

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Future of Female Healthcare with Ariella Heffernan-Marks from Ovum AI | #11