June 21, 2023 • 28 mins
Why do traditional churches struggle to connect with younger generations? Join me and special guest Cameron Crump as we discuss how the church can stay relevant to millennials and Gen Z, addressing issues like racial justice and the need for inclusive, life-focused teachings. We also explore the role of unconventional spaces in building community.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
How do you expect people to respect the church,
and they have been sodisrespected by the church.
At least Beyonce is doing whatthe church should be doing,
which is talking aboutliberation.
Church girl, be liberated, letit out, let it go for yourself.
And a lot of individuals didthat the night before they came
(00:22):
to lead praise and worship andthey killed praise and worship
and y'all were still up, handslifted, tears and snot sliding
down your face and they gave itto you because last night they
liberated themselves and theyhad their own church last night
and they're able to bring youinto something.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Thank you for stopping by the podcast.
I'm your host, slash driver, orshall I say conductor, because
today we're hopping on a soultrain calling all Holy Ghost
writers.
Today's guest feels as if thechurch, the modern day church,
is at a crossroads and could bein danger of falling off the
(01:05):
tracks.
Should be a good one, hop in,buckle up and let's go for a
ride.
Our guest today is none otherthan Mr Cameron Crump.
A couple of credentials hecomes with.
He is the founder and theexecutive director of
Unconventional Faith Community.
(01:26):
He is program manager at GlideMemorial and he's also the
creator and host of the newFaithCast Crossed Out.
I also see here, kim, thatyou've done some work with the
public health sector for 15years, addressing gender,
sexuality, racial equity andinclusion.
You also graduated from UCLAwith an emphasis on
(01:51):
African-American studies.
The list continues to go on andon.
You do some work with harmreduction.
You do some work with the BTAN,where you've presented some
research and some creativeprograms BT-Tan Bay Area, b-tan
Bay Area.
Yeah, you do some work withUnited States Conference
addressing AIDS.
Is that correct?
(02:12):
Hiv and AIDS.
Yes, you've done some writing,it looks like, with an LGBTQ
magazine, mused Mag Online.
Mused Mag Online.
So there's just so much tounpack here, and I'm just glad
you joined me on the show today,cam.
I appreciate it.
That was pretty extensive of aresume, and so I can't wait to
(02:33):
hear some of your thoughts onour topic.
What we're really going to tryand get to today is figuring out
ways that today's church can berelevant in a changing world.
Ever since the pandemic,there's been some lack of
participation, lack of interest.
Folks are more going to Sundaybrunch and having mimosas than
(02:55):
they are attending church, andthis has been a problem for the
past few decades.
Actually, it's been dwindlingquite a bit.
A couple of polls show that 47%of American adults are
affiliated with the church, butin 1940, 73% considered
themselves affiliated with thechurch.
One in five, or 21%, of peopleof color African-Americans
(03:19):
identify as atheists, 33% ofmillennials and 28% of
Generation Z identify asatheists.
The church is in a spot nowwhere people are not finding its
relevance and finding otherways of exploring spirituality.
Were you raised religious?
Were you raised spiritual?
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, as Sophia would say on the Golden Girls picture
it, I was born into theapostolic faith, which is a
holiness.
It's very strict.
My grandfather was the bishop,my father's a pastor, my mom's
an evangelist the whole family'sinvolved in church.
The church name was the UpperRoom Apostolic Church.
(04:01):
So, yeah, I grew up in a homewhere it wasn't separated like
church, and then home wasn'tseparated, it was very much all
blended together.
At nine years old mygrandmother on my mom's side
passed away.
So my grandfather, who was thebishop, moved in with us.
(04:22):
Okay, so that also made it evenmore religious right.
So definitely was born on thepew.
I came into this world 12 pm ona Sunday.
My mom placed the organ and shewent into labor.
So yes, I was, like the saying,born on a pew.
(04:43):
Yeah, so I was born on a Sunday.
That's funny.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
I know about those pews.
Yeah, I know about those pews.
I remember we didn't quite getpulled out to go to Sunday
school so we had to sit on thepews and sit through church and
my dad was a pastor himself andwe had a small storefront church
here in East Oakland, hole inthe wall.
Yeah, and we had a smallstorefront church here in East
Oakland, hole in the wall, yeah,okay, yeah.
So it was a family vibe and,long story short, the church had
(05:09):
to close.
So we went church shopping andwe went to different kind of
congregations.
We found one in Berkeley and Iplayed the drums in my dad's
church, okay, and I played inschool we're talking about like
second grade, third grade.
The drums were sitting there,nobody was playing it and they
had the choir up there.
It's about 200, 300 peoplecongregation and I'm sitting
there.
He just, I got to get on thosedrums but I'm not appointed, I'm
(05:31):
not called to be on drums atthis church, as one Sunday they
got the Holy Ghost party and Ijust I was like, forget it, and
I just went to the drums,started playing the drums.
Did you rip started playing thedrums and that memory sticks out
in my mind about just havingthat urge.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
That's wonderful because you had the urge,
because for us it wasn'tnecessarily a choice.
You know what I'm saying.
It was like oh, you're going toplay the drums, you're going to
sing and sing in the choir.
You're going to play the drums,you're going to be able to do
whatever you need to do Runtestimony service too.
We might need you all over theplace, and I think that was also
because where we went to church, my aunts, my uncles, my
(06:11):
cousins, my brothers, we allwere there you know what I'm
saying At the same church.
So it was like, yeah, yeah,yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
No, I was forced to do some things.
I remember my dad used to haveus preach and I don't remember
what I was preaching.
I was preaching the ABCs, whoknows.
But now that you shared aboutyour apostolic roots, what's
your journey now?
How has it changed over time?
Are you still a part of thattradition?
Speaker 1 (06:38):
No, there are some things that I hold for myself.
There came a time where I hadto develop my own spirituality,
just in reflection.
There was a time I just feltlike I wasn't being loved as
much as they preach love.
(06:59):
I remember one particular time.
I was 14 years old and it wassummertime, so I was at home and
during that time my grandfatherhad a caretaker.
I could tell she probably feltthe energy of me Right, and so
she asked my dad one day.
They were in the kitchen and Iwas on the other side of the
kitchen wall.
(07:19):
She had asked my father whatwould you do if one of your sons
were gay?
I'm the youngest of three boysand he was like I don't know
what I would do.
I would either try to kill themor kill myself.
That, to me, was a turningpoint in my life where I was
like, oh my gosh, if my dadthinks this, then God must think
this, because I know Godthrough my dad.
I look up to my dad.
So I had certain experiencesduring that time that pushed me
(07:46):
away from the church.
I always say to people yourfaith follows behind you.
It doesn't stay there.
It follows behind you becauseit's yours, it belongs to you.
It was about me owning my faith.
This belongs to me.
It's not about otherindividuals' opinions.
I need to go and develop thisfor myself.
(08:08):
Moving to Oakland 15, 16 yearsago, that's when I started to
develop my faith and started togroom it on my own and of course
, there were ups and downsmountain highs, valley lows, of
course and it just took time forme to own that.
I still hold to some things.
(08:28):
I always hold to my grandfathersaying take the meat, leave the
bones.
I don't hold to things like menshouldn't have long hair, which
is why I grew out my hair.
We couldn't wear shorts, theladies couldn't wear makeup,
they couldn't cut their hair,they had to wear skirts.
There were so many differentrules, regulations around living
(08:52):
life and how you show up inthat space that was more
important than developing yourfaith, and so a lot of those
things I don't.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Your faith stayed.
You didn't turn your back onfaith or reject God.
Do you think most people takethat approach, or do they become
?
Speaker 1 (09:20):
atheists was one of those individuals that were from
13 all the way up to 18, likepraying get this out of me.
All these other things At thesame time.
I still kept going.
Even once I was like this is agift, this is, cameron.
(09:43):
Getting to that space helped megrow more and lean more into my
faith.
Some people choose to say youknow what, I ain't fooling with
that.
And then there's some that arelike I'm not fooling with you,
you individuals over there.
So I think it's just differentfor everybody and I don't think
there's a right or wrong way.
It's just about what makes youhappy, what makes you navigate
(10:07):
life where you're fully happy.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
You mentioned some valleys and some mountains.
Can you tell me what were someof those mountains or valleys in
that process of trying to takeownership of your faith?
Loneliness.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Okay, having to take time to look internally and
process life and process life.
Also, learning how to valuewhen things are hard and tough
and you don't have people toreach out to because a lot of
people don't want to beassociated with you.
(10:45):
They're worried about whatother people may think if they
are associated with you orhelping you out, those channels
are closed.
So it taught me how to beresourceful, and that's one of
the things I'm very passionateabout.
When it comes to faith andjustice, people need resources
and you have to separate the two.
It's not about what you thinkand how they should do things.
(11:09):
Be a resource.
It's okay to help people out.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I want to connect all of that to faith and the role
of the church and being a safespace.
As I mentioned at the top ofthe show, a lot of millennials,
generation Zers, are going tothe church of Netflix and chill
are going to the gospel ofTikTok.
I'm just using some buzzwords.
But that connection with thechurch according to a lot of
(11:33):
Gallup polls, a lot of data issuggesting that it's not like it
was for our parents and for us.
Yeah, the ones after us arejust not showing up.
I'm interested in knowing whatdo you think are some factors
that may be contributing to thisdecline?
Speaker 1 (11:48):
We're tired of fear-based theology.
We're over it.
We want to come to a spacewhere we leave feeling empowered
.
We don't want to hear a sermonas to how hot the hellfire is
going to be and why it's goingto be hot or why we're going
there.
What do we need to do to keepfrom going there?
No, we want to talk about now.
(12:09):
We don't want to talk aboutwhen Jesus come.
We want to talk about whatwe're dealing with now.
We're dealing with having tonavigate the world in our black
bodies.
We're having to deal withinjustice from police officers
that were signed to protect usRight, but they're not
(12:32):
protecting us.
We want to talk about thosethings.
We want to leave empowered.
We want to live in peace.
We want to live happy.
We want to get our money up andget to the bag.
We want to talk about how canwe do those things, and I think
the church should be doing thosethings right.
I think we're tired offear-based theology.
We're tired of living in silos.
(12:53):
A lot of churches are likedon't go to clubs, don't go to
parties, don't do these things,live your life this way, and
we're over that.
One of the things that I seekto do as a faith community is.
I seek to work with club ownersand individuals that curate day
parties and put these events on, because those individuals
(13:17):
curate a space for us to havecommunity.
So why would I keep people fromtrying to go to clubs and go to
day parties and having anotherform of church?
I would say let's buy sometickets, let's make sure we
support whoever's putting thison and actually have community.
The church can be like oh, be insilos, don't do that, don't let
(13:38):
anybody catch you over there.
You know what I'm saying.
And it's late, it's and by lateit's old.
You know what I'm saying?
Retire that, that theology,that way of thinking.
It's just old.
We want wings on our backs now.
We want to address why ishousing so high?
We want to address putting aroof over our head.
(13:59):
How can we maintain?
These are things we want totalk about the now.
If you have your CME saints,your Christmas, mother's Day,
easter saints that just come onthose special days, a lot of
times they come to a sermonabout what happened on the cross
and the nails.
These things are good to hear,but we're experiencing certain
(14:22):
things right now that we want tobe empowered to move past.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
So the voices that are being heard need to change
their tone.
They're not addressing some ofthe racial injustice, some of
the white supremacy issues, someof the oppressive issues that
are happening.
So you're saying that wholetheology would have to change in
order to draw and luremillennials and Generation Zers
back in.
You also mentioned somethingabout being more goal oriented,
(14:51):
that we want to get to the back.
Now you feel as if the churchis not making that connection.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Let's take, for example, when I stopped going to
the church and I moved toOakland and I got those Sundays,
oh my goodness, I was likeSundays it's like the best day,
because I grew up feeling likeSunday was another work day,
right, because we would startservice at 10 and we'll be in
church till two, three o'clockand then have to be back at
(15:18):
seven.
Then getting these Sundays andgetting older and then starting
to go to brunch making sure mylaundry was done, I'm like, oh
my goodness.
This is why I'm probably crankyon Mondays, because it was like
a work day on Sunday.
Other people have rested.
They got their week going, theygot prepared for their week,
(15:38):
but I spent time, hours, inchurch and never took time to
rest and just prioritizeself-care.
And so a lot of people are likeI want to prioritize myself, I
want to prioritize self-care, Iwant to talk about my finances
and because the cost of livingis so high, we spend a lot of
(15:59):
hours working, trying to getmoney and then also trying to do
things for ourselves, startbusinesses.
Faith does play a role in thatand the church can be a pillar
in that.
But we're talking about so manyother things and not life
things.
Now we're talking about heaven.
We're talking about when Jesuscomes.
We're talking about so manyother things and not life things
.
Now we're talking about heaven,we're talking about when Jesus
come, we're talking about allthose other things, but where
(16:19):
are we in the conversation ofself-care?
How do you want your life tolook like now?
While you're here?
What are you doing when you'regrieving or you experienced
trauma?
Those type of conversations Ithink we can have, but a lot of
people don't like to haveconversations that are outside
of the Bible.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
I would definitely think that the Bible can be made
relevant.
Theology can be made superpractical.
My prayer every day is prettymuch make it practical, make it
plain.
Yeah, let's listen to a littleclip that I think ties into what
we're talking about here.
It's from Lizzo.
She's going to describe thereason why she thinks twerking
(17:00):
needs to be something we need totake ownership of and not let
it be appropriated, and I'lltell you why I brought it into
our conversation in a sec.
So let's take a listen to this.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
I want you to know where twerking came from.
I think everyone should knowwhere everything comes from.
You should know where your foodand water come from.
You should know where yourclothes come from.
It's important to me to keepthe origin story of twerking
alive.
So here's some far on the tablefor that ass.
(17:32):
Modern-day twerking derived fromblack people and black culture.
It has a direct parallel toWest African dances like Mapuka.
Traditionally, Mapuka was adance for West African women to
be used as a celebration of joy,religious worship, or a dance
to do at a wedding to show youwere DTF or DTM.
Down to Mary.
Down to Mary, Get your mind outthe gutter.
(17:53):
Down to Mary, Down to Mary, Getyour mind out the gutter.
Black women carried thesedances across the transatlantic
slave trade to the ring shout inwhat became the Black American
Church and to the hips of MaRainey and Bessie Smith when
they sang the blues into thebounce of Josephine Baker's
banana dance.
From jazz dance to jitterbug,from shake your tail feather to
shake your thang, to that ththat thing thingin'.
(18:13):
Black people carried theorigins of this dance through
our DNA, through our blood,through our bones.
We made twerking the globalcultural phenomenon it has
become today.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
I chose to include that clip from Lizzo because
she's talking about how toembrace the way that
spirituality is expressedthrough dance.
Yeah, and twerking is tend tobe thought of as more of a
freaky sexual thing to be done,but she mentions that the
origins of it started withAfrican roots and has a lot to
(18:47):
do with celebration and tiesinto manifestations of worship
in church.
What are your thoughts on that?
How important is it for us tounderstand the origins of a lot
of things that we do in ourculture and connect that to
faith?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
There's a lot of things we hear are negative or
sexualized, but historicallythey're rich.
This book that I really like iscalled Queer Magic.
They talk about individualsthat were gender fluid and how
they can recognize them andraise them separately from their
(19:18):
tribe in sub-Sahara Africabecause they were deemed as gems
.
They would raise them up acertain way.
They would have individuals goto them for counseling and go to
them for spiritual needs.
But now when you talk genderfluidity in faith spaces, oh no,
you gotta be this way a certainway and they have their
opinions on it.
And it's scary too, because ifwe're not taking the time to do
(19:43):
our own research for ourselvesand we just keep prioritizing
these opinions, then we continueto perpetuate the stigma.
I like that she spoke up andgave some history and some
background.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
That probably opened a lot of individuals' eyes and
having a well-rounded social,historical, cultural
understanding of the Biblethat's going to open up a
liberating move for faithcongregations so that they're
not continuing to preach theirpet doctrines or their pet
theologies.
(20:17):
To that end, we have anotherbishop who came for your girl,
beyonce.
I love Beyonce she got herselfin some hot water.
She grew up in the church.
Yes, she did, and I loveBeyonce.
I think she knew what she wasdoing when she made that song,
church Girl.
It's my jam.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Is that your jam?
I like that song.
It's not my favorite song onthe newest record, but I love
that song yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
We're going to talk about why you like it in a
second, but this preacher didnot like it.
Let's hear what he has to say.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Pray to God that a stiff denunciation of what she
did with that song is put out itshows that we're not speaking
(21:11):
up.
Don't nobody respect the church.
The world don't respect thechurch, so you can't win the
world enamored by them.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Oh, man Got some amens on that one, yeah what are
your thoughts there?
Speaker 1 (21:32):
First of all, I would like to know how do you know
about the song, sir?
He got his ear to the street,he got his ear to the street.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
He said prior to that soundbite.
He said that he wanted to playit for the congregation, but
then, after listening to it, hecould barely get through the
song.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
I'm sure he got through that song and a few
other songs, so true huh.
First of all, it is aliberating song and she sampled
the Clark sisters.
The Clark sisters didn't have aproblem with it.
For him to say the worlddoesn't respect the church, how
do you expect people to respectthe church and they have been so
(22:17):
disrespected by the church?
At least Beyonce is doing whatthe church should be doing,
which is talking aboutliberation.
Church girl, be liberated, letit out, let it go for yourself.
And a lot of individuals didthat the night before they came
to lead praise and worship andthey killed praise and worship
and y'all were still up, handslifted, tears and snot sliding
(22:41):
down your face and they gave itto you because last night they
liberated themselves and theyhad their own church last night
and they're able to bring youinto something.
It's just a waste of time.
The time that he spent talkingabout one track on that album is
time he could have spentempowering someone to go out
(23:03):
afterwards and be their bestself.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
So are you more concerned about the content of
what he said or about the factthat he wasted the
congregation's time when hecould be speaking a liberating
word?
Both, oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
I think it's both Okay.
What's wrong with it?
You can't control what peopledo, so why do you have to make
it about being a respect ordisrespect thing towards the
church?
I don't think a lot of peoplelisten to that song and
sexualize it.
People listen to that song andbe like man, let it out.
Oh, I've been going throughthis.
(23:39):
I don't have people I couldtalk to.
I've been raising child.
Let me liberate myself.
It could have definitely beendiscussed and brought to that
space in a different way if youwanted to bring it to that space
in a different way if youwanted to bring it to that space
.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
So the church letting its hair down a bit so that it
can be of greater impact onpeople's lives and connect with
people's lives.
That's what I'm gathering here,but then there are those, I'm
sure, that would argue I wasreading the book of Ezekiel this
morning that the church hassomehow played the harlot to
some degree.
And that is going to be thedebate here is you've got your
(24:17):
holiness church, but then you'vegot those who are on the other
end which is open spaces,inclusive spaces.
I can hear people listening tothis podcast mad on one end,
joyful on the other and you'redoing a great job of trying to
bridge those two together.
Your mission statement part ofit says you want to help folks
explore faith in ways that boostmind, body and soul in a
(24:39):
non-traditional way.
It sounds like you're trying toexplore spiritual practices
that go beyond traditionalreligious practice.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
So what might some of those?
Speaker 1 (24:49):
practices include.
One is community outside offour walls.
Okay, one of the practices Ilike to do is partnering with
individuals that curate thesespaces.
For individuals to cometogether, that's a big deal.
I encourage individuals to goout and be in community with
people and be outside of thesetraditional walls that we
(25:09):
usually come to and gather andthen also trying to bridge the
gap with health and wellness.
There are times that we cancome together as community doing
yoga and listening to certainmusic.
We can gather as a communityand go hiking.
There's ecotherapy, whereindividuals go to a land of the
Ohlone tribe.
(25:29):
Those are spiritual moments.
Those are the things that wewant.
You know what I'm saying?
That's what we're looking for.
We're not looking for people totalk about track number four on
Beyonce's album.
We want to be empowered.
We want to leave a space orleave a moment, feeling
motivated, feeling inspired.
That's church to me.
That's church to me.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
These non-traditional ways, the eco one, that sounds
interesting.
These things need to happen.
Churches need to be moreholistic.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Is what you're saying those church moments outside of
church, day parties,communities and yoga moments
they're all tools.
There's so many other toolsthat we can use than being in a
space where, again, we're usingfear-based theology.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
This conversation opened up a can of worms, but
also I think it tore down somebarriers, and it is certainly
one that needs to be had.
We're going to close on thisnote.
We've said a lot of things thatmay speak not necessarily
negatively, but critical of thechurch.
Yeah, there's been some numberswe've thrown out there that
talk about the waningparticipation levels in the
(26:35):
church.
But, on a positive note,particularly when we talk about
the African-American church, alot of believers and a lot of
millennials now, because peopleare saying, hey, there is a
(26:58):
social justice message embeddedin the Bible, they're turning to
the black church to bring thatout.
I have a quote here.
It says black emerginggenerations still have faith in
the core of the black church.
Because of this, authenticityand inclusion are both necessary
.
Don't make the assumption thatyou're winning young souls to
(27:19):
Christ.
Instead, show emerginggenerations what followers of a
risen Christ looks like in themidst of the turmoil that exists
today.
Nice.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Yeah, beautiful.
I'll forever be willing to goto a church and I'll be on the
front row.
You know what I'm saying.
But I also am in the spacewhere I know how to, as my
grandfather, bishop lewin, wouldsay, take the meat and leave
the bones.
And so it's good to be agatekeeper for yourself or a
filter for yourself.
(27:52):
Nice, do what's going toempower you, wow.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Man, I'm going to leave on that note.
I love what you just said Be agatekeeper for yourself.
That's a good one.
Thanks for listening.
If you enjoyed this episode andyou'd like to help support the
podcast, please share it withothers, post about it on social
(28:16):
media or leave a rating andreview.
To catch all the latest from me, you can follow me on Instagram
at Stuber underscore podcast.
Thanks again and until nexttime.
Keep your head up and eyes onthe roof.
How do you expect people to respect the church,
and they have been sodisrespected by the church.
At least Beyonce is doing whatthe church should be doing,
which is talking aboutliberation.
Church girl, be liberated, letit out, let it go for yourself.
And a lot of individuals didthat the night before they came
(00:22):
to lead praise and worship andthey killed praise and worship
and y'all were still up, handslifted, tears and snot sliding
down your face and they gave itto you because last night they
liberated themselves and theyhad their own church last night
and they're able to bring youinto something.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Thank you for stopping by the podcast.
I'm your host, slash driver, orshall I say conductor, because
today we're hopping on a soultrain calling all Holy Ghost
writers.
Today's guest feels as if thechurch, the modern day church,
is at a crossroads and could bein danger of falling off the
(01:05):
tracks.
Should be a good one, hop in,buckle up and let's go for a
ride.
Our guest today is none otherthan Mr Cameron Crump.
A couple of credentials hecomes with.
He is the founder and theexecutive director of
Unconventional Faith Community.
(01:26):
He is program manager at GlideMemorial and he's also the
creator and host of the newFaithCast Crossed Out.
I also see here, kim, thatyou've done some work with the
public health sector for 15years, addressing gender,
sexuality, racial equity andinclusion.
You also graduated from UCLAwith an emphasis on
(01:51):
African-American studies.
The list continues to go on andon.
You do some work with harmreduction.
You do some work with the BTAN,where you've presented some
research and some creativeprograms BT-Tan Bay Area, b-tan
Bay Area.
Yeah, you do some work withUnited States Conference
addressing AIDS.
Is that correct?
(02:12):
Hiv and AIDS.
Yes, you've done some writing,it looks like, with an LGBTQ
magazine, mused Mag Online.
Mused Mag Online.
So there's just so much tounpack here, and I'm just glad
you joined me on the show today,cam.
I appreciate it.
That was pretty extensive of aresume, and so I can't wait to
(02:33):
hear some of your thoughts onour topic.
What we're really going to tryand get to today is figuring out
ways that today's church can berelevant in a changing world.
Ever since the pandemic,there's been some lack of
participation, lack of interest.
Folks are more going to Sundaybrunch and having mimosas than
(02:55):
they are attending church, andthis has been a problem for the
past few decades.
Actually, it's been dwindlingquite a bit.
A couple of polls show that 47%of American adults are
affiliated with the church, butin 1940, 73% considered
themselves affiliated with thechurch.
One in five, or 21%, of peopleof color African-Americans
(03:19):
identify as atheists, 33% ofmillennials and 28% of
Generation Z identify asatheists.
The church is in a spot nowwhere people are not finding its
relevance and finding otherways of exploring spirituality.
Were you raised religious?
Were you raised spiritual?
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, as Sophia would say on the Golden Girls picture
it, I was born into theapostolic faith, which is a
holiness.
It's very strict.
My grandfather was the bishop,my father's a pastor, my mom's
an evangelist the whole family'sinvolved in church.
The church name was the UpperRoom Apostolic Church.
(04:01):
So, yeah, I grew up in a homewhere it wasn't separated like
church, and then home wasn'tseparated, it was very much all
blended together.
At nine years old mygrandmother on my mom's side
passed away.
So my grandfather, who was thebishop, moved in with us.
(04:22):
Okay, so that also made it evenmore religious right.
So definitely was born on thepew.
I came into this world 12 pm ona Sunday.
My mom placed the organ and shewent into labor.
So yes, I was, like the saying,born on a pew.
(04:43):
Yeah, so I was born on a Sunday.
That's funny.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
I know about those pews.
Yeah, I know about those pews.
I remember we didn't quite getpulled out to go to Sunday
school so we had to sit on thepews and sit through church and
my dad was a pastor himself andwe had a small storefront church
here in East Oakland, hole inthe wall.
Yeah, and we had a smallstorefront church here in East
Oakland, hole in the wall, yeah,okay, yeah.
So it was a family vibe and,long story short, the church had
(05:09):
to close.
So we went church shopping andwe went to different kind of
congregations.
We found one in Berkeley and Iplayed the drums in my dad's
church, okay, and I played inschool we're talking about like
second grade, third grade.
The drums were sitting there,nobody was playing it and they
had the choir up there.
It's about 200, 300 peoplecongregation and I'm sitting
there.
He just, I got to get on thosedrums but I'm not appointed, I'm
(05:31):
not called to be on drums atthis church, as one Sunday they
got the Holy Ghost party and Ijust I was like, forget it, and
I just went to the drums,started playing the drums.
Did you rip started playing thedrums and that memory sticks out
in my mind about just havingthat urge.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
That's wonderful because you had the urge,
because for us it wasn'tnecessarily a choice.
You know what I'm saying.
It was like oh, you're going toplay the drums, you're going to
sing and sing in the choir.
You're going to play the drums,you're going to be able to do
whatever you need to do Runtestimony service too.
We might need you all over theplace, and I think that was also
because where we went to church, my aunts, my uncles, my
(06:11):
cousins, my brothers, we allwere there you know what I'm
saying At the same church.
So it was like, yeah, yeah,yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
No, I was forced to do some things.
I remember my dad used to haveus preach and I don't remember
what I was preaching.
I was preaching the ABCs, whoknows.
But now that you shared aboutyour apostolic roots, what's
your journey now?
How has it changed over time?
Are you still a part of thattradition?
Speaker 1 (06:38):
No, there are some things that I hold for myself.
There came a time where I hadto develop my own spirituality,
just in reflection.
There was a time I just feltlike I wasn't being loved as
much as they preach love.
(06:59):
I remember one particular time.
I was 14 years old and it wassummertime, so I was at home and
during that time my grandfatherhad a caretaker.
I could tell she probably feltthe energy of me Right, and so
she asked my dad one day.
They were in the kitchen and Iwas on the other side of the
kitchen wall.
(07:19):
She had asked my father whatwould you do if one of your sons
were gay?
I'm the youngest of three boysand he was like I don't know
what I would do.
I would either try to kill themor kill myself.
That, to me, was a turningpoint in my life where I was
like, oh my gosh, if my dadthinks this, then God must think
this, because I know Godthrough my dad.
I look up to my dad.
So I had certain experiencesduring that time that pushed me
(07:46):
away from the church.
I always say to people yourfaith follows behind you.
It doesn't stay there.
It follows behind you becauseit's yours, it belongs to you.
It was about me owning my faith.
This belongs to me.
It's not about otherindividuals' opinions.
I need to go and develop thisfor myself.
(08:08):
Moving to Oakland 15, 16 yearsago, that's when I started to
develop my faith and started togroom it on my own and of course
, there were ups and downsmountain highs, valley lows, of
course and it just took time forme to own that.
I still hold to some things.
(08:28):
I always hold to my grandfathersaying take the meat, leave the
bones.
I don't hold to things like menshouldn't have long hair, which
is why I grew out my hair.
We couldn't wear shorts, theladies couldn't wear makeup,
they couldn't cut their hair,they had to wear skirts.
There were so many differentrules, regulations around living
(08:52):
life and how you show up inthat space that was more
important than developing yourfaith, and so a lot of those
things I don't.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Your faith stayed.
You didn't turn your back onfaith or reject God.
Do you think most people takethat approach, or do they become
?
Speaker 1 (09:20):
atheists was one of those individuals that were from
13 all the way up to 18, likepraying get this out of me.
All these other things At thesame time.
I still kept going.
Even once I was like this is agift, this is, cameron.
(09:43):
Getting to that space helped megrow more and lean more into my
faith.
Some people choose to say youknow what, I ain't fooling with
that.
And then there's some that arelike I'm not fooling with you,
you individuals over there.
So I think it's just differentfor everybody and I don't think
there's a right or wrong way.
It's just about what makes youhappy, what makes you navigate
(10:07):
life where you're fully happy.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
You mentioned some valleys and some mountains.
Can you tell me what were someof those mountains or valleys in
that process of trying to takeownership of your faith?
Loneliness.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Okay, having to take time to look internally and
process life and process life.
Also, learning how to valuewhen things are hard and tough
and you don't have people toreach out to because a lot of
people don't want to beassociated with you.
(10:45):
They're worried about whatother people may think if they
are associated with you orhelping you out, those channels
are closed.
So it taught me how to beresourceful, and that's one of
the things I'm very passionateabout.
When it comes to faith andjustice, people need resources
and you have to separate the two.
It's not about what you thinkand how they should do things.
(11:09):
Be a resource.
It's okay to help people out.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I want to connect all of that to faith and the role
of the church and being a safespace.
As I mentioned at the top ofthe show, a lot of millennials,
generation Zers, are going tothe church of Netflix and chill
are going to the gospel ofTikTok.
I'm just using some buzzwords.
But that connection with thechurch according to a lot of
(11:33):
Gallup polls, a lot of data issuggesting that it's not like it
was for our parents and for us.
Yeah, the ones after us arejust not showing up.
I'm interested in knowing whatdo you think are some factors
that may be contributing to thisdecline?
Speaker 1 (11:48):
We're tired of fear-based theology.
We're over it.
We want to come to a spacewhere we leave feeling empowered
.
We don't want to hear a sermonas to how hot the hellfire is
going to be and why it's goingto be hot or why we're going
there.
What do we need to do to keepfrom going there?
No, we want to talk about now.
(12:09):
We don't want to talk aboutwhen Jesus come.
We want to talk about whatwe're dealing with now.
We're dealing with having tonavigate the world in our black
bodies.
We're having to deal withinjustice from police officers
that were signed to protect usRight, but they're not
(12:32):
protecting us.
We want to talk about thosethings.
We want to leave empowered.
We want to live in peace.
We want to live happy.
We want to get our money up andget to the bag.
We want to talk about how canwe do those things, and I think
the church should be doing thosethings right.
I think we're tired offear-based theology.
We're tired of living in silos.
(12:53):
A lot of churches are likedon't go to clubs, don't go to
parties, don't do these things,live your life this way, and
we're over that.
One of the things that I seekto do as a faith community is.
I seek to work with club ownersand individuals that curate day
parties and put these events on, because those individuals
(13:17):
curate a space for us to havecommunity.
So why would I keep people fromtrying to go to clubs and go to
day parties and having anotherform of church?
I would say let's buy sometickets, let's make sure we
support whoever's putting thison and actually have community.
The church can be like oh, be insilos, don't do that, don't let
(13:38):
anybody catch you over there.
You know what I'm saying.
And it's late, it's and by lateit's old.
You know what I'm saying?
Retire that, that theology,that way of thinking.
It's just old.
We want wings on our backs now.
We want to address why ishousing so high?
We want to address putting aroof over our head.
(13:59):
How can we maintain?
These are things we want totalk about the now.
If you have your CME saints,your Christmas, mother's Day,
easter saints that just come onthose special days, a lot of
times they come to a sermonabout what happened on the cross
and the nails.
These things are good to hear,but we're experiencing certain
(14:22):
things right now that we want tobe empowered to move past.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
So the voices that are being heard need to change
their tone.
They're not addressing some ofthe racial injustice, some of
the white supremacy issues, someof the oppressive issues that
are happening.
So you're saying that wholetheology would have to change in
order to draw and luremillennials and Generation Zers
back in.
You also mentioned somethingabout being more goal oriented,
(14:51):
that we want to get to the back.
Now you feel as if the churchis not making that connection.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Let's take, for example, when I stopped going to
the church and I moved toOakland and I got those Sundays,
oh my goodness, I was likeSundays it's like the best day,
because I grew up feeling likeSunday was another work day,
right, because we would startservice at 10 and we'll be in
church till two, three o'clockand then have to be back at
(15:18):
seven.
Then getting these Sundays andgetting older and then starting
to go to brunch making sure mylaundry was done, I'm like, oh
my goodness.
This is why I'm probably crankyon Mondays, because it was like
a work day on Sunday.
Other people have rested.
They got their week going, theygot prepared for their week,
(15:38):
but I spent time, hours, inchurch and never took time to
rest and just prioritizeself-care.
And so a lot of people are likeI want to prioritize myself, I
want to prioritize self-care, Iwant to talk about my finances
and because the cost of livingis so high, we spend a lot of
(15:59):
hours working, trying to getmoney and then also trying to do
things for ourselves, startbusinesses.
Faith does play a role in thatand the church can be a pillar
in that.
But we're talking about so manyother things and not life
things.
Now we're talking about heaven.
We're talking about when Jesuscomes.
We're talking about so manyother things and not life things
.
Now we're talking about heaven,we're talking about when Jesus
come, we're talking about allthose other things, but where
(16:19):
are we in the conversation ofself-care?
How do you want your life tolook like now?
While you're here?
What are you doing when you'regrieving or you experienced
trauma?
Those type of conversations Ithink we can have, but a lot of
people don't like to haveconversations that are outside
of the Bible.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
I would definitely think that the Bible can be made
relevant.
Theology can be made superpractical.
My prayer every day is prettymuch make it practical, make it
plain.
Yeah, let's listen to a littleclip that I think ties into what
we're talking about here.
It's from Lizzo.
She's going to describe thereason why she thinks twerking
(17:00):
needs to be something we need totake ownership of and not let
it be appropriated, and I'lltell you why I brought it into
our conversation in a sec.
So let's take a listen to this.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
I want you to know where twerking came from.
I think everyone should knowwhere everything comes from.
You should know where your foodand water come from.
You should know where yourclothes come from.
It's important to me to keepthe origin story of twerking
alive.
So here's some far on the tablefor that ass.
(17:32):
Modern-day twerking derived fromblack people and black culture.
It has a direct parallel toWest African dances like Mapuka.
Traditionally, Mapuka was adance for West African women to
be used as a celebration of joy,religious worship, or a dance
to do at a wedding to show youwere DTF or DTM.
Down to Mary.
Down to Mary, Get your mind outthe gutter.
(17:53):
Down to Mary, Down to Mary, Getyour mind out the gutter.
Black women carried thesedances across the transatlantic
slave trade to the ring shout inwhat became the Black American
Church and to the hips of MaRainey and Bessie Smith when
they sang the blues into thebounce of Josephine Baker's
banana dance.
From jazz dance to jitterbug,from shake your tail feather to
shake your thang, to that ththat thing thingin'.
(18:13):
Black people carried theorigins of this dance through
our DNA, through our blood,through our bones.
We made twerking the globalcultural phenomenon it has
become today.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
I chose to include that clip from Lizzo because
she's talking about how toembrace the way that
spirituality is expressedthrough dance.
Yeah, and twerking is tend tobe thought of as more of a
freaky sexual thing to be done,but she mentions that the
origins of it started withAfrican roots and has a lot to
(18:47):
do with celebration and tiesinto manifestations of worship
in church.
What are your thoughts on that?
How important is it for us tounderstand the origins of a lot
of things that we do in ourculture and connect that to
faith?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
There's a lot of things we hear are negative or
sexualized, but historicallythey're rich.
This book that I really like iscalled Queer Magic.
They talk about individualsthat were gender fluid and how
they can recognize them andraise them separately from their
(19:18):
tribe in sub-Sahara Africabecause they were deemed as gems
.
They would raise them up acertain way.
They would have individuals goto them for counseling and go to
them for spiritual needs.
But now when you talk genderfluidity in faith spaces, oh no,
you gotta be this way a certainway and they have their
opinions on it.
And it's scary too, because ifwe're not taking the time to do
(19:43):
our own research for ourselvesand we just keep prioritizing
these opinions, then we continueto perpetuate the stigma.
I like that she spoke up andgave some history and some
background.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
That probably opened a lot of individuals' eyes and
having a well-rounded social,historical, cultural
understanding of the Biblethat's going to open up a
liberating move for faithcongregations so that they're
not continuing to preach theirpet doctrines or their pet
theologies.
(20:17):
To that end, we have anotherbishop who came for your girl,
beyonce.
I love Beyonce she got herselfin some hot water.
She grew up in the church.
Yes, she did, and I loveBeyonce.
I think she knew what she wasdoing when she made that song,
church Girl.
It's my jam.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Is that your jam?
I like that song.
It's not my favorite song onthe newest record, but I love
that song yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
We're going to talk about why you like it in a
second, but this preacher didnot like it.
Let's hear what he has to say.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Pray to God that a stiff denunciation of what she
did with that song is put out itshows that we're not speaking
(21:11):
up.
Don't nobody respect the church.
The world don't respect thechurch, so you can't win the
world enamored by them.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Oh, man Got some amens on that one, yeah what are
your thoughts there?
Speaker 1 (21:32):
First of all, I would like to know how do you know
about the song, sir?
He got his ear to the street,he got his ear to the street.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
He said prior to that soundbite.
He said that he wanted to playit for the congregation, but
then, after listening to it, hecould barely get through the
song.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
I'm sure he got through that song and a few
other songs, so true huh.
First of all, it is aliberating song and she sampled
the Clark sisters.
The Clark sisters didn't have aproblem with it.
For him to say the worlddoesn't respect the church, how
do you expect people to respectthe church and they have been so
(22:17):
disrespected by the church?
At least Beyonce is doing whatthe church should be doing,
which is talking aboutliberation.
Church girl, be liberated, letit out, let it go for yourself.
And a lot of individuals didthat the night before they came
to lead praise and worship andthey killed praise and worship
and y'all were still up, handslifted, tears and snot sliding
(22:41):
down your face and they gave itto you because last night they
liberated themselves and theyhad their own church last night
and they're able to bring youinto something.
It's just a waste of time.
The time that he spent talkingabout one track on that album is
time he could have spentempowering someone to go out
(23:03):
afterwards and be their bestself.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
So are you more concerned about the content of
what he said or about the factthat he wasted the
congregation's time when hecould be speaking a liberating
word?
Both, oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
I think it's both Okay.
What's wrong with it?
You can't control what peopledo, so why do you have to make
it about being a respect ordisrespect thing towards the
church?
I don't think a lot of peoplelisten to that song and
sexualize it.
People listen to that song andbe like man, let it out.
Oh, I've been going throughthis.
(23:39):
I don't have people I couldtalk to.
I've been raising child.
Let me liberate myself.
It could have definitely beendiscussed and brought to that
space in a different way if youwanted to bring it to that space
in a different way if youwanted to bring it to that space
.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
So the church letting its hair down a bit so that it
can be of greater impact onpeople's lives and connect with
people's lives.
That's what I'm gathering here,but then there are those, I'm
sure, that would argue I wasreading the book of Ezekiel this
morning that the church hassomehow played the harlot to
some degree.
And that is going to be thedebate here is you've got your
(24:17):
holiness church, but then you'vegot those who are on the other
end which is open spaces,inclusive spaces.
I can hear people listening tothis podcast mad on one end,
joyful on the other and you'redoing a great job of trying to
bridge those two together.
Your mission statement part ofit says you want to help folks
explore faith in ways that boostmind, body and soul in a
(24:39):
non-traditional way.
It sounds like you're trying toexplore spiritual practices
that go beyond traditionalreligious practice.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
So what might some of those?
Speaker 1 (24:49):
practices include.
One is community outside offour walls.
Okay, one of the practices Ilike to do is partnering with
individuals that curate thesespaces.
For individuals to cometogether, that's a big deal.
I encourage individuals to goout and be in community with
people and be outside of thesetraditional walls that we
(25:09):
usually come to and gather andthen also trying to bridge the
gap with health and wellness.
There are times that we cancome together as community doing
yoga and listening to certainmusic.
We can gather as a communityand go hiking.
There's ecotherapy, whereindividuals go to a land of the
Ohlone tribe.
(25:29):
Those are spiritual moments.
Those are the things that wewant.
You know what I'm saying?
That's what we're looking for.
We're not looking for people totalk about track number four on
Beyonce's album.
We want to be empowered.
We want to leave a space orleave a moment, feeling
motivated, feeling inspired.
That's church to me.
That's church to me.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
These non-traditional ways, the eco one, that sounds
interesting.
These things need to happen.
Churches need to be moreholistic.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Is what you're saying those church moments outside of
church, day parties,communities and yoga moments
they're all tools.
There's so many other toolsthat we can use than being in a
space where, again, we're usingfear-based theology.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
This conversation opened up a can of worms, but
also I think it tore down somebarriers, and it is certainly
one that needs to be had.
We're going to close on thisnote.
We've said a lot of things thatmay speak not necessarily
negatively, but critical of thechurch.
Yeah, there's been some numberswe've thrown out there that
talk about the waningparticipation levels in the
(26:35):
church.
But, on a positive note,particularly when we talk about
the African-American church, alot of believers and a lot of
millennials now, because peopleare saying, hey, there is a
(26:58):
social justice message embeddedin the Bible, they're turning to
the black church to bring thatout.
I have a quote here.
It says black emerginggenerations still have faith in
the core of the black church.
Because of this, authenticityand inclusion are both necessary
.
Don't make the assumption thatyou're winning young souls to
(27:19):
Christ.
Instead, show emerginggenerations what followers of a
risen Christ looks like in themidst of the turmoil that exists
today.
Nice.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Yeah, beautiful.
I'll forever be willing to goto a church and I'll be on the
front row.
You know what I'm saying.
But I also am in the spacewhere I know how to, as my
grandfather, bishop lewin, wouldsay, take the meat and leave
the bones.
And so it's good to be agatekeeper for yourself or a
filter for yourself.
(27:52):
Nice, do what's going toempower you, wow.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Man, I'm going to leave on that note.
I love what you just said Be agatekeeper for yourself.
That's a good one.
Thanks for listening.
If you enjoyed this episode andyou'd like to help support the
podcast, please share it withothers, post about it on social
(28:16):
media or leave a rating andreview.
To catch all the latest from me, you can follow me on Instagram
at Stuber underscore podcast.
Thanks again and until nexttime.
Keep your head up and eyes onthe roof.
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