Episode Transcript
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Jocelyn (00:00):
Welcome back to the
Structured Literacy Podcast
recorded here in Tasmania on thelands of the Palawa people.
I'm Jocelyn and I am so pleasedthat you have joined me.
Whether you're a returninglistener or you've just found
us, you are in the right placefor evidence-informed
instruction, practicalconversations about bringing
literacy instruction to life inreal schools, and a discussion
(00:24):
of all of the things that wefind when we're working with
real students.
I'm recording this episode atthe start of term 4 2025.
It's the time of year whenleaders are making concrete
plans for next year andconsidering what the next steps
are in the school strategicimprovement agenda.
Part of this process is lookingback at the year that has been
(00:47):
and evaluating impact.
The impact we have on studentsis the most important factor we
consider when evaluating ourefforts.
And while we would all agreethat this is in fact the case,
it's an area that's really easyto be distracted from.
The truth of our profession isthat what we do is impacted by
(01:10):
the election cycle and the needfor politicians to be able to
report back on what they havedone in a given time period.
I'm not criticising politiciansfor this, it's just part of
what happens.
But it does keep our focus onthe visible, surface-level
short-term activities.
Departments and systems in turnuse surface-level metrics to
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evaluate and celebrateachievements because they're
under pressure from theminister.
So we end up with newspaperarticles that talk about how
many teachers have accessed aparticular website, completed
training modules, or how manyschools are now using "phonics".
And let's be real, just aboutevery school has always taught
phonics, so that measure is alittle bit of nonsense.
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The only metric that we shouldhave our eye on, the most
important one, is studentoutcomes.
That's the whole box and diceright there.
The other things, the training,the accessing materials, the
"doing" phonics are steps thatneed to be taken on the road to
the real goal.
And it's perfectly fine toreport on them as markers of the
(02:20):
journey.
However, we can't stop withthose markers.
We can't lose sight of the maingoal, which is universal
student achievement.
So this week's episode, and nextweek's, is all about the
critical, non-negotiable factorsof instruction that I have seen
in my work in schools and inthose schools whose results have
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been standouts in achievinghigh levels of success in
phonics instruction.
The reason that this is soimportant, and the reason that I
keep coming back to it isbecause if we don't have an
unwavering commitment tooutcomes, we will end up in five
years with the same sorts ofresults that we saw before
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structured literacy was widelyadopted.
We'll have most students doingok, but an ever-increasing
number of students not beingserved.
Before we dive in, I want to saythis.
If you are listening and you'reexhausted, if you're in a
school where the barriers feelinsurmountable, I want you to
know that I get it.
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And I have had my fair share oftimes wondering whether I was
completely delusional thinkingthat we could achieve the goals
that we'd set for ourselves.
This episode might feelchallenging.
Some of it may even feel alittle harsh.
I'm sharing it because Ibelieve in the work that we do
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in schools.
I believe in the capability ofour teachers and our students to
achieve the outcomes that we'relooking for.
And sometimes the kindest thingwe can do is be clear about
what it's going to take, evenwhen that's uncomfortable.
So thanks, Brene Brown, clearis indeed kind.
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If we're not clear on what thecritical factors are for
success, we can be working sohard and trying to walk uphill
when it actually doesn't have tobe that hard.
When we're using practicesbecause we think that they're
the best, we're using programsbecause other people have told
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us that that's theevidence-based one, and there
are elements of instruction thatare not meeting the needs of
our students, we're really justsetting ourselves and our kids
up to fail.
So, in sharing these thoughtswith you, my intention is not to
be critical.
It's to show you what thepathway forward can look like.
(04:53):
But you can't do everything allat once.
So, over this episode and thenext one, I'm sharing 10 points,
but you're going to choose oneof them at a time and work on
just one.
Make things manageable.
This is a long game we'replaying.
We don't have to get everythingdone by Christmas.
So, today's episode is part oneof a two-parter.
(05:16):
In this episode, I'm going toshare the first five of ten
critical factors that must be inplace if we're going to
engineer success for ourstudents.
And we'll cover six to ten inthe next episode.
Critical factor number one is toaccept and embrace our roles as
the engineers of studentsuccess.
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We must accept and embracethese roles.
If learning isn't happening anda child has a bottom on a seat
in our classroom and they arecognitively and physically able
to learn what they need tolearn, it's our responsibility
to craft the instruction to makesure that happens.
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Now, when things don't quite goright or we face challenges,
there are five natural stagesthat we can go through or five
points we can find ourselves at.
I've spoken about them beforeon the podcast.
They are number 1.
ignore, 2.
deny, 3.
blame others, 4.
assume responsibility, and 5.
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find solutions.
T he uncomfortable truth is thatin education, when learning
doesn't happen as we think itshould, we look outside
ourselves for someone orsomething else to blame.
This is nothing more than aninherently human response to
challenge, and it's a naturalpart of the learning process.
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We all do it.
It's not a character flaw, it'spart of being human.
However, we can't fall victimto our own biases, no matter how
natural they are.
We can't just run with them.
The most successful schools Iwork with, and the most
successful teachers I have ledin my own leadership work, are
those who acknowledge thebarriers but refuse to let those
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barriers define the outcomes.
The question isn't can we dothis?
The question is what is itgoing to take to make this
happen?
If the student has a bottom ona seat, we really should have
data that shows appropriategrowth for their learning
profile.
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Acknowledging that studentshave disabilities and
significant difficulties, thatmean that the pace at which they
learn new content may be slowerthan others and means that they
may need higher intensityinstruction is not an excuse.
That's the foundation ofinclusion.
But when we say that we can'thave great data because our
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students come from disadvantagedbackgrounds or have English as
an additional language or aredysregulated, we need to pause
and really examine thatthinking.
I know that systematic barriersare real.
Poverty is real, trauma isreal, high mobility is real,
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limited resourcing, that's realtoo.
I'm not dismissing any of that.
What I'm saying is that wecan't let those realities become
reasons to lower ourexpectations or stop problem
solving.
Our job is to work within andagainst those barriers, not to
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accept them as immovable.
And I'm not one of these peoplewho's never worked in a
challenging context and is justmaking wishful statements.
I taught in and led remoteschools in the Northern
Territory for 10 years and I gotresults.
My teams got results.
I'm not an expert in yourschool, but I do know that it
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can happen.
Our students are not defined bytheir circumstances, and we are
not powerless in the face ofthose circumstances.
We are the ones who have it inour control to do what needs to
be done to see real andappropriate growth for every
student.
The second factor of success ishaving a whatever it takes
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attitude.
Now, this is a big one becausewithout it, you simply won't see
the results you're looking for.
Schools where students thriveare willing to do what needs to
be done for the students.
Need to sit in the discomfortof realising that our results
aren't matching our effort?
We'll do it.
Need to change the timetable?
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We're on it.
Need to have the principal orhead of school take a phonics
group three times a week so thatwe can cover all the bases?
Consider it done.
Need the PE teacher to readwith kids for 15 minutes every
morning, who we know don't havean adult reading to them at
home?
Where do we sign up?
Need to change programs becausewe can now see from our growing
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knowledge that our existingprogram simply isn't fit for the
purpose of what we need it for?
We're in.
We need to be prepared to getworse at something before we get
better.
And we have to be up for thatchallenge.
Now I know some of you arehearing this and thinking,
Jocelyn, we are alreadystretched beyond breaking point.
(10:20):
And I hear you.
When I say whatever it takes,I'm not talking about individual
teachers working themselvesinto the ground.
I'm talking about whole schoolsystemic problem solving where
leadership protects time,redistributes resources, and
makes tough decisions about whatgets dropped so the essential
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work can happen.
We have to walk a careful linehere.
Change might be necessary, butit has to be well managed.
Demanding that everythingchange all at once or in quick
succession without proper time,coaching, and support, breaks
people, and will in the end beworse for student outcomes than
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if we did nothing.
So while the spirit of whateverit takes must be in evidence,
exhausting our team or pushingthem to the limits is not on the
table.
The third critical factor thatwe need to see if we are to have
universal outcomes is that Tier1 instruction must be designed
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to meet the needs of ourstudents with the leakiest
memories, the most difficultypaying attention, and the
highest need for carefulmanagement of the introduction
of new content.
We'll come back to that in amoment.
Designing instruction to meetthe needs of the most students
will only get us outcomes forsome of them.
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If we teach in a one size fitsmost way, if we choose content
based on the needs of themajority, we're guaranteeing
we're going to be leaving somestudents out.
We're also guaranteeing thatwhat we will be trying to do to
create cohesive, fluent, highlyimpactful lessons won't happen,
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because it's really hard to havea smooth lesson that feels
terrific, that goes at anappropriate pace, where we've
got the kids in the palm of ourhand and we're really nailing it
when we're moving too slowlyfor some and too quickly for
others.
Pacing, and getting the pacingright, really is about having
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students in front of us who arewithin a particular ballpark in
their learning.
In a text-based unit, we canteach whole class and adjust.
In a phonics lesson, wherecontent needs to be learned to
mastery before moving on, it's adifferent proposition.
I'm going to speak more to thisshortly, but for now I want to
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say that yes, we can plan forTier 2 support with additional
repetitions and we should be.
However, consider this, if theinitial instruction makes a mess
in the memory of the studentsbecause it's not what they need,
we will find ourselves alwaysspending more time and money on
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additional support than weshould, because it takes so much
longer to fix a mess in studentmemory than it does just for
them to learn it well in thefirst place.
You might have heard me talkabout the light switch scenario.
When you move into a new house,you need to turn the lights on.
If there are three or four, oreven two, switches on the panel,
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you press them one at a timeuntil you've turned the lights
on.
That's fine, it's the firstday, the goal was to have light,
well, success criteria areachieved.
We have light.
But tell me whether thisresonates with you.
It's five years later, and youstill aren't quite sure which
switch turns on which light.
Think about how long it wouldtake and how much intensity
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would be needed to get you to betruly automatic in choosing the
right switch where there is noconscious thought needed.
And now think about thestudents who you know are wobbly
on phoneme-graphemecorrespondences, even up until
you five, six, seven, and eight.
Wouldn't it have been so muchbetter to not make a light
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switch situation for thosestudents in the first place?
Critical factor number four isthat core instruction must focus
on each student's specificneeds.
A little while ago, Iinterviewed the fabulous
Stephanie Stollar and we spokeabout this, among other things.
There's a misconception thatTier 1 instruction is the same
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for everyone.
And the reality is that itmight not be.
The other person's work thatmakes so much sense in this
space is Nancy Young, a Canadianresearcher who created the
ladder of reading.
If you're a school leader andyou don't have that book in your
school resource, perhaps have alook at it, it was co-written
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with Jan Hasbrouck.
In including this point, I'mnot going off on a tangent of
opinion.
There are many researchers andacademics who support this view.
I'm going to read to you nowfrom a book called Writing and
Reading Connection, BridgingResearch and Practice.
I'm specifically reading froman article by Young-Suk Kim, an
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educational psychologist knownfor her research on the science
of reading.
She's senior associate dean andprofessor of education at the
University of California.
In the chapter, shewrites, "The first principle is that children differ in the rate at which they acquire word reading and spelling skills,
therefore, for maximallyeffective instruction, teachers
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need to identify their students'strengths and needs and provide
instruction that is tailored tothose needs, that is,
differentiated or individualisedinstruction." She goes on to
say, "This type of instructioninvolves assessment of students'
skills and using assessmentdata to make instructional
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decisions, such as groupingstudents by their strengths and
needs.
This practice is calleddata-based instructional
decision making."Now, in the old days, we
referred to streaming inAustralia, and in other
countries they talked abouttracking.
And here's what Kim has to sayabout that.
"It is important to recognisethat differentiated instruction
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is not tracking.
In tracking, students are notallowed to flexibly move into
and out of groups.
In differentiated instruction,students are grouped and
regrouped flexibly throughoutthe year depending on their
progress." This practice offlexibly grouping to meet the
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needs of a range of students isa core characteristic of schools
I've worked with and worked inwho have achieved really
terrific results for all oftheir students.
They don't make a mess ofstudent memory and learning in
the first place, so that whenthey provide Tier 2 additional
doses of instruction, it's atrue additional dose.
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It's not an attempt to untanglethe mess that's been created by
instruction that wasn't whatthe student needed.
The fifth factor from anoperational standpoint is that
schools who achieve universaloutcomes have one core phonics
routine that can pretty much fitonto a single piece of paper.
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There is no take this structureand make it your own.
There's no menu of options forteachers to choose from.
There's no just use the scopeand sequence and use whatever
instructional practices youlike, or each year level chooses
the program they like the best.
When it comes to buildingfoundational skills, it's one
in, all in.
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We all know about the positiveimpacts of low variance
instruction and havingpredictable routines.
So I don't think I have to gointo a lot of detail about that
here.
Basically, keep it simple, keepit consistent, and keep it
highly focused on just onething, not six.
I'm not talking about not beingresponsive to student needs.
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And work will be needed to bedone so that everyone knows what
the boundaries are in that.
But just as students can onlyfocus on one thing at a time,
well, teachers can only get goodat one thing at a time as well.
We grown ups need repetitionand practice just as the
students do.
(18:36):
So there you have it, the firstfive critical non-negotiable
factors of achieving universalsuccess in phonics instruction.
Let's do a quick recap of whatwe've covered today.
Factor one, accept and embraceour roles as the engineers of
student success.
We can't fall into the trap ofblaming circumstances when we
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have the power to problem solveand create change.
Factor two, adopt a whatever ittakes attitude.
But remember, this is aboutwhole school systemic problem
solving, not burning outindividuals.
Factor three, design Tier 1instruction for our students
with the highest needs, not forwhat most of the students might
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be okay with.
When we design for the mostvulnerable, we avoid creating
messes in memory that take yearsto untangle.
Factor four, focus coreinstruction on each student's
specific needs through flexibledatabase grouping.
This is not streaming ortracking.
It's responsive, differentiatedinstruction where students
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change groups based on wherethey're up to at a particular
time.
Factor five, maintain one corephonics routine across the
cohort.
So instruction might look alittle different, of course,
between the early years and 3-6,but the way a phonics lesson is
taught for initial instructionin early years should be
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consistent across all earlyyears classrooms.
Low variance instruction withpredictable routines means both
teachers and students can focuson learning, not navigating
different systems.
These first five factors arereally about mindset, our
systems, and our commitment todoing what it takes to serve
every student.
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They're the foundation thateverything else is built on.
And without these in place, theinstructional factors we'll
discuss in next week's episodewon't have the impact we need
them to.
I know that some of this couldfeel challenging.
And some people listening mightbe feeling energised and ready
to tackle the challenges thatcome.
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Others might be feelingoverwhelmed or perhaps a bit
confronted.
And that's ok.
It's all part of the learningprocess.
Take what resonates with youand what connects with the
conversations you're alreadyhaving with your team and start
thinking about which of thesefirst five factors you're
already doing well and whichones need attention.
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Next week, in part two of thisseries, we'll dive into factors
six through ten, which focusmore on the instructional
decisions and practices that wehave to put in place.
We'll talk about things likemanaging cognitive load and the
role of leadership.
Until then, I want you to sitwith these first five.
Maybe grab a coffee with acolleague and discuss where your
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school sits on each one.
Remember, awareness is thefirst step.
We can't improve what we don'tacknowledge needs improvement.
Thank you so much for listeningto this episode of the
Structured Literacy Podcast.
If something's resonated withyou in this episode, pop into
our Facebook group On theStructured Literacy Bus and
share your thoughts.
I'd love to hear from you.
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Until next time, happyteaching.
Bye.