The Lab Manual: Navigating the Challenges of Building Lab Space with Aaron Budai from Amicus | #10 - The Strange Attractor

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Strange Attractor, an
experimental podcast from CoLabs, a transdisciplinary innovation
hub and biotechnologyco-working lab based in
Melbourne, australia.
I'm your co-host, sam Wines,and alongside my co-founder,
andrew Gray, we'll delve deepinto the intersection of biology
, technology and society throughthe lens of complexity and

(00:22):
systems thinking.
Join us on a journey ofdiscovery as we explore how
transdisciplinary innovation,informed by life's regenerative
patterns and processes, couldhelp us catalyze a transition
towards a thriving future forpeople and the planet.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of the Strange Attractor

(00:45):
.
This week we sat down withAaron Budai from Amicus Labline.
Amicus is.
Hello and welcome.
This week we sat down with AaronBudai from Amicus Labline and
Amicus Amicus.

(01:05):
Labline does labs, amicus doesoffice space, so they design and
construct those sorts of spaces.
So we reached out to them wayback when we first started with
our lab and asked if they'd bekeen to give us some free
benches, and obviously they didnot.
But what they did do was giveus a lot of mentoring and advice

(01:29):
and support with building ourlab to ensure that we um, I just
guess made the right decisions.
And off the back of you knowone or two years of having this
relationship, um, we ended upworking with them, I guess, on
the Notting Hill site that we'vegot that'll be opening up in a
month and a half.
So, yeah, they helped, I guess,orchestrate and pull all that

(01:53):
together.
So, instead of Sam and Andrewbuilding it from scratch by hand
, there's a team of 30 to 40contractors on site every day
working a way to make this newsite and it's going to be
something that's really, reallyspecial.
So, yeah, we thought we'd sitdown with Aaron, just given all
the awesome advice he's given usover the years, and we thought

(02:13):
we'd share it so that anyonewho's looking to build a lab or
would like some thoughts aroundwhat might be the next steps,
what to keep an eye out for whenlooking for a space to
consolidate and have you knowwhether it's PC2 space, clean
room, office space, whatever.
This is kind of the podcast foryou, so in it we'll go through

(02:38):
some key sort of things that youwant to be paying attention to.
That will just save you so muchtime, money and stress if you
don't consider these at theonset.
Yeah, oh, enjoy thisconversation with aaron from
amicus lab line are we doinghere?
now pretty pretty much, or closeto we're yeah, we're.

(03:00):
So I think, is this comfortable?
This is comfortable, I kind oflike leaning back in the chair
80, 90% full.
So there's maybe four benchesthat are still vacant and that
only happened recently.
So Alt Leather and Cimex theyended up graduating.

(03:21):
So one went to JumarBioincubator, one went to Monash
Innovation Hub I can't rememberexactly what the name was down
there.
I mean, both just left becauseyou know they needed equipment
and they're their partners.
So it seems like a naturalprogression, so unfortunate for
us but fortunate for theecosystem as a whole, that

(03:43):
there's still a place they cango to keep, you know, going on
that adventure and, yeah, theymight end up coming back down to
monash, obviously, becausethat'll be near their partners
and that means they can have,you know, the platform access as
well as maybe one or twobenches that are 24 7 access.
So it's a really interestingthing we're starting to see as
companies grow is that you knowthey can consolidate but they

(04:04):
can still tap into thesedifferent resources, and I guess
that's what we're trying to sayto these other partners.
Isn't, you know, like there's a?
There's there is a, a way tocollaborate and work together,
um, where you know, you know wemight have members in in jumar
and colabs or monash innovationand colabs, and the point being
that being that we're a bit moreflexible and 24-7 access, and

(04:28):
then it just is a little biteasier to get in and out of and
experiment with things, whereasif you might need that high sort
of platform tech, which mightbe a couple of million dollars a
piece, or some real specific, Iguess, knowledge that comes
from a professor or a partner,then to me that just makes total
sense.
Uh, so we'll see.
See how that goes but, yeah,it's pretty full and we've got a

(04:50):
couple of new people startingas well.
Um so oncopass and onco innate,um so just two cancer
diagnostic, one for prostatecancer and then the other for
breast cancer, but can also beused for multiple other cancers.

Speaker 2 (05:04):
I'm meeting a company on Friday that looks like
they've got the patent inAustralia for materials that
biodegrade in less than likeclothing that biodegrades within
less than 12 months.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
Interesting.
Is it PHA based or is it kelpbased?
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
I'll let you know on Friday.

Speaker 1 (05:31):
That's so fascinating .
Are they Australian?

Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yeah, sorry, are they Australian?
Well, he's Australian Chinese,but it sounds like it's already
proven in the EU and NorthAmerica.
So I don't know whether he'sjust got the patent locally or
how he relates to those otherentities, but I'm really looking
forward to meeting him onFriday.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
I'd be interested to know, from your perspective, if
you've seen a shift towards more, I guess, innovation.
That is, trying to be circularor bio-based, or trying to not
just continue business as usualbut experimenting with new ways
of doing.

Speaker 2 (06:11):
If you have had many of those come through, I have,
but I think that's what thispodcast is really about is the
new is those companies with newideas and how they can begin to
develop their ideas before theyget into full-scale
commercialisation.
So I mean I see a fair few ofthose.
I think broadly the kind ofcompany that we have serviced.

(06:36):
You know noting my stepfatherstarted this stuff in about 1987
, we've gone from seeinginstitutions like educational
institutions being the majorbusiness that we, we support to
uh to a much wider range of r&dthat's done in australia now.
That really used to go offshorepretty soon after it was after

(06:59):
the initial design work was done.
So I think that in itself isexciting, and I don't do a lot
anymore in the educational space.
We seem to do a lot more forprivate business, which in
itself is fantastic.

Speaker 1 (07:15):
So, with that sort of transition, what do you think
has driven that so to keepkeeping things onshore?
Do you think it's uh,government funding or more
support what's driven people to?

Speaker 2 (07:29):
do.
I think covid just shook themarket completely.
Um, that's my personal opinionand um, when I went to
university showing my age herebut when I went to university
and studied economics andaccountancy, everything was
about globalisation.
So people looked at what theircore strengths were and they

(07:53):
developed.
The industry was driven todevelop along those lines.
In the last five years, we'veseen this giant push towards um,
domestically being able to beself-sufficient and to create,

(08:13):
keep ip on shore, which is amassive shift, right like there
was this whole thing aboutglobal markets 30 years ago.
That just doesn't.
It's not as relevant today, orit is as relevant, but there is
a, there's a protectionistelement to what we want to have
in a smart economy in Australia.
I mean, you could even say isyou know, don't want to get all

(08:35):
political, but Malcolm Turnbull,he was very big on that as well
.
He was very big on creating asmart economy and I think
there's been R&d incentives andbeyond that from state and
national governments now for alittle while yeah, things like
um, like breakthrough, victoria,and then the national

(08:55):
reconstruction fund.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
You know, obviously they have their issues, but I do
see them as fundamentally astep in the right direction.
It's just hopefully, yeah,there still is this big pattern
that hasn't been fully brokenabout.
A startup will do really wellhere, and then the next space is
they obviously end up movingover to America.
And it's interesting to thinklike, well, how could we

(09:20):
potentially maintain like a headof operations or like the HQ
here still, but then also havethose satellites over in America
, because there is a really goodwork-life balance here and I
think I can't imagine there'sany other reason, apart from the
economic reason, to sort of goover there and set up shop at
the moment, just giveneverything that's happening over
there I mean I don't know howmany brands we should talk about

(09:43):
today, but ResMed, obviously,Sleep Apnea device was designed
and developed in Australia.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
Their head office is now over in North America, but
their innovation hub is thismagnificent centre out at.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
You guys built that, didn't you?

Speaker 2 (09:59):
Norwest.
Yeah, we're involved with somework over there at the moment,
but it's a really, reallyimpressive centre of excellence
that they've got going on there.
They acknowledge that one greatidea commercially can be worth
billions, so they've kept thatcentre of excellence here in

(10:21):
Australia, which I think isgreat for Australia and
Australian scientists, you know.
So I think there will always bethis glitter, excitement of
moving to maybe somewhere morecentral in Asia or to America to

(10:43):
set up as your hub.
But I think you're right, thereis a standard of living here, a
quality of life that is veryattractive.
People want to work here and Ithink I'm going off subject a
bit, but there's a real interestin making laboratories now, or

(11:05):
life science environments,whatever you want to call them
more appealing to graduates.
There's an acknowledgement thatthere's a paper written a couple
of years ago.
I'm going to make a I'm scaredI'm going to get the name of the
author wrong but what itactually stated was a data
scientist has an option.

(11:26):
They can either it's a goodexample of somebody who can
either find themselves in lifesciences or in a laboratory per
se or they can find themselvesworking for an investment bank.
So you're competing for thesame graduate, so you've got to
create an environment that'sattractive to those graduates.
And certainly what you guys aredoing here and what we're

(11:46):
seeing at other sort ofcutting-edge companies have
acknowledged that and it'sbroad-based.
People either get that,particularly if the science is
central to what theorganisation's looking to
deliver on.
If they understand that it'scentral to what they're looking

(12:10):
to deliver on, they understandthat it's the hub of the
organisation, it's the heartbeatof the organisation and
therefore the people who work inthat space need to have the
kudos and appreciation of whatthey're doing.
I still see scenarios whereit's a support function maybe
it's a quality assurance arm ofa food company, for example and

(12:33):
they've got the lab hidden outthe back and, quite frankly,
they don't want to spend anymoney on it.
I understand that it's anoverhead in that scenario, but
you've still got to get theright people right, so you've
still got to be able to trackthe right kind of employee.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
I just find it so fascinating that in the life
sciences a lot of the time thebuildings that are made are so
anti-life or just so unappealingfrom like.
There's no biophilic orbiomimetic design.
I understand there's verystringent requirements that a
lab has to meet, but it isinteresting how there's a
stereotype of what people thinka lab has to look like and it
does really feel like that'sstarting to be.
At least the mold of that'sstarting to be broken a little

(13:16):
bit and we're starting to seemore colorful or creative things
sort of starting to happen.
At least.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
I know we're trying to push you in that direction
with the uh, with the monashbuild, which I know you've got
your own opinions on yeah, Ilove that build and um, you know
anyone listening to thispodcast who gets a chance to
stick their nose into thatcolabs um hub when it's
completed, I think, first weekof july, end of june.
It's worth a visit, um, I thinkI think generally.

(13:44):
Uh, you're absolutely correct.
You can put a desk anywhere,you can put a lab bench anywhere
.
You can choose what theenvironment's going to be like,
the people working, obviously,um, if you have, if you require
a controlled environment, whichfrom which the person's doing
the work in, um, you need tocontrol airflow and the like.

(14:05):
But you can choose the coloursof the room, you can choose
whether there's natural light,for example, and historically
you know it was an afterthought,that kind of thing and it's not
anymore.
And I'm dealing with alaboratory up in Queensland at

(14:25):
the moment and there's a tensionbetween the CFO finance, of
course and the scientists andit's a genetics-based business
and the, I'm pleased to say Ithink design's going to win over
because they acknowledge thatthey need to attract the right

(14:47):
kind of talent.
They will also attract the rightkind of client if they have an
attractive laboratory for whichpeople come and see how they're
working.
I've seen scenarios actuallydown here in Victoria where a
major brand has lost customers.

(15:07):
It's a NADA certifiedlaboratory but when the
customers have come to do a sitevisit, they've walked into the
lab and just shocked how justdated it looks.
There's an expectation that ifyou're a tier one company
looking for a testing lab, thetesting lab's going to be

(15:32):
providing an environment fortheir team members that is
consistent with what you deliverto yours.
So there's definitely a changeand there will always be
multiple tiers of company andmultiple tiers of fit out.
But I think the days of I thinkreally really dated

(15:55):
laboratories will more and moreimpact people's ability to
attract good quality talent.

Speaker 1 (16:03):
Are you finding because Amicus Labline obviously
affiliated with Amicus, soyou're doing a lot of the time
you are doing the co-working orlike the, what do you call it
office space as well as labspace?
Are you finding that there isnow more of a consideration of
the interplay between the two?
So how do these two relate toone another?
How can we have the lab in alocation with convenient, like

(16:27):
breakout or huddle spaces withinthe lab and then maybe
something adjacent, like?
Are people starting to considerthe whole environment, the work
environment, as a single thing,or is it still quite segmented?

Speaker 2 (16:41):
It's an excellent question and it really depends
on the organisation and howforward thinking the C-suite is.
So and I think it goes back tomy initial point where if the
C-suite sees the laboratory as aprofit centre, if it sees it's

(17:07):
essential to its ability to makemoney, to attract and when I
say make money that might notjust be the technology they have
, but being able to maybe hirethe right talent to be able to
develop ideas then it seemshighly integrated.

(17:31):
Where it is seen purely as acost centre, it's a harder and
it makes sense that it's aharder decision for the C-suite.
It's obvious, right?
So it's much harder when youneed to spend let's call it a

(17:53):
million dollars updating alaboratory space.
If all you're doing is updatingit to do what you did yesterday
, to perform the same functionsthat you did last year and the
year before.
Then the CFO turns to the restof the C-suite and says well, do
you want to spend a milliondollars updating the lab or do

(18:13):
you want to spend a milliondollars on sales and marketing?
You know trialling in newmarkets, whatever, most C-suites
will spend money.
You know trying to grow thebusiness, and that's
understandable.
But at some point it's a pinchat some point yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah, and I imagine that wouldn't necessarily be the
case for more tech-drivenbusinesses like so those in deep
tech, biotech, health tech, medtech, any of those fun words
with tech after it.
I imagine for them, given thenature of what they're doing,
and especially those who arebeginning to emerge, for them
the lab would very much be thefront and centrepiece.

(18:58):
Right it is.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
And then the question becomes how much they want to
spend and how long they thinkthey're going to be at that
particular site you know um, Imean, when we sat down we said
we're going to this chat today.
It's going to be pretty muchfocused on that, and oh, we're
getting there we are gettingthere, it's a non-linear
conversation I can see overthere over there sweating about

(19:21):
this is so off script yeahthat's right.
So, look, I think the hardestthing for people to do it
doesn't really matter what stageof life the organisation is at
is to sort of get their headaround how long they think

(19:42):
they're going to be in thecurrent location, the next
location, how long they thinkthey're going to be in the
current location, the nextlocation, because you know the
cost per square metre of thefit-out is easily five times the
cost of probably let's call itfour to seven times the cost of
a fit-out of an office space.
So when people are looking atthe space they go well, how long

(20:06):
a lease do I want to sign?
And my initial comment normallyis well, like, you need to sign
a long enough lease to ensureyou get a return on your
investment.
And it's very different torenting office space where you
might be able to just go intoeither a rented office or I

(20:28):
don't know just a place that'sgot a desk in it.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah, it's way more generic.
It's like wheat when you'recompeting with different types
of wheat to make a pasta.
It's very much a price thing.
People can jump around andchange suppliers.
There's so much of it out there, whereas the labs are way more
of a sticky sort of ingredient.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
That's right.
And I mean I remember talkingto you four years ago.
You know like we're talkingabout.
Was it four years ago?
Oh gosh, uh, yes, it was fouryears ago.
So we're talking about fouryears ago and you know like you
guys were setting up.
I mean, I was just so impressedwith the idea of collabs and um
, and we're sitting there and wewere talking about, well, how
long a lease have you signed?
You told me the length of thelease, which wasn't very long.

(21:13):
I think it was a one plus oneplus one.
Yeah, that's right, I'll let yousay it, I wasn't going to say
it and I guess the naive side ofit is well a risk averse
approach because, um, because,if things don't work out, you
can get out of the lease.
The downside, of course, was ifyou got kicked out of the site,
you'd be throwing away animmense amount of investment of

(21:36):
capital that had just been tocreate the environment that you
needed, fit for purpose for thepc, your first pc2 labs, right,
yeah?
So going back to your originalquestion, which was really
around how much do people spendin those different tech spaces?

(21:57):
The first question really tendsto be well, how long do they
think they're going to be therefor?
Because if they really believethat they're only going to be
there for three years or fiveyears, then everything should be
done to just make it fit forpurpose.
It's when people start toestablish that they're going to
be there for seven to ten, theythink, okay, you need to start
designing something that is fitfor purpose.

(22:18):
Today there's growth capacityto grow in, and I'm not just
talking about the amount ofspace that you're taking on, I'm
also talking about particularlythe mechanical solution, also
the amount of power available tothat, to that site.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
um, they're probably two of the key ones, so what's
mechanical, if you could justrun over that, assuming that
someone might be slightly awareof it's like a lot of these
people they know the, they knowthe tech inside out, but they
not necessarily know the wallswithin which they're building
their tech.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
Sure.
So mechanical engineering isprobably, in my mind at least,
is the lead engineeringdiscipline you need in designing
a laboratory, and what thatdoes is it controls your airflow
, your air pressure, yourhumidity extraction.
Air pressure, your humidityextraction should you require it
, whether that be for fume orfor dust.

(23:10):
Your laboratory gas runs.
All those mechanical tank labruns so like if you've got argon
.

Speaker 1 (23:21):
CO2 pipes or anything .

Speaker 2 (23:23):
That all falls under mechanical engineering
engineering and it's a reallykey engineering element.
Now, if you know that you'retaking on a space that, um,
you've currently got, let's callit, 100 square meters.
There's two of you on day one,but you know you need 100 square
meters because really, from acommercialisation perspective,

(23:47):
you know that you're going tohave five people in the room in
six months' time and you'regoing to have an extra two fume
cupboards.
Then you really need toconsider the amount of
replacement air you're going toneed to be pumped into I'm
assuming a PC2 lab here, in ascenario where you're putting in
two more fume cupboards or youhave all the conditioned air you

(24:10):
require in a room thatpreviously had two people in
it's going to need seven in itgoing forward.
So all of that, a goodmechanical engineer will collect
all that information from youwhen you're doing your wish list
on day one.
I mean, we certainly had thatissue with you guys at the
Monash site trying to identifyexactly how many fume cupboards

(24:38):
you were going to do on day one,how many thoughts you would
need in two years, three years,five years' time, and therefore
we have the amount of makeup airthat you need to put into that
space and and it's a really youdon't need to necessarily put in
a system that is going to workat 100 on day one, but you need,
like a capacity on day one.

(24:59):
But you need to know that youcan add on to it reasonably
cost-effectively, as opposed tobe tearing out systems to put in
larger systems, because thatmechanical solution will be the
most expensive part of mostlaboratories built so if I'm
reading between the lines there,it's over spec.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
If you're planning on growing in the long term in a
space just due to the fact thatinevitably, you will end up
probably upgrading?

Speaker 2 (25:28):
yes, you will and and or over spec, and, or have
discussions with your mechanicalengineer about how you would
grow from there yeah, so it'sthe.

Speaker 1 (25:39):
The assumption is that there is more space to grow
or something that likes tobecome.
It's not that you know you're ina steady state with what you're
doing and and sustaining thecurrent thing, it's that
trajectory of growth.
So that's almost, I guess aswell.
I guess it's it's you're gonnabe mechanical involved and then
obviously also a strategy teamand everyone figuring all that
out and finance, because it is adelicate balance right, and I

(26:01):
guess that's kind of why CoLabsexists is because if companies
they're going through theearlier stages, they can't
necessarily invest in those likethe long-term investment
because they haven't actuallyraised that much money and
hopefully we can help get themup to that point at which they
can then go off and sort ofbuild maybe their first lab by
themselves, anywhere from 100 to1,000 square.

(26:22):
And I guess we kind of existspecifically to address this
kind of problem.
But I guess it's fascinatingbecause inevitably the companies
that we're supporting are goingto get to that point where they
need to know this sort ofinformation and need to know
what's going on from amechanical perspective and
understanding what to keep aneye out for.
So you um, just to go back, toloop it back to where we were

(26:45):
before.
So you were saying mechanicalis key.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
Uh, we need to make sure that there's plenty of
amperage to the site yeah,they're the two key things and
the and and um, also um, theclass of building that you're,
that you're moving into.
So, outside of the length ofthe lease, if you're um, if
you're going to work with a fumecupboard, um, depending what

(27:10):
toxins and whatever else thatyou're dealing with, um, if you
have somebody's got a shed nextdoor to the local school, it's
unlikely that you'll be able toget that that space reclassified
to a lab.
It's more likely that youshould be in a light industrial
space in the first place and youdon't really want to be putting

(27:34):
a lab into a building that'snot classified to be allowed to
be a lab.
Now, generally speaking, if youlease space in an industrial
park which is already zoned forlight class, for light
industrial, it shouldn't be youwill need to go through a

(27:56):
certifier, but you will be ableto get the building reclassed.
I guess what I'm cautioningagainst is if, um, that scenario
where somebody's trying tolease a small warehouse next
door to a public park or uh, oruh, the local school or swimming
pool or or whatever else, andand it's just, it's just a

(28:18):
mistake for you to be leasingthat space.
There are better decisions thatcan be made.
So I'd caution anyone who doesthat.
So the other key thing of courseI always think about is
understanding what you're goingto put down the sink.
If you are putting toxins downa sink, then how do they need to

(28:43):
be treated before they hit thesewer, and will you need a
dilution pit?
Could you get away with it?
Well, if no one else knows whatyou're doing, well, maybe you
do for a while, but when you getcaught you're going to get
fined.
Well, if no one else knows whatyou're doing, well, maybe you
do for a while, but when you getcaught you're going to get
fined.
And if you go to a professionalbuilder at any stage to help you
with that work, they should begiving you that advice anyway.

(29:04):
So there are a range of thingsyou should be looking out for,
at least be asking questionsabout, I think generally.
Um and I can't remember whetherwe already touched on it if you
find an old work shed, it'spossible.
It's like an old schoolbuilding.
There's not enough electricitypower in it to run all of the

(29:25):
scientific tech that you need,but a more modern.
Did you need to upgrade thepower on the first shed?
No, we were sweet.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
Yeah, unit 17, unit 20 here they've all been fine.
I mean, you're obviouslyinvolved in it and it's an
ongoing saga with, um, withbroody still trying to sort out
the um, the energy load overthere, that being an old school
in brunswick.
Um, with one of our partners,impact neighborhoods, that we're
looking at building more spacethere.
We actually just started, um,the civic science foundation

(29:54):
there again, so we've justleased space.
I think we might be signing ittoday or tomorrow, uh, in one of
the other buildings.
But again, yeah, power being amajor issue for us and we are
trying to find a way to sortthat out.
And yeah, you can see howpeople could very easily burn
through money making a mistakeon either you know the power,
the length of the lease, um, youknow the class of the, all of

(30:16):
these sorts of things.
If you're making that kind ofmistake early on, that can cost
you so much in terms of expensesthat were unforeseen.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
It's just dead money.
That's the thing that bothersme about it and I talk to that a
fair bit, like there are thingsto me, there are things that
are worth spending money on thatimprove the environment which
you work in.
It's no different to you, know,if you're in an old house and
you've got to spend moneyredoing the roof, well, you know

(30:49):
you've got to redo the roof,but that's tens of thousands of
dollars you just have to spend.
But okay, the roof's better butyou're not enjoying the space
anymore, except for the factthat maybe you're not getting
wet.
If what you've got to do isspend tens of thousands of
dollars getting the right amountof power to your warehouse,

(31:11):
just so you can spend the othermoney to create the environment
in which you want to work, Ithink it's dead money and I
think good feasibility work upfront can help erase some of
that stuff.
Like I'm dealing with.
It seems like sort ofsequencing genetic sequencing.

(31:34):
It seems to be touching a fewfirms who are in that space at
the moment.
It's heavy power loadsequencing, genetic sequencing.
It seems to be touching a fewfirms who are in that space at
the moment.
It's heavy power load andthere's they're.
Probably that's a big part ofwhat they do and mechanical
infrastructure is another bigpart of it, just in terms of
it's got to be unidirectionalflow.

(31:54):
But where I wanted to go withthis, I met a startup, um, uh,
maybe two weeks ago, amazing phdstudent, she's got this
brilliant idea and she, um,she's my new passion project
after collabs collabs, you guysare no longer great far
developed to be a passionproject these days.
But um, really want to help herout.

(32:15):
And uh, she's got this block ofland which has got a couple of
buildings on it and she goes thefive car parks.
I'm going to take those carparks out and I'm going to build
out the building.
And I said, well, she's on amain road, across the road from
a hospital.
And I said I'm pretty sure thetown planner's going to tell you
there's a reason why those carpark spots are there and they're

(32:38):
not going to let you just getrid of the car park spots, and
should just.
This lady couldn't believe whatI said.
I could just see the shock onher face.
But it's a great example ofsomebody just thinking this is
perfect, I can do what I want onthis land.
Now that I've bought it, I'mgoing.
Yeah, it's not going to be thatstraightforward.
They're not going to let you.
When there's no car parkingspace on on the main road and

(33:01):
there's a the hospital parkingsfor the hospital across the road
, they're going to want you tokeep your car park spots, or at
least you should be finding outbefore you.

Speaker 1 (33:11):
you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars buying
this, buying this land right, sokind of checking your base
assumptions when it comes tojust because you own a thing
doesn't mean you necessarilyhave the right to do what you
think you can on it and that'sbased on the zoning, the
amperage to site and a couple ofother sort of factors.

(33:32):
Is there anything else that youthink?
So this is obviously, at thevery early stage, the
feasibility.
You're looking for land oryou're looking for a warehouse
to look at fitting out of space.
Is there anything else that youthink we haven't covered?

Speaker 2 (33:45):
yeah, it's sort of um .
I dealt with an entity a littlewhile ago that um, uh was
dealing in I don't really wantto get into the industry that it
was in too much, but what theywere getting delivery of.
They needed their own loadingdock right and they needed then

(34:15):
access to and from the loadingdock right and they needed then
access to and from the loadingdock without necessarily going
through, uh, like the main, theguts of the, the of the broader
of, of the larger um tendencies.
They they needed to be comingdirectly off their, off their um
, off their lab, and they'redealing with something

(34:36):
particularly sensitive and it'sa small thing, right, most
people wouldn't think about it.
Oh, I can have a loading dockand Well, no, sometimes,
depending on what you're doing,access to goods in, goods out is
a material issue for some labsin terms of what people want to

(34:56):
see come in and out of the in.
And out of the in out of thebuilding.
So it's another really goodexample of it.
The other, the other reallyobvious one, is if you're
building a lab, your idealbuilding is a warehouse.
It's not a.
It's not in a high-risebuilding, it's not in a.
You need access to the airabove you.

(35:18):
You need to if you want to puta fume cupboard in.
You need to be able to punchthrough the roof, not have to
negotiate with the upstairstenant about when and how you're
going to do that.
So if people are listening to usand they don't always we do end
up sometimes in a high-risebuilding trying to do
workarounds, or even a low-risebuilding on the ground floor.

(35:40):
You really want to control thespace above you and you really
want a high ceiling because thelikelihood is that you're going
to want a mechanical solutionthat requires maybe a metre of
space before your ceiling.
So let's take a PC2 lab, let'sassume a PC2 environment where

(36:06):
obviously you've got a sealedceiling, a non-porous sealed
ceiling, and all yourmechanical's got to be above
that and below the roof line.
Well, depending on what you'retrying to do, you may need as
much as a meter of space to runthose mechanical solutions
around and then have this, theum, and then be able to punch a
fume cupboard through up intothe atmosphere.

(36:27):
And again, you know, when youpunch it through you need to be
three meters above the highestpoint of the of the roof line.

Speaker 1 (36:35):
So there, there are things that you need to think
about that your mech engineerwill know all about so just to
riff on this, because this is areally big thing that we see
constantly coming all the time.
We have, um, super funds andowners of buildings coming to us
, going let's turn this intolabs, and they're there.
I guess why is it really hardto turn an office space into a

(36:55):
lab?
Uh, especially when you'retalking about that ceiling
height, is it?
It's so correct me if I'm wrongthere the regular ceiling
height of an office space, ifyou do that, um, put in that
meter clearance, it kind ofbrings the roof really really
low.
Like can you even legally do?

Speaker 2 (37:13):
that I think you can probably get it in.
It's just like you can workwithin less than a meter.
It's just tough, you know.
You're just making everythinghard and generally there's a
core that takes all the serviceruns right.
So things like if you're goingto have your mechanical services

(37:33):
for okay, I'm going to go backa step, sure services for okay,
I'm going to go back a step,sure.
So, dealing with a site, at themoment the lab is on a middle
floor of a about a 10-storybuilding and we need fresh air

(37:55):
to be to come into the pc2 lab.
So it's not 100 fresh air foranyone thinking out there that
just opening a window, yeah.
Well, not so much that thatthere's a hepa filter going in
and out or whatever, but more sothat you never have 100 outside
air going into an airconditioning unit.
There's a recirculation of airwithin the space, but if you

(38:17):
assume that there's let's callit, 50 of the air coming into
the, into the mech unit for thatlab, that's coming from an
external source and then let'ssay that it is a a positively
pressured room.

Speaker 1 (38:35):
So why would people want a positively pressured room
?

Speaker 2 (38:40):
well, if, um, then because they don't want any air
from the hallway to come intothe room, right?
So contamination, yes, right,okay, cool.
So, like quite often we'll dealwith particularly I was talking
about genetic sequencing.
They've got unilateral.
They'll quite often have somerooms that they want positively
pressured and then their dirtierlabs can be negatively
pressured, but they're allsitting within the same pc2

(39:03):
environment, if that kind ofmakes sense yeah so just think
about the fact that from fromthe lab that is getting the
clean air coming in, it's got toexpel the air that's been
through that lab and it's no usethat air that's being expelled
going out the same side of thebuilding that you've just
brought in the clean air,because then you're just going

(39:23):
to recirculate it through.
So all of a sudden you've gotto get access from a building,
you've got to get permissionfrom a building owner to punch
holes in two vertical walls,external walls.
One side's going to take in thefresh air and one's going to
expel the contaminated air.

(39:44):
That's probably got to bepushed through a HEPA filter as
well.

Speaker 1 (39:47):
And does it have to go up like a stack?
Would it also block off windows?

Speaker 2 (39:50):
Yeah, you won't be allowed to put it through a
stack.
You're going to have to allwork it in your ceiling.
And so, because there will besome mechanical on the roof
which will be there to servicethe whole building, the reality
is you're not going to be ableto use most of it because it's
recirculating through the wholebuilding, right?
So the other thing is there's awhole and I probably should

(40:11):
have said this first off there'sa whole lot of fit out that's
in an office space that you'renot going to use.
You're not going to use theirmechanical system or you're only
going to use their airconditioning system.
For that percentage of yourfloor that's office space.
So everything that's laboratoryspace on the assumption that
it's not a dirty lab, so it'sPC2 or above.

(40:33):
You're going to be building amechanical like an additional
mechanical solution to sort thatarea.
So it really is quite a messysolution.
A lot of high-end meditechcompanies want to be in these

(40:54):
high-rise buildings because,well, that's where their brand,
that's where they need to be.
But it's an expensive building.
It's a really expensivebuilding.
So that's a great example ofwhy not.
And I think generally there'sjust so much of an office space
that you're going to just demoto put in a lab, right that

(41:14):
you're not going to be able tokeep.
And then you've got and youwould have had this already.
You would have had people comeup to you and say, hey, caleb,
yeah, I've got this space andda-da-da, and do you want to
take it over?
And then we get asked the waypeople spec suite an office
space, they go, oh, maybe we canspec suite a lab.

(41:36):
I say, well, the differencebetween university labs and
commercial labs is universitylabs and csiro probably falls
into the same category.
They will be established formulti-use so they will put in
you know, four or five differentlaboratory.
Gas runs into every room andevery room will have a fume

(41:59):
cupboard in it and every roomwill have dangerous goods,
multiple dangerous goodscabinets.
In the commercial world that'sjust way too expensive.
So you actually choose whatservices you put in.

Speaker 1 (42:11):
I was going to say that sounds like a dream for us
but there's no way.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
I don't know how much more expensive that would have
been it's nuts right A couple ofextra grand a square meter you
know, like you just have to lookat the cost of you know,
stainless steel piping orwhatever for some of the some of
the lab gases, and it's just,it just doesn't make any sense.
So when I get asked about specsuiting a laboratory, the first
thing that comes to mind for usis well, you have to tell us

(42:37):
what you're going to telltenants they have to install
versus what's going to be therefor them on day one.
And we've had this conversationwith you guys, right.

Speaker 1 (42:44):
Constantly yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
And it's really, really hard because for some
tenants, there are going to bethings that if you don't provide
, it's a non-starter.
There are some tenants and Ithink we had this conversation
with you guys that require agenerator or that require a cool
room or require a walk-infreezer, and if you don't have
those things on site, then it'ssimply, you know, it's it's.

(43:10):
It's not a suitable locationfor them.
But for you guys to put in youknow know, $80,000, $100,000
walk-in freezer that people mayor may not use or may use
because it's there instead oftheir own freezers that you're
paying for it just doesn't makeany sense.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
It has been interesting having to
essentially kind of try to do Iguess, to use the words that
you've used like a universityCSIRO light.
So it's like what are 20% thatwill get you 80% of the way, and
then that is kind of what we'redesigned to and support, whilst
then also still providing theoption for people to modularise

(43:48):
it or customise it based ontheir needs, which is just a
whole other level of difficulty,whilst trying to also do it in
a price competitive sort ofmanner.
But I think we've done a.
I think we've done a nice job.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
You've done a great job.
I wouldn't be without all yourhelp.
You've done a great job.
No, no, you have, and I knowyour space well.
I can't wait to show it off,quite frankly, and I'm sure
you'll be.
I know it's your space, butyou'll be getting many amicus
lab visitors through there.

Speaker 1 (44:18):
I'd say it's a joint project.
You know it's a shared baby.
I noticed just you saying thatmade me have a giggle about
seeing a photo of you on theslab up on the second story and
just how stoked you were.
That was great.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
Yeah, look it's we kind of touched on it at the
beginning, like how longLabline's been around for.
But my stepfather started doingthis in the mid-'80s, initially
as furniture, and he's now 82.
And I can't wait to bring himdown and show him.

(44:54):
I want him to come to thelaunch because he's it's a
milestone moment.
I think it's a really you'vecome to see some of our more
innovative labs in the past andand you've taken from that and

(45:15):
then stepped it up and said youwant it to be an attractive
workplace as well as aninnovative space, and I think
that's what's going to well.
I know that's what's beingdelivered.
So I've never seen a clientthat engaged in the colour
scheme.

Speaker 1 (45:35):
Andrew couldn't care less.
Just to clarify who's the pestfrom the client side.
Yeah, um, but yeah, I do thinkthere's there's something to
trying to be, you know,biophilic, biomimetic, trying to
acknowledge the colors of thecountry or the place that you're
from and trying to weave all ofthat into a building so that it

(45:55):
feels like a representation ofyour environment.
I feel like buildings in thepast and the architecture of the
past was really good at kind ofbridging the human nature
divide and making it seem, youknow, one and the same, whereas
I feel like, um, industrialrevolution and the kind of way
we've gone with with most ofindustrial sort of spaces and
unfortunately science falls alot into that.

(46:17):
Um, you know, especially in thelast 150 years, the spaces have
become way more mechanized andand lifeless, so to speak.
So it's been a really funproject trying to bring a bit
more of that sort of well Ithink even the word homogenous
right, you know, like it's been.

Speaker 2 (46:32):
It's become quite bland and homogenous and, um, a
few years ago I haven't givenhim any kudos yet but my partner
, who's a lot more creative thanI, am my business partner, john
Rogo a few years ago there wasa school in Bondi and he made
everything that always just beenwhite, you know, or white with

(46:53):
a black frame.
He started to change it up andeach room, each one of these
different school labs, he maychange the colour of the frames
of the lab benches, right, andit was amazing the impact that
had.
And at the end of the day,you're trying to motivate kids

(47:16):
to learn and it's very, veryimpactful.
And we're now doing, you know,done it since multiple times and
we're looking at a, talking toa school up at Noosa at the
moment and certainly they've gotsome creative ideas and just
trying to inspire are probablythe word I'm looking for.

(47:37):
I mean, he's on that journeywith you, 100%.
I'm the guy just going.
Can we please just get thisthing built?
But between you, john and James, there's a lot of focus on
colour schemes that I'm not usedto quite seeing, but it will be
certainly worth it.
I bloody hope so, that's forsure it's been a lot of effort.

(48:00):
I want to go back on something,and we're talking about the
creative spaces and what'schanged?
There is a space that you'vebeen down to at Port Melbourne
Australian Road Research Board.
I think they've changed theirname now but they're still down
there.
You can Google Australian RoadResearch Board.
I think they've changed theirname now but they're still down
there.
You can Google Australian RoadResearch Board.

(48:22):
I'm sure you'll find them.
And the CEO of the organisationit was about five years ago now
, he was instrumental in thedesign of that laboratory
basically said you know, the labis central to this business and
there's not a place in thatoffice space where you can't
look into the lab and see whatthey're doing.

(48:42):
And it's just, we still gothere regularly.
We still regularly take clientsthere because it's an
inspirational space.
You know, and that's five yearsold now, that space, and still
to this day, you know, you walkin there and you go.
People would love walking intowork here.

Speaker 1 (49:02):
It definitely.
I think it's a timeless sort ofbuild that you've put into that
space.

Speaker 2 (49:07):
And it was an old warehouse.
If you saw what it looked likebeforehand.
It was an old warehouse, reallythe whole thing was a warehouse
.
Huh, so even that front section, the whole thing, the whole
thing was a warehouse.
So even that front section, thewhole thing, the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (49:18):
There you go.

Speaker 2 (49:19):
I think it was a furniture warehouse and I'm
going to guess the total spacewould be 3,000, 3,500.

Speaker 1 (49:29):
At least.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
The place is massive and the design of it is just
magnificent and I think you cando that with labs.
You can do that in science, youcan make them really appealing
and the integration between thatand the office space.
I think you know bouncingaround again, I think that it's

(49:53):
still a very traditional spacelabs when it comes to that.
So when I try and talk tobusinesses about hot desking and
not needing a dedicated deskfor somebody to write up at when
they're not working in the lab,that still can be quite a tough
thing to get people's headaround.
Okay, yeah, because most otherareas of office operations these

(50:21):
days people are working fromhome two, three days a week or
whatever.
So the concept of hot deskingis a lot more acceptable.
But to try and explain in someenvironments to scientists that
you don't need your own desk forthe one hour a day that you're
writing up, or two hours a dayor the one day a week, but we

(50:42):
can create this flexibleenvironment which you can sit
and stand in different placeswhile you're doing that work,
it's still harder than you maythink to get the science
community to think that way.

Speaker 1 (50:55):
Well, it's kind of worked here thus far and I don't
know if that's just because ofuh, they're forced to interact
with the environment the waythat we have kind of co-designed
it to.
I mean the whole, the wholestructure of it has been to be
flexible and supportive ofinnovation and trying to help
encourage people to bump intoeach other and have
conversations that might lead tosomething sort of happening
like we've very much engineeredthe of innovation and trying to
help encourage people to bumpinto each other and have

(51:17):
conversations that might lead tosomething sort of happening
like we've very much engineeredthe entire ecosystem and the
space that we've got tofacilitate dialogue and
innovation and collaborativeconsumption, and it's been
interesting to see that that isthe culture that emerges based
on this, the like, the buildthat you do, the infrastructure
that you put in, and thenobviously you know I would be

(51:39):
remiss to not also speak to theway in which we try and operate
as a business is quite differentand a bit more relational, um,
and collaborative, and then tome it makes sense that then what
comes from that is a culture ofcollaboration and cooperation
and and helping out andsupporting one another, and I do
really feel like that is thedirection that innovation spaces
that are bio-led will end upgoing in, as it feels like a

(52:05):
much more natural way toinnovate and collaborate.
And I'd be really curious tosort of I don't know how I would
even be able to gather data onthis, but being able to observe
different spaces that havedifferent, I guess,
configurations and how they, howthey do innovate or how they
relate look, I completely agreewith you.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
Um, you've got an interesting scenario here where
you've got a lot of very brightpeople working on independent
projects, collaborating atdifferent times, and it's a
little bit, um humbling when youwalk in here.
I was waiting for you today,sitting there waiting to start

(52:44):
and looking at all theseextremely bright young people
collaborate.
It's really, really exciting.
It made me think of something,though just like in
organisations, unlike here,which is obviously multiple
organisations working together,thinking the flexibility of a

(53:07):
laboratory space to createinnovation, so people can come
together then go away, issomething we're seeing.
We're getting asked a lot morefor today than maybe five years
ago.
I think that's moving quitequickly.
So they say, okay, I need a PC2environment, I need a fume

(53:28):
cupboard in that PC2 environment, or I need a couple of you know
netterman hoods that I can drawdown over different experiments
, but I want the room to remainas flexible and mobile as
possible.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
So the furniture requirements in that room.

Speaker 2 (53:43):
I don't want to put too much furniture in the room,
or I might want to put.
I want to be able to draw stuffdown from the ceiling because I
don't know how I want to set upthe room in six months or 12
months, I don't know whichpeople from the organisation I
want to put in the room to worktogether in six months or 12
months' time to sort of createand I love creating those spaces

(54:04):
because it's quite challenging,particularly in a PC2
environment like to createflexibility of how you're going
to set up a room and then haveservices available to flex is
actually quite hard and you know, I know they're not really a

(54:27):
competitor of yours, PlanetInnovation.
Down the way, it was one oftheir big asks when they were.

Speaker 1 (54:33):
That design that we had a look at was stunning.
I believe it might have beenPlanet Innovation ones, with
their consent, I believe thatwas a stunning space.
You had like the little huddlerooms that's right, where you
could kind of come in and have achat about things that were
within the lab, but they werestill part of the lab.

(54:53):
I can't remember if they wereclosed off like a booth.

Speaker 2 (54:56):
That one they the one I'm thinking of.
There was because, um, in myopinion you might just.
I think people who move intoplanet innovation are probably a
step further along thecommercialization road than what
those who are at colabs I wouldsay that is a safe guess.

Speaker 1 (55:18):
I feel like I like correct me if I'm wrong, but it
feels like a lot of things goingto planet innovation might be
uh, like an existingorganization that has something
or is trying to work onsomething with a larger budget
let's say that's correct.

Speaker 2 (55:32):
Yeah, so I tend to think that you know, they're a
little bit further down thatroad and, okay, right, we're
ready to move into, you know,turning our idea, our R&D into,
to commercialise it, to turn itinto something real.
And they need space.
Now, what Planet Innovationdoesn't know, on day one, is
what kind of space they need,how much space they need.

(55:53):
So, obviously, you know, know,they've got a beautiful clean
room in there as well that wedesigned.
But there are other spaces thatare quite flexible in the way
that they can work and and theycan, they can bring furniture in
and take it out.
For that reason, and, um, um, Ithink, um, I think, if

(56:15):
australia continues to go downthis sort of smart route which
I'm so grateful that we aregreat for future generations
things like GMP facilities andhow they can flex to change,
depending on what they'reactually going to do in there,
is going to be really, reallyimportant.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
Yeah, we're seeing.
I mean I'm so glad that youended it there because I was
going to attempt to wrangle itin that direction anyway, but we
are seeing that um happen.
So quite a lot of peoplereaching out to us are saying
have you got gmp facilities?
Have you got clean roomfacilities?
Um, and, and that's kind ofspurred us on to have a think
about, well, what would aflexible clean room facility?
I know we've had thesediscussions what would a

(56:55):
flexible clean room facilitylook like?
How could you set up some ofthese spaces, you know,
potentially in partnership withthe government or somewhere else
, where you can um sort of flexin and people might come in for,
you know, a small amount oftime to prototype and experiment
and iterate?
So these sorts of, I guess,innovation clusters or hubs
where you could have a cleanroom next to a production

(57:16):
facility or production line orall of this sort of stuff, is
incredibly interesting for us.
But, as you sort of said before, you can't read the tea leaves
with how this is going to bestructured.
So, baking that flexibility andI just I know how difficult it
is, but I'm I'm curious, yeah,whether or not you're seeing, is
there more projects that you'restarting to take on, that are
including that sort of stuff aswell.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
I just think that people don't have a crystal ball
with regard to how they thinkthey're going to use space
moving forward.
So flexibility it was paramountwhen we designed your space.

Speaker 1 (57:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:49):
And it's just taking it to the next level, right?
So if you go into a 50-year-oldlab and there's plenty of them
around you're going to see a lotof built-in furniture and the
logic was well then, nothing canfall behind there and you can
seal it off or whatever.
But the reality is noweverything needs to be modular
and you need to be able to cleanto achieve the standards you

(58:11):
want.
And people want to think, well,okay, how much power will I need
to that room, what kind ofmechanical systems am I going to
need in that room?
And then they'll say but let'stry and keep it as clear as
possible.

Speaker 1 (58:26):
The last point.
I'd circle back to therebecause I realised that I went
on a tangent and didn't drill athome clean rooms.
Is there anyone doing, I guess,what we're looking at doing
with the accessibleinfrastructure, but with clean
rooms, because we've had so manypeople come to us.
So, planet Innovations 1, great, we'll definitely like, I'd not
like.
Do you know how much spacethere is there?

(58:47):
It's not a huge space.

Speaker 2 (58:49):
It isn't a huge space , but I think most GMPs that I
see is fit for purpose so likeso, because they're so expensive
to build.
You'll see an entity go okay, Ineed 1,000 square metres.
I'm going to go, oh, okay,that's real money.
So it would be a hell of aninvestment to build a GMP

(59:12):
facility where you didn't knowwhat you were putting through.
I could be wrong, but thatwould be my experience.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
I think that what you're saying sounds 100% true,
but then I guess this brings upon top of that well, is that if
that is something that weprobably will need to see more
of these innovative ideas cometo market, then is that
something that?
So we have a lot of super fundscome to us.
Obviously, there's the NationalReconstruction Fund we spoke
about before, and there's a lotof investment in innovation

(59:40):
infrastructure trying to improvesoftware manufacturing
capabilities.
All of this sort of stuff ishappening in Australia.
Do you see a way in whichsomeone like a CoLabs, or even
the federal government or otherplayers in this space, could end
up building a top-of-the-linespecced clean room that can be
down-specced to meet the needsof, or that could be bookable

(01:00:03):
for short amounts of time, or doyou think this is a problem
that might take a little bitmore to solve?

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
I wouldn't be surprised if CSIRO, for example,
has got something like that.
I know when we went to ANSTOthey create spaces for PC.
We were looking at some nuclearmedicine stuff there and they
create PC3 spaces for that.
So it's certainly out there.
But the investment issignificant and I think if

(01:00:32):
you're a super fund, I saw anexcellent article from an
engineering firm recently.
It talked about the demand,where the demand is in the
market for super funds and otherproperty owners and it made it
really clear that the key marketis the pc2 lab market that

(01:00:55):
makes sense as to why we'rehaving so many different super
funds.

Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
See this up.
It's been pretty crazy the pastsix months I guess it was after
the public announcement aboutthe Monash site, we just had
everyone rushing in and theamount of resources that they
are all collectively spendingand the amount of there's full
teams now dedicated to lifesciences to try and figure this
sort of stuff out.
It's been a very interesting, Iguess, development and it feels

(01:01:23):
like it really only happenedagain to your point, like
post-COVID, a lot of this stuffis really picking up because
it's like, well, we probablyshould have this onshore
capability and capacity.

Speaker 2 (01:01:31):
Yeah, we got caught with our pants down, didn't we?
At COVID?
I think that was a big thinglike go well, actually we're.
We're too dependent on the restof the world and I don't think
that'll let that.
I don't think that'll happenagain in my lifetime yeah, and I
mean even on top of that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:45):
I guess the other interesting thing with um with
it is that, um, because officespace is now uh, as we've kind
of talked about this earlier on,but live space, you get people
coming in and they want to stayfor like 5, 10, 15 years or if
not longer, if they're, you know, going to be putting a, uh, if
it's something up of like 50 to100 million dollar investment,
which some of these spaces canbe, um, to your point, about the

(01:02:08):
thousand square of clean room,yeah, you can imagine that
people would want incrediblylong leases.
Um, I just, I do, I do wonderwhat the next level would be
like.
Obviously, with what we'redoing, it's like where,
hypothetically, co-labs andamicus what do you think would
be an interesting thing to seebegin to emerge in the next five

(01:02:29):
to ten years from a spatialperspective?
Would it be, you know, thatsort of thing?
I mean, what would be yourideal innovation space?
This is real, christabel.

Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
But I guess, from where I sit, and because Amicus
is not just Amicus, labline isthe life science arm of Amicus,
but Amicus does a lot of officefit-out as well.
You know, a big part of thestrategy for a lot of companies
on the office side is well, Iused to need x square meters per

(01:02:58):
FTE per full-time equivalent.
Now I need a third of thatbecause I only got to come in
two days or three days a week.
So people are going.
So you got your super funds andeveryone else got all this
property going.
Well, everyone's renewing theirleases, but they're asking for
a third of the space.
And what are we going to do?
The other space that there's ahuge demand for is warehousing,

(01:03:20):
because, as we all know,everything gets delivered to our
homes.
Now nobody goes out to buy it.
So the warehouses though wewant them for labs.
There's a there's a largerdemand for them, so there's
warehousing.
The value of warehousing spaceis going up all the time as well
.
So I think a hybrid is aninevitability, more and more.
Looking at my daughter's aboutto finish high school and she

(01:03:46):
wants to study medical sciences.
Now I'd never even heard of adegree called medical sciences
back in the day, but it's one ofthe most in-demand courses in
Australia now.

Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
So there's no question, there's a change going
on you know, um, and I thinkyou certainly you're not, you're
not turning against that tideany anytime soon are there any
other sort of key things thatare going to emerge on the
horizon that you think are worthpeople keeping an eye on when

(01:04:18):
it comes to like lab space?

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
yeah, I mean just the whole biotech sector, um, the,
just the whole explosion of thespace.
I think it's going to put asignificant level of demand on
it.
I mean I, I look at um.
I have a sense of pride knowingyou guys for as long as I have
I got onto your website todayand seeing the broad range of um

(01:04:47):
entities and creative thinkersthat you guys are working with
at the moment.
So you'd be closer to that thanI am.
But I think I just believe thecommercialisation of sciences in
Australia is just going tocontinue to explode and we are

(01:05:10):
really we're only at the startof that.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
It does really feel like that.
It does really feel likeentering.
It does really feel like aentering, hopefully entering in
potential golden age forinnovation here in australia
again after, because I mean, youthink about how how much we
packed a punch with csiro andeverything back in the 70s and I
think it might have been the80s as well and then
systematically underfunded, um,and then sort of it's maybe

(01:05:35):
we're not translating as muchresearch as we all sort of know.

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
I mean, I'm not even that interested in the CSIRO.
Sorry, there'll be peoplelistening to this from there.
That's not what I'm talkingabout.
I mean you talk to angelinvestors today right Right.
Just private money.
If you tried to get privatemoney interested in science 10
years ago, they didn'tunderstand it.
They didn't want to getinvolved in it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:57):
It's definitely much more in the zeitgeist, like
people, people are aware, youknow whether, whether it's
unfortunately something like alongevity yeah, but people,
people know, you know thatclimate tech is going to be a
massive thing going forward intothe future.
I mean like food tech, like allof this.

Speaker 2 (01:06:12):
You just need to like people smart.
Smart money is going into it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:17):
So you're angel investors.

Speaker 2 (01:06:19):
You know there are.
You know this already.
There are fund managers raisingmoney for these ideas right now
.

Speaker 1 (01:06:28):
Yeah, there's lots of new VCs coming online for
climate tech, deep tech, biotech.
Others that are already in thespace are doubling down and
raising new funds.
It definitely feels likethere's going to be a like a big
wave of funding available, butI guess, kind of ironically, at
the same time there still is amassive funding gap currently
there is.

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):
I just don't think people have worked out how to
spend the money yet, but themoney's been raised, I think.
Well, seems to be being raised,it's the due.

Speaker 1 (01:06:56):
I think that a lot of the issues is that and I don't
want to speak on behalf ofeveryone, I don't know this for
sure but I think that we are abit more risk adverse here in
Australia and a lot of the timethere might not be the technical
skill set to be able tovalidate whether or not
someone's idea is bang on andlike over in America you have
plenty of well-off people whoare like yeah sure, have like

(01:07:17):
five million just just because,just to see what happens,
whereas here it might be like,well, I could give you 500k, but
I I want to like three phdsworth of evidence to prove that
this thing is, is going to, youknow, be the next, that's
generational right.
So there's money going into it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
There'll be more money that goes into it longer
term and I and um I'm sure if Itry to name the vc companies I'm
going to get the names wrong,so I'm not going to do it, but
we both know who I'm talkingabout there are quite a few that
are raising money.
There are super funds doing itas well, um, and I just think
that there's going to be plentyof money and I think the
government, certainly thegovernment needed to lead the

(01:07:56):
way and it has.
But and I agree that it's still, it's not without its um
hurdles still, but I just thinkthat private, private money, uh,
will become more the norm inthis space than it has been for
the last.
I don't know how many years?

Speaker 1 (01:08:15):
yeah, I'd say it does feel like within the last five
years, things have really rampedup, um, especially with, like
your blackbirds and mainsequences and possible ventures,
but, uh, and then even new onescoming online as well, like
boson, vc, um and a couple ofothers that we know as well.
Um, yeah, I do really thinkthat there's there's going to be
an explosion in this space.

(01:08:35):
I guess, from my point of view,it's always like well, how do
really think that there's goingto be an explosion in this space
?
I guess, from my point of view,it's always like well, how do
we ensure that?
Like, obviously, med tech,health tech, this is all massive
.
So it tends to be those largerthings that are already
established tend to be the onesthat yell the loudest and end up
getting the most infrastructurebuilt for them.
And I do wonder whether or notyou know we're going to keep
just doubling down on that sortof approach.

(01:09:02):
Like or not you know we're goingto keep just doubling down on
that sort of approach like, ohlook, it's a new innovation
precinct and it's two newhospitals and it's all med tech,
and we might be missing some ofthe opportunities when it comes
to climate tech or deep techsolutions, that um are actually
being created here and thengoing offshore because there
isn't anywhere to sort ofsupport them.
Like we, we realistically serveas a tiny percent of the market
about you know what space isneeded and required and I am
curious to know or I just hopethat there is still that sort of

(01:09:22):
systems approach that peopleare having to think about, which
I assume those in these sort ofinvestment portfolio places
investing in property and superfunds and all that they would
kind of have to think like that,that portfolio approach.
But yeah, I just hope thateveryone at least has chats with
each other and make sure thatwe're not doubling down and
creating stuff that is notnecessarily needed as as much as

(01:09:43):
other things.
But who knows, I guess that'sup to up to us to try and
facilitate and support on ourjourney definitely now.

Speaker 2 (01:09:52):
I imagine we're going to finish up in a sec before we
bore everybody yeah, we can, wecan finish.

Speaker 1 (01:09:57):
If you want to leave, that's fine.
No, it's just how much I wantto leave.

Speaker 2 (01:09:59):
I believe them wanting more maybe, but I did
want to talk about a few things.
I did want to put a plug in forsomething.
If you don't mind, please, byall means.
So, just anyone who's pickingup on this podcast Amicus
Labline.
Obviously, we're a firm thatfocuses on the design and

(01:10:20):
construction of life sciencefacilities, um, but we've set up
um a linkedin group calledbuilding better labs, and um
really encourage everyone tosubscribe to that group.
We're going to run a whole hostof webinars on there.
We're going to bring ondifferent experts in their field
to talk about, I guess, thekind of things you need to look

(01:10:43):
out for when you're looking tolease a space or or buy your
first space for a laboratory.
We're running a group ofwebinars over the next, probably
next six months or so, thatwe're sort of referring to as
let me say that againdemystifying lab builds.
We're going to start offtalking to a certifier or a

(01:11:07):
building surveyor and a townplanner in the first one.
Then we're going to talk tosome engineers, particularly.
We've spoken a lot today aboutmechanical engineering, but the
other key area is dangerousgoods in laboratories.

Speaker 1 (01:11:20):
Oh, that's a whole other kettle of fish we didn't
go to.

Speaker 2 (01:11:23):
And then the next one will be on architectural and
design elements of a laboratory.
We talked a lot about thattoday in terms of the kind of
space people like to work in,but also there's obviously the
Australian standards on that2982 and the like.
I'm going to get in a couple ofarchitects and designers to
talk to that Quantity surveyor,talk about the whole building

(01:11:47):
process and then probably get aPC2 certifier or an ARDA
certifier in just to talk aboutthe things you need to consider
when you're building your lab.
So there are webinars that wehope to run monthly from June
and please, you know, join thegroup.
We really won't be.
Yes, we'll be.

(01:12:07):
I guess we're facilitating theforum, but we certainly don't
want to be plugging ourselvesthrough it.
We actually want a transfer ofideas on that forum.
So it's called building betterlabs.
Um, I'm sure we can putsomething on there.

Speaker 1 (01:12:24):
we'll throw a link in ?
Yeah, for sure, I think.
No, I think it's a reallyexciting concept to see you
wanting to sort of do this,because it really speaks to.
I guess why we were so excitedto collaborate with you, not
just just because your name isLatin for friend, but because
you, as a team, you're alwayslooking in like ways in which
you can give and provideadditional support and help that

(01:12:46):
it feels much more relationalthan transactional, let's say,
and I think this is such a greatinitiative because we have so
many people come to us all thetime wanting to build spaces and
I think, being able to have aplace where we can direct them,
where there is a community ofpractice and a community of
learning and people can sharethese ideas and knowledge, I
think that is a really, reallyuseful resource.

(01:13:06):
So thank you for taking theinitiative to set it up and,
obviously, for inviting us toparticipate in it and um support
its growth and development aswell.
I think it's a really usefulresource.
Once these webinars are filmedand recorded and are going to be
shared in there as well, it'sgoing to be not just a good
resource for chatting to, butalso a good resource for, like a

(01:13:28):
knowledge base too.

Speaker 2 (01:13:29):
Yeah, that's what we hope for.
Yeah, because people just don'tbuild labs all the time.
People might do them once ortwice in their lifetime of a
firm, so we want to demystifythat.
When I get on the phone tosomebody the first time and I
give them an idea of what it'sgoing to cost them to build
their environment, I think theyfall off their chair.

(01:13:50):
And there's no.
And what I'd say to anybodywho's trying to get their head
around it?
Think about the cost ofredecorating your bedroom versus
redoing your en suite bathroomor your bathroom.
So in your bedroom, you changethe carpet, repaint the walls

(01:14:10):
and put in new lights.
In your bathroom, you'retearing out tiles.
In your bathroom, you'retearing out tiles, firstly,
disconnecting the electricals,the plumbing, the lighting,
everything gutting it, and thenyou've got to get all those
trades back in, and I think it'sthe best way to think about it.

(01:14:32):
The amount of trades andservices you need in a lab
versus in an office space isvery similar to if you think
about your bedroom versus yourbathroom I just know how much of
a deep visceral experience thatis for you personally.

Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
I know exactly where that metaphor came from.
Um, is there anything elseyou'd like to touch on before we
wrap it up?
Good to go it's been a.

Speaker 2 (01:14:52):
It's my first ever podcast, as you know no, no,
this has been good.

Speaker 1 (01:14:55):
I mean, as I said, you can you can definitely talk
the ears off anything, so it'sgood to see that that
consistency is still there.
As soon as we put a microphone,some people freak out.
They're like, how do I relateto this thing?
And I think it's yeah, ifyou're a good conversationalist,
I think anyone can kind of talkon these podcasts.
So you've done well and we'lldefinitely be back for another

(01:15:17):
round See if there's any otherquestions or thoughts we can
have a chat about, or even ifit's something just to do with
the Monash site or even if it'sjust plugging some of these
events series.
So, yeah, let us know wheneveryou feel like coming back on and
safe trip back to Sydneytomorrow.
Thanks very much, mate.
Awesome, no worries.

(01:15:39):
Thank you for listening totoday's episode with aaron budai
from amicus.
We hope you enjoyed theconversation and some of those
tips proved to be helpful oruseful for you now or in the
future.
As always, uh, yeah, be sure tocheck them out if you're
interested and drop us a line ifthere's anyone that you'd like

(01:16:01):
to hear us talk to anyconversations or events you
might like to see run for thedeep tech, biotech, climate tech
, community in melbourneanything at all?
We're all ears, uh, we love totry and make sure that what
we're doing and creating is ofuse to those in the ecosystem.

(01:16:23):
So, yeah, I'm gonna stoptalking now.
See you later.

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The Lab Manual: Navigating the Challenges of Building Lab Space with Aaron Budai from Amicus | #10

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Lab Manual: Navigating the Challenges of Building Lab Space with Aaron Budai from Amicus | #10