July 5, 2025 • 16 mins
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jocelyn (00:00):
Hello there, welcome, welcome and a huge welcome to
you.
It's Jocelyn here with thisweek's episode of the Structured
Literacy Podcast, recorded inbeautiful Tasmania, the lands of
the Palawa people.
Today's episode is all aboutsomething that can make or break
the success of our structuredliteracy journey, and that's
(00:20):
making data your friend ratherthan your foe.
When I think about the changesin our profession over the last
10 years, it's clear that we areoperating in a different
landscape.
We haven't quite moved to adifferent planet, but in some
ways, literacy instruction hasundergone a tremendous
transformation.
Sight word programs, benchmarkassessments, group rotations and
(00:44):
leveled text for novice readersare increasingly being replaced
with explicit phonics, normedassessment and decodables.
We've done our teacher voicesurvey since 2021, and in 2021,
the number of teachers whoreported that they had a sight
word program taught as wholewords was 30%.
At the end of 2023, that numberwas 19.6%.
(01:07):
I'm so curious to know whatthat number is at the end of
this year, in 2025.
When asked about sendingpredictable texts home in the
first two years of school in2021, 62% said yes, that's what
their school did.
In 2023, that number was downto 36%.
Again, I cannot wait to seewhat the numbers are at the end
(01:31):
of this year.
So changes aren't new ineducation.
Whole language was once the newkid on the block and balanced
literacy in turn.
Success was measured byself-reported measures and
observation of compliance ofparticular practices.
But here's the thing thepresence of particular resources
and the rollout of pedagogicalpractices are not the same as
(01:54):
student outcomes in real terms.
They never have been and theynever will be.
If we're going to make sure thatstructured literacy doesn't
disappear in a pendulum swingand we're going to grow our
capacity in addressing studentneeds, we need to have data.
There's a huge differencebetween knowing what should be
(02:18):
included in instruction andgetting results from that, so
what we're going to do now isfocus on simple ways that we can
be data informed.
Data is necessary.
It's part of instruction, ithelps us to evaluate the
effectiveness of our work and itmakes decisions for future
(02:40):
instruction a lot more targetedand effective.
Data reliable data that isshifts our decision making from
being emotional to beingempirical.
How can we operate in a waythat's data informed without
ending up drowning in admin?
How do we keep things simplewhen the pace of change feels
(03:02):
like it's outstripped ourcapacity to cope, and how do we
use data as a vehicle forexercising professional judgment
rather than as a compliancedriven task.
The answer is to make it a partof how you do business, and in
today's episode I'm sharingsimple ways you can make it your
friend.
(03:23):
So, firstly, make sure that youknow the purpose of the
assessments you are using.
This prevents you from goingdown a path of action that
doesn't get you results.
Your norm screeners don't helpyou decide what next to teach.
The phonics inclusions in thenon-word fluency measures are
very different from the range ofcorrespondences we will teach
(03:45):
in our phonics lessons, and I'mseeing this confusion all the
time.
Teachers looking at a screeningtool like Dibbles and thinking
that, because it includesphonics elements, that they
don't have to do any otherphonics assessment and they can
use that Dibbles data to planthe next step in phonics
instruction.
But that's not what these toolsare designed for.
(04:06):
They're designed to identifystudents who might be at risk
and need additional support.
They're not designed to tellyou whether to teach AI or EE
next week.
Secondly, use a phonicsassessment that is aligned to
the scope and sequence of yourphonics program.
It's virtually impossible touse the data effectively if you
(04:29):
don't think about it.
Your phonics program teachesgraphemes in a particular order,
but your assessment toolpresents them in a completely
different sequence.
How are we supposed to makesense of what students know and
what they need to learn next?
Well, you can't.
High quality systematicsynthetic phonics programs come
(04:49):
with their own assessment tools,and if yours doesn't, you can
just make a simple one yourself.
The key is that the assessmentneeds to match what you're
teaching and in the order you'reteaching it.
Third, at the start of yourjourney, take the pressure off
yourself and recognize that yourfirst job is to fill gaps in
(05:11):
knowledge.
Only when we've done that canwe move forward.
So when we're transitioningfrom balanced literacy practices
to structured literacy or we'rechanging program, many of our
students will have gaps in theirphoneme grapheme correspondence
knowledge.
This could be because there'ssimply knowledge that they
(05:32):
haven't learned or that thescope and sequence documents
work in a different order.
So what one program may beexpecting you haven't actually
taught yet.
But don't feel pressure to racethrough new content when
students haven't yet masteredthe foundations.
I'm often working with schoolswhere teachers are feeling
(05:53):
anxious because the year twostudents don't know all of the
basic code correspondences yet,and that is a reason to really
put our foot on the pedal andget going.
But here's the thing if theydon't know the basic code,
jumping ahead to the complexcode isn't going to fix the
problem.
We have to fill the gaps firstand then move forward.
(06:15):
Fourth and this one might getme into a little bit of trouble,
but I'm okay with that If yourphonics program has a
prescriptive pacing guide, throwit out, not the program, just
the guide guide.
Throw it out, not the program,just the guide.
Guides should indicate optimalideal pacing.
But the decisions about whetheryou move on or not should be
(06:40):
about what you're seeing in yourstudent data.
You cannot be both responsiveto students and stick strictly
to the pacing guide.
You really need to choose thedata and know what your ideal at
least points are at thebeginning, middle and end of
every grade.
I know this can feel scary,especially for new teachers or
those new to structured literacy.
(07:01):
We want to get it right.
We want to make sure that we'reworking with fidelity.
But here's what I want you toremember the pacing guide was
written by someone who doesn'tknow your students.
They're not in the room.
They're not seeing the responseof the students in real time.
You're doing that If your datashows that students need more
(07:21):
time to consolidate learning,then give them that time.
Don't go too slowly, but givethem the space they need to
build to mastery.
If your data shows that they'reready to move faster, do that
instead, because if we're nothitting the mark on meeting
student need, we're going tohave children sitting in
classrooms wasting time becausethey're either not able to
(07:46):
engage with what they're doingbecause it's too far ahead, or
they already knew it and theyreally could be moving on.
Fifth is check in morefrequently.
Rather than waiting until theend of the term to evaluate the
impact of instruction, do itfortnightly through a simple
check-in.
Every week that passes withoutchecking on progress is another
(08:10):
week where gaps are probablyforming.
We have an episode about simplephonics assessment which we'll
link to on our website,justinsimaeducationcom, in the
show notes for this episode.
But basically, every two weeks,spend 10 minutes or five
minutes with each student doinga quick check of their
(08:30):
phonemograph and correspondences.
Note which are automatic, whichones are emerging and which
ones they just simply don't knowyet.
This doesn't need to be a superformal sit-down 50-minute
assessment per child.
Please don't try and do that.
It's not necessary and it's notworkable.
It can be done during a morningroutine transitions or while
other students are engaged inindependent work.
(08:51):
And please work with yourclassroom colleague.
If you have an assistant inyour room, please work with them
to get this work done.
You don't have to do it all onyour own.
Sixth, use personalized practiceto help students consolidate
the exact gaps or wobbles theyhave.
Resource room members haveaccess to printables on this and
(09:12):
a mastermind to explain how todo it.
Well, but you can create yourown simple practice materials.
Include your classroom supportstaff in putting them together.
They can look at an assessmentand identify gaps.
They can do that, no problem.
The beauty of personalisedpractice is that it's super
efficient.
We're not wasting students'time in spending a lot of time
(09:33):
reviewing things they alreadyknow while not providing enough
time on the things they needwith a greater intensity.
Finally, pay attention to thecorrespondences and irregular
high frequency words that arewobbly in your daily review.
Your best daily review isaligned with the exact needs of
(09:54):
your students.
Include both recognition andrecall To keep an eye on student
development.
Both of these are important.
So instead of just showing themthe grapheme and asking them to
say the phoneme, include recallDuring your daily review
sessions.
Notice which correspondencesstudents hesitate on which ones
(10:15):
they get wrong and which onesthey're confusing with others.
Make notes mentally or on paper, and revisit these in future
lessons.
I want to be really clear aboutsomething Implementing programs
and adopting new practices meansnothing if we do not measure
success and growth with timely,valid and reliable assessment.
(10:37):
This shouldn't sit outside ofus as an additional burden.
It needs to be a baked in partof what we do, because if we
cannot measure our impact, wecan't manage it.
We also can't ensure that we'reactually achieving the success
(10:57):
we're claiming we're going toachieve, because that is a huge
protective factor againstpendulum swings.
I do want to acknowledge,though, that data collection and
management can feeloverwhelming, especially when
you're already managingbehaviour, lesson planning,
communicating with parents andall of the other things that
come with teaching.
(11:18):
The key is to start simple andbuild capacity over time,
working as a team.
Choose one simple data point totrack consistently and it might
be that regular check-in in thephoneme grapheme correspondence
.
Pick one thing, get good atcollecting and using that data,
and then add more elements overtime.
The other thing I want toemphasize is that this data
(11:42):
should inform us as we use ourprofessional judgment.
The numbers tell us part of thestory, but not everything.
So we have to triangulate.
We have to connect data withour observation.
So a student might know alltheir phoneme graphing
correspondences on an assessmentbut still struggle to apply
(12:02):
them reading connected text,that observation is a valuable
one.
You don't have to sit yourfoundation students down for 50
minutes to discover that you canrecord that during your
observation.
That is also not about labelingstudents and putting kids in
the dumb group.
It's about understanding whereeach student is in their
(12:23):
learning journey so that we canmeet them there and move them
forward.
As we know, some students willmove quickly, others will need
more time and support.
Both of those scenarios areperfectly normal and both
deserve our best efforts.
I also want to talk about theemotional side of data.
(12:43):
It can be disheartening whenyou've been working so hard and
the data doesn't show the growthyou were hoping for.
But here's what I've learned inmy years of teaching and
working with schools If studentsaren't making the progress you
expected, the data is a gift offeedback.
Maybe the pace is too fast,maybe the pace is too slow.
(13:05):
Maybe there are gaps that wehaven't properly identified.
Maybe the instruction needs tobe more explicit or include more
practice.
Or maybe we haven't got ourgroupings right.
Maybe we're not teaching theright content to the right
students to enable them to fullyengage.
The goal isn't to have perfectdata or to have every student
(13:27):
progressing at the same rate.
That's a bit of a pipe dream.
The goal is to use have perfectdata or to have every student
progressing at the same rate.
That's a bit of a pipe dream.
The goal is to use data to makeinformed decisions about
instruction and to ensure thatevery student is learning and
growing at a rate that isambitious and yet realistic.
As we wrap up today's episode, Iwant to come back to my key
message.
We've made tremendous progressin moving towards evidence
(13:50):
informed literacy instruction,but the job is not nearly done
just because we have a programin place.
And when will the job be done?
The job will be done when everystudent in our schools is
successful.
If we're going to preventanother swing of the pendulum
that undoes the gains we've made, we need to make sure that our
(14:15):
practice is effective, and theonly way to know if practice is
effective is through regular,thoughtful use of data.
Remember, you don't have todrown in the data to be data
informed.
Start simple, be consistent andbe brave enough to make the
adjustments you need to whenthings are not working as you
(14:38):
want them.
To Make data your friend, notyour foe.
Until next time, happy teachingeveryone.
Bye.
Hello there, welcome, welcome and a huge welcome to
you.
It's Jocelyn here with thisweek's episode of the Structured
Literacy Podcast, recorded inbeautiful Tasmania, the lands of
the Palawa people.
Today's episode is all aboutsomething that can make or break
the success of our structuredliteracy journey, and that's
(00:20):
making data your friend ratherthan your foe.
When I think about the changesin our profession over the last
10 years, it's clear that we areoperating in a different
landscape.
We haven't quite moved to adifferent planet, but in some
ways, literacy instruction hasundergone a tremendous
transformation.
Sight word programs, benchmarkassessments, group rotations and
(00:44):
leveled text for novice readersare increasingly being replaced
with explicit phonics, normedassessment and decodables.
We've done our teacher voicesurvey since 2021, and in 2021,
the number of teachers whoreported that they had a sight
word program taught as wholewords was 30%.
At the end of 2023, that numberwas 19.6%.
(01:07):
I'm so curious to know whatthat number is at the end of
this year, in 2025.
When asked about sendingpredictable texts home in the
first two years of school in2021, 62% said yes, that's what
their school did.
In 2023, that number was downto 36%.
Again, I cannot wait to seewhat the numbers are at the end
(01:31):
of this year.
So changes aren't new ineducation.
Whole language was once the newkid on the block and balanced
literacy in turn.
Success was measured byself-reported measures and
observation of compliance ofparticular practices.
But here's the thing thepresence of particular resources
and the rollout of pedagogicalpractices are not the same as
(01:54):
student outcomes in real terms.
They never have been and theynever will be.
If we're going to make sure thatstructured literacy doesn't
disappear in a pendulum swingand we're going to grow our
capacity in addressing studentneeds, we need to have data.
There's a huge differencebetween knowing what should be
(02:18):
included in instruction andgetting results from that, so
what we're going to do now isfocus on simple ways that we can
be data informed.
Data is necessary.
It's part of instruction, ithelps us to evaluate the
effectiveness of our work and itmakes decisions for future
(02:40):
instruction a lot more targetedand effective.
Data reliable data that isshifts our decision making from
being emotional to beingempirical.
How can we operate in a waythat's data informed without
ending up drowning in admin?
How do we keep things simplewhen the pace of change feels
(03:02):
like it's outstripped ourcapacity to cope, and how do we
use data as a vehicle forexercising professional judgment
rather than as a compliancedriven task.
The answer is to make it a partof how you do business, and in
today's episode I'm sharingsimple ways you can make it your
friend.
(03:23):
So, firstly, make sure that youknow the purpose of the
assessments you are using.
This prevents you from goingdown a path of action that
doesn't get you results.
Your norm screeners don't helpyou decide what next to teach.
The phonics inclusions in thenon-word fluency measures are
very different from the range ofcorrespondences we will teach
(03:45):
in our phonics lessons, and I'mseeing this confusion all the
time.
Teachers looking at a screeningtool like Dibbles and thinking
that, because it includesphonics elements, that they
don't have to do any otherphonics assessment and they can
use that Dibbles data to planthe next step in phonics
instruction.
But that's not what these toolsare designed for.
(04:06):
They're designed to identifystudents who might be at risk
and need additional support.
They're not designed to tellyou whether to teach AI or EE
next week.
Secondly, use a phonicsassessment that is aligned to
the scope and sequence of yourphonics program.
It's virtually impossible touse the data effectively if you
(04:29):
don't think about it.
Your phonics program teachesgraphemes in a particular order,
but your assessment toolpresents them in a completely
different sequence.
How are we supposed to makesense of what students know and
what they need to learn next?
Well, you can't.
High quality systematicsynthetic phonics programs come
(04:49):
with their own assessment tools,and if yours doesn't, you can
just make a simple one yourself.
The key is that the assessmentneeds to match what you're
teaching and in the order you'reteaching it.
Third, at the start of yourjourney, take the pressure off
yourself and recognize that yourfirst job is to fill gaps in
(05:11):
knowledge.
Only when we've done that canwe move forward.
So when we're transitioningfrom balanced literacy practices
to structured literacy or we'rechanging program, many of our
students will have gaps in theirphoneme grapheme correspondence
knowledge.
This could be because there'ssimply knowledge that they
(05:32):
haven't learned or that thescope and sequence documents
work in a different order.
So what one program may beexpecting you haven't actually
taught yet.
But don't feel pressure to racethrough new content when
students haven't yet masteredthe foundations.
I'm often working with schoolswhere teachers are feeling
(05:53):
anxious because the year twostudents don't know all of the
basic code correspondences yet,and that is a reason to really
put our foot on the pedal andget going.
But here's the thing if theydon't know the basic code,
jumping ahead to the complexcode isn't going to fix the
problem.
We have to fill the gaps firstand then move forward.
(06:15):
Fourth and this one might getme into a little bit of trouble,
but I'm okay with that If yourphonics program has a
prescriptive pacing guide, throwit out, not the program, just
the guide guide.
Throw it out, not the program,just the guide.
Guides should indicate optimalideal pacing.
But the decisions about whetheryou move on or not should be
(06:40):
about what you're seeing in yourstudent data.
You cannot be both responsiveto students and stick strictly
to the pacing guide.
You really need to choose thedata and know what your ideal at
least points are at thebeginning, middle and end of
every grade.
I know this can feel scary,especially for new teachers or
those new to structured literacy.
(07:01):
We want to get it right.
We want to make sure that we'reworking with fidelity.
But here's what I want you toremember the pacing guide was
written by someone who doesn'tknow your students.
They're not in the room.
They're not seeing the responseof the students in real time.
You're doing that If your datashows that students need more
(07:21):
time to consolidate learning,then give them that time.
Don't go too slowly, but givethem the space they need to
build to mastery.
If your data shows that they'reready to move faster, do that
instead, because if we're nothitting the mark on meeting
student need, we're going tohave children sitting in
classrooms wasting time becausethey're either not able to
(07:46):
engage with what they're doingbecause it's too far ahead, or
they already knew it and theyreally could be moving on.
Fifth is check in morefrequently.
Rather than waiting until theend of the term to evaluate the
impact of instruction, do itfortnightly through a simple
check-in.
Every week that passes withoutchecking on progress is another
(08:10):
week where gaps are probablyforming.
We have an episode about simplephonics assessment which we'll
link to on our website,justinsimaeducationcom, in the
show notes for this episode.
But basically, every two weeks,spend 10 minutes or five
minutes with each student doinga quick check of their
(08:30):
phonemograph and correspondences.
Note which are automatic, whichones are emerging and which
ones they just simply don't knowyet.
This doesn't need to be a superformal sit-down 50-minute
assessment per child.
Please don't try and do that.
It's not necessary and it's notworkable.
It can be done during a morningroutine transitions or while
other students are engaged inindependent work.
(08:51):
And please work with yourclassroom colleague.
If you have an assistant inyour room, please work with them
to get this work done.
You don't have to do it all onyour own.
Sixth, use personalized practiceto help students consolidate
the exact gaps or wobbles theyhave.
Resource room members haveaccess to printables on this and
(09:12):
a mastermind to explain how todo it.
Well, but you can create yourown simple practice materials.
Include your classroom supportstaff in putting them together.
They can look at an assessmentand identify gaps.
They can do that, no problem.
The beauty of personalisedpractice is that it's super
efficient.
We're not wasting students'time in spending a lot of time
(09:33):
reviewing things they alreadyknow while not providing enough
time on the things they needwith a greater intensity.
Finally, pay attention to thecorrespondences and irregular
high frequency words that arewobbly in your daily review.
Your best daily review isaligned with the exact needs of
(09:54):
your students.
Include both recognition andrecall To keep an eye on student
development.
Both of these are important.
So instead of just showing themthe grapheme and asking them to
say the phoneme, include recallDuring your daily review
sessions.
Notice which correspondencesstudents hesitate on which ones
(10:15):
they get wrong and which onesthey're confusing with others.
Make notes mentally or on paper, and revisit these in future
lessons.
I want to be really clear aboutsomething Implementing programs
and adopting new practices meansnothing if we do not measure
success and growth with timely,valid and reliable assessment.
(10:37):
This shouldn't sit outside ofus as an additional burden.
It needs to be a baked in partof what we do, because if we
cannot measure our impact, wecan't manage it.
We also can't ensure that we'reactually achieving the success
(10:57):
we're claiming we're going toachieve, because that is a huge
protective factor againstpendulum swings.
I do want to acknowledge,though, that data collection and
management can feeloverwhelming, especially when
you're already managingbehaviour, lesson planning,
communicating with parents andall of the other things that
come with teaching.
(11:18):
The key is to start simple andbuild capacity over time,
working as a team.
Choose one simple data point totrack consistently and it might
be that regular check-in in thephoneme grapheme correspondence
.
Pick one thing, get good atcollecting and using that data,
and then add more elements overtime.
The other thing I want toemphasize is that this data
(11:42):
should inform us as we use ourprofessional judgment.
The numbers tell us part of thestory, but not everything.
So we have to triangulate.
We have to connect data withour observation.
So a student might know alltheir phoneme graphing
correspondences on an assessmentbut still struggle to apply
(12:02):
them reading connected text,that observation is a valuable
one.
You don't have to sit yourfoundation students down for 50
minutes to discover that you canrecord that during your
observation.
That is also not about labelingstudents and putting kids in
the dumb group.
It's about understanding whereeach student is in their
(12:23):
learning journey so that we canmeet them there and move them
forward.
As we know, some students willmove quickly, others will need
more time and support.
Both of those scenarios areperfectly normal and both
deserve our best efforts.
I also want to talk about theemotional side of data.
(12:43):
It can be disheartening whenyou've been working so hard and
the data doesn't show the growthyou were hoping for.
But here's what I've learned inmy years of teaching and
working with schools If studentsaren't making the progress you
expected, the data is a gift offeedback.
Maybe the pace is too fast,maybe the pace is too slow.
(13:05):
Maybe there are gaps that wehaven't properly identified.
Maybe the instruction needs tobe more explicit or include more
practice.
Or maybe we haven't got ourgroupings right.
Maybe we're not teaching theright content to the right
students to enable them to fullyengage.
The goal isn't to have perfectdata or to have every student
(13:27):
progressing at the same rate.
That's a bit of a pipe dream.
The goal is to use have perfectdata or to have every student
progressing at the same rate.
That's a bit of a pipe dream.
The goal is to use data to makeinformed decisions about
instruction and to ensure thatevery student is learning and
growing at a rate that isambitious and yet realistic.
As we wrap up today's episode, Iwant to come back to my key
message.
We've made tremendous progressin moving towards evidence
(13:50):
informed literacy instruction,but the job is not nearly done
just because we have a programin place.
And when will the job be done?
The job will be done when everystudent in our schools is
successful.
If we're going to preventanother swing of the pendulum
that undoes the gains we've made, we need to make sure that our
(14:15):
practice is effective, and theonly way to know if practice is
effective is through regular,thoughtful use of data.
Remember, you don't have todrown in the data to be data
informed.
Start simple, be consistent andbe brave enough to make the
adjustments you need to whenthings are not working as you
(14:38):
want them.
To Make data your friend, notyour foe.
Until next time, happy teachingeveryone.
Bye.
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