April 26, 2025 • 47 mins
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Episode Transcript
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Jocelyn Seamer (00:00):
Hello, hello everyone, welcome to the
Structured Literacy Podcast.
I have a special treat for you.
We are not only recording fromTasmania, the land of the Palawa
people, but we are alsorecording from Noongar country,
because we have a guest, andthat guest is Jenny Cole, who
was my leadership coach when Iworked in leadership in schools.
(00:20):
Jenny welcome.
Jenny (00:22):
Thank you, Jocelyn, lovely to be here.
Jocelyn Seamer (00:24):
Oh, Jen, for people who haven't met you or
heard of you before, tell us abit about yourself.
Jenny (00:32):
Okay, well, I'm old so I'm going to give you the short
version.
Currently I call myself a coachand a consultant, leadership
consultant and a recoveringprincipal.
I started my career as ateacher aid, as an education
assistant while I was studyingto be a special needs teacher,
and so I was a special needsteacher and, for all sorts of
(00:53):
reasons, became a principalquite early in small schools,
did various other things andfound myself in a large
education support special schoolwith very challenging kids but
even more challenging adults,and about 15 years ago, before
(01:14):
it was fashionable, I burnt outand became overwhelmed and left
the education department anddecided that I probably needed a
way to pay my mortgage and setup my own company.
And I've done various things,but these days my focus is on
leadership, particularly new andaspiring leaders and those that
(01:36):
are kind of team leader levelin schools, so the head of the
phase of learning team or thehead of the curriculum committee
or those sorts of teacherleaders.
So that's the work that I tendto do these days in my
professional learning, but Ialso coach a lot of veteran and
experienced leaders.
Jocelyn Seamer (01:56):
And Jen, your work is transformational and it
was for me when I was a leaderand I sometimes jokingly say
that learning from you and beingcoached by you helped me know
how to not want to punch peopleand and everyone has a giggle
and you know that's very funnybut the reality is that when we
don't understand or we're not inthe space, the headspace of
(02:20):
meeting people where they're upto, we can get really frustrated
.
So any leader out there, at anyspace, in any profession, if
you felt frustrated by thepeople around you, that's a
really good sign.
There's learning to do and itwas for me and I learned that
half the problem was me and theway I was approaching situations
(02:44):
, not actually the other person,and in fact they weren't a
problem Once I figured out andhad some support to actually
adjust what I was doing to get agreat outcome for everyone, to
get that win-win.
So anyone out there, it's okay,you're not alone and every time
you feel it, it's okay, it isjust a point of learning.
So, jen, we've got lots ofleaders who are either informal
(03:09):
leaders, so they are a teacherin a classroom supporting
colleagues, they'reinstructional leaders, or
they're principals and evensystem leadership and system
coaches and support people.
So we've got a big range ofaudience in this podcast.
We're going to try today andanswer some of the most common
questions that I have from themand you'll feel free to throw in
(03:32):
anything that you think mightbe useful that you're seeing in
school land as well, and justfor a bit of feedback everyone.
Jenny works across stages ofschooling, so she's worked with
early childhood staff, primary,secondary working with teachers,
but also classroom assistantsand leadership.
So there's lots of experiencethat Jen has to draw on.
(03:53):
I think one of the things thatso many leaders and teachers
experience is imposter syndrome,that little voice that says
you're not good enough, youdon't know enough, you can't do
it.
So how can we as human beingsnavigate imposter syndrome and
(04:14):
what are the habits or routinesthat we can maybe adopt and put
on repeat to support us when wecome across these issues?
Jenny (04:24):
Yeah, imposter syndrome.
I tend to think of it more,just about confidence and
confidence being a thing that isnot permanent and fixed.
We can be really confident inone area, like a really
confident classroom teacher, butthen feel a little imposter
syndrome or a little wobbly whenwe're trying to lead a
(04:44):
committee or give our advice toa principal.
So there's a couple offundamentals around confidence.
Confidence keeps us stuck, andso confidence is about taking
action, and as soon as we startto take action, even if it's
imperfect action, we just findthat momentum gets us out.
(05:05):
So do something, do somethingsmall, take action.
A couple of other things aroundimposter syndrome is knowing
that you have strengths andleveraging those.
So doing more of what alreadyworks, rather than trying to say
I don't know anything aboutsyntax and getting all stressed
(05:26):
and worried that that's adeficit.
Instead say how did I learnabout morphology?
And do that again.
So find out what works, do moreof it and fail fast.
And often is one of the thingsthat I talk about, which is it
joins those things together,which is about taking imperfect
(05:46):
action.
We're often really worriedabout what other people are
thinking about us, and so webeaver away and make a beautiful
scope and sequence, that'scolor-coded and has everything
all in the right columns andlaminated, and then we put it in
front of the committee who says, oh, oh, you didn't think about
such and such, and thatfeedback feels wounding, whereas
(06:10):
if you put out a what BreneBrown calls a shitty first draft
and put it out and iterate andwrite all over it, it doesn't
look pretty, but it's a work inprogress and that is more likely
to fuel your confidence.
Try something, give it a go, dosomething, um, get feedback as
(06:31):
you go, rather than put out afinished product and then get
upset because people don't likeit or the principles change
their mind and and all that workgoes down the toilet.
Jocelyn Seamer (06:42):
so there are a couple of strategies yeah, yeah,
and I've had the thought overthe years that nobody knocks on
your front door and hands you abucket of confidence and then
you go.
Right now I can go doeverything, and I like what you
said about taking action, thatit's not about being perfect on
the first day.
I'm listening to what you'resaying about action and failing
fast and reflecting back on someof the cognitive science that
(07:05):
we have about learning.
So, folks, any learningquestion you have about
grown-ups, go to the learningresearch about people in general
and what we would maybe thinkabout as information about
children and use that.
So it was shared at a conferencelast week that creativity
requires three things.
The first one is knowledge.
So if you don't feel like youknow things, the first one is
(07:25):
knowledge.
So if you don't feel like youknow things, you have more
knowledge.
The second one was time.
You need time to process andhave a go.
The third one was failure, andthat links directly with what
you said, jen, because it's theopportunity to try something and
it doesn't work and then youthink about it.
That pushes you into expandingyour horizons.
The fourth thing, which doesn'tsit in the official list, but
(07:49):
one that the presenter shared,was structure.
So don't try and go offwilly-nilly and doing everything
, don't try and pathway planthings and just wing it, but
have a structure.
But don't get so caught up inperfection.
And we often say and hereperfection is the enemy of
progress.
So I like that Take smallactions, built on your strengths
and move from there.
Jenny (08:11):
Can I just say one more thing about knowledge, because
one of the things that I oftensay in my leadership development
courses is don't go to anothercourse, and this is from someone
who is running courses If youwant to be more confident.
Confidence comes from doing,not from learning.
So take a little bit oflearning, something that some
(08:32):
work, work that you've done, youknow.
Listen to some um podcast, ordo a bit of learning and then
try it in your classroom or tryit in your committee meeting.
Um, confidence comes from doing, not from learning.
Yes, agreed, and so, yes, youneed a baseline of knowledge,
but it's a little bit like ortry in your committee meeting.
Confidence comes from doing,not from learning necessarily.
Jocelyn Seamer (08:45):
Yes, agreed, and so, yes, you need a baseline of
knowledge, but it's a littlebit like my gardening books
Having more gardening booksdoesn't make my garden better.
I actually have to go and digup some stuff to get there.
Absolutely One of the thingsthat all leaders struggle with
well, okay, 99.9% of leadersstruggle with at some point is
having to address when somethinghasn't gone to plan.
(09:08):
Now, sometimes this is aconcrete conversation, sometimes
it's a challenging one.
Can you talk us through thedifference and what sets us up
for success when having what canbe perceived as tricky
conversations with anybody?
Jenny (09:24):
From a leader's perspective.
So this is a leader withsomebody that they line manage.
It's understanding that thereare two fundamental challenging
conversations or two kind ofconversations that you're likely
to have.
You'll have a myriad ofconversations in your day, but
(09:44):
when things have gone awry it'sprobably due to one of two
things.
One is an expectation that'snot met.
So there's a rule, a policy, aprocedure, an agreement,
something in the school businessplan, and someone's not done
what they're supposed to do.
They've not arrived on time, orthey've not handed in their
reports, or they've not donesomething that they were
(10:04):
supposed to do.
That's a concrete conversation,which is it's hard and fast,
there's a bottom line and you'vecrossed it.
And then there are those otherconversations that are a bit
more sensitive.
There's somebody who's talkedout of turn in the staff room,
somebody who's shared somethinginappropriate with a parent, but
it's not really crossed a rule.
(10:26):
Understanding the differencebetween those concrete and
sensitive conversations isabsolutely essential.
So if you're a leader andsomeone has digressed, they've
gone out of their lane andbroken a rule, done something
that's against a norm in ameeting, then just have that
conversation, because it's notpersonal, it's professional,
(10:48):
which is we've agreed that thisis how we're going to work, or
this is what the law says wehave to do, or this is what the
curriculum says.
And if people stray, then it'sthe leader's responsibility to
say oi, back in your lane,that's not appropriate.
And to do it as quickly aspossible.
And so they'll never feel greatthose conversations, but you
know that's not appropriate.
(11:08):
And to do it as quickly aspossible, and so they'll never
feel great those conversations.
But you know that's kind ofwhat you're paid to do.
But when you get the muddledwith those sensitive
conversations around, you knowyou spoke too loudly or you know
you didn't put your coffee cupin the dishwasher or somebody.
We often use the example ofsomeone who's got really bad BO.
You know they are far moresensitive conversations and they
are often personal and they usea different kind of framework
(11:32):
and I share a bunch of them inthe work that I do.
But the point here is to getclear about am I having
something?
A conversation about a rule, aprocess, an agreement that's
been broken?
Is this a bit more personal andthat helps you understand how
you're going to approach it.
Jocelyn Seamer (11:47):
Okay, so let can we workshop that a little bit,
can we role play it for thelisteners?
And let's pretend, Jen, that Ihave.
I'm a staff member and I'veshared information with a parent
about another student in theclass and I wasn't intending to
gossip.
I didn't seek the parent out tosay, hey, guess what?
(12:08):
But in the course ofconversation about that person's
child, I've mentioned somethingabout another child that I
shouldn't have said.
If you're my leader, how doesthat conversation go?
Jenny (12:19):
As a leader, my first thought is is there clearly
something?
As a leader, my first thoughtis is there clearly something in
the code of conduct or where wehave said do not share
information about other childrento parents?
Now, I would suspect that inmost schools, it would not be
hard to find something aboutconfidentiality.
(12:39):
So, therefore, it's technicallya concrete conversation, but
you would handle it sensitively.
So what would I do as a leader?
First of all, I would do it asquickly as humanly possible, so
as soon as possible after theevent, and if this is the first
time you've done it, I wouldhandle it pretty carefully and I
(13:00):
would say we use somethingcalled the feedback breach, and
I would say we use somethingcalled the feedback bridge,
which is not the same as a shitsandwich Sorry about swearing, I
can't think of a better wordbut a feedback bridge takes you
from where you are to where youwant to be.
So we start with feedback.
I really love the fact that youengage with parents and that
(13:20):
parents feel safe with you, andit would be even better if you
didn't share information aboutother students, because,
remember, we have to think aboutaccountability.
The and is the important part.
This is where you are, which isgreat and it would be even
better if you could do this.
And for most teachers, theywill be mortified that you give
(13:44):
them that feedback and that willbe enough, and that will be the
only time you've ever had tosay that and you can say look,
this is not about your teachingpractice, this is just about
what I heard and I'm justletting you know that I know,
and please don't do it again,and for most teachers, it will
never happen again.
Jocelyn Seamer (14:02):
That's good, and I think that feedback bridge
leaders.
Write that down.
Stop whatever you're doing,write it down and remember the
and is important, becauseremember everything before the
but is a lie, so we don't wantpeople to feel that we're
setting them up for a fall.
Can we run another scenario?
Let's say, though, I have apersonality style that is
(14:24):
perceived by others to be alittle prickly, and when I'm
encountering something within aPLC or a PLT planning time that
I don't quite understand or Idon't agree with, I'm much more
likely to shut it down than getcurious and work with the team
on building understanding.
So I might have said somethingin a planning meeting like I
(14:47):
don't know why we have to dothis anyway.
Why can't we just do what weused to?
Jenny (14:52):
In this case, it really doesn't matter if you're the
leader or a colleague.
However, we'll do it from aleader's perspective.
For any of these conversations,it's really important that you
already have a good relationship.
They're going to go better ifyou've got a really good
relationship, but let's justassume that that's already the
case.
I would be taking that personout and I would be giving them
(15:16):
some feedback.
Those are all feedbackconversations.
We want these people to be assuccessful as possible.
Feedback, those are allfeedback conversations.
We want these people to be assuccessful as possible.
And so I would say, jocelyn,can I just have a little
conversation with you Yesterdayin the meeting, when you shut
down the conversation and saidoh well, we've tried that before
or that won't work, I'mwondering if you noticed what
(15:37):
happened in the rest of themeeting.
What happened in the rest ofthe meeting, and then I would
shut up, then I would resist thetemptation to um get elevated
by Jocelyn's reaction and.
I'd say no.
No, I'm just wondering if younotice, because what I noticed
was that people stoppedcontributing, and one of our
values around here is thateverybody gets a say, and so
(16:01):
what you've done there we've notfixed it yet, it's just alerted
people to a blind spot, andthen you could go on to say what
I want you to notice in thenext meeting is blah, blah, blah
, blah.
Or I'm wondering if the nexttime that happens you could try,
(16:22):
but if they're not open to itat that point, then you might
need to give them that feedbacktwo or three times, you know,
the next time.
See, jocelyn, you did it againand I don't know if you noticed,
but Marianne got really upsetand she stopped speaking.
Jocelyn Seamer (16:39):
Because communication patterns can be
habits, right we.
And if someone's responding inthat way, what that tells me is
they're feeling a certain amountof stress about something.
So when we're stressed, wedefault to the automatic.
And if, over the course of ourlife, we made our way through
the world by let's quote BreneBrown again both you and my
(17:00):
friend, and she doesn't knowthat we exist, uh, in armoring
up and and getting combative,it's a hard habit to break, and
one of the things that you'vereminded me of throughout my
time in leadership is we're notcounselors and we're not
psychologists, we are coachesand we are support people and
we're leaders, so that there isa line there.
(17:20):
But that's why everybodylistening check out some of
Jenny's courses, because shegoes into these things in a lot
more detail.
We'll talk about that a littlebit more towards the end.
But those sensitiveconversations and those concrete
conversations, it's often partof the heart, one of the hardest
things that we do.
Jenny (17:38):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely .
And we're worried about howother people are going to react
when we have to share an officewith them for the rest of the
year or whatever.
It's really tricky, but don'tavoid them.
Build the relationship and thengive the feedback.
Jocelyn Seamer (17:57):
Yeah, great.
Another situation that arisesoften is in this changing world
of instruction.
I mean, if I think about thechanges that have happened in
instruction in schools in thelast five years, the growth has
been exponential, the changeshave been massive.
So four years ago, when I wasrunning my reading success in
(18:18):
the early primary years course,there were most people didn't
really have decodables in theirschool.
They didn't understand abouthigh frequency words, most
people still doing grouprotations.
Now the changes seem to those ofus who are, who have been on
this journey, as if they havealways been there.
But what's happened to ourprincipals, particularly
(18:41):
principals who are longerstanding principals, is that
during the time of all of thischange they haven't had the
opportunity to be in theclassroom, on the ground,
experiencing the changes thathave happened.
So they're trying to navigate,leading a team through a change
journey that they are notnecessarily the most experienced
(19:03):
people in.
So there's two perspectiveshere.
One of them is from theperspective of the instructional
coach, who has gone down themidnight rabbit holes, who has,
you know, been a little maybe alittle bit too hyper-focused on
learning about explicit teachingand structured literacy, and
they hold a great deal ofknowledge in the space and in
terms of what to do.
(19:24):
The other perspective is fromthe principal's perspective.
Who has to navigate?
The school council or the board?
They have to navigate theparent population, they have to
navigate the system, elementsthat instructional coaches never
have to deal with.
So I'm wondering whatunsolicited advice and we try
not to give that, but you knowthis is what the podcast is for,
(19:45):
right.
So what unsolicited advice doyou have for both the
instructional leader who'sfinding that their principal is
hesitant to make change becausethey are unsure about knowledge,
because they just haven't hadthe same opportunity as others
have, and also for the principalwho's trying to lead the team,
(20:07):
feeling unsure because theydon't feel like their knowledge
in this space is complete enoughto make reliable, sometimes
feeling like we have to makereliable, defensible decisions
that can stand up to scrutiny.
Jenny (20:25):
Oh, what a day.
Jocelyn Seamer (20:25):
They're going to broadcast episodes in
themselves.
So just short and sharp rightnow will get us out of trouble
for this week.
We'll come back on some otherepisodes and explore those
topics.
Jenny (20:35):
So, for the principle stay humble.
The minute you start to pretendthat you know what you're doing
, that is when you get introuble or when you go oh, this
is all beyond me, I'm just goingto hand it over.
So, um, for the for theprincipal stay humble, say I
don't know.
This is not my area ofexpertise.
I trust you, but we're going tohave robust conversations about
(20:57):
this because I need to learn.
I don't need to know how to.
I don't need to personally runa daily review session although
it would be awesome if you didbut I need to know what they
look like and you're going to bemy conduit.
So stay humble.
Ask lots of questions, keepyour guard down, because you
(21:19):
said unsure, I often think it'sfear.
You know we're fear, and whenwe get fearful, I don't know,
I'm out of control.
I've got the system telling methis.
I've got teachers telling methat.
Then you're not going to makereally good decisions.
For the instructional leader, Igive you permission to ask your
boss to meet regularly for 15minutes a week.
(21:41):
Can we have a 15 minute checkin every week and I'm going to
feedback what I've been doingand you can ask me questions and
I can just know that, as theinstructional leader, I'm on
track.
Now.
I'm not saying that necessarilyhas to be with the principal,
whoever your most, who your linemanager is, but in order for
(22:01):
you to feel successful, you needto know what success is.
You know what they're, and alsoyou need to be sharing success,
sharing your challenges andletting them know what's coming
up for you.
You know.
So this is what I'm working onin the next fortnight.
This is how NAPLAN testing isgoing to impact my coaching in
(22:23):
classrooms.
So regular communication buildsrelationships, helps each other
understand each other's roleand gives you the support that
you need as the instructionalleader.
Jocelyn Seamer (22:36):
Yeah, beautiful, thank you.
And, as we said, whole podcastepisodes all by themselves.
Beautiful, thank you.
And, as we said, whole podcastepisodes all by themselves.
Some of the things that I thinkmake it difficult for us to
take action in the space ofclassroom practice is
conflicting advice and I'mcoming from a literacy
perspective now, because that'swhat this podcast is about and
(22:56):
so we hear from different peoplethat this bit is, this thing is
the best.
No, no, do it this way it's thebest.
Everyone's claiming an evidencebase.
Some of that's not true, someof it is, and when we don't have
as robust a knowledge base aswe would like, it's really hard
to figure out what to do.
So I guess this is less of aleadership question and more of
(23:18):
a.
Can you think back through youryears of education for me and
think about and you will haveseen this the things come and
they go, and some of them arefads and some of them are
actually really good,evidence-based things that we
didn't adopt.
How can leadership teamsnavigate the minefield of
(23:39):
conflicting advice and some ofthose clever marketing?
And again, I'm fully aware ofthe irony, everybody considering
the business that I run but howdo we distinguish between fads
and clever marketing, and whatis actually robust, sensible
advice in a way that means thatwe don't have to go and become a
(24:01):
university PhD candidate inorder to have that knowledge.
What does that look like?
Jenny (24:08):
That is, in fact, an excellent question.
I'm for those of you who arefamiliar my DISC style is I, so
I'm all about enthusiasm and newthings and shiny objects, and I
was that dreadful principalthat had a great idea one
morning and we're all going tochange things.
I would do things differentlynow.
However, my training wasactually in direct instruction,
(24:30):
and I remember when I ended upin primary schools for the first
time, you know, as a graduate,I entered into the middle of the
whole language sphere, whichwas fine, and I was trained as a
first-tips teacher, and then weall went to outcomes, but there
was this little bit in my heartthat absolutely knew that that
(24:52):
direct teaching of skills was soimportant, especially since I
was working with students withdisabilities and special
learning needs.
So there is something about it.
Really, I mean it should beabout data, but there is
something that says thisabsolutely ethically and morally
feels right to me.
(25:12):
I do not want anyone to takethat as good advice about how
you should decide what's worthteaching or not.
Try something.
Do not invest in the milliondollars teaching or not.
Try something.
Do not invest in the milliondollars worth of it.
Try it.
Do it in a sprint.
Is it making a difference?
Can we build it in rather thanbolt it on to what we've already
(25:32):
done?
Is it making a difference?
Does the data say people aregrowing, both the students and
the staff.
Are the staff feeling moreconfident and competent?
And if they are, they're goingto teach well.
And any intervention is a goodintervention if teachers want um
are engaged in it.
So the the teaching sprints, doit for a short amount of time.
(25:54):
Don't invest in the wholeprogram.
Have a trial, but if you're onyour fifth trial in five
semesters, then make a decisionbasically and and it is does
this suit us and our context,and is the data telling us it
does?
Jocelyn Seamer (26:10):
I have a yes and um.
So yes to everything jenny justsaid.
And back to that sensitive spot, the tightrope walking of what
we feel.
Uh, so many teachers who wereearly adopters into the
structured literacy space gotthere because they were
reflecting on the students withdifficulty in their class and
(26:30):
seeing that what was beingpromoted as the status quo thou
shalt always actually wasn'tmeeting their needs.
And the question was well, whatare we doing for those children
?
So I don't think we candiscount our bigger purpose in
teaching as a part of thedecision-making process and as a
(26:51):
part of the whole thing.
So how do we balance it?
Sometimes I'll say let's makesure that we are keeping an eye
on the research, as best weunderstand it, and we can be the
royal we, as in the profession,because things will grow and
learn and things will change.
Keep an eye on the data,because that's your evidence of
a job well done, as Jenny justsaid, and keep an eye on
(27:11):
well-being of you and thestudents.
And I think Jen and I have saidthe same things in two
different ways.
Whichever one of those worksbest for you today, as you're
listening, grab it, take hold ofit, take bits from both.
However it works.
So let's say that we havedecided on an approach, we've
adopted a program or a resourceand we're not treating that
(27:33):
program or resource as the endgoal.
It is a tool that we're usingto get great student outcomes.
There's often a gap between thewhat we do in training and what
we learn about, and I'm forpeople you can't see because
you're in the podcast.
Everyone air quotes, learn theintroduction about something we
have in PL, and then whathappens in the classroom.
(27:56):
Some of that is just a normalpart of a learning journey.
Some of it is people not doingwhat they need to.
Some of that, though it's notalways, I just don't want to.
Sometimes the won't is actuallyfear in disguise.
So how do we approach this, jen, from a perspective of assuming
(28:16):
positive intent in all of ourteam that they actually want to
do a good job.
I don't know anyone who gets upin the morning and says, oh, I
choose to do a bad job today.
How do we walk that linebetween assuming positive intent
but then also, for the rest ofour team and for our students,
holding people accountable?
How do we find, dare I say, thebalance in the support and the
(28:41):
accountability?
What mechanisms.
Have you seen work in schools?
Jenny (28:48):
To me, it comes down to coaching, and it's because
coaching takes us from knowingto doing and, in fact, to being
so.
Instead of just knowing aboutsomething and doing it, we
actually embed it in ourpractice, and you and I have
shared the research that Joyceand Showers did 20-odd years ago
(29:08):
, which sort of said if you justdo a professional learning,
you'll learn this much, and itwon't necessarily embed itself,
but if you get coached over time.
So coaching is accountability.
Now there is pure coaching,which is kind of the work that I
do, which is, you know, when Iwork with my veteran principals,
(29:28):
I don't say, what are you doingtomorrow?
And then what are you doing?
I understand that they knowwhat they're doing.
However, if we're trying a newstrategy, the role of the
instructional coach is to checkin regularly about how are you
going with this element, whatare you noticing?
Maybe doing some classroomobservations and then
(29:49):
co-constructing a rubric orsomething to make sure we're
looking at the same thing anddiscuss the data, and that is
helping people move fromtransition from one way of
teaching to another, and socoaching is absolutely essential
.
To me, it's the only thing thatworks.
(30:10):
You can't make people comply.
You can only make people.
You can make people comply, butwe want them to commit, we want
them to go full in and do itproperly, and coaching is the
method that I think works best.
However, if we don't properlytrain and support our coaches,
it's just another thing that wedo and that we spend money on.
Jocelyn Seamer (30:34):
Yes, and what happens to those coaches is the
school says we have a position,who do we have?
Okay, congratulations, you're acoach, you're a great teacher,
now go forth and make brilliance.
And we haven't got the trainingfor them.
So certainly part of the workthat both you and I do sits in
that space, in helping people bebetter leaders of all sorts,
(30:56):
including instructionally intheir schools.
How has the leadershiplandscape changed over the last,
let's say, 10 to 15 years sinceyou left school land and to now
?
What changes have you seen?
Let's go good, bad and ugly.
Jenny (31:17):
The requirements of senior leadership have, just as
teacher workload has increasedexponentially.
Principal workload hasincreased exponentially.
To be completely honest, in myearly days it was easy.
We did not much except floataround and sign the occasional
(31:39):
check.
These days we have one-linebudgets and we're you know
they're managing budgets ofmillions of dollars, and in any
other business you would have aHR department, you would have a
marketing department, you wouldhave a finance department, you
would have a CEO and you'd havepeople in charge of all of that.
In schools, principals are thatperson.
(32:02):
Plus, we've had an increase insocietal expectations about what
schools will and won't do, plusthe inclusion of kids with
special educational needs, whoadd an entire complexity.
Jocelyn Seamer (32:20):
It's not bad, it's just.
It just takes more work.
Jenny (32:22):
So that's how the landscape is changed, and more
money and people, Jenny, as well.
So I just want to be reallyclear this is of the podcast.
Jocelyn Seamer (32:26):
Jenny's not saying students in special needs
shouldn't be in schools.
That's her background.
What we both often talk aboutis the need for funding and
people and resourcing to supportthat appropriately.
Jenny (32:39):
That's where we head and those kids who are funded, they
will come with more money andmore people, and that's more
complexity.
And those kids who aren'tfunded don't come with more
money and don't come with morepeople and more people, and
that's more complexity.
And those kids who aren'tfunded don't come with more
money and don't come with morepeople, and that is also complex
.
So the complexity and thesystem requirements and the
accountability requirements arehuge on principals and you're
(33:01):
now seeing that in classrooms.
Jocelyn Seamer (33:03):
And what's better than it used to be from
when you were going intoleadership and what that
landscape looks like.
What have we gotten right?
What's better now than it usedto be?
Jenny (33:15):
So there was a period of time where they were considering
just putting managers, so themanagers of the water
corporation could just transferacross and be managers of
schools, because we were justmanaging, weren't we?
So what is better is that wenow know that leaders have to
know something aboutconstruction and be
instructional leaders, atwhatever level that might be.
(33:37):
So what is better is that weunderstand that schools are
places of learning, they're notjust things that we organise.
What is better?
Actually having a robustcurriculum, despite the fact
that it keeps changing.
There are now resources, systemresources in most places to
back up what teachers aresupposed to be doing, because it
(33:59):
was all a bit choose your ownadventure before then, which was
fun, but I'm not sure we taughtpeople.
I think kids learnt moreaccidentally in the old days.
The good kids learnt and theothers didn't, whereas now there
is more support, what's better.
I just think schools andteachers have always done really
(34:20):
good jobs and I tend to thinkwe're looking at.
I get really worried aboutpeople leaving the profession,
and I think some of it is due tothe noise in social media and
the media about how bad schoolsare.
And yes, they're hard and yes,they're difficult, but I still
(34:41):
think teaching is an excellentprofession and then 99% of
people in schools turn up forthe right reason and to do a
good job, and that hasn'tchanged.
Jocelyn Seamer (34:51):
You and I both get to hear from people every
day, in the work we do, who areso passionate about their
students and so excited by thegains that they make.
So my wish for us all is can wejust simplify and have a little
bit of common sense?
But there is no profession thatis free of complexity.
(35:12):
There is no job that doesn'thave bits in it that are tricky.
So let's adopt what theevidence says in a lot of cases,
which is keep it simple, don'ttry and do too much, one thing
at a time until we've got it,and then we move on.
And that can apply to all areasof school, whether it's
teaching students or developingas leaders as well.
(35:35):
Jen, I'd like to finish this offwith what teachers and leaders
can do.
So let's go instructionalleaders, aps or DPs, depending
on what they're called where youare.
So, seeing that one rung kindof below the principal, what can
we do to foster that sense ofexcitement and positivity with
(35:58):
and for our school communities?
Because, as you say, there's abig narrative out there all
about how devastatingly badeverything is.
I personally don't buy it.
Yep, it's tricky, but there'salso wonderful things.
How do we keep our team's buson the road in well-being and in
moving forward positivelytogether as a cohesive group of
(36:21):
people, all working for the onegoal.
Jenny (36:23):
Oh, such a good question.
I'm going to answer in multipleways and hopefully it meets the
brief I say when I'm workingwith my leaders.
Be, really, it goes back toyour thing about being simple.
All leaders, regardless ofwhere they are in the school,
should know the two things thatwe are going to put all our
(36:44):
effort into this year or in thisplanning period.
That should be really clear inyour business plan or your
strategic plan, whatever thatlooks like.
But these are the two or threethings that we are going to
devote time and effort to.
They're your hedgehog principles.
They're what Jim Collins, wouldyou know, say.
(37:05):
They're you're non-negotiables,they're your one thing.
And then you use every singleopportunity as a leader to talk
about, promote, reinforce thosethings.
So at every school assembly youstand up and say so.
Let's imagine, your one thingis one year of progress for each
kid every year.
It might be as broad as that,but it could be, as you know,
(37:29):
far more simple than that.
So you stand up at assembly andyou say we've been focusing
really hard on making sure everykid makes one year of progress
and here are the merit awardsfor year two, and these guys are
really making progress in theirspelling and everything gets
tied back to that one or twothings all the messages at
(37:49):
school, council meetings, atstaff meetings.
When you're out at the gate atthe beginning of the day saying
we are making such good progress, I'm loving the way you're
walking, that's exactly how wemake progress in this school.
And bringing all of themessages back to those key
things.
That keeps it simple.
Then people know what they'reaccountable for.
(38:11):
I think then the communityknows what's valuable, the staff
know what's valuable, the kidsknow in kid language and keeping
it nice and simple andstreamlined.
We need to get a balancebetween process and people.
We need to have really strongrelationships, but processes
(38:33):
keep us safe.
Processes when we're anxiousabout how we do something, we
like to go back to a flow chartor a map of some description and
that helps us feel less anxious.
So I'm not naturally a processperson, but I understand that if
I have a roadmap a flow chart,a business plan, something that
(38:57):
I can send people back to,meeting norms, very clear
agendas.
We need low variance routinesfor our staff as well as our
staff Indeed we do, debbie,indeed we do.
So if we get that balance right, we trust people to follow the
process.
Then that's what gives ussurety, that's what stops the
(39:21):
fear, and you want processesthat exist.
So listen to this,instructional leaders you want
to create something that existswhen you're gone.
So if you're the only expert,you're the only person who runs
the meeting, you're the onlyperson who makes the resources,
you're not empowering otherpeople.
The minute you leave, whateveryou're running disappears.
(39:42):
So, instructional leaders,deputies, whatever you are
creating processes that allowyou to remove yourself and that
will still continue when you'regone.
Jocelyn Seamer (39:54):
And how often have you?
And I said Jen, you fall to thelevel of your systems.
So if you have a major fluepidemic in the place you live
and you've got a third of yourstaff away, the systems you have
in place will hold you up.
If your school has been runningwell because of the individuals
(40:14):
involved but you don't have anydocumented systems and I'm not
talking about 150 page documenthere, we're just talking about a
one pager for this thing and aone pager for that thing if you
don't have those processesdocumented, when the people who
held up the school are not therefor some reason they could have
gone on year five, six, camp,something, whatever it is then
(40:36):
everything falls over and thenit's extra stressful.
So you fall to the level ofyour systems, everybody.
And when you've got them, asjen said, they, they hold you up
.
It also is I'm listening to you,jenny I'm thinking about a
phrase you've used with mebefore, which has been that we
operationalise our values.
So, coming back at, let's bringeverything back to that one
core value.
(40:57):
It's how we really live it, andthen the value becomes
transformational for the schoolrather than being a thing that's
on the poster that we go.
What was that again?
Jenny (41:08):
I say to people, what are your school values?
Oh, we've got four of them.
Yeah, great, what are they?
Or I say, what's your purpose,mission, vision?
And some people can sprout itbut then can't tell you what it
looks like on the ground.
And so it's never a waste oftime to say actually, what does
this look like If we're usingour values in our year one, two
(41:29):
phase of learning team?
What does that look like?
How are we talking to eachother, how are we acting and
interacting?
And then formalise that.
And I always say if it's a rulefor the kids, it's a rule for
the adults.
So I make my norms very muchlike student rules.
I say things like in this, thisteam, we arrive on time.
(41:50):
In this team, we make sureeveryone gets a turn.
In this team, we, rather thanwe, respect other people's
opinions.
Well, sometimes respect meansrobust conversations.
Sometimes respect means I donot agree with you conversations
(42:11):
.
Sometimes respect means I donot agree with you.
Um, so instead of big edu speak, I say just make them like
school rules in this meeting weor in this team, we, and just
make it nice and specific, andthat's operationalizing your
values and, as you said, then,bringing everything back to that
one hedgehog principle leadershave a a right of good to great
by Jim Collins, and that's thatone principle that underpins
everything.
Jocelyn Seamer (42:32):
Jenny, I think we could talk for another four
hours and still not even getclose to the range of topics
that we could be discussing.
So let's hold space to comeback together at another point
in the future.
But thank you so much for beingwith us.
I'd like to like for realfinish off now, because I said
we're finishing off before.
But one more thing Can youplease let everybody know about
(42:56):
launching into leadership, thecourse that you have coming up
and full disclosure everyone, Ido not receive a dollar If you
choose to join Jenny's program.
I'm sharing this with youbecause I know how
transformational it is to beproperly equipped as a leader to
do the role that we're doing.
So, jen, tell us a bit aboutLaunching Into Leadership and
(43:18):
where people can find out moreinformation about that program
and you more generally.
Jenny (43:23):
People can find me at Positively Beaming.
People can find me atPositively Beaming On Instagram.
It's Positively Beaming, jenny,but positivelybeaming.
com.
au.
And I'm just going to go back alittle bit and let people know
where Launching Into Leadershipcame from.
For many years, I ran the Womenin Leadership programs for both
(43:47):
the Department of Education andCatholic Education here in
Western Australia and Ideveloped.
It was a four-day program whenI ran it with them and we ran it
face-to-face for years.
And then that pandemic hit andwe put everything online.
And the first year we put itonline, I thought we're never
going to have the same feelingas getting 25 women
(44:11):
predominantly in the same room.
We're not going to walk awaywith that same.
Oh look, we're all in thistogether.
How brilliant, what a fabulouslearning environment.
However, we did when we ran itonline.
So I still run it face-to-faceas a two-day program.
So I still run it face-to-faceas a two-day program, but I've
spent the summer rejigginglaunching into leadership.
(44:32):
It's for new and inspiringleaders.
You go through eight modules atyour own pace and you get
support from me.
I pop in every now and again tomake sure that you're on track
and that you don't have anyquestions, and we look through
things such as a new model ofleadership, about what good
leaders have and are.
We look at your styles, we lookat your um uh, just some things
(44:58):
about the, the traps that newleaders fall into and some
strategies for getting out ofthem.
We've got a whole module onconfidence and that is going
live in May, so that's launchinginto leadership.
That's fully online these days.
There used to be an onlinecomponent, but these days I just
(45:20):
check in with the individualsas the program progresses, so I
would love you to join me.
It's available for purchase now, but we go live on the 1st of
May.
Jocelyn Seamer (45:34):
Wonderful.
So, jenny, you didn't telleveryone about your podcast,
which is called PositivelyLeading.
So if you loved what you heardhere today, check out Jenny's
podcast, positively Leading,where she interviews school
leaders and talks about the realworld of leadership in schools.
And, you know, always keepingit real it's a good thing, but
(45:56):
coming from a place of evidence,coming from a place of
experience, coming from a placeof having very credible
information and strategies toshare as well, it's been a
pleasure to have you on thepodcast.
Thank you so much.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
We meet Everybody else.
Until I see you in the nextepisode of the podcast.
(46:17):
Happy teaching, bye.
Hello, hello everyone, welcome to the
Structured Literacy Podcast.
I have a special treat for you.
We are not only recording fromTasmania, the land of the Palawa
people, but we are alsorecording from Noongar country,
because we have a guest, andthat guest is Jenny Cole, who
was my leadership coach when Iworked in leadership in schools.
(00:20):
Jenny welcome.
Jenny (00:22):
Thank you, Jocelyn, lovely to be here.
Jocelyn Seamer (00:24):
Oh, Jen, for people who haven't met you or
heard of you before, tell us abit about yourself.
Jenny (00:32):
Okay, well, I'm old so I'm going to give you the short
version.
Currently I call myself a coachand a consultant, leadership
consultant and a recoveringprincipal.
I started my career as ateacher aid, as an education
assistant while I was studyingto be a special needs teacher,
and so I was a special needsteacher and, for all sorts of
(00:53):
reasons, became a principalquite early in small schools,
did various other things andfound myself in a large
education support special schoolwith very challenging kids but
even more challenging adults,and about 15 years ago, before
(01:14):
it was fashionable, I burnt outand became overwhelmed and left
the education department anddecided that I probably needed a
way to pay my mortgage and setup my own company.
And I've done various things,but these days my focus is on
leadership, particularly new andaspiring leaders and those that
(01:36):
are kind of team leader levelin schools, so the head of the
phase of learning team or thehead of the curriculum committee
or those sorts of teacherleaders.
So that's the work that I tendto do these days in my
professional learning, but Ialso coach a lot of veteran and
experienced leaders.
Jocelyn Seamer (01:56):
And Jen, your work is transformational and it
was for me when I was a leaderand I sometimes jokingly say
that learning from you and beingcoached by you helped me know
how to not want to punch peopleand and everyone has a giggle
and you know that's very funnybut the reality is that when we
don't understand or we're not inthe space, the headspace of
(02:20):
meeting people where they're upto, we can get really frustrated
.
So any leader out there, at anyspace, in any profession, if
you felt frustrated by thepeople around you, that's a
really good sign.
There's learning to do and itwas for me and I learned that
half the problem was me and theway I was approaching situations
(02:44):
, not actually the other person,and in fact they weren't a
problem Once I figured out andhad some support to actually
adjust what I was doing to get agreat outcome for everyone, to
get that win-win.
So anyone out there, it's okay,you're not alone and every time
you feel it, it's okay, it isjust a point of learning.
So, jen, we've got lots ofleaders who are either informal
(03:09):
leaders, so they are a teacherin a classroom supporting
colleagues, they'reinstructional leaders, or
they're principals and evensystem leadership and system
coaches and support people.
So we've got a big range ofaudience in this podcast.
We're going to try today andanswer some of the most common
questions that I have from themand you'll feel free to throw in
(03:32):
anything that you think mightbe useful that you're seeing in
school land as well, and justfor a bit of feedback everyone.
Jenny works across stages ofschooling, so she's worked with
early childhood staff, primary,secondary working with teachers,
but also classroom assistantsand leadership.
So there's lots of experiencethat Jen has to draw on.
(03:53):
I think one of the things thatso many leaders and teachers
experience is imposter syndrome,that little voice that says
you're not good enough, youdon't know enough, you can't do
it.
So how can we as human beingsnavigate imposter syndrome and
(04:14):
what are the habits or routinesthat we can maybe adopt and put
on repeat to support us when wecome across these issues?
Jenny (04:24):
Yeah, imposter syndrome.
I tend to think of it more,just about confidence and
confidence being a thing that isnot permanent and fixed.
We can be really confident inone area, like a really
confident classroom teacher, butthen feel a little imposter
syndrome or a little wobbly whenwe're trying to lead a
(04:44):
committee or give our advice toa principal.
So there's a couple offundamentals around confidence.
Confidence keeps us stuck, andso confidence is about taking
action, and as soon as we startto take action, even if it's
imperfect action, we just findthat momentum gets us out.
(05:05):
So do something, do somethingsmall, take action.
A couple of other things aroundimposter syndrome is knowing
that you have strengths andleveraging those.
So doing more of what alreadyworks, rather than trying to say
I don't know anything aboutsyntax and getting all stressed
(05:26):
and worried that that's adeficit.
Instead say how did I learnabout morphology?
And do that again.
So find out what works, do moreof it and fail fast.
And often is one of the thingsthat I talk about, which is it
joins those things together,which is about taking imperfect
(05:46):
action.
We're often really worriedabout what other people are
thinking about us, and so webeaver away and make a beautiful
scope and sequence, that'scolor-coded and has everything
all in the right columns andlaminated, and then we put it in
front of the committee who says, oh, oh, you didn't think about
such and such, and thatfeedback feels wounding, whereas
(06:10):
if you put out a what BreneBrown calls a shitty first draft
and put it out and iterate andwrite all over it, it doesn't
look pretty, but it's a work inprogress and that is more likely
to fuel your confidence.
Try something, give it a go, dosomething, um, get feedback as
(06:31):
you go, rather than put out afinished product and then get
upset because people don't likeit or the principles change
their mind and and all that workgoes down the toilet.
Jocelyn Seamer (06:42):
so there are a couple of strategies yeah, yeah,
and I've had the thought overthe years that nobody knocks on
your front door and hands you abucket of confidence and then
you go.
Right now I can go doeverything, and I like what you
said about taking action, thatit's not about being perfect on
the first day.
I'm listening to what you'resaying about action and failing
fast and reflecting back on someof the cognitive science that
(07:05):
we have about learning.
So, folks, any learningquestion you have about
grown-ups, go to the learningresearch about people in general
and what we would maybe thinkabout as information about
children and use that.
So it was shared at a conferencelast week that creativity
requires three things.
The first one is knowledge.
So if you don't feel like youknow things, the first one is
(07:25):
knowledge.
So if you don't feel like youknow things, you have more
knowledge.
The second one was time.
You need time to process andhave a go.
The third one was failure, andthat links directly with what
you said, jen, because it's theopportunity to try something and
it doesn't work and then youthink about it.
That pushes you into expandingyour horizons.
The fourth thing, which doesn'tsit in the official list, but
(07:49):
one that the presenter shared,was structure.
So don't try and go offwilly-nilly and doing everything
, don't try and pathway planthings and just wing it, but
have a structure.
But don't get so caught up inperfection.
And we often say and hereperfection is the enemy of
progress.
So I like that Take smallactions, built on your strengths
and move from there.
Jenny (08:11):
Can I just say one more thing about knowledge, because
one of the things that I oftensay in my leadership development
courses is don't go to anothercourse, and this is from someone
who is running courses If youwant to be more confident.
Confidence comes from doing,not from learning.
So take a little bit oflearning, something that some
(08:32):
work, work that you've done, youknow.
Listen to some um podcast, ordo a bit of learning and then
try it in your classroom or tryit in your committee meeting.
Um, confidence comes from doing, not from learning.
Yes, agreed, and so, yes, youneed a baseline of knowledge,
but it's a little bit like ortry in your committee meeting.
Confidence comes from doing,not from learning necessarily.
Jocelyn Seamer (08:45):
Yes, agreed, and so, yes, you need a baseline of
knowledge, but it's a littlebit like my gardening books
Having more gardening booksdoesn't make my garden better.
I actually have to go and digup some stuff to get there.
Absolutely One of the thingsthat all leaders struggle with
well, okay, 99.9% of leadersstruggle with at some point is
having to address when somethinghasn't gone to plan.
(09:08):
Now, sometimes this is aconcrete conversation, sometimes
it's a challenging one.
Can you talk us through thedifference and what sets us up
for success when having what canbe perceived as tricky
conversations with anybody?
Jenny (09:24):
From a leader's perspective.
So this is a leader withsomebody that they line manage.
It's understanding that thereare two fundamental challenging
conversations or two kind ofconversations that you're likely
to have.
You'll have a myriad ofconversations in your day, but
(09:44):
when things have gone awry it'sprobably due to one of two
things.
One is an expectation that'snot met.
So there's a rule, a policy, aprocedure, an agreement,
something in the school businessplan, and someone's not done
what they're supposed to do.
They've not arrived on time, orthey've not handed in their
reports, or they've not donesomething that they were
(10:04):
supposed to do.
That's a concrete conversation,which is it's hard and fast,
there's a bottom line and you'vecrossed it.
And then there are those otherconversations that are a bit
more sensitive.
There's somebody who's talkedout of turn in the staff room,
somebody who's shared somethinginappropriate with a parent, but
it's not really crossed a rule.
(10:26):
Understanding the differencebetween those concrete and
sensitive conversations isabsolutely essential.
So if you're a leader andsomeone has digressed, they've
gone out of their lane andbroken a rule, done something
that's against a norm in ameeting, then just have that
conversation, because it's notpersonal, it's professional,
(10:48):
which is we've agreed that thisis how we're going to work, or
this is what the law says wehave to do, or this is what the
curriculum says.
And if people stray, then it'sthe leader's responsibility to
say oi, back in your lane,that's not appropriate.
And to do it as quickly aspossible.
And so they'll never feel greatthose conversations, but you
know that's not appropriate.
(11:08):
And to do it as quickly aspossible, and so they'll never
feel great those conversations.
But you know that's kind ofwhat you're paid to do.
But when you get the muddledwith those sensitive
conversations around, you knowyou spoke too loudly or you know
you didn't put your coffee cupin the dishwasher or somebody.
We often use the example ofsomeone who's got really bad BO.
You know they are far moresensitive conversations and they
are often personal and they usea different kind of framework
(11:32):
and I share a bunch of them inthe work that I do.
But the point here is to getclear about am I having
something?
A conversation about a rule, aprocess, an agreement that's
been broken?
Is this a bit more personal andthat helps you understand how
you're going to approach it.
Jocelyn Seamer (11:47):
Okay, so let can we workshop that a little bit,
can we role play it for thelisteners?
And let's pretend, Jen, that Ihave.
I'm a staff member and I'veshared information with a parent
about another student in theclass and I wasn't intending to
gossip.
I didn't seek the parent out tosay, hey, guess what?
(12:08):
But in the course ofconversation about that person's
child, I've mentioned somethingabout another child that I
shouldn't have said.
If you're my leader, how doesthat conversation go?
Jenny (12:19):
As a leader, my first thought is is there clearly
something?
As a leader, my first thoughtis is there clearly something in
the code of conduct or where wehave said do not share
information about other childrento parents?
Now, I would suspect that inmost schools, it would not be
hard to find something aboutconfidentiality.
(12:39):
So, therefore, it's technicallya concrete conversation, but
you would handle it sensitively.
So what would I do as a leader?
First of all, I would do it asquickly as humanly possible, so
as soon as possible after theevent, and if this is the first
time you've done it, I wouldhandle it pretty carefully and I
(13:00):
would say we use somethingcalled the feedback breach, and
I would say we use somethingcalled the feedback bridge,
which is not the same as a shitsandwich Sorry about swearing, I
can't think of a better wordbut a feedback bridge takes you
from where you are to where youwant to be.
So we start with feedback.
I really love the fact that youengage with parents and that
(13:20):
parents feel safe with you, andit would be even better if you
didn't share information aboutother students, because,
remember, we have to think aboutaccountability.
The and is the important part.
This is where you are, which isgreat and it would be even
better if you could do this.
And for most teachers, theywill be mortified that you give
(13:44):
them that feedback and that willbe enough, and that will be the
only time you've ever had tosay that and you can say look,
this is not about your teachingpractice, this is just about
what I heard and I'm justletting you know that I know,
and please don't do it again,and for most teachers, it will
never happen again.
Jocelyn Seamer (14:02):
That's good, and I think that feedback bridge
leaders.
Write that down.
Stop whatever you're doing,write it down and remember the
and is important, becauseremember everything before the
but is a lie, so we don't wantpeople to feel that we're
setting them up for a fall.
Can we run another scenario?
Let's say, though, I have apersonality style that is
(14:24):
perceived by others to be alittle prickly, and when I'm
encountering something within aPLC or a PLT planning time that
I don't quite understand or Idon't agree with, I'm much more
likely to shut it down than getcurious and work with the team
on building understanding.
So I might have said somethingin a planning meeting like I
(14:47):
don't know why we have to dothis anyway.
Why can't we just do what weused to?
Jenny (14:52):
In this case, it really doesn't matter if you're the
leader or a colleague.
However, we'll do it from aleader's perspective.
For any of these conversations,it's really important that you
already have a good relationship.
They're going to go better ifyou've got a really good
relationship, but let's justassume that that's already the
case.
I would be taking that personout and I would be giving them
(15:16):
some feedback.
Those are all feedbackconversations.
We want these people to be assuccessful as possible.
Feedback, those are allfeedback conversations.
We want these people to be assuccessful as possible.
And so I would say, jocelyn,can I just have a little
conversation with you Yesterdayin the meeting, when you shut
down the conversation and saidoh well, we've tried that before
or that won't work, I'mwondering if you noticed what
(15:37):
happened in the rest of themeeting.
What happened in the rest ofthe meeting, and then I would
shut up, then I would resist thetemptation to um get elevated
by Jocelyn's reaction and.
I'd say no.
No, I'm just wondering if younotice, because what I noticed
was that people stoppedcontributing, and one of our
values around here is thateverybody gets a say, and so
(16:01):
what you've done there we've notfixed it yet, it's just alerted
people to a blind spot, andthen you could go on to say what
I want you to notice in thenext meeting is blah, blah, blah
, blah.
Or I'm wondering if the nexttime that happens you could try,
(16:22):
but if they're not open to itat that point, then you might
need to give them that feedbacktwo or three times, you know,
the next time.
See, jocelyn, you did it againand I don't know if you noticed,
but Marianne got really upsetand she stopped speaking.
Jocelyn Seamer (16:39):
Because communication patterns can be
habits, right we.
And if someone's responding inthat way, what that tells me is
they're feeling a certain amountof stress about something.
So when we're stressed, wedefault to the automatic.
And if, over the course of ourlife, we made our way through
the world by let's quote BreneBrown again both you and my
(17:00):
friend, and she doesn't knowthat we exist, uh, in armoring
up and and getting combative,it's a hard habit to break, and
one of the things that you'vereminded me of throughout my
time in leadership is we're notcounselors and we're not
psychologists, we are coachesand we are support people and
we're leaders, so that there isa line there.
(17:20):
But that's why everybodylistening check out some of
Jenny's courses, because shegoes into these things in a lot
more detail.
We'll talk about that a littlebit more towards the end.
But those sensitiveconversations and those concrete
conversations, it's often partof the heart, one of the hardest
things that we do.
Jenny (17:38):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely .
And we're worried about howother people are going to react
when we have to share an officewith them for the rest of the
year or whatever.
It's really tricky, but don'tavoid them.
Build the relationship and thengive the feedback.
Jocelyn Seamer (17:57):
Yeah, great.
Another situation that arisesoften is in this changing world
of instruction.
I mean, if I think about thechanges that have happened in
instruction in schools in thelast five years, the growth has
been exponential, the changeshave been massive.
So four years ago, when I wasrunning my reading success in
(18:18):
the early primary years course,there were most people didn't
really have decodables in theirschool.
They didn't understand abouthigh frequency words, most
people still doing grouprotations.
Now the changes seem to those ofus who are, who have been on
this journey, as if they havealways been there.
But what's happened to ourprincipals, particularly
(18:41):
principals who are longerstanding principals, is that
during the time of all of thischange they haven't had the
opportunity to be in theclassroom, on the ground,
experiencing the changes thathave happened.
So they're trying to navigate,leading a team through a change
journey that they are notnecessarily the most experienced
(19:03):
people in.
So there's two perspectiveshere.
One of them is from theperspective of the instructional
coach, who has gone down themidnight rabbit holes, who has,
you know, been a little maybe alittle bit too hyper-focused on
learning about explicit teachingand structured literacy, and
they hold a great deal ofknowledge in the space and in
terms of what to do.
(19:24):
The other perspective is fromthe principal's perspective.
Who has to navigate?
The school council or the board?
They have to navigate theparent population, they have to
navigate the system, elementsthat instructional coaches never
have to deal with.
So I'm wondering whatunsolicited advice and we try
not to give that, but you knowthis is what the podcast is for,
(19:45):
right.
So what unsolicited advice doyou have for both the
instructional leader who'sfinding that their principal is
hesitant to make change becausethey are unsure about knowledge,
because they just haven't hadthe same opportunity as others
have, and also for the principalwho's trying to lead the team,
(20:07):
feeling unsure because theydon't feel like their knowledge
in this space is complete enoughto make reliable, sometimes
feeling like we have to makereliable, defensible decisions
that can stand up to scrutiny.
Jenny (20:25):
Oh, what a day.
Jocelyn Seamer (20:25):
They're going to broadcast episodes in
themselves.
So just short and sharp rightnow will get us out of trouble
for this week.
We'll come back on some otherepisodes and explore those
topics.
Jenny (20:35):
So, for the principle stay humble.
The minute you start to pretendthat you know what you're doing
, that is when you get introuble or when you go oh, this
is all beyond me, I'm just goingto hand it over.
So, um, for the for theprincipal stay humble, say I
don't know.
This is not my area ofexpertise.
I trust you, but we're going tohave robust conversations about
(20:57):
this because I need to learn.
I don't need to know how to.
I don't need to personally runa daily review session although
it would be awesome if you didbut I need to know what they
look like and you're going to bemy conduit.
So stay humble.
Ask lots of questions, keepyour guard down, because you
(21:19):
said unsure, I often think it'sfear.
You know we're fear, and whenwe get fearful, I don't know,
I'm out of control.
I've got the system telling methis.
I've got teachers telling methat.
Then you're not going to makereally good decisions.
For the instructional leader, Igive you permission to ask your
boss to meet regularly for 15minutes a week.
(21:41):
Can we have a 15 minute checkin every week and I'm going to
feedback what I've been doingand you can ask me questions and
I can just know that, as theinstructional leader, I'm on
track.
Now.
I'm not saying that necessarilyhas to be with the principal,
whoever your most, who your linemanager is, but in order for
(22:01):
you to feel successful, you needto know what success is.
You know what they're, and alsoyou need to be sharing success,
sharing your challenges andletting them know what's coming
up for you.
You know.
So this is what I'm working onin the next fortnight.
This is how NAPLAN testing isgoing to impact my coaching in
(22:23):
classrooms.
So regular communication buildsrelationships, helps each other
understand each other's roleand gives you the support that
you need as the instructionalleader.
Jocelyn Seamer (22:36):
Yeah, beautiful, thank you.
And, as we said, whole podcastepisodes all by themselves.
Beautiful, thank you.
And, as we said, whole podcastepisodes all by themselves.
Some of the things that I thinkmake it difficult for us to
take action in the space ofclassroom practice is
conflicting advice and I'mcoming from a literacy
perspective now, because that'swhat this podcast is about and
(22:56):
so we hear from different peoplethat this bit is, this thing is
the best.
No, no, do it this way it's thebest.
Everyone's claiming an evidencebase.
Some of that's not true, someof it is, and when we don't have
as robust a knowledge base aswe would like, it's really hard
to figure out what to do.
So I guess this is less of aleadership question and more of
(23:18):
a.
Can you think back through youryears of education for me and
think about and you will haveseen this the things come and
they go, and some of them arefads and some of them are
actually really good,evidence-based things that we
didn't adopt.
How can leadership teamsnavigate the minefield of
(23:39):
conflicting advice and some ofthose clever marketing?
And again, I'm fully aware ofthe irony, everybody considering
the business that I run but howdo we distinguish between fads
and clever marketing, and whatis actually robust, sensible
advice in a way that means thatwe don't have to go and become a
(24:01):
university PhD candidate inorder to have that knowledge.
What does that look like?
Jenny (24:08):
That is, in fact, an excellent question.
I'm for those of you who arefamiliar my DISC style is I, so
I'm all about enthusiasm and newthings and shiny objects, and I
was that dreadful principalthat had a great idea one
morning and we're all going tochange things.
I would do things differentlynow.
However, my training wasactually in direct instruction,
(24:30):
and I remember when I ended upin primary schools for the first
time, you know, as a graduate,I entered into the middle of the
whole language sphere, whichwas fine, and I was trained as a
first-tips teacher, and then weall went to outcomes, but there
was this little bit in my heartthat absolutely knew that that
(24:52):
direct teaching of skills was soimportant, especially since I
was working with students withdisabilities and special
learning needs.
So there is something about it.
Really, I mean it should beabout data, but there is
something that says thisabsolutely ethically and morally
feels right to me.
(25:12):
I do not want anyone to takethat as good advice about how
you should decide what's worthteaching or not.
Try something.
Do not invest in the milliondollars teaching or not.
Try something.
Do not invest in the milliondollars worth of it.
Try it.
Do it in a sprint.
Is it making a difference?
Can we build it in rather thanbolt it on to what we've already
(25:32):
done?
Is it making a difference?
Does the data say people aregrowing, both the students and
the staff.
Are the staff feeling moreconfident and competent?
And if they are, they're goingto teach well.
And any intervention is a goodintervention if teachers want um
are engaged in it.
So the the teaching sprints, doit for a short amount of time.
(25:54):
Don't invest in the wholeprogram.
Have a trial, but if you're onyour fifth trial in five
semesters, then make a decisionbasically and and it is does
this suit us and our context,and is the data telling us it
does?
Jocelyn Seamer (26:10):
I have a yes and um.
So yes to everything jenny justsaid.
And back to that sensitive spot, the tightrope walking of what
we feel.
Uh, so many teachers who wereearly adopters into the
structured literacy space gotthere because they were
reflecting on the students withdifficulty in their class and
(26:30):
seeing that what was beingpromoted as the status quo thou
shalt always actually wasn'tmeeting their needs.
And the question was well, whatare we doing for those children
?
So I don't think we candiscount our bigger purpose in
teaching as a part of thedecision-making process and as a
(26:51):
part of the whole thing.
So how do we balance it?
Sometimes I'll say let's makesure that we are keeping an eye
on the research, as best weunderstand it, and we can be the
royal we, as in the profession,because things will grow and
learn and things will change.
Keep an eye on the data,because that's your evidence of
a job well done, as Jenny justsaid, and keep an eye on
(27:11):
well-being of you and thestudents.
And I think Jen and I have saidthe same things in two
different ways.
Whichever one of those worksbest for you today, as you're
listening, grab it, take hold ofit, take bits from both.
However it works.
So let's say that we havedecided on an approach, we've
adopted a program or a resourceand we're not treating that
(27:33):
program or resource as the endgoal.
It is a tool that we're usingto get great student outcomes.
There's often a gap between thewhat we do in training and what
we learn about, and I'm forpeople you can't see because
you're in the podcast.
Everyone air quotes, learn theintroduction about something we
have in PL, and then whathappens in the classroom.
(27:56):
Some of that is just a normalpart of a learning journey.
Some of it is people not doingwhat they need to.
Some of that, though it's notalways, I just don't want to.
Sometimes the won't is actuallyfear in disguise.
So how do we approach this, jen, from a perspective of assuming
(28:16):
positive intent in all of ourteam that they actually want to
do a good job.
I don't know anyone who gets upin the morning and says, oh, I
choose to do a bad job today.
How do we walk that linebetween assuming positive intent
but then also, for the rest ofour team and for our students,
holding people accountable?
How do we find, dare I say, thebalance in the support and the
(28:41):
accountability?
What mechanisms.
Have you seen work in schools?
Jenny (28:48):
To me, it comes down to coaching, and it's because
coaching takes us from knowingto doing and, in fact, to being
so.
Instead of just knowing aboutsomething and doing it, we
actually embed it in ourpractice, and you and I have
shared the research that Joyceand Showers did 20-odd years ago
(29:08):
, which sort of said if you justdo a professional learning,
you'll learn this much, and itwon't necessarily embed itself,
but if you get coached over time.
So coaching is accountability.
Now there is pure coaching,which is kind of the work that I
do, which is, you know, when Iwork with my veteran principals,
(29:28):
I don't say, what are you doingtomorrow?
And then what are you doing?
I understand that they knowwhat they're doing.
However, if we're trying a newstrategy, the role of the
instructional coach is to checkin regularly about how are you
going with this element, whatare you noticing?
Maybe doing some classroomobservations and then
(29:49):
co-constructing a rubric orsomething to make sure we're
looking at the same thing anddiscuss the data, and that is
helping people move fromtransition from one way of
teaching to another, and socoaching is absolutely essential
.
To me, it's the only thing thatworks.
(30:10):
You can't make people comply.
You can only make people.
You can make people comply, butwe want them to commit, we want
them to go full in and do itproperly, and coaching is the
method that I think works best.
However, if we don't properlytrain and support our coaches,
it's just another thing that wedo and that we spend money on.
Jocelyn Seamer (30:34):
Yes, and what happens to those coaches is the
school says we have a position,who do we have?
Okay, congratulations, you're acoach, you're a great teacher,
now go forth and make brilliance.
And we haven't got the trainingfor them.
So certainly part of the workthat both you and I do sits in
that space, in helping people bebetter leaders of all sorts,
(30:56):
including instructionally intheir schools.
How has the leadershiplandscape changed over the last,
let's say, 10 to 15 years sinceyou left school land and to now
?
What changes have you seen?
Let's go good, bad and ugly.
Jenny (31:17):
The requirements of senior leadership have, just as
teacher workload has increasedexponentially.
Principal workload hasincreased exponentially.
To be completely honest, in myearly days it was easy.
We did not much except floataround and sign the occasional
(31:39):
check.
These days we have one-linebudgets and we're you know
they're managing budgets ofmillions of dollars, and in any
other business you would have aHR department, you would have a
marketing department, you wouldhave a finance department, you
would have a CEO and you'd havepeople in charge of all of that.
In schools, principals are thatperson.
(32:02):
Plus, we've had an increase insocietal expectations about what
schools will and won't do, plusthe inclusion of kids with
special educational needs, whoadd an entire complexity.
Jocelyn Seamer (32:20):
It's not bad, it's just.
It just takes more work.
Jenny (32:22):
So that's how the landscape is changed, and more
money and people, Jenny, as well.
So I just want to be reallyclear this is of the podcast.
Jocelyn Seamer (32:26):
Jenny's not saying students in special needs
shouldn't be in schools.
That's her background.
What we both often talk aboutis the need for funding and
people and resourcing to supportthat appropriately.
Jenny (32:39):
That's where we head and those kids who are funded, they
will come with more money andmore people, and that's more
complexity.
And those kids who aren'tfunded don't come with more
money and don't come with morepeople and more people, and
that's more complexity.
And those kids who aren'tfunded don't come with more
money and don't come with morepeople, and that is also complex
.
So the complexity and thesystem requirements and the
accountability requirements arehuge on principals and you're
(33:01):
now seeing that in classrooms.
Jocelyn Seamer (33:03):
And what's better than it used to be from
when you were going intoleadership and what that
landscape looks like.
What have we gotten right?
What's better now than it usedto be?
Jenny (33:15):
So there was a period of time where they were considering
just putting managers, so themanagers of the water
corporation could just transferacross and be managers of
schools, because we were justmanaging, weren't we?
So what is better is that wenow know that leaders have to
know something aboutconstruction and be
instructional leaders, atwhatever level that might be.
(33:37):
So what is better is that weunderstand that schools are
places of learning, they're notjust things that we organise.
What is better?
Actually having a robustcurriculum, despite the fact
that it keeps changing.
There are now resources, systemresources in most places to
back up what teachers aresupposed to be doing, because it
(33:59):
was all a bit choose your ownadventure before then, which was
fun, but I'm not sure we taughtpeople.
I think kids learnt moreaccidentally in the old days.
The good kids learnt and theothers didn't, whereas now there
is more support, what's better.
I just think schools andteachers have always done really
(34:20):
good jobs and I tend to thinkwe're looking at.
I get really worried aboutpeople leaving the profession,
and I think some of it is due tothe noise in social media and
the media about how bad schoolsare.
And yes, they're hard and yes,they're difficult, but I still
(34:41):
think teaching is an excellentprofession and then 99% of
people in schools turn up forthe right reason and to do a
good job, and that hasn'tchanged.
Jocelyn Seamer (34:51):
You and I both get to hear from people every
day, in the work we do, who areso passionate about their
students and so excited by thegains that they make.
So my wish for us all is can wejust simplify and have a little
bit of common sense?
But there is no profession thatis free of complexity.
(35:12):
There is no job that doesn'thave bits in it that are tricky.
So let's adopt what theevidence says in a lot of cases,
which is keep it simple, don'ttry and do too much, one thing
at a time until we've got it,and then we move on.
And that can apply to all areasof school, whether it's
teaching students or developingas leaders as well.
(35:35):
Jen, I'd like to finish this offwith what teachers and leaders
can do.
So let's go instructionalleaders, aps or DPs, depending
on what they're called where youare.
So, seeing that one rung kindof below the principal, what can
we do to foster that sense ofexcitement and positivity with
(35:58):
and for our school communities?
Because, as you say, there's abig narrative out there all
about how devastatingly badeverything is.
I personally don't buy it.
Yep, it's tricky, but there'salso wonderful things.
How do we keep our team's buson the road in well-being and in
moving forward positivelytogether as a cohesive group of
(36:21):
people, all working for the onegoal.
Jenny (36:23):
Oh, such a good question.
I'm going to answer in multipleways and hopefully it meets the
brief I say when I'm workingwith my leaders.
Be, really, it goes back toyour thing about being simple.
All leaders, regardless ofwhere they are in the school,
should know the two things thatwe are going to put all our
(36:44):
effort into this year or in thisplanning period.
That should be really clear inyour business plan or your
strategic plan, whatever thatlooks like.
But these are the two or threethings that we are going to
devote time and effort to.
They're your hedgehog principles.
They're what Jim Collins, wouldyou know, say.
(37:05):
They're you're non-negotiables,they're your one thing.
And then you use every singleopportunity as a leader to talk
about, promote, reinforce thosethings.
So at every school assembly youstand up and say so.
Let's imagine, your one thingis one year of progress for each
kid every year.
It might be as broad as that,but it could be, as you know,
(37:29):
far more simple than that.
So you stand up at assembly andyou say we've been focusing
really hard on making sure everykid makes one year of progress
and here are the merit awardsfor year two, and these guys are
really making progress in theirspelling and everything gets
tied back to that one or twothings all the messages at
(37:49):
school, council meetings, atstaff meetings.
When you're out at the gate atthe beginning of the day saying
we are making such good progress, I'm loving the way you're
walking, that's exactly how wemake progress in this school.
And bringing all of themessages back to those key
things.
That keeps it simple.
Then people know what they'reaccountable for.
(38:11):
I think then the communityknows what's valuable, the staff
know what's valuable, the kidsknow in kid language and keeping
it nice and simple andstreamlined.
We need to get a balancebetween process and people.
We need to have really strongrelationships, but processes
(38:33):
keep us safe.
Processes when we're anxiousabout how we do something, we
like to go back to a flow chartor a map of some description and
that helps us feel less anxious.
So I'm not naturally a processperson, but I understand that if
I have a roadmap a flow chart,a business plan, something that
(38:57):
I can send people back to,meeting norms, very clear
agendas.
We need low variance routinesfor our staff as well as our
staff Indeed we do, debbie,indeed we do.
So if we get that balance right, we trust people to follow the
process.
Then that's what gives ussurety, that's what stops the
(39:21):
fear, and you want processesthat exist.
So listen to this,instructional leaders you want
to create something that existswhen you're gone.
So if you're the only expert,you're the only person who runs
the meeting, you're the onlyperson who makes the resources,
you're not empowering otherpeople.
The minute you leave, whateveryou're running disappears.
(39:42):
So, instructional leaders,deputies, whatever you are
creating processes that allowyou to remove yourself and that
will still continue when you'regone.
Jocelyn Seamer (39:54):
And how often have you?
And I said Jen, you fall to thelevel of your systems.
So if you have a major fluepidemic in the place you live
and you've got a third of yourstaff away, the systems you have
in place will hold you up.
If your school has been runningwell because of the individuals
(40:14):
involved but you don't have anydocumented systems and I'm not
talking about 150 page documenthere, we're just talking about a
one pager for this thing and aone pager for that thing if you
don't have those processesdocumented, when the people who
held up the school are not therefor some reason they could have
gone on year five, six, camp,something, whatever it is then
(40:36):
everything falls over and thenit's extra stressful.
So you fall to the level ofyour systems, everybody.
And when you've got them, asjen said, they, they hold you up
.
It also is I'm listening to you,jenny I'm thinking about a
phrase you've used with mebefore, which has been that we
operationalise our values.
So, coming back at, let's bringeverything back to that one
core value.
(40:57):
It's how we really live it, andthen the value becomes
transformational for the schoolrather than being a thing that's
on the poster that we go.
What was that again?
Jenny (41:08):
I say to people, what are your school values?
Oh, we've got four of them.
Yeah, great, what are they?
Or I say, what's your purpose,mission, vision?
And some people can sprout itbut then can't tell you what it
looks like on the ground.
And so it's never a waste oftime to say actually, what does
this look like If we're usingour values in our year one, two
(41:29):
phase of learning team?
What does that look like?
How are we talking to eachother, how are we acting and
interacting?
And then formalise that.
And I always say if it's a rulefor the kids, it's a rule for
the adults.
So I make my norms very muchlike student rules.
I say things like in this, thisteam, we arrive on time.
(41:50):
In this team, we make sureeveryone gets a turn.
In this team, we, rather thanwe, respect other people's
opinions.
Well, sometimes respect meansrobust conversations.
Sometimes respect means I donot agree with you conversations
(42:11):
.
Sometimes respect means I donot agree with you.
Um, so instead of big edu speak, I say just make them like
school rules in this meeting weor in this team, we, and just
make it nice and specific, andthat's operationalizing your
values and, as you said, then,bringing everything back to that
one hedgehog principle leadershave a a right of good to great
by Jim Collins, and that's thatone principle that underpins
everything.
Jocelyn Seamer (42:32):
Jenny, I think we could talk for another four
hours and still not even getclose to the range of topics
that we could be discussing.
So let's hold space to comeback together at another point
in the future.
But thank you so much for beingwith us.
I'd like to like for realfinish off now, because I said
we're finishing off before.
But one more thing Can youplease let everybody know about
(42:56):
launching into leadership, thecourse that you have coming up
and full disclosure everyone, Ido not receive a dollar If you
choose to join Jenny's program.
I'm sharing this with youbecause I know how
transformational it is to beproperly equipped as a leader to
do the role that we're doing.
So, jen, tell us a bit aboutLaunching Into Leadership and
(43:18):
where people can find out moreinformation about that program
and you more generally.
Jenny (43:23):
People can find me at Positively Beaming.
People can find me atPositively Beaming On Instagram.
It's Positively Beaming, jenny,but positivelybeaming.
com.
au.
And I'm just going to go back alittle bit and let people know
where Launching Into Leadershipcame from.
For many years, I ran the Womenin Leadership programs for both
(43:47):
the Department of Education andCatholic Education here in
Western Australia and Ideveloped.
It was a four-day program whenI ran it with them and we ran it
face-to-face for years.
And then that pandemic hit andwe put everything online.
And the first year we put itonline, I thought we're never
going to have the same feelingas getting 25 women
(44:11):
predominantly in the same room.
We're not going to walk awaywith that same.
Oh look, we're all in thistogether.
How brilliant, what a fabulouslearning environment.
However, we did when we ran itonline.
So I still run it face-to-faceas a two-day program.
So I still run it face-to-faceas a two-day program, but I've
spent the summer rejigginglaunching into leadership.
(44:32):
It's for new and inspiringleaders.
You go through eight modules atyour own pace and you get
support from me.
I pop in every now and again tomake sure that you're on track
and that you don't have anyquestions, and we look through
things such as a new model ofleadership, about what good
leaders have and are.
We look at your styles, we lookat your um uh, just some things
(44:58):
about the, the traps that newleaders fall into and some
strategies for getting out ofthem.
We've got a whole module onconfidence and that is going
live in May, so that's launchinginto leadership.
That's fully online these days.
There used to be an onlinecomponent, but these days I just
(45:20):
check in with the individualsas the program progresses, so I
would love you to join me.
It's available for purchase now, but we go live on the 1st of
May.
Jocelyn Seamer (45:34):
Wonderful.
So, jenny, you didn't telleveryone about your podcast,
which is called PositivelyLeading.
So if you loved what you heardhere today, check out Jenny's
podcast, positively Leading,where she interviews school
leaders and talks about the realworld of leadership in schools.
And, you know, always keepingit real it's a good thing, but
(45:56):
coming from a place of evidence,coming from a place of
experience, coming from a placeof having very credible
information and strategies toshare as well, it's been a
pleasure to have you on thepodcast.
Thank you so much.
I look forward to seeing younext time.
We meet Everybody else.
Until I see you in the nextepisode of the podcast.
(46:17):
Happy teaching, bye.
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