July 9, 2023 • 43 mins
Join me as I candidly share my decade-long grapple with binge eating and the breakthrough I found in Kathryn Hansen's book, Brain Over Binge. Kathryn, a beacon of hope for those battling binge eating and bulimia, graces the Stronger Self podcast to unravel her 18-year recovery journey. We converse intimately about binge eating, the distinctive ways it manifests, the detrimental role dieting plays, and the importance of nourishing the body adequately for sustainable weight loss and a healthy metabolism.
Kathryn and I delve into the psychology behind binge eating, discussing how often we seek reasons and excuses, inadvertently justifying the behavior. We examine therapy's benefits and potential pitfalls, and how approaching recovery with a fresh perspective can empower you to rise above binge eating. Our conversation also highlights how labeling certain habits as self-violence can open up new ways of understanding and resisting them. We draw parallels with entrepreneur Brian Johnson's insights about self-harm and share how therapy can illuminate these insights.
As we round up our conversation, we focus on the power of moderation and balance in our relationship with food, and how the freedom to eat can be as important as abstaining from certain foods. We explore how the Brain Over Binge approach helps manage urges to binge eat, emphasizing that recovery doesn't promise a perfect life, but it certainly paves the path to a healthier one. Join us on this journey to understanding and overcoming binge eating, and remember, it's okay to seek support during your recovery journey. You're not alone in this fight.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Stronger Self podcast.
I'm Mike, and together we'regoing to explore the world of
self-help books and I'll sharemy personal experiences and the
transformations that they'vesparked in me along the way.
Today we're talking about bingeeating, and binge eating is the
struggle that became thecatalyst for this podcast.
I've struggled with bingeeating for almost a decade, and
(00:23):
each time I'd give into a binge,i would try to tighten down my
dieting, only to find myselfspiraling more and more into
binge eating the harder I pushedinto dieting and fasting and
things like that.
So, in search of a solution forthat, i ran a couple of
programs to find the top 10self-help books on quitting
binge eating, and these bookswere carefully selected, based
(00:45):
on ratings and reviews of realpeople that were able to
overcome binge eating, and myhope was that, in going through
10 of these books, i'd be ableto find some actionable steps
that I could take to quit bingeeating once and for all.
I read three books with littlesuccess, and then I came to the
fourth book, which is KatherineHenson's book Brain Over Binge,
(01:06):
and this book is the one thatreally worked for me.
I know that binge eating is avery personal struggle and the
way to overcome binge eating isgoing to vary person to person,
but I honestly believe that ifyou haven't found something that
works yet, if you go throughher book by the time you finish
it, you might not ever bingeagain.
Once I started Katherine's booka couple of months ago, i
(01:29):
haven't experienced a singlebinge episode Now.
My diet hasn't been perfect.
I've overeaten, but I've neverbinged.
Even at one point I tried toinduce a binge and it led to
what she defines as a mini bingein her book.
But even in the middle of thatI felt differently and I think
differently now.
I was overwhelmed withgratitude and actually reached
(01:51):
out to Katherine and asked herif she would join me on an
episode to talk about her bookand answer some questions about
binge eating, and I'm excited totell you that I'm going to play
that interview here momentarily.
Katherine has celebrated 18years of recovery from binge
eating and bulimia and in herbook she gives you all the
gritty details of everything shewent through, from her struggle
(02:14):
with bulimia and binge eatingto going through hours and hours
and hours of counseling andtherapy ultimately what it took
for her to quit this cycle ofbinge eating and excessive
exercise.
Out of all the books that Iread, i felt like Katherine's
story struck a chord in me themost because she would do these
(02:38):
binge eating episodes and thenfollow them up with days of
excessive exercise on a bike orrunning.
And I felt like that mirroredmy own story the most, because I
would have binge eatingepisodes and then I'd follow it
with strict, extreme fasts orextreme days of working out,
(02:59):
just so that I wouldn't see anysort of fluctuation on the scale
.
I was so scared of goingbackwards and actually my binge
eating got worse the more weightI lost.
At one point I lost 80 poundsand my binge eating was the
worst.
At my lowest weight I've sincegained weight, but at my lowest
I was so scared of going back upthat I was doing these extreme
(03:22):
things to keep from it and itjust kept leading into more and
more binge eating.
But the way that Katherinebreaks down her story and then
the way that she was able toovercome binge eating is super
easy to follow.
And this interview comes inwhere I've welcomed Katherine to
the chat, i've explained thepodcast and my goals for it, how
I've been going through booksand how I got to her book, and
(03:45):
her story just resonated with me.
And because the story resonatedwith me, i was able to
immediately apply some of thethings that she was doing in her
book.
And before I had finished thebook, i had already seen
progress.
And I think if you listen toKatherine, you hear her story
and you apply it, you'll be ableto see the progress that I have
.
Here's Catherine.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I appreciate that.
It's a very big compliment andI am just really glad that it
resonated with you.
People tell me that sometimesthat, like my story is what kind
of draws them in, because yousee yourself in that and you
think, okay, i'm alone in this.
And when you read someoneelse's story you're like, oh
wait, i'm not alone.
And so many people have told methat, like, i can assure you
that you're not alone.
Anyone listening to this is notalone.
(04:27):
And, um, you know, it's kind ofhard to put my story out there,
like it's kind of embarrassing.
I was a little nervous, but nowit's been so many years that
it's fine.
But, um, yeah, i'm glad I wentforward with it and did that,
because it's helped a lot ofpeople.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Each one is such a personal journey And even I'm
going through your recoveryguide right now.
You talk about defining bingeeating and how it's like kind of
different for each person whata binge looks like.
But just my own personal storyis over the last eight years
I've tried to diet to loseweight And I've, i guess, as
(05:00):
I've progressively gotten moreintense in dieting, the more
intense the binge eating hadbecome.
And the worst of it was when Iwas doing alternate day fasting,
because I would go 40 hoursfasting And then I would because
I had all these calories Icould consume in a day.
You know, i could consume threeor 4,000 calories, based on
(05:22):
what would actually work to loseweight, but then I I couldn't
stop.
So then, whenever I stoppeddoing alternate day fasting, i
just kept bingeing every once ina while And between doing the
fasting and then also I would dothese days that you talked
about in your book where it waslike I would just try to walk
all day long or I would try towalk and work out, and walk and
work out and to keep fromgaining the weight of.
(05:46):
You know my misstep, andsometimes I'd be out eating with
people And I know most of thetime.
Binge eating, i would doprivately, but sometimes I would
just overeat.
I would get some from peopleand people would be like where
does it go?
Because you just eat so much.
But then they didn't see thenext day where I was like
starving myself or just tryingto do like just crazy amounts of
exercise, you know, and stufflike that.
(06:07):
And I feel like when I heardyour story I was like, okay, you
understand where I'm at, so letme see how you did it, and then
I should be able to do it too.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yeah, because that cycle of dieting it just sets
you up to binge.
I mean especially thestarvation you feel like fasting
is promoted as something that'shealthy, but it's really
telling your body and brain thatyou're starving.
And when that happens I talk alot about, as you know, in the
book it gives you this primitivesurvival instinct that, like
your body is trying to save you.
It's not like something iswrong with you.
(06:36):
And I think that's sort of thesaddest part in all.
This is people think, oh, i'mjust weak, i'm something's wrong
with me, i can't stick to mydiet.
But dieting is so unnatural.
We're meant to nourishourselves, we're not meant to be
in the state of starvation.
So if anyone out there is alsocaught up in this, like, just
know that there's nothing wrongwith you but that, like you
found, you do have to stop thedieting in order to get an end
(06:58):
on this, Exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Yeah, that was one of the things that I learned.
That made saying no, And Idon't want to give too much of
it away right now.
But saying no to the urges iseasier when you're, when you're
not starving yourself, And I'veactually lost more weight by
increasing the amount ofcalories I eat every day, just
so I'm like full and satiatedAnd I'm not like fighting hunger
(07:22):
plus this thing in my mind thatwon't go away that says hey,
like just start tomorrow, likejust have one more day.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah, i mean, i think for the vast majority of people
who struggle with this, eatingjust a normal diet, like a
normal nourishing amount of foodthat's ample and that's
satisfying to your body, ends upbeing a lot less calories than
what you actually eat whenyou're dieting and binging.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
So hopefully that's making sense to people.
It's like you don't want togive up the restriction because
you think, oh, i have to controlmyself, i have to eat less,
when actually eating less isleading you to eat way more.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
So it's great that you're seeing that nourishing
yourself, satisfying you knowyour hunger and all that is
actually leading you to loseweight, because you're probably
eating less overall and in amuch healthier, sustainable way.
That sets you up for like alifetime of a healthy metabolism
, instead of this starving,binging and all that.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Right, You give a brief description in the
recovery guide that I like, butjust overall to help somebody
identify okay, this is for surethis sort of binge eating thing.
What is the definition that youwould start with?
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean there's sort of aclinical definition.
I mean there is a clinicaldefinition of a binge in the DSM
, which you know.
I'll kind of briefly summarizeit.
It's eating in a specificperiod of time and they give an
example of a two hour period, anamount of food that's
definitely larger than a normalperson would eat under similar
circumstances.
So it's just like kind ofobjectively, if you saw someone
(08:46):
eating that amount you'd be likewhoa, that's way more than
anyone should be eating in thesituation.
So that's kind of an amount.
It's like a quantity, butthere's also like quality to it,
in that you eat faster thannormal.
There's a lot of shame involved.
It's usually done in secret.
A huge key in the definition isfeeling like you're out of
control.
That lack of control, i think,is probably the most key part of
(09:07):
the definition, because peoplecan eat maybe less food but
still feel completely out ofcontrol And I would still say
you know subjectively that couldbe a binge.
So, like you mentioned earlier,there is subjectivity around it
.
But when you look at thequantity, when you look at the
way of eating, it's just waymore food in a much more
abnormal way of eating than youknow people do on a daily basis.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Right.
Yeah, i felt like the majorityof my binges would be like 30
minutes, but they would just beso out of control.
Whole packs of cookies are kindof like you were saying full
boxes of cereal, just like goingnonstop.
Finding the reason to let goand go wild or whatever is also
a thing too.
There was like a mentalcomponent of like giving into
(09:49):
something rather than just beinglike, oh, I'm hungry and I want
a snack.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
It was like there was something that I had to do and
I was fighting with it And thensomething flips and you kind of
find that sort of justificationor you think, okay, well, screw
it, i'm just going to eateverything in sight.
There is that sort of mentalflip that you give in to.
What I talk about in the booksis more of that primal drive,
that primitive brain instinct tojust eat as much as possible,
(10:13):
in a way of self-protection, andthat's something we can get
into more.
But there definitely is acomponent of like not feeling
like yourself or feeling likeyou're maybe washing yourself,
do this thing that you know youdon't really want to be doing,
but kind of in the moment youfeel like it's all you want to
be doing until it's done, andthen you feel shame and guilt
and all that.
It's definitely an experiencethat I never would have
understood unless I experienceit for myself.
(10:35):
Like having these urges, givinginto them, eating this massive
amount of food, like I justnever saw that as something I
would ever do.
But when you experience theseurges for yourself, it feels
like you don't have a choice inthat moment.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, you almost feel like at least for me it felt
like out of control, like mymind and my body were fighting
with each other And like evenwhile I was doing it I would be
telling myself like, hey, youshould stop, You should really
stop, but then feeling like youcan't stop.
You know, there were quite afew moments.
The one that really kind of gotme was I got a call from my
bank one time because on the wayback from work one day I
(11:09):
stopped at like four differentfast food places and was just
eating the whole drive back.
So for like 35 minutes in thecar I stopped at every fast food
place, nearly in my bankthought it somebody stole my car
.
Yeah so they put, they put ahold on it And I didn't realize
it.
I went to work the next day Andone of the applications I use
(11:30):
for work it's like asubscription type thing And the
app wouldn't work And I was likeI don't know what the deal is.
So I, after I got done with thejob, I called and it was
because the card was shut downAnd I was like, wow, this is
like too much.
I can't.
You know, I'm like getting inmy own way and fighting with it.
So I don't know if there's a lotof guys that tend to dismiss
(11:51):
some of the things we kind of gothrough as just like I'm not
going to talk about this or thisis not a big deal, Or whenever
I was listening to a lot of thetestimonials I know there are
men in there, but I feel likepredominantly maybe women are
reaching out, or men aren'treaching out as often or as
frequently, or maybe somethingin my own mind did this for so
(12:13):
long before.
I was like, okay, I need toreally tackle this on and and
some of that takes labeling itand taking the steps forward.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, I do think there's kind of a misconception
that, oh, this is something thatonly women struggle with.
But I definitely don't thinkthat's the case.
I mean I would say I get tomajority women.
Maybe for every nine womenthere's one or two men.
You know that.
Contact me or reach out andthere is more awareness.
I think that it does occur inmales, and males do have
different standards for theirbody image.
(12:42):
And dieting comes into play andthe same reaction that happens,
you know, i re identify.
I mean this is your primalbrain.
This is a deep part of yourbrain that is designed to
protect you and that is designedto.
It also builds habits.
I mean once we do it once, evenif you do stop dieting, like it
does become a habit if it getsrewarded.
Binging releases pleasurablebrain chemicals.
(13:04):
This gets wired into your brainSo like it doesn't matter your
gender.
This is all like a deep part ofwho we all are.
The formation of habits andgetting quote unquote addicted
to things.
This is like a universalproblem.
So yeah, it's good that you'respeaking out and sharing your
journey, because I think it willhelp a lot of other men as well
.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
What do you think the common misconceptions are with
like binge eating?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
I think the word binge has become a common term
in society.
Like we binge watch TV shows,we know it's become this word
that I think it almost likedismisses the struggle that
binge eaters have, becausesomeone might eat like five
cookies and say, oh, i bingedand like meanwhile we're over
here eating a whole pack of youknow like massive amounts of
(13:47):
food and cookies and more foodafter that.
So I think when people say, oh,i binge, when they ate just like
a normal dessert, it sort oftakes away a little from the
struggle.
So I think that's amisconception.
That like a binge is a clinicalthing.
That's massive amounts of foodand that makes people feel awful
and causes terribleconsequences in their lives.
It's not just like a littleovereating.
So I think that's a big one.
I think another one is probablycould take up the rest of the
(14:09):
show.
So I'll try to be brief is thatit's a way to cope like?
it is a way to cope with lifeAnd it's kind of the path I was
led down in therapy.
And I'm not saying like thereis some indirect connections to
problems and stressors and allthat And we can definitely talk
about that, but I think it'sjust really built up like even
if you go to WebMD or some ofthese big like websites that
(14:30):
explain health problems, it'slike, oh, binge eating is a way
to cope with problems And I justreally think that can justify
it and create reasons for doingit.
When it is like a primalinstinct, it's a habit, and when
we give ourselves all thesereasons like, oh, i need this
because I've had a hard day orbecause my life is so hard, then
it just kind of gives us morereasons to give in.
So I think the coping mechanismtheory is it's a complicated
(14:51):
one, but I think it is aproblematic misconception.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Right, that was a big part of your story of going to
different counselors andtherapists and things like that,
and they were looking for aroot cause.
But, like you're saying, evenin my own life people would say
like, oh, you're just stresseating or something like that,
and stress could be an excuse togive in.
But I binge on happy days too.
(15:15):
You know, sometimes that's anexcuse, sometimes like hey, i'm
celebrating, and then it justleads into something crazy too.
So that is a big one that we'relooking for reasons other than
to just label this as an urge.
And you know, if somebody cutsme off in traffic and I get
angry, like I could have theurge to retaliate in some crazy
way, but I'm going to fight thaturge, i'm not going to do
(15:36):
anything like that.
And this is just another one ofthose intrusive sort of urges
that over time, we need to learnto turn off or ignore.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
In a recent interview you had mentioned, it's 18
years now, right That?
you've been recovered frombinge eating.
Has your perspective changedover time, from when you first
kind of started the recoveryprocess to where you are now?
Speaker 2 (15:58):
If you go back to like when I first started being
introduced to therapy and I wastaught all this about, it's a
way to cope and you're stuffingdown your feelings and you're
trying to meet an emotional needand all these things like, yes,
that perspective has completelychanged And because that
perspective changed, that's howI recovered, like I was able to
reframe everything and see that,okay, yeah, I had problems,
(16:21):
there was issues in myupbringing, like, but that's not
the cause.
I mean, the cause was dieting.
The cause was the fact that Istarved my body.
It created massive, you know,urges to eat massive amounts of
food and that created a habitthat perpetuated, you know, for
many years.
So once I was able to see it inthat way, it took all like the
mystery out of recovery.
It's before I thought, oh, ihad to learn to cope with
(16:41):
depression, i had to learn tocure anxiety, i had to resolve
everything from my past and thatjust like it was fine.
All that stuff is great, liketo improve your life, but it
never really helped with thebinging.
So I was able to target thebinging.
I was able to see, like the waythe brain was creating the
urges But, like you said,realize, okay, this is just an
urge, this is not me, This isnot what I actually want.
So, like that perspectivemassively changed As far as like
(17:04):
what changed since I recover,like since I was able to use
that brain based information,since I was able to rewire my
brain.
I think the biggest perspectivesince I wrote brain over binge
which I wrote a second editionlast year which I think reflects
this a little better is thatyou know I've come around to
realize that my approach is notincompatible with therapy, it's
not incompatible with otherapproaches.
(17:27):
I feel like I was a little toolike harsh on therapy in my
first book because I felt like,oh gosh, this wasted so many
years of my life I was, you know, led to believe that I needed
to solve everything before Irecovered.
But, like people can work onother issues and work on
stopping the urges, andsometimes the two can compliment
each other, in that you needlike a higher part of yourself,
(17:47):
a higher part of your brain tooverride these urges, and the
more you can sort of build upthat higher self, like by
finding purpose or by, you know,solving some problems, it just
can help you.
It really can't hurt you at allAs long as you realize, like I
don't need to be perfect to stopbinging, like so, building up
yourself, helping yourself intherapy and stuff like that.
I think, provided you have theright perspective, it can only
(18:09):
kind of benefit you in certainways.
Now you know, of course, ifit's giving you excuses and
making you think you have tosolve every issue you've ever
had to stop binging, then that'snot helpful.
But I think that's probably thebiggest perspective is I think
that everyone is different.
Bring in whatever you feel likewould help you, even if that's
therapy, even if that's, youknow, whatever you feel like you
need.
So I hope that's making sense.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah for sure.
I think the most of what I gotfrom just the book, because I
think I went through the newestedition or one of the newer
editions.
I cheated, i went through theaudio books of all these.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
So yeah, it was I reading the audio book.
Yes, was it me.
Yeah, okay, then that's thenewer one.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Okay, great Yeah, so I went through that one, but it
felt like to me.
It's like you think throughtherapy and all these internal
issues that you have to slay,like these nine dragons, instead
of just the one that is.
I just need to learn to ignorethe urges or label the urges as
some primitive thing.
Have you ever heard of theBrian Johnson guy, the blueprint
guy?
Speaker 2 (19:04):
I feel like it sounds familiar, but I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
He created some platform or something called
Braintree, sold it to Venmo,made millions and millions of
dollars, and now what he does ishe spends all his time and
money on reversing his age.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
I've not heard of that.
Well, i kind of watch his stuffbecause it's just so intriguing
.
But one of the things that hesaid recently and I think this
kind of ties to what we'retalking about is he was talking
about how we as humans try to doour best to avoid violence.
And he's just saying, in whathe's doing, he's trying to label
these habits, like binge eating, for example, as violence
(19:40):
against yourself, and it's likewe would never want to harm a
loved one or even some peoplethat have irritated us.
we would still not want to harmthem.
yet We are harming ourselves.
So if we can label in a way likeit's different from just going
like, oh, this is the lowerbrain talking or a primitive
brain But in a way he's sayinglike if we can label certain
(20:00):
things as violence againstourselves going crazy on pizza
or whatever then we wouldn't doit either.
If we could have establishedthose, and I thought that was
interesting as well, because Iwas like, yeah, somebody cut me
off in traffic.
example again, i would neverlike responding violence to
someone else, but why would Irespond in any circumstance
towards violence to myself?
(20:20):
you know, just an intrusivethought.
why would I let that then helpme do something violent against
myself.
So I thought that wasinteresting.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
I think it is too, And it kind of brings up for me
the fact that when therapy iskind of not helpful, it does the
opposite, in that it teachespeople that you're binging to
soothe yourself.
You're binging because it'shelping you in some way.
You're binging because you'renot getting your needs met
otherwise and then you need this.
So like it almost gives youthis idea that it's the opposite
of violence, that it's likesomething helpful until you can,
(20:50):
you know, find other ways tosoothe yourself, until you can
put like reframing it as no,this is violence.
You have to say no to theseurges And once you do, yeah, you
can find many other ways tosoothe yourself.
But just having the idea thatit's helpful in some way, I
think, is actually a reallyharmful idea.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
For sure.
I know for me, and even in yourkind of story too, it's like
the more you struggle withsomething, the more you
internalized it and backed upaway from people.
You started adding distance inrelationships and things like
that.
What type of advice do you havefor people out there who are
maybe feeling isolated or alonein their journey?
How can they bring peoplealongside them that love them,
(21:29):
that can help encourage them toget past this hurdle?
Speaker 2 (21:33):
That's a hard question.
It's a good question, i think,because it is so isolating, like
you're so ashamed.
you know there may be weightchanges that you feel like you
don't even look like yourself,you just want to hide.
Of course, when you're eatingyou want to hide.
So it definitely is isolatingand that just kind of
perpetuates everything Andultimately you are the only one
who can say no to those urgeswhen they come up, no matter
(21:55):
what support you have in yourlife, no matter who else is
around.
like it ultimately does comedown to you.
So like I think having thatself empowerment of like when
your brain produces an urge,like you're the only one who can
decide to act or not act on it,but like having the support, is
helpful to people And for somepeople more than others.
I tend to be, like veryintroverted And even though the
(22:17):
isolation was tough during thebinge eating, i feel like my
recovery.
ultimately I did do it on myown in the end.
So knowing that you can do iton your own and that's an option
, great.
But other people do need supportAnd I do think it's helpful to
talk to people you can trust, tohave sort of plans in place
where you can reach out.
That's all very helpful.
We at Brain Over Binge I havelearned over the years that this
(22:39):
is something that people need.
So I now have a coach workingfor me, coach Shuli, who does a
brain over binge group.
she's on the forum every day.
she has group calls.
So, like that's definitelysomething you can look into as
well.
There's groups, there's support, you know.
so I would just say it's anindividual thing for every
person And, like, if you feellike you're comfortable on your
own and you want to do this onyour own, that absolutely is
doable.
(22:59):
But there's absolutely nothingwrong with getting support And
it's something that a lot ofpeople need.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Let's flip it Then.
what is a loved one to do ifthey know that someone they love
is struggling with?
this or they're walking throughrecovery of binge eating.
What's a way that loved onescan support someone walking
through that?
Speaker 2 (23:21):
It can sometimes be a bit of a fine line because you
know, if the loved one kind ofoversteps and tries to control
and tries to tell them what toeat and it's critical of what
they eat and things like that,that can almost have a counter
effect.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Right So.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I do think the loved one.
it's best if the loved oneoffers their support without
being controlling about it.
You let me know what you need.
in certain moments I'mavailable to you.
Please reach out And it's justsort of be that presence of
support without telling them howthey should eat or trying to
control the situation in any way.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Did you ever get a few weeks in and slip and kind
of stumble And then what, whatare some positive things?
you would have to tell yourselfto keep from spiraling out of
control.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Well, when I first started applying sort of this
brain-based ideas and I got itand what you know from the book,
from a basis of it was fromJack Trimpe's Rational Recovery
and it was kind of analternative to Alcoholics
Anonymous.
It was for alcohol, drugaddiction, but I applied it to
the eating disorder and he wasreally big on like this is in
your brain, it's a habit, it'snot a disease, it's not a coping
(24:27):
mechanism and you can, you know, stop.
So once I actually appliedthose ideas, kind of in my own
way, based on my own struggle, ionly had two other times where
I slipped and binged.
So like this is when I'm usingthese brain-based ideas.
The first time it happened, i,like in the past, i would have
been like trying to figure outwhat stress caused it.
I would have been trying tofigure out like what I could
(24:48):
have done differently in my day,what I could have eaten
differently to prevent it,things like that.
But but when this actuallyhappened, after learning about
the brain, i was like, oh, ijust followed an urge, that's
all a binge is is following anurge.
I got caught up in it.
I believed temporarily that itwas what I wanted or needed and
I acted on it.
So, like I didn't make itcomplicated, i was like, okay, i
(25:09):
followed the urge time to moveon.
What thought kind of led me tostep back into that primal brain
and think that's what I wanted?
Like I kind of analyzed, like,what thoughts led me there and
realized, okay, next time I havethose thoughts, i'll just
dismiss them.
So I just didn't make a bigdeal of it, i think.
And I think that's really,really helpful for people to
just say okay, i acted on theurge, what can I do differently
(25:31):
next time?
The last time I binged it wasalmost like and you read about
this in the book, i'm sure tooit was like almost a choice.
I heard those thoughts.
I knew they weren't me, i knewthey were just the habit, their
old programming, and I was like,okay, but I'm going to act on
it anyway.
And I binged and it was just notthe same.
I was just once I like had thatchoice.
it just kind of becameimpossible to binge and I never
(25:52):
binged again.
So those were the two slips Ihad, using this brain-based
perspective.
Prior to that, i had so manyslips and it was all just like
an endless cycle of trying tofigure out what triggered it and
trying to control thecircumstances in my life, trying
to control my feelings, tryingto like do all these things when
really I just the problem wasthe urge.
And once I realized the problemwas the urge that allowed me to
(26:15):
target it and allowed me toovercome slips a lot better than
I had in the past, wheneverything just was too
complicated.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
After I got through your book, I mean, once I
started reading, I startedapplying, but it was like I kind
of got through it And I wouldhave like these little
micro-binges or something likethat.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yeah, probably just mini binges, Mini binges Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
It was like once I kind of unlocked that part of my
brain.
Like you said, i couldn'treally just go crazy.
Like there was something thatwas different and it kind of
shocked me because it wassimilar to how you said.
Kind of.
The last one was where it'slike I'm sure it's not
impossible for me to binge thesame way I used to, but now if I
(26:56):
got really hungry then I couldeat like maybe one piece of
chocolate or maybe have a coupleof chips while I'm cooking my
food And it's like one of these,like I couldn't say no to the
piece of chocolate but I didn'teat like a whole bag of
chocolate or like I'm going toeat every single Mr Goodbar in
this bag or I'm going to.
You know, i feel like now, justfrom knowing even though I
(27:18):
don't feel like I'm applying aton of pressure on that point I
feel like I don't binge like Iused to, just because it's just
part of knowing now what it is.
The ability to label it, what itis, really unlocked something
and I saw like immediateprogress which was different
from some of the other booksthat I went through, where there
(27:39):
was an extreme amount ofsetting up all these things in
your life and making a list ofthese are okay, these are not
okay, like all these like rigidmoral labels to certain foods
like this is good food, this isbad food, this is binge inducing
food, this isn't.
I feel like there was less ofthat with your book.
(28:00):
I immediately just picked it upand was like, okay, well, this
makes sense, like it's just kindof happening on its own in a
weird way.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Yeah, i think that's amazing and I like your example
with the chocolate because, likeyou mentioned, in some of the
books about eating disorders andbinge eating, it's like, okay,
you have to stay away fromtrigger foods, you have to stay
away from sugar or flour orthings like that that could, you
know, potentially be addicting.
And, yes, like certain foodsare more stimulating to the
pleasure centers in our brainthan others, like that's a fact,
(28:27):
but that doesn't mean we'repowerless against them.
So, like you've seen foryourself that you can just eat
one piece of chocolate and theremight be thoughts and feelings
of wanting more, but it'spossible to feel that, to
experience it and to stop.
You know, and people do havedifferent reactions to sugar and
different types of foods, andthat's kind of where, you know,
a lot of my thinking has evolvedtoo.
Is that, yes, like some peoplemay need to give up certain
(28:49):
foods for a certain time If theyfeel like they can't disconnect
from that urge, if they feellike it's too powerful, then I
don't think it's a bad thing,but I think that, overall, like
we should have a mindset ofpower over foods, like it's not
the foods that are controllingus, like we decide ultimately
what we put in our mouths,despite whatever we're feeling,
thinking, experiencing likephysical cravings, things like
(29:12):
that.
But then don't take that to meanyou'll ever eat perfectly Right
.
I mean I follow tons ofcravings, like it's definitely
not binge, like not even close,but like if I want a dessert, i
have a dessert.
I mean not all the time.
Sometimes I'm like, nah, idon't really want it right now,
but like I eat junk food, ifollow cravings, things like
that.
So I think when we startthinking, okay, i don't want to
follow these primitive urgesspecifically I'm talking about
(29:34):
binging and like reallyproblematic forms of
over-reading.
I'm not saying, don't followany urges to eat a piece of
chocolate while you're cooking,like that's totally fine if you
want to do that, you know.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, i think that this weird sort of labeling of
good and bad foods and I mean weknow they're healthier foods
and these don't for the caloricdensity these things don't give
us as much as these things dofor the volume or however, but
it's kind of part of living too.
They exist.
(30:03):
I believe you have children.
I have children.
on special days I want to be ata place where I'm healthy
enough to go have ice cream withthem if that's what we're going
to do, and I feel like theserigid like nose.
it's more of my ability to havea cake in the house and only
have one piece at the party andthen not eat the rest of it at
(30:23):
night.
That's more the ability I wantthan the rigid like I can't have
cake because I don't know if Ihave one piece I'll have a
million pieces or I'll eat thewhole thing.
I think being afraid of thosekind of robs you of other joys
in life.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah, i absolutely agree and everyone has to find
that balance that works for them.
But, yeah, just having thefreedom to eat And I think that
when we put foods off limits itmakes them more appealing Like
once you do have that allowingmindset of like I know I can
have this whenever I want, youknow, in moderation, in a way
that works for me, it just takesthe appeal away so that you
don't feel like, oh my gosh, ihave to eat all this now because
(30:58):
I never get to have it again,because you know you're you can
have it again.
So it's taking that you know,sort of forbidden fruit away
from these foods makes you eatless of them overall.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Makes you do one scoop instead of like three or
like.
Oh I know, if I do this today Ican't do it ever again, So I'm
going to eat as much as Ipossibly can.
You know, that was like the lieI would tell myself quite a bit
as well.
If I'm going to give in today,then I better get everything I
want.
I better be able to stop atthis one place that I love the
fried chicken at.
I better, you know, on the wayhome, get this thing too,
(31:29):
because tomorrow, none of it, Ican't have any of it.
But the thought that if it fitswithin my nutritional strategy,
I can have this thing if I wantit on this day or whatever that
day.
Do you feel like eating theright amount of food, or eating
enough food?
Do you feel like that is a huge?
I know it was in my life, butis it a huge speed bump for
(31:52):
people to kind of fall intobinge eating, restricting not
just the type but the amount aswell?
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Yeah, I mean, I do think restricting the amount is
like the biggest thing, Like,yeah, the type can cause
problems too.
But when I started dieting,there was this mindset of like
if I'm eating anywhere close to2000 calories, like that's way
too much.
So I was trying to get like wayunder that, way under that,
like the furthest under that Icould go, the better.
And now it's like I think ifyou're eating under 2000
calories, that's not enough,Like especially for for men and
(32:22):
for people with larger bodyframes and people are active.
I mean, I don't think I evereat less than 2000 calories a
day And I think that thecomposition of what I eat
changed, Like I feel like overtime.
I've realized my body needsmore healthy fat, more proteins
and they can be more caloriedense and things like that.
It's a mental hurdle A lot ofpeople have to overcome to start
eating enough.
I call it in my book, I call iteating adequately.
(32:42):
You have to eat adequately, notperfectly, not optimally, not
healthy all the time, but youhave to eat enough decent food,
like in terms of quality, interms of quantity, and I think
quantity is actually even moreimportant than quality,
especially early on in recovery.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Do you think that if you're really struggling with
binge eating, do you think thatintermittent fasting is
something you should wait on Ifyou're, if you're struggling?
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah, i mean, that's definitely, i feel, like a
loaded question, but like, yes,i do think it's something you
should wait on, if not avoidforever.
Yeah, i don't know, i, andmaybe just some people, aren't
set up for it.
Like I was always someone likeas a young kid I was very active
and I always ate a lot, ate alot often, like just felt like I
needed it.
I was never overweight oranything And I still feel like
(33:27):
I've tried like dude, i thoughtI was healthy.
I was like, okay, i'm not goingto eat breakfast till like 9 am
, like just to give my body alittle more time to like rest
and digest and things like that.
And like I feel like it droveme crazy.
Like even this was like probably14 years after recovery And I
don't think it was anythingdangerous, like I don't think I
was in any danger of going backdown a dangerous path, but I
felt like it just wasn't likewhy am I doing this?
(33:47):
I'm hungry at 7 am?
Yeah, i don't know.
So I feel like you stretch thatthe way I felt in those two
hours a stretch that over.
People are doing this for manyhours And, like you said, like
40 hours or something I can onlyimagine, like the havoc this is
causing.
For what benefit?
like the stress and thecortisol that you're creating
with all this stress, like Ifeel like that offsets a lot of
(34:09):
the quote unquote healthbenefits that people promote.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Right.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
And I just think with binging it's like you already
know you're a person susceptibleto kind of fasting and feasting
and having this terrible cycle.
So you know that about yourself.
So like, why put yourself inthat situation?
Like maybe for some people whoare not susceptible, who have
certain health conditions whocan do this?
people have differentphysiology So maybe for some
people it can be helpful in somesituations.
but I think anyone susceptibleto binging and harmful dieting,
(34:35):
i just think it's something toavoid.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Yeah, that was a selfish question, just because I
found myself really strugglingwith it.
You know, that was the thingthat you know.
You hear all these things.
Some of there's benefits tofasting, but it's so funny that
that's kind of the same part ofour brain that we're like yeah,
you know our ancestors, they,you know, some days they'd be
out hunting a meal and theywouldn't eat one day and then
(34:59):
they would overeat the next day.
And you know, and I felt likefor me, the longer I kept trying
to push back eating, the more Ijust thought about eating all
day long And I made some reallybad decisions on what I ate for
lunch.
Compared to if I just atewhatever a bowl of oatmeal or
something at breakfast, that's200 calories.
I'm not obsessed with over foodand I'll have a lighter lunch
(35:22):
and no big deal.
I can focus on working and notlike saying no to hunger pains
all day.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
So and I mean our ancestors didn't have the option
Like.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
I think if they would have had the option to eat they
would have eaten.
For sure Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
We have so much temptations, i just don't know
if our world is set up forpeople to do this.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Yeah, have you faced, because I feel like they're
even in your book you kind oftalk about there's two mindsets
And even in just a few booksthat I've read it can go all
over the place.
There's like correlatingapplications, but they're all
over the map.
Do you face any sort ofresistance to this super logical
way of treating binge eating?
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, I think less than Ithought I might have.
Like, i feel like I definitelyhave more positive feedback from
people saying, wow, this reallyempowered me, this really
helped me.
You know, see everythingdifferently.
I would think the biggest one Iget, which I totally understand,
is that, like, okay, somepeople don't have control, like
some people actually can't usethe power of their higher brain
(36:21):
And I try to set that up in mybook saying, like, okay, this is
not for people with othermental disorders that affect
that self-control function.
Like this is not for peoplewith, like, severe trauma or
severe depression or things that, like you're not actually
accessing your higher brain.
So, yeah, i think that that's afair criticism And I try to
address that, you know.
So, if you're someone who, likeyou're trying this and you feel
(36:42):
like you absolutely cannot stopyour actions, then maybe
there's something else going on.
I mean, even people with, like,severe ADHD have trouble
accessing the self-controlfunction.
So you know it's definitelysomething.
If you want to use the brainover binge approach, there may
be some other things that youneed in addition to that.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Yeah for sure.
There's another book to I'veread.
I think maybe it's called ThePower of Habit.
It's like a yellow book And ittalks about a specific
individual who had short-termmemory loss and he ended up
gaining a ton of weight becauseof the habitual side of just
eating meals at the same time.
(37:19):
So he would forget that he justate breakfast and then, out of
habit, 45 minutes later he wouldgo eat breakfast again.
That's an extreme case, but ina weird way it does apply kind
of to what you're saying, whichis like we've just developed
over time this habit of bingeeating that we do even if we
feel full after a meal orsomething like that.
(37:41):
We just push over because it isa trigger or a cue, then a
response and a reward, and justover and over again.
The more we train neuralpathways in our brain, we just
create these ridges that it'seasy to get into, this groove
that you can go down.
I thought that was interestingtoo, that I had read that book
(38:01):
quite a while ago and then itwas brought to mind whenever I
was reading yours that there arejust so many things that go
into if we can just be mindfulof what's the cue that causes us
to do this thing.
You've done a good job in yourbook of saying here's how you
label this thing as an urge.
Probably the most profoundthing out of your book for me
(38:22):
was just going the only thingthat you're fixing is you're
just getting rid of the urge.
You're not doing anything pastthat.
I'm butchering how you wordedit, but that's basically like
the one thing that I immediatelytook.
Like as soon as I heard thatsort of message, i was like, wow
, yeah, that's really it.
It's just this urge, and thenI'm just satisfying that urge,
(38:45):
but there's nothing else goingon.
I don't need this.
It's not offering me any sortof benefits other than it's just
prolonging.
The next time I have this urgeIt's just turning it off for now
and then it'll turn it back onagain later, and that, i think
immediately.
Whenever I heard that, i waslike okay, this just changed
everything for me.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Yeah for sure.
I mean, I had a similarexperience in that I thought
recovery meant I was going tobecome this like happy person
and, you know, be able to copewith everything.
Great, And like.
I'm not.
18 years later, I'm still not.
So, like when you recover, notonly is the urge the cause of
each and every binge.
When you recover you're justgetting rid of the urge.
You're just getting rid of thispainful behavior that comes
(39:27):
from following the urge And itdoesn't mean your life will be
perfect.
And I think some people think,like they maybe don't binge for
a day and they still have allthese problems and they're still
feel sad and they still feellonely And like, yeah, that's
life, It's life And the or thebinging was not helping at all.
So, like realizing that lifewon't be perfect after recovery,
it prevents you from likethinking that a binge would
somehow help you in anysituation.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
That was probably my huge takeaway.
Or the light switch, that kindof flipped, what is like one
thing that listeners can likeimmediately apply if they listen
to this and they're struggling.
That's the first step.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Yeah, i mean as far as where to start, like, i think
a lot of times people arelooking for, like, specific
strategies, like do this, dothis, and you know, sure,
there's strategies that helppeople, but I really break it
down to two things You have todismiss the urges to binge and
you have to eat adequately, eatenough food.
So, like, whatever you can doto bring yourself toward one or
(40:25):
both of those goals is extremelyhelpful place to start.
How can you start learning todismiss the urges to binge?
Well, like well, a lot of whatwe talked about here in this
show.
You can learn to see themdifferently, learn to see them
as a primal part of your brain,learn to see them as not you.
Okay, what can you do to eatadequately?
Can you try to not fast?
Can you add more to your meals,things like that?
So, like, getting yourself toone or both of those goals goals
(40:47):
is great.
I do have a free ebook.
If anyone would like to startwith dismissing urges, i have a.
If you go to brainoverbinchcom,you can download a free ebook
that is all about dismissing theurges.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
So that's like one place I can specifically give
you to start if you'reinterested in my approach, so I
hope that's okay to mention thatas well, absolutely, yeah, in
fact, as we wrap up, i want tothank you so much for taking the
time to meet with me and chatabout these things.
What are some of the resourcesyou offer?
I know you have a podcast, youhave the book and the recovery
guide.
Just rattle off some of themost beneficial resources that
(41:20):
can be paid or whatever the casemay be, but what are some
people who are?
if you believe that you'rereally struggling with this, you
really want to get over this,catherine, give them some of
your resources that you have outthere available.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Yeah, thank you for the opportunity to do that And I
do have everything atbrainoverbinchcom.
Like I mentioned, the freeebook can be a place to start.
I have the two books, like yousaid brain over binge and the
brain over binge recovery guide.
Brain over binge is my personalstory and the brain over binge
recovery guide is more of theself help conversion of the book
.
I have coaching.
I don't personally do thecoaching.
I have coach Julie, who'sawesome and she recovered after
(41:54):
40 years and in a different waya little bit than me, so she
provides like a differentperspective.
So she does one on one coachinggroup coaching.
I'm also doing a webinar comingup.
I'm not sure when you'rereleasing this, but you go to
brainoverbinchcom For a slashwebinar to find out any
opportunities, sort of toconnect with me directly.
I think that's about it.
Oh, i have online course.
That's the last thing.
I have a very inexpensiveonline course that self-paced
(42:15):
like.
If you're not someone who needsthat personal support with
coaching, you can do aself-paced online course And
that's also at brainoverbinchcom.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
That's great.
Thank you so much, and thankyou for taking the time to
answer these questions and hangout with me for a sec.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Yeah, thank you so much, Mike.
I appreciate you having me andsharing your own story.
I think it's you know it'svulnerable and it's going to be
helpful to a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Stronger
Self.
I want to give you a little bitof time to explore Catherine's
work with brain over binge overon her website or her book or
the recovery guide.
Take some time, look into thatAnd on the next episode I'll
break down the concepts thatI've used that have really
worked for me and how I applythem and how you may be able to
(42:58):
apply them to quit binge eatingfor good.
I appreciate you joining me andI hope to see you on the next
episode of the Stronger Selfpodcast.
Welcome to the Stronger Self podcast.
I'm Mike, and together we'regoing to explore the world of
self-help books and I'll sharemy personal experiences and the
transformations that they'vesparked in me along the way.
Today we're talking about bingeeating, and binge eating is the
struggle that became thecatalyst for this podcast.
I've struggled with bingeeating for almost a decade, and
(00:23):
each time I'd give into a binge,i would try to tighten down my
dieting, only to find myselfspiraling more and more into
binge eating the harder I pushedinto dieting and fasting and
things like that.
So, in search of a solution forthat, i ran a couple of
programs to find the top 10self-help books on quitting
binge eating, and these bookswere carefully selected, based
(00:45):
on ratings and reviews of realpeople that were able to
overcome binge eating, and myhope was that, in going through
10 of these books, i'd be ableto find some actionable steps
that I could take to quit bingeeating once and for all.
I read three books with littlesuccess, and then I came to the
fourth book, which is KatherineHenson's book Brain Over Binge,
(01:06):
and this book is the one thatreally worked for me.
I know that binge eating is avery personal struggle and the
way to overcome binge eating isgoing to vary person to person,
but I honestly believe that ifyou haven't found something that
works yet, if you go throughher book by the time you finish
it, you might not ever bingeagain.
Once I started Katherine's booka couple of months ago, i
(01:29):
haven't experienced a singlebinge episode Now.
My diet hasn't been perfect.
I've overeaten, but I've neverbinged.
Even at one point I tried toinduce a binge and it led to
what she defines as a mini bingein her book.
But even in the middle of thatI felt differently and I think
differently now.
I was overwhelmed withgratitude and actually reached
(01:51):
out to Katherine and asked herif she would join me on an
episode to talk about her bookand answer some questions about
binge eating, and I'm excited totell you that I'm going to play
that interview here momentarily.
Katherine has celebrated 18years of recovery from binge
eating and bulimia and in herbook she gives you all the
gritty details of everything shewent through, from her struggle
(02:14):
with bulimia and binge eatingto going through hours and hours
and hours of counseling andtherapy ultimately what it took
for her to quit this cycle ofbinge eating and excessive
exercise.
Out of all the books that Iread, i felt like Katherine's
story struck a chord in me themost because she would do these
(02:38):
binge eating episodes and thenfollow them up with days of
excessive exercise on a bike orrunning.
And I felt like that mirroredmy own story the most, because I
would have binge eatingepisodes and then I'd follow it
with strict, extreme fasts orextreme days of working out,
(02:59):
just so that I wouldn't see anysort of fluctuation on the scale
.
I was so scared of goingbackwards and actually my binge
eating got worse the more weightI lost.
At one point I lost 80 poundsand my binge eating was the
worst.
At my lowest weight I've sincegained weight, but at my lowest
I was so scared of going back upthat I was doing these extreme
(03:22):
things to keep from it and itjust kept leading into more and
more binge eating.
But the way that Katherinebreaks down her story and then
the way that she was able toovercome binge eating is super
easy to follow.
And this interview comes inwhere I've welcomed Katherine to
the chat, i've explained thepodcast and my goals for it, how
I've been going through booksand how I got to her book, and
(03:45):
her story just resonated with me.
And because the story resonatedwith me, i was able to
immediately apply some of thethings that she was doing in her
book.
And before I had finished thebook, i had already seen
progress.
And I think if you listen toKatherine, you hear her story
and you apply it, you'll be ableto see the progress that I have
.
Here's Catherine.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I appreciate that.
It's a very big compliment andI am just really glad that it
resonated with you.
People tell me that sometimesthat, like my story is what kind
of draws them in, because yousee yourself in that and you
think, okay, i'm alone in this.
And when you read someoneelse's story you're like, oh
wait, i'm not alone.
And so many people have told methat, like, i can assure you
that you're not alone.
Anyone listening to this is notalone.
(04:27):
And, um, you know, it's kind ofhard to put my story out there,
like it's kind of embarrassing.
I was a little nervous, but nowit's been so many years that
it's fine.
But, um, yeah, i'm glad I wentforward with it and did that,
because it's helped a lot ofpeople.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Each one is such a personal journey And even I'm
going through your recoveryguide right now.
You talk about defining bingeeating and how it's like kind of
different for each person whata binge looks like.
But just my own personal storyis over the last eight years
I've tried to diet to loseweight And I've, i guess, as
(05:00):
I've progressively gotten moreintense in dieting, the more
intense the binge eating hadbecome.
And the worst of it was when Iwas doing alternate day fasting,
because I would go 40 hoursfasting And then I would because
I had all these calories Icould consume in a day.
You know, i could consume threeor 4,000 calories, based on
(05:22):
what would actually work to loseweight, but then I I couldn't
stop.
So then, whenever I stoppeddoing alternate day fasting, i
just kept bingeing every once ina while And between doing the
fasting and then also I would dothese days that you talked
about in your book where it waslike I would just try to walk
all day long or I would try towalk and work out, and walk and
work out and to keep fromgaining the weight of.
(05:46):
You know my misstep, andsometimes I'd be out eating with
people And I know most of thetime.
Binge eating, i would doprivately, but sometimes I would
just overeat.
I would get some from peopleand people would be like where
does it go?
Because you just eat so much.
But then they didn't see thenext day where I was like
starving myself or just tryingto do like just crazy amounts of
exercise, you know, and stufflike that.
(06:07):
And I feel like when I heardyour story I was like, okay, you
understand where I'm at, so letme see how you did it, and then
I should be able to do it too.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yeah, because that cycle of dieting it just sets
you up to binge.
I mean especially thestarvation you feel like fasting
is promoted as something that'shealthy, but it's really
telling your body and brain thatyou're starving.
And when that happens I talk alot about, as you know, in the
book it gives you this primitivesurvival instinct that, like
your body is trying to save you.
It's not like something iswrong with you.
(06:36):
And I think that's sort of thesaddest part in all.
This is people think, oh, i'mjust weak, i'm something's wrong
with me, i can't stick to mydiet.
But dieting is so unnatural.
We're meant to nourishourselves, we're not meant to be
in the state of starvation.
So if anyone out there is alsocaught up in this, like, just
know that there's nothing wrongwith you but that, like you
found, you do have to stop thedieting in order to get an end
(06:58):
on this, Exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Yeah, that was one of the things that I learned.
That made saying no, And Idon't want to give too much of
it away right now.
But saying no to the urges iseasier when you're, when you're
not starving yourself, And I'veactually lost more weight by
increasing the amount ofcalories I eat every day, just
so I'm like full and satiatedAnd I'm not like fighting hunger
(07:22):
plus this thing in my mind thatwon't go away that says hey,
like just start tomorrow, likejust have one more day.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah, i mean, i think for the vast majority of people
who struggle with this, eatingjust a normal diet, like a
normal nourishing amount of foodthat's ample and that's
satisfying to your body, ends upbeing a lot less calories than
what you actually eat whenyou're dieting and binging.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
So hopefully that's making sense to people.
It's like you don't want togive up the restriction because
you think, oh, i have to controlmyself, i have to eat less,
when actually eating less isleading you to eat way more.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
So it's great that you're seeing that nourishing
yourself, satisfying you knowyour hunger and all that is
actually leading you to loseweight, because you're probably
eating less overall and in amuch healthier, sustainable way.
That sets you up for like alifetime of a healthy metabolism
, instead of this starving,binging and all that.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Right, You give a brief description in the
recovery guide that I like, butjust overall to help somebody
identify okay, this is for surethis sort of binge eating thing.
What is the definition that youwould start with?
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean there's sort of aclinical definition.
I mean there is a clinicaldefinition of a binge in the DSM
, which you know.
I'll kind of briefly summarizeit.
It's eating in a specificperiod of time and they give an
example of a two hour period, anamount of food that's
definitely larger than a normalperson would eat under similar
circumstances.
So it's just like kind ofobjectively, if you saw someone
(08:46):
eating that amount you'd be likewhoa, that's way more than
anyone should be eating in thesituation.
So that's kind of an amount.
It's like a quantity, butthere's also like quality to it,
in that you eat faster thannormal.
There's a lot of shame involved.
It's usually done in secret.
A huge key in the definition isfeeling like you're out of
control.
That lack of control, i think,is probably the most key part of
(09:07):
the definition, because peoplecan eat maybe less food but
still feel completely out ofcontrol And I would still say
you know subjectively that couldbe a binge.
So, like you mentioned earlier,there is subjectivity around it
.
But when you look at thequantity, when you look at the
way of eating, it's just waymore food in a much more
abnormal way of eating than youknow people do on a daily basis.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Right.
Yeah, i felt like the majorityof my binges would be like 30
minutes, but they would just beso out of control.
Whole packs of cookies are kindof like you were saying full
boxes of cereal, just like goingnonstop.
Finding the reason to let goand go wild or whatever is also
a thing too.
There was like a mentalcomponent of like giving into
(09:49):
something rather than just beinglike, oh, I'm hungry and I want
a snack.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
It was like there was something that I had to do and
I was fighting with it And thensomething flips and you kind of
find that sort of justificationor you think, okay, well, screw
it, i'm just going to eateverything in sight.
There is that sort of mentalflip that you give in to.
What I talk about in the booksis more of that primal drive,
that primitive brain instinct tojust eat as much as possible,
(10:13):
in a way of self-protection, andthat's something we can get
into more.
But there definitely is acomponent of like not feeling
like yourself or feeling likeyou're maybe washing yourself,
do this thing that you know youdon't really want to be doing,
but kind of in the moment youfeel like it's all you want to
be doing until it's done, andthen you feel shame and guilt
and all that.
It's definitely an experiencethat I never would have
understood unless I experienceit for myself.
(10:35):
Like having these urges, givinginto them, eating this massive
amount of food, like I justnever saw that as something I
would ever do.
But when you experience theseurges for yourself, it feels
like you don't have a choice inthat moment.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, you almost feel like at least for me it felt
like out of control, like mymind and my body were fighting
with each other And like evenwhile I was doing it I would be
telling myself like, hey, youshould stop, You should really
stop, but then feeling like youcan't stop.
You know, there were quite afew moments.
The one that really kind of gotme was I got a call from my
bank one time because on the wayback from work one day I
(11:09):
stopped at like four differentfast food places and was just
eating the whole drive back.
So for like 35 minutes in thecar I stopped at every fast food
place, nearly in my bankthought it somebody stole my car
.
Yeah so they put, they put ahold on it And I didn't realize
it.
I went to work the next day Andone of the applications I use
(11:30):
for work it's like asubscription type thing And the
app wouldn't work And I was likeI don't know what the deal is.
So I, after I got done with thejob, I called and it was
because the card was shut downAnd I was like, wow, this is
like too much.
I can't.
You know, I'm like getting inmy own way and fighting with it.
So I don't know if there's a lotof guys that tend to dismiss
(11:51):
some of the things we kind of gothrough as just like I'm not
going to talk about this or thisis not a big deal, Or whenever
I was listening to a lot of thetestimonials I know there are
men in there, but I feel likepredominantly maybe women are
reaching out, or men aren'treaching out as often or as
frequently, or maybe somethingin my own mind did this for so
(12:13):
long before.
I was like, okay, I need toreally tackle this on and and
some of that takes labeling itand taking the steps forward.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, I do think there's kind of a misconception
that, oh, this is something thatonly women struggle with.
But I definitely don't thinkthat's the case.
I mean I would say I get tomajority women.
Maybe for every nine womenthere's one or two men.
You know that.
Contact me or reach out andthere is more awareness.
I think that it does occur inmales, and males do have
different standards for theirbody image.
(12:42):
And dieting comes into play andthe same reaction that happens,
you know, i re identify.
I mean this is your primalbrain.
This is a deep part of yourbrain that is designed to
protect you and that is designedto.
It also builds habits.
I mean once we do it once, evenif you do stop dieting, like it
does become a habit if it getsrewarded.
Binging releases pleasurablebrain chemicals.
(13:04):
This gets wired into your brainSo like it doesn't matter your
gender.
This is all like a deep part ofwho we all are.
The formation of habits andgetting quote unquote addicted
to things.
This is like a universalproblem.
So yeah, it's good that you'respeaking out and sharing your
journey, because I think it willhelp a lot of other men as well
.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
What do you think the common misconceptions are with
like binge eating?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
I think the word binge has become a common term
in society.
Like we binge watch TV shows,we know it's become this word
that I think it almost likedismisses the struggle that
binge eaters have, becausesomeone might eat like five
cookies and say, oh, i bingedand like meanwhile we're over
here eating a whole pack of youknow like massive amounts of
(13:47):
food and cookies and more foodafter that.
So I think when people say, oh,i binge, when they ate just like
a normal dessert, it sort oftakes away a little from the
struggle.
So I think that's amisconception.
That like a binge is a clinicalthing.
That's massive amounts of foodand that makes people feel awful
and causes terribleconsequences in their lives.
It's not just like a littleovereating.
So I think that's a big one.
I think another one is probablycould take up the rest of the
(14:09):
show.
So I'll try to be brief is thatit's a way to cope like?
it is a way to cope with lifeAnd it's kind of the path I was
led down in therapy.
And I'm not saying like thereis some indirect connections to
problems and stressors and allthat And we can definitely talk
about that, but I think it'sjust really built up like even
if you go to WebMD or some ofthese big like websites that
(14:30):
explain health problems, it'slike, oh, binge eating is a way
to cope with problems And I justreally think that can justify
it and create reasons for doingit.
When it is like a primalinstinct, it's a habit, and when
we give ourselves all thesereasons like, oh, i need this
because I've had a hard day orbecause my life is so hard, then
it just kind of gives us morereasons to give in.
So I think the coping mechanismtheory is it's a complicated
(14:51):
one, but I think it is aproblematic misconception.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Right, that was a big part of your story of going to
different counselors andtherapists and things like that,
and they were looking for aroot cause.
But, like you're saying, evenin my own life people would say
like, oh, you're just stresseating or something like that,
and stress could be an excuse togive in.
But I binge on happy days too.
(15:15):
You know, sometimes that's anexcuse, sometimes like hey, i'm
celebrating, and then it justleads into something crazy too.
So that is a big one that we'relooking for reasons other than
to just label this as an urge.
And you know, if somebody cutsme off in traffic and I get
angry, like I could have theurge to retaliate in some crazy
way, but I'm going to fight thaturge, i'm not going to do
(15:36):
anything like that.
And this is just another one ofthose intrusive sort of urges
that over time, we need to learnto turn off or ignore.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
In a recent interview you had mentioned, it's 18
years now, right That?
you've been recovered frombinge eating.
Has your perspective changedover time, from when you first
kind of started the recoveryprocess to where you are now?
Speaker 2 (15:58):
If you go back to like when I first started being
introduced to therapy and I wastaught all this about, it's a
way to cope and you're stuffingdown your feelings and you're
trying to meet an emotional needand all these things like, yes,
that perspective has completelychanged And because that
perspective changed, that's howI recovered, like I was able to
reframe everything and see that,okay, yeah, I had problems,
(16:21):
there was issues in myupbringing, like, but that's not
the cause.
I mean, the cause was dieting.
The cause was the fact that Istarved my body.
It created massive, you know,urges to eat massive amounts of
food and that created a habitthat perpetuated, you know, for
many years.
So once I was able to see it inthat way, it took all like the
mystery out of recovery.
It's before I thought, oh, ihad to learn to cope with
(16:41):
depression, i had to learn tocure anxiety, i had to resolve
everything from my past and thatjust like it was fine.
All that stuff is great, liketo improve your life, but it
never really helped with thebinging.
So I was able to target thebinging.
I was able to see, like the waythe brain was creating the
urges But, like you said,realize, okay, this is just an
urge, this is not me, This isnot what I actually want.
So, like that perspectivemassively changed As far as like
(17:04):
what changed since I recover,like since I was able to use
that brain based information,since I was able to rewire my
brain.
I think the biggest perspectivesince I wrote brain over binge
which I wrote a second editionlast year which I think reflects
this a little better is thatyou know I've come around to
realize that my approach is notincompatible with therapy, it's
not incompatible with otherapproaches.
(17:27):
I feel like I was a little toolike harsh on therapy in my
first book because I felt like,oh gosh, this wasted so many
years of my life I was, you know, led to believe that I needed
to solve everything before Irecovered.
But, like people can work onother issues and work on
stopping the urges, andsometimes the two can compliment
each other, in that you needlike a higher part of yourself,
(17:47):
a higher part of your brain tooverride these urges, and the
more you can sort of build upthat higher self, like by
finding purpose or by, you know,solving some problems, it just
can help you.
It really can't hurt you at allAs long as you realize, like I
don't need to be perfect to stopbinging, like so, building up
yourself, helping yourself intherapy and stuff like that.
I think, provided you have theright perspective, it can only
(18:09):
kind of benefit you in certainways.
Now you know, of course, ifit's giving you excuses and
making you think you have tosolve every issue you've ever
had to stop binging, then that'snot helpful.
But I think that's probably thebiggest perspective is I think
that everyone is different.
Bring in whatever you feel likewould help you, even if that's
therapy, even if that's, youknow, whatever you feel like you
need.
So I hope that's making sense.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah for sure.
I think the most of what I gotfrom just the book, because I
think I went through the newestedition or one of the newer
editions.
I cheated, i went through theaudio books of all these.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
So yeah, it was I reading the audio book.
Yes, was it me.
Yeah, okay, then that's thenewer one.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Okay, great Yeah, so I went through that one, but it
felt like to me.
It's like you think throughtherapy and all these internal
issues that you have to slay,like these nine dragons, instead
of just the one that is.
I just need to learn to ignorethe urges or label the urges as
some primitive thing.
Have you ever heard of theBrian Johnson guy, the blueprint
guy?
Speaker 2 (19:04):
I feel like it sounds familiar, but I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
He created some platform or something called
Braintree, sold it to Venmo,made millions and millions of
dollars, and now what he does ishe spends all his time and
money on reversing his age.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
I've not heard of that.
Well, i kind of watch his stuffbecause it's just so intriguing
.
But one of the things that hesaid recently and I think this
kind of ties to what we'retalking about is he was talking
about how we as humans try to doour best to avoid violence.
And he's just saying, in whathe's doing, he's trying to label
these habits, like binge eating, for example, as violence
(19:40):
against yourself, and it's likewe would never want to harm a
loved one or even some peoplethat have irritated us.
we would still not want to harmthem.
yet We are harming ourselves.
So if we can label in a way likeit's different from just going
like, oh, this is the lowerbrain talking or a primitive
brain But in a way he's sayinglike if we can label certain
(20:00):
things as violence againstourselves going crazy on pizza
or whatever then we wouldn't doit either.
If we could have establishedthose, and I thought that was
interesting as well, because Iwas like, yeah, somebody cut me
off in traffic.
example again, i would neverlike responding violence to
someone else, but why would Irespond in any circumstance
towards violence to myself?
(20:20):
you know, just an intrusivethought.
why would I let that then helpme do something violent against
myself.
So I thought that wasinteresting.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
I think it is too, And it kind of brings up for me
the fact that when therapy iskind of not helpful, it does the
opposite, in that it teachespeople that you're binging to
soothe yourself.
You're binging because it'shelping you in some way.
You're binging because you'renot getting your needs met
otherwise and then you need this.
So like it almost gives youthis idea that it's the opposite
of violence, that it's likesomething helpful until you can,
(20:50):
you know, find other ways tosoothe yourself, until you can
put like reframing it as no,this is violence.
You have to say no to theseurges And once you do, yeah, you
can find many other ways tosoothe yourself.
But just having the idea thatit's helpful in some way, I
think, is actually a reallyharmful idea.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
For sure.
I know for me, and even in yourkind of story too, it's like
the more you struggle withsomething, the more you
internalized it and backed upaway from people.
You started adding distance inrelationships and things like
that.
What type of advice do you havefor people out there who are
maybe feeling isolated or alonein their journey?
How can they bring peoplealongside them that love them,
(21:29):
that can help encourage them toget past this hurdle?
Speaker 2 (21:33):
That's a hard question.
It's a good question, i think,because it is so isolating, like
you're so ashamed.
you know there may be weightchanges that you feel like you
don't even look like yourself,you just want to hide.
Of course, when you're eatingyou want to hide.
So it definitely is isolatingand that just kind of
perpetuates everything Andultimately you are the only one
who can say no to those urgeswhen they come up, no matter
(21:55):
what support you have in yourlife, no matter who else is
around.
like it ultimately does comedown to you.
So like I think having thatself empowerment of like when
your brain produces an urge,like you're the only one who can
decide to act or not act on it,but like having the support, is
helpful to people And for somepeople more than others.
I tend to be, like veryintroverted And even though the
(22:17):
isolation was tough during thebinge eating, i feel like my
recovery.
ultimately I did do it on myown in the end.
So knowing that you can do iton your own and that's an option
, great.
But other people do need supportAnd I do think it's helpful to
talk to people you can trust, tohave sort of plans in place
where you can reach out.
That's all very helpful.
We at Brain Over Binge I havelearned over the years that this
(22:39):
is something that people need.
So I now have a coach workingfor me, coach Shuli, who does a
brain over binge group.
she's on the forum every day.
she has group calls.
So, like that's definitelysomething you can look into as
well.
There's groups, there's support, you know.
so I would just say it's anindividual thing for every
person And, like, if you feellike you're comfortable on your
own and you want to do this onyour own, that absolutely is
doable.
(22:59):
But there's absolutely nothingwrong with getting support And
it's something that a lot ofpeople need.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Let's flip it Then.
what is a loved one to do ifthey know that someone they love
is struggling with?
this or they're walking throughrecovery of binge eating.
What's a way that loved onescan support someone walking
through that?
Speaker 2 (23:21):
It can sometimes be a bit of a fine line because you
know, if the loved one kind ofoversteps and tries to control
and tries to tell them what toeat and it's critical of what
they eat and things like that,that can almost have a counter
effect.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Right So.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I do think the loved one.
it's best if the loved oneoffers their support without
being controlling about it.
You let me know what you need.
in certain moments I'mavailable to you.
Please reach out And it's justsort of be that presence of
support without telling them howthey should eat or trying to
control the situation in any way.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Did you ever get a few weeks in and slip and kind
of stumble And then what, whatare some positive things?
you would have to tell yourselfto keep from spiraling out of
control.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Well, when I first started applying sort of this
brain-based ideas and I got itand what you know from the book,
from a basis of it was fromJack Trimpe's Rational Recovery
and it was kind of analternative to Alcoholics
Anonymous.
It was for alcohol, drugaddiction, but I applied it to
the eating disorder and he wasreally big on like this is in
your brain, it's a habit, it'snot a disease, it's not a coping
(24:27):
mechanism and you can, you know, stop.
So once I actually appliedthose ideas, kind of in my own
way, based on my own struggle, ionly had two other times where
I slipped and binged.
So like this is when I'm usingthese brain-based ideas.
The first time it happened, i,like in the past, i would have
been like trying to figure outwhat stress caused it.
I would have been trying tofigure out like what I could
(24:48):
have done differently in my day,what I could have eaten
differently to prevent it,things like that.
But but when this actuallyhappened, after learning about
the brain, i was like, oh, ijust followed an urge, that's
all a binge is is following anurge.
I got caught up in it.
I believed temporarily that itwas what I wanted or needed and
I acted on it.
So, like I didn't make itcomplicated, i was like, okay, i
(25:09):
followed the urge time to moveon.
What thought kind of led me tostep back into that primal brain
and think that's what I wanted?
Like I kind of analyzed, like,what thoughts led me there and
realized, okay, next time I havethose thoughts, i'll just
dismiss them.
So I just didn't make a bigdeal of it, i think.
And I think that's really,really helpful for people to
just say okay, i acted on theurge, what can I do differently
(25:31):
next time?
The last time I binged it wasalmost like and you read about
this in the book, i'm sure tooit was like almost a choice.
I heard those thoughts.
I knew they weren't me, i knewthey were just the habit, their
old programming, and I was like,okay, but I'm going to act on
it anyway.
And I binged and it was just notthe same.
I was just once I like had thatchoice.
it just kind of becameimpossible to binge and I never
(25:52):
binged again.
So those were the two slips Ihad, using this brain-based
perspective.
Prior to that, i had so manyslips and it was all just like
an endless cycle of trying tofigure out what triggered it and
trying to control thecircumstances in my life, trying
to control my feelings, tryingto like do all these things when
really I just the problem wasthe urge.
And once I realized the problemwas the urge that allowed me to
(26:15):
target it and allowed me toovercome slips a lot better than
I had in the past, wheneverything just was too
complicated.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
After I got through your book, I mean, once I
started reading, I startedapplying, but it was like I kind
of got through it And I wouldhave like these little
micro-binges or something likethat.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yeah, probably just mini binges, Mini binges Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
It was like once I kind of unlocked that part of my
brain.
Like you said, i couldn'treally just go crazy.
Like there was something thatwas different and it kind of
shocked me because it wassimilar to how you said.
Kind of.
The last one was where it'slike I'm sure it's not
impossible for me to binge thesame way I used to, but now if I
(26:56):
got really hungry then I couldeat like maybe one piece of
chocolate or maybe have a coupleof chips while I'm cooking my
food And it's like one of these,like I couldn't say no to the
piece of chocolate but I didn'teat like a whole bag of
chocolate or like I'm going toeat every single Mr Goodbar in
this bag or I'm going to.
You know, i feel like now, justfrom knowing even though I
(27:18):
don't feel like I'm applying aton of pressure on that point I
feel like I don't binge like Iused to, just because it's just
part of knowing now what it is.
The ability to label it, what itis, really unlocked something
and I saw like immediateprogress which was different
from some of the other booksthat I went through, where there
(27:39):
was an extreme amount ofsetting up all these things in
your life and making a list ofthese are okay, these are not
okay, like all these like rigidmoral labels to certain foods
like this is good food, this isbad food, this is binge inducing
food, this isn't.
I feel like there was less ofthat with your book.
(28:00):
I immediately just picked it upand was like, okay, well, this
makes sense, like it's just kindof happening on its own in a
weird way.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Yeah, i think that's amazing and I like your example
with the chocolate because, likeyou mentioned, in some of the
books about eating disorders andbinge eating, it's like, okay,
you have to stay away fromtrigger foods, you have to stay
away from sugar or flour orthings like that that could, you
know, potentially be addicting.
And, yes, like certain foodsare more stimulating to the
pleasure centers in our brainthan others, like that's a fact,
(28:27):
but that doesn't mean we'repowerless against them.
So, like you've seen foryourself that you can just eat
one piece of chocolate and theremight be thoughts and feelings
of wanting more, but it'spossible to feel that, to
experience it and to stop.
You know, and people do havedifferent reactions to sugar and
different types of foods, andthat's kind of where, you know,
a lot of my thinking has evolvedtoo.
Is that, yes, like some peoplemay need to give up certain
(28:49):
foods for a certain time If theyfeel like they can't disconnect
from that urge, if they feellike it's too powerful, then I
don't think it's a bad thing,but I think that, overall, like
we should have a mindset ofpower over foods, like it's not
the foods that are controllingus, like we decide ultimately
what we put in our mouths,despite whatever we're feeling,
thinking, experiencing likephysical cravings, things like
(29:12):
that.
But then don't take that to meanyou'll ever eat perfectly Right
.
I mean I follow tons ofcravings, like it's definitely
not binge, like not even close,but like if I want a dessert, i
have a dessert.
I mean not all the time.
Sometimes I'm like, nah, idon't really want it right now,
but like I eat junk food, ifollow cravings, things like
that.
So I think when we startthinking, okay, i don't want to
follow these primitive urgesspecifically I'm talking about
(29:34):
binging and like reallyproblematic forms of
over-reading.
I'm not saying, don't followany urges to eat a piece of
chocolate while you're cooking,like that's totally fine if you
want to do that, you know.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, i think that this weird sort of labeling of
good and bad foods and I mean weknow they're healthier foods
and these don't for the caloricdensity these things don't give
us as much as these things dofor the volume or however, but
it's kind of part of living too.
They exist.
(30:03):
I believe you have children.
I have children.
on special days I want to be ata place where I'm healthy
enough to go have ice cream withthem if that's what we're going
to do, and I feel like theserigid like nose.
it's more of my ability to havea cake in the house and only
have one piece at the party andthen not eat the rest of it at
(30:23):
night.
That's more the ability I wantthan the rigid like I can't have
cake because I don't know if Ihave one piece I'll have a
million pieces or I'll eat thewhole thing.
I think being afraid of thosekind of robs you of other joys
in life.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah, i absolutely agree and everyone has to find
that balance that works for them.
But, yeah, just having thefreedom to eat And I think that
when we put foods off limits itmakes them more appealing Like
once you do have that allowingmindset of like I know I can
have this whenever I want, youknow, in moderation, in a way
that works for me, it just takesthe appeal away so that you
don't feel like, oh my gosh, ihave to eat all this now because
(30:58):
I never get to have it again,because you know you're you can
have it again.
So it's taking that you know,sort of forbidden fruit away
from these foods makes you eatless of them overall.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Makes you do one scoop instead of like three or
like.
Oh I know, if I do this today Ican't do it ever again, So I'm
going to eat as much as Ipossibly can.
You know, that was like the lieI would tell myself quite a bit
as well.
If I'm going to give in today,then I better get everything I
want.
I better be able to stop atthis one place that I love the
fried chicken at.
I better, you know, on the wayhome, get this thing too,
(31:29):
because tomorrow, none of it, Ican't have any of it.
But the thought that if it fitswithin my nutritional strategy,
I can have this thing if I wantit on this day or whatever that
day.
Do you feel like eating theright amount of food, or eating
enough food?
Do you feel like that is a huge?
I know it was in my life, butis it a huge speed bump for
(31:52):
people to kind of fall intobinge eating, restricting not
just the type but the amount aswell?
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Yeah, I mean, I do think restricting the amount is
like the biggest thing, Like,yeah, the type can cause
problems too.
But when I started dieting,there was this mindset of like
if I'm eating anywhere close to2000 calories, like that's way
too much.
So I was trying to get like wayunder that, way under that,
like the furthest under that Icould go, the better.
And now it's like I think ifyou're eating under 2000
calories, that's not enough,Like especially for for men and
(32:22):
for people with larger bodyframes and people are active.
I mean, I don't think I evereat less than 2000 calories a
day And I think that thecomposition of what I eat
changed, Like I feel like overtime.
I've realized my body needsmore healthy fat, more proteins
and they can be more caloriedense and things like that.
It's a mental hurdle A lot ofpeople have to overcome to start
eating enough.
I call it in my book, I call iteating adequately.
(32:42):
You have to eat adequately, notperfectly, not optimally, not
healthy all the time, but youhave to eat enough decent food,
like in terms of quality, interms of quantity, and I think
quantity is actually even moreimportant than quality,
especially early on in recovery.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Do you think that if you're really struggling with
binge eating, do you think thatintermittent fasting is
something you should wait on Ifyou're, if you're struggling?
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah, i mean, that's definitely, i feel, like a
loaded question, but like, yes,i do think it's something you
should wait on, if not avoidforever.
Yeah, i don't know, i, andmaybe just some people, aren't
set up for it.
Like I was always someone likeas a young kid I was very active
and I always ate a lot, ate alot often, like just felt like I
needed it.
I was never overweight oranything And I still feel like
(33:27):
I've tried like dude, i thoughtI was healthy.
I was like, okay, i'm not goingto eat breakfast till like 9 am
, like just to give my body alittle more time to like rest
and digest and things like that.
And like I feel like it droveme crazy.
Like even this was like probably14 years after recovery And I
don't think it was anythingdangerous, like I don't think I
was in any danger of going backdown a dangerous path, but I
felt like it just wasn't likewhy am I doing this?
(33:47):
I'm hungry at 7 am?
Yeah, i don't know.
So I feel like you stretch thatthe way I felt in those two
hours a stretch that over.
People are doing this for manyhours And, like you said, like
40 hours or something I can onlyimagine, like the havoc this is
causing.
For what benefit?
like the stress and thecortisol that you're creating
with all this stress, like Ifeel like that offsets a lot of
(34:09):
the quote unquote healthbenefits that people promote.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Right.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
And I just think with binging it's like you already
know you're a person susceptibleto kind of fasting and feasting
and having this terrible cycle.
So you know that about yourself.
So like, why put yourself inthat situation?
Like maybe for some people whoare not susceptible, who have
certain health conditions whocan do this?
people have differentphysiology So maybe for some
people it can be helpful in somesituations.
but I think anyone susceptibleto binging and harmful dieting,
(34:35):
i just think it's something toavoid.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Yeah, that was a selfish question, just because I
found myself really strugglingwith it.
You know, that was the thingthat you know.
You hear all these things.
Some of there's benefits tofasting, but it's so funny that
that's kind of the same part ofour brain that we're like yeah,
you know our ancestors, they,you know, some days they'd be
out hunting a meal and theywouldn't eat one day and then
(34:59):
they would overeat the next day.
And you know, and I felt likefor me, the longer I kept trying
to push back eating, the more Ijust thought about eating all
day long And I made some reallybad decisions on what I ate for
lunch.
Compared to if I just atewhatever a bowl of oatmeal or
something at breakfast, that's200 calories.
I'm not obsessed with over foodand I'll have a lighter lunch
(35:22):
and no big deal.
I can focus on working and notlike saying no to hunger pains
all day.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
So and I mean our ancestors didn't have the option
Like.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
I think if they would have had the option to eat they
would have eaten.
For sure Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
We have so much temptations, i just don't know
if our world is set up forpeople to do this.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Yeah, have you faced, because I feel like they're
even in your book you kind oftalk about there's two mindsets
And even in just a few booksthat I've read it can go all
over the place.
There's like correlatingapplications, but they're all
over the map.
Do you face any sort ofresistance to this super logical
way of treating binge eating?
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, I think less than Ithought I might have.
Like, i feel like I definitelyhave more positive feedback from
people saying, wow, this reallyempowered me, this really
helped me.
You know, see everythingdifferently.
I would think the biggest one Iget, which I totally understand,
is that, like, okay, somepeople don't have control, like
some people actually can't usethe power of their higher brain
(36:21):
And I try to set that up in mybook saying, like, okay, this is
not for people with othermental disorders that affect
that self-control function.
Like this is not for peoplewith, like, severe trauma or
severe depression or things that, like you're not actually
accessing your higher brain.
So, yeah, i think that that's afair criticism And I try to
address that, you know.
So, if you're someone who, likeyou're trying this and you feel
(36:42):
like you absolutely cannot stopyour actions, then maybe
there's something else going on.
I mean, even people with, like,severe ADHD have trouble
accessing the self-controlfunction.
So you know it's definitelysomething.
If you want to use the brainover binge approach, there may
be some other things that youneed in addition to that.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Yeah for sure.
There's another book to I'veread.
I think maybe it's called ThePower of Habit.
It's like a yellow book And ittalks about a specific
individual who had short-termmemory loss and he ended up
gaining a ton of weight becauseof the habitual side of just
eating meals at the same time.
(37:19):
So he would forget that he justate breakfast and then, out of
habit, 45 minutes later he wouldgo eat breakfast again.
That's an extreme case, but ina weird way it does apply kind
of to what you're saying, whichis like we've just developed
over time this habit of bingeeating that we do even if we
feel full after a meal orsomething like that.
(37:41):
We just push over because it isa trigger or a cue, then a
response and a reward, and justover and over again.
The more we train neuralpathways in our brain, we just
create these ridges that it'seasy to get into, this groove
that you can go down.
I thought that was interestingtoo, that I had read that book
(38:01):
quite a while ago and then itwas brought to mind whenever I
was reading yours that there arejust so many things that go
into if we can just be mindfulof what's the cue that causes us
to do this thing.
You've done a good job in yourbook of saying here's how you
label this thing as an urge.
Probably the most profoundthing out of your book for me
(38:22):
was just going the only thingthat you're fixing is you're
just getting rid of the urge.
You're not doing anything pastthat.
I'm butchering how you wordedit, but that's basically like
the one thing that I immediatelytook.
Like as soon as I heard thatsort of message, i was like, wow
, yeah, that's really it.
It's just this urge, and thenI'm just satisfying that urge,
(38:45):
but there's nothing else goingon.
I don't need this.
It's not offering me any sortof benefits other than it's just
prolonging.
The next time I have this urgeIt's just turning it off for now
and then it'll turn it back onagain later, and that, i think
immediately.
Whenever I heard that, i waslike okay, this just changed
everything for me.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Yeah for sure.
I mean, I had a similarexperience in that I thought
recovery meant I was going tobecome this like happy person
and, you know, be able to copewith everything.
Great, And like.
I'm not.
18 years later, I'm still not.
So, like when you recover, notonly is the urge the cause of
each and every binge.
When you recover you're justgetting rid of the urge.
You're just getting rid of thispainful behavior that comes
(39:27):
from following the urge And itdoesn't mean your life will be
perfect.
And I think some people think,like they maybe don't binge for
a day and they still have allthese problems and they're still
feel sad and they still feellonely And like, yeah, that's
life, It's life And the or thebinging was not helping at all.
So, like realizing that lifewon't be perfect after recovery,
it prevents you from likethinking that a binge would
somehow help you in anysituation.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
That was probably my huge takeaway.
Or the light switch, that kindof flipped, what is like one
thing that listeners can likeimmediately apply if they listen
to this and they're struggling.
That's the first step.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Yeah, i mean as far as where to start, like, i think
a lot of times people arelooking for, like, specific
strategies, like do this, dothis, and you know, sure,
there's strategies that helppeople, but I really break it
down to two things You have todismiss the urges to binge and
you have to eat adequately, eatenough food.
So, like, whatever you can doto bring yourself toward one or
(40:25):
both of those goals is extremelyhelpful place to start.
How can you start learning todismiss the urges to binge?
Well, like well, a lot of whatwe talked about here in this
show.
You can learn to see themdifferently, learn to see them
as a primal part of your brain,learn to see them as not you.
Okay, what can you do to eatadequately?
Can you try to not fast?
Can you add more to your meals,things like that?
So, like, getting yourself toone or both of those goals goals
(40:47):
is great.
I do have a free ebook.
If anyone would like to startwith dismissing urges, i have a.
If you go to brainoverbinchcom,you can download a free ebook
that is all about dismissing theurges.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
So that's like one place I can specifically give
you to start if you'reinterested in my approach, so I
hope that's okay to mention thatas well, absolutely, yeah, in
fact, as we wrap up, i want tothank you so much for taking the
time to meet with me and chatabout these things.
What are some of the resourcesyou offer?
I know you have a podcast, youhave the book and the recovery
guide.
Just rattle off some of themost beneficial resources that
(41:20):
can be paid or whatever the casemay be, but what are some
people who are?
if you believe that you'rereally struggling with this, you
really want to get over this,catherine, give them some of
your resources that you have outthere available.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Yeah, thank you for the opportunity to do that And I
do have everything atbrainoverbinchcom.
Like I mentioned, the freeebook can be a place to start.
I have the two books, like yousaid brain over binge and the
brain over binge recovery guide.
Brain over binge is my personalstory and the brain over binge
recovery guide is more of theself help conversion of the book
.
I have coaching.
I don't personally do thecoaching.
I have coach Julie, who'sawesome and she recovered after
(41:54):
40 years and in a different waya little bit than me, so she
provides like a differentperspective.
So she does one on one coachinggroup coaching.
I'm also doing a webinar comingup.
I'm not sure when you'rereleasing this, but you go to
brainoverbinchcom For a slashwebinar to find out any
opportunities, sort of toconnect with me directly.
I think that's about it.
Oh, i have online course.
That's the last thing.
I have a very inexpensiveonline course that self-paced
(42:15):
like.
If you're not someone who needsthat personal support with
coaching, you can do aself-paced online course And
that's also at brainoverbinchcom.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
That's great.
Thank you so much, and thankyou for taking the time to
answer these questions and hangout with me for a sec.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Yeah, thank you so much, Mike.
I appreciate you having me andsharing your own story.
I think it's you know it'svulnerable and it's going to be
helpful to a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Stronger
Self.
I want to give you a little bitof time to explore Catherine's
work with brain over binge overon her website or her book or
the recovery guide.
Take some time, look into thatAnd on the next episode I'll
break down the concepts thatI've used that have really
worked for me and how I applythem and how you may be able to
(42:58):
apply them to quit binge eatingfor good.
I appreciate you joining me andI hope to see you on the next
episode of the Stronger Selfpodcast.
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