November 29, 2025 • 17 mins
The difference between curiosity and commitment can make or break a literacy journey. We close our sixth season by drawing a clear line between being interested in structured literacy and being devoted to outcomes for every student, then map how teams can cross that line together. Along the way, we unpack five behaviour groups you’ll recognise in any staffroom, from early adopters to the special-case sceptics, and explain why labelling people as resistant often hides a deeper truth about capability and vulnerability.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jocelyn (02:32):
Hello there and welcome to the final episode of season
six of the Structured LiteracyPodcast.
I'm Jocelyn and I'm recordingtoday, as always, on the lands
of the Palawa people ofTasmania.
As we wrap up anotherincredible year of learning,
growing, and pushing theboundaries of literacy
instruction, I want to have aconversation about something
(02:55):
that's been percolating in mymind.
A conversation about thedifference between being
interested in something andbeing truly committed.
And there's a differencebetween these two things.
Being interested means that wehave a look, we're curious,
we're considering something,it's one of our options, but we
(03:17):
haven't yet committed.
Once we're committed tosomething, we are choosing one
thing and excluding all otherpossibilities.
Choosing to commit to everystudent learning literally means
there is no other acceptablepossibility but that every
(03:39):
student in our school islearning to their capability.
Outcomes for only some studentsis simply not on the table.
When we consider ourapproaches, there are four
levels of commitment and fourcategories of behavior that we
(03:59):
can fall into.
And I've heard it expressed inthis way, and I've thought about
it in terms of what this meansfor us in schools.
So group one people or groupone behaviors are actively
positive.
People who exhibit group onebehaviors will not rest until
(04:20):
they have worked out how toachieve their goal.
When these people encounter aproblem, they go into solutions
mode.
These people are most likely tobe the early adopters of
practices who will go down allof the rabbit holes in their
quest to get answers.
Now, in structured literacy,group one people were the
(04:42):
majority of people who attendedmy reading success in the early
primary years course in 2021.
They were so keen.
They had a thousand questionsand they would go away and try
things immediately and come backwith answers.
The energy was palpable.
Group two behaviors arepassively positive.
(05:03):
So when people exhibit grouptwo behaviors, they're
interested in the goal.
They say, sure, we'll we'll dowhat they've done, but they're
probably more likely to besatisfied with good results than
group one is.
Group one people aren'tsatisfied until they have
outstanding results.
Group two, they're ofteninterested in results and very
(05:24):
happy when they come, butthey'll kind of only do what's
needed up until a point.
They're just not driven to goall of the extra miles.
Then there's group threebehaviors.
Group three behaviors arepassively negative.
They say, okay, we'll try it,sure.
(05:44):
Group three is not part of theearly adopter club.
Action probably won't be takenuntil specific policies are
introduced and leaders putaccountability measures in
place.
Group three, yeah, they'regoing with the flow.
If it works, great.
If it doesn't, oh well,there'll be another thing.
And then we have group fourbehaviors.
Group four behaviors could besaid to be actively negative.
(06:08):
People exhibiting group fourbehaviors say, well, this isn't
going to work.
I don't really care what yousay.
This group isn't eveninterested in exploring the
possibilities of the changes.
They like how things are, orhow things aren't, and won't
lift too much of a finger tohelp results.
They might not actively get inthe way, but they're not exactly
(06:30):
rowing with the team.
We could say that surfacecompliance is the name of the
game here.
This group will do what'sabsolutely necessary and likely
no more.
But there's actually one moregroup.
It's not just four.
There's a fifth group.
This fifth group of behaviorscomes about when people are
(06:50):
completely convinced that theircircumstances, school or
students, are so special and sodifferent that what anyone is
saying about instruction simplydoesn't apply to them.
This group says, oh, yes, well,that sounds nice for those
people over there.
But if you met my students, oh,they need something completely
(07:14):
different.
And if you're thinking, geez,Jocelyn, this is a little bit
judgy, just stick with me.
Because if you've spent anytime with me in person or here
on the podcast, you'll know thatjudgy is not my normal default.
In sharing these fivecategories of behavior with you,
I'm actually not leaning intojudgment.
I'm describing what we all seearound us every day.
(07:37):
I'm sharing this with youbecause the category of behavior
a person or a school sits inright now isn't the limit of
their possibilities.
I've never actually met ateacher who doesn't deep down
want the best for students.
I've never met a teacher whowakes up and says, I don't care,
I'm getting paid.
(07:58):
I have all of the knowledge,skills, and experience to do
what's needed for those greatoutcomes, but I just don't care
enough to do it.
I've never met anyone likethat.
If you have, they shouldprobably go and get another job.
But it's a good idea tounderstand that once we do know
what to do to get outcomes, andI mean really know, we actually
(08:22):
can't do anything else.
So if we accept this premisethat every teacher and leader
wants the best for students, andthat if people could exhibit
group one behaviors, they would,what does that mean for us as
we wrap up a school year andhead into the next one?
As I've said, this episodeisn't about judgment.
(08:43):
It's about how we create theconditions for every member of
our team to be a group oneperformer so that every one of
our students is learningappropriately.
As system leaders, as schoolleadership, as teachers, as
colleagues, as friends, everyone of us has a responsibility
to our profession to set othersup for success.
(09:07):
That means that we lean intothe hard stuff.
When we know that other peoplehave our backs, we don't have to
be selfish.
We don't have to just look outfor number one.
There's so many reasons thatour team members or ourselves
might be exhibiting categorytwo, three, four, or five
behaviors.
If people aren't performing ina category one way, if they're
(09:30):
holding back, well, there's areason.
And don't misunderstand me, I'mnot making excuses for poor
performance.
Not engaging in your owndevelopment, fighting every
improvement agenda, bringingtoxic behavior into the
workplace and negativelyimpacting the team around you.
Well, all of that has zeroplace in our profession.
(09:51):
Each of us has a responsibilityto our colleagues and students
to move the conversation forwardand to invest in our own
development with our time,cognitive energy, and attention.
But something I've observed inmy 20 years in education and
almost 25 years in leadershipoverall is that very often won't
(10:15):
isn't actually won't.
It's can't in disguise.
So when we're deciding when toredirect someone or whether to
reprimand them, this is thedistinction we need to make.
Is it that this person has thecapability and they just don't
want to?
(10:35):
Or is it that they don't havethe capability right now and
they're feeling very vulnerable?
And I think more people sit inthat second category than the
first.
When people can't do something,when they are judging
themselves, when people arescared and vulnerable, that's
when we get those below the linebehaviors.
(10:57):
That's when we get badattitudes, that's when we get
foot stomping, sometimesliterally, that's when we get
the drama triangle, where wefind ourselves descending into
one of three roles (11:06):
the victim, the rescuer, or the persecutor.
And I'll link in the transcriptof the podcast to Jenny Cole's
site for an explanation ofthese.
Or you can just Google JennyCole Drama Triangle.
So if we want to be a group oneschool with a group one team
(11:26):
with group one behaviors, whatdoes that take?
What do we have to do to getthere?
Firstly, we need to never losesight of the fact that the goal
of our improvement effort isn'toptics.
The goal isn't that we are seento be doing explicit or
structured teaching.
(11:46):
The goal is that we're gettingresults and that we have
unshakable, reliable, valid datato show that every student is
learning to their fullpotential.
Secondly, we need to understandwhere our team is.
We have to know them, connectwith them, and make sure that
change isn't done to them, it'sdone with them.
And this includes having aculture where saying, well, that
(12:08):
didn't work.
Can you help me problem solveit?
Is the norm and where no onefeels they have to be perfect
all the time.
Our people aren't an obstacleto be bulldozed.
They are the key to greatoutcomes.
Third, we need this culture toposition the grown-ups as
learners as much as our studentsare.
Sure, we all say we'relearners, but our behavior and
(12:32):
our decisions might be telling adifferent story.
Fourth, we need systems, and Idon't mean our departmental
systems, although that's alwayshelpful, but we need systems
within our schools that supportour efforts, operationalise our
values, and keep us allaccountable to each other in
this journey to build a sharedvision.
(12:52):
This includes clear, concisedata and assessment plans, the
knowledge to understand thedata, and the commitment to
ongoing professional capabilitybuilding in how to respond to
what we see.
Programs are good and give usstructure, but the program alone
won't get us to group onebehavior.
If fidelity to a program is thegoal, well, my friends, that is
(13:18):
group two thinking.
Group one teams accept thatevery program has its strengths
and that we need programs thatreflect how we learn.
But when the learning doesn'thappen, they don't blame the
program.
They evaluate the strengths andopportunities, recognize when
their knowledge is incomplete,and then they keep going until
(13:39):
they have solved theirchallenge.
Now, all of this that I'msharing here recaps topics that
I've shared over the life ofthis podcast, which is now three
years old.
During that time, I've workedwith wonderful schools, I've
connected with teachers, admiredterrific data, and done more
than one happy dance.
I know that the outcomes we'reaiming for in our literacy
(14:01):
improvement journey aren't justpossible.
They are right there, waitingfor us to reach out and grab
them.
I'd like to finish this podcastyear off with the immortal
words of Dr.
Zeus.
Congratulations, today is yourday.
And keep listening.
Don't switch off because youthink you know the story.
(14:23):
You're off to great places,you're off and away.
You have brains in your head,you have feet in your shoes, you
can steer yourself anydirection you choose.
You're on your own and you knowwhat you know, and you are the
one who'll decide where to go.
All the places you'll go.
You'll be on your way up,you'll be seeing great sights,
(14:44):
you'll join the high flyers whosoar to height heights.
You won't lag behind becauseyou'll have the speed.
You'll pass the whole gang andyou'll soon take the lead.
Wherever you fly, you'll be thebest of the best.
Wherever you go, you will topall the rest.
Except when you don't, becausesometimes you won't.
(15:04):
I'm sorry to say so, but sadlyit's true that bang ups and
hang-ups can happen to you.
I'm afraid that sometimesyou'll play lonely games too.
Games you can't win, becauseyou'll play against you.
All alone, whether you like itor not, alone will be something
you'll be quite a lot.
And when you're alone, there'sa very good chance you'll meet
(15:28):
things that scare you right outof your pants.
There are some down the roadbetween hither and yon that can
scare you so much you won't wantto go on.
But on you will go, though theweather be foul, on you'll go,
though your enemies prowl, onyou will go, though the hacken
cracks howl, onward up many afrightening creak, though your
(15:50):
arms may get sore and yoursneakers may leak.
On and on you will hike, and Iknow you'll hike far and face up
to your problems, whatever theyare.
You'll get mixed up, of course,as you already know.
You'll get mixed up with manystrange birds as you go.
So be sure when you step, stepwith care and great tact.
(16:12):
And remember that teaching's agreat balancing act.
Just never forget to bedexterous and deft, and never
mix up your right foot with yourleft.
And will you succeed?
Yes, you will indeed.
Ninety-eight and three quarterpercent guaranteed.
Everyone, you'll movemountains.
(16:33):
So be your name Bucksbum orBixby or Bray or Mordecai Alley,
Van Allen O'Shea, you're off togreat places.
Today is your day.
Your mountain is waiting.
So get on your way.
And that wraps up season six ofthe Structured Literacy
Podcast, the place where weunpack all things literacy and
(16:54):
go beyond the programme to talkabout what it's really like to
get amazing outcomes for everystudent.
I hope that you have awonderful Christmas and new
year, and I'll see you next yearwith a brand new season of the
podcast.
Over the break, we'll bebringing you some of our most
popular episodes from the lastthree years to tide you over
(17:15):
until the new school year.
Before I sign off, I'd like togive a huge shout out to Vicky
and say an enormous thank youfor editing this podcast every
week.
There is simply nobody else whowould give every single episode
the care and attention that youdo, Vic.
I couldn't do it without you.
(17:35):
Until I see you all again nexttime, happy teaching.
unknown (17:39):
Bye.
Hello there and welcome to the final episode of season
six of the Structured LiteracyPodcast.
I'm Jocelyn and I'm recordingtoday, as always, on the lands
of the Palawa people ofTasmania.
As we wrap up anotherincredible year of learning,
growing, and pushing theboundaries of literacy
instruction, I want to have aconversation about something
(02:55):
that's been percolating in mymind.
A conversation about thedifference between being
interested in something andbeing truly committed.
And there's a differencebetween these two things.
Being interested means that wehave a look, we're curious,
we're considering something,it's one of our options, but we
(03:17):
haven't yet committed.
Once we're committed tosomething, we are choosing one
thing and excluding all otherpossibilities.
Choosing to commit to everystudent learning literally means
there is no other acceptablepossibility but that every
(03:39):
student in our school islearning to their capability.
Outcomes for only some studentsis simply not on the table.
When we consider ourapproaches, there are four
levels of commitment and fourcategories of behavior that we
(03:59):
can fall into.
And I've heard it expressed inthis way, and I've thought about
it in terms of what this meansfor us in schools.
So group one people or groupone behaviors are actively
positive.
People who exhibit group onebehaviors will not rest until
(04:20):
they have worked out how toachieve their goal.
When these people encounter aproblem, they go into solutions
mode.
These people are most likely tobe the early adopters of
practices who will go down allof the rabbit holes in their
quest to get answers.
Now, in structured literacy,group one people were the
(04:42):
majority of people who attendedmy reading success in the early
primary years course in 2021.
They were so keen.
They had a thousand questionsand they would go away and try
things immediately and come backwith answers.
The energy was palpable.
Group two behaviors arepassively positive.
(05:03):
So when people exhibit grouptwo behaviors, they're
interested in the goal.
They say, sure, we'll we'll dowhat they've done, but they're
probably more likely to besatisfied with good results than
group one is.
Group one people aren'tsatisfied until they have
outstanding results.
Group two, they're ofteninterested in results and very
(05:24):
happy when they come, butthey'll kind of only do what's
needed up until a point.
They're just not driven to goall of the extra miles.
Then there's group threebehaviors.
Group three behaviors arepassively negative.
They say, okay, we'll try it,sure.
(05:44):
Group three is not part of theearly adopter club.
Action probably won't be takenuntil specific policies are
introduced and leaders putaccountability measures in
place.
Group three, yeah, they'regoing with the flow.
If it works, great.
If it doesn't, oh well,there'll be another thing.
And then we have group fourbehaviors.
Group four behaviors could besaid to be actively negative.
(06:08):
People exhibiting group fourbehaviors say, well, this isn't
going to work.
I don't really care what yousay.
This group isn't eveninterested in exploring the
possibilities of the changes.
They like how things are, orhow things aren't, and won't
lift too much of a finger tohelp results.
They might not actively get inthe way, but they're not exactly
(06:30):
rowing with the team.
We could say that surfacecompliance is the name of the
game here.
This group will do what'sabsolutely necessary and likely
no more.
But there's actually one moregroup.
It's not just four.
There's a fifth group.
This fifth group of behaviorscomes about when people are
(06:50):
completely convinced that theircircumstances, school or
students, are so special and sodifferent that what anyone is
saying about instruction simplydoesn't apply to them.
This group says, oh, yes, well,that sounds nice for those
people over there.
But if you met my students, oh,they need something completely
(07:14):
different.
And if you're thinking, geez,Jocelyn, this is a little bit
judgy, just stick with me.
Because if you've spent anytime with me in person or here
on the podcast, you'll know thatjudgy is not my normal default.
In sharing these fivecategories of behavior with you,
I'm actually not leaning intojudgment.
I'm describing what we all seearound us every day.
(07:37):
I'm sharing this with youbecause the category of behavior
a person or a school sits inright now isn't the limit of
their possibilities.
I've never actually met ateacher who doesn't deep down
want the best for students.
I've never met a teacher whowakes up and says, I don't care,
I'm getting paid.
(07:58):
I have all of the knowledge,skills, and experience to do
what's needed for those greatoutcomes, but I just don't care
enough to do it.
I've never met anyone likethat.
If you have, they shouldprobably go and get another job.
But it's a good idea tounderstand that once we do know
what to do to get outcomes, andI mean really know, we actually
(08:22):
can't do anything else.
So if we accept this premisethat every teacher and leader
wants the best for students, andthat if people could exhibit
group one behaviors, they would,what does that mean for us as
we wrap up a school year andhead into the next one?
As I've said, this episodeisn't about judgment.
(08:43):
It's about how we create theconditions for every member of
our team to be a group oneperformer so that every one of
our students is learningappropriately.
As system leaders, as schoolleadership, as teachers, as
colleagues, as friends, everyone of us has a responsibility
to our profession to set othersup for success.
(09:07):
That means that we lean intothe hard stuff.
When we know that other peoplehave our backs, we don't have to
be selfish.
We don't have to just look outfor number one.
There's so many reasons thatour team members or ourselves
might be exhibiting categorytwo, three, four, or five
behaviors.
If people aren't performing ina category one way, if they're
(09:30):
holding back, well, there's areason.
And don't misunderstand me, I'mnot making excuses for poor
performance.
Not engaging in your owndevelopment, fighting every
improvement agenda, bringingtoxic behavior into the
workplace and negativelyimpacting the team around you.
Well, all of that has zeroplace in our profession.
(09:51):
Each of us has a responsibilityto our colleagues and students
to move the conversation forwardand to invest in our own
development with our time,cognitive energy, and attention.
But something I've observed inmy 20 years in education and
almost 25 years in leadershipoverall is that very often won't
(10:15):
isn't actually won't.
It's can't in disguise.
So when we're deciding when toredirect someone or whether to
reprimand them, this is thedistinction we need to make.
Is it that this person has thecapability and they just don't
want to?
(10:35):
Or is it that they don't havethe capability right now and
they're feeling very vulnerable?
And I think more people sit inthat second category than the
first.
When people can't do something,when they are judging
themselves, when people arescared and vulnerable, that's
when we get those below the linebehaviors.
(10:57):
That's when we get badattitudes, that's when we get
foot stomping, sometimesliterally, that's when we get
the drama triangle, where wefind ourselves descending into
one of three roles (11:06):
the victim, the rescuer, or the persecutor.
And I'll link in the transcriptof the podcast to Jenny Cole's
site for an explanation ofthese.
Or you can just Google JennyCole Drama Triangle.
So if we want to be a group oneschool with a group one team
(11:26):
with group one behaviors, whatdoes that take?
What do we have to do to getthere?
Firstly, we need to never losesight of the fact that the goal
of our improvement effort isn'toptics.
The goal isn't that we are seento be doing explicit or
structured teaching.
(11:46):
The goal is that we're gettingresults and that we have
unshakable, reliable, valid datato show that every student is
learning to their fullpotential.
Secondly, we need to understandwhere our team is.
We have to know them, connectwith them, and make sure that
change isn't done to them, it'sdone with them.
And this includes having aculture where saying, well, that
(12:08):
didn't work.
Can you help me problem solveit?
Is the norm and where no onefeels they have to be perfect
all the time.
Our people aren't an obstacleto be bulldozed.
They are the key to greatoutcomes.
Third, we need this culture toposition the grown-ups as
learners as much as our studentsare.
Sure, we all say we'relearners, but our behavior and
(12:32):
our decisions might be telling adifferent story.
Fourth, we need systems, and Idon't mean our departmental
systems, although that's alwayshelpful, but we need systems
within our schools that supportour efforts, operationalise our
values, and keep us allaccountable to each other in
this journey to build a sharedvision.
(12:52):
This includes clear, concisedata and assessment plans, the
knowledge to understand thedata, and the commitment to
ongoing professional capabilitybuilding in how to respond to
what we see.
Programs are good and give usstructure, but the program alone
won't get us to group onebehavior.
If fidelity to a program is thegoal, well, my friends, that is
(13:18):
group two thinking.
Group one teams accept thatevery program has its strengths
and that we need programs thatreflect how we learn.
But when the learning doesn'thappen, they don't blame the
program.
They evaluate the strengths andopportunities, recognize when
their knowledge is incomplete,and then they keep going until
(13:39):
they have solved theirchallenge.
Now, all of this that I'msharing here recaps topics that
I've shared over the life ofthis podcast, which is now three
years old.
During that time, I've workedwith wonderful schools, I've
connected with teachers, admiredterrific data, and done more
than one happy dance.
I know that the outcomes we'reaiming for in our literacy
(14:01):
improvement journey aren't justpossible.
They are right there, waitingfor us to reach out and grab
them.
I'd like to finish this podcastyear off with the immortal
words of Dr.
Zeus.
Congratulations, today is yourday.
And keep listening.
Don't switch off because youthink you know the story.
(14:23):
You're off to great places,you're off and away.
You have brains in your head,you have feet in your shoes, you
can steer yourself anydirection you choose.
You're on your own and you knowwhat you know, and you are the
one who'll decide where to go.
All the places you'll go.
You'll be on your way up,you'll be seeing great sights,
(14:44):
you'll join the high flyers whosoar to height heights.
You won't lag behind becauseyou'll have the speed.
You'll pass the whole gang andyou'll soon take the lead.
Wherever you fly, you'll be thebest of the best.
Wherever you go, you will topall the rest.
Except when you don't, becausesometimes you won't.
(15:04):
I'm sorry to say so, but sadlyit's true that bang ups and
hang-ups can happen to you.
I'm afraid that sometimesyou'll play lonely games too.
Games you can't win, becauseyou'll play against you.
All alone, whether you like itor not, alone will be something
you'll be quite a lot.
And when you're alone, there'sa very good chance you'll meet
(15:28):
things that scare you right outof your pants.
There are some down the roadbetween hither and yon that can
scare you so much you won't wantto go on.
But on you will go, though theweather be foul, on you'll go,
though your enemies prowl, onyou will go, though the hacken
cracks howl, onward up many afrightening creak, though your
(15:50):
arms may get sore and yoursneakers may leak.
On and on you will hike, and Iknow you'll hike far and face up
to your problems, whatever theyare.
You'll get mixed up, of course,as you already know.
You'll get mixed up with manystrange birds as you go.
So be sure when you step, stepwith care and great tact.
(16:12):
And remember that teaching's agreat balancing act.
Just never forget to bedexterous and deft, and never
mix up your right foot with yourleft.
And will you succeed?
Yes, you will indeed.
Ninety-eight and three quarterpercent guaranteed.
Everyone, you'll movemountains.
(16:33):
So be your name Bucksbum orBixby or Bray or Mordecai Alley,
Van Allen O'Shea, you're off togreat places.
Today is your day.
Your mountain is waiting.
So get on your way.
And that wraps up season six ofthe Structured Literacy
Podcast, the place where weunpack all things literacy and
(16:54):
go beyond the programme to talkabout what it's really like to
get amazing outcomes for everystudent.
I hope that you have awonderful Christmas and new
year, and I'll see you next yearwith a brand new season of the
podcast.
Over the break, we'll bebringing you some of our most
popular episodes from the lastthree years to tide you over
(17:15):
until the new school year.
Before I sign off, I'd like togive a huge shout out to Vicky
and say an enormous thank youfor editing this podcast every
week.
There is simply nobody else whowould give every single episode
the care and attention that youdo, Vic.
I couldn't do it without you.
(17:35):
Until I see you all again nexttime, happy teaching.
unknown (17:39):
Bye.
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.