August 22, 2025 • 46 mins
Ever wonder why you keep finding yourself in the same toxic relationships despite your best efforts to choose better partners or friends? The answer might surprise you.
Revolutionary recovery expert TJ Woodward joins Lindsay Miller to reveal why addressing toxic relationships requires an inside-out approach rather than simply removing "toxic people" from your life. With profound compassion and clarity, TJ explains how our earliest experiences form core false beliefs that unconsciously drive our relationship choices well into adulthood.
"We must heal the toxicity within first before we start working on our relationships," TJ shares, offering a refreshing perspective that empowers rather than blames. When we recognize that we're not broken—just carrying false beliefs about our worthiness—we can begin the transformative journey of reconnecting with our essential wholeness.
Through personal stories and practical wisdom, TJ illuminates how seemingly unrelated childhood experiences become templates for adult relationships. From feeling abandoned in his crib as a toddler to desperately seeking love as an adult while simultaneously choosing unavailable partners, he demonstrates how these patterns operate below our conscious awareness.
The conversation moves beyond superficial advice about "cutting toxic people out" to explore how we can gently re-parent ourselves, heal generational trauma, and shift from victim consciousness to creator consciousness. As TJ beautifully articulates, "When we start to cultivate a relationship with our wholeness, we start to see that everywhere."
Whether you're struggling with difficult relationships, wondering why certain patterns keep repeating in your life, or simply seeking a deeper understanding of human connection, this episode offers transformative insights that will forever change how you view yourself and your relationships.
To learn more about TJ or to order his books visit his website TJWoodward.com
Lindsay Miller is a distinguished kids mindfulness coach, mindfulness educator and host of The Stress Nanny Podcast. She is known for her suitcase tricks and playful laugh. When she's not cheering on her daughter or rollerblading on local trails with her husband, you can find her using her 20+ years of child development study and mindfulness certification to dream up new ways to get kids excited about deep breathing. Having been featured on numerous podcasts, platforms and publications, Lindsay’s words of wisdom are high impact and leave a lasting impression wherever she goes.
To sign up for Lindsay's "Calm & Collected" Newsletter click here.
To review the podcast click here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Stress Nanny Podcast and I'm
your host, lindsay Miller.
I'm here to help you keep aneye on your family's stress
levels.
In our fast-paced lives, theability to manage stress has
never been more important forkids or adults.
When it comes to stress, wehave two choices we can decrease
stress or increase ourresilience to it.
Here on the number eight rankedstress podcast, I interview
(00:29):
experts and share insights tohelp you do both.
When you tune in each week,you'll bring your stress levels
down and your resilience up, sothat stress doesn't get in the
way of you living your best life.
I'm so glad you're here.
Welcome to the Stress NannyPodcast.
I'm so excited that you're herefor my conversation with TJ
Woodward today.
(00:50):
He is a revolutionary recoveryexpert, bestselling author,
inspirational speaker, educatorand addiction treatment
specialist who has helpedcountless people through his
simple yet powerful teachings.
The creator of the ConsciousRecovery Method, a
groundbreaking and effectiveapproach to viewing and treating
addiction.
Tj is also the author of threebestselling books and their
(01:11):
respective workbooks ConsciousRecovery, conscious being and
Conscious Creation.
Tj, thank you so much forjoining me.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Oh, thank you, Lindsay.
I'm excited to be here and bein this conversation with you.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
I am so excited I first learned about your work
through this lens of toxicrelationships and how to kind of
initiate a shift.
Not an external shift when itcomes to how, to, you know,
decrease the number of toxicrelationships we're experiencing
, but an internal shift.
Talk to us a little bit aboutthe difference between
(01:43):
addressing toxicity from theoutside versus from the inside.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah.
So let's start with what we'rehearing in our culture Any
social media feed you hear.
Let's remove toxicrelationships from our life.
Let's look at how we removetoxic work environments and
they're almost always not always, but almost always looking at
the external.
This person is toxic, my bossis toxic, and although that
might be true on some level,we're looking at something
(02:11):
deeper here that can actuallyprovide someone with a real
shift, Because what happens ifwe're only looking at the other
person is, you know, we mightleave the relationship and then
we might find ourselves in asimilar relationship down the
road.
So we're going to look ataccountability, not blame, and I
think that's an importantcomponent to this not blaming
ourselves, but being accountablefor the choices that we're
(02:35):
making.
And it really comes down toworthiness, and I know we're
going to dive in more to likecore false beliefs and how that
creates what we call reality.
So the short that was a longway of saying the short answer
is we must heal the toxicitywithin first before we start
working on our relationships.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yes, I love the way you phrased that and I think,
again, as we start with thisconversation, there can be a
tendency to feel a sense ofshame around it.
There can be a tendency to feela sense of like just being
really hard on ourselves for,like, this is me, I'm actually
the one initiating these, or I'mactually the one that is
keeping this pattern going.
So I just want to say and Iknow you say this too as we get
(03:14):
started be patient with yourself.
Like we're going to take theaccountability and also we're
going to do it gently, you know,but in a way that really does
make it clear like this issomething you have control over.
And I like to remind peoplethat when we are accountable,
we're super empowered, right,because that means like there's
nothing we can't change.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
That's right and that's exactly the word that I
was going to bring into theconversation.
This is really about empoweringourselves, and I know in many
people that I work with andcertainly in my own journey, I
did go from blaming others toblaming myself and that shame
that I was experiencing actuallyfelt like it was keeping me
even more stuck.
So I think it's important thatwe bring that into the
(03:55):
conversation.
We're not talking about goinginto self-criticism or blame or
shame.
We can be aware if we're doingthat, we can stop and pause, be
gentle with ourselves and reallylook at the difference between
accountability and blame,because really, what we want to
do is offer a way for people tobe more empowered to heal the
(04:16):
underlying core false beliefsand the sense of unworthiness,
that self-criticism that'sactually causing us to choose
these relationships that areunfulfilling.
So we're really talking aboutempowering someone, not blaming
someone for the situation.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Yeah, that's so well put, and one of the things I
really appreciate about yourwork is, like, with your direct
experience, you have the abilityto bring that sense of
compassion into your words, yourphrasing, but also to do it in
a way that really does enable usto access that sense of
compassion into your words, yourphrasing, but also to do it in
a way that really does enable usto access that power that we do
have to make the change.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
That's right.
We do have infinite amounts ofpower and it just depends on how
we're using that.
I remember at one point I wasin like the fifth relationship
and the person seemed to be thesame as the last four and I was
so frustrated and I said why doI keep choosing these people?
And I heard myself say it.
And then I heard a speaker sayonce if you created these kind
(05:14):
of relationships and you keepchoosing them over and over
again, you can actually changethat and realize that you're
really powerful and that youkeep creating that same
unsatisfying relationship overand over again.
And I thought, well, I honestlyI thought, how dare you say
that?
Right, but then, after sittingwith it, I thought, wow, if I
(05:36):
can create that, I can uncreateit and create something new.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
I love that.
Yes, well, and again, inaddition to that sense of shame,
I'm glad you brought out thattendency that the ego has right
to say whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa.
Not me, like that, you'retalking about somebody else,
like that's not my story.
But then when we sit with it alot of times we realize actually
it is.
I mean, I've had that in my ownlife too where I'm like what is
(06:02):
this?
Why does this pattern keepemerging over and over again in
these relationships?
And having to sit with it andbe like the only common
denominator here is yours trulyLike.
So that means you know that I'ma key part of it.
And so, again, with the senseof compassion and also with that
(06:22):
sense of accountability, likeyou're saying, we bring this
gentle awareness to theserelational patterns with the
realization that, oh my gosh, ifI'm the common denominator,
that means I can become thecommon denominator in a whole
new world of relationships.
And that's the exciting partwe're going to get to today,
right.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Absolutely, and what I love about this is this
actually does empower each of usto realize that we are really
powerful creators and we cancreate the life of our desires.
The issue with the way most ofus work with it is we try to
change it.
Only in our mind, right Like wehear things like change the
narrative, change your thinking.
And I remember thinking, well,I know that's true, but how?
(07:05):
How do I actually change that?
And so the deeper work isreally, for me, it's looking at
what those core false beliefsare that are driving that, and
not trying to talk ourselves outof it, not being brutal with
ourselves.
Oh, I shouldn't think that way.
I remember for a long time I wasinvolved with this community
that would say don't say that,cancel, cancel.
(07:27):
It was very much about you'regoing to manifest that or create
it.
The gentler approach is lookingat when did I first start
believing this?
And usually it's at a veryyoung and very tender age, and
really that's where the healingneeds to happen.
For me, five, six, seven, eightyears old, I was making these
massive decisions about myselfand the world, and as an adult,
(07:49):
I tried to talk myself out of itinstead of having compassion
and starting to care for myselfas I would for a five or six
year old.
That's a really different wayof working with it.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Yeah, it completely is, and I appreciate you sharing
that because I think sometimeswe forget that developmentally
we may be at a very differentage than we are physically, may
(08:20):
be developmentally so far fromwhere we think we are that we're
.
Yeah, like you're saying, we'retrying to use these strategies
that may work great for a 42year old like myself, right, but
actually I'm working with thefour year old Lindsay, you know,
in that way like she's going toneed a different kind of care
and she's not going to just beable to think her way out of
(08:41):
whatever those needs were thatshe, you know, understood in
that way and so caring formyself deeply and
compassionately andintentionally in the ways that
help that, you know, belief,kind of let go and release,
those are the powerful actions,right?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
A hundred percent, and you said a couple of things
that I really want to like leaninto.
One is the developmental stagesright, Our little brains aren't
even developed and we're makingthese massive decisions.
I decided I was stupid when Iwas five years old and that
literally got concretized deep,deep, deep in my subconscious
and I tried to like talk myselfout of it.
(09:19):
Look I'm not stupid, Look atall these ways I can achieve.
But I kept cycling back to it,and the way we care for the
younger self is honestly a verydifferent way than most of us
got parented.
I know we're evolving.
You know I'm older than you areand back in my day it was like
you know, if you're going to cry, I'll give you something to cry
about.
Go to your room till you canstop crying.
(09:40):
You know there wasn't a lot ofattention on allowing a child to
feel, and that really is what'srequired, right?
If someone could have beenthere for me and said what are
you feeling right now, what areyou experiencing, and allow
myself to actually feel it, Imight not have come to that big
decision that I'm stupid.
So that's really the deeperwork we get to reparent
(10:02):
ourselves in the way that manyof us, if not most of us, didn't
get when we were actuallyyounger.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yeah, yeah, and I appreciate the way that you
phrase that because I also thinkyou know, as a society, like
you said, we're evolving andlike the levels of development
that we have access to now, Ithink are pretty different than
what the majority of people hadaccess to, you know, when I was
growing up.
And so if we think of it likeMaslow's hierarchy of needs and
(10:30):
how there's like the little youknow kind of steps to what you
can pay attention to, what youhave capacity for, and I think
there's just so much more thatwe have capacity for and so many
like higher levels ofdevelopment that we are able to
access as a society at thispoint that it is a function of
looking back and saying thiswasn't a developmental level
(10:51):
that had been accessed by myparents or by the society or
culture or whatever groups I wasraised in.
That wasn't something that hadbeen accessed and so it wasn't
available to me.
But now that it is, I offer itto myself.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
That's right and you know I was as you were talking.
I was thinking about how muchblame I had for my mother and my
father for so many years andthen how much compassion I have
for them now.
It doesn't mean that the eventswere painful.
It means you know to say it's alittle cliche to say they were
doing the best they can.
But one story that came throughwhen you were talking is I
(11:26):
actually remember being in mycrib and holding on to the
little bars on the crib andscreaming and crying because my
mom wasn't there and she wasactually next door at the family
, the family next door, late atnight having cocktails with the
next door neighbors.
And this is back when phoneshad cords and there were no
answering machines.
They would call each other andput the phone down and then they
(11:50):
could hear the kids and theother right hear me crying.
But I remember literally sheerterror.
So it's not that my mom was abad mother, it was the cultural
norm.
I mean people would drink whenthey were pregnant, they would
smoke when they were pregnant.
I mean we've evolved a lot.
So it's not about blaming mymom, but it is about realizing
how terrifying that was and it'sso interesting that I have such
(12:14):
a visceral memory and I musthave been a year old, I'm
guessing, if I'm standing in mycrib.
So this got you know was a very, very deep wound, and blaming
her isn't going to help.
Reparenting and holding myselfin a very tender way is what's
actually going to start toempower myself, and that's
really what the work is for allof us.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah, yeah, that breaks my heart and also, you
know, I can relate in differentways.
Like we all have thoseexperiences that we look back on
and we think to ourselves like,okay, I this, this moment like
didn't fit my need in the waythat I wish it had, you know.
But, like you're saying, nowthat I'm an adult, I can meet
(12:55):
that need for myself in this wayand kind of work through some
of that.
So talk to us, you know,framing that story, or another
story, if you'd like, about thisidea of like what those kind of
experiences, how they translateinto these false beliefs that
we, you know, like you mentionedso beautifully earlier, get
really embedded because we'reforming our worldview.
(13:18):
Right, I mean, that's the agewhen we're taking in information
about the world, understandingour place in it, and really like
forming a view of what is safe,what is okay, what you know,
where we, where we sit, and sothose experiences well, it can
be stressful as a parent tothink, oh my gosh, everything is
so formative, like it really is.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Yeah it is, and for any parents watching or
listening right now I forgive me, you know is the number one
phrase right, because a childreally needs love and attention
and connection and they need toconnect to at least one
caregiver who is safe.
Right, and that attachment iswhat we're really looking for.
And I'm going to go out on alimb and say I don't think
(14:00):
anyone can do that perfectly100% of the time.
And that's just life, right,that's just being born on planet
Earth.
So we come in, we might getlove and attention in the way
that we need.
Maybe our parents get divorcedand one parent leaves and we
feel abandoned.
I mean, there's thesesituations that happen that
cause these attachment wounds iswhat they really are.
(14:21):
And then we develop a strategyor attachment style to manage it
.
And so, for me, that experienceof being terrified that I would
be abandoned and left aloneshowed up for me as a young
adult in particular, as pleaselove me, please love me, please
love me.
And I was doing everything Icould to get anyone to love me,
including not looking at redflags, including all these
(14:44):
different things.
But the deeper reality wassimultaneous to the please love
me, please love me.
I was also choosing people thatconfirmed the core false belief
of I'm not lovable and that's avery painful way to live.
And so we can learncommunication skills, we can
learn how to choose partners whoare more available, but the
truth is I didn't think Ideserved that Love could be
(15:06):
standing right in front of meand I would turn the other way.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah, yeah, I mean and you say it so boldly and
bravely now, and also, I'm sure,when that recollection, that,
when that realization came toyou, that it was a humbling, you
know, as it is for all of us ahumbling moment when we say, oh,
like I can see that I'm notactually fostering a belief that
(15:33):
I deserve someone who loves medeeply and authentically.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Yeah, and it can come with a great deal of freedom
and it can come with a greatdeal of pain.
Right, and they can coexist.
That's my experience in my ownjourney and so many people I
know and work with.
It's this kind of bizarrecombination of oh my gosh.
Finally, I understand that allmy behavior was stemming from
(16:00):
this, and we hear the termcoping mechanism.
I actually use the termbrilliant strategy.
Brilliant strategies could beaddiction.
It could be finding ourselvesin unfulfilling jobs.
There are a lot of strategiesto try to manage.
One example of this is ifsomeone believes they're
unworthy, their strategy mightbe to become a high achiever.
(16:22):
So everything may look great onthe outside.
This isn't a person who anyonethinks is struggling at all
because she's just a powerhouseright, but underneath it there's
never enough, because thehealing of the I'm not worthy is
what really needs to take place, because we can't just achieve
our way.
You know achieve, achieve,achieve to unlearn that we have
(16:42):
to do this deeper work.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
in my experience, you know, achieve, achieve, achieve
to unlearn that we have to dothis deeper work.
In my experience, yeah, yeah,100%, I agree.
Talk us through what that lookslike.
So someone's listening now andthey're starting to kind of
connect with maybe a falsebelief.
Or maybe, you know, they'relistening and they're like, oh,
we're talking about patterns.
I, you know, like I do see afew patterns and, like I have
said, why does this keephappening to me in this area of
(17:05):
my life?
Or why do I?
Why can't I ever seem to getout of this?
You know, loop?
What are some of the ways youinvite?
I know you have your books andyour workbooks, which are so
powerful for this right.
What are some of the ways youinvite people into that
awareness, like one step at atime?
So if they're like I have thispattern and they're trying to
(17:26):
figure it out, what's the firstthing they ask themselves?
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Well, the first thing I would invite which we already
said, but I think it meritssaying again is to be gentle and
kind with ourselves and to lookat it through the lens of
curiosity, because curiosityopens us up, curiosity expands
our awareness, whereas judgmentrestricts right, and so a lot of
us go into self-judgment.
I shouldn't be doing this, Ican't.
(17:51):
But how many times have I heardsomeone say I'm 40 years old
and I thought I was finishedwith this.
I'm 36 years old, I thought Iwas done Right, and that's just
the mind thinking there's afinish line and one day I'm
going to be healed from all this.
So that compassion as astarting point, is really
important.
One thing I want to interjectinto the conversation, which is
(18:12):
foundational to my work, is torealize that we came into the
world as whole, imperfect beings.
We look at a really small childand we see this innate
preciousness in them, and so alot of us believe we're broken
or damaged.
And so, as a starting point, tosay I like what, if, what?
If there's a place within youthat's still unharmed and
(18:35):
unharmable, what would it belike to make contact with that
more?
And then, from there, whatneeds to be addressed and
unlearned right, because it istrue that most of us, or many of
us, the change comes from thepatterning the change comes from
I'm in this relationship again,or this relationship with money
, or this relationship with sexor love or shopping, whatever it
(18:57):
is.
Now we can start to unplug fromthat and really start looking
at what's actually underneaththat, because when our buttons
get pushed, they're gettingpushed because it's time for a
deeper healing.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
So beautifully put, and I love that idea of thinking
of it as like a coming homeInstead of a finding, like
coming home to that part of youthat knows wholeness, instead of
like frantically searching forit.
You know, just instead, justlike sinking into it.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yeah, and that's you know our culture is built upon.
Once I get this, I'll be happy.
Right, I'll get the next degree, I'll be happy, I'll find the
perfect partner, I'll be happy,I'll get the perfect home and
I'll be happy.
But we're really talking aboutsomething really different, and
that is happiness is actuallyintrinsic.
It's something that alreadyexists within us.
(19:53):
A young child, a pre-programmedhuman, is naturally present.
They naturally feel theirfeelings.
Their natural state is joy, andwhen they have an upset of some
sort, they feel it, they let usknow it, and then they go back
to their natural state, which isjoy.
For many of us, though, we gettaught it's not okay to feel
(20:13):
that way, it's not okay to dothat.
Sometimes that's a directmessage, sometimes it's modeling
, but ultimately it's aboutbeing really gentle with
ourselves, allowing ourselves tofeel, because everything people
look for in therapy or recoveryor a spiritual practice
actually is being more like an18 month old or being more like
(20:34):
a 12 month old.
Right, that's innate to who andwhat we are.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Yeah, I love that, the way you put that.
I often say to parents, becauseI coach kids in mindfulness and
I say we actually just need toget out of the way.
I mean that's like the role thatwe have is to just not mess it
up for them, you know, tocontinue to let those skills
(21:00):
evolve and let that awarenesscontinue to evolve in a way that
like blossoms and helps themflourish instead of shutting it
down.
Because when we see them likedisconnected from themselves in
that way, we do see them superstressed out.
We do see them, like you know,frantically looking for
connection or worthiness inother spaces.
(21:20):
And I think, like you're saying, those patterns they start
young, and so I'm a firmbeliever that if we can kind of
shift the trajectory when kidsare little and prevent some of
these events from happeningwe're not going to catch all of
them right, but if we can shiftthat perception of self and if
we can kind of get to the rootof some of those false beliefs
(21:43):
earlier than later, then webuild our life from that space
of wholeness more than we buildit from the space of where we
feel like we're broken.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
That's right, and the observer has a profound effect.
I mean, quantum mechanics is nowshowing us that the way we view
a situation actually affectsthe outcome, you know in a
scientific experiment.
Affects the outcome, you know ina scientific experiment.
So if I'm looking at my childthrough the lens of brokenness
versus looking at them throughthe lens of wholeness and
preciousness, I mean the numberone thing I can do for my child
(22:13):
or for my friend or anyone in mylife, is to behold the power in
them that's greater than thesecore false beliefs and to see
for them that which maybe theycan't see for themselves, and
that alone is I think that'swhat you're saying right.
It's like let's not teach them.
You know, you need to figureout how to fix that, because
nothing's really inherentlybroken and, as you said, you
(22:35):
know we, of course we teach ourkids not to run out into traffic
, but life happens right, and sothere are things that we need
to teach our kids that areimportant for their own safety,
but much of what weunconsciously teach our children
is about fear, scarcity,protect yourself and all of that
.
They start to unlearn ordisconnect from that presence,
(22:57):
that preciousness that they are.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So really it is about allowing them to have their own
journey and seeing thewholeness within them.
I love that there were so manyphrases in there that I was like
just wanting to sit in for asecond and soak up.
But yes to the gift being tosee them like with their
wholeness and with theirpotential and I.
One of the things that I hearback from parents of the
families that I work with islike I'm grateful for your
(23:25):
perspective on my child, becausethat's my tendency.
Right Is to see them as thesebeautiful little humans
wandering around this world, youknow, and who are sorting
things out, and there's so muchabout them.
That's amazing and I thinkyou're right.
As you know, as parents we haveso many messages coming at us
about what we should be afraidof for our kid, or what we need
(23:47):
to worry about, or how we needto prevent or fix or whatever.
That really is such a gift tobe able to see them whole and
just to see them as developing.
So I love the way you phrased.
That was just beautiful.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Thank you.
And it's also, I think,important to add to that that we
are often unconscious of thegenerational trauma that we're
passing along to our kids andthat sounds really big and like
we're being monsters orsomething, but really it's like
I remember when my nephew wasyoung I would say things like oh
my gosh, that sounds like mymother and my grandmother.
(24:23):
That's the exact thing that Ihated as a kid.
So what did I do?
I went and apologized right,like I'm so sorry to my
three-year-old nephew, and Iwould ask him I remember one
incident I'm not going to getinto the details, but like there
was something that was verytraumatic for him and I just sat
with him and let him cry andthen asked him how he was doing
(24:44):
and we kind of talked through itand he was only four, I think,
but he had the ability toactually name how scared he was.
Right, he might have had alimited vocabulary, but there
was something about just beingpresent and allowing him to talk
it through without trying tofix it.
That was so powerful and Iremember.
You know we call them meltdowns, but the truth is they're
(25:05):
having this intense emotionalexperience that something
happening, and I remember Iwould get down on his level and
just be present with him and hewould then start to like ah,
it's not really about regulatingthe emotions, it's about
allowing them to have them andto actually process them.
(25:25):
And there was something thatwas so beautiful about that and
I was like wow, I don't actuallyhave to do anything, I can just
be something or someone forthem.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
I love that.
Thank you for sharing that.
I wholeheartedly agree and feellike the tether that you just
made was really astute in termsof thinking of it, in terms of
generational trauma and ourability to be present right,
because if I have in that moment, like I love my grandparents
(25:58):
dearly and my parents dearly,and also they were coming at
life from a certain viewpointwith the experiences that were
theirs, and so some of thethings that they learned, or
priorities that they had, thingsthat were extremely important,
they translate differently inthis moment, right, and so my
ability to filter that andacknowledge and recognize that
(26:21):
those were their responses andtheir patterns is what allows me
to show up and be present inthis moment with my child, with
what she needs.
But it is a ton of filtering.
It's like you're saying, thethings that have come to us,
most often well-meaning, butfrom a lived experience that is
(26:42):
not our own, and then havingthose be like kind of the tools
or resources we have at ourdisposal, we tend to kind of
start throwing those out realquick instead of, like you said,
giving the gift of presence,which is really the thing that
is needful.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
That's right and you know, as you were speaking, I
was thinking about mygrandparents and you know they
grew up in the depression.
Right, so they had a lot ofideas that there was never
enough, and that was passed downto my mother for sure.
And so the message that Ireceived over and over and over
again was there's not enough.
And my strategy was, for thatwas like I'll show you, there's
(27:19):
always going to be enough.
And so I was an overspender.
I was like trying to look good,I was like I'm going to get
whatever I want, you know.
So, as a young adult, I waslike, oh my gosh, like, oh,
credit cards, I mean, I starteddoing all these things and I had
so much self-criticism and thenI realized, well, like I
understand where it comes from.
It's not my mom's fault, though.
It's mine to do the healing.
(27:40):
And you know, the other thing,to be maybe a little more
vulnerable, I remember I lovedmy grandfather, of course, and
and he was overtly racist, likehe would say things that were
shocking to me, right, and sowhen I was young, I would say,
well, I reject that.
That's horrible.
He's.
That was terrible that he didthat, and of course, there's
truth to that.
But I also at some pointrealized the complexity of I
(28:03):
loved that man.
So what did I do with that?
Right, I absorbed some of it asmuch work as I did to not
absorb it.
I think I have to acknowledgethat I grew up swimming in that
consciousness, so I have had todo some of the deeper work of
what are my unconscious biasesaround race and what wants and
needs to be healed, becausepretending like I don't have it
(28:25):
is not going to help thesituation and it's certainly not
going to help me right, becausethen I would project it outward
.
How dare those people do that?
But it's like wait a minute.
I absorbed that from a person Iloved and there are layers of
complexity with that.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah, yeah, thank you for sharing that example.
I think you touched on somethingalso that I would love to dive
into in terms of awareness.
I mean, like your, your booksaround, you know, being
conscious of these things, right, like bringing these things
into our consciousness so thatwe're not at the mercy of them
anymore, but we can use thatawareness to kind of move
(29:02):
forward in a way that feels moreresonant and intentional.
I've often heard people say,when they start, you know,
becoming aware of their kind ofwhat's swimming in their
subconscious, sometimes theyfeel a little bit like they're
drowning in it, like it startsto feel kind of big and it
starts to feel like the depth isway more than maybe they
(29:22):
anticipated.
You know, and I think in my ownexperience, the more I develop
awareness, the more I'm, youknow, aware of, and it's not
always something that's easy tosit with and it's not always
something that's reallycomfortable.
So what do you?
What do you tell people?
You know, maybe there'ssomebody listening who's you
kind of in this process, andthey've been trying to become
(29:42):
more aware and they're also likeoh my gosh, it's a lot, yes.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Well, that's why I start with the foundation of
we're whole and perfect.
There's a place within us thatis still whole and perfect.
Making contact with that anddeveloping or cultivating a
relationship with what I callthe essential self Some might
call God essence, some mightcall their spiritual self
there's all these differentrooms, buddhists would call it
our Buddha nature.
That, as a starting point, Ithink, allows us to swim in the
(30:13):
deep end with much more ease.
Right, because if I believe Iam my subconscious ideas, if I
believe I am my unconsciousbiases, that can become really
unsettling and people we can getthrown off.
But when I say I didn't come inwith that, right, I didn't come
in with any kind of hatred forother people.
(30:33):
I was taught that I didn't comein believing that I was not good
enough or unworthy.
I was taught that.
So having a relationship withthe part of us that's still
unharmed by all of that is thestarting point.
So, simply said, it's atwo-step process One,
cultivating a relationship withthe essential self, and two,
(30:53):
questioning and quite possiblyunlearning just about everything
we've ever been taught or havecome to believe about ourself in
the world.
That's all just unlearneverything.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
No, I mean you make a good point though, because I
think and thank you for touchingback to that that key teaching
around being whole and likeapproaching and seeing ourselves
from through the lens ofwholeness to start, because that
can diffuse some of the maybeburden of the awareness that we
might end up feeling.
Talk to me about what kind ofshifts you see happening when
(31:27):
people access this greaterunderstanding of and experience
of their own wholeness.
I know you talk about kind ofrelationships shifting before
your eyes, and I think sometimeswe can think to ourselves like
no way that, like a simplechange in the way I view myself
and, like you know, radicallychanging my belief and then
(31:48):
acting from that place is goingto resolve XYZ relationship
problem that I've had for 20years.
Or you know that my tendencythat I've had my whole life and
hopefully, in listening to youtoday, you know we're
recognizing.
Well, you've had it your wholelife because the belief
developed early in your life andso you carried it right, we
carried it.
You know we all, we all havethose, those beliefs embedded in
(32:11):
different ways, but what do yousee as like the signs that that
it's shifting?
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Well, I think, first and foremost, when I'm out of
touch with my true essence, Ilook to the world to provide
that, and so no relationshipbased in that is ever going to
be satisfying ultimately,because if I think I'm broken
but I'm going to find Mr or Mswonderful to heal that, there's
no person that can do that forme, right, and not to mention
(32:37):
that then the unconsciousbeliefs and ideas keep
replicating themselves.
So the number one shift thathappens is when I start to feel
whole again and when I start tocultivate a relationship with my
wholeness.
I start to see that everywhere.
In my third book, consciousCreation, I use the metaphor of
a movie and I have an acronym.
(32:58):
M-O-V-I-E because we're holdinga projector.
And, yeah, and the wonderfulByron Katie, I like to give a
credit where credit's due.
She says if we have a piece ofLent on the lens that we're
looking at life through, we willsee it everywhere and we will
think it's happening in theworld.
We think we need to change therelationships or change the
person or change the situation,but we really just need to clear
(33:20):
the lens and then we start tosee the world in a very
different way.
Another way to say it reallysimply is when I started doing
this shift, I find myself notbeing a victim anymore, and that
word sounds a little harsh.
So let me say what I mean bythat.
If I hear myself saying thingslike why does this keep
happening to me?
I can look in a very gentle andloving way and say, oh, I am in
(33:42):
a victim perspective and I'mnot saying that people aren't
victims to situations in theworld, especially when we're
young.
But we often take on theidentity of a victim and the
empowering place is to say I'mno longer going to give that
person from when I was seven thepower anymore.
I'm taking that back.
And so when we start to shiftthe lens, when we start to clear
(34:03):
these core false beliefs, itdoes seem like the relationships
heal themselves magically.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
And it can take a lifetime, but it can also happen
in an instant of awareness fromwithin, you know, and I think
there are a lot of of ways wecan still look for like
validation externally.
(34:29):
Or you know and I love the, thedescription that you're sharing
, which is more of just like awellspring.
It seems like like it's therewhen you need it and so noticing
, like if that's present for you.
Notice, you know, if I'mfeeling that sense of like my
own essence and my essentialbeing as I'm interacting with
(34:50):
the world, or a thought or anidea or realization like that
being the true North, instead oflike scrambling, like whose
voice should I listen to aboutthis now?
Or who?
You know, who?
What expert do I need to helpme filter this Like no, no, no,
no.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Yeah, and we start to see it everywhere, right?
So if I am holding a sense ofbrokenness, I will unconsciously
look for brokenness in theworld.
And we see that all over socialmedia and in the news.
And if I'm looking and healingand I'm looking at myself as a
whole and perfect being, I'mstarting to see that everywhere
in the world, even in surprisingplaces.
(35:31):
I mean, you know, I'll give youa practical example.
When I was in my early 20s, Ijust thought my mom should be
more loving.
Why wasn't my mom morenurturing?
I did not have a nurturing mom.
That's kind of true.
I don't say that with anyjudgment anymore, it's just kind
of true about her.
But the narrative that I kepthaving was she never asked me
about anything in my life.
(35:51):
And I woke up one day andthought I never asked her about
hers either.
I'm wanting her to beinterested in my life, but I'm
not expressing any interest.
And I thought, oh, I'm going tohave to be interested in QVC
and shopping and the things thatreally she loves.
And then I thought, okay, I'mgoing to go on this experiment
and I'm going to ask her abouther new earrings I'm going to
(36:13):
ask her about.
And I started asking her abouther life and our relationship
healed so quickly.
And what I'm not saying cause,you know, we we hear the term
like codependency.
I'm not saying, you know,abandon my own needs and only
focus on the other person.
But I was in a dynamic with herwhere I was wanting, or I
thought needing, her toacknowledge me, and so the
(36:34):
experiment was let meacknowledge her and, lo and
behold, she started becomingmore curious about my life and
there was a period in my early20s where we talked every single
day on the phone.
We were genuinely interested ineach other and there was so
much healing that like healed 20years of what I considered to
be trauma in that relationshipsimply with that experiment.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
That's really powerful.
Again, how do you describe it?
The that awareness kind of likebubbling up.
Like when you create the spacefor it, you open yourself up to
you know, moving and acting inthe world in a different way,
you come to that place of likeyour essential self and the
wholeness that that is you, youknow in some part.
(37:18):
And then the awareness justkind of I mean, I've called it
like flow, I've called it, yeah,bubbling up.
How do you describe it?
Because it it is sometimes likea whoa moment, but other times
it's like a huh moment.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Right, and it can be both in about five minutes.
Whoa, right?
I mean, it's a process, right,or at least it seems to be a
process.
But, as I said, there can be aninstantaneous awareness of a
deeper sense of reality too.
I mean, I've had theseexperiences, some of them
profound.
I think William James wroteabout the varieties of religion.
(37:55):
He called it a religiousexperience, but really a
spiritual experience, and hetalks about the educational
variety.
Sometimes it happens slowlyover time, but sometimes it
happens instantly.
I've had these moments where Iwas aware that, wow, love is all
there actually is.
The rest is just this egotrying to have, you know, have
(38:15):
separation and us and them, andgood and bad, and awarenesses
can be a profound shift and youknow, I of course want to always
be in that.
I had a client ask me once doyou really walk around always
feeling love and only love andseeing everyone as a perfect
being?
And I said, yeah, actually I do, but sometimes I forget,
(38:36):
sometimes I forget that that'sreality.
So I have to remind myself ohyeah, it's not true, these ideas
I have about separation andfear.
Obviously, sometimes thosethings are real and feel very
real, but what I'm really sayingis the only way I can really
shift it is from the inside out,not the outside in.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Yeah, yeah, I love the way you said that and I
think being able to againbelieve that that's possible is
sometimes a leap for people,right?
I mean, in my experience, beingable to believe that there is a
way to view the world.
You know, with everything thatwe're navigating, being able to
(39:16):
see the world through that lenssometimes feels daunting, but,
like you said, it's a little bitat a time and it's a growth
process through whatever levelsof awareness we need to move
through in order to get thereand trusting that, with the
continued desire and openness toit, that that can be right,
(39:37):
like the reality, the way thatyou view yourself and other
people.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Yeah, that can become the predominant way we see the
world, right, and I think youknow, we hear that we're in a
very polarized time.
I actually think we've justbeen conditioned to have
polarized thinking.
I mean, we're trained from avery early age that there is
good and bad and right and wrong.
And you know people can debatethat.
Of course there's some thingsthat are good and bad, and I
remember saying this chair issolid.
(40:04):
Is that true?
Yeah, it is true, but we knowit's actually not the whole
truth, right, and it was anabsolute fact that the world is
flat, right Now, they hadlimited information and so now
we believe it's round andbelieve me, I'm not a flat
earther, just for the record.
But I think with more awarenesswe'll realize oh, it wasn't the
whole story, right, and wethink we know everything now.
(40:25):
But the truth is we only knowwhat we have the ability to see.
So with expanded awareness wecan see more, a greater
possibility.
And so, again, curiosityexpands, judgment constricts.
I like to ask open-endedquestions like what am I making
this mean?
What is available for me thatI'm not seeing?
What is a different possibilityhere?
(40:48):
How does it get even betterthan this?
Right?
So you know, it's really not asmuch about what happens, but
more about how we frame whathappens.
That creates our experience ofit.
It doesn't mean we pretendthings aren't happening in the
world.
We're not burying our head inthe sand, because that's what
people will sometimes say when Italk about this.
What I'm saying is, if we callsomething horrible, we will
(41:11):
experience it as horrible.
When we think, wow, there'ssomething that's wanting to heal
here globally, how can Iparticipate in that?
We have a very differentexperience of it.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Yes, all day long to that.
Yes, yes, yes.
This morning I had a call withone of my little clients who was
experiencing some stomach achespretty consistently, and we
were talking about pain and wewere talking about through this
lens of like what we call it.
And so, if we call it, mystomach hurts and like not to
(41:46):
negate the pain, you're feelingright, but like, yep, you're
feeling pain, but if we call ita stomach ache, and then the
tendency is to like, see more ofit.
And she even said in her sweetlittle way she was like, but I
know my brain looks for thething I tell it to, so it will
just be more pain if I say that.
And I was like, oh my gosh, tobe eight years old and know,
(42:07):
that, but what?
what we were talking about wascalling it awareness and like
creating a more neutral way todescribe the experience that
would then like lend itself to adifferent interpretation,
different action and differentjudgment around it.
You know, and so I think, likefrom the micro like that to the
macro that you described interms of the world like, this is
(42:29):
a world inviting healing.
This is a, you know, a globalmovement toward greater
compassion.
This is, you know, however wephrase it like, we will see the
pieces of it that are that, andso being able to do make those
changes, like in our own life,and then see the ripple effect
as we then view the world in adifferent way, it's such an
(42:51):
incredibly powerful thing, yeah,and if we look at, like the
stomach, the pain in the worldin a different way.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
It's such an incredibly powerful thing, yeah.
And if we look at like thestomach, the pain in the stomach
is a perfect example, becausethere's something there that's
wanting attention.
Right, it might not be anythingnegative at all.
It might be an issue that needsto be looked at, right?
I mean, if we put our finger ina hot stove, it hurts for a
reason.
Ouch, we don't want to burn ourfinger off, right?
If I can look at emotions thatway, if I can look at a headache
that way, not, oh my gosh, it'sterrible.
(43:16):
I keep having these headaches.
Oh, the pain.
And then, if we look at maybe alittle bit more globally or
maybe existentially, you know,the news is not news, right?
My friend Michael Beckwith saysthe news isn't news, it's olds.
It's the same old story, thesame old story of fear, of
separation, and what I'm notsaying is that those things
(43:38):
aren't happening in the world,but it's a tiny, tiny, tiny time
.
I mean, it's a fraction of afraction of a fraction of a
fraction of percentage of thesehorrible things that we put on
the news and say this isnewsworthy.
I mean, there's so much love inthe world, there's so much
happiness, there's so muchconnection.
I mean, there's so much love inthe world, there's so much
happiness, there's so muchconnection.
And someone listening might say,oh, so you're just going to
pretend like these things aren'thappening?
No, but it's not the wholestory, right?
(44:00):
I mean I could go on a bigtangent, but all I'm going to
say is this what we focus ongrows.
So we have the opportunity tochoose for ourselves where we
put our attention.
We don't have to pretend likesomething's not happening.
You know, we look at activism.
Much of activism is fightingagainst.
Mother Teresa said I will notbe in an anti-war protest, but I
(44:24):
will be in a pro-peacedemonstration.
I will stand for peace, but I'mnot going to stand against war.
That sounds maybe nice forsomeone to hear.
But to really lean into thatand say what am I standing for
and what am I positioning myselfagainst, that's profound.
Actually, it's a profoundpractice.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Yeah, it really is.
I have loved everything aboutthis conversation.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
This has been such a delight.
Tell our listeners where theycan find me.
If you got a lot out of thisyou know four to five minute
conversation.
Just imagine if you got TJ'sbooks and workbook where you'd
be at.
So let them know where they canfind you.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
Yeah, tj Woodwardcom, that's where you'll find books,
courses, all my social links.
I'm so grateful and I alwayslike to close any, any talk or
any conversation I have with.
If no one's told you yet today,you are a whole and perfect
spiritual being.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Thank you so much, TJ .
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Thank you, Lindsay.
I've been so honored to be here.
I loved our conversation.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
I did as well.
You've just finished an episodeof the Stress Nanny Podcast, so
hopefully you feel a littlemore empowered when it comes to
dealing with stress.
Feel free to take a deep breathand let it out slowly as you go
back to your day.
I'm so glad you're here Ifyou're a longtime listener.
Thank you so much for yoursupport.
It really means the world to me.
(45:48):
If you're new, I'd love to haveyou follow the podcast and join
me each week, and no matter howlong you've been listening.
Please share this episode withsomeone who is stressed out.
If you enjoyed the show, wouldyou please do me a favor and go
to ratethispodcastcom, slashthestressnanny and leave a
review.
The link is in the show notes.
I'm so grateful for all mylisteners.
(46:09):
Thank you again for being here.
Until next time.
You're listening to the Stress Nanny Podcast and I'm
your host, lindsay Miller.
I'm here to help you keep aneye on your family's stress
levels.
In our fast-paced lives, theability to manage stress has
never been more important forkids or adults.
When it comes to stress, wehave two choices we can decrease
stress or increase ourresilience to it.
Here on the number eight rankedstress podcast, I interview
(00:29):
experts and share insights tohelp you do both.
When you tune in each week,you'll bring your stress levels
down and your resilience up, sothat stress doesn't get in the
way of you living your best life.
I'm so glad you're here.
Welcome to the Stress NannyPodcast.
I'm so excited that you're herefor my conversation with TJ
Woodward today.
(00:50):
He is a revolutionary recoveryexpert, bestselling author,
inspirational speaker, educatorand addiction treatment
specialist who has helpedcountless people through his
simple yet powerful teachings.
The creator of the ConsciousRecovery Method, a
groundbreaking and effectiveapproach to viewing and treating
addiction.
Tj is also the author of threebestselling books and their
(01:11):
respective workbooks ConsciousRecovery, conscious being and
Conscious Creation.
Tj, thank you so much forjoining me.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Oh, thank you, Lindsay.
I'm excited to be here and bein this conversation with you.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
I am so excited I first learned about your work
through this lens of toxicrelationships and how to kind of
initiate a shift.
Not an external shift when itcomes to how, to, you know,
decrease the number of toxicrelationships we're experiencing
, but an internal shift.
Talk to us a little bit aboutthe difference between
(01:43):
addressing toxicity from theoutside versus from the inside.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah.
So let's start with what we'rehearing in our culture Any
social media feed you hear.
Let's remove toxicrelationships from our life.
Let's look at how we removetoxic work environments and
they're almost always not always, but almost always looking at
the external.
This person is toxic, my bossis toxic, and although that
might be true on some level,we're looking at something
(02:11):
deeper here that can actuallyprovide someone with a real
shift, Because what happens ifwe're only looking at the other
person is, you know, we mightleave the relationship and then
we might find ourselves in asimilar relationship down the
road.
So we're going to look ataccountability, not blame, and I
think that's an importantcomponent to this not blaming
ourselves, but being accountablefor the choices that we're
(02:35):
making.
And it really comes down toworthiness, and I know we're
going to dive in more to likecore false beliefs and how that
creates what we call reality.
So the short that was a longway of saying the short answer
is we must heal the toxicitywithin first before we start
working on our relationships.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yes, I love the way you phrased that and I think,
again, as we start with thisconversation, there can be a
tendency to feel a sense ofshame around it.
There can be a tendency to feela sense of like just being
really hard on ourselves for,like, this is me, I'm actually
the one initiating these, or I'mactually the one that is
keeping this pattern going.
So I just want to say and Iknow you say this too as we get
(03:14):
started be patient with yourself.
Like we're going to take theaccountability and also we're
going to do it gently, you know,but in a way that really does
make it clear like this issomething you have control over.
And I like to remind peoplethat when we are accountable,
we're super empowered, right,because that means like there's
nothing we can't change.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
That's right and that's exactly the word that I
was going to bring into theconversation.
This is really about empoweringourselves, and I know in many
people that I work with andcertainly in my own journey, I
did go from blaming others toblaming myself and that shame
that I was experiencing actuallyfelt like it was keeping me
even more stuck.
So I think it's important thatwe bring that into the
(03:55):
conversation.
We're not talking about goinginto self-criticism or blame or
shame.
We can be aware if we're doingthat, we can stop and pause, be
gentle with ourselves and reallylook at the difference between
accountability and blame,because really, what we want to
do is offer a way for people tobe more empowered to heal the
(04:16):
underlying core false beliefsand the sense of unworthiness,
that self-criticism that'sactually causing us to choose
these relationships that areunfulfilling.
So we're really talking aboutempowering someone, not blaming
someone for the situation.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Yeah, that's so well put, and one of the things I
really appreciate about yourwork is, like, with your direct
experience, you have the abilityto bring that sense of
compassion into your words, yourphrasing, but also to do it in
a way that really does enable usto access that sense of
compassion into your words, yourphrasing, but also to do it in
a way that really does enable usto access that power that we do
have to make the change.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
That's right.
We do have infinite amounts ofpower and it just depends on how
we're using that.
I remember at one point I wasin like the fifth relationship
and the person seemed to be thesame as the last four and I was
so frustrated and I said why doI keep choosing these people?
And I heard myself say it.
And then I heard a speaker sayonce if you created these kind
(05:14):
of relationships and you keepchoosing them over and over
again, you can actually changethat and realize that you're
really powerful and that youkeep creating that same
unsatisfying relationship overand over again.
And I thought, well, I honestlyI thought, how dare you say
that?
Right, but then, after sittingwith it, I thought, wow, if I
(05:36):
can create that, I can uncreateit and create something new.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
I love that.
Yes, well, and again, inaddition to that sense of shame,
I'm glad you brought out thattendency that the ego has right
to say whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa.
Not me, like that, you'retalking about somebody else,
like that's not my story.
But then when we sit with it alot of times we realize actually
it is.
I mean, I've had that in my ownlife too where I'm like what is
(06:02):
this?
Why does this pattern keepemerging over and over again in
these relationships?
And having to sit with it andbe like the only common
denominator here is yours trulyLike.
So that means you know that I'ma key part of it.
And so, again, with the senseof compassion and also with that
(06:22):
sense of accountability, likeyou're saying, we bring this
gentle awareness to theserelational patterns with the
realization that, oh my gosh, ifI'm the common denominator,
that means I can become thecommon denominator in a whole
new world of relationships.
And that's the exciting partwe're going to get to today,
right.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Absolutely, and what I love about this is this
actually does empower each of usto realize that we are really
powerful creators and we cancreate the life of our desires.
The issue with the way most ofus work with it is we try to
change it.
Only in our mind, right Like wehear things like change the
narrative, change your thinking.
And I remember thinking, well,I know that's true, but how?
(07:05):
How do I actually change that?
And so the deeper work isreally, for me, it's looking at
what those core false beliefsare that are driving that, and
not trying to talk ourselves outof it, not being brutal with
ourselves.
Oh, I shouldn't think that way.
I remember for a long time I wasinvolved with this community
that would say don't say that,cancel, cancel.
(07:27):
It was very much about you'regoing to manifest that or create
it.
The gentler approach is lookingat when did I first start
believing this?
And usually it's at a veryyoung and very tender age, and
really that's where the healingneeds to happen.
For me, five, six, seven, eightyears old, I was making these
massive decisions about myselfand the world, and as an adult,
(07:49):
I tried to talk myself out of itinstead of having compassion
and starting to care for myselfas I would for a five or six
year old.
That's a really different wayof working with it.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Yeah, it completely is, and I appreciate you sharing
that because I think sometimeswe forget that developmentally
we may be at a very differentage than we are physically, may
(08:20):
be developmentally so far fromwhere we think we are that we're
.
Yeah, like you're saying, we'retrying to use these strategies
that may work great for a 42year old like myself, right, but
actually I'm working with thefour year old Lindsay, you know,
in that way like she's going toneed a different kind of care
and she's not going to just beable to think her way out of
(08:41):
whatever those needs were thatshe, you know, understood in
that way and so caring formyself deeply and
compassionately andintentionally in the ways that
help that, you know, belief,kind of let go and release,
those are the powerful actions,right?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
A hundred percent, and you said a couple of things
that I really want to like leaninto.
One is the developmental stagesright, Our little brains aren't
even developed and we're makingthese massive decisions.
I decided I was stupid when Iwas five years old and that
literally got concretized deep,deep, deep in my subconscious
and I tried to like talk myselfout of it.
(09:19):
Look I'm not stupid, Look atall these ways I can achieve.
But I kept cycling back to it,and the way we care for the
younger self is honestly a verydifferent way than most of us
got parented.
I know we're evolving.
You know I'm older than you areand back in my day it was like
you know, if you're going to cry, I'll give you something to cry
about.
Go to your room till you canstop crying.
(09:40):
You know there wasn't a lot ofattention on allowing a child to
feel, and that really is what'srequired, right?
If someone could have beenthere for me and said what are
you feeling right now, what areyou experiencing, and allow
myself to actually feel it, Imight not have come to that big
decision that I'm stupid.
So that's really the deeperwork we get to reparent
(10:02):
ourselves in the way that manyof us, if not most of us, didn't
get when we were actuallyyounger.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yeah, yeah, and I appreciate the way that you
phrase that because I also thinkyou know, as a society, like
you said, we're evolving andlike the levels of development
that we have access to now, Ithink are pretty different than
what the majority of people hadaccess to, you know, when I was
growing up.
And so if we think of it likeMaslow's hierarchy of needs and
(10:30):
how there's like the little youknow kind of steps to what you
can pay attention to, what youhave capacity for, and I think
there's just so much more thatwe have capacity for and so many
like higher levels ofdevelopment that we are able to
access as a society at thispoint that it is a function of
looking back and saying thiswasn't a developmental level
(10:51):
that had been accessed by myparents or by the society or
culture or whatever groups I wasraised in.
That wasn't something that hadbeen accessed and so it wasn't
available to me.
But now that it is, I offer itto myself.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
That's right and you know I was as you were talking.
I was thinking about how muchblame I had for my mother and my
father for so many years andthen how much compassion I have
for them now.
It doesn't mean that the eventswere painful.
It means you know to say it's alittle cliche to say they were
doing the best they can.
But one story that came throughwhen you were talking is I
(11:26):
actually remember being in mycrib and holding on to the
little bars on the crib andscreaming and crying because my
mom wasn't there and she wasactually next door at the family
, the family next door, late atnight having cocktails with the
next door neighbors.
And this is back when phoneshad cords and there were no
answering machines.
They would call each other andput the phone down and then they
(11:50):
could hear the kids and theother right hear me crying.
But I remember literally sheerterror.
So it's not that my mom was abad mother, it was the cultural
norm.
I mean people would drink whenthey were pregnant, they would
smoke when they were pregnant.
I mean we've evolved a lot.
So it's not about blaming mymom, but it is about realizing
how terrifying that was and it'sso interesting that I have such
(12:14):
a visceral memory and I musthave been a year old, I'm
guessing, if I'm standing in mycrib.
So this got you know was a very, very deep wound, and blaming
her isn't going to help.
Reparenting and holding myselfin a very tender way is what's
actually going to start toempower myself, and that's
really what the work is for allof us.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah, yeah, that breaks my heart and also, you
know, I can relate in differentways.
Like we all have thoseexperiences that we look back on
and we think to ourselves like,okay, I this, this moment like
didn't fit my need in the waythat I wish it had, you know.
But, like you're saying, nowthat I'm an adult, I can meet
(12:55):
that need for myself in this wayand kind of work through some
of that.
So talk to us, you know,framing that story, or another
story, if you'd like, about thisidea of like what those kind of
experiences, how they translateinto these false beliefs that
we, you know, like you mentionedso beautifully earlier, get
really embedded because we'reforming our worldview.
(13:18):
Right, I mean, that's the agewhen we're taking in information
about the world, understandingour place in it, and really like
forming a view of what is safe,what is okay, what you know,
where we, where we sit, and sothose experiences well, it can
be stressful as a parent tothink, oh my gosh, everything is
so formative, like it really is.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Yeah it is, and for any parents watching or
listening right now I forgive me, you know is the number one
phrase right, because a childreally needs love and attention
and connection and they need toconnect to at least one
caregiver who is safe.
Right, and that attachment iswhat we're really looking for.
And I'm going to go out on alimb and say I don't think
(14:00):
anyone can do that perfectly100% of the time.
And that's just life, right,that's just being born on planet
Earth.
So we come in, we might getlove and attention in the way
that we need.
Maybe our parents get divorcedand one parent leaves and we
feel abandoned.
I mean, there's thesesituations that happen that
cause these attachment wounds iswhat they really are.
(14:21):
And then we develop a strategyor attachment style to manage it
.
And so, for me, that experienceof being terrified that I would
be abandoned and left aloneshowed up for me as a young
adult in particular, as pleaselove me, please love me, please
love me.
And I was doing everything Icould to get anyone to love me,
including not looking at redflags, including all these
(14:44):
different things.
But the deeper reality wassimultaneous to the please love
me, please love me.
I was also choosing people thatconfirmed the core false belief
of I'm not lovable and that's avery painful way to live.
And so we can learncommunication skills, we can
learn how to choose partners whoare more available, but the
truth is I didn't think Ideserved that Love could be
(15:06):
standing right in front of meand I would turn the other way.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah, yeah, I mean and you say it so boldly and
bravely now, and also, I'm sure,when that recollection, that,
when that realization came toyou, that it was a humbling, you
know, as it is for all of us ahumbling moment when we say, oh,
like I can see that I'm notactually fostering a belief that
(15:33):
I deserve someone who loves medeeply and authentically.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Yeah, and it can come with a great deal of freedom
and it can come with a greatdeal of pain.
Right, and they can coexist.
That's my experience in my ownjourney and so many people I
know and work with.
It's this kind of bizarrecombination of oh my gosh.
Finally, I understand that allmy behavior was stemming from
(16:00):
this, and we hear the termcoping mechanism.
I actually use the termbrilliant strategy.
Brilliant strategies could beaddiction.
It could be finding ourselvesin unfulfilling jobs.
There are a lot of strategiesto try to manage.
One example of this is ifsomeone believes they're
unworthy, their strategy mightbe to become a high achiever.
(16:22):
So everything may look great onthe outside.
This isn't a person who anyonethinks is struggling at all
because she's just a powerhouseright, but underneath it there's
never enough, because thehealing of the I'm not worthy is
what really needs to take place, because we can't just achieve
our way.
You know achieve, achieve,achieve to unlearn that we have
(16:42):
to do this deeper work.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
in my experience, you know, achieve, achieve, achieve
to unlearn that we have to dothis deeper work.
In my experience, yeah, yeah,100%, I agree.
Talk us through what that lookslike.
So someone's listening now andthey're starting to kind of
connect with maybe a falsebelief.
Or maybe, you know, they'relistening and they're like, oh,
we're talking about patterns.
I, you know, like I do see afew patterns and, like I have
said, why does this keephappening to me in this area of
(17:05):
my life?
Or why do I?
Why can't I ever seem to getout of this?
You know, loop?
What are some of the ways youinvite?
I know you have your books andyour workbooks, which are so
powerful for this right.
What are some of the ways youinvite people into that
awareness, like one step at atime?
So if they're like I have thispattern and they're trying to
(17:26):
figure it out, what's the firstthing they ask themselves?
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Well, the first thing I would invite which we already
said, but I think it meritssaying again is to be gentle and
kind with ourselves and to lookat it through the lens of
curiosity, because curiosityopens us up, curiosity expands
our awareness, whereas judgmentrestricts right, and so a lot of
us go into self-judgment.
I shouldn't be doing this, Ican't.
(17:51):
But how many times have I heardsomeone say I'm 40 years old
and I thought I was finishedwith this.
I'm 36 years old, I thought Iwas done Right, and that's just
the mind thinking there's afinish line and one day I'm
going to be healed from all this.
So that compassion as astarting point, is really
important.
One thing I want to interjectinto the conversation, which is
(18:12):
foundational to my work, is torealize that we came into the
world as whole, imperfect beings.
We look at a really small childand we see this innate
preciousness in them, and so alot of us believe we're broken
or damaged.
And so, as a starting point, tosay I like what, if, what?
If there's a place within youthat's still unharmed and
(18:35):
unharmable, what would it belike to make contact with that
more?
And then, from there, whatneeds to be addressed and
unlearned right, because it istrue that most of us, or many of
us, the change comes from thepatterning the change comes from
I'm in this relationship again,or this relationship with money
, or this relationship with sexor love or shopping, whatever it
(18:57):
is.
Now we can start to unplug fromthat and really start looking
at what's actually underneaththat, because when our buttons
get pushed, they're gettingpushed because it's time for a
deeper healing.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
So beautifully put, and I love that idea of thinking
of it as like a coming homeInstead of a finding, like
coming home to that part of youthat knows wholeness, instead of
like frantically searching forit.
You know, just instead, justlike sinking into it.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yeah, and that's you know our culture is built upon.
Once I get this, I'll be happy.
Right, I'll get the next degree, I'll be happy, I'll find the
perfect partner, I'll be happy,I'll get the perfect home and
I'll be happy.
But we're really talking aboutsomething really different, and
that is happiness is actuallyintrinsic.
It's something that alreadyexists within us.
(19:53):
A young child, a pre-programmedhuman, is naturally present.
They naturally feel theirfeelings.
Their natural state is joy, andwhen they have an upset of some
sort, they feel it, they let usknow it, and then they go back
to their natural state, which isjoy.
For many of us, though, we gettaught it's not okay to feel
(20:13):
that way, it's not okay to dothat.
Sometimes that's a directmessage, sometimes it's modeling
, but ultimately it's aboutbeing really gentle with
ourselves, allowing ourselves tofeel, because everything people
look for in therapy or recoveryor a spiritual practice
actually is being more like an18 month old or being more like
(20:34):
a 12 month old.
Right, that's innate to who andwhat we are.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Yeah, I love that, the way you put that.
I often say to parents, becauseI coach kids in mindfulness and
I say we actually just need toget out of the way.
I mean that's like the role thatwe have is to just not mess it
up for them, you know, tocontinue to let those skills
(21:00):
evolve and let that awarenesscontinue to evolve in a way that
like blossoms and helps themflourish instead of shutting it
down.
Because when we see them likedisconnected from themselves in
that way, we do see them superstressed out.
We do see them, like you know,frantically looking for
connection or worthiness inother spaces.
(21:20):
And I think, like you're saying, those patterns they start
young, and so I'm a firmbeliever that if we can kind of
shift the trajectory when kidsare little and prevent some of
these events from happeningwe're not going to catch all of
them right, but if we can shiftthat perception of self and if
we can kind of get to the rootof some of those false beliefs
(21:43):
earlier than later, then webuild our life from that space
of wholeness more than we buildit from the space of where we
feel like we're broken.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
That's right, and the observer has a profound effect.
I mean, quantum mechanics is nowshowing us that the way we view
a situation actually affectsthe outcome, you know in a
scientific experiment.
Affects the outcome, you know ina scientific experiment.
So if I'm looking at my childthrough the lens of brokenness
versus looking at them throughthe lens of wholeness and
preciousness, I mean the numberone thing I can do for my child
(22:13):
or for my friend or anyone in mylife, is to behold the power in
them that's greater than thesecore false beliefs and to see
for them that which maybe theycan't see for themselves, and
that alone is I think that'swhat you're saying right.
It's like let's not teach them.
You know, you need to figureout how to fix that, because
nothing's really inherentlybroken and, as you said, you
(22:35):
know we, of course we teach ourkids not to run out into traffic
, but life happens right, and sothere are things that we need
to teach our kids that areimportant for their own safety,
but much of what weunconsciously teach our children
is about fear, scarcity,protect yourself and all of that
.
They start to unlearn ordisconnect from that presence,
(22:57):
that preciousness that they are.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So really it is about allowing them to have their own
journey and seeing thewholeness within them.
I love that there were so manyphrases in there that I was like
just wanting to sit in for asecond and soak up.
But yes to the gift being tosee them like with their
wholeness and with theirpotential and I.
One of the things that I hearback from parents of the
families that I work with islike I'm grateful for your
(23:25):
perspective on my child, becausethat's my tendency.
Right Is to see them as thesebeautiful little humans
wandering around this world, youknow, and who are sorting
things out, and there's so muchabout them.
That's amazing and I thinkyou're right.
As you know, as parents we haveso many messages coming at us
about what we should be afraidof for our kid, or what we need
(23:47):
to worry about, or how we needto prevent or fix or whatever.
That really is such a gift tobe able to see them whole and
just to see them as developing.
So I love the way you phrased.
That was just beautiful.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Thank you.
And it's also, I think,important to add to that that we
are often unconscious of thegenerational trauma that we're
passing along to our kids andthat sounds really big and like
we're being monsters orsomething, but really it's like
I remember when my nephew wasyoung I would say things like oh
my gosh, that sounds like mymother and my grandmother.
(24:23):
That's the exact thing that Ihated as a kid.
So what did I do?
I went and apologized right,like I'm so sorry to my
three-year-old nephew, and Iwould ask him I remember one
incident I'm not going to getinto the details, but like there
was something that was verytraumatic for him and I just sat
with him and let him cry andthen asked him how he was doing
(24:44):
and we kind of talked through itand he was only four, I think,
but he had the ability toactually name how scared he was.
Right, he might have had alimited vocabulary, but there
was something about just beingpresent and allowing him to talk
it through without trying tofix it.
That was so powerful and Iremember.
You know we call them meltdowns, but the truth is they're
(25:05):
having this intense emotionalexperience that something
happening, and I remember Iwould get down on his level and
just be present with him and hewould then start to like ah,
it's not really about regulatingthe emotions, it's about
allowing them to have them andto actually process them.
(25:25):
And there was something thatwas so beautiful about that and
I was like wow, I don't actuallyhave to do anything, I can just
be something or someone forthem.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
I love that.
Thank you for sharing that.
I wholeheartedly agree and feellike the tether that you just
made was really astute in termsof thinking of it, in terms of
generational trauma and ourability to be present right,
because if I have in that moment, like I love my grandparents
(25:58):
dearly and my parents dearly,and also they were coming at
life from a certain viewpointwith the experiences that were
theirs, and so some of thethings that they learned, or
priorities that they had, thingsthat were extremely important,
they translate differently inthis moment, right, and so my
ability to filter that andacknowledge and recognize that
(26:21):
those were their responses andtheir patterns is what allows me
to show up and be present inthis moment with my child, with
what she needs.
But it is a ton of filtering.
It's like you're saying, thethings that have come to us,
most often well-meaning, butfrom a lived experience that is
(26:42):
not our own, and then havingthose be like kind of the tools
or resources we have at ourdisposal, we tend to kind of
start throwing those out realquick instead of, like you said,
giving the gift of presence,which is really the thing that
is needful.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
That's right and you know, as you were speaking, I
was thinking about mygrandparents and you know they
grew up in the depression.
Right, so they had a lot ofideas that there was never
enough, and that was passed downto my mother for sure.
And so the message that Ireceived over and over and over
again was there's not enough.
And my strategy was, for thatwas like I'll show you, there's
(27:19):
always going to be enough.
And so I was an overspender.
I was like trying to look good,I was like I'm going to get
whatever I want, you know.
So, as a young adult, I waslike, oh my gosh, like, oh,
credit cards, I mean, I starteddoing all these things and I had
so much self-criticism and thenI realized, well, like I
understand where it comes from.
It's not my mom's fault, though.
It's mine to do the healing.
(27:40):
And you know, the other thing,to be maybe a little more
vulnerable, I remember I lovedmy grandfather, of course, and
and he was overtly racist, likehe would say things that were
shocking to me, right, and sowhen I was young, I would say,
well, I reject that.
That's horrible.
He's.
That was terrible that he didthat, and of course, there's
truth to that.
But I also at some pointrealized the complexity of I
(28:03):
loved that man.
So what did I do with that?
Right, I absorbed some of it asmuch work as I did to not
absorb it.
I think I have to acknowledgethat I grew up swimming in that
consciousness, so I have had todo some of the deeper work of
what are my unconscious biasesaround race and what wants and
needs to be healed, becausepretending like I don't have it
(28:25):
is not going to help thesituation and it's certainly not
going to help me right, becausethen I would project it outward
.
How dare those people do that?
But it's like wait a minute.
I absorbed that from a person Iloved and there are layers of
complexity with that.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah, yeah, thank you for sharing that example.
I think you touched on somethingalso that I would love to dive
into in terms of awareness.
I mean, like your, your booksaround, you know, being
conscious of these things, right, like bringing these things
into our consciousness so thatwe're not at the mercy of them
anymore, but we can use thatawareness to kind of move
(29:02):
forward in a way that feels moreresonant and intentional.
I've often heard people say,when they start, you know,
becoming aware of their kind ofwhat's swimming in their
subconscious, sometimes theyfeel a little bit like they're
drowning in it, like it startsto feel kind of big and it
starts to feel like the depth isway more than maybe they
(29:22):
anticipated.
You know, and I think in my ownexperience, the more I develop
awareness, the more I'm, youknow, aware of, and it's not
always something that's easy tosit with and it's not always
something that's reallycomfortable.
So what do you?
What do you tell people?
You know, maybe there'ssomebody listening who's you
kind of in this process, andthey've been trying to become
(29:42):
more aware and they're also likeoh my gosh, it's a lot, yes.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Well, that's why I start with the foundation of
we're whole and perfect.
There's a place within us thatis still whole and perfect.
Making contact with that anddeveloping or cultivating a
relationship with what I callthe essential self Some might
call God essence, some mightcall their spiritual self
there's all these differentrooms, buddhists would call it
our Buddha nature.
That, as a starting point, Ithink, allows us to swim in the
(30:13):
deep end with much more ease.
Right, because if I believe Iam my subconscious ideas, if I
believe I am my unconsciousbiases, that can become really
unsettling and people we can getthrown off.
But when I say I didn't come inwith that, right, I didn't come
in with any kind of hatred forother people.
(30:33):
I was taught that I didn't comein believing that I was not good
enough or unworthy.
I was taught that.
So having a relationship withthe part of us that's still
unharmed by all of that is thestarting point.
So, simply said, it's atwo-step process One,
cultivating a relationship withthe essential self, and two,
(30:53):
questioning and quite possiblyunlearning just about everything
we've ever been taught or havecome to believe about ourself in
the world.
That's all just unlearneverything.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
No, I mean you make a good point though, because I
think and thank you for touchingback to that that key teaching
around being whole and likeapproaching and seeing ourselves
from through the lens ofwholeness to start, because that
can diffuse some of the maybeburden of the awareness that we
might end up feeling.
Talk to me about what kind ofshifts you see happening when
(31:27):
people access this greaterunderstanding of and experience
of their own wholeness.
I know you talk about kind ofrelationships shifting before
your eyes, and I think sometimeswe can think to ourselves like
no way that, like a simplechange in the way I view myself
and, like you know, radicallychanging my belief and then
(31:48):
acting from that place is goingto resolve XYZ relationship
problem that I've had for 20years.
Or you know that my tendencythat I've had my whole life and
hopefully, in listening to youtoday, you know we're
recognizing.
Well, you've had it your wholelife because the belief
developed early in your life andso you carried it right, we
carried it.
You know we all, we all havethose, those beliefs embedded in
(32:11):
different ways, but what do yousee as like the signs that that
it's shifting?
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Well, I think, first and foremost, when I'm out of
touch with my true essence, Ilook to the world to provide
that, and so no relationshipbased in that is ever going to
be satisfying ultimately,because if I think I'm broken
but I'm going to find Mr or Mswonderful to heal that, there's
no person that can do that forme, right, and not to mention
(32:37):
that then the unconsciousbeliefs and ideas keep
replicating themselves.
So the number one shift thathappens is when I start to feel
whole again and when I start tocultivate a relationship with my
wholeness.
I start to see that everywhere.
In my third book, consciousCreation, I use the metaphor of
a movie and I have an acronym.
(32:58):
M-O-V-I-E because we're holdinga projector.
And, yeah, and the wonderfulByron Katie, I like to give a
credit where credit's due.
She says if we have a piece ofLent on the lens that we're
looking at life through, we willsee it everywhere and we will
think it's happening in theworld.
We think we need to change therelationships or change the
person or change the situation,but we really just need to clear
(33:20):
the lens and then we start tosee the world in a very
different way.
Another way to say it reallysimply is when I started doing
this shift, I find myself notbeing a victim anymore, and that
word sounds a little harsh.
So let me say what I mean bythat.
If I hear myself saying thingslike why does this keep
happening to me?
I can look in a very gentle andloving way and say, oh, I am in
(33:42):
a victim perspective and I'mnot saying that people aren't
victims to situations in theworld, especially when we're
young.
But we often take on theidentity of a victim and the
empowering place is to say I'mno longer going to give that
person from when I was seven thepower anymore.
I'm taking that back.
And so when we start to shiftthe lens, when we start to clear
(34:03):
these core false beliefs, itdoes seem like the relationships
heal themselves magically.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
And it can take a lifetime, but it can also happen
in an instant of awareness fromwithin, you know, and I think
there are a lot of of ways wecan still look for like
validation externally.
(34:29):
Or you know and I love the, thedescription that you're sharing
, which is more of just like awellspring.
It seems like like it's therewhen you need it and so noticing
, like if that's present for you.
Notice, you know, if I'mfeeling that sense of like my
own essence and my essentialbeing as I'm interacting with
(34:50):
the world, or a thought or anidea or realization like that
being the true North, instead oflike scrambling, like whose
voice should I listen to aboutthis now?
Or who?
You know, who?
What expert do I need to helpme filter this Like no, no, no,
no.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Yeah, and we start to see it everywhere, right?
So if I am holding a sense ofbrokenness, I will unconsciously
look for brokenness in theworld.
And we see that all over socialmedia and in the news.
And if I'm looking and healingand I'm looking at myself as a
whole and perfect being, I'mstarting to see that everywhere
in the world, even in surprisingplaces.
(35:31):
I mean, you know, I'll give youa practical example.
When I was in my early 20s, Ijust thought my mom should be
more loving.
Why wasn't my mom morenurturing?
I did not have a nurturing mom.
That's kind of true.
I don't say that with anyjudgment anymore, it's just kind
of true about her.
But the narrative that I kepthaving was she never asked me
about anything in my life.
(35:51):
And I woke up one day andthought I never asked her about
hers either.
I'm wanting her to beinterested in my life, but I'm
not expressing any interest.
And I thought, oh, I'm going tohave to be interested in QVC
and shopping and the things thatreally she loves.
And then I thought, okay, I'mgoing to go on this experiment
and I'm going to ask her abouther new earrings I'm going to
(36:13):
ask her about.
And I started asking her abouther life and our relationship
healed so quickly.
And what I'm not saying cause,you know, we we hear the term
like codependency.
I'm not saying, you know,abandon my own needs and only
focus on the other person.
But I was in a dynamic with herwhere I was wanting, or I
thought needing, her toacknowledge me, and so the
(36:34):
experiment was let meacknowledge her and, lo and
behold, she started becomingmore curious about my life and
there was a period in my early20s where we talked every single
day on the phone.
We were genuinely interested ineach other and there was so
much healing that like healed 20years of what I considered to
be trauma in that relationshipsimply with that experiment.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
That's really powerful.
Again, how do you describe it?
The that awareness kind of likebubbling up.
Like when you create the spacefor it, you open yourself up to
you know, moving and acting inthe world in a different way,
you come to that place of likeyour essential self and the
wholeness that that is you, youknow in some part.
(37:18):
And then the awareness justkind of I mean, I've called it
like flow, I've called it, yeah,bubbling up.
How do you describe it?
Because it it is sometimes likea whoa moment, but other times
it's like a huh moment.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Right, and it can be both in about five minutes.
Whoa, right?
I mean, it's a process, right,or at least it seems to be a
process.
But, as I said, there can be aninstantaneous awareness of a
deeper sense of reality too.
I mean, I've had theseexperiences, some of them
profound.
I think William James wroteabout the varieties of religion.
(37:55):
He called it a religiousexperience, but really a
spiritual experience, and hetalks about the educational
variety.
Sometimes it happens slowlyover time, but sometimes it
happens instantly.
I've had these moments where Iwas aware that, wow, love is all
there actually is.
The rest is just this egotrying to have, you know, have
(38:15):
separation and us and them, andgood and bad, and awarenesses
can be a profound shift and youknow, I of course want to always
be in that.
I had a client ask me once doyou really walk around always
feeling love and only love andseeing everyone as a perfect
being?
And I said, yeah, actually I do, but sometimes I forget,
(38:36):
sometimes I forget that that'sreality.
So I have to remind myself ohyeah, it's not true, these ideas
I have about separation andfear.
Obviously, sometimes thosethings are real and feel very
real, but what I'm really sayingis the only way I can really
shift it is from the inside out,not the outside in.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Yeah, yeah, I love the way you said that and I
think being able to againbelieve that that's possible is
sometimes a leap for people,right?
I mean, in my experience, beingable to believe that there is a
way to view the world.
You know, with everything thatwe're navigating, being able to
(39:16):
see the world through that lenssometimes feels daunting, but,
like you said, it's a little bitat a time and it's a growth
process through whatever levelsof awareness we need to move
through in order to get thereand trusting that, with the
continued desire and openness toit, that that can be right,
(39:37):
like the reality, the way thatyou view yourself and other
people.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Yeah, that can become the predominant way we see the
world, right, and I think youknow, we hear that we're in a
very polarized time.
I actually think we've justbeen conditioned to have
polarized thinking.
I mean, we're trained from avery early age that there is
good and bad and right and wrong.
And you know people can debatethat.
Of course there's some thingsthat are good and bad, and I
remember saying this chair issolid.
(40:04):
Is that true?
Yeah, it is true, but we knowit's actually not the whole
truth, right, and it was anabsolute fact that the world is
flat, right Now, they hadlimited information and so now
we believe it's round andbelieve me, I'm not a flat
earther, just for the record.
But I think with more awarenesswe'll realize oh, it wasn't the
whole story, right, and wethink we know everything now.
(40:25):
But the truth is we only knowwhat we have the ability to see.
So with expanded awareness wecan see more, a greater
possibility.
And so, again, curiosityexpands, judgment constricts.
I like to ask open-endedquestions like what am I making
this mean?
What is available for me thatI'm not seeing?
What is a different possibilityhere?
(40:48):
How does it get even betterthan this?
Right?
So you know, it's really not asmuch about what happens, but
more about how we frame whathappens.
That creates our experience ofit.
It doesn't mean we pretendthings aren't happening in the
world.
We're not burying our head inthe sand, because that's what
people will sometimes say when Italk about this.
What I'm saying is, if we callsomething horrible, we will
(41:11):
experience it as horrible.
When we think, wow, there'ssomething that's wanting to heal
here globally, how can Iparticipate in that?
We have a very differentexperience of it.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Yes, all day long to that.
Yes, yes, yes.
This morning I had a call withone of my little clients who was
experiencing some stomach achespretty consistently, and we
were talking about pain and wewere talking about through this
lens of like what we call it.
And so, if we call it, mystomach hurts and like not to
(41:46):
negate the pain, you're feelingright, but like, yep, you're
feeling pain, but if we call ita stomach ache, and then the
tendency is to like, see more ofit.
And she even said in her sweetlittle way she was like, but I
know my brain looks for thething I tell it to, so it will
just be more pain if I say that.
And I was like, oh my gosh, tobe eight years old and know,
(42:07):
that, but what?
what we were talking about wascalling it awareness and like
creating a more neutral way todescribe the experience that
would then like lend itself to adifferent interpretation,
different action and differentjudgment around it.
You know, and so I think, likefrom the micro like that to the
macro that you described interms of the world like, this is
(42:29):
a world inviting healing.
This is a, you know, a globalmovement toward greater
compassion.
This is, you know, however wephrase it like, we will see the
pieces of it that are that, andso being able to do make those
changes, like in our own life,and then see the ripple effect
as we then view the world in adifferent way, it's such an
(42:51):
incredibly powerful thing, yeah,and if we look at, like the
stomach, the pain in the worldin a different way.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
It's such an incredibly powerful thing, yeah.
And if we look at like thestomach, the pain in the stomach
is a perfect example, becausethere's something there that's
wanting attention.
Right, it might not be anythingnegative at all.
It might be an issue that needsto be looked at, right?
I mean, if we put our finger ina hot stove, it hurts for a
reason.
Ouch, we don't want to burn ourfinger off, right?
If I can look at emotions thatway, if I can look at a headache
that way, not, oh my gosh, it'sterrible.
(43:16):
I keep having these headaches.
Oh, the pain.
And then, if we look at maybe alittle bit more globally or
maybe existentially, you know,the news is not news, right?
My friend Michael Beckwith saysthe news isn't news, it's olds.
It's the same old story, thesame old story of fear, of
separation, and what I'm notsaying is that those things
(43:38):
aren't happening in the world,but it's a tiny, tiny, tiny time
.
I mean, it's a fraction of afraction of a fraction of a
fraction of percentage of thesehorrible things that we put on
the news and say this isnewsworthy.
I mean, there's so much love inthe world, there's so much
happiness, there's so muchconnection.
I mean, there's so much love inthe world, there's so much
happiness, there's so muchconnection.
And someone listening might say,oh, so you're just going to
pretend like these things aren'thappening?
No, but it's not the wholestory, right?
(44:00):
I mean I could go on a bigtangent, but all I'm going to
say is this what we focus ongrows.
So we have the opportunity tochoose for ourselves where we
put our attention.
We don't have to pretend likesomething's not happening.
You know, we look at activism.
Much of activism is fightingagainst.
Mother Teresa said I will notbe in an anti-war protest, but I
(44:24):
will be in a pro-peacedemonstration.
I will stand for peace, but I'mnot going to stand against war.
That sounds maybe nice forsomeone to hear.
But to really lean into thatand say what am I standing for
and what am I positioning myselfagainst, that's profound.
Actually, it's a profoundpractice.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Yeah, it really is.
I have loved everything aboutthis conversation.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
This has been such a delight.
Tell our listeners where theycan find me.
If you got a lot out of thisyou know four to five minute
conversation.
Just imagine if you got TJ'sbooks and workbook where you'd
be at.
So let them know where they canfind you.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
Yeah, tj Woodwardcom, that's where you'll find books,
courses, all my social links.
I'm so grateful and I alwayslike to close any, any talk or
any conversation I have with.
If no one's told you yet today,you are a whole and perfect
spiritual being.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Thank you so much, TJ .
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Thank you, Lindsay.
I've been so honored to be here.
I loved our conversation.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
I did as well.
You've just finished an episodeof the Stress Nanny Podcast, so
hopefully you feel a littlemore empowered when it comes to
dealing with stress.
Feel free to take a deep breathand let it out slowly as you go
back to your day.
I'm so glad you're here Ifyou're a longtime listener.
Thank you so much for yoursupport.
It really means the world to me.
(45:48):
If you're new, I'd love to haveyou follow the podcast and join
me each week, and no matter howlong you've been listening.
Please share this episode withsomeone who is stressed out.
If you enjoyed the show, wouldyou please do me a favor and go
to ratethispodcastcom, slashthestressnanny and leave a
review.
The link is in the show notes.
I'm so grateful for all mylisteners.
(46:09):
Thank you again for being here.
Until next time.
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