The glow of “perfect together” can hide a much harsher truth. We sit down with narcissism specialist Dr. Anthony Mazzella to unpack how the illusion of blissful union forms, why ordinary differences feel like threats, and what actually changes when you stop outsourcing your worth. From a psychodynamic perspective, we trace the arc from early unmet needs to adult relationships that demand constant validation, then explore the real cost of leaving: grief for the fantasy, and the devaluing voices you carry after the breakup.
We get practical fast. You’ll hear how to spot red flags—pressure to be “always positive,” fights over hobbies or time apart, and the panic that turns separation into abandonment. Dr. Mazzella demonstrates “containment,” a therapeutic process that pairs validation with mindful inquiry, so you can slow reactivity, notice discomfort, and choose differently in the moment. We contrast projection with mentalization, show how integration of self reduces idealize–devalue cycles, and share simple repair scripts and redo language to stabilize daily interactions.
Parenting patterns take center stage too. We map how a history of domination and powerlessness can resurface as rigid control of a child, and how mindful boundaries protect connection without shutting people out. Along the way, we challenge the myth that change is a straight line. Progress happens in moments: one honest pause, one contained feeling, one boundary you keep. If you’re navigating a narcissistic relationship, healing after one, or trying to end a generational cycle, this conversation offers clarity, language, and tools you can use today.
If this resonated, share it with someone who needs it, subscribe for more grounded guidance, and leave a review so others can find the show. Your support helps us grow a community built on calm, courage, and real change.
To listen to the other podcast episode that Dr. Mazzella and Lindsay recorded, check out this episode of the Narcissism Decoder Podcast.
For more information about Dr. Mazzella’s psychoanalytic affiliations and membership in The International Psychoanalytic Association (IPA) -which is restricted to psychoanalysts who fulfill the most recognized international standards for psychoanalytic training- visit his website.
Lindsay Miller is a distinguished kids mindfulness coach, mindfulness educator and host of The Stress Nanny Podcast. She is known for her suitcase tricks and playful laugh. When she's not cheering on her daughter or rollerblading on local trails with her husband, you can find her using her 20+ years of child development study and mindfulness certification to dream up new ways to get kids excited about deep breathing. Having been featured on numerous podcasts, platforms and publications, Lindsay’s words of wisdom are high impact and leave a lasting impression wherever she goes.
To sign up for Lindsay's "Calm & Collected" Newsletter click here.
To review the podcast click here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lindsay Miller (00:20):
Welcome to the Stress Nanny, the podcast where
we take the overwhelm out ofparenting and help kids and
parents build calm, confidence,and connection.
I'm your host, Lindsay Miller,Kids Mindfulness Coach and
Cheerleader for Busy FamiliesEverywhere.
Each week we'll explore simpletools, uplifting stories, and
practical strategies to helpyour child learn emotional
(00:42):
regulation, resilience, andself-confidence, while giving
you a little more peace of mindtoo.
I'm so glad you're here.
I am so excited for myconversation today with Dr.
Anthony Mazzella.
He is a narcissism specialist,and he's going to talk with us
about some of the signs andstresses that accompany
narcissistic relationships.
(01:02):
Anthony, thank you so much forjoining me.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (01:05):
Hello, Lindsay.
Thank you.
I appreciate you having me onyour show and giving me this
opportunity to share some of mythoughts on what I think you
know is a very, very complicatedtopic, right?
Lindsay Miller (01:17):
Yes, for sure.
Which is why we're grateful tohave an expert.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (01:20):
Well, let me see what I could do.
I'm I'm going to try my best.
As we get started, let's justgo over some basics.
Lindsay Miller (01:28):
When somebody's been through a narcissistic
relationship, what are some ofthe emotional or psychological
challenges they're left with?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (01:36):
Okay, so if it's okay, I just I want to
set a foundation of like what isa narcissistic relationship?
But just for your for yourlisteners, I want to share my
bias, which is this is from apsychodynamic perspective.
Okay.
So from a psychodynamicperspective, a narcissistic
relationship primarily exists inwhat we call an illusion.
(01:59):
That's the illusion oftogetherness.
That's what we call a blissfulunion, or some people call it
codependency.
Some other people call it ashared unconscious fantasy.
But primarily, if it's really anarcissistic relationship, it's
about two people comingtogether to finally feel like
they've been seen, that they'vebeen validated, that they're
(02:22):
recognized, that they're beingheld, all the things that
typically go missing earlier inlife, things that they missed
out on that they're looking tofix in their current
relationship.
So that's sort of thefoundation.
But let me just pause just fora moment to see does that even
make sense, or is there anythingmore that I could say about
(02:43):
just what is a what is this kindof relationship?
Lindsay Miller (02:47):
Yeah, no, I I really appreciate that
explanation and the way youtethered it to some other
things.
Let's maybe dive a littledeeper just for our listeners
and explore how you initiallykind of recognize or come to the
realization that that likemaybe you're using a present
relationship to meet past needs.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (03:08):
Okay, so one thing that you'll typically
see in these relationships,which is like a red flag, is an
intense level of togetherness.
In other words, each partnerhas a hard time letting the
other partner exist in their ownright.
So I don't mean just literalseparations, which by the way
are always painfully difficult.
(03:29):
He wants to go out with hisfriends, she wants to go on a
trip with the girls.
It's there's usually a fightaround that because
togetherness, and not justtogetherness, but everything has
to be great.
Everybody has to always behappy.
Why do we have to talk aboutnegative things?
Can't you just be morepositive?
These are all things that oneimagines should occur in a
(03:52):
relationship, but this is notwhat makes up a healthy
relationship.
Togetherness and time alone,one opinion is okay.
If the other opinion isdifferent, these are all signs
of a very healthy relationship.
So those are the red flags.
And I mean, there are manymore, but the glaring red flag
is problems around separationand letting the other person
(04:16):
exist in their own right as aseparate person with their own
opinion that's different thanyours.
That's the key.
If they can't have their ownopinion if it's the same as
yours, because then that's theblissful togetherness again.
Lindsay Miller (04:28):
Okay, yeah, thank you.
That was clarifying.
So it now let's go like onestep further.
In that relationship, there isthis like blissful togetherness,
everything seems great, butthen engaging outside of that
relationship with other people,there's some friction, right?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (04:48):
Yeah, because once you're doing
something outside therelationship, again, if there
are narcissistic disturbances,it's not just a like a
separation, but it's oftenexperienced as an abandonment,
like you left me or you rejectedme.
And for the narcissist orsomeone who has these
characteristics, that's toopainfully difficult to tolerate.
(05:11):
And that's why there's often afight around somebody doing
something that's different orhaving a hobby that's separate
from.
So, yeah.
So having a life outside isdifficult for another reason as
well, which is if you go out andyou have fun, what does that
mean?
What does that say about me?
Am I no longer valuable?
(05:32):
In other words, I thought I wasthe most important person.
It's like someone who, let'ssay, has a family and they're a
couple of kids, and they need togo away on a business meeting
and they start getting anxiousabout leaving for their business
meeting.
And I explore that with thembecause part of what I do in my
work with these individuals is Iget really close as possible to
their subjective experience.
(05:53):
And I start to explore this.
And what I discover is what ifI go away and everybody's fine,
the family's fine, and theyfunction without me and they
have a good time.
See, that means I'm not reallythat important.
I'm kind of irrelevant in thefamily.
And for the person who hasthese narcissistic traits, they
need to feel like the mostimportant thing.
(06:14):
Yeah.
Lindsay Miller (06:15):
Yeah.
No, that's powerful.
And then the pull of that onthe person in the relationship
is so strong that there arelimited opportunities, right?
To, like you're saying, to haveany external experience to kind
of alert them to the fact that,like, oh, maybe this isn't how
(06:35):
most people do it, or oh, maybethis is different, or oh, like
because it's so insular, thereare less reference points
outside, right?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (06:44):
To kind of verify what's going on.
No, that's a really good point.
I didn't even mention that.
Is that in general, I you know,I work not just with
individuals, but with couples aswell.
And oftentimes by the time theyget to me, their life is very
insular.
In other words, there's notmany rich opportunities that go
on outside of either themselvesor the family, or maybe a very
(07:06):
close circle, but that usuallyjust includes their families.
Like, oh, we're always at hisfamily's house, or we're always
at with her mother.
So yeah, life becomes verylimited in that way, which then
just feeds into, unfortunately,and becomes a perpetuating cycle
of disillusionment.
Lindsay Miller (07:26):
Yeah, yeah.
So then let's let's say likepost-relationship.
Let's say someone isrecognized, you know, they've
tried to reconcile, trying towork through it, maybe haven't
been able to, and have have putsome distance in in that
relationship, right?
And they're nowpost-relationship trying to kind
of figure out how to engagewith people from a more healthy
(07:51):
or a more autonomous place.
What are some of the likeleftover remnants of the
relationship that are gonna kindof they're gonna have to kind
of manage and deal with that?
What are those emotional andpsychological challenges that
are maybe gonna be with them fora bit?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (08:07):
Oh boy, this one is a little
complicated.
Can I use an analogy just sortof to drive it home to the
listeners?
So if anybody has known anybodywho's been caught up in a scam,
right?
So these people that get caughtup in a scam oftentimes give
away their whole life savings,right?
And I've heard these storiesbefore, and they have loved ones
(08:28):
telling them you are beingscammed, right?
But they can't hear it becausethere's this illusion of what
fame, power, wealth.
There's a big payoff at theend.
So for someone to leave a scam,for someone to leave a cult,
right, where you're alsobrainwashed into believing that
(08:51):
salvation is just around thecorner, right?
That all your needs are goingto be gratified.
For someone to leave anarcissistic relationship, you
see, it's the same thing.
So to your point, Lindsay, whenyou leave, now if you leave
that illusion behind, which isnot easy because you're leaving
the hope, the promise ofsalvation, and all what we call
(09:14):
internal propaganda that goesalong with it, you know, that
life is going to be wonderfulonce this happens, right?
So now you're in reality andyou're expected to leave that
behind.
And that's a big, big loss,right?
Because you know, you've had soyou just gave away your whole
life savings, or you've beenwith this partner for many
(09:36):
years.
So that's on one level whatmakes it very difficult because
you're asking someone to stepinto a painful reality and leave
all the internal propagandabehind.
So that's one thing, and I'lljust mention one other thing
that's really hard.
So the question is why wouldyou ever leave this relationship
if it seems so wonderful andblissful and there's this
(09:59):
togetherness, and you have,yeah, maybe you don't have a lot
of friends or hobbies, but youdo have your family of origin
and/or maybe his.
But it also comes with intensemoments of devaluation as well.
Because when there are timeswhen there is separation, and
it's inevitable, it's so hard tostay in a narcissistic bubble,
(10:19):
just reality always gets in theway.
Then you are devalued, oryou're devaluing him, and then
there's you know a lot ofintense fighting, name calling.
And when you leave, you're notjust giving up something, which
is that propaganda that Imentioned, the salvation, but
you also take something withyou.
And I think you know aboutthis, Lindsay.
(10:40):
In fact, we spoke about thisearlier, right?
Is you take the negative voiceswith you.
Like, remember the stream ofnegativity coming at you.
So all the voices of like, youcan't make it without me, the
only one who will ever put upwith you, you know, you don't
feel worthy or capable.
Could you imagine then tryingto start a life with not just
(11:02):
the loss that you're asked todeal with, but now what you also
bring with you, which are thesecritical voices.
So those are just a few of themost immediate challenges when
someone gets out of this kind ofrelationship.
Does that make sense?
Lindsay Miller (11:16):
No, I I thank you for the way you described
it.
And as you were talking, I wasthinking and and tethering some
of the things you had said.
And as Anthony mentioned, wehad a conversation about
mindfully approaching thesetypes of relationships on his
podcast.
And I'm gonna we'll talk moreabout that at the end, and I'm
gonna link to it in the shownotes.
But one of the things that wasjust like a stark reality when
(11:39):
with what you were describing islike with this vision of
perfection, this vision of youknow, the the the amazingness of
this relationship eventuallycomes.
And then you had said, I thinkif I heard you right, a lot of
times the blame for that visionnot coming to fruition is the
other person.
So if the other person is toblame for the demise of the
(12:02):
relationship, and then they'realso devalued because of all the
things said in therelationship, and then they're
trying to like bravely step footinto a space where they're all
of a sudden confident andcompetent about making their own
choices.
I mean, that's such a big leap.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (12:18):
Yes, especially because I'll just add
one other piece, which I knowis always a little
controversial, but for peoplewho have a little bit of a more
open mind to this, and this iscomplicated stuff, so I'm not
saying this definitively, butoftentimes it's called a shared
unconscious fantasy because bothpeople in the relationship are
looking to have some sort ofneed met.
(12:40):
And that means that they can'tdo it internally, so they need
those external supplies, theyneed that constant source of
external validation.
When her husband just goes inthe other room with the kids,
the feeling is why would heleave me alone here?
Why didn't he invite me intothe room with the kids?
He's playing with them withoutme.
So then there's that constantneed, and I say it's
(13:04):
controversial because it's a lotmore comfortable and easier,
and I hear this quite a bit tosay, look at my narcissistically
disturbed partner, whatever,husband, wife, mother, whoever
it is.
And that may be true.
I want to emphasize that.
It doesn't mean that they'renot, but oftentimes there's an
interpersonal dynamic that keepsthese relationships alive.
(13:27):
So now back to your point,Lindsay.
So when they leave therelationship, if in fact that is
true, what I'm saying is thatthey do depend on external
validation and supplies as well,how can they possibly be in
another relationship in ahealthy way unless they begin to
work this through?
Because then once they get inanother relationship, they're
(13:49):
going to lean on their friend orfamily member or next partner
for the same type ofrelationship because that's what
went missing again in theirearlier childhood.
And just as a quick aside, Ican't tell you how often I hear
this.
I hear it on social media.
And recently I did an interviewwith a woman and we were
talking about this, and she wasvery honest in sharing that when
(14:11):
she left her narcissistichusband, she said my next three
relationships were all withpeople who were pathologically
disturbed.
Other people say I end up goingback to the relationship, even
though it's not what I want,pulled back into it.
So I'm sorry to make it alittle more complicated, but
that's another challenge thatthey face is that that need for
(14:33):
something doesn't just go awaybecause they work, you know,
they left the relationship.
They have to really start towork through it.
Lindsay Miller (14:41):
Yes, yeah.
No, I'm so glad you pointedthat out.
One of my dear friends isnavigating life
post-narcissistic divorce.
And she has been doing so muchwork around just these very
things you're saying, right?
Around trying to figure outwhat dynamics, what patterns,
what needs she needs to meet forherself in order to connect in
(15:07):
a relationship in a more wholeway.
Yes.
And on your show, we we spentquite a bit of time talking
about like sitting in thediscomfort of those types of
moments, right?
Like those realizations, thoseare not easy to stomach.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (15:23):
Yeah, that's right.
And I'll tell you justsomething again as an aside, the
realization, it's it's such astrange thing because it's so
gratifying to watch, like when Iwork with these patients go
through it, even though it's sopainfully difficult, it's both
heartbreaking but so necessary.
So someone like who grows up,like this is like a prototypical
(15:44):
example with let's say anarcissistically disturbed or a
preoccupied parent who doesn'thave the capacity to really be
there for them emotionally whenthey're a child, but gives them
a lot of gifts, right?
So the way they express love isthrough gift giving.
So now this person grows up notreally knowing how to be in a
(16:05):
genuine relationship, and theyget into you know relationships
as an adult and they don'tunderstand why they keep
fizzling out and why the womankeeps saying things like you are
not emotionally available.
And they're like, but I buy yougifts or I take you on trips,
and then they begin to realizethrough the work, you know, as
we go through this, that that isnot connecting.
(16:27):
And in fact, they didn't feelthat they were connected at all
to their parent because theywere never recognized, they were
just given gifts.
So this is one of the ways thatthen it interferes with the
next relationship.
I'm still thinking about whatit's like, you know, post-yeah.
Lindsay Miller (16:44):
No, I thank you for bringing that up.
That's so insightful too,because I think the place where
mindfulness can have an impacthere is in the moment-to-moment
decisions, right?
And we've talked about thatlike your the type of work that
you do is the is at the heart ofmaking those changes, right?
Of recognizing the patterns,recognizing the needs,
(17:07):
understanding how to moveforward in a way that helps you
meet those needs moreautonomously.
And then mindfulness is whatlike is a little toolkit you can
use in those small day todaymoments when you have you know
this pull towards something youknow isn't gonna support you,
and like this tiny spark ofbravery pulling you forward into
(17:29):
the person that you're tryingto become, right?
Yes, yep, yep.
And and like having having thesupport and the awareness on
that journey is so vital, right?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (17:39):
Yeah, and you said brave, you know, and I
say like, yes, brave, because ittakes a lot of courage.
You have to muster up a lot ofeven just to leave this kind of
relationship.
Yeah, but I would also say Itrust that there's a
developmental push in all of us,you know.
Oftentimes I hear narcissistsdon't come for therapy, or why
would a narcissist ever come fortherapy?
(18:00):
And it's true, probably many donot.
So I'm biased because I'mtalking about the ones who do
come, but they know deep inside,oftentimes they know something
is wrong.
And developmentally, there'salways a push that can't be
ignored, that they want to dobetter in life.
And oftentimes when there's asevere enough collapse, like
(18:22):
leaving this kind or recognizingthat this is not a healthy
relationship, that they deservebetter, that's a developmental
push right there.
So, hey, let's do something forfun if you don't mind, okay?
Because you mentionedmindfulness, yeah, and I'd love
to juxtapose it withcontainment.
That's a concept that I usequite frequently.
So I'm going to whip up aclinical example.
(18:44):
Again, like let's put this, youknow, the fellow aside just for
a moment whose mother gave himthe gifts.
This is a person who comes inand tells me about an argument
with her husband, right?
About child rearing.
So I want to get your opinionon this, Lindsay.
And you tell me, is thismindfulness?
I'm going to tell you what Idid.
And then you say, Yeah, this isor it's not, or this is how it
(19:06):
would look different.
So I'm listening to the storyabout how there's a
disagreement.
He had a different opinion onhow they should rear the child,
right?
And then she shifts and shestarts telling me about what a
wonderful weekend they hadtogether.
And I point to her, I point outthat I've noticed something,
and I wonder if she's aware ofit as well, that she was telling
(19:28):
me about a disagreement and sheseemed a little uncomfortable.
And then suddenly she shifted,telling me about what a
wonderful weekend they had.
And if she's like, Yes, Inoticed that, like it, it's like
a it's a process, by the way,in terms of how I do this,
because if there's too muchdenial, we have to go back and
kind of take another pass at itin a different way.
But if she's buying into it, Iwould begin to talk to her about
(19:53):
what made her uncomfortableabout thinking about a different
opinion.
You see, there's the differencethat comes up in such subtle
ways in everyday life, butthat's quite devastating.
So, what does she do to handleit, to feel better?
And this is what I talked toher about.
In order to manage thedifference, she goes to what a
wonderful weekend it was.
(20:14):
And some people could go toattacking the other person as
well.
That's a way to be togethertoo.
I know that seems paradoxical,but that is togetherness because
now you're in a fight, right?
But in any matter, slowing herdown and then recognizing the
shift to a blissful, right?
There's your narcissisticrelationship, and why it's
important for me to track this,in my mind at least.
(20:37):
Would you say, would you callthat mindful?
I'm just curious.
This is where I love to have alittle dialogue with you.
Would you call thatmindfulness, or is that a little
different?
Lindsay Miller (20:47):
Yeah.
No, I would definitely callthat mindfulness.
Cause again, if we're lookingat like what's going on inside
of me, what's going on outsideof me, and then making a choice
on purpose, right?
Like if you're noticing thethis the distraction or the
detour, and then you're bringingattention to like the
discomfort, and then she's ableto sit in the discomfort,
(21:08):
recognize the context, what'sgoing on outside of her that
maybe prompted the discomfort,and then work through it with
you.
Yeah.
Yeah, I would say that's amindful moment.
So you call that containment?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (21:19):
Yeah, containment because we slow them
down, right?
And then we develop what'sagain another fancy word, but
it's called mentalization, acapacity to start to reflect on
one's own inner state.
So the inner state wasdiscomfort, but she didn't know
that.
I mean, she knew it justbriefly.
That's why she was close enoughthat I could bring her back to
it.
Sometimes it's just too faraway and this doesn't work, you
(21:42):
know?
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Yeah.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (21:43):
But yeah, we would call that containment,
which is not just sitting therelistening to somebody, but it
usually starts with validating,you know, if they're
dysregulated, like really upsetor angry about something, get
them into a more regulatedstate, and then to start to m
ask these inquisitive questionsto help them begin to develop a
capacity for self-reflection,which they could take with them
(22:07):
when they leave.
Lindsay Miller (22:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, no, that's that's sofascinating too.
And I love how granular you gotin terms of you know noticing
the nuance, like that mindfultherapy for sure, right?
Yes.
In terms of like, is is thiswithin like her ability to
tolerate, right?
Because I think for for we dothat with kids too, right?
(22:29):
When we're trying to kind ofhelp them grow through something
or trying to navigatesomething, we're like, is this
gonna put them over or are theyin a position they could talk
this through, right?
Like, is this gonna and so I Ithink that that's such a great
awareness in terms of workingwith a situation where you're
seeing something and you'rewanting to give the person an
(22:49):
opportunity to see it as well,but in a way that they can
tolerate.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (22:53):
And in a way that hopefully, if done, and
and I think the best way isthat they come to it on their
own.
Sometimes you have to helpthem, but again, that's always
judging because sometimes withpeople who do have these
narcissistic characteristics, ifyou come in with a different
perspective, you see now I'mjust like the husband.
You see what I mean?
(23:13):
So the goal, I don't know if Icaptured it in this little tiny
vignette that I just gave, butthe goal is to try to help them
begin to recognize that I movedaway or just start to think
about what just happened.
So rather than saying you feltanxious about separation, I
wouldn't say that probably,unless I'm working with somebody
(23:34):
and we've already used thatlanguage because now I'm just
telling them something and Idon't really feel confronting.
Yeah, yeah, it's confrontingbecause obviously they're
avoiding it for a reason.
Who am I to go force it back?
You know, unless they're justclose enough, they're on the
precipice of it.
Maybe I'll help a little bit,but usually I find it more
valuable to ask the questions tosee if I can help them get to
(23:55):
it.
Lindsay Miller (23:56):
Yeah, which is so skillful, and uh, I love that
about your approach, is that itis empowering at its core for a
situation that is not at allempowering, right?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (24:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, because they're feelingso who knows what?
That's the whole point.
Like, we don't know whatthey're feeling.
So who am I to assume unless westart getting closer to that?
Because that's the whole beautyof you know, to go back to what
we said before, the illusion oftogetherness is not to feel
deeply, you know, just it's it'sall about just being admired,
just being recognized.
(24:30):
Yeah.
Lindsay Miller (24:31):
What what do you think are some of like the
pieces that are missing aspeople are recovering from
relationship?
I feel like having having thesetypes of experiences, I could
be wrong, but I think intherapeutic settings, like your
approach, it is unique andbeautiful, right?
And and I don't I don't knowthat that's the experience most
(24:54):
people get.
Do you feel like working withspecialized?
Obviously, you do, and I do,but working with the specialized
support, it just feels like adifferent piece of the like
empowerment puzzle.
So instead of maybe just likedusting the surface of
something, you you're able tokind of get in there and help
people make those inside outchanges that are more lasting.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (25:18):
Yeah, we look for something that's called
structural change.
But if we look at the sort ofthe underlying theory, and I
think you know this too, becauseagain, we spoke earlier and I
think you nodded, but with thepersonality disorders, any of
them, there's what's known as afragmented sense of self, which
means you know, you've heardthis concept splitting.
This is why they're prone tosplitting, because they're not
(25:40):
able to integrate, something youand I discussed again a little
bit earlier.
So the ultimate goal after,only after the containment part,
which I think now we could callmindfulness, by the way, right?
Helping them become morereflective and mindful, because
that has to happen first.
Then we can move into thedeeper work that I think you're
(26:01):
you're hinting at right here,which is to begin to integrate
one sense of self.
What does that even mean?
All that means, you know, it'slike fancy jargon, but just
really simple.
It just means that thesepeople, anybody who has a
personality disorder, typicallyhas an image of themselves, like
with the narcissist, as what?
(26:21):
Either grandiose, special, orbelieve it or not, very weak,
needy, clingy.
They they all go together,they're all part of the
grandiose structure, by the way.
So we need to help them beginto integrate these very
different self-representationsbecause when they're split, they
(26:41):
could feel one way one momentand another way the next, and it
makes for a very disintegratedlife.
But the the other piece is theyalso project this, as you know.
So they don't just seethemselves in this way, and they
see you this way too.
So one minute you're the best,you're amazing, you're
wonderful, and the next minuteyou're not very valuable
anymore.
(27:02):
So it makes for tumultuousrelationships, and that's where
these people who have thesenarcissistic traits typically
struggle the most, is inintimate relationships.
They can do pretty good atwork, by the way.
You know, they even rise tohigh levels of achievement at
work.
CEOs, lawyers, you know, theyreally do well, especially if
they have a lot of peopleworking under them.
(27:23):
That works in their favor.
Lindsay Miller (27:27):
Yeah.
And thank you for thank you forall the different pieces of
perspective you just shared.
Because I think that there's somuch value in recognizing that
like these types of moments ortraits or tendencies show up in
a lot of different places,right?
And like you're saying, theymay, they, they may be something
you're like just having aninkling of, or they may be
something you really understandand kind of are identifying
(27:49):
with.
But along the way, as we canlike pick up on different
tendencies or work withdifferent tendencies in a
mindful way, there's theopportunity to move through some
of the work of healing orgrowing or relating in a more
healthy way.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (28:07):
Yeah, more a more when and we could be
more specific.
Like healing, then, in myopinion, in a psychodynamic
perspective for personalitydisorders, is then that
integration, developing a moreintegrated sense of self.
When you're more integrated,you project less.
When you project less, thatmeans that people in the
environment are less angry.
We didn't even talk about angeryet.
(28:28):
And if they're less angry atyou, right, then you have
friendlier relationships becausenot everybody's out to hurt you
or not hold the door open foryou because they don't like you
or something like that.
Lindsay Miller (28:40):
Yeah.
And let's take a minute to talkabout projection too, because I
think that in terms of I'venever had a psychodynamic
specialist on my podcast before.
And so I I mean, I've talked toa number of psychologists,
right?
But in terms of your specialtyand the mode that you use for
practice, I feel like the theidea of projection is super
(29:01):
powerful.
So can you explore that uh boththrough the lens of
narcissistic relationships andthen we can maybe extrapolate
into like kids?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (29:11):
Yeah, so let me just start off very basic
and then we'll build from therebased on what questions, okay?
So what is projection?
So projection just basicallymeans that there's something
inside of us, a feeling or athought that's too painful to
tolerate, and it's much morecomfortable to get rid of it,
eject it, right?
And then, but the problem withthat is we eject it and then we
(29:33):
put it on you, right?
Now, sometimes it has greatvalue.
Like if I feel weak orpowerless, right?
Because I had an abusivefather, it's much better to see
you as weak and powerless and bepower, you know, have the power
over you because I don't haveto then tolerate that painful
feeling, right?
But the problem with that,unfortunately, is we tend to
(29:54):
people don't talk aboutinterjection hardly ever.
You probably don't even hearthat word common, you know, it's
not.
So commonly used.
But basically, we interject thepeople in our environment,
right?
This is the people who areclosest to us are the things
that we take in.
So could you imagine, Lindsay,if everything you're projecting
is negative, now you gotta, likelet's say it's anger and you
(30:14):
can't tolerate your anger, youwould be imagining that I'm
angry at you, right?
But that makes for a verypainful environment, right?
Now you're taking in theseangry, what we call introjects.
I don't want to get tootechnical, but that's why it
just becomes so important towork with projection.
Again, you hear these storiesthat sometimes um people who
have these narcissistic traitsare so worried about being
(30:37):
judged.
Sometimes they're so worriedabout being judged that they
hold themselves back in life.
They hole up in theirapartments or in their house.
They think that if they gooutside, their next door
neighbor is going to be criticalof them, right?
Because they didn't mow theirlawn.
I don't know, something likethat, right?
So you could imagine thengetting into these projections
(30:58):
and starting to explore andhelping them own parts of
themselves.
The world just becomes a morepeaceful place.
But let me pause because I knowI'm kind of throwing out a lot
right now.
But does this am I beginning atleast to answer the questions
around projection?
Does it seem a little bitclearer?
Lindsay Miller (31:15):
Yeah, but I love the way you described it, like
a piece of yourself that youkind of send off, but then that
has ramifications in yourrelationships.
And I I appreciate the exampletoo, because I think as humans,
we can have that tendency, butlike in the cases that you work
with, there's like an extremityto it.
Like we're talking about in theextreme, right?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (31:39):
Yes, I yeah, I guess it's like
anything, it's like on acontinuum, right?
So we probably all do this tosome extent.
That's a good point.
Just like we all have likenarcissistic traits to some
extent, right?
We all do things forself-serving purposes.
It doesn't mean we have NPD,it's just, you know, it feels
good sometimes to do somethingfor ourselves, right?
(32:00):
It feels good to get paid,right?
Our patients come and they payus.
It feels good.
There's nothing to feelembarrassed about with that.
But yeah, so there aredifferent levels of it.
And then depending on the leveland how much they project and
how hostile that projection, Imean, yes, then it's becomes
more serious and then moreurgent for us to begin to
address that very early on inthe treatment.
Lindsay Miller (32:23):
Yeah.
As listeners are hearing this,I also would love to hear what
it's like from your perspectiveto be on the receiving end of
projection.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (32:36):
That's complic, that is complicated
business, right?
Because unfortunately, this iswhere many couples get in
trouble.
They don't they stay at themanifest level because it's so
hard, because you have thisintense affect coming at you.
You're being accused ofsomething.
It's so hard to look beyondthat and begin to wonder where
(32:57):
is this really coming from?
Is it coming from me?
So for me to be on the accusingend, so when I'm told by a
patient that I just helped themand that that felt good, but
then they feel upset with mebecause I only help them for
selfish reasons, right?
Because I only wanted to feelgood.
(33:18):
You see what I mean by that?
Now, if I don't step back andsay to myself, huh, is there
something to that?
I have to take that seriously.
Maybe I was selfish in a waythat maybe I was too like over
the top or telling him what todo.
By the way, I never tellanybody how to live their life.
I more likely to explore whythey're not doing something.
(33:38):
I hardly ever, ever giveadvice.
It's just kind of thepsychodynamic approach because
I'm no expert on anybody's life,you know.
But if I get caught, sometimesI may get caught up on that and
I have to question did Iaccidentally do that?
Did I do this?
So that's the first step,Lindsay, is for me to really
reflect on did is theresomething here?
(33:59):
Is there a grain of truth?
And if there is, then I'll say,you know what, you're right.
I didn't realize that I didthat.
And I apologize.
You know, just recently I toldsomeone that they need to look
for a job.
This is someone I'm treatingwho's not who's living at home.
You know, I have patients likethis in my practice, you know,
that we that's part ofnarcissism.
They retreat sometimes, theycan't get out.
(34:19):
Remember, I said they fear thatthey're going to be judged or
they'll fail, whatever.
And I said, you know, you'reright.
I stepped into thatinadvertently.
I need to step out of it now,and we need to look at it
together.
What happened there?
So, anyway, that's a longanswer to the question.
But the first step is for me toreflect and to think, is this
coming from me?
(34:39):
And then if it's not, then thenext step is to help them begin
to see, slowly begin to see howthis might be coming from them.
And that's a very slow,delicate process with just very,
you know, basic exploratoryquestions initially, because we
said it a moment ago, they'regetting rid of this for a
(35:00):
reason, and I don't want toshove it back in them
prematurely, because thenthey're going to feel attacked
by me, which is not really byme, but it's putting something
in them that they don't want.
Anyway, did that help?
Or did I get a little okay?
Lindsay Miller (35:13):
Yeah, it's so interesting because I think I
like the I love the idea of likereflection and then I'm gonna
use mindful again, response,right?
So, like reflection on whetherthere's any veracity in what was
spoken, and then if so, youknow, a mindful response to
either reconcile or own or justwork through, and then if not,
(35:35):
to to take a minute to inviteexploration, yeah.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (35:41):
Yes, and I love when you keep bringing it
back to mindfulness.
I love it because I'm always socurious about this and I wonder
about the overlap.
That's why I appreciated thatyou did that little exercise
with me earlier with containmentand mindfulness.
Lindsay Miller (35:54):
Yeah, no, I think there is so much overlap,
especially in that part of it.
But I think in terms of it'sone of the reasons I love
mindfulness is I feel like it'slike the frontline response,
like in a on a day-to-day basis,as we're working through
whatever it is we're workingthrough, sometimes with a
therapist on a bigger scale,sometimes just in our house with
our kids, sometimes at work, soright, like whatever the
(36:17):
setting is, sometimes in arelationship, like we may need
to call in the experts, right?
And then we may be able to getquite a bit done using our
mindfulness tools, right?
And then when you can tetherboth, even better, right?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (36:31):
Yeah, that's a good point.
I didn't think of it that way.
I guess, like with containmentand mindfulness, it is such a
good, valuable, not even justbeginning level.
I mentioned this anytime thosethoughts are coming at you or
you're being persecuted, justkeep revisiting this over and
over.
But the professional then maycome in at a point where there's
(36:51):
something bigger going onthat's not in the mind.
That's what we call theunconscious.
And that's more of thepsychodynamic approach.
Is we don't always deal withthings as at the manifest level.
We like to slowly get below andsee what's going on under the
hood, if I could say it thatway.
Yeah, yeah.
Lindsay Miller (37:08):
And I think there's so much, so much to
that, because I think that atleast in my own experience,
mindfulness was a crucial skillfor me in being able to tolerate
some of those subconsciousrealizations, right?
Whether with a therapist or onmy own.
Like, oh, this is actually howI'm acting in this situation, or
(37:29):
this is how I view my myself.
And it's humbling, right?
To come to terms with a lot ofthose.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (37:35):
Yeah, just the fact that you could say
that is so impressive.
You know, this is how I'macting in this situation, right
there.
Like you're ahead of like, Idon't want to put a percentage
on it, but many people can't dothat because now you're taking a
bit of ownership, right?
Yeah.
Well, thanks.
It's hard fucking.
Well, people ask, like, can thenarcissist change?
(37:57):
That's like a common question,I get, right?
Yeah.
And the question is alwayslike, who knows?
But there are certain signsthat that suggest if they could
change or not.
And that is one of the firstsigns is can they take any
responsibility that they play arole in whatever problems are
going on in their life or intheir relationships, or that the
fact that they were fired fromtheir fourth job now, can they
(38:20):
take any responsibility at all?
And if the answer is no, thenthe prognosis for change is very
limited.
Lindsay Miller (38:27):
That's interesting.
Thanks for bringing that upbecause I was curious about like
if someone's listening rightnow and hearing a lot of
tendencies that they're very,very familiar with, you know,
and they're maybe noticing forthe first time it's just coming,
coming up through thesubconscious into their
consciousness that this is areality for them in a
relationship.
What are some of the are thereother signs or what are some of
(38:49):
the other stresses that might beaccompanying that relationship
that would help them kind ofconnect the dots?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (38:54):
Wait, so the question is if something
that was maybe not so consciousis beginning to emerge, there's
some recognition, right, thatthey slow down.
This is part of likemindfulness, right?
They're recognizing something,maybe, right?
In a more regulated state.
So the question is thensomething painful, I would
imagine.
Is that right?
(39:15):
Like what something isbeginning to emerge that's
uncomfortable.
And what do you the question iswhat do you do with that?
Or what's the next yeah?
Lindsay Miller (39:23):
I guess I was asking like three questions in
one.
So yeah, of course, first ofall, how do you start to process
that?
Or like what other dots ifthey're curious and they're
like, maybe this is, are thereany other dots they could be
connecting to help them clarifywhat they're looking at?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (39:40):
Okay, let's think about that one
first.
So the first thing you need todo is go get a drink.
No, I'm just kidding.
That's because that's whatpeople do, by the way, right?
Is like you get something toget rid of it as quickly as
possible.
So one thing you could doactually is if you have a good
friend or if you're in therapy,or you have a relationship with
(40:00):
somebody, you know, that youfeel is, you know, that there's
enough trust there, you check inwith somebody.
You can say, hey, listen, Inoticed something about myself,
or I've been thinking aboutsomething, but I don't know if
this is accurate.
Do I tend to be a burden?
Am I a burden?
Like, do you feel that I'm toomuch?
I don't know.
I'm just making that part up,Lindsay, because I don't know
(40:21):
exactly what's emerging.
But one way to do is just tocheck in with people because you
wanted to start to distinguishbetween what's a persecutory
thought.
Maybe I'm just being hard onmyself and what's a reality.
And then if you ask a couplepeople, right?
Or here's another way.
I just thought of this one.
Let's say you get into anargument with somebody, but you
(40:41):
do have this tucked away in yourmind, this burgeoning
awareness.
Then you slow down and insteadof getting angry because of what
they did to you, you can askthem, instead of why do you
behave that way?
You could say, Hey, I'm justcurious, how come you behaved?
How come you got so angry atme?
Was there something that I didthat got you upset?
That's really like if you couldjust do that, that seems very
(41:05):
simple, but that would bemonumental because now you're
checking in with somebody, butyou're checking in with
yourself, to your point,Lindsay.
Like to see, is this newawareness that I'm having, is it
accurate?
Did I do something?
And the person may say, No, no,it was just me.
I had a bad day at work and Iwas short and I got triggered.
Or they may say, Yeah, youdidn't realize it, but the way
(41:27):
you just spoke to me was socondescending, I felt
diminished.
And they say, Oh, right, that'swhat I was just thinking.
Or they may say, You're puttinga demand on me to take care of
something for you.
It's like you're taking noresponsibility.
And then you'll say, Oh, maybeI am a little bit too much.
Maybe this is the way itpresents itself.
So that's one way to do it isto check in.
(41:48):
I don't know, what do youthink?
I'm just thinking out loud whatto do with it, but what do you
think?
Lindsay Miller (41:52):
That makes sense.
Yeah.
I think that I think thatthere's so much value, like you
just said, in in referencingsomeone else, right?
Because I think sometimes wecan get stuck in, like you said,
maybe a more negative view ofourselves.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (42:05):
Yeah, like a perspiratory thought.
Lindsay Miller (42:06):
Yep.
Yeah, worry about things thataren't aren't real.
But I think being able toreference out and then also
being able to just in the momentmindfully approach an
interaction.
In our house, we like to haveredoes.
Can I get a redo on that?
You know, or so if if we'veapproached it and we get the
feedback that maybe our tone wasoff or there was some other way
we could have said something,asking to kind of repair in that
(42:30):
moment can be so supportive.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (42:32):
I like that.
I like that.
A redo.
I'm going to borrow that.
Okay.
Can I add one little thing toit?
Okay.
So to repair, one thing that Ifind that's very valuable is to
add in some recognition that youmay have hurt somebody
inadvertently, right?
So you're not just asking for aredo like to make it magically
go away, but there's somerecognition.
(42:53):
That's the validation, andthat's part of containment, that
word that I used earlier,right?
That the first step isvalidating.
So you'd have to validate that.
Oh, maybe what I said washurtful, or I imagine that made
you feel kind of crappy.
Can I get a redo on that?
I didn't mean, or I don't wantyou to ever feel that way.
So I would just add in maybethat other little piece.
Lindsay Miller (43:14):
Yeah, 100% for sure.
And I think I think that's goodto define the process more
fully because sometimes I justdo say redo.
But in our house, part of thatis the recognition, whether it's
in a look, right, or in aconversation where like, I'm
sorry, that's not the way Iwanted to show up in that
moment, or that's not how I wantto, you know, that's not the
way I want to support you.
Or, you know, did I say that ina way that was hurtful?
(43:37):
Yes.
And getting the feedback andthen saying, okay, I'm so sorry.
That's not what I wanted to do.
Could we could we replay, youknow, that moment?
Yep.
That's wonderful.
Talk to me a little bit moreabout I know we're short on
time, so I have so manyquestions.
Let's let's explore for aminute if someone was in
narcissistic household or likein a household where there were
(44:01):
narcissistic patterns, whatmight be some of the
ramifications for that person asa parent?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (44:09):
Okay.
Lindsay Miller (44:09):
Like if you experience that as a child.
Oh, yes, I got it.
I got it.
And then you are now like inyour own house parenting, and
you're you're maybe like maybethe tendencies haven't come
through quite as strong for you,but that's kind of the soup you
were simmering in for a longtime.
What might be some of thepatterns or tendencies that you
might want to be mindful of as aparent?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (44:30):
Yeah, so just again, like a prototypical
example, because this is socommon in people who have these
narcissistic traits, is theygrew up with a father who was
overly domineering, controlling,and often left them feeling
like especially in a father-sonrelationship, with a sense of
powerlessness, because thefather himself always needed to
(44:50):
feel in control.
That doesn't mean there wasnecessarily physical violence,
it doesn't need to be, it's justa constant sort of wearing away
at your confidence, right?
Yeah.
Constantly.
So no matter what you do,you're not actually doing it
right because the father alwaysknows best, right?
So now this kid grows up with afeeling of being quite
(45:13):
powerless.
So one way to deal with that isto feel quite powerful.
And by the way, that's thegrandiose sense of self again,
the structure that holds thenarcissist together.
So he has now a son later inlife or a daughter.
It doesn't even matter.
Gender doesn't matter becausethese things get repeated
anyway.
He could even do this with hiswife.
But let's say, for argument'ssake, to go back to your
(45:34):
example, he has a child.
What he does without evenknowing it is he's beginning to
assert his own dominance overand over.
Now the kid starts to act outbecause he doesn't want to feel
powerless.
So then he has to assert morepower.
And it could even get to thepoint now there's tension in the
relationship constantly, andthey don't have a good
(45:55):
relationship.
And sometimes things may evenget physical when he's trying to
force his child to do somethinghis way, but but always not
aware, thinking that my kid isjust acting out.
Look at the way my kidmisbehaves.
He's so defiant, he doesn'tlisten to anything I say, right?
So that's one way that it couldget replicated later in life,
(46:17):
is you inadvertently, withouteven knowing it, become the
father that you had, right?
In order to get rid of afeeling of being powerless,
because it'll of course it feelsmuch better to be in control,
you know.
Lindsay Miller (46:31):
Yeah, yeah.
I think again, let's justcircling back to the idea of
containment here as we close.
Like I think that storyillustrates so well the
importance of that concept,right?
Like that gentle awareness.
And I think as we work throughthose types of moments and find
(46:54):
ourselves in situations wherelike we may not have responded
to something in a way that'scongruent with how we would like
to be, or we're starting tojust have this burgeoning
awareness of how we are, youknow, how we are showing up in
relationship or with kids thatwe honor the moment of
awareness.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (47:13):
Yeah, and that's just to use that word
just for a moment, containment,right?
So in this example, I'm notsure exactly where you meant the
containment was, but what'shappening with the father, so
there were two levels with thefather, he is unable to contain
a hurtful, painful feeling.
So he gets rid of it, right?
(47:34):
He makes somebody else feelpowerless.
So that's where we come in,right, Lindsay?
Through mindfulness, or in myword, containment is that I
contain the feeling, and I do itby way of not being upset with
this guy, not saying he's doingsomething bad, but by slowly
showing him, right?
(47:55):
Of course, of course, you wouldneed to be in control of your
son because it becomes soimportant to you to feel like
you have uh like the all thepower, but we just don't know
why it's so important to haveall the power with him.
So that's an act ofcontainment.
Um I'm validating a need forhim to do something, but at the
same time, I'm trying to invitehis curiosity to think about,
(48:18):
huh?
Yeah, I wonder where this comesfrom.
Why do I need to do it thisway?
Clearly, it's not working, it'snot giving me the result that I
want.
I'm not having a goodrelationship with my son, and
that's what I really want.
Lindsay Miller (48:30):
Yeah, yeah.
And that it's like that moment,right?
It's like, again, because I'mworking in moments.
It is like the moment when youhave made a choice that is not
moving you in the direction youwant to go.
Yes, right?
Like I want a strongrelationship.
You know, in the example we'reusing here, I want a strong
relationship with my son.
This action, like when you caneven just hold a minute of the
(48:52):
dissonance between what you wantand how that's playing out
currently.
I feel like that's the powerfulspace where like you just plant
a tiny little seed of changeright there.
And you, and then you know, youlike you're saying, you get the
help that you need, or you workthrough some of the things that
are coming up for you in a safeplace, not like taking it out
(49:15):
on your right, like we're notprojecting on the kid, we're not
asking the kid to carry thislike generational burden
forward.
We're like, no, no, no, no, no,that's actually gonna stop
here, right?
That moment, that mindfulmoment, which we can then work
on, work on in a containmentsafe space with a therapist.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (49:34):
I think those are the and just just can
I add one thing, yeah.
Yeah, so much for bringing itback to moment.
I told you earlier that Ireally appreciate you describing
mindfulness as moment, andthat's all we can ask for in
terms of helping somebody again.
Back to the process of change.
That's part of the process isto have a moment, and you have
(49:55):
to respect and not get upset foranybody who's listening.
When you do this with somebodyin your life and you have a good
moment, anticipate that it willgo, it will head south, you
know, the next moment.
Okay, because that's part ofthe process, and that's what I
see, and that's why therapytakes a while, because there are
moments like this, but thenthey disappear and then they
(50:17):
reappear, and we bring we slowlybring those moments to the fore
when they're not there and weevoke a memory.
Hey, remember when you said youwanted to have, so now we're
helping them have more of thosemoments so we could build on
them.
But to your point, Lindsay, andI just want to emphasize so
nobody gets frustrated becauseit's not always an upward
trajectory of change, you know?
(50:38):
Yeah, you got it.
I I could stop there.
Oh no, I'm no, say that's yourthought.
No, no, you got it, you got it.
You know how this works.
It's just like we have momentsand then they disappear and then
they reappear, and we can't getfrustrated by the process
because that's all part of theprocess.
Lindsay Miller (50:53):
Yes, yeah.
One of my clients this week, wewere talking through a scenario
that she was in learning toride a bike.
And learning to ride a bike ischallenging, and especially when
you're little and you fall offa lot, you know?
But we were talking about howlike small gains aren't negated.
So, like taking off onetraining wheel but not being
(51:15):
able to take off both yet,that's still a win, right?
Just because you can't ridewith both and you backtrack a
little bit, that doesn't meanthat doesn't mean you don't get
to take the success of the onetraining wheel, right?
And I am in a situation whereI'm working with that like
growth mindset on a you know, ona much different level, right?
Riding a bike is very differentthan rearranging an entire
(51:37):
relationship.
And also the it's a universalprinciple, right?
Is that like when we're makingthese gains, they're gonna come
with moments where we're likestruggling.
Yes, yes.
As we continue to engage, weover time can see the progress.
But in the moment, it's oftenkind of ugly.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (51:56):
No, listen, I said it earlier.
I love your metaphors.
One was with the park, rememberCentral Park.
Now you bring in a bike,something again, very close and
dear to my heart.
So we can use that metaphor andsay, in a way, it is as
complicated as having arelationship.
Because let's say you want toride your bike really fast and
you want to get stronger on yourbike.
Same thing, it's not an upwardtrajectory.
(52:18):
There'll be moments whereyou're training and you're doing
well and you're competing andyou're winning or you're doing,
you know, and then you get sickor you get an injury.
You know, the sign of a trueathlete, like a true
relationship.
I'm not even just talking aboutsport right now, yeah, is to be
able to tolerate those momentswhere the trajectory is no
longer up, it could be down, andthat's those are the hard
(52:41):
moments, but those are the signsof a true relationship athlete,
to stay with the metaphor.
Lindsay Miller (52:47):
Yeah, yeah.
And I mean, the thing that Ilike to reiterate is that you
don't get resilience withoutthose moments, right?
There's actually not a way tobuild resilience without them.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (53:00):
That's right.
And let's but let's give thecaveat because I'm always
anxious about this.
Yeah, yeah.
We're not suggesting to anybodyto stay in a relationship where
they're not happy.
You see that's 100%.
Just in case people are like,oh, Dr.
Mazzella said if you're nothaving a good relationship,
right, you should stick with it.
No, that's not what I'm saying.
We're just talking about toLindsay's term, building up
(53:21):
resiliency, right?
Lindsay Miller (53:23):
Yeah, no, thank you for clarifying that because
I I wouldn't want to send thatmessage either.
What I what I do think is thatit in my mind that the moment of
resilience there is like doingthe hard thing of exiting,
right?
Or doing the hard thing ofchanging the relationship
through therapeutic interventionor seeking a different reality
than the one you're currentlyexperiencing, not staying in a
(53:47):
space that's not safe.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (53:49):
And that's not changing, also.
That's not changing, right?
Yeah.
No, thank you for clarifyingthat.
Of course, and thanks forarticulating that addendum to
it.
Lindsay Miller (53:57):
Do you have time for one more question?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (53:59):
Yeah, please go for it.
Lindsay Miller (54:01):
Okay.
Talk to me a little bit abouthealthy boundaries.
Because I think we've we'vespent a lot of time kind of
identifying these edges that aregoing to feel sharp and rough
and the relationships that bynature have very few boundaries.
So, what are some of the thingsyou teach your clients or you
work to like kind of educatepeople on around what a healthy
(54:22):
boundary looks like and how toconsistently kind of hold those
for yourself?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (54:27):
This is this is a really important
question.
You know, I've spoken so muchon my own podcast about
boundaries because I'm not a bigfan of them, right?
Because people sometimesmisunderstand what a boundary is
and they think that they haveto like push their loved one
away if they don't speak to themin the right way.
So I like to try to bringpeople together, but uh I'm sort
(54:49):
of rethinking it as I was justlistening to your question.
If there's any kind of verbalabuse or physical abuse in the
relationship, and my now in myperspective, that's an important
and a very important time tocreate a healthy boundary.
So just like a really quickexample.
So I treat people who, youknow, sometimes personality
(55:10):
disorders, they could bemoderately disturbed, I mean,
and quite demanding.
And there was a fellow who wastexting me in between sessions,
you know, they get very upsetsometimes.
That's a separation, by theway.
It's a very big sensitivitywith people who, you know, with
not who have these narcissistictraits.
You ended the session, I wasn'tdone yet, you don't care.
What kind of therapist are you?
(55:31):
Like a barrage of these textmessages, like pages of text
messages for days.
And finally I had to tell them,listen, you need to knock it
off.
No more text messaging.
If you have something to say,we'll book a second appointment.
You know, you come in and wework on this, but you can't
treat me this way.
So no more text messaging.
So there's a boundary.
And in my opinion, that's ahealthy boundary because back to
(55:53):
the word containment.
It's a different type ofcontainment, but this guy could
not contain his aggressivity.
It was spilling out all overthe place.
And I don't need to take that.
I mean, I don't need to beabused in that way.
I'm just trying to have apeaceful evening after I'm done
with the session.
That was a good session.
Those some sometimes are thehardest, by the way.
The good sessions.
We spoke about that in theother episode, accepting
(56:15):
something good, right?
So that would be a healthyboundary.
So for anybody who's listening,you'll have your own tolerance
for what's acceptable, right?
My tolerance tends to be alittle higher.
Like, I don't mind, you know,getting, you know, I mean,
that's part of my job is I takein a lot of this aggression or
powerlessness, made to feeluseless.
(56:35):
But we, because I know on theother end, I'm going to
eventually be able to containthat myself, hold it for them,
and give it back in a way thatwe could work on it.
But everybody has to have theirown threshold.
But an appropriate boundary inthis example would be hey,
what's going on here?
You need to cut that out.
I said to him, you need toknock it off.
I'm not doing this anymore.
(56:56):
Yeah.
Lindsay Miller (56:57):
No, thank you for sharing that.
And I really would love foreverybody to take a minute to
listen to the episode werecorded because as Anthony
mentioned, we had a really greatconversation about this idea of
not being able to accept goodthings.
Yes.
And I know we have listenerswho find themselves in that
(57:17):
situation where they really wantthe good thing mentally, but
like when it actually comes tolike finding them and they're
feeling it, that they're havingthey're having a hard time
letting it come to them fully.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (57:30):
Yeah, and we looked at like maybe two or
three different reasons why thatmay be very challenging for
again for somebody who has thesenarcissistic traits.
Hey, Lindsay, let me say onemore thing that may be helpful
to your listeners, which is interms of a boundary, yeah, this
is probably more common, whichis well, no, probably people do
get these text messages, by theway, or they get sent a bunch of
memes these days, you know,like how horrible you are.
(57:52):
But another one is a patientcame in and I left him in the
waiting area for too longbecause my clock was about 30
seconds off and he was veryhurt, but he didn't talk about
being hurt that I left him inthe waiting area for the
appointment.
Instead, he told me to changemy clock.
You know, the clock was off by30 seconds.
So after this perseverated fora few sessions, and he was
(58:13):
really surprised that I didn'tchange my clock.
I said to him, Did you reallythink I was going to change my
clock because you told me to?
See, that's a boundary.
In other words, you're notpushing me around.
You see, I'm not going to justdo something because you tell me
to do it.
Instead, we're going to talkabout it.
So let's talk about what it waslike sitting in that waiting
room for 30 seconds.
What did you imagine?
(58:34):
And then we could start gettinginto how he felt I gave another
patient the priority over himand I forgot about him.
But we couldn't do that until Itold him, What, you think I'm
going to because he was holdingout hope that he could control
me.
And if he could control me, wewouldn't have to deal.
We'd never have to talk aboutthose other painful feelings.
What?
Lindsay Miller (58:54):
Yeah, with the discomfort that he was feeling
around it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, that's such a good example.
Thank you.
Sure.
Well, this has been soinsightful for me.
Thank you so much for yourperspective and for all of the
wisdom that you shared todaywith our listeners.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (59:10):
I really thank you.
Thank you for very thoughtfulquestions.
I really appreciate it.
And I appreciate you giving methe time.
And I'm really excited to hearthat I was the first
psychodynamic psychotherapist onthe show.
Lindsay Miller (59:21):
So yes, 100%.
Can you share with ourlisteners where they can find
you?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (59:25):
Yeah, I mean, it's really simple.
It's just everything's on mywebsite.
So if you want to look at mypod, listen to the podcast on my
video channel, all of that isat Dr.
Mazzella.
It's just D-R.
And then my last name,M-A-Z-Z-E-L-L-A.com.
And maybe Lindsay, if you coulddrop it in the show notes,
that'd be wonderful for peoplewho don't have paper and pen
handy.
(59:46):
Do people still use paper andpen?
I don't even know if they're Ido.
Lindsay Miller (59:49):
I mean, yeah, good for you, me too.
Thank you again for your time.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (59:56):
Thank you, Lindsay.
Bye.
Lindsay Miller (59:58):
Bye.
Thanks for listening to theStress Nanny.
If you found today's episodehelpful, be sure to share it
with a friend who could use alittle extra calm in their week.
And if you have a minute, I'dlove for you to leave a review.
It helps other parents find theshow and join us on this
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For more tools and support,head over to
www.thestressnanny.com.
(01:00:18):
Remember, you don't have to dostress alone.
Together we can raise kids whoknow how to navigate life with
confidence and ease.
Until next time, take a deepbreath and give yourself some
grace.
Welcome to the Stress Nanny, the podcast where
we take the overwhelm out ofparenting and help kids and
parents build calm, confidence,and connection.
I'm your host, Lindsay Miller,Kids Mindfulness Coach and
Cheerleader for Busy FamiliesEverywhere.
Each week we'll explore simpletools, uplifting stories, and
practical strategies to helpyour child learn emotional
(00:42):
regulation, resilience, andself-confidence, while giving
you a little more peace of mindtoo.
I'm so glad you're here.
I am so excited for myconversation today with Dr.
Anthony Mazzella.
He is a narcissism specialist,and he's going to talk with us
about some of the signs andstresses that accompany
narcissistic relationships.
(01:02):
Anthony, thank you so much forjoining me.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (01:05):
Hello, Lindsay.
Thank you.
I appreciate you having me onyour show and giving me this
opportunity to share some of mythoughts on what I think you
know is a very, very complicatedtopic, right?
Lindsay Miller (01:17):
Yes, for sure.
Which is why we're grateful tohave an expert.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (01:20):
Well, let me see what I could do.
I'm I'm going to try my best.
As we get started, let's justgo over some basics.
Lindsay Miller (01:28):
When somebody's been through a narcissistic
relationship, what are some ofthe emotional or psychological
challenges they're left with?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (01:36):
Okay, so if it's okay, I just I want to
set a foundation of like what isa narcissistic relationship?
But just for your for yourlisteners, I want to share my
bias, which is this is from apsychodynamic perspective.
Okay.
So from a psychodynamicperspective, a narcissistic
relationship primarily exists inwhat we call an illusion.
(01:59):
That's the illusion oftogetherness.
That's what we call a blissfulunion, or some people call it
codependency.
Some other people call it ashared unconscious fantasy.
But primarily, if it's really anarcissistic relationship, it's
about two people comingtogether to finally feel like
they've been seen, that they'vebeen validated, that they're
(02:22):
recognized, that they're beingheld, all the things that
typically go missing earlier inlife, things that they missed
out on that they're looking tofix in their current
relationship.
So that's sort of thefoundation.
But let me just pause just fora moment to see does that even
make sense, or is there anythingmore that I could say about
(02:43):
just what is a what is this kindof relationship?
Lindsay Miller (02:47):
Yeah, no, I I really appreciate that
explanation and the way youtethered it to some other
things.
Let's maybe dive a littledeeper just for our listeners
and explore how you initiallykind of recognize or come to the
realization that that likemaybe you're using a present
relationship to meet past needs.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (03:08):
Okay, so one thing that you'll typically
see in these relationships,which is like a red flag, is an
intense level of togetherness.
In other words, each partnerhas a hard time letting the
other partner exist in their ownright.
So I don't mean just literalseparations, which by the way
are always painfully difficult.
(03:29):
He wants to go out with hisfriends, she wants to go on a
trip with the girls.
It's there's usually a fightaround that because
togetherness, and not justtogetherness, but everything has
to be great.
Everybody has to always behappy.
Why do we have to talk aboutnegative things?
Can't you just be morepositive?
These are all things that oneimagines should occur in a
(03:52):
relationship, but this is notwhat makes up a healthy
relationship.
Togetherness and time alone,one opinion is okay.
If the other opinion isdifferent, these are all signs
of a very healthy relationship.
So those are the red flags.
And I mean, there are manymore, but the glaring red flag
is problems around separationand letting the other person
(04:16):
exist in their own right as aseparate person with their own
opinion that's different thanyours.
That's the key.
If they can't have their ownopinion if it's the same as
yours, because then that's theblissful togetherness again.
Lindsay Miller (04:28):
Okay, yeah, thank you.
That was clarifying.
So it now let's go like onestep further.
In that relationship, there isthis like blissful togetherness,
everything seems great, butthen engaging outside of that
relationship with other people,there's some friction, right?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (04:48):
Yeah, because once you're doing
something outside therelationship, again, if there
are narcissistic disturbances,it's not just a like a
separation, but it's oftenexperienced as an abandonment,
like you left me or you rejectedme.
And for the narcissist orsomeone who has these
characteristics, that's toopainfully difficult to tolerate.
(05:11):
And that's why there's often afight around somebody doing
something that's different orhaving a hobby that's separate
from.
So, yeah.
So having a life outside isdifficult for another reason as
well, which is if you go out andyou have fun, what does that
mean?
What does that say about me?
Am I no longer valuable?
(05:32):
In other words, I thought I wasthe most important person.
It's like someone who, let'ssay, has a family and they're a
couple of kids, and they need togo away on a business meeting
and they start getting anxiousabout leaving for their business
meeting.
And I explore that with thembecause part of what I do in my
work with these individuals is Iget really close as possible to
their subjective experience.
(05:53):
And I start to explore this.
And what I discover is what ifI go away and everybody's fine,
the family's fine, and theyfunction without me and they
have a good time.
See, that means I'm not reallythat important.
I'm kind of irrelevant in thefamily.
And for the person who hasthese narcissistic traits, they
need to feel like the mostimportant thing.
(06:14):
Yeah.
Lindsay Miller (06:15):
Yeah.
No, that's powerful.
And then the pull of that onthe person in the relationship
is so strong that there arelimited opportunities, right?
To, like you're saying, to haveany external experience to kind
of alert them to the fact that,like, oh, maybe this isn't how
(06:35):
most people do it, or oh, maybethis is different, or oh, like
because it's so insular, thereare less reference points
outside, right?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (06:44):
To kind of verify what's going on.
No, that's a really good point.
I didn't even mention that.
Is that in general, I you know,I work not just with
individuals, but with couples aswell.
And oftentimes by the time theyget to me, their life is very
insular.
In other words, there's notmany rich opportunities that go
on outside of either themselvesor the family, or maybe a very
(07:06):
close circle, but that usuallyjust includes their families.
Like, oh, we're always at hisfamily's house, or we're always
at with her mother.
So yeah, life becomes verylimited in that way, which then
just feeds into, unfortunately,and becomes a perpetuating cycle
of disillusionment.
Lindsay Miller (07:26):
Yeah, yeah.
So then let's let's say likepost-relationship.
Let's say someone isrecognized, you know, they've
tried to reconcile, trying towork through it, maybe haven't
been able to, and have have putsome distance in in that
relationship, right?
And they're nowpost-relationship trying to kind
of figure out how to engagewith people from a more healthy
(07:51):
or a more autonomous place.
What are some of the likeleftover remnants of the
relationship that are gonna kindof they're gonna have to kind
of manage and deal with that?
What are those emotional andpsychological challenges that
are maybe gonna be with them fora bit?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (08:07):
Oh boy, this one is a little
complicated.
Can I use an analogy just sortof to drive it home to the
listeners?
So if anybody has known anybodywho's been caught up in a scam,
right?
So these people that get caughtup in a scam oftentimes give
away their whole life savings,right?
And I've heard these storiesbefore, and they have loved ones
(08:28):
telling them you are beingscammed, right?
But they can't hear it becausethere's this illusion of what
fame, power, wealth.
There's a big payoff at theend.
So for someone to leave a scam,for someone to leave a cult,
right, where you're alsobrainwashed into believing that
(08:51):
salvation is just around thecorner, right?
That all your needs are goingto be gratified.
For someone to leave anarcissistic relationship, you
see, it's the same thing.
So to your point, Lindsay, whenyou leave, now if you leave
that illusion behind, which isnot easy because you're leaving
the hope, the promise ofsalvation, and all what we call
(09:14):
internal propaganda that goesalong with it, you know, that
life is going to be wonderfulonce this happens, right?
So now you're in reality andyou're expected to leave that
behind.
And that's a big, big loss,right?
Because you know, you've had soyou just gave away your whole
life savings, or you've beenwith this partner for many
(09:36):
years.
So that's on one level whatmakes it very difficult because
you're asking someone to stepinto a painful reality and leave
all the internal propagandabehind.
So that's one thing, and I'lljust mention one other thing
that's really hard.
So the question is why wouldyou ever leave this relationship
if it seems so wonderful andblissful and there's this
(09:59):
togetherness, and you have,yeah, maybe you don't have a lot
of friends or hobbies, but youdo have your family of origin
and/or maybe his.
But it also comes with intensemoments of devaluation as well.
Because when there are timeswhen there is separation, and
it's inevitable, it's so hard tostay in a narcissistic bubble,
(10:19):
just reality always gets in theway.
Then you are devalued, oryou're devaluing him, and then
there's you know a lot ofintense fighting, name calling.
And when you leave, you're notjust giving up something, which
is that propaganda that Imentioned, the salvation, but
you also take something withyou.
And I think you know aboutthis, Lindsay.
(10:40):
In fact, we spoke about thisearlier, right?
Is you take the negative voiceswith you.
Like, remember the stream ofnegativity coming at you.
So all the voices of like, youcan't make it without me, the
only one who will ever put upwith you, you know, you don't
feel worthy or capable.
Could you imagine then tryingto start a life with not just
(11:02):
the loss that you're asked todeal with, but now what you also
bring with you, which are thesecritical voices.
So those are just a few of themost immediate challenges when
someone gets out of this kind ofrelationship.
Does that make sense?
Lindsay Miller (11:16):
No, I I thank you for the way you described
it.
And as you were talking, I wasthinking and and tethering some
of the things you had said.
And as Anthony mentioned, wehad a conversation about
mindfully approaching thesetypes of relationships on his
podcast.
And I'm gonna we'll talk moreabout that at the end, and I'm
gonna link to it in the shownotes.
But one of the things that wasjust like a stark reality when
(11:39):
with what you were describing islike with this vision of
perfection, this vision of youknow, the the the amazingness of
this relationship eventuallycomes.
And then you had said, I thinkif I heard you right, a lot of
times the blame for that visionnot coming to fruition is the
other person.
So if the other person is toblame for the demise of the
(12:02):
relationship, and then they'realso devalued because of all the
things said in therelationship, and then they're
trying to like bravely step footinto a space where they're all
of a sudden confident andcompetent about making their own
choices.
I mean, that's such a big leap.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (12:18):
Yes, especially because I'll just add
one other piece, which I knowis always a little
controversial, but for peoplewho have a little bit of a more
open mind to this, and this iscomplicated stuff, so I'm not
saying this definitively, butoftentimes it's called a shared
unconscious fantasy because bothpeople in the relationship are
looking to have some sort ofneed met.
(12:40):
And that means that they can'tdo it internally, so they need
those external supplies, theyneed that constant source of
external validation.
When her husband just goes inthe other room with the kids,
the feeling is why would heleave me alone here?
Why didn't he invite me intothe room with the kids?
He's playing with them withoutme.
So then there's that constantneed, and I say it's
(13:04):
controversial because it's a lotmore comfortable and easier,
and I hear this quite a bit tosay, look at my narcissistically
disturbed partner, whatever,husband, wife, mother, whoever
it is.
And that may be true.
I want to emphasize that.
It doesn't mean that they'renot, but oftentimes there's an
interpersonal dynamic that keepsthese relationships alive.
(13:27):
So now back to your point,Lindsay.
So when they leave therelationship, if in fact that is
true, what I'm saying is thatthey do depend on external
validation and supplies as well,how can they possibly be in
another relationship in ahealthy way unless they begin to
work this through?
Because then once they get inanother relationship, they're
(13:49):
going to lean on their friend orfamily member or next partner
for the same type ofrelationship because that's what
went missing again in theirearlier childhood.
And just as a quick aside, Ican't tell you how often I hear
this.
I hear it on social media.
And recently I did an interviewwith a woman and we were
talking about this, and she wasvery honest in sharing that when
(14:11):
she left her narcissistichusband, she said my next three
relationships were all withpeople who were pathologically
disturbed.
Other people say I end up goingback to the relationship, even
though it's not what I want,pulled back into it.
So I'm sorry to make it alittle more complicated, but
that's another challenge thatthey face is that that need for
(14:33):
something doesn't just go awaybecause they work, you know,
they left the relationship.
They have to really start towork through it.
Lindsay Miller (14:41):
Yes, yeah.
No, I'm so glad you pointedthat out.
One of my dear friends isnavigating life
post-narcissistic divorce.
And she has been doing so muchwork around just these very
things you're saying, right?
Around trying to figure outwhat dynamics, what patterns,
what needs she needs to meet forherself in order to connect in
(15:07):
a relationship in a more wholeway.
Yes.
And on your show, we we spentquite a bit of time talking
about like sitting in thediscomfort of those types of
moments, right?
Like those realizations, thoseare not easy to stomach.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (15:23):
Yeah, that's right.
And I'll tell you justsomething again as an aside, the
realization, it's it's such astrange thing because it's so
gratifying to watch, like when Iwork with these patients go
through it, even though it's sopainfully difficult, it's both
heartbreaking but so necessary.
So someone like who grows up,like this is like a prototypical
(15:44):
example with let's say anarcissistically disturbed or a
preoccupied parent who doesn'thave the capacity to really be
there for them emotionally whenthey're a child, but gives them
a lot of gifts, right?
So the way they express love isthrough gift giving.
So now this person grows up notreally knowing how to be in a
(16:05):
genuine relationship, and theyget into you know relationships
as an adult and they don'tunderstand why they keep
fizzling out and why the womankeeps saying things like you are
not emotionally available.
And they're like, but I buy yougifts or I take you on trips,
and then they begin to realizethrough the work, you know, as
we go through this, that that isnot connecting.
(16:27):
And in fact, they didn't feelthat they were connected at all
to their parent because theywere never recognized, they were
just given gifts.
So this is one of the ways thatthen it interferes with the
next relationship.
I'm still thinking about whatit's like, you know, post-yeah.
Lindsay Miller (16:44):
No, I thank you for bringing that up.
That's so insightful too,because I think the place where
mindfulness can have an impacthere is in the moment-to-moment
decisions, right?
And we've talked about thatlike your the type of work that
you do is the is at the heart ofmaking those changes, right?
Of recognizing the patterns,recognizing the needs,
(17:07):
understanding how to moveforward in a way that helps you
meet those needs moreautonomously.
And then mindfulness is whatlike is a little toolkit you can
use in those small day todaymoments when you have you know
this pull towards something youknow isn't gonna support you,
and like this tiny spark ofbravery pulling you forward into
(17:29):
the person that you're tryingto become, right?
Yes, yep, yep.
And and like having having thesupport and the awareness on
that journey is so vital, right?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (17:39):
Yeah, and you said brave, you know, and I
say like, yes, brave, because ittakes a lot of courage.
You have to muster up a lot ofeven just to leave this kind of
relationship.
Yeah, but I would also say Itrust that there's a
developmental push in all of us,you know.
Oftentimes I hear narcissistsdon't come for therapy, or why
would a narcissist ever come fortherapy?
(18:00):
And it's true, probably many donot.
So I'm biased because I'mtalking about the ones who do
come, but they know deep inside,oftentimes they know something
is wrong.
And developmentally, there'salways a push that can't be
ignored, that they want to dobetter in life.
And oftentimes when there's asevere enough collapse, like
(18:22):
leaving this kind or recognizingthat this is not a healthy
relationship, that they deservebetter, that's a developmental
push right there.
So, hey, let's do something forfun if you don't mind, okay?
Because you mentionedmindfulness, yeah, and I'd love
to juxtapose it withcontainment.
That's a concept that I usequite frequently.
So I'm going to whip up aclinical example.
(18:44):
Again, like let's put this, youknow, the fellow aside just for
a moment whose mother gave himthe gifts.
This is a person who comes inand tells me about an argument
with her husband, right?
About child rearing.
So I want to get your opinionon this, Lindsay.
And you tell me, is thismindfulness?
I'm going to tell you what Idid.
And then you say, Yeah, this isor it's not, or this is how it
(19:06):
would look different.
So I'm listening to the storyabout how there's a
disagreement.
He had a different opinion onhow they should rear the child,
right?
And then she shifts and shestarts telling me about what a
wonderful weekend they hadtogether.
And I point to her, I point outthat I've noticed something,
and I wonder if she's aware ofit as well, that she was telling
(19:28):
me about a disagreement and sheseemed a little uncomfortable.
And then suddenly she shifted,telling me about what a
wonderful weekend they had.
And if she's like, Yes, Inoticed that, like it, it's like
a it's a process, by the way,in terms of how I do this,
because if there's too muchdenial, we have to go back and
kind of take another pass at itin a different way.
But if she's buying into it, Iwould begin to talk to her about
(19:53):
what made her uncomfortableabout thinking about a different
opinion.
You see, there's the differencethat comes up in such subtle
ways in everyday life, butthat's quite devastating.
So, what does she do to handleit, to feel better?
And this is what I talked toher about.
In order to manage thedifference, she goes to what a
wonderful weekend it was.
(20:14):
And some people could go toattacking the other person as
well.
That's a way to be togethertoo.
I know that seems paradoxical,but that is togetherness because
now you're in a fight, right?
But in any matter, slowing herdown and then recognizing the
shift to a blissful, right?
There's your narcissisticrelationship, and why it's
important for me to track this,in my mind at least.
(20:37):
Would you say, would you callthat mindful?
I'm just curious.
This is where I love to have alittle dialogue with you.
Would you call thatmindfulness, or is that a little
different?
Lindsay Miller (20:47):
Yeah.
No, I would definitely callthat mindfulness.
Cause again, if we're lookingat like what's going on inside
of me, what's going on outsideof me, and then making a choice
on purpose, right?
Like if you're noticing thethis the distraction or the
detour, and then you're bringingattention to like the
discomfort, and then she's ableto sit in the discomfort,
(21:08):
recognize the context, what'sgoing on outside of her that
maybe prompted the discomfort,and then work through it with
you.
Yeah.
Yeah, I would say that's amindful moment.
So you call that containment?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (21:19):
Yeah, containment because we slow them
down, right?
And then we develop what'sagain another fancy word, but
it's called mentalization, acapacity to start to reflect on
one's own inner state.
So the inner state wasdiscomfort, but she didn't know
that.
I mean, she knew it justbriefly.
That's why she was close enoughthat I could bring her back to
it.
Sometimes it's just too faraway and this doesn't work, you
(21:42):
know?
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Yeah.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (21:43):
But yeah, we would call that containment,
which is not just sitting therelistening to somebody, but it
usually starts with validating,you know, if they're
dysregulated, like really upsetor angry about something, get
them into a more regulatedstate, and then to start to m
ask these inquisitive questionsto help them begin to develop a
capacity for self-reflection,which they could take with them
(22:07):
when they leave.
Lindsay Miller (22:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, no, that's that's sofascinating too.
And I love how granular you gotin terms of you know noticing
the nuance, like that mindfultherapy for sure, right?
Yes.
In terms of like, is is thiswithin like her ability to
tolerate, right?
Because I think for for we dothat with kids too, right?
(22:29):
When we're trying to kind ofhelp them grow through something
or trying to navigatesomething, we're like, is this
gonna put them over or are theyin a position they could talk
this through, right?
Like, is this gonna and so I Ithink that that's such a great
awareness in terms of workingwith a situation where you're
seeing something and you'rewanting to give the person an
(22:49):
opportunity to see it as well,but in a way that they can
tolerate.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (22:53):
And in a way that hopefully, if done, and
and I think the best way isthat they come to it on their
own.
Sometimes you have to helpthem, but again, that's always
judging because sometimes withpeople who do have these
narcissistic characteristics, ifyou come in with a different
perspective, you see now I'mjust like the husband.
You see what I mean?
(23:13):
So the goal, I don't know if Icaptured it in this little tiny
vignette that I just gave, butthe goal is to try to help them
begin to recognize that I movedaway or just start to think
about what just happened.
So rather than saying you feltanxious about separation, I
wouldn't say that probably,unless I'm working with somebody
(23:34):
and we've already used thatlanguage because now I'm just
telling them something and Idon't really feel confronting.
Yeah, yeah, it's confrontingbecause obviously they're
avoiding it for a reason.
Who am I to go force it back?
You know, unless they're justclose enough, they're on the
precipice of it.
Maybe I'll help a little bit,but usually I find it more
valuable to ask the questions tosee if I can help them get to
(23:55):
it.
Lindsay Miller (23:56):
Yeah, which is so skillful, and uh, I love that
about your approach, is that itis empowering at its core for a
situation that is not at allempowering, right?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (24:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, because they're feelingso who knows what?
That's the whole point.
Like, we don't know whatthey're feeling.
So who am I to assume unless westart getting closer to that?
Because that's the whole beautyof you know, to go back to what
we said before, the illusion oftogetherness is not to feel
deeply, you know, just it's it'sall about just being admired,
just being recognized.
(24:30):
Yeah.
Lindsay Miller (24:31):
What what do you think are some of like the
pieces that are missing aspeople are recovering from
relationship?
I feel like having having thesetypes of experiences, I could
be wrong, but I think intherapeutic settings, like your
approach, it is unique andbeautiful, right?
And and I don't I don't knowthat that's the experience most
(24:54):
people get.
Do you feel like working withspecialized?
Obviously, you do, and I do,but working with the specialized
support, it just feels like adifferent piece of the like
empowerment puzzle.
So instead of maybe just likedusting the surface of
something, you you're able tokind of get in there and help
people make those inside outchanges that are more lasting.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (25:18):
Yeah, we look for something that's called
structural change.
But if we look at the sort ofthe underlying theory, and I
think you know this too, becauseagain, we spoke earlier and I
think you nodded, but with thepersonality disorders, any of
them, there's what's known as afragmented sense of self, which
means you know, you've heardthis concept splitting.
This is why they're prone tosplitting, because they're not
(25:40):
able to integrate, something youand I discussed again a little
bit earlier.
So the ultimate goal after,only after the containment part,
which I think now we could callmindfulness, by the way, right?
Helping them become morereflective and mindful, because
that has to happen first.
Then we can move into thedeeper work that I think you're
(26:01):
you're hinting at right here,which is to begin to integrate
one sense of self.
What does that even mean?
All that means, you know, it'slike fancy jargon, but just
really simple.
It just means that thesepeople, anybody who has a
personality disorder, typicallyhas an image of themselves, like
with the narcissist, as what?
(26:21):
Either grandiose, special, orbelieve it or not, very weak,
needy, clingy.
They they all go together,they're all part of the
grandiose structure, by the way.
So we need to help them beginto integrate these very
different self-representationsbecause when they're split, they
(26:41):
could feel one way one momentand another way the next, and it
makes for a very disintegratedlife.
But the the other piece is theyalso project this, as you know.
So they don't just seethemselves in this way, and they
see you this way too.
So one minute you're the best,you're amazing, you're
wonderful, and the next minuteyou're not very valuable
anymore.
(27:02):
So it makes for tumultuousrelationships, and that's where
these people who have thesenarcissistic traits typically
struggle the most, is inintimate relationships.
They can do pretty good atwork, by the way.
You know, they even rise tohigh levels of achievement at
work.
CEOs, lawyers, you know, theyreally do well, especially if
they have a lot of peopleworking under them.
(27:23):
That works in their favor.
Lindsay Miller (27:27):
Yeah.
And thank you for thank you forall the different pieces of
perspective you just shared.
Because I think that there's somuch value in recognizing that
like these types of moments ortraits or tendencies show up in
a lot of different places,right?
And like you're saying, theymay, they, they may be something
you're like just having aninkling of, or they may be
something you really understandand kind of are identifying
(27:49):
with.
But along the way, as we canlike pick up on different
tendencies or work withdifferent tendencies in a
mindful way, there's theopportunity to move through some
of the work of healing orgrowing or relating in a more
healthy way.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (28:07):
Yeah, more a more when and we could be
more specific.
Like healing, then, in myopinion, in a psychodynamic
perspective for personalitydisorders, is then that
integration, developing a moreintegrated sense of self.
When you're more integrated,you project less.
When you project less, thatmeans that people in the
environment are less angry.
We didn't even talk about angeryet.
(28:28):
And if they're less angry atyou, right, then you have
friendlier relationships becausenot everybody's out to hurt you
or not hold the door open foryou because they don't like you
or something like that.
Lindsay Miller (28:40):
Yeah.
And let's take a minute to talkabout projection too, because I
think that in terms of I'venever had a psychodynamic
specialist on my podcast before.
And so I I mean, I've talked toa number of psychologists,
right?
But in terms of your specialtyand the mode that you use for
practice, I feel like the theidea of projection is super
(29:01):
powerful.
So can you explore that uh boththrough the lens of
narcissistic relationships andthen we can maybe extrapolate
into like kids?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (29:11):
Yeah, so let me just start off very basic
and then we'll build from therebased on what questions, okay?
So what is projection?
So projection just basicallymeans that there's something
inside of us, a feeling or athought that's too painful to
tolerate, and it's much morecomfortable to get rid of it,
eject it, right?
And then, but the problem withthat is we eject it and then we
(29:33):
put it on you, right?
Now, sometimes it has greatvalue.
Like if I feel weak orpowerless, right?
Because I had an abusivefather, it's much better to see
you as weak and powerless and bepower, you know, have the power
over you because I don't haveto then tolerate that painful
feeling, right?
But the problem with that,unfortunately, is we tend to
(29:54):
people don't talk aboutinterjection hardly ever.
You probably don't even hearthat word common, you know, it's
not.
So commonly used.
But basically, we interject thepeople in our environment,
right?
This is the people who areclosest to us are the things
that we take in.
So could you imagine, Lindsay,if everything you're projecting
is negative, now you gotta, likelet's say it's anger and you
(30:14):
can't tolerate your anger, youwould be imagining that I'm
angry at you, right?
But that makes for a verypainful environment, right?
Now you're taking in theseangry, what we call introjects.
I don't want to get tootechnical, but that's why it
just becomes so important towork with projection.
Again, you hear these storiesthat sometimes um people who
have these narcissistic traitsare so worried about being
(30:37):
judged.
Sometimes they're so worriedabout being judged that they
hold themselves back in life.
They hole up in theirapartments or in their house.
They think that if they gooutside, their next door
neighbor is going to be criticalof them, right?
Because they didn't mow theirlawn.
I don't know, something likethat, right?
So you could imagine thengetting into these projections
(30:58):
and starting to explore andhelping them own parts of
themselves.
The world just becomes a morepeaceful place.
But let me pause because I knowI'm kind of throwing out a lot
right now.
But does this am I beginning atleast to answer the questions
around projection?
Does it seem a little bitclearer?
Lindsay Miller (31:15):
Yeah, but I love the way you described it, like
a piece of yourself that youkind of send off, but then that
has ramifications in yourrelationships.
And I I appreciate the exampletoo, because I think as humans,
we can have that tendency, butlike in the cases that you work
with, there's like an extremityto it.
Like we're talking about in theextreme, right?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (31:39):
Yes, I yeah, I guess it's like
anything, it's like on acontinuum, right?
So we probably all do this tosome extent.
That's a good point.
Just like we all have likenarcissistic traits to some
extent, right?
We all do things forself-serving purposes.
It doesn't mean we have NPD,it's just, you know, it feels
good sometimes to do somethingfor ourselves, right?
(32:00):
It feels good to get paid,right?
Our patients come and they payus.
It feels good.
There's nothing to feelembarrassed about with that.
But yeah, so there aredifferent levels of it.
And then depending on the leveland how much they project and
how hostile that projection, Imean, yes, then it's becomes
more serious and then moreurgent for us to begin to
address that very early on inthe treatment.
Lindsay Miller (32:23):
Yeah.
As listeners are hearing this,I also would love to hear what
it's like from your perspectiveto be on the receiving end of
projection.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (32:36):
That's complic, that is complicated
business, right?
Because unfortunately, this iswhere many couples get in
trouble.
They don't they stay at themanifest level because it's so
hard, because you have thisintense affect coming at you.
You're being accused ofsomething.
It's so hard to look beyondthat and begin to wonder where
(32:57):
is this really coming from?
Is it coming from me?
So for me to be on the accusingend, so when I'm told by a
patient that I just helped themand that that felt good, but
then they feel upset with mebecause I only help them for
selfish reasons, right?
Because I only wanted to feelgood.
(33:18):
You see what I mean by that?
Now, if I don't step back andsay to myself, huh, is there
something to that?
I have to take that seriously.
Maybe I was selfish in a waythat maybe I was too like over
the top or telling him what todo.
By the way, I never tellanybody how to live their life.
I more likely to explore whythey're not doing something.
(33:38):
I hardly ever, ever giveadvice.
It's just kind of thepsychodynamic approach because
I'm no expert on anybody's life,you know.
But if I get caught, sometimesI may get caught up on that and
I have to question did Iaccidentally do that?
Did I do this?
So that's the first step,Lindsay, is for me to really
reflect on did is theresomething here?
(33:59):
Is there a grain of truth?
And if there is, then I'll say,you know what, you're right.
I didn't realize that I didthat.
And I apologize.
You know, just recently I toldsomeone that they need to look
for a job.
This is someone I'm treatingwho's not who's living at home.
You know, I have patients likethis in my practice, you know,
that we that's part ofnarcissism.
They retreat sometimes, theycan't get out.
(34:19):
Remember, I said they fear thatthey're going to be judged or
they'll fail, whatever.
And I said, you know, you'reright.
I stepped into thatinadvertently.
I need to step out of it now,and we need to look at it
together.
What happened there?
So, anyway, that's a longanswer to the question.
But the first step is for me toreflect and to think, is this
coming from me?
(34:39):
And then if it's not, then thenext step is to help them begin
to see, slowly begin to see howthis might be coming from them.
And that's a very slow,delicate process with just very,
you know, basic exploratoryquestions initially, because we
said it a moment ago, they'regetting rid of this for a
(35:00):
reason, and I don't want toshove it back in them
prematurely, because thenthey're going to feel attacked
by me, which is not really byme, but it's putting something
in them that they don't want.
Anyway, did that help?
Or did I get a little okay?
Lindsay Miller (35:13):
Yeah, it's so interesting because I think I
like the I love the idea of likereflection and then I'm gonna
use mindful again, response,right?
So, like reflection on whetherthere's any veracity in what was
spoken, and then if so, youknow, a mindful response to
either reconcile or own or justwork through, and then if not,
(35:35):
to to take a minute to inviteexploration, yeah.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (35:41):
Yes, and I love when you keep bringing it
back to mindfulness.
I love it because I'm always socurious about this and I wonder
about the overlap.
That's why I appreciated thatyou did that little exercise
with me earlier with containmentand mindfulness.
Lindsay Miller (35:54):
Yeah, no, I think there is so much overlap,
especially in that part of it.
But I think in terms of it'sone of the reasons I love
mindfulness is I feel like it'slike the frontline response,
like in a on a day-to-day basis,as we're working through
whatever it is we're workingthrough, sometimes with a
therapist on a bigger scale,sometimes just in our house with
our kids, sometimes at work, soright, like whatever the
(36:17):
setting is, sometimes in arelationship, like we may need
to call in the experts, right?
And then we may be able to getquite a bit done using our
mindfulness tools, right?
And then when you can tetherboth, even better, right?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (36:31):
Yeah, that's a good point.
I didn't think of it that way.
I guess, like with containmentand mindfulness, it is such a
good, valuable, not even justbeginning level.
I mentioned this anytime thosethoughts are coming at you or
you're being persecuted, justkeep revisiting this over and
over.
But the professional then maycome in at a point where there's
(36:51):
something bigger going onthat's not in the mind.
That's what we call theunconscious.
And that's more of thepsychodynamic approach.
Is we don't always deal withthings as at the manifest level.
We like to slowly get below andsee what's going on under the
hood, if I could say it thatway.
Yeah, yeah.
Lindsay Miller (37:08):
And I think there's so much, so much to
that, because I think that atleast in my own experience,
mindfulness was a crucial skillfor me in being able to tolerate
some of those subconsciousrealizations, right?
Whether with a therapist or onmy own.
Like, oh, this is actually howI'm acting in this situation, or
(37:29):
this is how I view my myself.
And it's humbling, right?
To come to terms with a lot ofthose.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (37:35):
Yeah, just the fact that you could say
that is so impressive.
You know, this is how I'macting in this situation, right
there.
Like you're ahead of like, Idon't want to put a percentage
on it, but many people can't dothat because now you're taking a
bit of ownership, right?
Yeah.
Well, thanks.
It's hard fucking.
Well, people ask, like, can thenarcissist change?
(37:57):
That's like a common question,I get, right?
Yeah.
And the question is alwayslike, who knows?
But there are certain signsthat that suggest if they could
change or not.
And that is one of the firstsigns is can they take any
responsibility that they play arole in whatever problems are
going on in their life or intheir relationships, or that the
fact that they were fired fromtheir fourth job now, can they
(38:20):
take any responsibility at all?
And if the answer is no, thenthe prognosis for change is very
limited.
Lindsay Miller (38:27):
That's interesting.
Thanks for bringing that upbecause I was curious about like
if someone's listening rightnow and hearing a lot of
tendencies that they're very,very familiar with, you know,
and they're maybe noticing forthe first time it's just coming,
coming up through thesubconscious into their
consciousness that this is areality for them in a
relationship.
What are some of the are thereother signs or what are some of
(38:49):
the other stresses that might beaccompanying that relationship
that would help them kind ofconnect the dots?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (38:54):
Wait, so the question is if something
that was maybe not so consciousis beginning to emerge, there's
some recognition, right, thatthey slow down.
This is part of likemindfulness, right?
They're recognizing something,maybe, right?
In a more regulated state.
So the question is thensomething painful, I would
imagine.
Is that right?
(39:15):
Like what something isbeginning to emerge that's
uncomfortable.
And what do you the question iswhat do you do with that?
Or what's the next yeah?
Lindsay Miller (39:23):
I guess I was asking like three questions in
one.
So yeah, of course, first ofall, how do you start to process
that?
Or like what other dots ifthey're curious and they're
like, maybe this is, are thereany other dots they could be
connecting to help them clarifywhat they're looking at?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (39:40):
Okay, let's think about that one
first.
So the first thing you need todo is go get a drink.
No, I'm just kidding.
That's because that's whatpeople do, by the way, right?
Is like you get something toget rid of it as quickly as
possible.
So one thing you could doactually is if you have a good
friend or if you're in therapy,or you have a relationship with
(40:00):
somebody, you know, that youfeel is, you know, that there's
enough trust there, you check inwith somebody.
You can say, hey, listen, Inoticed something about myself,
or I've been thinking aboutsomething, but I don't know if
this is accurate.
Do I tend to be a burden?
Am I a burden?
Like, do you feel that I'm toomuch?
I don't know.
I'm just making that part up,Lindsay, because I don't know
(40:21):
exactly what's emerging.
But one way to do is just tocheck in with people because you
wanted to start to distinguishbetween what's a persecutory
thought.
Maybe I'm just being hard onmyself and what's a reality.
And then if you ask a couplepeople, right?
Or here's another way.
I just thought of this one.
Let's say you get into anargument with somebody, but you
(40:41):
do have this tucked away in yourmind, this burgeoning
awareness.
Then you slow down and insteadof getting angry because of what
they did to you, you can askthem, instead of why do you
behave that way?
You could say, Hey, I'm justcurious, how come you behaved?
How come you got so angry atme?
Was there something that I didthat got you upset?
That's really like if you couldjust do that, that seems very
(41:05):
simple, but that would bemonumental because now you're
checking in with somebody, butyou're checking in with
yourself, to your point,Lindsay.
Like to see, is this newawareness that I'm having, is it
accurate?
Did I do something?
And the person may say, No, no,it was just me.
I had a bad day at work and Iwas short and I got triggered.
Or they may say, Yeah, youdidn't realize it, but the way
(41:27):
you just spoke to me was socondescending, I felt
diminished.
And they say, Oh, right, that'swhat I was just thinking.
Or they may say, You're puttinga demand on me to take care of
something for you.
It's like you're taking noresponsibility.
And then you'll say, Oh, maybeI am a little bit too much.
Maybe this is the way itpresents itself.
So that's one way to do it isto check in.
(41:48):
I don't know, what do youthink?
I'm just thinking out loud whatto do with it, but what do you
think?
Lindsay Miller (41:52):
That makes sense.
Yeah.
I think that I think thatthere's so much value, like you
just said, in in referencingsomeone else, right?
Because I think sometimes wecan get stuck in, like you said,
maybe a more negative view ofourselves.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (42:05):
Yeah, like a perspiratory thought.
Lindsay Miller (42:06):
Yep.
Yeah, worry about things thataren't aren't real.
But I think being able toreference out and then also
being able to just in the momentmindfully approach an
interaction.
In our house, we like to haveredoes.
Can I get a redo on that?
You know, or so if if we'veapproached it and we get the
feedback that maybe our tone wasoff or there was some other way
we could have said something,asking to kind of repair in that
(42:30):
moment can be so supportive.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (42:32):
I like that.
I like that.
A redo.
I'm going to borrow that.
Okay.
Can I add one little thing toit?
Okay.
So to repair, one thing that Ifind that's very valuable is to
add in some recognition that youmay have hurt somebody
inadvertently, right?
So you're not just asking for aredo like to make it magically
go away, but there's somerecognition.
(42:53):
That's the validation, andthat's part of containment, that
word that I used earlier,right?
That the first step isvalidating.
So you'd have to validate that.
Oh, maybe what I said washurtful, or I imagine that made
you feel kind of crappy.
Can I get a redo on that?
I didn't mean, or I don't wantyou to ever feel that way.
So I would just add in maybethat other little piece.
Lindsay Miller (43:14):
Yeah, 100% for sure.
And I think I think that's goodto define the process more
fully because sometimes I justdo say redo.
But in our house, part of thatis the recognition, whether it's
in a look, right, or in aconversation where like, I'm
sorry, that's not the way Iwanted to show up in that
moment, or that's not how I wantto, you know, that's not the
way I want to support you.
Or, you know, did I say that ina way that was hurtful?
(43:37):
Yes.
And getting the feedback andthen saying, okay, I'm so sorry.
That's not what I wanted to do.
Could we could we replay, youknow, that moment?
Yep.
That's wonderful.
Talk to me a little bit moreabout I know we're short on
time, so I have so manyquestions.
Let's let's explore for aminute if someone was in
narcissistic household or likein a household where there were
(44:01):
narcissistic patterns, whatmight be some of the
ramifications for that person asa parent?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (44:09):
Okay.
Lindsay Miller (44:09):
Like if you experience that as a child.
Oh, yes, I got it.
I got it.
And then you are now like inyour own house parenting, and
you're you're maybe like maybethe tendencies haven't come
through quite as strong for you,but that's kind of the soup you
were simmering in for a longtime.
What might be some of thepatterns or tendencies that you
might want to be mindful of as aparent?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (44:30):
Yeah, so just again, like a prototypical
example, because this is socommon in people who have these
narcissistic traits, is theygrew up with a father who was
overly domineering, controlling,and often left them feeling
like especially in a father-sonrelationship, with a sense of
powerlessness, because thefather himself always needed to
(44:50):
feel in control.
That doesn't mean there wasnecessarily physical violence,
it doesn't need to be, it's justa constant sort of wearing away
at your confidence, right?
Yeah.
Constantly.
So no matter what you do,you're not actually doing it
right because the father alwaysknows best, right?
So now this kid grows up with afeeling of being quite
(45:13):
powerless.
So one way to deal with that isto feel quite powerful.
And by the way, that's thegrandiose sense of self again,
the structure that holds thenarcissist together.
So he has now a son later inlife or a daughter.
It doesn't even matter.
Gender doesn't matter becausethese things get repeated
anyway.
He could even do this with hiswife.
But let's say, for argument'ssake, to go back to your
(45:34):
example, he has a child.
What he does without evenknowing it is he's beginning to
assert his own dominance overand over.
Now the kid starts to act outbecause he doesn't want to feel
powerless.
So then he has to assert morepower.
And it could even get to thepoint now there's tension in the
relationship constantly, andthey don't have a good
(45:55):
relationship.
And sometimes things may evenget physical when he's trying to
force his child to do somethinghis way, but but always not
aware, thinking that my kid isjust acting out.
Look at the way my kidmisbehaves.
He's so defiant, he doesn'tlisten to anything I say, right?
So that's one way that it couldget replicated later in life,
(46:17):
is you inadvertently, withouteven knowing it, become the
father that you had, right?
In order to get rid of afeeling of being powerless,
because it'll of course it feelsmuch better to be in control,
you know.
Lindsay Miller (46:31):
Yeah, yeah.
I think again, let's justcircling back to the idea of
containment here as we close.
Like I think that storyillustrates so well the
importance of that concept,right?
Like that gentle awareness.
And I think as we work throughthose types of moments and find
(46:54):
ourselves in situations wherelike we may not have responded
to something in a way that'scongruent with how we would like
to be, or we're starting tojust have this burgeoning
awareness of how we are, youknow, how we are showing up in
relationship or with kids thatwe honor the moment of
awareness.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (47:13):
Yeah, and that's just to use that word
just for a moment, containment,right?
So in this example, I'm notsure exactly where you meant the
containment was, but what'shappening with the father, so
there were two levels with thefather, he is unable to contain
a hurtful, painful feeling.
So he gets rid of it, right?
(47:34):
He makes somebody else feelpowerless.
So that's where we come in,right, Lindsay?
Through mindfulness, or in myword, containment is that I
contain the feeling, and I do itby way of not being upset with
this guy, not saying he's doingsomething bad, but by slowly
showing him, right?
(47:55):
Of course, of course, you wouldneed to be in control of your
son because it becomes soimportant to you to feel like
you have uh like the all thepower, but we just don't know
why it's so important to haveall the power with him.
So that's an act ofcontainment.
Um I'm validating a need forhim to do something, but at the
same time, I'm trying to invitehis curiosity to think about,
(48:18):
huh?
Yeah, I wonder where this comesfrom.
Why do I need to do it thisway?
Clearly, it's not working, it'snot giving me the result that I
want.
I'm not having a goodrelationship with my son, and
that's what I really want.
Lindsay Miller (48:30):
Yeah, yeah.
And that it's like that moment,right?
It's like, again, because I'mworking in moments.
It is like the moment when youhave made a choice that is not
moving you in the direction youwant to go.
Yes, right?
Like I want a strongrelationship.
You know, in the example we'reusing here, I want a strong
relationship with my son.
This action, like when you caneven just hold a minute of the
(48:52):
dissonance between what you wantand how that's playing out
currently.
I feel like that's the powerfulspace where like you just plant
a tiny little seed of changeright there.
And you, and then you know, youlike you're saying, you get the
help that you need, or you workthrough some of the things that
are coming up for you in a safeplace, not like taking it out
(49:15):
on your right, like we're notprojecting on the kid, we're not
asking the kid to carry thislike generational burden
forward.
We're like, no, no, no, no, no,that's actually gonna stop
here, right?
That moment, that mindfulmoment, which we can then work
on, work on in a containmentsafe space with a therapist.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (49:34):
I think those are the and just just can
I add one thing, yeah.
Yeah, so much for bringing itback to moment.
I told you earlier that Ireally appreciate you describing
mindfulness as moment, andthat's all we can ask for in
terms of helping somebody again.
Back to the process of change.
That's part of the process isto have a moment, and you have
(49:55):
to respect and not get upset foranybody who's listening.
When you do this with somebodyin your life and you have a good
moment, anticipate that it willgo, it will head south, you
know, the next moment.
Okay, because that's part ofthe process, and that's what I
see, and that's why therapytakes a while, because there are
moments like this, but thenthey disappear and then they
(50:17):
reappear, and we bring we slowlybring those moments to the fore
when they're not there and weevoke a memory.
Hey, remember when you said youwanted to have, so now we're
helping them have more of thosemoments so we could build on
them.
But to your point, Lindsay, andI just want to emphasize so
nobody gets frustrated becauseit's not always an upward
trajectory of change, you know?
(50:38):
Yeah, you got it.
I I could stop there.
Oh no, I'm no, say that's yourthought.
No, no, you got it, you got it.
You know how this works.
It's just like we have momentsand then they disappear and then
they reappear, and we can't getfrustrated by the process
because that's all part of theprocess.
Lindsay Miller (50:53):
Yes, yeah.
One of my clients this week, wewere talking through a scenario
that she was in learning toride a bike.
And learning to ride a bike ischallenging, and especially when
you're little and you fall offa lot, you know?
But we were talking about howlike small gains aren't negated.
So, like taking off onetraining wheel but not being
(51:15):
able to take off both yet,that's still a win, right?
Just because you can't ridewith both and you backtrack a
little bit, that doesn't meanthat doesn't mean you don't get
to take the success of the onetraining wheel, right?
And I am in a situation whereI'm working with that like
growth mindset on a you know, ona much different level, right?
Riding a bike is very differentthan rearranging an entire
(51:37):
relationship.
And also the it's a universalprinciple, right?
Is that like when we're makingthese gains, they're gonna come
with moments where we're likestruggling.
Yes, yes.
As we continue to engage, weover time can see the progress.
But in the moment, it's oftenkind of ugly.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (51:56):
No, listen, I said it earlier.
I love your metaphors.
One was with the park, rememberCentral Park.
Now you bring in a bike,something again, very close and
dear to my heart.
So we can use that metaphor andsay, in a way, it is as
complicated as having arelationship.
Because let's say you want toride your bike really fast and
you want to get stronger on yourbike.
Same thing, it's not an upwardtrajectory.
(52:18):
There'll be moments whereyou're training and you're doing
well and you're competing andyou're winning or you're doing,
you know, and then you get sickor you get an injury.
You know, the sign of a trueathlete, like a true
relationship.
I'm not even just talking aboutsport right now, yeah, is to be
able to tolerate those momentswhere the trajectory is no
longer up, it could be down, andthat's those are the hard
(52:41):
moments, but those are the signsof a true relationship athlete,
to stay with the metaphor.
Lindsay Miller (52:47):
Yeah, yeah.
And I mean, the thing that Ilike to reiterate is that you
don't get resilience withoutthose moments, right?
There's actually not a way tobuild resilience without them.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (53:00):
That's right.
And let's but let's give thecaveat because I'm always
anxious about this.
Yeah, yeah.
We're not suggesting to anybodyto stay in a relationship where
they're not happy.
You see that's 100%.
Just in case people are like,oh, Dr.
Mazzella said if you're nothaving a good relationship,
right, you should stick with it.
No, that's not what I'm saying.
We're just talking about toLindsay's term, building up
(53:21):
resiliency, right?
Lindsay Miller (53:23):
Yeah, no, thank you for clarifying that because
I I wouldn't want to send thatmessage either.
What I what I do think is thatit in my mind that the moment of
resilience there is like doingthe hard thing of exiting,
right?
Or doing the hard thing ofchanging the relationship
through therapeutic interventionor seeking a different reality
than the one you're currentlyexperiencing, not staying in a
(53:47):
space that's not safe.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (53:49):
And that's not changing, also.
That's not changing, right?
Yeah.
No, thank you for clarifyingthat.
Of course, and thanks forarticulating that addendum to
it.
Lindsay Miller (53:57):
Do you have time for one more question?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (53:59):
Yeah, please go for it.
Lindsay Miller (54:01):
Okay.
Talk to me a little bit abouthealthy boundaries.
Because I think we've we'vespent a lot of time kind of
identifying these edges that aregoing to feel sharp and rough
and the relationships that bynature have very few boundaries.
So, what are some of the thingsyou teach your clients or you
work to like kind of educatepeople on around what a healthy
(54:22):
boundary looks like and how toconsistently kind of hold those
for yourself?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (54:27):
This is this is a really important
question.
You know, I've spoken so muchon my own podcast about
boundaries because I'm not a bigfan of them, right?
Because people sometimesmisunderstand what a boundary is
and they think that they haveto like push their loved one
away if they don't speak to themin the right way.
So I like to try to bringpeople together, but uh I'm sort
(54:49):
of rethinking it as I was justlistening to your question.
If there's any kind of verbalabuse or physical abuse in the
relationship, and my now in myperspective, that's an important
and a very important time tocreate a healthy boundary.
So just like a really quickexample.
So I treat people who, youknow, sometimes personality
(55:10):
disorders, they could bemoderately disturbed, I mean,
and quite demanding.
And there was a fellow who wastexting me in between sessions,
you know, they get very upsetsometimes.
That's a separation, by theway.
It's a very big sensitivitywith people who, you know, with
not who have these narcissistictraits.
You ended the session, I wasn'tdone yet, you don't care.
What kind of therapist are you?
(55:31):
Like a barrage of these textmessages, like pages of text
messages for days.
And finally I had to tell them,listen, you need to knock it
off.
No more text messaging.
If you have something to say,we'll book a second appointment.
You know, you come in and wework on this, but you can't
treat me this way.
So no more text messaging.
So there's a boundary.
And in my opinion, that's ahealthy boundary because back to
(55:53):
the word containment.
It's a different type ofcontainment, but this guy could
not contain his aggressivity.
It was spilling out all overthe place.
And I don't need to take that.
I mean, I don't need to beabused in that way.
I'm just trying to have apeaceful evening after I'm done
with the session.
That was a good session.
Those some sometimes are thehardest, by the way.
The good sessions.
We spoke about that in theother episode, accepting
(56:15):
something good, right?
So that would be a healthyboundary.
So for anybody who's listening,you'll have your own tolerance
for what's acceptable, right?
My tolerance tends to be alittle higher.
Like, I don't mind, you know,getting, you know, I mean,
that's part of my job is I takein a lot of this aggression or
powerlessness, made to feeluseless.
(56:35):
But we, because I know on theother end, I'm going to
eventually be able to containthat myself, hold it for them,
and give it back in a way thatwe could work on it.
But everybody has to have theirown threshold.
But an appropriate boundary inthis example would be hey,
what's going on here?
You need to cut that out.
I said to him, you need toknock it off.
I'm not doing this anymore.
(56:56):
Yeah.
Lindsay Miller (56:57):
No, thank you for sharing that.
And I really would love foreverybody to take a minute to
listen to the episode werecorded because as Anthony
mentioned, we had a really greatconversation about this idea of
not being able to accept goodthings.
Yes.
And I know we have listenerswho find themselves in that
(57:17):
situation where they really wantthe good thing mentally, but
like when it actually comes tolike finding them and they're
feeling it, that they're havingthey're having a hard time
letting it come to them fully.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (57:30):
Yeah, and we looked at like maybe two or
three different reasons why thatmay be very challenging for
again for somebody who has thesenarcissistic traits.
Hey, Lindsay, let me say onemore thing that may be helpful
to your listeners, which is interms of a boundary, yeah, this
is probably more common, whichis well, no, probably people do
get these text messages, by theway, or they get sent a bunch of
memes these days, you know,like how horrible you are.
(57:52):
But another one is a patientcame in and I left him in the
waiting area for too longbecause my clock was about 30
seconds off and he was veryhurt, but he didn't talk about
being hurt that I left him inthe waiting area for the
appointment.
Instead, he told me to changemy clock.
You know, the clock was off by30 seconds.
So after this perseverated fora few sessions, and he was
(58:13):
really surprised that I didn'tchange my clock.
I said to him, Did you reallythink I was going to change my
clock because you told me to?
See, that's a boundary.
In other words, you're notpushing me around.
You see, I'm not going to justdo something because you tell me
to do it.
Instead, we're going to talkabout it.
So let's talk about what it waslike sitting in that waiting
room for 30 seconds.
What did you imagine?
(58:34):
And then we could start gettinginto how he felt I gave another
patient the priority over himand I forgot about him.
But we couldn't do that until Itold him, What, you think I'm
going to because he was holdingout hope that he could control
me.
And if he could control me, wewouldn't have to deal.
We'd never have to talk aboutthose other painful feelings.
What?
Lindsay Miller (58:54):
Yeah, with the discomfort that he was feeling
around it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, that's such a good example.
Thank you.
Sure.
Well, this has been soinsightful for me.
Thank you so much for yourperspective and for all of the
wisdom that you shared todaywith our listeners.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (59:10):
I really thank you.
Thank you for very thoughtfulquestions.
I really appreciate it.
And I appreciate you giving methe time.
And I'm really excited to hearthat I was the first
psychodynamic psychotherapist onthe show.
Lindsay Miller (59:21):
So yes, 100%.
Can you share with ourlisteners where they can find
you?
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (59:25):
Yeah, I mean, it's really simple.
It's just everything's on mywebsite.
So if you want to look at mypod, listen to the podcast on my
video channel, all of that isat Dr.
Mazzella.
It's just D-R.
And then my last name,M-A-Z-Z-E-L-L-A.com.
And maybe Lindsay, if you coulddrop it in the show notes,
that'd be wonderful for peoplewho don't have paper and pen
handy.
(59:46):
Do people still use paper andpen?
I don't even know if they're Ido.
Lindsay Miller (59:49):
I mean, yeah, good for you, me too.
Thank you again for your time.
Dr. Anthony Mazzella (59:56):
Thank you, Lindsay.
Bye.
Lindsay Miller (59:58):
Bye.
Thanks for listening to theStress Nanny.
If you found today's episodehelpful, be sure to share it
with a friend who could use alittle extra calm in their week.
And if you have a minute, I'dlove for you to leave a review.
It helps other parents find theshow and join us on this
journey.
For more tools and support,head over to
www.thestressnanny.com.
(01:00:18):
Remember, you don't have to dostress alone.
Together we can raise kids whoknow how to navigate life with
confidence and ease.
Until next time, take a deepbreath and give yourself some
grace.
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