November 6, 2025 • 35 mins
One tall flower in a crowded field changes everything. Dr. Douglas Garland joins us to unpack Tall Poppy Syndrome—the ancient metaphor with very modern consequences—and gives parents a working language for envy, jealousy, pride, and the status games kids navigate every day. We dig into how cultures reward sameness or celebrate standouts, why the U.S. produces both more tall poppies and people who cut them down, and how social media keeps comparison always on.
We draw sharp lines between helpful envy that fuels emulation and growth, and the envy that sparks gossip, pile-ons, and cutting others down. Doug shares why anger and sloth intensify cutting in fast-result cultures, and how humility and kindness act as counterweights. He offers a candid story from his own career of being cut down at the top, then using that moment to reset, refocus, and build something larger—an approach families can model when a child’s wins trigger peer backlash.
Parents get a clear playbook: look for context before reacting, map power differences, and teach kids to read the field—family, classroom, team, and community. We cover practical scripts to help a child hold their ground without drifting into hubris, steps to distinguish bullying from status pressure, and a nuanced look at gender dynamics that shape how boys and girls experience and report bullying behavior.
Listen for a primer on Tall Poppy Syndrome and how to respond to it. For more on Doug's work visit his website or find him on Instagram.
Lindsay Miller is a distinguished kids mindfulness coach, mindfulness educator and host of The Stress Nanny Podcast. She is known for her suitcase tricks and playful laugh. When she's not cheering on her daughter or rollerblading on local trails with her husband, you can find her using her 20+ years of child development study and mindfulness certification to dream up new ways to get kids excited about deep breathing. Having been featured on numerous podcasts, platforms and publications, Lindsay’s words of wisdom are high impact and leave a lasting impression wherever she goes.
To sign up for Lindsay's "Calm & Collected" Newsletter click here.
To review the podcast click here.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:21):
Welcome to the Stress Nanny, the podcast where
we take the overwhelm out ofparenting and help kids and
parents build calm, confidence,and connection.
I'm your host, Lindsay Miller,kids' mindfulness coach and
cheerleader for busy familieseverywhere.
Each week we'll explore simpletools, uplifting stories, and
practical strategies to helpyour child learn emotional
(00:42):
regulation, resilience, andself-confidence, while giving
you a little more peace of mindtoo.
I'm so glad you're here.
Douglas Garland, MD, practicedorthopedic surgery for 37 years
in Southern California.
Dr.
Garland was a clinical professorof orthopedics at the University
of Southern California, where heauthored over 100 peer-reviewed
(01:04):
scientific articles.
With over 600 citations, theTallpoppy Syndrome book that he
wrote is the most comprehensivebook on the subject.
The Tallpoppy syndrome is ahuman condition that has been
present in every society fromthe beginning of time.
It explains why we seek fairnessand justify our actions by
cutting others down.
Doug Garland has been studyingthe Tallpoppy phenomenon for
(01:27):
over 10 years after heexperienced it firsthand in his
own career.
His work brings awareness andclarity to an unknown and
under-recognized, oftenmisunderstood human condition.
Doug, thank you so much forjoining me today.
I'm so excited for thisconversation.
SPEAKER_01 (01:41):
It's my pleasure to be here.
I'd love to talk about myfavorite subject.
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
So we're going to get right into it.
We're going to talk about tallpoppy syndrome today.
But before we do, it's importantto kind of determine the
difference between some of theseemotions that maybe are a little
uncomfortable for us to sitwith.
So let's start out with envy andjealousy.
Can you talk us through thoseemotions, the differences, kind
of what distinct characteristicsthey have?
SPEAKER_01 (02:07):
So I think we need to do the definition first
before we get into everythingelse.
SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:13):
So the de definition of the tall poppy syndrome is
it's a metaphor looking at apoppy field and you see one
poppy taller than the rest.
And human nature is to want tocut that poppy down so that
everybody's equal.
It helps build your ownself-esteem if you're not
(02:35):
surrounded by a tall poppy inmany, many instances.
So that's the original metaphor,which was described in ancient
Greece, and then it was modifiedin ancient Rome to include the
poppy metaphor.
The original description, theconcept was with wheat, and then
Rome, the Roman definition thenbecame the tall poppy.
(02:59):
And I would I look from thatexperience once I understood the
concept, then I looked throughall civilizations and through
all time periods, and I was ableto find it almost in every
country and every time period.
And they all have their ownsayings.
(03:19):
For example, in Holland, it isthe tall tree captures all the
wind.
And Japan, it's the tall nailgets pounded down.
So cultures are aware of it.
They have a different meaning.
Actually, the Nordic countrieshave a law of Jante, J-A-N-T-E,
and it's 10 rules of how not togrow tall.
(03:40):
So they're just the opposite ofa lot of countries.
They they try to prevent one togive habits not to stick out in
society so that you won't getcut down.
So it's prevalent.
And the least prevalent area isAmerica.
And my original premises when Iwrote the book was it must be
(04:01):
our individualism that preventedAmerica from having or knowing
about the tall poppy syndrome.
And by the time I had writtenthe book, which took over five
years, my conclusion was it'smore prevalent in America
because of our individualism andbecause of our meritocracy.
So that we don't know about it,but I see it every day.
(04:22):
So that's the concept.
Now, the second, the next thingI had to do was understand it.
And then I had to try and fit itinto our particular culture.
So the Australian culture, theywere founded essentially as a
colony from England, just likewe were, but they were a penal
(04:43):
colony, and in the penal system,everybody's equal.
And that has continuedthroughout their history.
So they're a very egalitariansociety, meaning everybody are
relatively equal.
And they, if you do grow tall,which they don't have a lot of
tall poppies compared toAmerica, then there is a severe
(05:03):
tendency to want to cut themdown.
And that particular problem isdriven by envy.
Envy is my favorite emotion, andI think an underrated emotion
because envy is always on.
So as soon as I looked at youwhen we opened up today, I
looked to see your hair and whatyou're wearing and your facial
(05:25):
expressions and things.
So we're already makingjudgments through comparison.
And of course, envy is covetingwhat someone else has, whether
it's your looks, your money,whatever.
And in the age of the internet,that's what I call the currency
of the internet is as soon asyou turn the screen on, envy's
(05:46):
on.
And so much of the internet isdriven by selfies.
So I'm out having a good time,and you're sitting at home
reading or don't have money togo out.
So whatever your problem is, youhave low self-esteem.
So the whole concept of the tallpoppy syndrome in Australia and
(06:06):
most of the otherEnglish-speaking countries is
not prevalent, but Canada andEngland are both aware and use
the term, but it's just not asprevalent.
And as an Australia, then it's ameans of cutting someone down
and keeping everybody equal.
But in doing so, you elevateyour own your own self-esteem.
(06:28):
So the first thing to realizeabout an emotion is it's really
a functional state.
It's what your mind, your mindcontrols your emotion.
And Aristotle defined good andbad envy.
Good envy is emulation.
So I see you, I think you'reattractive, I want to dress like
(06:48):
you, you're smart, I want tolearn your habits.
I want to emulate you.
That's good envy.
And bad envy is the syndrome andwhat I consider the dark
emotions.
And the dark emotions for me arethe seven deadly sins, which is
how I remember the darkemotions.
So in studying Australia, it'svery simple to understand their
(07:11):
culture.
And they cut somebody down, butin their madness about doing it,
they feel justified in cuttingsomebody down because that
somebody lacks deservingness tobe a tall poppy.
They probably did something thatthe cutter didn't agree with.
So in America, I had to changeall that because we have so many
(07:34):
tall poppies.
The movie industry, the businessindustry, the sports industry,
the Hollywood industry.
So we have way more tall poppiesthan any country in the world
that I looked at.
And why do we cut tall poppiesdown?
Well, we have the Australianconcept of bad envy, but we also
(07:56):
have more anger in America.
And we have more anger than mostcountries.
And anger is also a good and abad emotion.
Good anger would make you focus.
Say you're a ball player andsomebody dribbled by you.
Instead of tripping them, whichwould be bad anger, you would do
more work, your more footwork,get in better shape, try to
(08:18):
improve yourself so that theycan't do that.
But we're such an immediatesociety right now at this time
that we want a good fast result.
And a fast result is alwayscutting somebody down.
And the third dark emotion thatI see in America is sloth, which
is laziness.
(08:39):
I'm 79, so I grew up in theearly 60s, and the STEM in high
school and even in junior highwas what's great.
And the emphasis was verydifferent in America from what
it is today.
And so we had less bad envy, Ithink, when I grew up.
(08:59):
It's definitely there, andbullying is definitely there,
but not to the degree that I seeit now.
I blame a lot of it on theinternet and our society.
But anyway, that's three darkemotions that we talk about
that's found in the cutter.
And what about the tall poppy?
Well, the tall poppy usually isgoing to do what egregious is
(09:21):
one of my favorite terms.
So egregious actions, egregious,the most common egregious action
is pride or hubris.
The tall poppy gets too big fortheir britches.
And the public feels justifiedin cutting them down.
And usually if there's adifference in income or societal
(09:41):
level and stuff, you can't cut atall poppy down.
It has to be a mass.
So if you see Brad Pitt, I can'tcut Brad Pitt down.
So it's going to take somepublic reaction to do it.
So it's usually pride is numberone, greed is number two, and
lust is number three.
Those are six of the sevenso-called deadly sins in
(10:04):
Christianity.
The only one we leave out isgluttony, and that's not part of
the tall poppy syndrome, but themnemonic or is something to help
you remember, it's the sevendeadly sins.
And of course, everybody's goingto want to know how do we cure
the tall poppy syndrome?
Well, it's to identify the bademotion and to look for the
(10:27):
corresponding virtue.
So envy is the virtue, thecounter to envy is kindness.
And of course, the virtue forpride or hubris is humility.
So that eventually becomes atreatment.
So we need to discuss the otheremotion, which people use
interchangeably, but it's not aninterchangeable emotion, is
(10:49):
jealousy.
Coveting is wanting somethingthat somebody has that you
don't.
That's going on daily.
Jealousy is something that youhave and you're losing.
And it usually involves threepeople.
So jealousy is relativelyuncommon, where envy is as
common as a common cold.
(11:10):
And jealousy is a dark emotion,but as far as a big cause of the
tall poppy syndrome, it's in thelittle league.
And so it's nice to well, it'snice to differentiate between
that because most people thatare doing the cut cutting are
coveting.
(11:39):
And it's three, and it usuallyinvolves three people.
So that's how you remember whatjealousy is.
And cutting down somebody isusually because they have
something you don't.
So the whole drug world isreally about money and habiting.
They're in a lower escalon ofsociety, and they feel they
(12:02):
can't have what everybody elsehas.
So what do they do?
They do the shortcut and dodrugs.
So it's pervasive in every levelof our society, depending on
what cultural aspect you're in.
The other thing that I need tohelp, and I'll then let you ask
me questions that would be ofyour interest to you and your
listeners.
(12:22):
Most of the cutting doesn'tinvolve tall poppies.
Since I feel envy is soprevalent in our society, I had
to reconcile that the cuttingwasn't happening to tall
poppies, that it was happeningin our peer groups.
So it happens in your family, ithappens immediately in your
family, what I call familialenvy.
(12:43):
So in my family, we had sevenkids.
My mother had her black book.
We got to have a birthday partyonly when we were 10, and we
only got to spend$50.
If we wanted five kids, we got$50.
If we want 10 kids, we got$50.
But she tried to keep everybodythe same in our family so that
everybody was equal.
(13:04):
And many, many families do thesame thing.
And then you get into school andthen the competition starts, and
you get into high school, andthere's more competition and
more bad envy.
And then, of course, college,worse, and then in the workplace
(13:27):
and climbing so-called climbingthe ladder of success, more
competition, more cutting.
So I felt that the what I nowlabel the private or
peer-to-peer, the tribal tallpoppy syndrome is more prominent
than the so-called public, whatI now call the public tallpoppy
syndrome.
It's what the originaldescription of the metaphor was.
(13:51):
So once again, you only can cutin your own tribe.
You know, you don't have powerto cut somebody outside of your
tribe.
I can't cut Brad Pritt down, butif he does something really,
really dumb, then throughsociety, you can cut him down to
(14:13):
his size.
So that's kind of how I workthrough things, the etiology of
the tall poppy syndrome, andthat it's and the whole book is
a self-help book.
Because if you understand thesyndrome and the emotions that
are involved either in you inthe cutter or the cutie, then
you understand yourself betterbecause you have your own bias
(14:35):
and your own issues.
So as you understand what'shappening in the world and your
relationship to it, then youunderstand yourself better and
how you're actually involved inthe family.
I mean, once I tell people aboutit, they go, Oh, yeah, I
remember growing up and theyrelate some family episodes.
So it makes you become moreaware of yourself.
(14:58):
And so in the end, it's kind ofa self-help book, but it's not
how I intended it to be.
I wanted to, first of all,introduce the syndrome to
America.
And you can't, you know, it'slike going to a meeting and you
get cut down and you don't knowit was a tall poppy syndrome,
and you walk out and you go,What just happened?
And so if you don't understandwhat just happened, you can't
(15:22):
figure out if it was your faultor if the other people were off
base.
So it's really a method to helpnot only understand what's going
on about you in the world, inyour tribe, but also in your own
head.
Yeah.
And I can tell you, I was cutdown.
So what happened, I justbriefly, because I've already
(15:44):
dominated the thing.
I was an academic orthopaedicsurgeon in LA.
I ran a large spinal cord injuryunit, one of the largest in the
country and the world, 100 beds.
Wow.
And I had gone to a meeting, Iwas to go to Australia.
They have six units inAustralia.
I was to go to Australia aspresident of the American Spinal
(16:06):
Injury Association at that time.
And I was to go to Australia andvisit each center for a week.
And I had gone to a national,international medic spinal cord
meeting and met with the personwho I was setting it up with.
When I got back to my office inLA, I had a note on my office
(16:26):
that I had been moved down fromthe great grand suite with the
corner window and the big roomand down to a little cubby hole.
And I went home and told mywife, and she said, they've
moved your cheese, which was apopular book about that time,
which is to a certain extent alittle bit like the tall poppy
(16:47):
syndrome.
And she said, you know thatthey're telling you that your
time has ended and it's time tomove on.
And fortunately, I didn't haveher emotional intelligence
because I would have gone backthe next day and immediately
become angry and sought revengeto see who was behind moving my
(17:07):
office and got in a pissingcontest with somebody to see who
would win.
And my wife was smart enough tofigure all that out.
So the next day I went in after30 years and I was a full
professor of orthopedic surgery.
I threw all my accolades off thewall into a big green garbage,
plastic garbage can, all mylectures, everything, put my key
(17:31):
on the desk and walked out.
And I called Australia and toldthem I wasn't coming.
And they said, Why aren't youcoming?
And I told them what happened.
And they said, Well, you've beentall poppied.
So that was my introduction.
But fortunately for my wife andthen for Australia, it took them
about five minutes to finallyget it.
(17:51):
Let me wrap my arms around whatactually happened, that I
understood what was going on,and then confirmed what my wife
had told me.
And I mean, I was prettyprominent.
I probably could have won everyevery battle, but what was the
point?
My wife was right.
They they had moved on, and itwas a good time for me to move
on.
Turned out to be the best thingthat ever happened.
(18:13):
I had a big private practice Iconcentrated on.
I became head of the jointservice at that hospital.
We computerized everything andmade it a very important center
in LA.
And I wrote the book.
So when you have an obstacle,it's best for you to find some
positive way to work yourselfaround it.
Yeah, and I have a chapter inthe book of my tall poppies,
(18:35):
what I consider it takes to be atall poppy.
And all of the tall poppies hadbeen tall poppy.
Most of them were cut down andthey all grew from it.
Probably figure it took somesoul searching and and then they
come back a better person.
So just be if you do get caughttall poppy, frequently it's not
(18:55):
your fault.
And you should if it is yourfault, that's why if I mean you
don't get the promotion, youshouldn't trut the person down
who got the promotion.
You should figure out why theygot their promotion and grow
from it yourself.
Maybe maybe they are a betterperson than you are.
So you need to self-reflect andevaluate the situation.
SPEAKER_00 (19:19):
I think it is an invitation, is what I'm hearing
you say.
SPEAKER_01 (19:22):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (19:22):
Yeah.
Well, thanks for sharing thatstory.
That was a poignant way for youto come across the concept.
And then I appreciated the wayyou described it in terms of
both the person who is growingand is the tall poppy, and then
the person who has or feels theinclination to chop that tall
poppy down.
This is especially resonant tome when it comes to kids.
(19:45):
And you mentioned a little bitabout the difference between
tall poppy syndrome andbullying.
But I'm wondering if you couldtake us through like a simple
scenario where, say, a child is,you know, the kids in its
school, perhaps not bullying,but trying to keep that child
kind of small or quiet, or, youknow, not letting that child
(20:05):
flourish in the way that theycould.
Maybe they're, like you'resaying, their peer group is can
see and feel maybe intimidatedand envious of the child, and so
is trying to keep them fromgrowing to their potential.
What kind of things would coulda parent do to help a child
understand tallpoppy syndromeand then work with that
scenario?
SPEAKER_01 (20:23):
Well, that's the reason I emphasize the dark
emotions and and what'shappening and the importance of
envy.
I'm just telling you, it is soprevalent and it's prevalent in
your families, and it'simportant for the parents to
know.
And so if they they understandthe tallpoppy syndrome, they can
tell it to your kid.
If if they just have, if they ifyou are if if you are smart and
(20:46):
the other kids are envious ofyou, and you're right, you
people always think of the two,both bowling and tall poppy,
frequently as being anindividual thing, but frequently
it is a group.
So a tall poppy's tall becausehe's taller than the group.
So that tells you that conceptright there, and they are going
to be hit from all sides.
(21:09):
And it's important to identifythe behavior of the other
people.
One, it's important tounderstand the status of the
other people.
In the grade school system inAmerica, it's changing
dramatically now from when Igrew up because we were all we
were all equal at that time.
You know, the society now islayered.
(21:31):
There's so many layers, economiclayers and social layers.
I mean, when when I grew up, thebanker's kid was in the school,
the farmer's kid was in theschool, you know, every layer of
our little society was all inthe same place.
And frequently the bullying isalways a power difference.
(21:53):
There's always a difference, andyou have to under the first
thing you have to do isunderstand that.
And you have to understand thevarious layers of bullying, and
frequently it is a problem.
And you have to help your childbecause your child most likely
does have low self-esteem, andthat's the reason they're pick
(22:14):
picking on them.
Kids understand low self-esteem,and they understand some child
that has lower self-esteem, andthat gives them the power over
that child.
So the first thing the parentshave to do is understand their
children, and especially if theyhave lower self self-esteem, and
(22:35):
they have to help the childbuild that self-esteem up.
That's more on the bullyingside, but also the the cutter.
We're talking about the somebodybeing cut down, but that also
works if the child has lowself-esteem.
They need to build that up sothat the child itself is not the
bully or something trying to cutsomebody down.
(22:57):
Both involve low self-esteem.
The kid that's being bullied andthe kid that's cutting down
people.
So the parents need to identifythat and they need to do what we
call in medicine a socialhistory.
They need to question the childabout the situation and try and
(23:17):
understand the situation itselfso that if it is intellectual,
they can tell their child thatnot to give them pride or
hubris, but that they aresmarter and the other kids are
envious of them and that theyjust want to be like them.
And just the identification, theparent to the child is so
(23:39):
important because when you'renot in the battle, you
understand the field, just likethat's why General Stand on the
Hill.
And that's why my wifeunderstood it.
And I didn't, because she didn'thave any dogs in the fight.
She was completely neutral towhat was happening.
So the parents have thepossibility of having that
(24:00):
neutrality and looking ateverything.
But I can tell you what happensto many, many parents, and this
is really important.
They become angry.
And whenever you get angry,which is what happens right now
in America with our mobs and ourmovements and everything going
on, the more angry you get, themore injustice you see.
(24:22):
So you start seeing fakeinjustice, which is not there,
and that's related to the amountof anger that's happened.
So you can have a simple episodeon the schoolyard, which happens
every day.
And if you tell your parentssomebody beat me up or
something, and they don't reallydig into it, especially when you
(24:43):
had a parent like my dad who wasvery quick to temper and he gets
mad right away and he lets it gothis time, he works through it,
but then it happens again, andthen he just explodes.
He sees more injustice when thechild is fearful and he's not
telling the truth to even startwith.
So the parent has to always makesure he understands the
(25:08):
situation completely, to includegoing to a teacher or to
somebody else's family ortalking to other peers to find
out what's really going on.
Kids know the whole field.
Kids know what's going on.
So your best chance of findingthe truth is finding some of the
kids' peers and ask them what'sreally going on in school if
(25:31):
you're friendly.
My dad had a bad temper, but hehad a wonderful personality, and
he got along well with all ourkids.
I mean, he played baseball andfootball and everything.
So if there was ever a problem,he always asked other kids what
was going on.
He's very smart in getting atthe bottom of the emotions that
was happening within our peergroups.
(25:53):
And that's what the parents haveto do too.
And then they have to supportthe child in whatever they
figure out's going on.
But you you need that impartialperson to provide support, just
like my wife did.
Or you'll go down the wrongpath.
The parents will go down thewrong path, and the child will
go down the wrong path.
It's very easy to go down thewrong path.
SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
So having a balanced perspective because with the
tall poppy syndrome, like you'retalking about, the child who is
tending toward being a tallpoppy, we can lead them further
into a sense of pride, or we cankind of poison their perspective
on their growth if we frame itin a way that promotes pride
instead of just promotingself-development or promotes a
(26:37):
sense of calm and confidentmoving forward.
SPEAKER_01 (26:40):
Yeah, exactly.
If my wife hadn't had thecorrect appreciation of my
situation, I mean, if she wouldhave maybe been an automatic
loving wife and just supportedme, it would have made my that's
what I'm telling you.
Then you'd drive your madnessworse.
And the more mad you get, themore injustice you see.
In the end, the people up therewere kind of doing it.
(27:02):
I know exactly who did it, Iknow everything about it, but
they were just playing gameswith my head, you know.
I was it was just fun, you know,it was a fun thing.
I I turned the table on them.
I didn't know I was doing it.
But then when I resigned, theypeople knew what happened.
I mean, it was like kids inschool, people knew what
happened, and of course, thosetwo people look like idiots
(27:24):
because they lost one of theirmost prominent physicians.
Yeah, nobody, and I didn't sayanything to anybody, I just
walked out.
It's like, you guys take care ofthe mess you've created.
I'm out of here.
So parents need not shoot first,they they need to do their
homework as well.
And if your child is to blameand he has a potential pride
problem and you reinforce that,you just in medicine we have a
(27:48):
law called Frank's Law.
It comes from Frankenstein.
Whoever creates the monster hasto take care of the monster.
So if you reinforce that pridein a child, you've just created
a monster and you're going tohave a lot more problems
controlling that child now thanif you had given him for him,
her the right, right perception.
SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
I think it it's wise advice to, like you said, both
in terms of a general, but alsoin terms of poppies, right?
See the field, see the wholefield, kind of understand what's
going on and where your childis, and taking it in context.
And one of the reasons I likethis theory is because one of
the ways I teach kids aboutmindfulness and families in
(28:27):
general about mindfulness istalking about what's going on
inside of you, what's going onoutside of you, and then making
a choice on purpose.
And so I think this analogyplays really well into that as a
metaphor because it gives us acontext, right, for those
interactions.
SPEAKER_01 (28:40):
Yes, you need the context.
SPEAKER_00 (28:42):
Where am I?
Where am I in this field ofpoppies right now, whether it's
my immediate field in my family,whether it's my field at school,
whether it's on my sports team,whether it's in the larger
community, like where am I at?
And how can I orient myselfbased on this paradigm?
SPEAKER_01 (28:57):
You're right.
You're the dynamic is alwayschanging, but you're in the same
big field.
But within that field, thedynamic changes.
And that's why, as a parent, youneed to understand, but you need
to understand to help your childunderstand.
And let me let me tell you areally important study out of
Australia, because I grew upwith five brothers and one
(29:19):
sister.
So it was a very male-dominatedchildhood.
And then I had two daughters andI was ill-prepared because most
of the things you learn in lifecomes from observation, comes
from envy, from not necessarilycoveting, but as soon as you
turn on that comparison emotion.
So, you know, I learned by justobserving what my dad did.
(29:40):
And then when I had twodaughters, everything was turned
upside down.
And I'm telling you, it's well,but women think differently.
I mean, that's why that book,Men Are From Mars and Women Are
From Venus, whatever it was backin the 90s.
But Australia did, I think, areally wonderful study.
It was a studying on bullies andHigh school athletes because in
(30:02):
schools have a tendency to likesports and elevate the
quarterback and things.
They just don't do academia forwhatever reason.
But anyway, they did a study onbullying and elite athletes in
high school between men andwomen.
And of the male athletes, noneof them said they were bullied.
(30:24):
And every female athlete saidshe was bullied.
And that's a huge importantthing to always understand.
The in a with six boys in myfamily, there was a lot of
bullying within my family andthe familial envy.
And in grade school, I wentthrough a lot of bullying and I
saw a lot of bullying, and mybrothers were all bullied.
(30:47):
And to a certain extent, thereis a rite of passage in the mail
for bullying.
And we think that's becoming aman, so to speak, or the
so-called old-fashioned ruggedindividualism of an American
malehood.
And young girls don't have that,they have other issues.
And so that's why even theinterpretation, that's why it's
(31:10):
so important to reallyunderstand what your child's
going through, because theirbias and interpretation might be
not what's really happening.
So the boys said it didn'thappen because it happened all
the time.
So they didn't think it washappening.
They just thought, well, that'sthe way things are in our in our
school.
And the girls had a completelythe same high school, and the
(31:31):
girls had a completely differentconcept of what was happening to
them.
And it's another reason ithappens because it didn't, the
study didn't say, but I thinkit's a very important part.
It is the sexism and the gender,and it could be the male on
female that is a part of thatcomponent of the bullying on
(31:54):
that the females areexperiencing.
So parenting is tough andgetting to the bottom and
understanding before you do anyaction is hugely, hugely
important.
SPEAKER_00 (32:05):
Yeah, for sure.
Thank you for sharing that.
Well, and then again, as part ofthat effort, talk to people
about where they can find yourbook.
Like if you're interested inlearning more about Tall Poppy
syndrome and how it's kind ofcome about through the ages and
then how it applies currently inyour life, how to teach it to
your kids.
Doug's book can be a greatresource for you for that.
SPEAKER_01 (32:24):
I think so.
It's a good read.
It helps you understand, helpsyou understand you even your
family.
I mean, I don't know if ithelped my family, but they they
all are very aware of the tallpoppy syndrome right now.
I can tell you that.
SPEAKER_00 (32:38):
I bet where can people find the book, Doug?
SPEAKER_01 (32:41):
So I have two websites.
The book website is just myname, Doug D-O-U-G, G-A-R-L-N-D,
2Gs.com.
That's a working website, and mybook comes up and and how to
order it from Amazon and things.
And actually, the reviews on itare very good.
(33:02):
So if you have any questions,look at a few of the reviews.
But I have a second website thatI do, like the podcast will be
on that, my blogging's on that.
Like I did Will Smith when hewas tallpoppy at the Academy
Awards.
And that's an animatedexplanation.
(33:22):
It's really wonderful.
But anyway, that particular blogsite is tallpoppy syndrome one
word.org.
And I get to the other is moreserious.
And actually, I have scientificarticles on that.
I went into medicine, which isin denial.
Professionalists, mostprofessions say they don't have
the tallpoppy syndrome, but inessence, they're the worst.
(33:45):
And but the tallpoppysyndrome.org is more about fun
and probably more interesting.
You can sign up, it's free.
And then if you don't like it,just bow out.
But I only try and do it aboutevery seven to ten days because
my time's important and I knowother people's time is
important.
So I try not to flood the marketwith the tallpoppy syndrome.
SPEAKER_00 (34:08):
Well, thank you again for being here today and
for sharing with us and for thework that you do in the world.
SPEAKER_01 (34:14):
Thank you.
It's been my pleasure.
SPEAKER_00 (34:15):
Thanks for listening to the Stress Nanny.
If you found today's episodehelpful, be sure to share it
with a friend who could use alittle extra calm in their week.
And if you have a minute, I'dlove for you to leave a review.
It helps other parents find theshow and join us on this
journey.
For more tools and support, headover to www.thestressnanny.com.
Remember, you don't have to dostress alone.
(34:37):
Together we can raise kids whoknow how to navigate life with
confidence and ease.
Until next time, take a deepbreath and give yourself some
grace.
Welcome to the Stress Nanny, the podcast where
we take the overwhelm out ofparenting and help kids and
parents build calm, confidence,and connection.
I'm your host, Lindsay Miller,kids' mindfulness coach and
cheerleader for busy familieseverywhere.
Each week we'll explore simpletools, uplifting stories, and
practical strategies to helpyour child learn emotional
(00:42):
regulation, resilience, andself-confidence, while giving
you a little more peace of mindtoo.
I'm so glad you're here.
Douglas Garland, MD, practicedorthopedic surgery for 37 years
in Southern California.
Dr.
Garland was a clinical professorof orthopedics at the University
of Southern California, where heauthored over 100 peer-reviewed
(01:04):
scientific articles.
With over 600 citations, theTallpoppy Syndrome book that he
wrote is the most comprehensivebook on the subject.
The Tallpoppy syndrome is ahuman condition that has been
present in every society fromthe beginning of time.
It explains why we seek fairnessand justify our actions by
cutting others down.
Doug Garland has been studyingthe Tallpoppy phenomenon for
(01:27):
over 10 years after heexperienced it firsthand in his
own career.
His work brings awareness andclarity to an unknown and
under-recognized, oftenmisunderstood human condition.
Doug, thank you so much forjoining me today.
I'm so excited for thisconversation.
SPEAKER_01 (01:41):
It's my pleasure to be here.
I'd love to talk about myfavorite subject.
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
So we're going to get right into it.
We're going to talk about tallpoppy syndrome today.
But before we do, it's importantto kind of determine the
difference between some of theseemotions that maybe are a little
uncomfortable for us to sitwith.
So let's start out with envy andjealousy.
Can you talk us through thoseemotions, the differences, kind
of what distinct characteristicsthey have?
SPEAKER_01 (02:07):
So I think we need to do the definition first
before we get into everythingelse.
SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:13):
So the de definition of the tall poppy syndrome is
it's a metaphor looking at apoppy field and you see one
poppy taller than the rest.
And human nature is to want tocut that poppy down so that
everybody's equal.
It helps build your ownself-esteem if you're not
(02:35):
surrounded by a tall poppy inmany, many instances.
So that's the original metaphor,which was described in ancient
Greece, and then it was modifiedin ancient Rome to include the
poppy metaphor.
The original description, theconcept was with wheat, and then
Rome, the Roman definition thenbecame the tall poppy.
(02:59):
And I would I look from thatexperience once I understood the
concept, then I looked throughall civilizations and through
all time periods, and I was ableto find it almost in every
country and every time period.
And they all have their ownsayings.
(03:19):
For example, in Holland, it isthe tall tree captures all the
wind.
And Japan, it's the tall nailgets pounded down.
So cultures are aware of it.
They have a different meaning.
Actually, the Nordic countrieshave a law of Jante, J-A-N-T-E,
and it's 10 rules of how not togrow tall.
(03:40):
So they're just the opposite ofa lot of countries.
They they try to prevent one togive habits not to stick out in
society so that you won't getcut down.
So it's prevalent.
And the least prevalent area isAmerica.
And my original premises when Iwrote the book was it must be
(04:01):
our individualism that preventedAmerica from having or knowing
about the tall poppy syndrome.
And by the time I had writtenthe book, which took over five
years, my conclusion was it'smore prevalent in America
because of our individualism andbecause of our meritocracy.
So that we don't know about it,but I see it every day.
(04:22):
So that's the concept.
Now, the second, the next thingI had to do was understand it.
And then I had to try and fit itinto our particular culture.
So the Australian culture, theywere founded essentially as a
colony from England, just likewe were, but they were a penal
(04:43):
colony, and in the penal system,everybody's equal.
And that has continuedthroughout their history.
So they're a very egalitariansociety, meaning everybody are
relatively equal.
And they, if you do grow tall,which they don't have a lot of
tall poppies compared toAmerica, then there is a severe
(05:03):
tendency to want to cut themdown.
And that particular problem isdriven by envy.
Envy is my favorite emotion, andI think an underrated emotion
because envy is always on.
So as soon as I looked at youwhen we opened up today, I
looked to see your hair and whatyou're wearing and your facial
(05:25):
expressions and things.
So we're already makingjudgments through comparison.
And of course, envy is covetingwhat someone else has, whether
it's your looks, your money,whatever.
And in the age of the internet,that's what I call the currency
of the internet is as soon asyou turn the screen on, envy's
(05:46):
on.
And so much of the internet isdriven by selfies.
So I'm out having a good time,and you're sitting at home
reading or don't have money togo out.
So whatever your problem is, youhave low self-esteem.
So the whole concept of the tallpoppy syndrome in Australia and
(06:06):
most of the otherEnglish-speaking countries is
not prevalent, but Canada andEngland are both aware and use
the term, but it's just not asprevalent.
And as an Australia, then it's ameans of cutting someone down
and keeping everybody equal.
But in doing so, you elevateyour own your own self-esteem.
(06:28):
So the first thing to realizeabout an emotion is it's really
a functional state.
It's what your mind, your mindcontrols your emotion.
And Aristotle defined good andbad envy.
Good envy is emulation.
So I see you, I think you'reattractive, I want to dress like
(06:48):
you, you're smart, I want tolearn your habits.
I want to emulate you.
That's good envy.
And bad envy is the syndrome andwhat I consider the dark
emotions.
And the dark emotions for me arethe seven deadly sins, which is
how I remember the darkemotions.
So in studying Australia, it'svery simple to understand their
(07:11):
culture.
And they cut somebody down, butin their madness about doing it,
they feel justified in cuttingsomebody down because that
somebody lacks deservingness tobe a tall poppy.
They probably did something thatthe cutter didn't agree with.
So in America, I had to changeall that because we have so many
(07:34):
tall poppies.
The movie industry, the businessindustry, the sports industry,
the Hollywood industry.
So we have way more tall poppiesthan any country in the world
that I looked at.
And why do we cut tall poppiesdown?
Well, we have the Australianconcept of bad envy, but we also
(07:56):
have more anger in America.
And we have more anger than mostcountries.
And anger is also a good and abad emotion.
Good anger would make you focus.
Say you're a ball player andsomebody dribbled by you.
Instead of tripping them, whichwould be bad anger, you would do
more work, your more footwork,get in better shape, try to
(08:18):
improve yourself so that theycan't do that.
But we're such an immediatesociety right now at this time
that we want a good fast result.
And a fast result is alwayscutting somebody down.
And the third dark emotion thatI see in America is sloth, which
is laziness.
(08:39):
I'm 79, so I grew up in theearly 60s, and the STEM in high
school and even in junior highwas what's great.
And the emphasis was verydifferent in America from what
it is today.
And so we had less bad envy, Ithink, when I grew up.
(08:59):
It's definitely there, andbullying is definitely there,
but not to the degree that I seeit now.
I blame a lot of it on theinternet and our society.
But anyway, that's three darkemotions that we talk about
that's found in the cutter.
And what about the tall poppy?
Well, the tall poppy usually isgoing to do what egregious is
(09:21):
one of my favorite terms.
So egregious actions, egregious,the most common egregious action
is pride or hubris.
The tall poppy gets too big fortheir britches.
And the public feels justifiedin cutting them down.
And usually if there's adifference in income or societal
(09:41):
level and stuff, you can't cut atall poppy down.
It has to be a mass.
So if you see Brad Pitt, I can'tcut Brad Pitt down.
So it's going to take somepublic reaction to do it.
So it's usually pride is numberone, greed is number two, and
lust is number three.
Those are six of the sevenso-called deadly sins in
(10:04):
Christianity.
The only one we leave out isgluttony, and that's not part of
the tall poppy syndrome, but themnemonic or is something to help
you remember, it's the sevendeadly sins.
And of course, everybody's goingto want to know how do we cure
the tall poppy syndrome?
Well, it's to identify the bademotion and to look for the
(10:27):
corresponding virtue.
So envy is the virtue, thecounter to envy is kindness.
And of course, the virtue forpride or hubris is humility.
So that eventually becomes atreatment.
So we need to discuss the otheremotion, which people use
interchangeably, but it's not aninterchangeable emotion, is
(10:49):
jealousy.
Coveting is wanting somethingthat somebody has that you
don't.
That's going on daily.
Jealousy is something that youhave and you're losing.
And it usually involves threepeople.
So jealousy is relativelyuncommon, where envy is as
common as a common cold.
(11:10):
And jealousy is a dark emotion,but as far as a big cause of the
tall poppy syndrome, it's in thelittle league.
And so it's nice to well, it'snice to differentiate between
that because most people thatare doing the cut cutting are
coveting.
(11:39):
And it's three, and it usuallyinvolves three people.
So that's how you remember whatjealousy is.
And cutting down somebody isusually because they have
something you don't.
So the whole drug world isreally about money and habiting.
They're in a lower escalon ofsociety, and they feel they
(12:02):
can't have what everybody elsehas.
So what do they do?
They do the shortcut and dodrugs.
So it's pervasive in every levelof our society, depending on
what cultural aspect you're in.
The other thing that I need tohelp, and I'll then let you ask
me questions that would be ofyour interest to you and your
listeners.
(12:22):
Most of the cutting doesn'tinvolve tall poppies.
Since I feel envy is soprevalent in our society, I had
to reconcile that the cuttingwasn't happening to tall
poppies, that it was happeningin our peer groups.
So it happens in your family, ithappens immediately in your
family, what I call familialenvy.
(12:43):
So in my family, we had sevenkids.
My mother had her black book.
We got to have a birthday partyonly when we were 10, and we
only got to spend$50.
If we wanted five kids, we got$50.
If we want 10 kids, we got$50.
But she tried to keep everybodythe same in our family so that
everybody was equal.
(13:04):
And many, many families do thesame thing.
And then you get into school andthen the competition starts, and
you get into high school, andthere's more competition and
more bad envy.
And then, of course, college,worse, and then in the workplace
(13:27):
and climbing so-called climbingthe ladder of success, more
competition, more cutting.
So I felt that the what I nowlabel the private or
peer-to-peer, the tribal tallpoppy syndrome is more prominent
than the so-called public, whatI now call the public tallpoppy
syndrome.
It's what the originaldescription of the metaphor was.
(13:51):
So once again, you only can cutin your own tribe.
You know, you don't have powerto cut somebody outside of your
tribe.
I can't cut Brad Pritt down, butif he does something really,
really dumb, then throughsociety, you can cut him down to
(14:13):
his size.
So that's kind of how I workthrough things, the etiology of
the tall poppy syndrome, andthat it's and the whole book is
a self-help book.
Because if you understand thesyndrome and the emotions that
are involved either in you inthe cutter or the cutie, then
you understand yourself betterbecause you have your own bias
(14:35):
and your own issues.
So as you understand what'shappening in the world and your
relationship to it, then youunderstand yourself better and
how you're actually involved inthe family.
I mean, once I tell people aboutit, they go, Oh, yeah, I
remember growing up and theyrelate some family episodes.
So it makes you become moreaware of yourself.
(14:58):
And so in the end, it's kind ofa self-help book, but it's not
how I intended it to be.
I wanted to, first of all,introduce the syndrome to
America.
And you can't, you know, it'slike going to a meeting and you
get cut down and you don't knowit was a tall poppy syndrome,
and you walk out and you go,What just happened?
And so if you don't understandwhat just happened, you can't
(15:22):
figure out if it was your faultor if the other people were off
base.
So it's really a method to helpnot only understand what's going
on about you in the world, inyour tribe, but also in your own
head.
Yeah.
And I can tell you, I was cutdown.
So what happened, I justbriefly, because I've already
(15:44):
dominated the thing.
I was an academic orthopaedicsurgeon in LA.
I ran a large spinal cord injuryunit, one of the largest in the
country and the world, 100 beds.
Wow.
And I had gone to a meeting, Iwas to go to Australia.
They have six units inAustralia.
I was to go to Australia aspresident of the American Spinal
(16:06):
Injury Association at that time.
And I was to go to Australia andvisit each center for a week.
And I had gone to a national,international medic spinal cord
meeting and met with the personwho I was setting it up with.
When I got back to my office inLA, I had a note on my office
(16:26):
that I had been moved down fromthe great grand suite with the
corner window and the big roomand down to a little cubby hole.
And I went home and told mywife, and she said, they've
moved your cheese, which was apopular book about that time,
which is to a certain extent alittle bit like the tall poppy
(16:47):
syndrome.
And she said, you know thatthey're telling you that your
time has ended and it's time tomove on.
And fortunately, I didn't haveher emotional intelligence
because I would have gone backthe next day and immediately
become angry and sought revengeto see who was behind moving my
(17:07):
office and got in a pissingcontest with somebody to see who
would win.
And my wife was smart enough tofigure all that out.
So the next day I went in after30 years and I was a full
professor of orthopedic surgery.
I threw all my accolades off thewall into a big green garbage,
plastic garbage can, all mylectures, everything, put my key
(17:31):
on the desk and walked out.
And I called Australia and toldthem I wasn't coming.
And they said, Why aren't youcoming?
And I told them what happened.
And they said, Well, you've beentall poppied.
So that was my introduction.
But fortunately for my wife andthen for Australia, it took them
about five minutes to finallyget it.
(17:51):
Let me wrap my arms around whatactually happened, that I
understood what was going on,and then confirmed what my wife
had told me.
And I mean, I was prettyprominent.
I probably could have won everyevery battle, but what was the
point?
My wife was right.
They they had moved on, and itwas a good time for me to move
on.
Turned out to be the best thingthat ever happened.
(18:13):
I had a big private practice Iconcentrated on.
I became head of the jointservice at that hospital.
We computerized everything andmade it a very important center
in LA.
And I wrote the book.
So when you have an obstacle,it's best for you to find some
positive way to work yourselfaround it.
Yeah, and I have a chapter inthe book of my tall poppies,
(18:35):
what I consider it takes to be atall poppy.
And all of the tall poppies hadbeen tall poppy.
Most of them were cut down andthey all grew from it.
Probably figure it took somesoul searching and and then they
come back a better person.
So just be if you do get caughttall poppy, frequently it's not
(18:55):
your fault.
And you should if it is yourfault, that's why if I mean you
don't get the promotion, youshouldn't trut the person down
who got the promotion.
You should figure out why theygot their promotion and grow
from it yourself.
Maybe maybe they are a betterperson than you are.
So you need to self-reflect andevaluate the situation.
SPEAKER_00 (19:19):
I think it is an invitation, is what I'm hearing
you say.
SPEAKER_01 (19:22):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (19:22):
Yeah.
Well, thanks for sharing thatstory.
That was a poignant way for youto come across the concept.
And then I appreciated the wayyou described it in terms of
both the person who is growingand is the tall poppy, and then
the person who has or feels theinclination to chop that tall
poppy down.
This is especially resonant tome when it comes to kids.
(19:45):
And you mentioned a little bitabout the difference between
tall poppy syndrome andbullying.
But I'm wondering if you couldtake us through like a simple
scenario where, say, a child is,you know, the kids in its
school, perhaps not bullying,but trying to keep that child
kind of small or quiet, or, youknow, not letting that child
(20:05):
flourish in the way that theycould.
Maybe they're, like you'resaying, their peer group is can
see and feel maybe intimidatedand envious of the child, and so
is trying to keep them fromgrowing to their potential.
What kind of things would coulda parent do to help a child
understand tallpoppy syndromeand then work with that
scenario?
SPEAKER_01 (20:23):
Well, that's the reason I emphasize the dark
emotions and and what'shappening and the importance of
envy.
I'm just telling you, it is soprevalent and it's prevalent in
your families, and it'simportant for the parents to
know.
And so if they they understandthe tallpoppy syndrome, they can
tell it to your kid.
If if they just have, if they ifyou are if if you are smart and
(20:46):
the other kids are envious ofyou, and you're right, you
people always think of the two,both bowling and tall poppy,
frequently as being anindividual thing, but frequently
it is a group.
So a tall poppy's tall becausehe's taller than the group.
So that tells you that conceptright there, and they are going
to be hit from all sides.
(21:09):
And it's important to identifythe behavior of the other
people.
One, it's important tounderstand the status of the
other people.
In the grade school system inAmerica, it's changing
dramatically now from when Igrew up because we were all we
were all equal at that time.
You know, the society now islayered.
(21:31):
There's so many layers, economiclayers and social layers.
I mean, when when I grew up, thebanker's kid was in the school,
the farmer's kid was in theschool, you know, every layer of
our little society was all inthe same place.
And frequently the bullying isalways a power difference.
(21:53):
There's always a difference, andyou have to under the first
thing you have to do isunderstand that.
And you have to understand thevarious layers of bullying, and
frequently it is a problem.
And you have to help your childbecause your child most likely
does have low self-esteem, andthat's the reason they're pick
(22:14):
picking on them.
Kids understand low self-esteem,and they understand some child
that has lower self-esteem, andthat gives them the power over
that child.
So the first thing the parentshave to do is understand their
children, and especially if theyhave lower self self-esteem, and
(22:35):
they have to help the childbuild that self-esteem up.
That's more on the bullyingside, but also the the cutter.
We're talking about the somebodybeing cut down, but that also
works if the child has lowself-esteem.
They need to build that up sothat the child itself is not the
bully or something trying to cutsomebody down.
(22:57):
Both involve low self-esteem.
The kid that's being bullied andthe kid that's cutting down
people.
So the parents need to identifythat and they need to do what we
call in medicine a socialhistory.
They need to question the childabout the situation and try and
(23:17):
understand the situation itselfso that if it is intellectual,
they can tell their child thatnot to give them pride or
hubris, but that they aresmarter and the other kids are
envious of them and that theyjust want to be like them.
And just the identification, theparent to the child is so
(23:39):
important because when you'renot in the battle, you
understand the field, just likethat's why General Stand on the
Hill.
And that's why my wifeunderstood it.
And I didn't, because she didn'thave any dogs in the fight.
She was completely neutral towhat was happening.
So the parents have thepossibility of having that
(24:00):
neutrality and looking ateverything.
But I can tell you what happensto many, many parents, and this
is really important.
They become angry.
And whenever you get angry,which is what happens right now
in America with our mobs and ourmovements and everything going
on, the more angry you get, themore injustice you see.
(24:22):
So you start seeing fakeinjustice, which is not there,
and that's related to the amountof anger that's happened.
So you can have a simple episodeon the schoolyard, which happens
every day.
And if you tell your parentssomebody beat me up or
something, and they don't reallydig into it, especially when you
(24:43):
had a parent like my dad who wasvery quick to temper and he gets
mad right away and he lets it gothis time, he works through it,
but then it happens again, andthen he just explodes.
He sees more injustice when thechild is fearful and he's not
telling the truth to even startwith.
So the parent has to always makesure he understands the
(25:08):
situation completely, to includegoing to a teacher or to
somebody else's family ortalking to other peers to find
out what's really going on.
Kids know the whole field.
Kids know what's going on.
So your best chance of findingthe truth is finding some of the
kids' peers and ask them what'sreally going on in school if
(25:31):
you're friendly.
My dad had a bad temper, but hehad a wonderful personality, and
he got along well with all ourkids.
I mean, he played baseball andfootball and everything.
So if there was ever a problem,he always asked other kids what
was going on.
He's very smart in getting atthe bottom of the emotions that
was happening within our peergroups.
(25:53):
And that's what the parents haveto do too.
And then they have to supportthe child in whatever they
figure out's going on.
But you you need that impartialperson to provide support, just
like my wife did.
Or you'll go down the wrongpath.
The parents will go down thewrong path, and the child will
go down the wrong path.
It's very easy to go down thewrong path.
SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
So having a balanced perspective because with the
tall poppy syndrome, like you'retalking about, the child who is
tending toward being a tallpoppy, we can lead them further
into a sense of pride, or we cankind of poison their perspective
on their growth if we frame itin a way that promotes pride
instead of just promotingself-development or promotes a
(26:37):
sense of calm and confidentmoving forward.
SPEAKER_01 (26:40):
Yeah, exactly.
If my wife hadn't had thecorrect appreciation of my
situation, I mean, if she wouldhave maybe been an automatic
loving wife and just supportedme, it would have made my that's
what I'm telling you.
Then you'd drive your madnessworse.
And the more mad you get, themore injustice you see.
In the end, the people up therewere kind of doing it.
(27:02):
I know exactly who did it, Iknow everything about it, but
they were just playing gameswith my head, you know.
I was it was just fun, you know,it was a fun thing.
I I turned the table on them.
I didn't know I was doing it.
But then when I resigned, theypeople knew what happened.
I mean, it was like kids inschool, people knew what
happened, and of course, thosetwo people look like idiots
(27:24):
because they lost one of theirmost prominent physicians.
Yeah, nobody, and I didn't sayanything to anybody, I just
walked out.
It's like, you guys take care ofthe mess you've created.
I'm out of here.
So parents need not shoot first,they they need to do their
homework as well.
And if your child is to blameand he has a potential pride
problem and you reinforce that,you just in medicine we have a
(27:48):
law called Frank's Law.
It comes from Frankenstein.
Whoever creates the monster hasto take care of the monster.
So if you reinforce that pridein a child, you've just created
a monster and you're going tohave a lot more problems
controlling that child now thanif you had given him for him,
her the right, right perception.
SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
I think it it's wise advice to, like you said, both
in terms of a general, but alsoin terms of poppies, right?
See the field, see the wholefield, kind of understand what's
going on and where your childis, and taking it in context.
And one of the reasons I likethis theory is because one of
the ways I teach kids aboutmindfulness and families in
(28:27):
general about mindfulness istalking about what's going on
inside of you, what's going onoutside of you, and then making
a choice on purpose.
And so I think this analogyplays really well into that as a
metaphor because it gives us acontext, right, for those
interactions.
SPEAKER_01 (28:40):
Yes, you need the context.
SPEAKER_00 (28:42):
Where am I?
Where am I in this field ofpoppies right now, whether it's
my immediate field in my family,whether it's my field at school,
whether it's on my sports team,whether it's in the larger
community, like where am I at?
And how can I orient myselfbased on this paradigm?
SPEAKER_01 (28:57):
You're right.
You're the dynamic is alwayschanging, but you're in the same
big field.
But within that field, thedynamic changes.
And that's why, as a parent, youneed to understand, but you need
to understand to help your childunderstand.
And let me let me tell you areally important study out of
Australia, because I grew upwith five brothers and one
(29:19):
sister.
So it was a very male-dominatedchildhood.
And then I had two daughters andI was ill-prepared because most
of the things you learn in lifecomes from observation, comes
from envy, from not necessarilycoveting, but as soon as you
turn on that comparison emotion.
So, you know, I learned by justobserving what my dad did.
(29:40):
And then when I had twodaughters, everything was turned
upside down.
And I'm telling you, it's well,but women think differently.
I mean, that's why that book,Men Are From Mars and Women Are
From Venus, whatever it was backin the 90s.
But Australia did, I think, areally wonderful study.
It was a studying on bullies andHigh school athletes because in
(30:02):
schools have a tendency to likesports and elevate the
quarterback and things.
They just don't do academia forwhatever reason.
But anyway, they did a study onbullying and elite athletes in
high school between men andwomen.
And of the male athletes, noneof them said they were bullied.
(30:24):
And every female athlete saidshe was bullied.
And that's a huge importantthing to always understand.
The in a with six boys in myfamily, there was a lot of
bullying within my family andthe familial envy.
And in grade school, I wentthrough a lot of bullying and I
saw a lot of bullying, and mybrothers were all bullied.
(30:47):
And to a certain extent, thereis a rite of passage in the mail
for bullying.
And we think that's becoming aman, so to speak, or the
so-called old-fashioned ruggedindividualism of an American
malehood.
And young girls don't have that,they have other issues.
And so that's why even theinterpretation, that's why it's
(31:10):
so important to reallyunderstand what your child's
going through, because theirbias and interpretation might be
not what's really happening.
So the boys said it didn'thappen because it happened all
the time.
So they didn't think it washappening.
They just thought, well, that'sthe way things are in our in our
school.
And the girls had a completelythe same high school, and the
(31:31):
girls had a completely differentconcept of what was happening to
them.
And it's another reason ithappens because it didn't, the
study didn't say, but I thinkit's a very important part.
It is the sexism and the gender,and it could be the male on
female that is a part of thatcomponent of the bullying on
(31:54):
that the females areexperiencing.
So parenting is tough andgetting to the bottom and
understanding before you do anyaction is hugely, hugely
important.
SPEAKER_00 (32:05):
Yeah, for sure.
Thank you for sharing that.
Well, and then again, as part ofthat effort, talk to people
about where they can find yourbook.
Like if you're interested inlearning more about Tall Poppy
syndrome and how it's kind ofcome about through the ages and
then how it applies currently inyour life, how to teach it to
your kids.
Doug's book can be a greatresource for you for that.
SPEAKER_01 (32:24):
I think so.
It's a good read.
It helps you understand, helpsyou understand you even your
family.
I mean, I don't know if ithelped my family, but they they
all are very aware of the tallpoppy syndrome right now.
I can tell you that.
SPEAKER_00 (32:38):
I bet where can people find the book, Doug?
SPEAKER_01 (32:41):
So I have two websites.
The book website is just myname, Doug D-O-U-G, G-A-R-L-N-D,
2Gs.com.
That's a working website, and mybook comes up and and how to
order it from Amazon and things.
And actually, the reviews on itare very good.
(33:02):
So if you have any questions,look at a few of the reviews.
But I have a second website thatI do, like the podcast will be
on that, my blogging's on that.
Like I did Will Smith when hewas tallpoppy at the Academy
Awards.
And that's an animatedexplanation.
(33:22):
It's really wonderful.
But anyway, that particular blogsite is tallpoppy syndrome one
word.org.
And I get to the other is moreserious.
And actually, I have scientificarticles on that.
I went into medicine, which isin denial.
Professionalists, mostprofessions say they don't have
the tallpoppy syndrome, but inessence, they're the worst.
(33:45):
And but the tallpoppysyndrome.org is more about fun
and probably more interesting.
You can sign up, it's free.
And then if you don't like it,just bow out.
But I only try and do it aboutevery seven to ten days because
my time's important and I knowother people's time is
important.
So I try not to flood the marketwith the tallpoppy syndrome.
SPEAKER_00 (34:08):
Well, thank you again for being here today and
for sharing with us and for thework that you do in the world.
SPEAKER_01 (34:14):
Thank you.
It's been my pleasure.
SPEAKER_00 (34:15):
Thanks for listening to the Stress Nanny.
If you found today's episodehelpful, be sure to share it
with a friend who could use alittle extra calm in their week.
And if you have a minute, I'dlove for you to leave a review.
It helps other parents find theshow and join us on this
journey.
For more tools and support, headover to www.thestressnanny.com.
Remember, you don't have to dostress alone.
(34:37):
Together we can raise kids whoknow how to navigate life with
confidence and ease.
Until next time, take a deepbreath and give yourself some
grace.
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