December 18, 2024 • 51 mins
In Episode 81 Bill goes on location to interview some of the guys who started a new flight school recently. Legion Air wants to teach people to be the best aviators they can be, so let's find out what makes them tick, what their approach is, and how to turn a large fortune into a small fortune in aviation.
Links:
- Private Pilot ACS - Mentioned in the episode, this is the Airman Certification Standards document that is the roadmap to the Private Pilot checkride.
- Airline & Commercial Pilot Training Programs / ATP Flight School - Since it's mentioned several times, if you want to know more about ATP, this is your link to their official website.
- Legion Air - Find out more about the new flight school, Legion Air.
Hope you enjoy the episode and thanks for listening! Visit the SPC website at https://studentpilotcast.com. Please keep the feedback coming. You can use the contact form on the website or send email to bill at student pilot cast dot com. The theme song for our episodes is "To Be an Angel" by the band, "Uncle Seth".
Legal Notice: Remember, any instruction that you hear in this podcast was meant for me and me alone in the situation that we happened to be in at the time. Please do not try to apply anything you see or hear in this episode or any other episode to your own flying. If you have questions about any aspect of your flying, please consult a qualified CFI.
Copyright 2008-2025, studentpilotcast.com and Bill Williams
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bill (00:05):
All right, we got a special episode of the student pilot cast today.
Um, I'm here on location,which we don't usually do.
Um, but I'm here at a local newflight school called Legion Air,
but we'll get to that in a second.
Chandler Tower, Cherokee 4 1 2 1tangos at Chandler Air Service.
We have Zulu and, uh, we'dlike a south departure, please.
(00:26):
One of those, it's said to be an angel.
Alright guys, so welcome to the student pilot cast.
(00:48):
Oh, thanks.
Thank you.
Thanks for having us.
So I'm sitting here withMax and Carl and Matt.
You guys want to introduceyourselves real quick?
Matt (00:58):
Yeah, uh, my name's Matt.
Um, locally from Arizona, beenflying for four years now and
just really love aviation.
Carl (01:07):
I'm Carl.
I'm from New York, uh,Hudson Valley region.
I've been flying for about four years now.
I just got a position as firstofficer in a regional airline.
Max (01:19):
Awesome.
My name is Max.
I'm originally from Tillamook, Oregon,the land of cheese trees and ocean breeze.
Um, so it's been quite the transitionmoving down here and dealing
with the heat, but I'm reallyenjoying the aviation community.
Bill (01:32):
It's pretty nice this time of year though, right?
Yeah,
Max (01:34):
definitely.
Bill (01:35):
Cool.
All right.
So we're here because you guysjust started a flight school
a few months back, right?
All right.
So, so before we get into any of that, Um,I want to ask you guys, uh, one at a time.
Max, I'll start with you.
Okay.
Why aviation?
Why'd you get into aviation?
Max (01:54):
Yeah, definitely.
Well, I grew up with an amazing pilotgrandmother who ultimately raised me,
um, so we spent a lot of time at theTillamook Air Museum just bumming around
on the weekends trying to catch ridesand fancy old World War II warbirds.
And that just sparked a passion in me.
Um, I ended up going off to school,um, taking a break from flying.
(02:17):
And then once I graduated in 2020, Irealized this is where I wanted to be.
So I took the plunge and here I am.
Carl (02:27):
All right.
Carl, what about you?
All right, yeah.
Silly story, but a fun story, right?
So, uh, I went to collegefor music performance.
Jazz performance on the guitar.
I was kind of like followingwhat my dad was doing.
And I ended up movingout to Texas for a while.
And I was a part of theblues rock scene out there.
(02:48):
And to make ends meet, I Iwas an Uber driver, right?
Cause like my whole philosophy on life isjust like, try not to be behind a desk.
You know, I feel like that'ssort of driving sort of crazy.
And, um, you know, a big partof like the Uber driving route
would be in the mornings, right?
Four to 6am taking people to the airport.
(03:09):
And so I'm driving into Austin,uh, international airport and I
see, you know, just like a Boeingflying overhead and it's coming in
on approach and I'm sitting there.
And I'm thinking to myself,I'm like, bro, I could do that.
I'm already doing that.
Right.
I've got a couple of guys in thebackseat, taking them to the airport.
Might as well just likeget in an airplane.
So when the pandemic hit and it droppedthe bottom out of the music industry,
(03:32):
uh, I was like, all right, sweet.
It's time, time for a career change.
So I went back home, did an intro flight.
I was like, this is one of thebest things I've ever done.
Uh, and started research and flightschools figured that probably
Arizona was the place to be.
And that's how I metthese two guys, right?
Uh, they were both, uh, well, Max wasn'tMatt was my student for a hot second.
(03:54):
Um, that's how I originally methim and started flying out here.
And, you know, it was definitely oneof the best things I've ever done.
Bill (04:02):
Awesome.
So, um, you're basically wantingto be an Uber driver of the sky.
Carl (04:07):
Yeah, that was the entire intention.
I was like, they probably get paidbetter, you know, like a little
bit better than what I'm making.
The
Bill (04:15):
app is better.
Carl (04:16):
The app is, oh man, dude, let me tell you about the app.
The app is amazing.
The app can follow you across the country.
Bill (04:23):
Nice.
All right,
Matt (04:24):
Matt.
Uh, what about you?
Uh, for me, I, uh, I'm the fourthgeneration pilot in my family.
Um, fifth current pilot.
active pilot in the family.
So aviation just been partof my life growing up.
And one day I took a flight withmy uncle and he's like, you know,
you should, you should do this.
And I was like, there'sno way I can do this.
Um, struggled through highschool and thought aviation
(04:45):
was just a hard thing to do.
I'm not smart enough typething and then started flight
training and here I am today.
Bill (04:53):
Excellent.
All right, so you had people inyour family that were sort of
mentors and things like that.
Um, Max, did you have anybody like that?
Max (05:02):
Yeah, definitely.
Your grandma, right?
Yeah.
So, um, my grandmother.
And her father, uh, beforeher, were both pilots.
Um, she's not current anymore, butI've always just carried her passion
for flying and aviation with me.
Um, I remember being, I think, ten yearsold and reading through her father's war
(05:23):
diary, essentially, and just thinking,while it was horrible, the experiences
that they were going through, um,how amazing it was to be in the air.
Cool.
Bill (05:37):
All right.
Well, you guys came to Arizona andyou ended up meeting each other
and then starting a flight school.
How did that happen?
Matt (05:47):
Uh, well, originally, um, we were at the big pilot mill, uh,
ATP and Max and I ended up beingin the same CFI class together.
And we just kind of sat in the back andjust kind of started talking to each
other and BS and about aviation andtrying to build our lesson plans together.
And we just hit it off.
And then, um, like Carl mentionedearlier, I was, he was my CSI instructor.
(06:11):
So I went up on a couple CFIproficiency flights with him.
Just ended up really jiving withhis aura and everything, and we've
just been friends ever since.
Max (06:21):
Yeah, and I think that's one of those prime examples about how things just
fall into place like they're supposed to.
I remember that first dayat CFI Academy at ATP.
I'm not a real talkative guy, notvery outgoing, but Matt just turned
around and started talking to me.
And from then on we becamestudy buddies, we worked through
our lesson plans together.
And then he met Carl and somehowwe all wound up working at the same
(06:44):
flight school that wasn't ATP alittle bit longer down the line.
It just was miraculous really.
Bill (06:53):
All right, and how did you meet him, Carl?
Carl (06:56):
So, all right, you know, really, really met Matt originally as a student
and, uh, you know, he ended up moving on.
I didn't really think I'd seehim again until I walked into,
uh, yeah, the local flight schoolthat we all ended up working at.
And I was looking for a job, right?
So that was kind of an accident then.
(07:16):
Oh, 100%.
Yeah.
But it was, but it was great.
Like, you know, I walk into thelobby, I'm wearing a suit and I'm
like, Hey, like, Hey, what's up?
I'm like, I need a job.
He's like, all right, cool.
And I ended up getting hired there.
Uh, and then.
You know, they eventually, I wasrunning their CFI program and eventually
ended up making me their chief.
(07:37):
And me and Matt were becomingreally good friends at that point.
And we made him my assistant chief.
I'm like, sweet.
And then as things were progressingat that school, we realized that
there were other roles that neededto be really taken care of, right?
Cause it kind ofbottlenecked up to one guy.
So I was trying to spread it out.
And that's when we got Max on board.
At that point, the three of ushad really solidified as a team.
(08:00):
And when we determined that itwas time to start our own flight
school, it seemed like a very logicaltransition that it was going to be
the three of us kind of up against it.
Bill (08:09):
You know?
So I, I have to stop here for a minute.
Um, you guys got to tell me, So, howdid, uh, how did Carl pull off a suit?
This I would like to see.
Yeah.
Matt (08:21):
I missed out on that.
It was just, uh, cause I knew Carlin the, the ATP blue and I was like,
what the heck are you doing here, man?
I had shoes on, nice shoes onand not as Vans and I'm like,
well, look, you clean up good.
Yeah.
Bill (08:36):
Yeah.
So for listeners who don'tknow this, when I started.
Uh, my CFI training, Carl started meoff, and I can't picture him in a suit.
Matt (08:48):
I'm having a hard time with that.
Yeah, he came in the other daywearing his, uh, has get up from
and I was like, holy cow, man,you actually look, you look good.
Carl (08:58):
Nice.
Bill (09:04):
All right.
So why, why start a flight school?
Like why, why not just keepworking at other flight
schools that are in the Valley?
What, what is special about Legionnaire?
What are you trying to do?
Uh, that's maybe a little bit different.
Matt (09:19):
Yeah, I think the main thing that all of us had in in mind of what
we wanted to do when we came up withthis idea was just we saw a bunch of
the pros and we saw a bunch of thecons and every school that we had gone
to and work work for and trained at.
They just seemed like thetransparency was a huge thing.
Uh, there just wasn't enough transparencywith the training aspects of it.
(09:42):
And it was like, Oh yeah, just come on,you're doing fine, you're doing fine.
Well, we didn't really like that.
So it was like, all right, well,how can we make this better?
And then we were all sittinghaving a beer one night and
let's just start our own school.
Next thing you know,here, here Legionnaire is.
Carl (09:57):
Right.
Cause like such a big.
Deficiency that we're finding right now ispeople are, they're glued to procedures,
they're glued to things that they'relike, you know, they've been taught to do.
It's like, this is just how Ienter a traffic pattern, but why?
Right?
You know, and this is one of thebiggest complaints we hear with the
DPEs that we work with is that yougot, you got some guys who are acting
(10:17):
just effectively, robotically, right?
Automatic response.
With.
A lot of situations that, youknow, that they're fluid, even in
something as basic as landing, right?
We were having a conversation with oneof our students today and with like
some of the key fundamentals of justgetting an airplane on the ground.
And as you know, like an airplanehas to move forward in order to work.
(10:40):
Right.
So it's all about elevator effectiveness.
So how do you make theelevator more effective?
If you're trying to keep the nose gearoff the ground when you land, it's
like, dude, you gotta go faster, right?
You need the plane moving through the air.
So you're either losing too muchspeed or you need something else
to get the nose off the ground,which would just be adding power.
(11:00):
And it's these types of things thatwe're really trying to get our students
to think about so that when we putthem up against a DPE, they're like,
yeah, dude, this guy is an aviator.
He's not just someone whomet the requirements to
legally pass a check, right?
This guy is going to be good and safe.
And, you know, big picture, all of theseguys are going to be flying around our
(11:21):
friends and families for the most, right?
That's most, mostly what we'reThe pilot training nowadays
is, is going to the airlines.
So who do you want to make to put inthat flight, you know, like put in
that, uh, put in that flight deck.
Cause otherwise it could get really bad.
You know, as you probably know thatwe might end up talking about it, like
(11:43):
when things go bad, they go bad fast.
Right.
Um, and getting out of itisn't that hard if you, if you
really know what you're doing.
Yeah.
If
Matt (11:51):
you understand what's going on around you versus just, I got
to do this, this, this and this.
Well, why do you have to do that?
So that was a big thing that we saw whenwe were doing all of our stage checks
and mock check rides for students.
It's like you, you have theknowledge there, but you don't
have the knowledge there.
You just have the realunderstanding of what's going on.
Max (12:14):
Yeah.
And circling back to why we did this,uh, flight schools are naturally
a polarizing subject, right?
There are a lot of people who.
Um, felt like ATP worked for them, right?
But their process isfundamentally inflexible, right?
And that's why it doesn't workfor everyone, and that's why
people wind up washing out.
Um, the benefit of starting a smallerflight school is we're allowed that
(12:37):
flexibility to really tailor ourprocesses to the individual learner.
I mean, as CFI training, a huge partof the process of obtaining your CFI
certificate is Tailoring your teachingstyle to your individual student, right?
So it doesn't really make sense to buildit around one type of person when there's
(12:58):
so many types of people out there.
Cool.
Bill (13:02):
All right.
Sounds good.
So why Legionnaire?
How did that come about?
Carl (13:12):
Oh, all right.
So the types of planes thatwe're flying right now are
Beechcraft Musketeers, right?
And so it's kind of a pun, right?
We're Musketeers in a Legion.
So you're now a Legionnaireflying a Musketeer, right?
Clever.
Bill (13:33):
Um, all right.
And so how's it been going?
Like, what's it like tostart a flight school?
Matt (13:39):
Oh man, it's been tricky.
Yeah.
There's been some stuff that you,you think, you know, everything,
but you don't know everything.
And it's, it's every dayis a learning process.
Um, like Max was saying earlier,trying to build a, a syllabus.
All right.
Well, this, how, what, what works best?
Well, this worked good for me.
That works good for you.
And then trying to incorporate thatall from, let's just take all the
(14:01):
good stuff and put it in there.
And so it's like constantly remoldingit until we get that Perfect, uh,
syllabus and so, uh, plan, basically.
All
Carl (14:13):
right.
I don't know.
It's, it's tricky.
Well, I mean, anything'stricky in the beginning, right?
So, it's, it's kind of funny in the sensethat the easiest part about starting
your own flight school Flying, right?
Yeah.
Cause then you go back to everythingthat you, that you've been doing
and you just know it so well.
It's like, yeah, dude, the easiest partsabout this is just being in a plane.
(14:35):
Right.
I think, uh, for, for the three ofus, the thing that we're finding
is the most difficult part isjust the business aspect of it.
Right.
You know, it's just all the daily stuffthat you didn't really think about when
you had that overhead provided for you.
Right.
And now it's up to us tomake all that stuff happen.
Like finding DPS,
like
Bill (14:56):
what a bummer.
Tell me about it.
You know?
Carl (14:58):
Yeah.
Bill (14:59):
Yeah.
Okay.
I can totally see that.
So, um, now that you're gettingstarted, what's the best part
about running your own flightschool and what's the worst part.
Max (15:12):
It's definitely like the personal relationships that we have the
opportunity to form, um, our studentsare no longer molded into being just.
Cash flow for someone else.
I mean, we can actually spend theamount of time, um, dedicated to
our particular student, right?
Um, and we don't really have the samebig brother oversight looking over our
(15:37):
shoulder, um, forcing us to do things theway that they want things done, right?
There's that flexibility once again.
Bill (15:45):
So, what you're saying is basically, um, Yeah.
You have a philosophy on how you want todo it, and by running your own, you're
able to do it the way you want to do it.
Max (15:55):
Yeah, definitely.
Treat people likepeople, not like numbers.
Carl (16:00):
And like, you know, alright, who was saying it?
Was it your uncle?
It was, or bringing up thiscomment that like, you get a lot,
especially in Phoenix, right?
The majority of your cross country flighttraining is to like three airports.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
And like, I can't stand that.
Oh, it's ridiculous.
You know what I mean?
Like, yeah, sure.
Okay.
Marana from here is cross country,but if you only ever go there, do you
(16:24):
like really understand how to do it?
So like Max and I flewone of our students.
And, uh, Utah, you mean?
Utah and back, right?
And that's something that we cando since we're in charge of the
operations of our aircraft now, right?
As opposed to going to, youknow, whatever management and
be like, please let me do this.
Like, oh, it's too far,too much of liability.
It's like, dude, whatdo you mean liability?
(16:45):
Like, I'm a pilot.
I'm training this person to be a pilot.
You know, crossing stateborders is huge, right?
Now you have to really think aboutthings like fuel planning, weather
patterns, uh, change in pressure, allthat different stuff that you're not
going to get in such a localized area.
Yeah.
Time zones.
(17:06):
Yeah.
Bill (17:07):
Who has time zones?
It's all Zulu time, right?
Oh, that's there you go, baby.
Yeah.
So, I.
This is a pet peeve of mine.
I'm trying to, my son, my listeners knowthat my son, Merrick is a private pilot.
he, his plan has been to continueon, although he's in a bit of a I
(17:28):
don't know, a slow point right now,a holding pattern, there you go.
but, he was trying to build time and hewas doing these cross countries and I'm
going, bro, you've got to go other places.
Like this is not teaching you anything.
I don't remember exactly how manyhours I had at the time, but I think.
Um, I, it was probably back in 2010, Iprobably had like 150 hours and I decided
(17:53):
to take one of my club 182s and fly witha non pilot to Oshkosh for the week.
I learned some stuff on thatflight, as you can imagine.
And it was an incredible experienceand those are the types of experience
that I think pilots should have.
And it sounds like you guys kind of agree.
(18:13):
You probably don't know this, butI, I do a, I do a feature on the
podcast called beyond the checkride, and I do it with one of my
old co hosts from the pilot cast.
And, um, we're always talking about,we take a single topic that isn't
really covered as part of the, uh,Any curriculum for private pilot
and, we kind of go into that.
(18:34):
Those are the types of things likefueling your airplane on your own.
like how do you tie downat a strange airport?
you know, how do you plan your descentwhen you're on a real cross country?
How, you know, those types of things thatreally aren't in the, um, I, I almost
said PTS cause I'm old, but in the ACS.
(18:54):
Um, but those are the things youlearn when you start actually flying.
So how do you guys give those sortsof experiences to your students?
Matt (19:06):
we had one student that, uh, was going in for a CFI and just came from
one of those pilot mills that, Allthey knew was GPS and that was really
lacking the, uh, um, piloted skills.
And so it was like just taking thatGPS away from her and Carl made her
just fly it with a VFR sectional chart.
(19:27):
I mean, you can speak more on that.
Yeah,
Carl (19:29):
you know, I mean, but, but that's, that's the whole idea of it, right?
So it's kind of bringing backsome old school techniques, right?
Like I, you know, being able to lookat a map and just identifying it.
What's on it and where youare in relationship to it.
So like, you know, thisparticular student of mine, right.
(19:50):
You know, I kind of did a demo with heras we were flying back from Wickenburg,
which is just North of Phoenix.
And it was nighttime and I kind ofwanted to make sure that I could do it.
So I was like, all right, dude, I'mlike, I'm going to prove it to you.
Right.
No GPS at night, paper sectional.
I'm getting us back to Falcon.
Right.
And you start thinking about allthese different, you know, Different
(20:11):
ways of, uh, you know, just lookingaround and different types of cues.
Which is, that's, that's one of thebig things that people are lacking.
Like, the, the biggest example I gaveher was like, we're looking straight
ahead and like, do you see thislight, like way off past the prop?
She's like, yeah.
I'm like, do you see howit's skipping off the ground?
(20:31):
It's like reflecting.
She's like, yeah.
I'm like, okay, we're in Arizona.
What do you think that is?
Like, why do you think it'sskipping off the ground?
She's like, I don't know.
Yeah, it's not ice, butit's like ice is water.
Right?
So here you go, kid.
Right.
What's the only major body ofwater on this map right now
and is a Lake Pleasant, right?
(20:53):
Yeah.
And we're like sick.
All right, cool.
So we know right now we'refacing Lake Pleasant.
And we just got to keep going that way.
Look at your compass.
Which way are we going?
We're going Southwest, uh, Southeast.
Sweet.
All right.
So on this heading, right, oncewe get over that lake, what's
going to be another landmark andit's that sort of stuff, right?
Things where you can like reallytake the time to like, just
(21:13):
get them to work on something.
Um, that's going to be like wildly beyondthe comfort zone of most flight schools.
Like a lot of flight schools don'teven want you flying at night unless
it's for the night requirement.
Right.
You know,
Max (21:26):
yeah, when I was training at one of those big box flight
schools, not all too long ago, um,I was accomplishing one of my cross
country flights with my instructor.
I was working on my commercialrating and we flew up from Tucson
to Phoenix Mesa gateway, right?
And we got off a little bit late.
We got dinner, we got back to the plane.
Um, and the sun was starting toset, you know, we ate up more
(21:49):
time than we had anticipated.
Um, and unfortunately that school had arequirement or, um, yeah, a requirement
that we could not fly at night unlessit was for the purpose of satisfying
nighttime towards a rating, right?
Wow.
So we had to call their headquartersin Jacksonville, Florida to receive
(22:12):
approval to fly back to Tucsonright after the sunset, right?
I was, uh, an instrument ratedpilot at this point, working
on my commercial rating.
She was a very experienced CFI with1, 400 hours and we could not fly back
without the approval of somebody sittingin a cubicle in Jacksonville, Florida.
(22:33):
Does that make any sense?
No.
Bill (22:36):
Yeah, that's pretty wild.
I didn't know that.
Yeah.
I didn't, I didn't know thatkind of thing was going on.
Carl (22:41):
I mean, that's just the stuff that you get at the flight
schools that are really justproducing pilots, like based on FAA.
minimum standards.
You know what I mean?
Uh, like all the, all the fast trackstuff, which there's nothing wrong with
a fast track program per se, right?
What ends up going wrong is, uh, you geta lot of the blind, lean the blind, right?
(23:03):
So you get, yeah, they'll, they'll,they'll, they usually hired house, which
is like pretty typical for like any place.
Right.
But you get a weaker instructor whoisn't comfortable flying at night.
Right.
They produce a pilot that isn'tcomfortable flying at night.
That pilot becomes a flight instructor.
Now, their student, right, isn't, isprobably even less comfortable flying
(23:26):
at night, having learned from a personwho is uncomfortable flying at night.
Right?
And it just like startssnowballing on itself.
Max (23:32):
And eventually they get to their 1, 500 hours and all of a
sudden they're an airline pilot who'snot comfortable flying at night.
That's
Carl (23:40):
scary.
Right.
Or, I mean, at least withoutthe use of autopilot.
Right.
And it's like, right.
Cause you know, what do you, whatdo you do if the autopilot fails?
The plane will be fine.
The plane will be perfectly fine.
You just got to use trim now.
Right.
Easy solutions.
But think about like the panicand the shock factor that goes
(24:00):
into it and how much people startgetting wrapped up in their heads
cause they're just not used to it.
Right.
Yeah.
I
mean, that's why I'm a, I'm a big proponent of like
teaching people in six packs.
I would love to have a glasscockpit, don't get me wrong.
But flying in a six pack just makes youfly the plane as an extension of yourself.
Bill (24:17):
Well, the, the avionics can be a huge distraction.
Yeah.
And I mean, even with a sixpack, sometimes you have a hard
time getting a student to lookoutside the airplane, right?
But you put a giant video gamescreen in front of them, and
it's going to be way worse.
Especially for younger pilots oryounger students who have grown
(24:38):
up in a video game age, right?
So, yeah, for sure, those are hugedistractions, and it's hard to cover
them up with a small sticky note.
Oh yeah, without like takingthe whole thing out, you know?
Carl (24:52):
Yeah, I think a big part of our, uh, idea here is try to, try to break
all the crutches that we've seen, right?
You know?
I love it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause you just don't need it.
You don't need it.
I mean like, it's, I don't knowdude, I feel like flying a little
plane is like riding a motorcycle.
Which you know.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
And you gotta like, you gotta makethat bike do what you want it to
(25:13):
do and not the other way around.
Cause once it goes the other wayaround, stuff starts getting weird.
Like.
For
Max (25:18):
sure.
You know.
And one last thing to note.
Something to consider with thosebigger box flight schools is the
last filter in all of their decisionmaking from the headquarters on
down to the flight instructor.
is liability, right?
That's the last thing they consider.
There is excess liability when theysend a certified flight instructor and a
(25:40):
commercial student out on a cross countryat night when they don't need to, right?
That's money that could be potentiallypulled out of their pockets.
And we don't have that filter.
I mean, not to the same extent, at least,obviously we don't want our planes broken.
We don't want to put themin an unsafe condition.
We would never do that.
But there's Necessity and there'sexcess, um, risk consideration, right?
Carl (26:05):
Right.
You know, just from like a purely monetarystandpoint, like that's not what we're
concerned about with our risk mitigation.
You know, it's like,yeah, dude, it's fine.
We'll spend a little extra money togive you a really valuable experience.
Right.
Like as best as we can,you know what I mean?
Bill (26:21):
Right.
Well, that's, uh, that'spretty cool because, I, right.
In my, you know, my time, my 15 years inaviation, I've seen it change quite a bit.
Back when I was doing my private, we, wedid more of that, at least where I trained
at, at Chandler Air Service back then.
It's a totally different place now,different management and everything,
(26:42):
but, and I'm sure they're great.
I'm not saying anything bad aboutthem, but, it was, it was really
like new experiences and we weresupposed to go get new experiences.
And I was, you know, my long crosscountries and my, my cross countries,
my solo cross countries, I shouldsay, we're all into the mountains in
the summer, which, I think are goodexperiences, you know, as long as you're
(27:05):
being taught to expect what's going tohappen in high density altitude and,
how much extra runway you're goingto need and the climb performance.
And I mean, these are things thatI think, does a pilot good, to
experience and experience on theirown sometimes when they're the PIC,
even before they get their ticket.
So I love, I love thatyou guys are doing that.
Matt (27:25):
Most definitely.
I don't think I really thoughtthat I could fly an airplane
until I left from Chandler.
And flew all the way to Dallassolo in a single and in the
Musketeer and eight zero Quebec.
And I was like, Once I landedthere on a grass strip, never
landed on a grass strip before.
It was like, man, I actually justcircumnavigated half the United States
with a VOR and stuff that that'skind of what we want to bring in back
(27:49):
into the training environment is likewhat Carl was saying earlier, is just
breaking that, those crutches and.
to the nitty gritty of making a decisionand being able to determine whether
or not you're making the correctdecision and how to perform that.
Bill (28:04):
All right.
So let's get into some, uh, let'sget into some controversy because
most of your students, most ofyour students are probably, You
know, headed to the airlines.
it seems to be, you know, a lot ofthe students, learning to fly right
now are not planning on going justinto GA, but some are, but a lot
are going to the airlines, right?
How, how do you think this typeof training, uh, by changing your
(28:27):
model, how do you think that'sgoing to affect positive or negative
pilots who end up in the airlines?
and On the other side of that coin,how does training to the ACS and kind
of, you know, doing it the pilot millway, if you will, how do you think
(28:48):
that, you know, contributes to thenegative side of going to the airlines?
Can you guys talk about that a little bit?
Carl (28:58):
Yeah.
Right.
All right.
So I think.
A major mindset of a lot of thesestudents is going to the airlines.
I'm going to be flyinga super sophisticated.
Automated plane, right?
You know, and like speaking fromexperience right now, like the main
part of your job is just taxi takeoffand landing, but they take that
(29:19):
mindset with them into, uh, liketheir regular everyday training.
I've got like one of my CFIstudents want to bash my head
against the wall is like here.
Tell me about VORs and it's like, give melike this, like a little spiel about it.
And he's like, but like,realistically, I would just use a GPS.
I'm like, yeah, dude, I get it.
(29:40):
I get it, right.
Yeah.
You would realistically use a GPS,but we're not gonna, you know, there
are very, there's a very slim chanceyou would have to rely on a VOR, but
you gotta know how to do it, right.
And you gotta be able to know howto do it well and figure it out.
If you have nothing, right.
You know what I mean?
Bill (30:00):
So, most people don't understand that GPS signals from the
satellites are barely above the noise.
These, you know, there's these massivelike solid state filters on these GPS
to even get the signal out of the noise.
Very easy to jam.
So So, And very easy to lose that.
(30:22):
And we've become so accustomed toalways having it, that we think it's
always going to be there, but it'sreally not that far fetched to think
that there'll be a time where you'reup flying and GPS is not accurate.
Oh yeah.
And Matt and I
Max (30:36):
experienced that.
I, when we were working at ourlast flight school, we had the
opportunity to ferry two PiperArcher threes from Tulsa, Oklahoma to
Falcon field here in Mesa, Arizona.
Right.
And it was a very long flight to do inone day, and we had to do it in one day
for reasons we'll probably get into later.
But, we were passing through West Texas,near White Sands, and very hot military
(31:00):
area, and they had jammed all of the GPSs.
And we heard, uh, uh, what was it?
Matt (31:06):
ATP was like, they were telling them to do a departure,
and they're like, well, I can't.
And They were like, well, careertrack, you got to do this.
You'd fly the VOR.
And they're like, well, my GPS is out.
And it's like, what the heck?
And yeah, then when we landed in Deming,um, there were two other planes that
landed in front of us, a Cirrus anda, uh, one 82, I believe, and both
(31:29):
of them grabbed their POHs and wentinto the boardroom and I was like,
I wonder what those guys are doing.
So I went in there andtalked to him for a second.
And they're like, yeah, our GPS, GPSsweren't working, our autopilot wouldn't
work, and I just bought this plane,we're flying back to California, and
now it's not working, and I'm like,yeah, it's not, you're not going to
find anything in there, they, they jamGPSs over here in the white sands all
(31:49):
the time, and he's like, oh, I thoughtsomething was wrong with my airplane.
They're just, everyone'sjust so reliant on.
The new stuff.
Okay,
Bill (31:57):
I rest my case.
Carl (31:58):
Right, yeah.
I mean, we're all onthe same page for sure.
And I think, I think it's studentsare going in with the wrong
attitude as a result, right?
They're trying to make it tothe stage where like, yeah, you
become a glorified button pusher.
Which, to be fair, to be like completelyfair to like all the airline pilots
out there, it's not all it is.
Yeah.
Like, you know.
(32:19):
You're there
Bill (32:19):
for the emergencies too.
Carl (32:20):
Well, yeah.
Yeah.
But like, you know.
I mean, just, just remember this, like,next time it's super bumpy coming into
land, there is some poor 30 year old guysweating it out, like, death gripping
the controls trying to hold plane level.
You know what I mean?
Like, they're probably not taking the GP,like, the autopilot all the way in, right?
Just
Bill (32:40):
like you were in flight school.
Just like
Carl (32:42):
you were in flight school.
Some
Bill (32:44):
things don't change, right?
Carl (32:46):
Right, and like, now the thing with the ACS is, it's the FAA's way to try
to standardize and present a template.
To be tested on, right?
People are testing to the ACS.
So what they're trying to do isthey're trying to create every
maneuver in every scenario basedon a set of like given parameters,
because that is the legal documentthat they're supposed to be tested on.
(33:08):
And I think what kind of like whatwe were alluding to earlier in the
conversation is, is just preventingpeople from getting like a really good.
experience in a lot of ways, right?
What is it for commercial?
A hundred hours of cross country?
Uh, I think so.
I'll top of my head.
Yeah, we should know.
(33:30):
I mean, but, but point being right, youcan fulfill that by going very short.
Consistent distances, right?
But it's not real cross country.
You, you're legally required to do one300 nautical mile cross country, but
that's, that's it, you know what I mean?
Like how much do you reallylearn from doing anything once?
Yeah, it's just like, you know,they're, they're doing their best, but
(33:52):
like, if you, if that is the trainingdocument that you're teaching to,
you're teaching people how to get outof very specific situations, right?
And you gotta, you gottastart like thinking about.
You know, like the more broad sortof strokes, you know what I mean?
Like, well, I mean, like, here you go.
What do you do if youroil temperature spikes?
(34:14):
Do you know what's going on?
I don't entirely know what's going on.
I have an idea of whereI would start though.
Right.
And okay, here we go.
Right.
Matt, you know, this story betterthan I do, but, uh, uh, the, uh,
the Oxford Atlanta on the road.
You know what I'm talking about?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
You know what I mean?
Not too long ago.
Like a ridiculous situation right here.
(34:35):
Yeah, just give them the
Matt (34:36):
synopsis.
Out by, out by my house and likea bunch of my neighbors text me,
did you try to land at your house?
And I was like, no, I didn't.
Cut my commute down, but it wasn't me.
And um, they said that they hadsmelled electrical fire or fire.
So they shut it down and theylanded on a two lane highway
(34:56):
out in the south practice area.
And school buses had to diveoff the road and they landed.
And after, after they startedinvestigating it, uh, from my
knowledge, from what I was reading isthat there was no fire or anything.
But even then it's like, okay, what wouldyou do if you got an electrical fire?
Well, I'm going to start pullingbreakers and shut the master off and
(35:16):
I'm going to continue on to Gateway.
Bill (35:18):
Fly to an airport.
Yeah.
With all
Matt (35:20):
the electrical system off.
Exactly.
And so it's, but they were just followingthe SOPs and this is what I got to do.
I'm going to go here.
And I got into a debate with, uh, anotherone of the CFI students, and I said,
well, what would you do in that scenario?
Well, I probably would'vedone the same thing.
And I was like, why is that?
You wouldn't troubleshoot in a
Bill (35:38):
helicopter,
Matt (35:39):
right?
But we're relating itback to the airplanes.
And he was, uh, is like, I'd probablydo the same thing because that's the
procedure out there and he was militaryand they're, you're trained in the
military to follow the procedures.
And so it's like, okay, well.
Let's break that and then I'dexplain my my thoughts on it.
He was like, yeah, you're probably rightI would probably do the same thing.
(36:01):
I would want my Studentsto think that way.
So that's kind of what we're tryingto hope to bring to it because they
Max (36:09):
And for anybody that uses the ACS as a crutch Right here on the first page
task a in regards to risk management Wehave the applicant is able to identify,
assess, and mitigate risks associatedwith proficiency versus currency, right?
And that's what all of thesearguments come down to.
You can be a current pilot with a privatepilot rating, who does not know or
(36:31):
understand how to handle a situation whereyou smell smoke in the cockpit, right?
Whose first reaction is to landon a two way highway and not only
risk their lives, but the lives ofthe kids in the school bus, right?
Carl (36:43):
Right.
Yeah, I mean, like, I think it isimportant to remember that these
procedures are in place, like,if it is a really obvious thing.
Procedures are also a goodplace to start, right?
But, you gotta, you gotta be, yougotta be, you gotta be a pilot, right?
At some point, just be like,alright, here we go, right?
(37:04):
First of all, if I smellelectrical smoke, what could it
possibly be coming from, right?
And that's why, you know,you shut down everything.
That's the thing.
But if you're really knowledgeableabout what's going on, it's like,
yeah, dude, if I shut down everything,but the mixture's in and the mags are
still on, the plane still runs, right?
And like, how long does it take meto get from, it was basically like
(37:25):
Johnson Ranch area to Gateway, right?
Five minutes, right?
You know, so unless you see like actualfire licking up by your feet, go forward.
You know what I mean?
Right, right, right.
Uh, just, you know, just followyour lost comms procedures, make
a safe decision, land on a runway,call ATC afterwards, right?
Because I think that is another thing, isa lot of people live in this world where
(37:47):
they're just afraid to get in trouble.
It's like, stop, right?
You know, it's probably betterto be thinking about the ATC
system with pilots more as a team.
You know what I mean?
Like, they're not gonna,they're not gonna, you know,
Yeah, for sure.
Matt (38:06):
I mean, I bring up the, I got a phone number, um, and I'd
tell all my students that I said,it's, don't be afraid of them.
They're there to help us.
Um, don't get in the mindsetthat we work for them.
They work for us.
They're just helping.
They're just help clearing the area.
We're the ones
Bill (38:22):
with the butts on the line.
Right.
Yeah.
Right.
Matt (38:24):
Yeah.
When I landed on the, I was, I was out atChandler and coming into land from Dallas
in my mind, I'm like, all right, cool.
I'm going to land on 22 rightfrom Deming, New Mexico.
I just kept saying that in myhead, I'm cleared to land 22 right.
Cause that's where the plane tiesdown in the ramp and he cleared
me to land 22 left and I was like,yeah, cleared to land 22 right.
(38:45):
And came in, landed, and he's like,Hey, I got a phone number for you.
And I was like, Oh my gosh, yeah.
My heart sunk, and I waslike, I just lost my cert.
Everything's done.
I called him up, and he's like, Yeah,do you know why I gave you the number?
I said no, but we talked about it,and he said, You landed on the wrong
runway, you're cleared to land 22 left, and you landed 2 2 right.
Luckily, there was nobody there.
(39:06):
I was the only plane coming in.
And we talked about it for asecond, and I said, well, I, I'm
pretty sure I said 2 2 right.
And he said, well, let me checkthe tapes, and he came back, and
he said, yeah, we both missed it.
So, it's a learning experience, andthat's what the FAA really, at the
end of the day, wants you to Right.
Is, don't be afraid to makea mistake, cause you're just,
you gotta learn from it.
Yep.
Yeah.
(39:26):
Yeah.
Bill (39:27):
Yep.
All right, cool.
So we've already talked a littlebit about it, but you guys know
I just, um, am a brand new CFI.
Congratulations.
So what are, what are some ofthe things I can look forward to?
Give me some of your best.
Instructor, or when youwere a student, stories.
(39:50):
Uh, I got a
Carl (39:51):
bunch.
Bill (39:52):
Alright, alright, alright,
Carl (39:53):
here we go.
Bill (39:54):
And we'll, you know, we'll leave names out to protect
the innocent or the guilty.
Carl (39:59):
Alright, here we go.
I'll tell you the quick storyof how I ended up, uh, working
with these guys at our 61 school.
My departure from ATP.
Awesome.
It was awesome.
Right?
So, uh, I went a littletoo hard on a maneuver.
Uh, so unusual attitudes.
I, I think I've, I've told you the story.
Yeah.
(40:19):
Right.
I do remember.
You know, the short and simple of it was,um, you know, when I was working as a,
You know, uh, a CFI instructor, right?
Teaching people to be CFIs at ATP.
And, you know, I wanted to give someonea genuine shock factor because it happens
from time to time, like, you know, I'vebeen unintentionally spun by a student
(40:42):
and that's a genuine shock factor.
You're like, Oh, okay, here we go.
We're in a situation.
And so, you know, one thing.
That, you know, I don't know if I'vetold you, but just remember your
students are incredibly literal, right?
And so you have to speak inan incredibly literal way.
(41:02):
And I was demonstrating that with thisguy and I was like, all right, cool.
Show me how to trim the plane.
And he's like, okay.
So I'm like, all right,so what's the idea, right?
Like the, the plane feels like it's a.
Fail the plane feels likeit's starting to pitch up.
What do I do?
He's like, oh, you know, he'sjust like, uh, oh, no Yeah, the
plane feels like it's pitch day.
He's like, yeah, so give it someuptrip now We're in a Cessna 172 the
(41:23):
trim wheel right if you spin it fromthe floor That's nose down, right?
And so I'm like, Oh, I'mgonna be a little silly guy.
Okay, sure.
I'll give it some up trim.
Right.
And so I spin the wheel up andI know he's not looking at me.
So I'm like six.
So this is another good, likeyou got to monitor your student.
You got to like, and you
Bill (41:41):
were sort of acting as the student.
Yeah,
Carl (41:44):
it's just like playing around.
Right.
Uh, pretending to be the student.
Which, you know, PSA to all flightinstructors out there, right?
You gotta watch like everythingyour student does, no matter
their experience level, right?
The guy who spun me was acommercial student on his
commercial mock truck ride, right?
Full on spin dope.
Anyway.
So this kid, uh, I startedspinning the trim wheel up
(42:04):
and I'm like, all right, cool.
Now I'm holding the plane like.
Level and I'm doing a pretty good jobbecause we're like straight level, right?
You've been
Bill (42:11):
going to the gym.
Yeah, you know, yeah,
Carl (42:14):
it's just absolutely juiced up and I turn to him like alright, so how do I
know when when the plane's trimmed out?
He's like, well, you should be able tolet go of the yoke and the plane will
stay where it is I'm like, oh cool.
So I did right and the plane proceedsto incredibly dramatic nose dive.
Just BAM!
Right, straight down.
And, uh, you know, his eyes go wide,and I just get this giant grin,
(42:38):
and we pull up, uh, and, you know,he's like, ah, man, that was crazy.
I was like, oh, yeah.
And, uh, we, we went negativeG's and I looked in the back and
there's a huge crack in the window.
I'm like, Oh, right.
Cause in the dive, everything that was onthe ground went to the ceiling, including
the chalks in the back of the airplane.
Right.
Uh, which.
(42:59):
I mean, big learningexperience for me, right?
Obviously don't do that.
Or, you know, or
Bill (43:07):
tie everything down.
Carl (43:08):
That's the real, that's the real thing, right?
Because if I just secured everythingin the aircraft, you know, uh,
probably wouldn't have lost myjob, but then I would have never
really linked up with these guys.
So I'm like, yeah, okay.
You know, I'm kind of happy I did
Max (43:21):
that.
Carl (43:22):
I didn't like in the long run.
Max (43:24):
For all those, uh, future Legionnaire students here.
We do have cargo nets in, uh, the baggagecompartment of the musketeers, and that
Matt (43:33):
We learned from previous mistakes.
Hey, that's what
Bill (43:37):
it's all
Matt (43:37):
about, right?
Yeah,
Bill (43:38):
it's a learning experience.
It's always learning.
Always learning.
Awesome.
Anybody else got a goodstory they want to tell?
Matt (43:44):
Um, I got one just from being a student.
Um, so I got my license andthen never thought I would do
anything in the aviation industry.
Just wanted to be a good pilot.
because my whole family was a pilot.
That's how I
Bill (43:56):
started too.
And then here I am with CFI.
Matt (43:58):
Right.
And, um, so got the, the idea oneday to go to flight school and, uh,
went to ATP and loved my instructor.
We still talk all the time.
She's now flying for Airlines.
And, um, so we still have a reallygood relationship, but, um, It was
(44:19):
on one of my instrument flights,one of my first flights with her.
And I had about 250, 260 hoursat the time, because I did a
lot of just flying on my own.
And she, I was her first student and, uh,we got done after the flight and she was,
very upset with me and got out of theplane and got her stuff and like looked at
(44:41):
me and she goes you're a phenomenal stickand rudder but you're a shitty pilot and
flipped her hair at me and walked away andI was like what the heck does that mean?
And um, Didn't, didn'tsign my log book that day.
It didn't, didn't even debrief me.
Nothing.
She just let me sit on that fora day and came back the next day.
And she's like, I was like,what was up with that?
(45:02):
And she's like, you don't knowhow to hold your altitude.
You don't know how to hold a heading.
Cause I had 250 plus hours of me justbeing a VFR pilot, flying however I
wanted, doing whatever I wanted to do.
The weather anymore.
That, that gets, I look outside.
Um, and so that was likea big eye opener for me.
It was like, Oh, okay.
(45:23):
I got to take this serious.
And that was a, a big thing forme because at the time I was like,
I don't need to listen to you.
I have more hours thanyou and type of thing.
So yeah, it was a humbling moment for me.
Oh, that's cool.
Bill (45:38):
And there's always something we can learn from anybody.
Max (45:42):
And a piece of advice for all those future flight instructors out
there, you vomited on at some point.
So I have a fun story about that one.
Yeah.
I had a student who, for thefirst six flights in his aviation
journey, vomited every time.
The first time he didn't have abarf bag, but headset bag didn't
make it out of that venture.
(46:03):
So who has to clean that up?
Matt (46:06):
Maintenance.
Max (46:09):
We taxied back in and after that first flight, he had gotten most of it out
of the little like five by five window,um, on the side of the Piper Cherokee
and painted a nice racing stripe down it.
Um, and we were taxing in and the flightschool that I worked at at the time
had a really, really great ramp guy.
Um, and I could just see hisface drop as we rolled in.
(46:31):
Um, we got out of the plane and I insistedthat he let my student and I clean it up.
But he was very, well, moreinsistent than I was that he had
to clean it because it was his job.
He was one of those veryliteral folks out there.
But, um, you know, later on down theline, after that had happened a few times,
we got to the point where I had to sitdown with the student and say, Hey, man.
(46:55):
This isn't going to work for you.
This isn't going to be a career for you.
If you can't hold your luncheon fora one and a half hour flight, right?
Next lesson, we're going up.
I'm doing all of the flying and we'regoing to do commercial maneuvers.
We're going to do lazy eights,steep turns, 55 degree bank.
Wait, wait, wait.
He was a commercial pilot.
(47:16):
No, he was a private pilot,but this was my plan, right?
So we go up, we do all this stuff.
He's completely fine.
The whole flight never comes back.
So I don't know if I had, uh, you know,happened upon an ingenious idea and fix
this guy's permanent motion sicknessor what, but he never threw up again.
(47:37):
And what do you think did it?
I pushed him past his limits, right?
Oh, you were doing
Bill (47:43):
maneuvers that you, that you hadn't done before.
You're doing maneuvers that gotyou more over more up and down.
Yeah, exactly.
All right.
Carl (47:49):
Right.
I mean, like, yeah, anxiety
Matt (47:52):
puke.
Cause that's what a lot of studentsjust come in and they just so anxious
and, Oh man, what do I got to do?
And I know I had one, on hisfirst flight, did the same thing.
And I was like, Oh my gosh, don't do this.
I
Carl (48:09):
think, uh, in, in terms of that, you know, as you get your first student,
like if you get a zero, zero time student,Try to take them up like early in the
morning or kind of in the evening,especially when like the air is smooth.
When it's
Bill (48:21):
smooth,
Carl (48:22):
yeah.
But what you got to remember inthe beginning, because motion
sickness is just really, really bad.
Um, like it's a fight betweenwhat you are visually seeing
and what your body's feeling.
So when you're new person in a newairplane, you're gonna, at some
point you're going to feel sick.
And then one comes down to you, howwell you can hold it in, but doing
(48:42):
things like what Max was doing,which helps fix their sight picture.
Of like, what they're feelingand what they're seeing.
Once your brain reckon, like,starts to rectify what it is,
the motion sickness goes away.
Yeah.
Right?
And so, you know, just doing, doingsome easy stuff in the beginning.
Uh, and I remember when I wasfirst learning, I got the most
motion sick coming into the land.
(49:03):
Really?
Yeah, for me it was, it was theuh, scale change, and like how fast
the scale changed, and then likewhat you're feeling, you know, as
you're coming in, you're like, whoa.
Uh, I got over that in a couple offlights though, but again, it was once,
once your body gets used to it, you'regoing to feel a lot better, or your
(49:23):
students will feel a lot better, you know?
Bill (49:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cool.
All right.
Well, guys, good luckwith the flight school.
Really appreciate the, uh, theopportunity to sit down and talk to you.
It's fun to hear the stories.
Thanks
Max (49:36):
for having us
Bill (49:36):
on.
Max (49:36):
Yeah, thank you.
Bill (49:38):
Absolutely.
All right.
Thanks.
We'll talk to you soon.
All right, we got a special episode of the student pilot cast today.
Um, I'm here on location,which we don't usually do.
Um, but I'm here at a local newflight school called Legion Air,
but we'll get to that in a second.
Chandler Tower, Cherokee 4 1 2 1tangos at Chandler Air Service.
We have Zulu and, uh, we'dlike a south departure, please.
(00:26):
One of those, it's said to be an angel.
Alright guys, so welcome to the student pilot cast.
(00:48):
Oh, thanks.
Thank you.
Thanks for having us.
So I'm sitting here withMax and Carl and Matt.
You guys want to introduceyourselves real quick?
Matt (00:58):
Yeah, uh, my name's Matt.
Um, locally from Arizona, beenflying for four years now and
just really love aviation.
Carl (01:07):
I'm Carl.
I'm from New York, uh,Hudson Valley region.
I've been flying for about four years now.
I just got a position as firstofficer in a regional airline.
Max (01:19):
Awesome.
My name is Max.
I'm originally from Tillamook, Oregon,the land of cheese trees and ocean breeze.
Um, so it's been quite the transitionmoving down here and dealing
with the heat, but I'm reallyenjoying the aviation community.
Bill (01:32):
It's pretty nice this time of year though, right?
Yeah,
Max (01:34):
definitely.
Bill (01:35):
Cool.
All right.
So we're here because you guysjust started a flight school
a few months back, right?
All right.
So, so before we get into any of that, Um,I want to ask you guys, uh, one at a time.
Max, I'll start with you.
Okay.
Why aviation?
Why'd you get into aviation?
Max (01:54):
Yeah, definitely.
Well, I grew up with an amazing pilotgrandmother who ultimately raised me,
um, so we spent a lot of time at theTillamook Air Museum just bumming around
on the weekends trying to catch ridesand fancy old World War II warbirds.
And that just sparked a passion in me.
Um, I ended up going off to school,um, taking a break from flying.
(02:17):
And then once I graduated in 2020, Irealized this is where I wanted to be.
So I took the plunge and here I am.
Carl (02:27):
All right.
Carl, what about you?
All right, yeah.
Silly story, but a fun story, right?
So, uh, I went to collegefor music performance.
Jazz performance on the guitar.
I was kind of like followingwhat my dad was doing.
And I ended up movingout to Texas for a while.
And I was a part of theblues rock scene out there.
(02:48):
And to make ends meet, I Iwas an Uber driver, right?
Cause like my whole philosophy on life isjust like, try not to be behind a desk.
You know, I feel like that'ssort of driving sort of crazy.
And, um, you know, a big partof like the Uber driving route
would be in the mornings, right?
Four to 6am taking people to the airport.
(03:09):
And so I'm driving into Austin,uh, international airport and I
see, you know, just like a Boeingflying overhead and it's coming in
on approach and I'm sitting there.
And I'm thinking to myself,I'm like, bro, I could do that.
I'm already doing that.
Right.
I've got a couple of guys in thebackseat, taking them to the airport.
Might as well just likeget in an airplane.
So when the pandemic hit and it droppedthe bottom out of the music industry,
(03:32):
uh, I was like, all right, sweet.
It's time, time for a career change.
So I went back home, did an intro flight.
I was like, this is one of thebest things I've ever done.
Uh, and started research and flightschools figured that probably
Arizona was the place to be.
And that's how I metthese two guys, right?
Uh, they were both, uh, well, Max wasn'tMatt was my student for a hot second.
(03:54):
Um, that's how I originally methim and started flying out here.
And, you know, it was definitely oneof the best things I've ever done.
Bill (04:02):
Awesome.
So, um, you're basically wantingto be an Uber driver of the sky.
Carl (04:07):
Yeah, that was the entire intention.
I was like, they probably get paidbetter, you know, like a little
bit better than what I'm making.
The
Bill (04:15):
app is better.
Carl (04:16):
The app is, oh man, dude, let me tell you about the app.
The app is amazing.
The app can follow you across the country.
Bill (04:23):
Nice.
All right,
Matt (04:24):
Matt.
Uh, what about you?
Uh, for me, I, uh, I'm the fourthgeneration pilot in my family.
Um, fifth current pilot.
active pilot in the family.
So aviation just been partof my life growing up.
And one day I took a flight withmy uncle and he's like, you know,
you should, you should do this.
And I was like, there'sno way I can do this.
Um, struggled through highschool and thought aviation
(04:45):
was just a hard thing to do.
I'm not smart enough typething and then started flight
training and here I am today.
Bill (04:53):
Excellent.
All right, so you had people inyour family that were sort of
mentors and things like that.
Um, Max, did you have anybody like that?
Max (05:02):
Yeah, definitely.
Your grandma, right?
Yeah.
So, um, my grandmother.
And her father, uh, beforeher, were both pilots.
Um, she's not current anymore, butI've always just carried her passion
for flying and aviation with me.
Um, I remember being, I think, ten yearsold and reading through her father's war
(05:23):
diary, essentially, and just thinking,while it was horrible, the experiences
that they were going through, um,how amazing it was to be in the air.
Cool.
Bill (05:37):
All right.
Well, you guys came to Arizona andyou ended up meeting each other
and then starting a flight school.
How did that happen?
Matt (05:47):
Uh, well, originally, um, we were at the big pilot mill, uh,
ATP and Max and I ended up beingin the same CFI class together.
And we just kind of sat in the back andjust kind of started talking to each
other and BS and about aviation andtrying to build our lesson plans together.
And we just hit it off.
And then, um, like Carl mentionedearlier, I was, he was my CSI instructor.
(06:11):
So I went up on a couple CFIproficiency flights with him.
Just ended up really jiving withhis aura and everything, and we've
just been friends ever since.
Max (06:21):
Yeah, and I think that's one of those prime examples about how things just
fall into place like they're supposed to.
I remember that first dayat CFI Academy at ATP.
I'm not a real talkative guy, notvery outgoing, but Matt just turned
around and started talking to me.
And from then on we becamestudy buddies, we worked through
our lesson plans together.
And then he met Carl and somehowwe all wound up working at the same
(06:44):
flight school that wasn't ATP alittle bit longer down the line.
It just was miraculous really.
Bill (06:53):
All right, and how did you meet him, Carl?
Carl (06:56):
So, all right, you know, really, really met Matt originally as a student
and, uh, you know, he ended up moving on.
I didn't really think I'd seehim again until I walked into,
uh, yeah, the local flight schoolthat we all ended up working at.
And I was looking for a job, right?
So that was kind of an accident then.
(07:16):
Oh, 100%.
Yeah.
But it was, but it was great.
Like, you know, I walk into thelobby, I'm wearing a suit and I'm
like, Hey, like, Hey, what's up?
I'm like, I need a job.
He's like, all right, cool.
And I ended up getting hired there.
Uh, and then.
You know, they eventually, I wasrunning their CFI program and eventually
ended up making me their chief.
(07:37):
And me and Matt were becomingreally good friends at that point.
And we made him my assistant chief.
I'm like, sweet.
And then as things were progressingat that school, we realized that
there were other roles that neededto be really taken care of, right?
Cause it kind ofbottlenecked up to one guy.
So I was trying to spread it out.
And that's when we got Max on board.
At that point, the three of ushad really solidified as a team.
(08:00):
And when we determined that itwas time to start our own flight
school, it seemed like a very logicaltransition that it was going to be
the three of us kind of up against it.
Bill (08:09):
You know?
So I, I have to stop here for a minute.
Um, you guys got to tell me, So, howdid, uh, how did Carl pull off a suit?
This I would like to see.
Yeah.
Matt (08:21):
I missed out on that.
It was just, uh, cause I knew Carlin the, the ATP blue and I was like,
what the heck are you doing here, man?
I had shoes on, nice shoes onand not as Vans and I'm like,
well, look, you clean up good.
Yeah.
Bill (08:36):
Yeah.
So for listeners who don'tknow this, when I started.
Uh, my CFI training, Carl started meoff, and I can't picture him in a suit.
Matt (08:48):
I'm having a hard time with that.
Yeah, he came in the other daywearing his, uh, has get up from
and I was like, holy cow, man,you actually look, you look good.
Carl (08:58):
Nice.
Bill (09:04):
All right.
So why, why start a flight school?
Like why, why not just keepworking at other flight
schools that are in the Valley?
What, what is special about Legionnaire?
What are you trying to do?
Uh, that's maybe a little bit different.
Matt (09:19):
Yeah, I think the main thing that all of us had in in mind of what
we wanted to do when we came up withthis idea was just we saw a bunch of
the pros and we saw a bunch of thecons and every school that we had gone
to and work work for and trained at.
They just seemed like thetransparency was a huge thing.
Uh, there just wasn't enough transparencywith the training aspects of it.
(09:42):
And it was like, Oh yeah, just come on,you're doing fine, you're doing fine.
Well, we didn't really like that.
So it was like, all right, well,how can we make this better?
And then we were all sittinghaving a beer one night and
let's just start our own school.
Next thing you know,here, here Legionnaire is.
Carl (09:57):
Right.
Cause like such a big.
Deficiency that we're finding right now ispeople are, they're glued to procedures,
they're glued to things that they'relike, you know, they've been taught to do.
It's like, this is just how Ienter a traffic pattern, but why?
Right?
You know, and this is one of thebiggest complaints we hear with the
DPEs that we work with is that yougot, you got some guys who are acting
(10:17):
just effectively, robotically, right?
Automatic response.
With.
A lot of situations that, youknow, that they're fluid, even in
something as basic as landing, right?
We were having a conversation with oneof our students today and with like
some of the key fundamentals of justgetting an airplane on the ground.
And as you know, like an airplanehas to move forward in order to work.
(10:40):
Right.
So it's all about elevator effectiveness.
So how do you make theelevator more effective?
If you're trying to keep the nose gearoff the ground when you land, it's
like, dude, you gotta go faster, right?
You need the plane moving through the air.
So you're either losing too muchspeed or you need something else
to get the nose off the ground,which would just be adding power.
(11:00):
And it's these types of things thatwe're really trying to get our students
to think about so that when we putthem up against a DPE, they're like,
yeah, dude, this guy is an aviator.
He's not just someone whomet the requirements to
legally pass a check, right?
This guy is going to be good and safe.
And, you know, big picture, all of theseguys are going to be flying around our
(11:21):
friends and families for the most, right?
That's most, mostly what we'reThe pilot training nowadays
is, is going to the airlines.
So who do you want to make to put inthat flight, you know, like put in
that, uh, put in that flight deck.
Cause otherwise it could get really bad.
You know, as you probably know thatwe might end up talking about it, like
(11:43):
when things go bad, they go bad fast.
Right.
Um, and getting out of itisn't that hard if you, if you
really know what you're doing.
Yeah.
If
Matt (11:51):
you understand what's going on around you versus just, I got
to do this, this, this and this.
Well, why do you have to do that?
So that was a big thing that we saw whenwe were doing all of our stage checks
and mock check rides for students.
It's like you, you have theknowledge there, but you don't
have the knowledge there.
You just have the realunderstanding of what's going on.
Max (12:14):
Yeah.
And circling back to why we did this,uh, flight schools are naturally
a polarizing subject, right?
There are a lot of people who.
Um, felt like ATP worked for them, right?
But their process isfundamentally inflexible, right?
And that's why it doesn't workfor everyone, and that's why
people wind up washing out.
Um, the benefit of starting a smallerflight school is we're allowed that
(12:37):
flexibility to really tailor ourprocesses to the individual learner.
I mean, as CFI training, a huge partof the process of obtaining your CFI
certificate is Tailoring your teachingstyle to your individual student, right?
So it doesn't really make sense to buildit around one type of person when there's
(12:58):
so many types of people out there.
Cool.
Bill (13:02):
All right.
Sounds good.
So why Legionnaire?
How did that come about?
Carl (13:12):
Oh, all right.
So the types of planes thatwe're flying right now are
Beechcraft Musketeers, right?
And so it's kind of a pun, right?
We're Musketeers in a Legion.
So you're now a Legionnaireflying a Musketeer, right?
Clever.
Bill (13:33):
Um, all right.
And so how's it been going?
Like, what's it like tostart a flight school?
Matt (13:39):
Oh man, it's been tricky.
Yeah.
There's been some stuff that you,you think, you know, everything,
but you don't know everything.
And it's, it's every dayis a learning process.
Um, like Max was saying earlier,trying to build a, a syllabus.
All right.
Well, this, how, what, what works best?
Well, this worked good for me.
That works good for you.
And then trying to incorporate thatall from, let's just take all the
(14:01):
good stuff and put it in there.
And so it's like constantly remoldingit until we get that Perfect, uh,
syllabus and so, uh, plan, basically.
All
Carl (14:13):
right.
I don't know.
It's, it's tricky.
Well, I mean, anything'stricky in the beginning, right?
So, it's, it's kind of funny in the sensethat the easiest part about starting
your own flight school Flying, right?
Yeah.
Cause then you go back to everythingthat you, that you've been doing
and you just know it so well.
It's like, yeah, dude, the easiest partsabout this is just being in a plane.
(14:35):
Right.
I think, uh, for, for the three ofus, the thing that we're finding
is the most difficult part isjust the business aspect of it.
Right.
You know, it's just all the daily stuffthat you didn't really think about when
you had that overhead provided for you.
Right.
And now it's up to us tomake all that stuff happen.
Like finding DPS,
like
Bill (14:56):
what a bummer.
Tell me about it.
You know?
Carl (14:58):
Yeah.
Bill (14:59):
Yeah.
Okay.
I can totally see that.
So, um, now that you're gettingstarted, what's the best part
about running your own flightschool and what's the worst part.
Max (15:12):
It's definitely like the personal relationships that we have the
opportunity to form, um, our studentsare no longer molded into being just.
Cash flow for someone else.
I mean, we can actually spend theamount of time, um, dedicated to
our particular student, right?
Um, and we don't really have the samebig brother oversight looking over our
(15:37):
shoulder, um, forcing us to do things theway that they want things done, right?
There's that flexibility once again.
Bill (15:45):
So, what you're saying is basically, um, Yeah.
You have a philosophy on how you want todo it, and by running your own, you're
able to do it the way you want to do it.
Max (15:55):
Yeah, definitely.
Treat people likepeople, not like numbers.
Carl (16:00):
And like, you know, alright, who was saying it?
Was it your uncle?
It was, or bringing up thiscomment that like, you get a lot,
especially in Phoenix, right?
The majority of your cross country flighttraining is to like three airports.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
And like, I can't stand that.
Oh, it's ridiculous.
You know what I mean?
Like, yeah, sure.
Okay.
Marana from here is cross country,but if you only ever go there, do you
(16:24):
like really understand how to do it?
So like Max and I flewone of our students.
And, uh, Utah, you mean?
Utah and back, right?
And that's something that we cando since we're in charge of the
operations of our aircraft now, right?
As opposed to going to, youknow, whatever management and
be like, please let me do this.
Like, oh, it's too far,too much of liability.
It's like, dude, whatdo you mean liability?
(16:45):
Like, I'm a pilot.
I'm training this person to be a pilot.
You know, crossing stateborders is huge, right?
Now you have to really think aboutthings like fuel planning, weather
patterns, uh, change in pressure, allthat different stuff that you're not
going to get in such a localized area.
Yeah.
Time zones.
(17:06):
Yeah.
Bill (17:07):
Who has time zones?
It's all Zulu time, right?
Oh, that's there you go, baby.
Yeah.
So, I.
This is a pet peeve of mine.
I'm trying to, my son, my listeners knowthat my son, Merrick is a private pilot.
he, his plan has been to continueon, although he's in a bit of a I
(17:28):
don't know, a slow point right now,a holding pattern, there you go.
but, he was trying to build time and hewas doing these cross countries and I'm
going, bro, you've got to go other places.
Like this is not teaching you anything.
I don't remember exactly how manyhours I had at the time, but I think.
Um, I, it was probably back in 2010, Iprobably had like 150 hours and I decided
(17:53):
to take one of my club 182s and fly witha non pilot to Oshkosh for the week.
I learned some stuff on thatflight, as you can imagine.
And it was an incredible experienceand those are the types of experience
that I think pilots should have.
And it sounds like you guys kind of agree.
(18:13):
You probably don't know this, butI, I do a, I do a feature on the
podcast called beyond the checkride, and I do it with one of my
old co hosts from the pilot cast.
And, um, we're always talking about,we take a single topic that isn't
really covered as part of the, uh,Any curriculum for private pilot
and, we kind of go into that.
(18:34):
Those are the types of things likefueling your airplane on your own.
like how do you tie downat a strange airport?
you know, how do you plan your descentwhen you're on a real cross country?
How, you know, those types of things thatreally aren't in the, um, I, I almost
said PTS cause I'm old, but in the ACS.
(18:54):
Um, but those are the things youlearn when you start actually flying.
So how do you guys give those sortsof experiences to your students?
Matt (19:06):
we had one student that, uh, was going in for a CFI and just came from
one of those pilot mills that, Allthey knew was GPS and that was really
lacking the, uh, um, piloted skills.
And so it was like just taking thatGPS away from her and Carl made her
just fly it with a VFR sectional chart.
(19:27):
I mean, you can speak more on that.
Yeah,
Carl (19:29):
you know, I mean, but, but that's, that's the whole idea of it, right?
So it's kind of bringing backsome old school techniques, right?
Like I, you know, being able to lookat a map and just identifying it.
What's on it and where youare in relationship to it.
So like, you know, thisparticular student of mine, right.
(19:50):
You know, I kind of did a demo with heras we were flying back from Wickenburg,
which is just North of Phoenix.
And it was nighttime and I kind ofwanted to make sure that I could do it.
So I was like, all right, dude, I'mlike, I'm going to prove it to you.
Right.
No GPS at night, paper sectional.
I'm getting us back to Falcon.
Right.
And you start thinking about allthese different, you know, Different
(20:11):
ways of, uh, you know, just lookingaround and different types of cues.
Which is, that's, that's one of thebig things that people are lacking.
Like, the, the biggest example I gaveher was like, we're looking straight
ahead and like, do you see thislight, like way off past the prop?
She's like, yeah.
I'm like, do you see howit's skipping off the ground?
(20:31):
It's like reflecting.
She's like, yeah.
I'm like, okay, we're in Arizona.
What do you think that is?
Like, why do you think it'sskipping off the ground?
She's like, I don't know.
Yeah, it's not ice, butit's like ice is water.
Right?
So here you go, kid.
Right.
What's the only major body ofwater on this map right now
and is a Lake Pleasant, right?
(20:53):
Yeah.
And we're like sick.
All right, cool.
So we know right now we'refacing Lake Pleasant.
And we just got to keep going that way.
Look at your compass.
Which way are we going?
We're going Southwest, uh, Southeast.
Sweet.
All right.
So on this heading, right, oncewe get over that lake, what's
going to be another landmark andit's that sort of stuff, right?
Things where you can like reallytake the time to like, just
(21:13):
get them to work on something.
Um, that's going to be like wildly beyondthe comfort zone of most flight schools.
Like a lot of flight schools don'teven want you flying at night unless
it's for the night requirement.
Right.
You know,
Max (21:26):
yeah, when I was training at one of those big box flight
schools, not all too long ago, um,I was accomplishing one of my cross
country flights with my instructor.
I was working on my commercialrating and we flew up from Tucson
to Phoenix Mesa gateway, right?
And we got off a little bit late.
We got dinner, we got back to the plane.
Um, and the sun was starting toset, you know, we ate up more
(21:49):
time than we had anticipated.
Um, and unfortunately that school had arequirement or, um, yeah, a requirement
that we could not fly at night unlessit was for the purpose of satisfying
nighttime towards a rating, right?
Wow.
So we had to call their headquartersin Jacksonville, Florida to receive
(22:12):
approval to fly back to Tucsonright after the sunset, right?
I was, uh, an instrument ratedpilot at this point, working
on my commercial rating.
She was a very experienced CFI with1, 400 hours and we could not fly back
without the approval of somebody sittingin a cubicle in Jacksonville, Florida.
(22:33):
Does that make any sense?
No.
Bill (22:36):
Yeah, that's pretty wild.
I didn't know that.
Yeah.
I didn't, I didn't know thatkind of thing was going on.
Carl (22:41):
I mean, that's just the stuff that you get at the flight
schools that are really justproducing pilots, like based on FAA.
minimum standards.
You know what I mean?
Uh, like all the, all the fast trackstuff, which there's nothing wrong with
a fast track program per se, right?
What ends up going wrong is, uh, you geta lot of the blind, lean the blind, right?
(23:03):
So you get, yeah, they'll, they'll,they'll, they usually hired house, which
is like pretty typical for like any place.
Right.
But you get a weaker instructor whoisn't comfortable flying at night.
Right.
They produce a pilot that isn'tcomfortable flying at night.
That pilot becomes a flight instructor.
Now, their student, right, isn't, isprobably even less comfortable flying
(23:26):
at night, having learned from a personwho is uncomfortable flying at night.
Right?
And it just like startssnowballing on itself.
Max (23:32):
And eventually they get to their 1, 500 hours and all of a
sudden they're an airline pilot who'snot comfortable flying at night.
That's
Carl (23:40):
scary.
Right.
Or, I mean, at least withoutthe use of autopilot.
Right.
And it's like, right.
Cause you know, what do you, whatdo you do if the autopilot fails?
The plane will be fine.
The plane will be perfectly fine.
You just got to use trim now.
Right.
Easy solutions.
But think about like the panicand the shock factor that goes
(24:00):
into it and how much people startgetting wrapped up in their heads
cause they're just not used to it.
Right.
Yeah.
I
mean, that's why I'm a, I'm a big proponent of like
teaching people in six packs.
I would love to have a glasscockpit, don't get me wrong.
But flying in a six pack just makes youfly the plane as an extension of yourself.
Bill (24:17):
Well, the, the avionics can be a huge distraction.
Yeah.
And I mean, even with a sixpack, sometimes you have a hard
time getting a student to lookoutside the airplane, right?
But you put a giant video gamescreen in front of them, and
it's going to be way worse.
Especially for younger pilots oryounger students who have grown
(24:38):
up in a video game age, right?
So, yeah, for sure, those are hugedistractions, and it's hard to cover
them up with a small sticky note.
Oh yeah, without like takingthe whole thing out, you know?
Carl (24:52):
Yeah, I think a big part of our, uh, idea here is try to, try to break
all the crutches that we've seen, right?
You know?
I love it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause you just don't need it.
You don't need it.
I mean like, it's, I don't knowdude, I feel like flying a little
plane is like riding a motorcycle.
Which you know.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
And you gotta like, you gotta makethat bike do what you want it to
(25:13):
do and not the other way around.
Cause once it goes the other wayaround, stuff starts getting weird.
Like.
For
Max (25:18):
sure.
You know.
And one last thing to note.
Something to consider with thosebigger box flight schools is the
last filter in all of their decisionmaking from the headquarters on
down to the flight instructor.
is liability, right?
That's the last thing they consider.
There is excess liability when theysend a certified flight instructor and a
(25:40):
commercial student out on a cross countryat night when they don't need to, right?
That's money that could be potentiallypulled out of their pockets.
And we don't have that filter.
I mean, not to the same extent, at least,obviously we don't want our planes broken.
We don't want to put themin an unsafe condition.
We would never do that.
But there's Necessity and there'sexcess, um, risk consideration, right?
Carl (26:05):
Right.
You know, just from like a purely monetarystandpoint, like that's not what we're
concerned about with our risk mitigation.
You know, it's like,yeah, dude, it's fine.
We'll spend a little extra money togive you a really valuable experience.
Right.
Like as best as we can,you know what I mean?
Bill (26:21):
Right.
Well, that's, uh, that'spretty cool because, I, right.
In my, you know, my time, my 15 years inaviation, I've seen it change quite a bit.
Back when I was doing my private, we, wedid more of that, at least where I trained
at, at Chandler Air Service back then.
It's a totally different place now,different management and everything,
(26:42):
but, and I'm sure they're great.
I'm not saying anything bad aboutthem, but, it was, it was really
like new experiences and we weresupposed to go get new experiences.
And I was, you know, my long crosscountries and my, my cross countries,
my solo cross countries, I shouldsay, we're all into the mountains in
the summer, which, I think are goodexperiences, you know, as long as you're
(27:05):
being taught to expect what's going tohappen in high density altitude and,
how much extra runway you're goingto need and the climb performance.
And I mean, these are things thatI think, does a pilot good, to
experience and experience on theirown sometimes when they're the PIC,
even before they get their ticket.
So I love, I love thatyou guys are doing that.
Matt (27:25):
Most definitely.
I don't think I really thoughtthat I could fly an airplane
until I left from Chandler.
And flew all the way to Dallassolo in a single and in the
Musketeer and eight zero Quebec.
And I was like, Once I landedthere on a grass strip, never
landed on a grass strip before.
It was like, man, I actually justcircumnavigated half the United States
with a VOR and stuff that that'skind of what we want to bring in back
(27:49):
into the training environment is likewhat Carl was saying earlier, is just
breaking that, those crutches and.
to the nitty gritty of making a decisionand being able to determine whether
or not you're making the correctdecision and how to perform that.
Bill (28:04):
All right.
So let's get into some, uh, let'sget into some controversy because
most of your students, most ofyour students are probably, You
know, headed to the airlines.
it seems to be, you know, a lot ofthe students, learning to fly right
now are not planning on going justinto GA, but some are, but a lot
are going to the airlines, right?
How, how do you think this typeof training, uh, by changing your
(28:27):
model, how do you think that'sgoing to affect positive or negative
pilots who end up in the airlines?
and On the other side of that coin,how does training to the ACS and kind
of, you know, doing it the pilot millway, if you will, how do you think
(28:48):
that, you know, contributes to thenegative side of going to the airlines?
Can you guys talk about that a little bit?
Carl (28:58):
Yeah.
Right.
All right.
So I think.
A major mindset of a lot of thesestudents is going to the airlines.
I'm going to be flyinga super sophisticated.
Automated plane, right?
You know, and like speaking fromexperience right now, like the main
part of your job is just taxi takeoffand landing, but they take that
(29:19):
mindset with them into, uh, liketheir regular everyday training.
I've got like one of my CFIstudents want to bash my head
against the wall is like here.
Tell me about VORs and it's like, give melike this, like a little spiel about it.
And he's like, but like,realistically, I would just use a GPS.
I'm like, yeah, dude, I get it.
(29:40):
I get it, right.
Yeah.
You would realistically use a GPS,but we're not gonna, you know, there
are very, there's a very slim chanceyou would have to rely on a VOR, but
you gotta know how to do it, right.
And you gotta be able to know howto do it well and figure it out.
If you have nothing, right.
You know what I mean?
Bill (30:00):
So, most people don't understand that GPS signals from the
satellites are barely above the noise.
These, you know, there's these massivelike solid state filters on these GPS
to even get the signal out of the noise.
Very easy to jam.
So So, And very easy to lose that.
(30:22):
And we've become so accustomed toalways having it, that we think it's
always going to be there, but it'sreally not that far fetched to think
that there'll be a time where you'reup flying and GPS is not accurate.
Oh yeah.
And Matt and I
Max (30:36):
experienced that.
I, when we were working at ourlast flight school, we had the
opportunity to ferry two PiperArcher threes from Tulsa, Oklahoma to
Falcon field here in Mesa, Arizona.
Right.
And it was a very long flight to do inone day, and we had to do it in one day
for reasons we'll probably get into later.
But, we were passing through West Texas,near White Sands, and very hot military
(31:00):
area, and they had jammed all of the GPSs.
And we heard, uh, uh, what was it?
Matt (31:06):
ATP was like, they were telling them to do a departure,
and they're like, well, I can't.
And They were like, well, careertrack, you got to do this.
You'd fly the VOR.
And they're like, well, my GPS is out.
And it's like, what the heck?
And yeah, then when we landed in Deming,um, there were two other planes that
landed in front of us, a Cirrus anda, uh, one 82, I believe, and both
(31:29):
of them grabbed their POHs and wentinto the boardroom and I was like,
I wonder what those guys are doing.
So I went in there andtalked to him for a second.
And they're like, yeah, our GPS, GPSsweren't working, our autopilot wouldn't
work, and I just bought this plane,we're flying back to California, and
now it's not working, and I'm like,yeah, it's not, you're not going to
find anything in there, they, they jamGPSs over here in the white sands all
(31:49):
the time, and he's like, oh, I thoughtsomething was wrong with my airplane.
They're just, everyone'sjust so reliant on.
The new stuff.
Okay,
Bill (31:57):
I rest my case.
Carl (31:58):
Right, yeah.
I mean, we're all onthe same page for sure.
And I think, I think it's studentsare going in with the wrong
attitude as a result, right?
They're trying to make it tothe stage where like, yeah, you
become a glorified button pusher.
Which, to be fair, to be like completelyfair to like all the airline pilots
out there, it's not all it is.
Yeah.
Like, you know.
(32:19):
You're there
Bill (32:19):
for the emergencies too.
Carl (32:20):
Well, yeah.
Yeah.
But like, you know.
I mean, just, just remember this, like,next time it's super bumpy coming into
land, there is some poor 30 year old guysweating it out, like, death gripping
the controls trying to hold plane level.
You know what I mean?
Like, they're probably not taking the GP,like, the autopilot all the way in, right?
Just
Bill (32:40):
like you were in flight school.
Just like
Carl (32:42):
you were in flight school.
Some
Bill (32:44):
things don't change, right?
Carl (32:46):
Right, and like, now the thing with the ACS is, it's the FAA's way to try
to standardize and present a template.
To be tested on, right?
People are testing to the ACS.
So what they're trying to do isthey're trying to create every
maneuver in every scenario basedon a set of like given parameters,
because that is the legal documentthat they're supposed to be tested on.
(33:08):
And I think what kind of like whatwe were alluding to earlier in the
conversation is, is just preventingpeople from getting like a really good.
experience in a lot of ways, right?
What is it for commercial?
A hundred hours of cross country?
Uh, I think so.
I'll top of my head.
Yeah, we should know.
(33:30):
I mean, but, but point being right, youcan fulfill that by going very short.
Consistent distances, right?
But it's not real cross country.
You, you're legally required to do one300 nautical mile cross country, but
that's, that's it, you know what I mean?
Like how much do you reallylearn from doing anything once?
Yeah, it's just like, you know,they're, they're doing their best, but
(33:52):
like, if you, if that is the trainingdocument that you're teaching to,
you're teaching people how to get outof very specific situations, right?
And you gotta, you gottastart like thinking about.
You know, like the more broad sortof strokes, you know what I mean?
Like, well, I mean, like, here you go.
What do you do if youroil temperature spikes?
(34:14):
Do you know what's going on?
I don't entirely know what's going on.
I have an idea of whereI would start though.
Right.
And okay, here we go.
Right.
Matt, you know, this story betterthan I do, but, uh, uh, the, uh,
the Oxford Atlanta on the road.
You know what I'm talking about?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
You know what I mean?
Not too long ago.
Like a ridiculous situation right here.
(34:35):
Yeah, just give them the
Matt (34:36):
synopsis.
Out by, out by my house and likea bunch of my neighbors text me,
did you try to land at your house?
And I was like, no, I didn't.
Cut my commute down, but it wasn't me.
And um, they said that they hadsmelled electrical fire or fire.
So they shut it down and theylanded on a two lane highway
(34:56):
out in the south practice area.
And school buses had to diveoff the road and they landed.
And after, after they startedinvestigating it, uh, from my
knowledge, from what I was reading isthat there was no fire or anything.
But even then it's like, okay, what wouldyou do if you got an electrical fire?
Well, I'm going to start pullingbreakers and shut the master off and
(35:16):
I'm going to continue on to Gateway.
Bill (35:18):
Fly to an airport.
Yeah.
With all
Matt (35:20):
the electrical system off.
Exactly.
And so it's, but they were just followingthe SOPs and this is what I got to do.
I'm going to go here.
And I got into a debate with, uh, anotherone of the CFI students, and I said,
well, what would you do in that scenario?
Well, I probably would'vedone the same thing.
And I was like, why is that?
You wouldn't troubleshoot in a
Bill (35:38):
helicopter,
Matt (35:39):
right?
But we're relating itback to the airplanes.
And he was, uh, is like, I'd probablydo the same thing because that's the
procedure out there and he was militaryand they're, you're trained in the
military to follow the procedures.
And so it's like, okay, well.
Let's break that and then I'dexplain my my thoughts on it.
He was like, yeah, you're probably rightI would probably do the same thing.
(36:01):
I would want my Studentsto think that way.
So that's kind of what we're tryingto hope to bring to it because they
Max (36:09):
And for anybody that uses the ACS as a crutch Right here on the first page
task a in regards to risk management Wehave the applicant is able to identify,
assess, and mitigate risks associatedwith proficiency versus currency, right?
And that's what all of thesearguments come down to.
You can be a current pilot with a privatepilot rating, who does not know or
(36:31):
understand how to handle a situation whereyou smell smoke in the cockpit, right?
Whose first reaction is to landon a two way highway and not only
risk their lives, but the lives ofthe kids in the school bus, right?
Carl (36:43):
Right.
Yeah, I mean, like, I think it isimportant to remember that these
procedures are in place, like,if it is a really obvious thing.
Procedures are also a goodplace to start, right?
But, you gotta, you gotta be, yougotta be, you gotta be a pilot, right?
At some point, just be like,alright, here we go, right?
(37:04):
First of all, if I smellelectrical smoke, what could it
possibly be coming from, right?
And that's why, you know,you shut down everything.
That's the thing.
But if you're really knowledgeableabout what's going on, it's like,
yeah, dude, if I shut down everything,but the mixture's in and the mags are
still on, the plane still runs, right?
And like, how long does it take meto get from, it was basically like
(37:25):
Johnson Ranch area to Gateway, right?
Five minutes, right?
You know, so unless you see like actualfire licking up by your feet, go forward.
You know what I mean?
Right, right, right.
Uh, just, you know, just followyour lost comms procedures, make
a safe decision, land on a runway,call ATC afterwards, right?
Because I think that is another thing, isa lot of people live in this world where
(37:47):
they're just afraid to get in trouble.
It's like, stop, right?
You know, it's probably betterto be thinking about the ATC
system with pilots more as a team.
You know what I mean?
Like, they're not gonna,they're not gonna, you know,
Yeah, for sure.
Matt (38:06):
I mean, I bring up the, I got a phone number, um, and I'd
tell all my students that I said,it's, don't be afraid of them.
They're there to help us.
Um, don't get in the mindsetthat we work for them.
They work for us.
They're just helping.
They're just help clearing the area.
We're the ones
Bill (38:22):
with the butts on the line.
Right.
Yeah.
Right.
Matt (38:24):
Yeah.
When I landed on the, I was, I was out atChandler and coming into land from Dallas
in my mind, I'm like, all right, cool.
I'm going to land on 22 rightfrom Deming, New Mexico.
I just kept saying that in myhead, I'm cleared to land 22 right.
Cause that's where the plane tiesdown in the ramp and he cleared
me to land 22 left and I was like,yeah, cleared to land 22 right.
(38:45):
And came in, landed, and he's like,Hey, I got a phone number for you.
And I was like, Oh my gosh, yeah.
My heart sunk, and I waslike, I just lost my cert.
Everything's done.
I called him up, and he's like, Yeah,do you know why I gave you the number?
I said no, but we talked about it,and he said, You landed on the wrong
runway, you're cleared to land 22 left, and you landed 2 2 right.
Luckily, there was nobody there.
(39:06):
I was the only plane coming in.
And we talked about it for asecond, and I said, well, I, I'm
pretty sure I said 2 2 right.
And he said, well, let me checkthe tapes, and he came back, and
he said, yeah, we both missed it.
So, it's a learning experience, andthat's what the FAA really, at the
end of the day, wants you to Right.
Is, don't be afraid to makea mistake, cause you're just,
you gotta learn from it.
Yep.
Yeah.
(39:26):
Yeah.
Bill (39:27):
Yep.
All right, cool.
So we've already talked a littlebit about it, but you guys know
I just, um, am a brand new CFI.
Congratulations.
So what are, what are some ofthe things I can look forward to?
Give me some of your best.
Instructor, or when youwere a student, stories.
(39:50):
Uh, I got a
Carl (39:51):
bunch.
Bill (39:52):
Alright, alright, alright,
Carl (39:53):
here we go.
Bill (39:54):
And we'll, you know, we'll leave names out to protect
the innocent or the guilty.
Carl (39:59):
Alright, here we go.
I'll tell you the quick storyof how I ended up, uh, working
with these guys at our 61 school.
My departure from ATP.
Awesome.
It was awesome.
Right?
So, uh, I went a littletoo hard on a maneuver.
Uh, so unusual attitudes.
I, I think I've, I've told you the story.
Yeah.
(40:19):
Right.
I do remember.
You know, the short and simple of it was,um, you know, when I was working as a,
You know, uh, a CFI instructor, right?
Teaching people to be CFIs at ATP.
And, you know, I wanted to give someonea genuine shock factor because it happens
from time to time, like, you know, I'vebeen unintentionally spun by a student
(40:42):
and that's a genuine shock factor.
You're like, Oh, okay, here we go.
We're in a situation.
And so, you know, one thing.
That, you know, I don't know if I'vetold you, but just remember your
students are incredibly literal, right?
And so you have to speak inan incredibly literal way.
(41:02):
And I was demonstrating that with thisguy and I was like, all right, cool.
Show me how to trim the plane.
And he's like, okay.
So I'm like, all right,so what's the idea, right?
Like the, the plane feels like it's a.
Fail the plane feels likeit's starting to pitch up.
What do I do?
He's like, oh, you know, he'sjust like, uh, oh, no Yeah, the
plane feels like it's pitch day.
He's like, yeah, so give it someuptrip now We're in a Cessna 172 the
(41:23):
trim wheel right if you spin it fromthe floor That's nose down, right?
And so I'm like, Oh, I'mgonna be a little silly guy.
Okay, sure.
I'll give it some up trim.
Right.
And so I spin the wheel up andI know he's not looking at me.
So I'm like six.
So this is another good, likeyou got to monitor your student.
You got to like, and you
Bill (41:41):
were sort of acting as the student.
Yeah,
Carl (41:44):
it's just like playing around.
Right.
Uh, pretending to be the student.
Which, you know, PSA to all flightinstructors out there, right?
You gotta watch like everythingyour student does, no matter
their experience level, right?
The guy who spun me was acommercial student on his
commercial mock truck ride, right?
Full on spin dope.
Anyway.
So this kid, uh, I startedspinning the trim wheel up
(42:04):
and I'm like, all right, cool.
Now I'm holding the plane like.
Level and I'm doing a pretty good jobbecause we're like straight level, right?
You've been
Bill (42:11):
going to the gym.
Yeah, you know, yeah,
Carl (42:14):
it's just absolutely juiced up and I turn to him like alright, so how do I
know when when the plane's trimmed out?
He's like, well, you should be able tolet go of the yoke and the plane will
stay where it is I'm like, oh cool.
So I did right and the plane proceedsto incredibly dramatic nose dive.
Just BAM!
Right, straight down.
And, uh, you know, his eyes go wide,and I just get this giant grin,
(42:38):
and we pull up, uh, and, you know,he's like, ah, man, that was crazy.
I was like, oh, yeah.
And, uh, we, we went negativeG's and I looked in the back and
there's a huge crack in the window.
I'm like, Oh, right.
Cause in the dive, everything that was onthe ground went to the ceiling, including
the chalks in the back of the airplane.
Right.
Uh, which.
(42:59):
I mean, big learningexperience for me, right?
Obviously don't do that.
Or, you know, or
Bill (43:07):
tie everything down.
Carl (43:08):
That's the real, that's the real thing, right?
Because if I just secured everythingin the aircraft, you know, uh,
probably wouldn't have lost myjob, but then I would have never
really linked up with these guys.
So I'm like, yeah, okay.
You know, I'm kind of happy I did
Max (43:21):
that.
Carl (43:22):
I didn't like in the long run.
Max (43:24):
For all those, uh, future Legionnaire students here.
We do have cargo nets in, uh, the baggagecompartment of the musketeers, and that
Matt (43:33):
We learned from previous mistakes.
Hey, that's what
Bill (43:37):
it's all
Matt (43:37):
about, right?
Yeah,
Bill (43:38):
it's a learning experience.
It's always learning.
Always learning.
Awesome.
Anybody else got a goodstory they want to tell?
Matt (43:44):
Um, I got one just from being a student.
Um, so I got my license andthen never thought I would do
anything in the aviation industry.
Just wanted to be a good pilot.
because my whole family was a pilot.
That's how I
Bill (43:56):
started too.
And then here I am with CFI.
Matt (43:58):
Right.
And, um, so got the, the idea oneday to go to flight school and, uh,
went to ATP and loved my instructor.
We still talk all the time.
She's now flying for Airlines.
And, um, so we still have a reallygood relationship, but, um, It was
(44:19):
on one of my instrument flights,one of my first flights with her.
And I had about 250, 260 hoursat the time, because I did a
lot of just flying on my own.
And she, I was her first student and, uh,we got done after the flight and she was,
very upset with me and got out of theplane and got her stuff and like looked at
(44:41):
me and she goes you're a phenomenal stickand rudder but you're a shitty pilot and
flipped her hair at me and walked away andI was like what the heck does that mean?
And um, Didn't, didn'tsign my log book that day.
It didn't, didn't even debrief me.
Nothing.
She just let me sit on that fora day and came back the next day.
And she's like, I was like,what was up with that?
(45:02):
And she's like, you don't knowhow to hold your altitude.
You don't know how to hold a heading.
Cause I had 250 plus hours of me justbeing a VFR pilot, flying however I
wanted, doing whatever I wanted to do.
The weather anymore.
That, that gets, I look outside.
Um, and so that was likea big eye opener for me.
It was like, Oh, okay.
(45:23):
I got to take this serious.
And that was a, a big thing forme because at the time I was like,
I don't need to listen to you.
I have more hours thanyou and type of thing.
So yeah, it was a humbling moment for me.
Oh, that's cool.
Bill (45:38):
And there's always something we can learn from anybody.
Max (45:42):
And a piece of advice for all those future flight instructors out
there, you vomited on at some point.
So I have a fun story about that one.
Yeah.
I had a student who, for thefirst six flights in his aviation
journey, vomited every time.
The first time he didn't have abarf bag, but headset bag didn't
make it out of that venture.
(46:03):
So who has to clean that up?
Matt (46:06):
Maintenance.
Max (46:09):
We taxied back in and after that first flight, he had gotten most of it out
of the little like five by five window,um, on the side of the Piper Cherokee
and painted a nice racing stripe down it.
Um, and we were taxing in and the flightschool that I worked at at the time
had a really, really great ramp guy.
Um, and I could just see hisface drop as we rolled in.
(46:31):
Um, we got out of the plane and I insistedthat he let my student and I clean it up.
But he was very, well, moreinsistent than I was that he had
to clean it because it was his job.
He was one of those veryliteral folks out there.
But, um, you know, later on down theline, after that had happened a few times,
we got to the point where I had to sitdown with the student and say, Hey, man.
(46:55):
This isn't going to work for you.
This isn't going to be a career for you.
If you can't hold your luncheon fora one and a half hour flight, right?
Next lesson, we're going up.
I'm doing all of the flying and we'regoing to do commercial maneuvers.
We're going to do lazy eights,steep turns, 55 degree bank.
Wait, wait, wait.
He was a commercial pilot.
(47:16):
No, he was a private pilot,but this was my plan, right?
So we go up, we do all this stuff.
He's completely fine.
The whole flight never comes back.
So I don't know if I had, uh, you know,happened upon an ingenious idea and fix
this guy's permanent motion sicknessor what, but he never threw up again.
(47:37):
And what do you think did it?
I pushed him past his limits, right?
Oh, you were doing
Bill (47:43):
maneuvers that you, that you hadn't done before.
You're doing maneuvers that gotyou more over more up and down.
Yeah, exactly.
All right.
Carl (47:49):
Right.
I mean, like, yeah, anxiety
Matt (47:52):
puke.
Cause that's what a lot of studentsjust come in and they just so anxious
and, Oh man, what do I got to do?
And I know I had one, on hisfirst flight, did the same thing.
And I was like, Oh my gosh, don't do this.
I
Carl (48:09):
think, uh, in, in terms of that, you know, as you get your first student,
like if you get a zero, zero time student,Try to take them up like early in the
morning or kind of in the evening,especially when like the air is smooth.
When it's
Bill (48:21):
smooth,
Carl (48:22):
yeah.
But what you got to remember inthe beginning, because motion
sickness is just really, really bad.
Um, like it's a fight betweenwhat you are visually seeing
and what your body's feeling.
So when you're new person in a newairplane, you're gonna, at some
point you're going to feel sick.
And then one comes down to you, howwell you can hold it in, but doing
(48:42):
things like what Max was doing,which helps fix their sight picture.
Of like, what they're feelingand what they're seeing.
Once your brain reckon, like,starts to rectify what it is,
the motion sickness goes away.
Yeah.
Right?
And so, you know, just doing, doingsome easy stuff in the beginning.
Uh, and I remember when I wasfirst learning, I got the most
motion sick coming into the land.
(49:03):
Really?
Yeah, for me it was, it was theuh, scale change, and like how fast
the scale changed, and then likewhat you're feeling, you know, as
you're coming in, you're like, whoa.
Uh, I got over that in a couple offlights though, but again, it was once,
once your body gets used to it, you'regoing to feel a lot better, or your
(49:23):
students will feel a lot better, you know?
Bill (49:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cool.
All right.
Well, guys, good luckwith the flight school.
Really appreciate the, uh, theopportunity to sit down and talk to you.
It's fun to hear the stories.
Thanks
Max (49:36):
for having us
Bill (49:36):
on.
Max (49:36):
Yeah, thank you.
Bill (49:38):
Absolutely.
All right.
Thanks.
We'll talk to you soon.
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Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
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Karoline Borega married a man of honor – a respected Colorado Springs Police officer. She knew there would be sacrifices to accommodate her husband’s career. But she had no idea that he was using his badge to fool everyone. This season, we expose a man who swore two sacred oaths—one to his badge, one to his bride—and broke them both. We follow Karoline as she questions everything she thought she knew about her partner of over 20 years. And make sure to check out Seasons 1-3 of Betrayal, along with Betrayal Weekly Season 1.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.