October 25, 2025 • 41 mins
Ever wish your teen would text more than “k,” while your paragraphs go unread? We dive into a simple framework that makes family communication clearer and calmer: six modes—sending, talking, meaning-making, tacit knowing, signaling, and advocacy—and how to switch between them without adding more stress. Our guest, Craig Mattson, professor of communication and author of Digital Overwhelm, brings research from modern workplaces into everyday parenting, showing how the same pressures and patterns play out at the dinner table, in the car, and over text.
We unpack what each mode looks like at home: when to broadcast logistics, when to go one-on-one, how to explain the why behind rules, and why some skills are best learned by doing rather than explaining. We also decode the subtle stuff—tone, timing, punctuation—so your messages land the way you intend. Craig shares a memorable bookstore story where a plan fell apart and flexibility saved the day, modeling how small experiments (QR codes, short videos, quick chats) can reach different people with the right touch at the right time.
Mindfulness threads through the conversation. We talk about noticing your default mode, spotting the moment you’re “stuck,” and choosing a new approach on purpose. You’ll hear practical language shifts that create distance from big feelings, drawing on relational frame theory: “you’re having overwhelm” rather than “you are overwhelmed.” We close with simple ways to teach kids a wider range of modes—clear updates, compassionate talks, meaning checks, subtle signals, and brave advocacy—plus a reminder to lean on your village of coaches, teachers, and mentors so you don’t have to do it all yourself.
Listen for real-world examples, short scripts you can try today, and a calm path forward when life is loud. If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs a little more ease, and leave a quick review so more parents can find these tools.
For more on Craig's work click here. To get Craig's book click here.
Lindsay Miller is a distinguished kids mindfulness coach, mindfulness educator and host of The Stress Nanny Podcast. She is known for her suitcase tricks and playful laugh. When she's not cheering on her daughter or rollerblading on local trails with her husband, you can find her using her 20+ years of child development study and mindfulness certification to dream up new ways to get kids excited about deep breathing. Having been featured on numerous podcasts, platforms and publications, Lindsay’s words of wisdom are high impact and leave a lasting impression wherever she goes.
To sign up for Lindsay's "Calm & Collected" Newsletter click here.
To review the podcast click here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:20):
Welcome to the Stress Nanny, the podcast where
we take the overwhelm out ofparenting and help kids and
parents build calm, confidence,and connection.
I'm your host, Lindsay Miller,kids' mindfulness coach and
cheerleader for busy familieseverywhere.
Each week we'll explore simpletools, uplifting stories, and
practical strategies to helpyour child learn emotional
(00:42):
regulation, resilience, andself-confidence, while giving
you a little more peace of mindtoo.
I'm so glad you're here.
My guest today is Craig Matson.
He's an organizationalresearcher who serves as a
professor of communication atCalvin University.
He's written several books andnumerous essays, often exploring
the communicational complexitiesof organizational life.
(01:03):
When he's not writing andreading and podcasting, he's
enjoying the natural world,hiking, running, and playing
driveway pickleball.
Craig lives with his right wifeRhoda in Grand Rapids, Michigan,
and their four adult childrenlive and study and work across
the Midwest.
Craig, thanks so much forjoining me today.
I'm looking forward to thisconversation.
SPEAKER_00 (01:23):
Me too.
I love the connection betweenour two projects, and I'm
excited to see what overlapemerges and what I can learn
too.
SPEAKER_01 (01:32):
Yeah.
Well, and as we were talkingoffline before we hit record, we
were exploring the differentways that like family life is
complex because we rely heavilyon digital tools to connect with
our kids.
If we've got adult kids, we arerelying even more heavily on
that.
But if we have kids at home, youknow, if we're traveling, if
(01:53):
there are other things going on,there's changes in practice that
we need to communicate, we arereally utilizing a variety of
modes of communication to stayconnected throughout the day.
Before we go deeper, Craig, canyou help our audience get
acquainted with the idea of amode of communication?
SPEAKER_00 (02:11):
Yes, I would be so happy to.
So I think of a mode as anapproach.
We could use a couple ofdifferent words.
We could talk about it as aposture.
I use that in my book quite abit.
It's a posture towardssomething.
But basically, it's a style oran approach to something.
So if you're thinking aboutsomething that your adult child,
(02:36):
like they've made a decisionrecently, I have four kids,
they're all young adults, so I'mthinking about this a lot.
If they've made a decisionrecently, yeah, your
relationship with them, yourapproach to them is going to be
quite a lot different than itwas when they were 10.
And so we're always thinkingabout modes and we're always
having to like switch our modes,switch our approaches based on
(03:00):
the ever-changing context ofjust being a person and being a
parent.
SPEAKER_01 (03:05):
Yeah.
Let's go even deeper into thatand talk through the modes that
you've come up with in yourresearch.
And again, for our listeners,we're we're translating this
organizational and businessresearch that Craig has done
around communication, and we'retranslating it into family life.
So initially, we're just goingto go through what his research
entails, and then we're going tomake the connection into
(03:26):
everyday family moments.
SPEAKER_00 (03:29):
Okay, let's do it.
So as I talked with Gen Z andmillennial working professionals
about the intensities of thepressures of life and work in
the early 2020s, they don't seemmuch less pressurized today, but
let's just say in the early2020s, we were feeling a lot of
things.
(03:49):
I noticed that they took sixdifferent approaches to these
pressures.
And I have a lens for the way Ilook at things because I study
communication.
I noticed that they often usedcommunication as a way to
approach just surviving andcoping and dealing with all
those pressures.
(04:10):
So what are those modes or thoseways of coping?
The first was some people reallylike to send things.
So if you have a lot of stuffcoming at you and you're feeling
a lot of pressure, maybe youshould write a 950-word email
and send it out, right?
So that I'm making fun of, but alot of people do use the mode of
(04:32):
sending stuff as a way to dealwith it.
You do, apparently.
SPEAKER_01 (04:35):
I have like I'm the soccer team manager for my
daughter's soccer team, and someof those emails I send, they are
anyway.
Yep, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (04:43):
I do not know how you could be a soccer team
coordinator without sending alot of stuff.
So that's something we've got toexplore further, Lindsay.
But yeah, so another mode wouldbe we need to talk.
So let's have a face-to-face orscreen-to-screen conversation,
but it needs to be more or lessa one-on-one.
Like, let's get into this, youand me, let's figure this out.
(05:07):
And so that might be with amanager in my research
participants' case, or it mightbe with a coworker.
But for us as parents, it mightbe like, I don't know what to do
with, you know, my kid rightnow.
I guess we need to take a walkand we need to talk this thing
out, or take a drive and havesome windshield time.
(05:27):
A third mode would be meaning.
So, meaning things is what Icalled it.
And this is a little bit of ameta idea, but it has to do with
like, what's the point?
Why, why are we doing this?
What's the purpose here?
What are our goals?
And what is the meaningfulnessor lack of meaningfulness in
(05:49):
this particular kind of work?
I did have research participantswho very this sort of surprised
me, you know, despite all thepressures and intensities, or
maybe because of them, theywould sort of pull back and say,
Yeah, why why am I doing this?
It also happened to be in themiddle of the great resignation
when a lot of people were askingthose very questions.
I didn't notice that at first,but gradually it really came
(06:12):
through.
But I think as parents, too,sometimes we set up a rule,
like, okay, no screens at thetable, which sounds like a great
rule, by the way, or, you know,no snacks in the back of the
minivan or whatever.
And at a certain point, yourkids mature into the question of
why is that a rule and how doesthat make sense?
(06:34):
And so, in that, that's a goodmode.
It can be a little hard whenyou're the parent, but it's a
good mode, and it helps you tosort of step back and ask some
vital questions about, yeah,like what is happening here and
what's all this about.
All right, you still still goodhere?
SPEAKER_01 (06:50):
Yeah, I'm loving this.
Yeah, these are great examples.
SPEAKER_00 (06:52):
All right, cool.
So the fourth mode would be thisis this maybe the strangest one,
but it's when you don't sayanything.
I just called it the uh thetacit mode, the unspoken mode.
And this is when you knowthings, maybe as a professional
or maybe as a parent, and you'renot exactly sure how to talk
(07:13):
about it, but you just know it'sthe case.
Sometimes I noticed that peoplewould retreat to that mode when
the pressure became intense.
They're like, I know this istrue, or I know this is how you
do this, or I know this iswhat's best in this situation,
even if I can't defend it or Ican't explain it.
And I think this mode is superimportant as a parent, too.
(07:34):
I mean, just down to simplethings like how to ride a bike.
Like, it is really hard toexplain to a kid how to ride a
bike.
You just have to kind of do itand run along beside him and
say, oh, pedal a little fasterand that'll help.
So that's like stuff you can'ttalk about exactly.
You just have to kind of know itand do it.
And then the fifth mode could becalled signaling things.
(07:57):
And this is sort of a less ismore mode approach to stress.
I saw a lot of people doing thiswhere you don't say outright
what's frustrating you, you kindof indicate it, you you signal
it.
So in the lives of workingprofessionals, this might be
something like quiet quitting,where you're sort of letting
(08:17):
your boss know that you're nothappy or you're not totally
invested, but you're also notlike sending them an email and
saying that.
And you know, kids, of course,have lots of ways of signaling
this.
And some of those come throughin our digital interactions with
our children, hence all thekerfluffles about punctuation,
like, dad, don't use periodslike that.
(08:38):
That is you're yelling at me orsomething like that.
So I'm like, oh, that'ssignaling something I wasn't
intending to signal.
And then the last mode, phew,we're finally there, is
advocacy.
So this is when you're trying toconvince somebody of something
or persuade them.
Sometimes it's yourself thatyou're trying to persuade, but
that's a super important mode inthe workplace.
(09:00):
And I think as far as parentinggoes, I'll something I wish I
had done better as a parentwould be to be a little bit more
intentional about helping mychildren to be advocates for
something that they care about,might be just advocating for
themselves.
So those are the approaches andthe postures that I noticed
among people.
(09:21):
And I'm super interested to hearwhat's resonating with you or
where we should go next.
SPEAKER_01 (09:26):
Yeah, no, I love that.
Thank you for going through eachof those.
You know, as I'm sit listening,I'm thinking of it both from
like a standpoint of familycommunication, like parent to
child, but then also theeffectual skills kids need in
order to make their way in theworld and having these be things
we teach our children.
(09:48):
So, like having the relationalskill set that entails all of
these, but then also being ableto communicate about it in a way
that allows our kids tocultivate this full range of
modes of communication.
SPEAKER_02 (10:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:02):
Because one of the things you said that really
struck me was the idea that likecommunication is a small but
shareable zone of action wherewe have important choices to
make.
Am I quoting that right?
SPEAKER_00 (10:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:17):
And so in that way, like parenting is full of those,
right?
A small but shareable zone ofaction where we have important
choices to make.
And being able to switch, youknow, around from all of these
different modes and utilize themeffectively or as effectively as
we can, right?
We're one of the things I loveis that you're like, we're not
gonna get it right most of thetime.
(10:39):
And also we're all overwhelmed.
So, like we're just starting thebaseline, that's a starting
place.
You've got it.
But one of the things that likeI'm curious about from your
perspective as both a parent anda professional is like you talk
a lot about how like knowingyour default mode is important,
right?
So, how as we're kind of goingthrough all of these, what are
(10:59):
some of the signals like that aparent might be able to tune
into if they're looking atparent-child conversation or
parent-child interaction, whatwould they maybe use as bearings
to figure out where theirdefault is?
SPEAKER_00 (11:15):
Yeah.
Oh, that's superb.
Okay, so let me try this outwith you and see if this works.
So pay attention to what makesyou mad.
I think that might be a signalof a mode you care about, or
that maybe you're a little stuckin.
So I can give an example, andthis time I'll start with the
parenting rather than theprofessional situations.
(11:38):
So I remember when our kids wereyoung and things were chaotic at
dinner.
I never thought our son wouldever sit in a chair.
I just thought he was going tostand on his chair until late
adulthood.
It was very chaotic, and I wouldcome out of the classroom where
I had been teaching or whatever.
My wife was coming from her joband we had things we wanted to
(11:59):
talk about.
We would usually set a timelimit where we'd say, okay, mom
and dad want to talk right nowfor about five minutes.
Okay, so if you all just eatyour food and we'll talk.
But that just didn't work veryoften.
It was a lovely idea that justwasn't really executable.
And so I usually got prettyfrustrated with this.
(12:20):
I can still remember that senseof like, ugh, I have something I
really want to say.
And I can't say it right nowbecause four other people are
talking.
And this feels like an importantthing.
And I was probably exaggeratinghow important it was, but it
felt important in the moment,right?
SPEAKER_02 (12:40):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:41):
And but the way I knew I was stuck, only in
retrospect, but the way I know Iwas stuck was that I could not
change my mode.
It had to be a one-on-oneconversation with my partner, or
it wasn't gonna be.
And that that was dumb, right?
Like if I had been able to openup the mode and say, well, let's
(13:03):
try this out and let's, youknow, sort of fold into what
other people are talking aboutor what other people experienced
that day, wow, that would havebeen a lot happier dinner table.
And we probably would havelaughed a lot more.
We did have some dinners likethat.
But so that's one example whereI just knew or I just know I was
stuck because it I felt squeezedin the moment.
(13:26):
I felt mad or frustrated.
And I was just being sort ofinflexible.
SPEAKER_01 (13:32):
Yeah, that's such a great example.
Thank you for sharing that.
And we're gonna get into theflexibility piece in just a
minute because I love that aboutyour work.
One of the things as you weretalking that was coming to mind
for me was just like I amprobably, I mean, in my soccer
mom, when I'm wearing my soccermom hat, I'm definitely the
sending mode, right?
(13:53):
But at home, I think I'mprobably more of an advocacy
person where I'm like trying toconvince my child of my way of
seeing things or why taking intoaccount a different perspective
on this could be supportive orthose kind of things.
And so I think that in momentswhen, you know, as we're texting
a lot now that she's like ateenager, so a lot of our
(14:14):
communication throughout theday, whether she's at school or
at a practice or something,she's texting.
And it's those are very short,right?
Generally.
And just to your point about theperiods, I'm making a full
sentence about stuff.
And you know, I'm getting back ayeah, and I'm like, you know,
it's kind of casual for me, butfor her, it's a very strong
(14:35):
positive response, right?
Like she's, you know, she'sreally it's landing for her.
So what you just suggested makesa lot of sense to me because I
find that if I'm not feelingunderstood, or I don't feel like
she fully grasped what I justcommunicated in a potentially
very long text, uh, which isanother one of my things I'm
(14:56):
working on.
But if I just get a shortresponse from her, I'm not sure
she's understood the full, youknow, or like she's convinced of
my perspective, or that I'veadvocated for this point of view
in an effective way.
So that's a good invitation forme to shift into a more, you
know, like maybe she's like it'smore tacit for her.
Like there's some unspokenthings and she's just like
(15:17):
acknowledging, but not gonnawrite three sentences in a text
about it, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (15:22):
Yes.
Yeah, I this these stories getall crowded together because
we're having these kind ofexchanges, it seems like in an
accelerated fashion, we're justhaving more and more of these
kinds of exchanges.
We have them with workcolleagues, we have them with
children, we have them withspouses.
(15:43):
When I first moved to GrandRapids, where I teach now at
Kelvin University, I had to comealone because we didn't yet have
a house.
And so I lived in somebody'sapartment for a few months, and
my spouse and I communicatedalmost solely electronically.
And it it was it was prettydifficult for me.
And I think a lot of it camedown to what you just named,
(16:06):
which is a sort of feltdisparity in the investment in a
particular mode ofcommunication.
So my wife hates to text andfinds it just like an activity
she does as briefly as possible.
And I, like you, it sounds like,tend to be a little more verbose
(16:27):
in my texting.
So that was something we had towork through because that her
sort of brief responses wouldsignal one thing to me, which
wasn't at all what she wasthinking and feeling.
And my long texts, I don't knowif they were well received
either, at least not in thesense that that I felt.
So I feel like we're navigatingthis in six different ways from
(16:47):
Sunday with colleagues,coworkers, clients, and with
parents and children andspouses.
And so, yeah, it's a wholething.
Flexibility super helps.
Helps a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (16:57):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and maybe signaling, maybethat was the one I should have
said was it like hers issignaling.
So I love that you brought thatin.
Let's go to flexibility becauseI think one of the things that I
am, I really like the way thatyou you talk about mode
switching, right?
Like being able to be agilewithin these.
So I might have a primarypreferred mode.
(17:18):
One of the things you advocatefor is like think about the mode
of the person that you'retalking to, as you just
illustrated with the story withyour wife, right?
Like your mode is this and hermode is this.
And so if your primary ordefault mode is not creating the
communication that's supportingforward movement, then like how
can there be some flexibility?
(17:38):
How can we put some flexibilityinto the mix to make it a little
more supportive of connection?
So, what are some of the keythings that you encourage people
to do when they are choosing toget creative or choosing to
stretch?
And feel free to share thatstory about the bookstore that
you've shared before because Ithink that's such a great
example.
SPEAKER_00 (17:59):
Well, I'll take your prompt then.
I think before I tell that quickstory, I I think your question
is a challenging one because Iknow when I need to switch
modes.
I feel it.
I'm stuck.
But how do we actually do thatis a thing that we're gonna need
to explore just a little bitmore.
And I think that's where thiskind of conversation begins to
(18:22):
shade into a kind of therapeuticexchange, because I think how
people figure out how to loosentheir grip on a particular mode
or a particular approachprobably varies by the person
significantly.
So I don't know how easy it willbe for me to generalize on that.
But I will tell you about a timewhen I realized I had to switch
(18:42):
modes.
SPEAKER_01 (18:42):
Yeah.
So let me can I just insert thisreal quick?
I think this is wheremindfulness is so key, right?
So I'm just gonna make ashameless plug for mindfulness
at this point, where like mybasic definition of mindfulness
is knowing what's going oninside of you, knowing what's
going on outside of you, andmaking a choice on purpose.
So being able to be reallypresent, right?
(19:03):
Like you described, like ifthere's some discomfort and you
just know it's not working, likebeing present with awareness, in
my opinion, is what canfacilitate that creativity,
right?
Like we see that all the timewith mindfulness, where there
are different pieces of asituation all kind of combining,
and mindfulness is what allowsus to like say, okay, all these
(19:25):
things can fit together.
I'm not sure how, but I knowI'll be able to figure it out
instead of saying, these don'twork, right?
So, anyway, let's I feel likeyour approach to the bookstore
is very mindful.
SPEAKER_00 (19:38):
Yeah, that's really helpful.
So I want to take that just alittle bit farther.
So that that plug formindfulness feels really basic
to this whole conversation.
I do think in some ways, like mywhole book is just like pay
attention.
SPEAKER_02 (19:51):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (19:52):
There's a lot going on.
And it's frustrating and it's alot and it's overwhelming.
But if you can pay attention, ifyou can, like you said, be aware
of what's going on inside you,what's going on around you, and
make deliberate choices, I thinkthat you're right.
I I feel like that is a hugelyimportant way to cope with
overwhelm.
It doesn't eliminate it, itdoesn't get rid of the
(20:12):
overwhelming conditions, but itdoes make them livable.
SPEAKER_01 (20:16):
Yeah, or like I don't know if even manageable,
but workable.
Right?
Like it gives you like a littleray of hope.
And and that's one of the thingsI really appreciate about your
work too, is that like you'renot saying if you do these
things, you're not gonna beoverwhelmed anymore, right?
You're just saying you're gonnabe able to work with whatever is
in front of you a little, youknow, with a little more skill
(20:38):
if you use this intentionalapproach.
And I think that that's that'sanother piece of the
mindfulness, because withmindfulness, we have this strong
practice of self-compassion,right?
And so I think inserting thatinto this conversation and
recognizing, like you said,everybody's digitally
overwhelmed, everybody's justtrying to figure it out.
(21:00):
Yeah, I'm there's nothing wrongwith me, I'm not broken, I'm not
an awful parent because I'm likereally struggling with this.
I'm not an awful parent becausemy kid is struggling with this.
This is just like a condition ofbeing human right now.
And then if we can just havethat as the baseline, the
creativity is easier, right?
Because we remove the judgment.
SPEAKER_00 (21:19):
Yes.
Oh man, I feel like I should betaking notes here.
This is really great.
I could, in a certain sense,say, I'm a terrible author
because in this book on digitaloverwhelm, I did not address
artificial intelligence much atall.
And it was just really startingto burst out out of the scene as
I was finishing the manuscript,right?
But what I'm choosing to do isto say, nobody's got AI figured
(21:43):
out right now.
And it would be presumptuous forme to say I do.
Maybe there's another book, youknow, five years down the road
or something.
But yeah, I do think that justbeing patient with yourself in
these conditions, or you, as yousaid, self-compassion, that's a
beautiful phrase.
Showing grace to yourself and tothe people around you, it's a
(22:03):
lot.
It's just a terrific lot.
So just recently, I uh reachedout to a bookstore like authors
do and said, Hey, could I comeand do a little talk?
I've got some friends who'd liketo hear, and I'd like to do a
talk at your fine bookstore.
And it happened to be a reallygreat bookstore, Schuler Books
in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
(22:24):
I encourage you to go there.
It's great.
And they said, sure, and youshould come on this date.
And so I invited a whole bunchof people just a day or so
before.
I was reading the fine print alittle more closely, and I
realized that they were puttingme at the front of the store,
right by the door, and it wasnot at all in their cute little,
(22:46):
they had like an auditorium atthe back where you could have a
gathering.
And I was like, oh no, this iscompletely different than I had
invited people to.
I can't do a talk here without amegaphone.
I this just feels ridiculous.
So I wrote to them and said,please, please, could I use that
space even for 20 minutes?
It would make a huge difference.
And they said that it was bookedotherwise and they just couldn't
(23:08):
do it.
So I went to my marketer,Andrea, and said, Oh my god, I'm
I feel really stuck here.
Like I feel most comfortabledoing a talk with, you know,
people who are moderatelyattentive in, you know, 10, 15,
20 people, that would be so easyfor me.
It would really be energizing.
(23:29):
I think they would enjoy it, butI can't do that here.
I'm stuck at a signing tableright by the door.
And so all these people aregoing to be, all these strangers
basically are going to bewalking by.
And she said, Yeah, that sucks.
That's right.
We got to do something else.
And so what we worked out wasessentially, what I don't think
we called it this in the moment,but essentially we just varied
(23:51):
our modes.
And we came up with a waterbottle sticker, we came up with
a bookmark with a QR code, werecorded a short video that gave
a talk and put that on the QRcode.
And then yeah, I recruited myadvertiser daughter to help.
And we stood at the door andtried to gauge people's
(24:14):
expressions as they camethrough.
If they were really resistant toconversation, like I might feel
sometimes coming to a bookstore,I'm just aft, I'm running an
errand.
Please leave me alone.
We would just say, Here's awater bottle sticker.
If they seemed a little moreinterested and they wanted to
say, Yeah, what's this about?
Then we would say, Well, here'sa bookmark.
There's a QR code on it.
(24:35):
And use the bookmark forwhatever you buy in the store
today, but that QR code has avideo attached.
And then some people wanted totalk.
And for them, we would reachover, grab a book, and say, Hey,
well, you know, like here's whatwe're here's what we're talking
about here, and maybe you shouldcheck this out.
And so it took a decent amountof energy in those two hours to
(24:56):
kind of switch, figure out whichmode is right, but also to just
have more than one mode on hand.
I wanted to do a unilateraltalk, and what I found myself in
was a situation where that justwas not appropriate.
And I'm grateful to my marketerfor helping me figure this out.
And it turned out to be a reallyfun afternoon.
(25:17):
So that's my cheerful story.
SPEAKER_01 (25:20):
Yeah.
I love again, like theflexibility of it, right?
And that's what you illustratewhen you share the story is like
the ability to adapt, right?
To the mode that the person infront of you is preferring or
that you're perceiving thatthey're preferring.
But then you're also adaptingyour own ability to connect,
right?
And I think that's where a lotof times as parents, let's maybe
(25:43):
shift gears a little bit here toteaching our kids how to
communicate effectively inmultiple ways.
I think that that's where, asparents, a lot of times we might
see our kid really great atcertain modes of communication,
and then really also seeopportunities for them to kind
of grow their range, right?
And to adopt or lean into someof these modes that aren't as
(26:07):
familiar to them or that aren'tas like just their defaults.
SPEAKER_00 (26:12):
Yeah.
Oh wow.
That's just bringing back somany memories of like exchanges
with my children, what I couldhave done, what I did do, and so
forth.
It is fun to remember thecomplexities of trying to
communicate in so many differentways and so rapidly in the flow
of life.
You know, everybody's doing somuch.
It seems to me, I'm gonna haveto ask for your help on this,
(26:33):
Lindsay, but it seems to me thatyou'll be able to discern what
your kids are good at.
Like some of them just will bereally talky, right?
Some of them want, they maybe toan exhausting extent, they want
to talk and they want to havethat ongoing dialogue from the
moment they hit the door afterschool until they hit their head
(26:55):
hits the pillow.
And then others are much lesswilling to talk, and in
different phases of life,they're less willing to talk.
We certainly had externalprocessors and internal
processors in our kids.
So, yeah, figuring out what thatis.
And then it's also seems to methat almost no child is like
instinctively good at sendingthings, like that's something we
(27:17):
have to like coach every singlechild in the world on.
When you get to the party, makesure you send me a text.
And when you're ready to go,make sure you say, you know.
So that's that's a whole otherthing, right?
So yeah, what how does thatsound to you?
It seems to me like we canfigure that out, like what
they're really good at, and thenoffer them some alternatives.
SPEAKER_01 (27:38):
Yeah, yeah, no, for sure.
And I think I I like the idea ofknowing there are gonna be some
that we kind of just naturallytrain on as parents, right?
We are training the send mode,you know, like you're you're
suggesting from a very earlyage.
We're pretty consistently askingfor that information.
And then I think too, justhonoring the feedback that we're
(28:01):
getting from them helps themfine-tune, right?
Like, and maybe this is this ispulling back to like the
parent-child perspective.
But the other day, my daughterwas feeling some tension around
an upcoming regatta.
She had it had been quite awhile since she had a race
because she just does that atschool.
So she just does it for severalmonths out of the year, hadn't
(28:22):
had a race in a while.
Their last race, they had had areally great race in the
preliminaries and then in thefinals, it hadn't gone the way
they wanted it to.
So she'd sat with that race foralmost a year, right?
So we're talking through likeall this tension she's feeling,
and we've been working throughit for a while and trying to see
like where and what and how.
And it was interesting because Iwas dropping her off at the
airport for this race that shewas going to, and again, in my
(28:45):
advocating, I'm like, justremember, and you, you know, I'm
trying to convince her to beconfident in herself, basically,
right?
And I'm like, here are all thereasons you can, and I stopped
and because she just was like,Mom, stop.
Like she was almost just at ather limit of hearing me.
And so she was just like, pleasestop.
(29:06):
And I was like, Okay, but I alsosensed in that moment like a
need for something, like you'resuggesting, right?
Like it was just a known sensethat like I needed to provide
something, but I wasn't surewhat it was.
And so I went to humor, which isone of the things that we I can
usually lighten things up in ourhouse if I can shift into humor.
I don't know which mode thatgoes into.
(29:27):
But I so I started using humor,and we'll tell funny stories or
make up stories about somethingthat's in front of us.
That's one of our like ways wediffuse tension.
And so I just started telling astory, and immediately she
lightens up.
There's this woman picking upthis random boarding pass off
the ground.
So we started just in a kindway, but making a story about
(29:48):
why she was picking up thisboarding pass and all of this.
What was telling in that momentwas that exactly like you
described, it was clear to mefrom her communication and her
manner that what I was trying toDo and the way I was trying to
get a message through that smallbut shareable zone where I have
important choices to make, likeI was not making the right
(30:08):
choice there, right?
But then when I shifted and Iwas not advocating as much
anymore, but I was justexplaining in a different way or
just lightening the moment,that's when we could connect
again.
And so in my mind, I think thathaving those types of moments
with our kids allows us to thenpresent them as learning
(30:29):
moments, right?
Like, oh, if I had that to doover, I could have just started
with the humor, right?
But then being able to have ameta moment with her and say,
okay, you remember the other daywhen we were doing that and I
went straight to telling you howyou should be confident and that
wasn't working, and then welightened it.
Like if we can haveself-awareness in those moments
and admit that maybe there aremoments we didn't handle things
(30:52):
as well as we could have, I feellike those are the like little
nuggets we can offer our kids aswe're encouraging them to
broaden their range in othersituations.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00 (31:02):
Oh yeah.
Yeah, that's great.
I think what you're doing inthat beautiful story is you're
also creating a little bit ofdistance between yourself and
your feelings.
And that's hard to do in themoment.
Like sometimes if you're feelingso your daughter is feeling
(31:26):
overwhelmed at the approach ofthis race, and you're feeling
the pressure to be a good momand to be a responsible parent,
there's just a lot of feelingsin the car.
Maybe also some frustration,some disappointments, a sense of
irritation.
And it's so easy in thosemoments to just kind of become
your feelings, like this is me.
(31:48):
But when you do that sort ofmeta talk, you both help
yourself to create a littledaylight between, okay, I'm
having a feeling like this rightnow, but it's not me.
And I think also it's kind ofamazing how it can help your
daughter do that as well.
And that is an emotional copingtool that will serve her
(32:10):
lifelong because we just oftendo have to, you know, be the
mountain and let the clouds offeeling circulate us like
they're there, but I am notthose clouds, you know.
So I think that's a gift thatyou can give your daughter.
I'm really interested in thistheory called relational frame
(32:32):
theory.
And a lot of it is focused onhow to help people through sort
of small verbal cues.
If your daughter says somethinglike, I am so sick of this, or
I'm so overwhelmed at this, orI'm so frustrated, even a small
(32:52):
change of phrasing, as you sayyou're having some feelings of
overwhelm right now, like evenjust slightly shifting it to
you're not that, but you'refeeling that or you're having
that, like those are small cuesI think we can give that make a
gradual difference.
SPEAKER_01 (33:11):
Yeah.
Oh, I love that.
Yeah, just like giving somedaylight to, like you said, and
I love the mountain with theclouds around it.
Those are all great, greatmetaphors.
And I think we'll circle back atsome point to that conversation,
right?
Because she goes and does therace and she did really well.
And so it was a successful timefor her.
(33:32):
And also from my mom'sstandpoint, like I've got to
help her manage this.
I can't send her off in thisway.
But really, what she just neededwas to go connect with her
friends and then like go do herrace, and she was gonna be fine.
Yeah.
So I think too, again, likeyou're saying, there's some
aspects of it that are maybe alittle easier to separate from
than others.
So while I appreciate thecompliment, I didn't do a full
(33:54):
separation from all of thefeelings.
You know what I mean?
As parents, sometimes that canbe so tricky.
But I love the idea of yeah, ofjust like helping them reframe
because I think that with herafterwards, as I actually heard
her talking to someone else whohad had a really rough race
after her.
So she did her, she did herraces, it was great.
(34:15):
She was talking to someone elsewho was in a boat and they had a
really rough race.
SPEAKER_02 (34:19):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:20):
And it was just fascinating and also beautiful
for me to hear her talk to thatperson and have kind of a full
circle moment with it.
SPEAKER_00 (34:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:30):
And so great.
SPEAKER_01 (34:32):
I I think that like in the conversations we have
with our kids, sometimes we haveto wait for the different modes
to kind of percolate, at leastfor me as a parent.
I kind of want it to be rightnow.
Like I want her to have all theskills right now.
I want to know she's got whatshe needs, you know.
But having a little bit of spaceand letting a situation kind of
(34:57):
emerge or move into its own,that allows some of those things
that the seeds we plant to cometo fruition later.
SPEAKER_02 (35:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (35:06):
But then I also think it creates a scenario
where if we have the distance,we can have the conversations
and say, if I had done thisdifferently, I should have
shifted the way I wascommunicating with you.
I should have been more flexiblebased on your needs.
Or like you've said in other uhcontent that I've listened to of
yours where you're like, hey,this is actually a face-to-face
conversation instead of a text.
(35:26):
Giving kids experience with itand then being able to refer
back to that experience.
SPEAKER_00 (35:32):
Uh yep.
SPEAKER_01 (35:33):
Seems like a good way to teach.
SPEAKER_00 (35:35):
I very much appreciate that.
I think I want to try that outactually with one of my kids.
Like thinking about exchangesI've had, like how good it would
be to go back and say, well,here's what I think was going on
there.
The other thing that reallystrikes me in your story is that
when we're having this kind ofexchange between a manager and
employee, or between a parentand a child, it sometimes feels
(35:59):
like the whole thing is just youand me, kid.
But really, what you're doing inthat moment has a kind of
potential to be for, in the caseof an employee, like the whole
organizational culture.
Or in the case of your family,like it has the potential to be
of help to other people'sfamilies.
(36:20):
And so I think that's anotherframe shift for us is to just
say, yeah, right now this feelslike I'm just irritated with
this particular child.
It's just me and her in theuniverse.
But no, we're always involved inthese larger networks of
relationship.
And for good and ill, but if wecan have that awareness, then
(36:42):
the way that you sort of gavespace to your daughter enabled
her to kind of give space ormaybe just compassion to
somebody else later.
And that somehow tracks back toyou, which is kind of amazing
and wonderful.
SPEAKER_01 (36:54):
And her coach, too.
I mean, to be sure, she reliedheavily.
And I think that's where you'retalking about community or like
realizing it's not just you.
One of the things coming to mindfor me is the idea of like your
village, right?
So, like, maybe some of thesemodes are not modes that are
like your strong suit as aparent.
Maybe like if you have aco-parent, you're you know, if
you're married and you're ableto like kind of tag team some of
(37:15):
the modes, maybe that worksgreat.
But also we have these villagesof people that support our kids,
right?
And so they can find the thedifferent connections like out
of our space.
And so that pressure you'resaying, just you and me in this
moment, and it has to getfigured out.
Sometimes, if we can ease offand add a little daylight, we
(37:38):
recognize that maybe there is asupport person in place for them
who has the wisdom andexperience to say, hey, it's
been a long time, we're notgonna make a big deal out of
this, you're gonna race again,it's gonna be fine.
Don't worry about it.
Like, I've got confidence inyou, like my confidence in her
rowing.
I have confidence in her, but Idon't have the experience to
kind of back it up.
(37:58):
Do you know what I'm saying?
But if a coach says that, youknow, if like you're at church,
somebody at church says that, orif you're just in a different
setting and someone else cankind of like shore up your kid,
I feel like noticing and helpingthem appreciate those modes that
they're able to engage with inother places and with other
people is also like a key partof it.
SPEAKER_00 (38:20):
Yeah, thanks.
That there's a whole socialvision there.
That's really great.
I sometimes feel frustrated bythe work of writing in a book
because I feel two things at thesame time.
I feel like I want to addressthe reader in an almost intimate
fashion.
There's something quite intimateabout reading.
But then there's also this senseof like, well, it's, I don't
(38:42):
know who that person is.
I don't know what their life islike.
And so I'm also addressingcommunities, I'm addressing
neighborhoods, I'm addressingwhole gaggles of people.
And so I think just similarly,when we're in a parental
relationship, I thinkrecognizing that this is
participating in a larger set ofconversations can actually take
(39:05):
some pressure off you.
Just like, yeah, my daughter haspeople besides me.
I'm amazing, but she's got otherpeople.
And I'm gonna trust in them abit.
SPEAKER_01 (39:16):
Yeah.
Well, and then just to bring itfull circle, I have so much
gratitude for the work thatyou've done in compiling these
ideas and presenting thisresearch and offering all of us
this vision of how digitalflexibility can support us as
individuals, in families, incommunity.
And so thank you for your workand for sharing the conversation
(39:38):
today.
SPEAKER_00 (39:39):
You're most welcome.
You're most welcome.
I've really enjoyed this talk.
It's been a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_01 (39:43):
Talk to people about where they can find you, how
they can connect with the book.
SPEAKER_00 (39:49):
The shortest distance between these people
and the book, I'm afraid, wouldbe something like Amazon.
SPEAKER_02 (39:54):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (39:55):
Digital Overwhelm, Craig Mats, and you'll see it
right away.
If you'd like, if that feelslike I want a little bit of a
longer journey there, I'm notsure I want to buy this book,
then stop by my website.
It's just called themodeswitch.com.
And you can see some, you know,I've got a bi-weekly newsletter
and I podcast with a team ofpeople who are trying to work
(40:17):
through some of these issues inwork culture.
So stop by themodeswitch.com.
That might be just like a goodnext step.
But of course, I'd be delightedif people would engage the book
as thoughtfully as you have,Lindsay.
These kinds of conversations arereally life-giving and they sort
of extend the wisdom and insightthat I was hoping for.
So themoat switch.com.
SPEAKER_01 (40:37):
Great.
And you'll like guaranteed toget a few laughs.
I mean, I was, yeah, out of thegate just laughing when you were
talking about like how textingcertain phrases is like
aggressive.
I was like, oh yeah, I do that.
SPEAKER_02 (40:51):
Lots of wisdom there.
SPEAKER_01 (40:53):
Well, thank you again, Craig.
This has been lovely, and Iappreciate you coming on today.
Thanks for listening to TheStress Nanny.
If you found today's episodehelpful, be sure to share it
with a friend who could use alittle extra calm in their week.
And if you have a minute, I'dlove for you to leave a review.
It helps other parents find theshow and join us on this
journey.
For more tools and support, headover to www.thestressnanny.com.
(41:18):
Remember, you don't have to dostress alone.
Together, we can raise kids whoknow how to navigate life with
confidence and ease.
Until next time, take a deepbreath and give yourselves some
grace.
Welcome to the Stress Nanny, the podcast where
we take the overwhelm out ofparenting and help kids and
parents build calm, confidence,and connection.
I'm your host, Lindsay Miller,kids' mindfulness coach and
cheerleader for busy familieseverywhere.
Each week we'll explore simpletools, uplifting stories, and
practical strategies to helpyour child learn emotional
(00:42):
regulation, resilience, andself-confidence, while giving
you a little more peace of mindtoo.
I'm so glad you're here.
My guest today is Craig Matson.
He's an organizationalresearcher who serves as a
professor of communication atCalvin University.
He's written several books andnumerous essays, often exploring
the communicational complexitiesof organizational life.
(01:03):
When he's not writing andreading and podcasting, he's
enjoying the natural world,hiking, running, and playing
driveway pickleball.
Craig lives with his right wifeRhoda in Grand Rapids, Michigan,
and their four adult childrenlive and study and work across
the Midwest.
Craig, thanks so much forjoining me today.
I'm looking forward to thisconversation.
SPEAKER_00 (01:23):
Me too.
I love the connection betweenour two projects, and I'm
excited to see what overlapemerges and what I can learn
too.
SPEAKER_01 (01:32):
Yeah.
Well, and as we were talkingoffline before we hit record, we
were exploring the differentways that like family life is
complex because we rely heavilyon digital tools to connect with
our kids.
If we've got adult kids, we arerelying even more heavily on
that.
But if we have kids at home, youknow, if we're traveling, if
(01:53):
there are other things going on,there's changes in practice that
we need to communicate, we arereally utilizing a variety of
modes of communication to stayconnected throughout the day.
Before we go deeper, Craig, canyou help our audience get
acquainted with the idea of amode of communication?
SPEAKER_00 (02:11):
Yes, I would be so happy to.
So I think of a mode as anapproach.
We could use a couple ofdifferent words.
We could talk about it as aposture.
I use that in my book quite abit.
It's a posture towardssomething.
But basically, it's a style oran approach to something.
So if you're thinking aboutsomething that your adult child,
(02:36):
like they've made a decisionrecently, I have four kids,
they're all young adults, so I'mthinking about this a lot.
If they've made a decisionrecently, yeah, your
relationship with them, yourapproach to them is going to be
quite a lot different than itwas when they were 10.
And so we're always thinkingabout modes and we're always
having to like switch our modes,switch our approaches based on
(03:00):
the ever-changing context ofjust being a person and being a
parent.
SPEAKER_01 (03:05):
Yeah.
Let's go even deeper into thatand talk through the modes that
you've come up with in yourresearch.
And again, for our listeners,we're we're translating this
organizational and businessresearch that Craig has done
around communication, and we'retranslating it into family life.
So initially, we're just goingto go through what his research
entails, and then we're going tomake the connection into
(03:26):
everyday family moments.
SPEAKER_00 (03:29):
Okay, let's do it.
So as I talked with Gen Z andmillennial working professionals
about the intensities of thepressures of life and work in
the early 2020s, they don't seemmuch less pressurized today, but
let's just say in the early2020s, we were feeling a lot of
things.
(03:49):
I noticed that they took sixdifferent approaches to these
pressures.
And I have a lens for the way Ilook at things because I study
communication.
I noticed that they often usedcommunication as a way to
approach just surviving andcoping and dealing with all
those pressures.
(04:10):
So what are those modes or thoseways of coping?
The first was some people reallylike to send things.
So if you have a lot of stuffcoming at you and you're feeling
a lot of pressure, maybe youshould write a 950-word email
and send it out, right?
So that I'm making fun of, but alot of people do use the mode of
(04:32):
sending stuff as a way to dealwith it.
You do, apparently.
SPEAKER_01 (04:35):
I have like I'm the soccer team manager for my
daughter's soccer team, and someof those emails I send, they are
anyway.
Yep, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (04:43):
I do not know how you could be a soccer team
coordinator without sending alot of stuff.
So that's something we've got toexplore further, Lindsay.
But yeah, so another mode wouldbe we need to talk.
So let's have a face-to-face orscreen-to-screen conversation,
but it needs to be more or lessa one-on-one.
Like, let's get into this, youand me, let's figure this out.
(05:07):
And so that might be with amanager in my research
participants' case, or it mightbe with a coworker.
But for us as parents, it mightbe like, I don't know what to do
with, you know, my kid rightnow.
I guess we need to take a walkand we need to talk this thing
out, or take a drive and havesome windshield time.
(05:27):
A third mode would be meaning.
So, meaning things is what Icalled it.
And this is a little bit of ameta idea, but it has to do with
like, what's the point?
Why, why are we doing this?
What's the purpose here?
What are our goals?
And what is the meaningfulnessor lack of meaningfulness in
(05:49):
this particular kind of work?
I did have research participantswho very this sort of surprised
me, you know, despite all thepressures and intensities, or
maybe because of them, theywould sort of pull back and say,
Yeah, why why am I doing this?
It also happened to be in themiddle of the great resignation
when a lot of people were askingthose very questions.
I didn't notice that at first,but gradually it really came
(06:12):
through.
But I think as parents, too,sometimes we set up a rule,
like, okay, no screens at thetable, which sounds like a great
rule, by the way, or, you know,no snacks in the back of the
minivan or whatever.
And at a certain point, yourkids mature into the question of
why is that a rule and how doesthat make sense?
(06:34):
And so, in that, that's a goodmode.
It can be a little hard whenyou're the parent, but it's a
good mode, and it helps you tosort of step back and ask some
vital questions about, yeah,like what is happening here and
what's all this about.
All right, you still still goodhere?
SPEAKER_01 (06:50):
Yeah, I'm loving this.
Yeah, these are great examples.
SPEAKER_00 (06:52):
All right, cool.
So the fourth mode would be thisis this maybe the strangest one,
but it's when you don't sayanything.
I just called it the uh thetacit mode, the unspoken mode.
And this is when you knowthings, maybe as a professional
or maybe as a parent, and you'renot exactly sure how to talk
(07:13):
about it, but you just know it'sthe case.
Sometimes I noticed that peoplewould retreat to that mode when
the pressure became intense.
They're like, I know this istrue, or I know this is how you
do this, or I know this iswhat's best in this situation,
even if I can't defend it or Ican't explain it.
And I think this mode is superimportant as a parent, too.
(07:34):
I mean, just down to simplethings like how to ride a bike.
Like, it is really hard toexplain to a kid how to ride a
bike.
You just have to kind of do itand run along beside him and
say, oh, pedal a little fasterand that'll help.
So that's like stuff you can'ttalk about exactly.
You just have to kind of know itand do it.
And then the fifth mode could becalled signaling things.
(07:57):
And this is sort of a less ismore mode approach to stress.
I saw a lot of people doing thiswhere you don't say outright
what's frustrating you, you kindof indicate it, you you signal
it.
So in the lives of workingprofessionals, this might be
something like quiet quitting,where you're sort of letting
(08:17):
your boss know that you're nothappy or you're not totally
invested, but you're also notlike sending them an email and
saying that.
And you know, kids, of course,have lots of ways of signaling
this.
And some of those come throughin our digital interactions with
our children, hence all thekerfluffles about punctuation,
like, dad, don't use periodslike that.
(08:38):
That is you're yelling at me orsomething like that.
So I'm like, oh, that'ssignaling something I wasn't
intending to signal.
And then the last mode, phew,we're finally there, is
advocacy.
So this is when you're trying toconvince somebody of something
or persuade them.
Sometimes it's yourself thatyou're trying to persuade, but
that's a super important mode inthe workplace.
(09:00):
And I think as far as parentinggoes, I'll something I wish I
had done better as a parentwould be to be a little bit more
intentional about helping mychildren to be advocates for
something that they care about,might be just advocating for
themselves.
So those are the approaches andthe postures that I noticed
among people.
(09:21):
And I'm super interested to hearwhat's resonating with you or
where we should go next.
SPEAKER_01 (09:26):
Yeah, no, I love that.
Thank you for going through eachof those.
You know, as I'm sit listening,I'm thinking of it both from
like a standpoint of familycommunication, like parent to
child, but then also theeffectual skills kids need in
order to make their way in theworld and having these be things
we teach our children.
(09:48):
So, like having the relationalskill set that entails all of
these, but then also being ableto communicate about it in a way
that allows our kids tocultivate this full range of
modes of communication.
SPEAKER_02 (10:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:02):
Because one of the things you said that really
struck me was the idea that likecommunication is a small but
shareable zone of action wherewe have important choices to
make.
Am I quoting that right?
SPEAKER_00 (10:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:17):
And so in that way, like parenting is full of those,
right?
A small but shareable zone ofaction where we have important
choices to make.
And being able to switch, youknow, around from all of these
different modes and utilize themeffectively or as effectively as
we can, right?
We're one of the things I loveis that you're like, we're not
gonna get it right most of thetime.
(10:39):
And also we're all overwhelmed.
So, like we're just starting thebaseline, that's a starting
place.
You've got it.
But one of the things that likeI'm curious about from your
perspective as both a parent anda professional is like you talk
a lot about how like knowingyour default mode is important,
right?
So, how as we're kind of goingthrough all of these, what are
(10:59):
some of the signals like that aparent might be able to tune
into if they're looking atparent-child conversation or
parent-child interaction, whatwould they maybe use as bearings
to figure out where theirdefault is?
SPEAKER_00 (11:15):
Yeah.
Oh, that's superb.
Okay, so let me try this outwith you and see if this works.
So pay attention to what makesyou mad.
I think that might be a signalof a mode you care about, or
that maybe you're a little stuckin.
So I can give an example, andthis time I'll start with the
parenting rather than theprofessional situations.
(11:38):
So I remember when our kids wereyoung and things were chaotic at
dinner.
I never thought our son wouldever sit in a chair.
I just thought he was going tostand on his chair until late
adulthood.
It was very chaotic, and I wouldcome out of the classroom where
I had been teaching or whatever.
My wife was coming from her joband we had things we wanted to
(11:59):
talk about.
We would usually set a timelimit where we'd say, okay, mom
and dad want to talk right nowfor about five minutes.
Okay, so if you all just eatyour food and we'll talk.
But that just didn't work veryoften.
It was a lovely idea that justwasn't really executable.
And so I usually got prettyfrustrated with this.
(12:20):
I can still remember that senseof like, ugh, I have something I
really want to say.
And I can't say it right nowbecause four other people are
talking.
And this feels like an importantthing.
And I was probably exaggeratinghow important it was, but it
felt important in the moment,right?
SPEAKER_02 (12:40):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:41):
And but the way I knew I was stuck, only in
retrospect, but the way I know Iwas stuck was that I could not
change my mode.
It had to be a one-on-oneconversation with my partner, or
it wasn't gonna be.
And that that was dumb, right?
Like if I had been able to openup the mode and say, well, let's
(13:03):
try this out and let's, youknow, sort of fold into what
other people are talking aboutor what other people experienced
that day, wow, that would havebeen a lot happier dinner table.
And we probably would havelaughed a lot more.
We did have some dinners likethat.
But so that's one example whereI just knew or I just know I was
stuck because it I felt squeezedin the moment.
(13:26):
I felt mad or frustrated.
And I was just being sort ofinflexible.
SPEAKER_01 (13:32):
Yeah, that's such a great example.
Thank you for sharing that.
And we're gonna get into theflexibility piece in just a
minute because I love that aboutyour work.
One of the things as you weretalking that was coming to mind
for me was just like I amprobably, I mean, in my soccer
mom, when I'm wearing my soccermom hat, I'm definitely the
sending mode, right?
(13:53):
But at home, I think I'mprobably more of an advocacy
person where I'm like trying toconvince my child of my way of
seeing things or why taking intoaccount a different perspective
on this could be supportive orthose kind of things.
And so I think that in momentswhen, you know, as we're texting
a lot now that she's like ateenager, so a lot of our
(14:14):
communication throughout theday, whether she's at school or
at a practice or something,she's texting.
And it's those are very short,right?
Generally.
And just to your point about theperiods, I'm making a full
sentence about stuff.
And you know, I'm getting back ayeah, and I'm like, you know,
it's kind of casual for me, butfor her, it's a very strong
(14:35):
positive response, right?
Like she's, you know, she'sreally it's landing for her.
So what you just suggested makesa lot of sense to me because I
find that if I'm not feelingunderstood, or I don't feel like
she fully grasped what I justcommunicated in a potentially
very long text, uh, which isanother one of my things I'm
(14:56):
working on.
But if I just get a shortresponse from her, I'm not sure
she's understood the full, youknow, or like she's convinced of
my perspective, or that I'veadvocated for this point of view
in an effective way.
So that's a good invitation forme to shift into a more, you
know, like maybe she's like it'smore tacit for her.
Like there's some unspokenthings and she's just like
(15:17):
acknowledging, but not gonnawrite three sentences in a text
about it, you know?
SPEAKER_00 (15:22):
Yes.
Yeah, I this these stories getall crowded together because
we're having these kind ofexchanges, it seems like in an
accelerated fashion, we're justhaving more and more of these
kinds of exchanges.
We have them with workcolleagues, we have them with
children, we have them withspouses.
(15:43):
When I first moved to GrandRapids, where I teach now at
Kelvin University, I had to comealone because we didn't yet have
a house.
And so I lived in somebody'sapartment for a few months, and
my spouse and I communicatedalmost solely electronically.
And it it was it was prettydifficult for me.
And I think a lot of it camedown to what you just named,
(16:06):
which is a sort of feltdisparity in the investment in a
particular mode ofcommunication.
So my wife hates to text andfinds it just like an activity
she does as briefly as possible.
And I, like you, it sounds like,tend to be a little more verbose
(16:27):
in my texting.
So that was something we had towork through because that her
sort of brief responses wouldsignal one thing to me, which
wasn't at all what she wasthinking and feeling.
And my long texts, I don't knowif they were well received
either, at least not in thesense that that I felt.
So I feel like we're navigatingthis in six different ways from
(16:47):
Sunday with colleagues,coworkers, clients, and with
parents and children andspouses.
And so, yeah, it's a wholething.
Flexibility super helps.
Helps a lot.
SPEAKER_01 (16:57):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and maybe signaling, maybethat was the one I should have
said was it like hers issignaling.
So I love that you brought thatin.
Let's go to flexibility becauseI think one of the things that I
am, I really like the way thatyou you talk about mode
switching, right?
Like being able to be agilewithin these.
So I might have a primarypreferred mode.
(17:18):
One of the things you advocatefor is like think about the mode
of the person that you'retalking to, as you just
illustrated with the story withyour wife, right?
Like your mode is this and hermode is this.
And so if your primary ordefault mode is not creating the
communication that's supportingforward movement, then like how
can there be some flexibility?
(17:38):
How can we put some flexibilityinto the mix to make it a little
more supportive of connection?
So, what are some of the keythings that you encourage people
to do when they are choosing toget creative or choosing to
stretch?
And feel free to share thatstory about the bookstore that
you've shared before because Ithink that's such a great
example.
SPEAKER_00 (17:59):
Well, I'll take your prompt then.
I think before I tell that quickstory, I I think your question
is a challenging one because Iknow when I need to switch
modes.
I feel it.
I'm stuck.
But how do we actually do thatis a thing that we're gonna need
to explore just a little bitmore.
And I think that's where thiskind of conversation begins to
(18:22):
shade into a kind of therapeuticexchange, because I think how
people figure out how to loosentheir grip on a particular mode
or a particular approachprobably varies by the person
significantly.
So I don't know how easy it willbe for me to generalize on that.
But I will tell you about a timewhen I realized I had to switch
(18:42):
modes.
SPEAKER_01 (18:42):
Yeah.
So let me can I just insert thisreal quick?
I think this is wheremindfulness is so key, right?
So I'm just gonna make ashameless plug for mindfulness
at this point, where like mybasic definition of mindfulness
is knowing what's going oninside of you, knowing what's
going on outside of you, andmaking a choice on purpose.
So being able to be reallypresent, right?
(19:03):
Like you described, like ifthere's some discomfort and you
just know it's not working, likebeing present with awareness, in
my opinion, is what canfacilitate that creativity,
right?
Like we see that all the timewith mindfulness, where there
are different pieces of asituation all kind of combining,
and mindfulness is what allowsus to like say, okay, all these
(19:25):
things can fit together.
I'm not sure how, but I knowI'll be able to figure it out
instead of saying, these don'twork, right?
So, anyway, let's I feel likeyour approach to the bookstore
is very mindful.
SPEAKER_00 (19:38):
Yeah, that's really helpful.
So I want to take that just alittle bit farther.
So that that plug formindfulness feels really basic
to this whole conversation.
I do think in some ways, like mywhole book is just like pay
attention.
SPEAKER_02 (19:51):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (19:52):
There's a lot going on.
And it's frustrating and it's alot and it's overwhelming.
But if you can pay attention, ifyou can, like you said, be aware
of what's going on inside you,what's going on around you, and
make deliberate choices, I thinkthat you're right.
I I feel like that is a hugelyimportant way to cope with
overwhelm.
It doesn't eliminate it, itdoesn't get rid of the
(20:12):
overwhelming conditions, but itdoes make them livable.
SPEAKER_01 (20:16):
Yeah, or like I don't know if even manageable,
but workable.
Right?
Like it gives you like a littleray of hope.
And and that's one of the thingsI really appreciate about your
work too, is that like you'renot saying if you do these
things, you're not gonna beoverwhelmed anymore, right?
You're just saying you're gonnabe able to work with whatever is
in front of you a little, youknow, with a little more skill
(20:38):
if you use this intentionalapproach.
And I think that that's that'sanother piece of the
mindfulness, because withmindfulness, we have this strong
practice of self-compassion,right?
And so I think inserting thatinto this conversation and
recognizing, like you said,everybody's digitally
overwhelmed, everybody's justtrying to figure it out.
(21:00):
Yeah, I'm there's nothing wrongwith me, I'm not broken, I'm not
an awful parent because I'm likereally struggling with this.
I'm not an awful parent becausemy kid is struggling with this.
This is just like a condition ofbeing human right now.
And then if we can just havethat as the baseline, the
creativity is easier, right?
Because we remove the judgment.
SPEAKER_00 (21:19):
Yes.
Oh man, I feel like I should betaking notes here.
This is really great.
I could, in a certain sense,say, I'm a terrible author
because in this book on digitaloverwhelm, I did not address
artificial intelligence much atall.
And it was just really startingto burst out out of the scene as
I was finishing the manuscript,right?
But what I'm choosing to do isto say, nobody's got AI figured
(21:43):
out right now.
And it would be presumptuous forme to say I do.
Maybe there's another book, youknow, five years down the road
or something.
But yeah, I do think that justbeing patient with yourself in
these conditions, or you, as yousaid, self-compassion, that's a
beautiful phrase.
Showing grace to yourself and tothe people around you, it's a
(22:03):
lot.
It's just a terrific lot.
So just recently, I uh reachedout to a bookstore like authors
do and said, Hey, could I comeand do a little talk?
I've got some friends who'd liketo hear, and I'd like to do a
talk at your fine bookstore.
And it happened to be a reallygreat bookstore, Schuler Books
in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
(22:24):
I encourage you to go there.
It's great.
And they said, sure, and youshould come on this date.
And so I invited a whole bunchof people just a day or so
before.
I was reading the fine print alittle more closely, and I
realized that they were puttingme at the front of the store,
right by the door, and it wasnot at all in their cute little,
(22:46):
they had like an auditorium atthe back where you could have a
gathering.
And I was like, oh no, this iscompletely different than I had
invited people to.
I can't do a talk here without amegaphone.
I this just feels ridiculous.
So I wrote to them and said,please, please, could I use that
space even for 20 minutes?
It would make a huge difference.
And they said that it was bookedotherwise and they just couldn't
(23:08):
do it.
So I went to my marketer,Andrea, and said, Oh my god, I'm
I feel really stuck here.
Like I feel most comfortabledoing a talk with, you know,
people who are moderatelyattentive in, you know, 10, 15,
20 people, that would be so easyfor me.
It would really be energizing.
(23:29):
I think they would enjoy it, butI can't do that here.
I'm stuck at a signing tableright by the door.
And so all these people aregoing to be, all these strangers
basically are going to bewalking by.
And she said, Yeah, that sucks.
That's right.
We got to do something else.
And so what we worked out wasessentially, what I don't think
we called it this in the moment,but essentially we just varied
(23:51):
our modes.
And we came up with a waterbottle sticker, we came up with
a bookmark with a QR code, werecorded a short video that gave
a talk and put that on the QRcode.
And then yeah, I recruited myadvertiser daughter to help.
And we stood at the door andtried to gauge people's
(24:14):
expressions as they camethrough.
If they were really resistant toconversation, like I might feel
sometimes coming to a bookstore,I'm just aft, I'm running an
errand.
Please leave me alone.
We would just say, Here's awater bottle sticker.
If they seemed a little moreinterested and they wanted to
say, Yeah, what's this about?
Then we would say, Well, here'sa bookmark.
There's a QR code on it.
(24:35):
And use the bookmark forwhatever you buy in the store
today, but that QR code has avideo attached.
And then some people wanted totalk.
And for them, we would reachover, grab a book, and say, Hey,
well, you know, like here's whatwe're here's what we're talking
about here, and maybe you shouldcheck this out.
And so it took a decent amountof energy in those two hours to
(24:56):
kind of switch, figure out whichmode is right, but also to just
have more than one mode on hand.
I wanted to do a unilateraltalk, and what I found myself in
was a situation where that justwas not appropriate.
And I'm grateful to my marketerfor helping me figure this out.
And it turned out to be a reallyfun afternoon.
(25:17):
So that's my cheerful story.
SPEAKER_01 (25:20):
Yeah.
I love again, like theflexibility of it, right?
And that's what you illustratewhen you share the story is like
the ability to adapt, right?
To the mode that the person infront of you is preferring or
that you're perceiving thatthey're preferring.
But then you're also adaptingyour own ability to connect,
right?
And I think that's where a lotof times as parents, let's maybe
(25:43):
shift gears a little bit here toteaching our kids how to
communicate effectively inmultiple ways.
I think that that's where, asparents, a lot of times we might
see our kid really great atcertain modes of communication,
and then really also seeopportunities for them to kind
of grow their range, right?
And to adopt or lean into someof these modes that aren't as
(26:07):
familiar to them or that aren'tas like just their defaults.
SPEAKER_00 (26:12):
Yeah.
Oh wow.
That's just bringing back somany memories of like exchanges
with my children, what I couldhave done, what I did do, and so
forth.
It is fun to remember thecomplexities of trying to
communicate in so many differentways and so rapidly in the flow
of life.
You know, everybody's doing somuch.
It seems to me, I'm gonna haveto ask for your help on this,
(26:33):
Lindsay, but it seems to me thatyou'll be able to discern what
your kids are good at.
Like some of them just will bereally talky, right?
Some of them want, they maybe toan exhausting extent, they want
to talk and they want to havethat ongoing dialogue from the
moment they hit the door afterschool until they hit their head
(26:55):
hits the pillow.
And then others are much lesswilling to talk, and in
different phases of life,they're less willing to talk.
We certainly had externalprocessors and internal
processors in our kids.
So, yeah, figuring out what thatis.
And then it's also seems to methat almost no child is like
instinctively good at sendingthings, like that's something we
(27:17):
have to like coach every singlechild in the world on.
When you get to the party, makesure you send me a text.
And when you're ready to go,make sure you say, you know.
So that's that's a whole otherthing, right?
So yeah, what how does thatsound to you?
It seems to me like we canfigure that out, like what
they're really good at, and thenoffer them some alternatives.
SPEAKER_01 (27:38):
Yeah, yeah, no, for sure.
And I think I I like the idea ofknowing there are gonna be some
that we kind of just naturallytrain on as parents, right?
We are training the send mode,you know, like you're you're
suggesting from a very earlyage.
We're pretty consistently askingfor that information.
And then I think too, justhonoring the feedback that we're
(28:01):
getting from them helps themfine-tune, right?
Like, and maybe this is this ispulling back to like the
parent-child perspective.
But the other day, my daughterwas feeling some tension around
an upcoming regatta.
She had it had been quite awhile since she had a race
because she just does that atschool.
So she just does it for severalmonths out of the year, hadn't
(28:22):
had a race in a while.
Their last race, they had had areally great race in the
preliminaries and then in thefinals, it hadn't gone the way
they wanted it to.
So she'd sat with that race foralmost a year, right?
So we're talking through likeall this tension she's feeling,
and we've been working throughit for a while and trying to see
like where and what and how.
And it was interesting because Iwas dropping her off at the
airport for this race that shewas going to, and again, in my
(28:45):
advocating, I'm like, justremember, and you, you know, I'm
trying to convince her to beconfident in herself, basically,
right?
And I'm like, here are all thereasons you can, and I stopped
and because she just was like,Mom, stop.
Like she was almost just at ather limit of hearing me.
And so she was just like, pleasestop.
(29:06):
And I was like, Okay, but I alsosensed in that moment like a
need for something, like you'resuggesting, right?
Like it was just a known sensethat like I needed to provide
something, but I wasn't surewhat it was.
And so I went to humor, which isone of the things that we I can
usually lighten things up in ourhouse if I can shift into humor.
I don't know which mode thatgoes into.
(29:27):
But I so I started using humor,and we'll tell funny stories or
make up stories about somethingthat's in front of us.
That's one of our like ways wediffuse tension.
And so I just started telling astory, and immediately she
lightens up.
There's this woman picking upthis random boarding pass off
the ground.
So we started just in a kindway, but making a story about
(29:48):
why she was picking up thisboarding pass and all of this.
What was telling in that momentwas that exactly like you
described, it was clear to mefrom her communication and her
manner that what I was trying toDo and the way I was trying to
get a message through that smallbut shareable zone where I have
important choices to make, likeI was not making the right
(30:08):
choice there, right?
But then when I shifted and Iwas not advocating as much
anymore, but I was justexplaining in a different way or
just lightening the moment,that's when we could connect
again.
And so in my mind, I think thathaving those types of moments
with our kids allows us to thenpresent them as learning
(30:29):
moments, right?
Like, oh, if I had that to doover, I could have just started
with the humor, right?
But then being able to have ameta moment with her and say,
okay, you remember the other daywhen we were doing that and I
went straight to telling you howyou should be confident and that
wasn't working, and then welightened it.
Like if we can haveself-awareness in those moments
and admit that maybe there aremoments we didn't handle things
(30:52):
as well as we could have, I feellike those are the like little
nuggets we can offer our kids aswe're encouraging them to
broaden their range in othersituations.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00 (31:02):
Oh yeah.
Yeah, that's great.
I think what you're doing inthat beautiful story is you're
also creating a little bit ofdistance between yourself and
your feelings.
And that's hard to do in themoment.
Like sometimes if you're feelingso your daughter is feeling
(31:26):
overwhelmed at the approach ofthis race, and you're feeling
the pressure to be a good momand to be a responsible parent,
there's just a lot of feelingsin the car.
Maybe also some frustration,some disappointments, a sense of
irritation.
And it's so easy in thosemoments to just kind of become
your feelings, like this is me.
(31:48):
But when you do that sort ofmeta talk, you both help
yourself to create a littledaylight between, okay, I'm
having a feeling like this rightnow, but it's not me.
And I think also it's kind ofamazing how it can help your
daughter do that as well.
And that is an emotional copingtool that will serve her
(32:10):
lifelong because we just oftendo have to, you know, be the
mountain and let the clouds offeeling circulate us like
they're there, but I am notthose clouds, you know.
So I think that's a gift thatyou can give your daughter.
I'm really interested in thistheory called relational frame
(32:32):
theory.
And a lot of it is focused onhow to help people through sort
of small verbal cues.
If your daughter says somethinglike, I am so sick of this, or
I'm so overwhelmed at this, orI'm so frustrated, even a small
(32:52):
change of phrasing, as you sayyou're having some feelings of
overwhelm right now, like evenjust slightly shifting it to
you're not that, but you'refeeling that or you're having
that, like those are small cuesI think we can give that make a
gradual difference.
SPEAKER_01 (33:11):
Yeah.
Oh, I love that.
Yeah, just like giving somedaylight to, like you said, and
I love the mountain with theclouds around it.
Those are all great, greatmetaphors.
And I think we'll circle back atsome point to that conversation,
right?
Because she goes and does therace and she did really well.
And so it was a successful timefor her.
(33:32):
And also from my mom'sstandpoint, like I've got to
help her manage this.
I can't send her off in thisway.
But really, what she just neededwas to go connect with her
friends and then like go do herrace, and she was gonna be fine.
Yeah.
So I think too, again, likeyou're saying, there's some
aspects of it that are maybe alittle easier to separate from
than others.
So while I appreciate thecompliment, I didn't do a full
(33:54):
separation from all of thefeelings.
You know what I mean?
As parents, sometimes that canbe so tricky.
But I love the idea of yeah, ofjust like helping them reframe
because I think that with herafterwards, as I actually heard
her talking to someone else whohad had a really rough race
after her.
So she did her, she did herraces, it was great.
(34:15):
She was talking to someone elsewho was in a boat and they had a
really rough race.
SPEAKER_02 (34:19):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:20):
And it was just fascinating and also beautiful
for me to hear her talk to thatperson and have kind of a full
circle moment with it.
SPEAKER_00 (34:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:30):
And so great.
SPEAKER_01 (34:32):
I I think that like in the conversations we have
with our kids, sometimes we haveto wait for the different modes
to kind of percolate, at leastfor me as a parent.
I kind of want it to be rightnow.
Like I want her to have all theskills right now.
I want to know she's got whatshe needs, you know.
But having a little bit of spaceand letting a situation kind of
(34:57):
emerge or move into its own,that allows some of those things
that the seeds we plant to cometo fruition later.
SPEAKER_02 (35:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (35:06):
But then I also think it creates a scenario
where if we have the distance,we can have the conversations
and say, if I had done thisdifferently, I should have
shifted the way I wascommunicating with you.
I should have been more flexiblebased on your needs.
Or like you've said in other uhcontent that I've listened to of
yours where you're like, hey,this is actually a face-to-face
conversation instead of a text.
(35:26):
Giving kids experience with itand then being able to refer
back to that experience.
SPEAKER_00 (35:32):
Uh yep.
SPEAKER_01 (35:33):
Seems like a good way to teach.
SPEAKER_00 (35:35):
I very much appreciate that.
I think I want to try that outactually with one of my kids.
Like thinking about exchangesI've had, like how good it would
be to go back and say, well,here's what I think was going on
there.
The other thing that reallystrikes me in your story is that
when we're having this kind ofexchange between a manager and
employee, or between a parentand a child, it sometimes feels
(35:59):
like the whole thing is just youand me, kid.
But really, what you're doing inthat moment has a kind of
potential to be for, in the caseof an employee, like the whole
organizational culture.
Or in the case of your family,like it has the potential to be
of help to other people'sfamilies.
(36:20):
And so I think that's anotherframe shift for us is to just
say, yeah, right now this feelslike I'm just irritated with
this particular child.
It's just me and her in theuniverse.
But no, we're always involved inthese larger networks of
relationship.
And for good and ill, but if wecan have that awareness, then
(36:42):
the way that you sort of gavespace to your daughter enabled
her to kind of give space ormaybe just compassion to
somebody else later.
And that somehow tracks back toyou, which is kind of amazing
and wonderful.
SPEAKER_01 (36:54):
And her coach, too.
I mean, to be sure, she reliedheavily.
And I think that's where you'retalking about community or like
realizing it's not just you.
One of the things coming to mindfor me is the idea of like your
village, right?
So, like, maybe some of thesemodes are not modes that are
like your strong suit as aparent.
Maybe like if you have aco-parent, you're you know, if
you're married and you're ableto like kind of tag team some of
(37:15):
the modes, maybe that worksgreat.
But also we have these villagesof people that support our kids,
right?
And so they can find the thedifferent connections like out
of our space.
And so that pressure you'resaying, just you and me in this
moment, and it has to getfigured out.
Sometimes, if we can ease offand add a little daylight, we
(37:38):
recognize that maybe there is asupport person in place for them
who has the wisdom andexperience to say, hey, it's
been a long time, we're notgonna make a big deal out of
this, you're gonna race again,it's gonna be fine.
Don't worry about it.
Like, I've got confidence inyou, like my confidence in her
rowing.
I have confidence in her, but Idon't have the experience to
kind of back it up.
(37:58):
Do you know what I'm saying?
But if a coach says that, youknow, if like you're at church,
somebody at church says that, orif you're just in a different
setting and someone else cankind of like shore up your kid,
I feel like noticing and helpingthem appreciate those modes that
they're able to engage with inother places and with other
people is also like a key partof it.
SPEAKER_00 (38:20):
Yeah, thanks.
That there's a whole socialvision there.
That's really great.
I sometimes feel frustrated bythe work of writing in a book
because I feel two things at thesame time.
I feel like I want to addressthe reader in an almost intimate
fashion.
There's something quite intimateabout reading.
But then there's also this senseof like, well, it's, I don't
(38:42):
know who that person is.
I don't know what their life islike.
And so I'm also addressingcommunities, I'm addressing
neighborhoods, I'm addressingwhole gaggles of people.
And so I think just similarly,when we're in a parental
relationship, I thinkrecognizing that this is
participating in a larger set ofconversations can actually take
(39:05):
some pressure off you.
Just like, yeah, my daughter haspeople besides me.
I'm amazing, but she's got otherpeople.
And I'm gonna trust in them abit.
SPEAKER_01 (39:16):
Yeah.
Well, and then just to bring itfull circle, I have so much
gratitude for the work thatyou've done in compiling these
ideas and presenting thisresearch and offering all of us
this vision of how digitalflexibility can support us as
individuals, in families, incommunity.
And so thank you for your workand for sharing the conversation
(39:38):
today.
SPEAKER_00 (39:39):
You're most welcome.
You're most welcome.
I've really enjoyed this talk.
It's been a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_01 (39:43):
Talk to people about where they can find you, how
they can connect with the book.
SPEAKER_00 (39:49):
The shortest distance between these people
and the book, I'm afraid, wouldbe something like Amazon.
SPEAKER_02 (39:54):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (39:55):
Digital Overwhelm, Craig Mats, and you'll see it
right away.
If you'd like, if that feelslike I want a little bit of a
longer journey there, I'm notsure I want to buy this book,
then stop by my website.
It's just called themodeswitch.com.
And you can see some, you know,I've got a bi-weekly newsletter
and I podcast with a team ofpeople who are trying to work
(40:17):
through some of these issues inwork culture.
So stop by themodeswitch.com.
That might be just like a goodnext step.
But of course, I'd be delightedif people would engage the book
as thoughtfully as you have,Lindsay.
These kinds of conversations arereally life-giving and they sort
of extend the wisdom and insightthat I was hoping for.
So themoat switch.com.
SPEAKER_01 (40:37):
Great.
And you'll like guaranteed toget a few laughs.
I mean, I was, yeah, out of thegate just laughing when you were
talking about like how textingcertain phrases is like
aggressive.
I was like, oh yeah, I do that.
SPEAKER_02 (40:51):
Lots of wisdom there.
SPEAKER_01 (40:53):
Well, thank you again, Craig.
This has been lovely, and Iappreciate you coming on today.
Thanks for listening to TheStress Nanny.
If you found today's episodehelpful, be sure to share it
with a friend who could use alittle extra calm in their week.
And if you have a minute, I'dlove for you to leave a review.
It helps other parents find theshow and join us on this
journey.
For more tools and support, headover to www.thestressnanny.com.
(41:18):
Remember, you don't have to dostress alone.
Together, we can raise kids whoknow how to navigate life with
confidence and ease.
Until next time, take a deepbreath and give yourselves some
grace.
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