SPC#82 - Making a List and Checking it Twice...or Never. - The Student Pilot Cast

Episode Transcript
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Bill Williams's video recording (00:00):
Welcome back SPC listeners and Merry Christmas.
This one's coming to you on Christmas day.
So enjoy.
You ever wonder what that list everyonetalks about around Christmas time is?
Well, stay with me to find out in episode82 of the student pilot cast, making
a list and checking it twice or never.

(01:03):
So this is a fun one and a topicthat I'm a little passionate about.
Today's episode is another beyondthe check ride with Kent Shook.
And we'll be talking about,you guessed it, checklists.
Everyone was taught how importantchecklists can be, of course.
But what happens in the realworld beyond the checkride?
I really do believe that goodchecklists and good checklist habits

(01:26):
for a pilot can be literal lifesavers.
But what makes a good checklist?
And how can bad checklists be moredangerous than no checklist at all?
Well, one way is to teach apilot bad checklist habits, but
we'll get into some of that here.
So without further ado, here's the latestbeyond the check ride segment with Kent.

Bill (01:51):
All right.
Welcome back everybody toanother beyond the check ride.
I'm here again with Kent Shook.
Are we doing all right, Kent?

Kent (01:59):
We're doing great.

Bill (02:00):
Awesome.

Kent (02:01):
I can talk about flying is a great
day.

Bill (02:04):
Always is.
All right.
So we're coming back at you withanother beyond the check ride.
What have you got for us today?

Kent (02:14):
We are going to talk about checklists.

Bill (02:17):
Oh, I love this topic.

Kent (02:19):
it's an interesting topic because there are opinions all
over the board on this one.
you know, some people say,well, I don't need a checklist.
Some people say you must use a checklist.
Absolutely.
Every time some people havemnemonics that they like to use
in certain situations instead.
And, you know, I, I've got to say I'veprobably been all of the above at one

(02:44):
point or another, but, the first time Ireally started thinking, A little more
about checklists and the, the thing thatgot me off of being a checklist hater
was about 14 years ago after I had gottenmy commercial multi, which, know, I
wasn't planning on ever having a job inaviation at that point, but I figured,

(03:08):
you know, You know, if the right thingcomes along, I don't want to have to
turn it down because I don't have the
right ratings for it.
So

Bill (03:14):
Plus, more training's never a bad thing.

Kent (03:18):
absolutely, I love to fly and, you know, getting more
ratings lets you fly more stuff.
So, um, anyway, it only took, I guessit was about a year and a half after I
got my commercial multi before I had myfirst right place, right time situation.
And I got to fly right seat in a Hawker,um, get a little jet time in the log book.

(03:44):
and that was really cool.
It was a great experience.
you know, I had to spend a bunchof time with the PIC on the ground
beforehand learning about what I wasgoing to need to do and all that.
And then, you know, Uh, the flightitself was only about an hour.
but one of the things that really madean impression on me was the checklists in
that airplane, because I was used to just.

(04:06):
your standard piston GA checklists.
And now, uh, the lens of hindsight, Ican see just how bad GA checklists are.
I mean, they're awful,

Bill (04:20):
Yeah,

Kent (04:21):
really,
awful.

Bill (04:22):
yep.

Kent (04:23):
says we want everybody to use checklists and To be honest, of all the
people that I have flown with in, youknow, the outside of the professional
world, let's say, all the people who arerecreational GA flyers, I think maybe

(04:44):
only two or three were actually likelegitimate religious checklist users.
And I think this is why is our
checklists are terrible.

Bill (04:55):
Yeah, it still kind of shocks me, but it's probably
because I'm spending so much timein a training environment lately.
You know, at flight schoolsand things like that.
Um, but yeah, that's,that's a little shocking.
They, they are really bad.
The things, the things I can't standabout most GA checklists, especially

(05:17):
if they follow the, you know,the old POHs, even the new ones,
sometimes there's a lot of things inthere that are completely useless.
And then some things that,and so it just clutters it up.
It makes it more difficult toremember to do them because
you're not finding value in them.
You know,

Kent (05:37):
Bingo.

Bill (05:37):
you're, kind of going through it and you're like, this is just such a waste and
then there may be some things and you'llprobably talk about this later, but then
there's some things that you personallyknow you really need on the checklist
because maybe it's something that you'rehaving trouble remembering with your
flows, you know, and you want to make sureyou go back and check those, but it's not

(05:59):
going to be in a standard GA checklist.
You know, so, yeah, I know what you mean.
I mean, some of these checklists,they're just cluttered.
They're full of junk.
They've got things.
I religiously use them, which means thatI use a checklist maybe 60 percent of the

(06:20):
time, and I call that religious usage.
And it's not that I'm trying not to.
I'm talking about, I try touse one every phase of flight,
but I skip a lot of times.
And so I feel like I'm doing prettywell if I use it 60 time or 60 percent
of the time for each phase of flight.

(06:41):
I'm always doing my flows, butevery once in a while, I'll.
Get on the ground and if I'min a low wing and I'll realize.
Ooh, I never turned on the, the electricfuel pump, you know, I accidentally
skipped it, so I know I need them.
And so I try to use them allthe time, which means I use them
about 60 percent of the time.

Kent (07:03):
So think of an instance recently in which you did not use
a checklist and think about, okay,why didn't you use the checklist?

Bill (07:17):
Um,
well, I want to say, in an instance, I'mthinking of right now, a few weeks ago,
when I, realized that I hadn't done, youknow, I hadn't gone through the checklist.
This wasn't the time where I hadforgotten to do anything, but I
realized, oh, man, I didn't do it.
And the reason I realized Ididn't use it was because, you

(07:41):
know, I had somebody there.
It was my son, I had my son with meand I was going, Oh, man, I should be
really making sure I use this checklist,as setting an example, basically, and
I, I want to say the reason I didn'tuse it is because I just forgot I was
busy with something that I was doing.

(08:02):
But if I'm honest.
maybe it was cause I didn't feellike I needed it at that point.

Kent (08:11):
Yep.
I can totally see that.
And you know, you just made me thinkof a, one of the just most fun flights
I ever had, not because it was, uh,you know, something mind boggling,
but just because it was simple.
I was up at a grass strip in theupper peninsula of Michigan, up North.

(08:32):
was there with a bunch offriends for Labor Day weekend.
if they're listening,they know who you are.
Hi guys.
great little fly in and you know, webasically, we'll go up there and, We'll
hop on ATVs and drive around in the woodson old fire trails and stuff like that.

(08:54):
And it's just a great time.
But this particular day, you know, it wastoward the end of the day, we had already,
you know, grilled out for lunch and beendoing all kinds of random up North stuff.
we were coming out of the woods onthe ATVs approaching the airport.
And we stopped at an intersection that wasabout two blocks away from the airport.

(09:16):
I mean, that's pretty much acrosstown in that place, but we all kind
of looked at the sun, which wasgetting low in the Western sky.
And it was like probablya half hour till sunset.
And someone said, what should we do now?
And kind of look at thesun and I go, Let's go fly.

(09:38):
So we all just go over to theairport and we had just been flying
before and there's nobody around.
And there's, I mean, at the timethere wasn't any cell phone signal.
So like you couldn't callflight service for a briefing.
There's no internet.
You know, this is probably evenbefore for flight existed anyway.
but.
Like I said, we had already beenflying, so no pre flights to

(10:00):
do, no flight service to call.
It was literally justhop in the plane and go.
so it was just this, you know, calmingthing to just jump in the plane and go.
and it was just a wonderful flightbecause they're Wasn't that much to it.
It was just super simple.

(10:21):
And
you know, when you go down thesechecklists, they're just not, they
make it as complicated as they can.
I feel like written by
lawyers and all that, you know,

Bill (10:33):
Right.
Right.

Kent (10:35):
I don't know if they're to make it look cool or if they think that if
they don't make you check every littlething five times that they're going to
be open to liability of some sort or,you know, a lot of them are step by step
instructions on how to fly and don't need
that, know,

Bill (10:55):
Yes.

Kent (10:56):
coming in as a brand new student, maybe you need every item on that 172
checklist, but I would say even um,handful of flights in, you know, one
of my examples that I love to, brag onCessna about is if you look in a Cessna
172 pre flight checklist, it says, master,on, fuel gauges, check, master, off.

(11:21):
Like how about justput fuel gauges, check.
And if they say empty and you looked inthe wing and it was full of fuel, maybe
go, Oh yeah, those are electric gauges.
I need to turn the master on for a second.
So as a result of things like that,

(11:44):
Um,

Bill (11:44):
And

Kent (11:45):
the Hawker, I

Bill (11:46):
I don't, I don't mean to interrupt Kent, but I got to ask,
and how many times do I need to checkthat the trim is set for takeoff?

Kent (11:56):
18,
but no, after flying the Hawker, wentback and I looked at, uh, you know, the
checklists are all a little different.
I feel like there were more checklistsbefore takeoff in the Hawker, but
they were all just like half adozen killer items and that's it.

(12:20):
And so I went back and looked and, Ifyou count up all the checklist items
that you have before the wheels leave theground, there's more of them for a Cessna
172 than there are for a Hawker 800 jet.

Bill (12:35):
That's crazy.

Kent (12:37):
Yeah, it's, it's utterly stupid.
FAA, if you're listening, that's whypeople don't use checklists when you're
not looking.

Bill (12:46):
Yeah.

Kent (12:47):
Um, and of course that's a detriment to safety.
you know,

Bill (12:53):
Hey, I'm, I'm going to ask you a question.

Kent (12:54):
on those checklists.
And

Bill (12:56):
I'm going to ask you a question, Kent, um, just to make sure you clarify
when you say killer items, I don't thinkyou mean, Oh, these are really cool items.
So do you want toexplain that a little bit

Kent (13:09):
I mean things that will
literally kill you and,

Bill (13:11):
right on?

Kent (13:12):
know, things that might damage the airplane.
Um, you know, going back through thePOH on my airplane, Which, eh, it's
a good thing to do now and then.
I've had this airplane for 12 yearsand, there's a lot of stuff in
there that made me go, huh, okay.
You know, one of the things that they putin there that I maybe should check better

(13:33):
than I do is, to make sure that the gearswitch is down before the master goes on.
Because my gear is
electric.

Bill (13:42):
Oh, yeah,

Kent (13:43):
gear switch is up, I don't know if the motor is strong enough to
pull the wheels in,

Bill (13:48):
but it's not going to be good for it.
Yeah,

Kent (13:51):
no, it's definitely not going to be good for it.
so yeah, I'm, I'm either going to burnout a motor and pop a breaker or I'm
going to drop the airplane on the ground.
now I've probably gotten complacentabout that because there are
Two people who fly my airplane.
And so, we're also both very similarin how we approach flying and such.

(14:16):
And I, I able to trust that, my coowner in the airplane is not going
to leave the gear switch up, but.
let's say, you know, there was just anevent at an airport near here last week.
hello to everyone in theonly one a key in the world.

(14:36):
they have a great breakfast andlike airport community day there.
And so they have all kinds of kids whoare wanting to sit in airplanes and stuff.
And, you know, we used to always takethe club airplanes over there and let
the kids crawl around and all that.
Well, okay.
After something like that, Well,yeah, you'd best be sure all the

(14:57):
switches are where you want themto be before you do anything.
anyway, so
now that we have, almost 15 minutestalking about how bad checklists
are, let's kind of move on tohow can we make them better.
and I do want to talk about a coupleof things that make them easier to use.

(15:21):
Eventually, once you get past thesetup phase, our friends of ForeFlight
have checklists in their product.
you can have ForeFlight readyou your checklists, which
it just does at pace you set.
but I got to admit that what inspiredme to dive back into checklists

(15:43):
here is a new product, relativelynew product anyway, called goose,
which is billed as your AI co pilot.
they were at Oshkosh this year.
They sponsored an entire exhibithanger and I got to admit that's the
first time I've ever seen an exhibithanger sponsored by a company I've
never heard of before.

Bill (16:04):
yeah, right.
Yeah.

Kent (16:05):
Um,

Bill (16:05):
Very interesting product.
Yeah.

Kent (16:08):
So they had their, you know, they got the booth right inside
the door for sponsoring the hanger.
And you know, I went over there andchecked it out and it's pretty darn cool.
you can set your checklists up inthere among other things that actually
does more than just checklists.
But,
you can set it up so that,it will wait for you.

(16:30):
this is kind of the default, I think whereit will read you a checklist item and
then you say either check or skip, or youcan even say go back and it'll go back to
the previous one and that sort of thing.
But, you know, just by doing actualvoice response, I feel like it
has a kind of a new dimension.

(16:51):
over some of the other appbased checklist products.
And,
it

Bill (16:58):
My understanding is.
it
can, alert you that it's time torun a checklist at certain phases
of flights as, as time goes on.
During certain phases of flight as well,which is pretty interesting for not
forgetting or moving over a checklist.

Kent (17:13):
yeah.
that part I haven't gotten into yet.
I know that it can settimers, for example.
So maybe at the end of your, beforetakeoff checklist, will start
a timer for a minute or two andthen say, Hey, do you want to do
your after takeoff checklist now?

(17:34):
And that sort of thing.
I don't know if it lets you dostuff based on climb and descent
and all that sort of thing, but,

Bill (17:41):
It, it does it, it can, I don't know if it has that feature yet.
I haven't dived in enough,but it does do it based on
distance from your destination.

Kent (17:50):
uh, cool.

Bill (17:53):
So as you're approaching your airport, maybe you have
it set to remind you to do yourpre 10 miles out, for example.

Kent (18:00):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's reason that maybe someother people want to get back into
checklists as well and think about,how their checklists are built.
I think that checklists aresomething that are at least
somewhat unique to an individual,
um,

Bill (18:19):
I agree.

Kent (18:19):
you know.
They are written for airplanes, butthere are probably some things that,
you know, maybe you're more prone toforgetting than I am or vice versa.
And so, you know, the first thing,the first time I forget something,
well, it needs to go on a checklist.
Right.

(18:40):
Um,
so how do we build checklists?
Um, I'm going to say that.
I, uh, you know, we mentionedthe difference between, um, 172.
I'm going to give you abefore and after so far for my

(19:03):
checklist project on the Mooney.
up to the point where the wheels leave theground, The POH has 173 checklist items,
kind of a lot, right?

Bill (19:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a lot.

Kent (19:24):
after it down to 74 and that does, both of those do include
the entire preflight inspection.
So, but for example, factory checklisthas 74 items on the preflight.
Mine has 34, you know, their beforestart checklist has 26 items.
Mine has eight.

(19:45):
I actually will be adding moreto this after I finished going
through everything on the factorychecklist and thinking through it.
But
given those

Bill (19:55):
You'll be adding those personal items.
The things that you are,you know, that you need

Kent (20:01):
Yeah.
And really, the main thing there is oneof the categories I actually wanted to
talk about, which is procedural items.
So all these checklists that were writtenby lawyers, as we like to say, they have
everything you need to know about theairplane and they don't cover everything.

(20:22):
anything else.
So for example, well, like the Mooneydoes talk about the radios being set.
That's kind of an old checklist, right?
Really we ought to be talkingabout the flight plan being
entered into the GPS these days,as well as the radios being set.
but you know, when you're making an IFRflight, there are additional procedural

(20:47):
things that you need to make sure thatyou do that, you know, they're not
going to kill you on a VFR flight.
But they might kill you on an IFR flight.
might be able to get away with it withouta takeoff briefing on a VFR flight, but if
you blast off into the clouds and go, whatwas my obstacle departure procedure again?
Yeah, you might be in the sideof a mountain before you are

(21:08):
able to go back and fix that.
So,
that sort of thing

Bill (21:12):
really good point.

Kent (21:13):
on GA checklists.
And as a result, I, I'm sittinghere talking about they're
not, or they're being too much.
On the checklists.
Most of the time, that's trueof the normal checklists.
I found the opposite is trueof the emergency checklists.
Some airplanes, when you look at theemergency checklist engine failure in a
single, for example, they start talkingabout setting the mixture to rich and

(21:36):
switching fuel tanks and, you know,and do a different mag or whatever.
And the first thing ought to be,
Air speed.

Bill (21:48):
Pitch pitch for best glide.
Yes.

Kent (21:51):
Yes.

Bill (21:52):
And that's

Kent (21:52):
thing should be find where you're going to land
and turn that way.

Bill (21:58):
exactly totally agree.
And,

Kent (22:00):
looking at the airplane.

Bill (22:02):
and, and by the way, I want to add, Especially for new pilots, if you
haven't thought about this, pitch forbest glide is almost always going to be a
pull unless you happen to be on takeoff.

Kent (22:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Unless you're
climbing.

Bill (22:18):
And you might as well, if you're in cruise and you're starting to lose
your engine, you might as well takethat altitude when you can get it.
So,

Kent (22:28):
And of course, trim for it right away, or you're not going to be
keeping it for very long.

Bill (22:32):
yep,

Kent (22:34):
one hint I've heard is that most airplanes it's pretty close to all the way
nose up trim

Bill (22:39):
yep.
Most air, most GA or, youknow, piston airplanes.
Yeah, it'll be almost all the way back.

Kent (22:46):
so yeah, there are definitely some, some opportunities
to flush some things out.
and especially on emergencychecklists, you know, you're
already going to have a startle orflight kind of response going on.
And so you, Absolutely do not want toskip something important, and that's

(23:09):
why you really do need to kind of addthings to the emergency checklist,
even if they might seem fairly obvious,you know, you don't want to make the
checklist ridiculously long, but youdo want to be sure that those things
that were just talked about, you know,that aren't necessarily related to
airplane systems are taken care ofgenerally those are the most important.

(23:35):
so let's see, I guess, my overallmethod for doing this is to
start with the factory checklist.
Don't just start from scratch.

Bill (23:47):
Yeah, there could be some things on there that are, that
are killer items and you want tomake sure that those make it on.

Kent (23:53):
checklists are written how they are for
I think that there are some betterreasons sometimes to change how they work.
one thing that I have done quitea bit of to get my item count down
is just to combine things are rightnext to each other, for example.

(24:16):
you know, at one point, I think mychecklist says to turn the master on and
then it says to turn the alternator fieldon and then it says avionics master.
And you know, it's doing thingsthat are right next to each other.
so what I'm going to do is I'm goingto say, Masters on that makes sure

(24:39):
that I covered all three of them, butit makes it so that I only have one
checklist item

Bill (24:45):
right

Kent (24:46):
right next to each other.
So it's not like I have to look aroundfor anything, to know that that item is
complete.

Bill (24:52):
Yeah.

Kent (24:55):
You know, same thing.
I have three items for seats, seatbelts, and shoulder harnesses.
Well, I go back to the checklistthat we used in the TBM.
Seats, adjusted and belted.
You covered all three ofthose things in a single item.

(25:15):
Um,
another one that,

Bill (25:20):
Going, Going, back to how bad these checklists can be.
that's one of my pet peeves whenthere's a bunch of things that the
seats, seat belts, shoulder harnesses,I cannot stand that on a checklist,
especially when they're, when they'reall, you know, separate items.
These are why we skip things.
Because there's too many, and you're,you're looking down, you're glancing,

(25:45):
and you're going, yeah, yeah, yeah, I,I know these all three are together,
you're moving down, and then you mayskip one, that's actually a killer item,
that's after those, because there's justtoo many, and I know we're harping on
that, but I love, I love where you'regoing with this, because if we made these
checklists more useful, yeah, We would usethem more and use them more effectively.

(26:08):
So I love this.
Yeah.
Perfect example.

Kent (26:11):
And some people might think, Oh, well, you know, going and making
your own checklists isn't safe.
Well,
I disagree.
A, it

Bill (26:18):
I do too.

Kent (26:19):
everything.
B, it makes it more likely thatyou're actually going to use your
checklists.
And, you

Bill (26:25):
and does everybody

Kent (26:26):
checklists, I mean, those 172 checklists are tiny print.
Because there's a billiondifferent things on him.
Well, you know, when I firststarted making my own checklists,
I did it with some help from myCF double I and I was able to, you
know, format everything myself.

(26:48):
I got the whole thing basicallyonto two sides of a single sheet
of eight and a half by 11 paper.
and things were printed probably doublethe size that they are in a 172 POH.
So it makes

Bill (27:03):
for my,

Kent (27:03):
that you'll miss
individual items as

Bill (27:05):
yeah, for the planes I fly, I try to get them on both sides of
a half sheet and then I laminatethem when I'm using paper checklist.
they might not be as large as yours were.
but they're large enough for me to readbecause I've got old eyes these days.
But, I, I, the other reasonnot to use a checklist is it's

(27:26):
hard to handle in the cockpit.
I'll give you an example.
A lot of times people will usethese checklists that are like tri
fold, you know, checklists so theyfit in the pocket or whatever.
But then you're like, Turningpages, basically, and trying to find
the right spot on the checklist.

(27:47):
I want something, if I'm using an eboard,I want something that'll I can stash
somewhere and pull out, hold it up anduse it without having to fumble around
with two hands, you know what I mean?
And so those kinds ofthings drive me nuts too.
So just to add like kind of the physical,I know that we were talking a little

(28:11):
earlier about using electronic checklist.
We talked about goose.
We talked about for flight.
There's others also, and I've startedexperimenting with using more,
electronic checklists to see how thatfits into my flows and see how that
fits into the way that I'm flying.
I think the dimension ofhaving goose talk to you.

(28:31):
Could be a really good way to go.
but however you do it, that's notreally what we're focusing on here.
It's not really the important thing.
The important thing is what's on thechecklist so that we're using it.
And is it easy to use?
Whatever it may be.
If it's
a laminated card or if it's anelectronic, whatever it is, it

(28:53):
has to be easy for you to use.
So you'll use it.

Kent (28:57):
Yeah.
And what I did when I, was firstdoing my, edited checklists on
paper I'd print it on one side.
I would have one sheet, a fulleight and a half by 11 that I would
fold in half

Bill (29:11):
Yes.

Kent (29:12):
into the IFR flight file thing that you could buy from Sporty's that held.
paper approach plates backwhen we use those two.
So it was effectively a half sheet,both sides for all my normal procedures
and another half sheet, both sides for
all the emergency procedures

Bill (29:28):
Love it.

Kent (29:29):
work great.
you know, I.
was showing you the TBM checklistswe were using before, earlier, and
those were printed on half sheets.
Laminated and then one hole punched in thecorner and we just have a little little
binder ring And so all the checklistswere just on in a little packet on this

(29:51):
ring And we just slap them right inbetween the glare shield and the a pillar.
So they were always rightthere made it super easy and
then, you know, as we kind of wentthrough the flight, you'd just through the
checklists and you were always right there
ready for the next one.

Bill (30:12):
Yep.
I usually.

Kent (30:13):
there's a million ways to use them and to format them.
And, you know, when I finished thisprocess, I probably will put them
in goose and for flight and on MikeGarmin, seven 50 and print them
out,

Bill (30:28):
Yes, I was just going to say when you were talking about stashing them
on the A pillar, mine and basicallyany airplane I'm flying is being
stashed between, you know, the glareshield and the, and the, the windscreen
and, you know, off to the right.
Cause I'm flying rightseat now all the time.
So it's always off tothe right, right there.

(30:50):
Always easy for me to grab.
That's the.
Thing I'm scared about the mostif I transition to electronic.
but like you, I've started thinking,well, why not just have a paper one too?
And I'll just have it stashedwhere I always know what it's at.
And I can always pull that out and use it.
no matter what, if I don't want to takethe extra, you know, couple seconds to get
to it on whatever device I've got it on

Kent (31:12):
And it is worth saying, know, we're pilots.
We like to
have backups for everything,

Bill (31:16):
and true.
True.
Yep.

Kent (31:19):
you know, paper checklists blow out the window.
So they're not the only thing that,you know, I'm sure there are some
people who would be like, or you
should use paper, but,

Bill (31:29):
Okay.
I, I know,

Kent (31:31):
a backup for everything.
Even your paper.

Bill (31:33):
I know we're going long, but I have to tell the story
because of what you just said.
so.
When I started a few months backwhen I started my transition
training to the right seat, my veryfirst flight in the right seat,
you'll never guess what happened.
I was flying a piper.
So low wing.
It was an archer and it's hot.
It's middle of the summer.

(31:54):
So we always start the airplanewith the doors open in the
window open and everything.
And one thing I'd never had to deal with.
Was the checklist flying out thedoor and what happened the very first
time I flew from the right seat.
I started the engine withthe checklist on my lap.

Kent (32:14):
Bye

Bill (32:16):
bye.
bye.
So yeah, I got that engine started, went,I think the checklist just flew out.
And so had to shut down, getunstrapped, move the seat back, get
out of the airplane, go find it.
It had blown under anotherairplane, you know, about.
30 yards behind and, grab it,bring it back to the airplane and

(32:36):
start the procedure all over again.
So I had to say that, yes, theysometimes blow out the windows.
Sometimes your iPad loses itsbattery or overheats, whatever.
So yes, backups are a good idea.
I agree.

Kent (32:50):
Excellent.
Well, let's kind of continuewith, how we build these things.
like I said, we're going tostart with factory checklist and
literally go through every itemand say, okay, why is this here?
Should it be somewhere else?
Should it be here?

(33:10):
At all.
Should it be combined with something else?
So,
you know, I don't know if we're goingto actually use video here, but let me
share my other screen with you here.
So on the left is my factory POH onthe right is my Personal checklist.

(33:37):
I basically am writing up thiswhole document with what I am doing
and taking notes and all that.
So, let me start here withmy before start checklist.
Basically, I've color coded things here.
So if something is still black,it's as it is from the factory.

(34:01):
If it's red, it means I eliminated it.
If it's orange, it means Ihave moved it somewhere else.
And if it's green, it means Imoved it from somewhere else.
and then if it's somethingthat I just added, it's blue.
So if you look at this, you cansee there's not a whole lot of
black here.

Bill (34:22):
All right.
Right.

Kent (34:24):
like, for example, right here is that masters thing.
So they said, master off,alternator off, avionics master off.
just changed that to mastersoff, or masters three
off, rather.

Bill (34:42):
Right.

Kent (34:43):
just because of how I formatted it right there, but, this is just notes.
This is not my actual checklist.
I'm going to, you know, enter thisinto goose and all the other places,
but this is just me keeping track ofwhat I'm doing, in terms of what's
different from the factory checklist.
So now you can see, okay, right below thatalternator and avionics master have been

(35:06):
moved away because they're combined intomasters and then boost pump switches off.
Well, at that and went, okay, there'snot a real good reason why they would
ever be on at this point anyway.
And if they are on, what happens?

(35:30):
the negative effect?
You

Bill (35:33):
Yeah.
Nothing.

Kent (35:34):
on.
I hear the pump.
I go, well, that's weird.
I turned the pump off.
It's not going to hurt the airplane.
It's not going to hurt me.
Get rid of it.
Next thing.
Directional gyro slave.
Okay.
Slave DHSI.
We never take that thingout of slaving mode.

(35:54):
And like, if we had to, it wouldprobably be going to the avionics shop.
So, that one.
Okay.
Well, I'm going to take care ofthat in the instrument checks.
instead of instruments check orsomething like that, later on, like
during taxi, I'm going to say, okay, HSIslaved, moving, matching the compass.

(36:19):
you can see a lot of these, are movedto interior pre flight because, you
know, I was thinking about thesein terms of, If I'm going flying
on a summer day, do I need to bedoing this sitting in the cockpit
sweating or can I do it

Bill (36:37):
Right.

Kent (36:37):
flight inspection?
you know, before my passengersshow up and all that kind of stuff.
So you'll see there's some thingsI moved to the interior pre flight.
There's some things I movedto the engine start checklist.
there's some things thatlike rocker switches all off.
Again, what's the consequence here?
I want to leave my elevator trim switchon all the time, unless I have a runaway

(37:01):
trim scenario, because I've had toreplace that switch and it was 325.
So there is no reason to be switchingthat on and off every time when
that is an item that pretty much is
always going to be on,

Bill (37:14):
Mm hmm.

Kent (37:16):
boost pump.
We talked about, pedo heat.
I will have checked onthe pre flight elsewhere.
really there's no reason for me togo through and turn all those off.
They're either already off or they have no
effect anyway.
So got

Bill (37:32):
Right.

Kent (37:33):
flaps up again, this is before start.
The only consequential thingwith the flaps is that I get
them into the takeoff position
prior to takeoff.

Bill (37:43):
Yeah.
So put them on the pre takeoff checklist.

Kent (37:45):
exactly.
And they were already there, which
is, you know, that's one reason

Bill (37:49):
Right.

Kent (37:50):
173 items

Bill (37:51):
Exactly.

Kent (37:53):
Um, because for example, I'll have to go and find the, pre takeoff checklists
here.

Bill (38:01):
are are the, are the lawyers back when that POH was printed, are
they afraid that you might get a stiffwind and if the flaps are down, you
might take off while you're taxing?
I mean, seriously, whatare they worried about?

Kent (38:12):
a lot of stuff that just makes no sense.
But if you look on the left side of thescreen, about halfway down here is where
their before takeoff checklist starts.
And if you go through and pass all thesenotes and everything, and then they have
this takeoff checklist, they're basicallyhaving you recheck almost everything

Bill (38:33):
Yeah.

Kent (38:34):
takeoff checklist.
so, Yeah.
Yeah.
Unless it's going to kill you, there'sno reason to check it more than once.
So anyway, the other thingthat we want to get rid of is
what I'm calling to fly items
and do list

(38:55):
items.
there's a few more of those lateron, but like if we look at engine
start checklist, I think has some.
Oh, like they say low boost on, well,eh, that depends on the type of start.
You know, if it's a flooded start ora hot start, you're not doing that.

(39:19):
so pretty much I have propclear and engine start there
after a few other things.
But you know,
if you look

Bill (39:28):
The how to fly thing.
I gotta tell you,

Kent (39:31):
mixture, master, how about power levers set for start?
Done.
Engine.
Prime.
That covers all the, you know,boost pump and power levers and all
that as well lets you edit in yourhead what's going on because, okay,
let's say I'm doing a hot start.
Well, this is all different.
Mooney put it all in a separate checklist.

(39:53):
but that checklist doesn'thave all the items on it.
So you actually have to do both checklistsand then you're skipping items on one.
that's just not a good practice anyway.
So that it just makes no
sense at all.
So

Bill (40:07):
I gotta say.

Kent (40:09):
stuff we get rid of

Bill (40:10):
Yeah, I gotta say when you said the how to fly stuff, it, it kind of cracked
me up a little bit because while I'vebeen experimenting with these electronic
checklists, I'm bringing in these defaultchecklists in ForeFlight, that come
from the POHs and, and I pulled one in.
I don't even remember which oneit was, maybe for a 172 and it

(40:32):
had a takeoff checklist and ithad things on it like full power,
rotate at 60.
You know, and I'm just dying,like, are you kidding me?
Like, if you're using a checklistwhile you're on the takeoff
roll, you're in serious trouble.

Kent (40:57):
Yes.

Bill (40:58):
So, yeah, crazy.

Kent (41:00):
right there on the left hand side of my screen, again, take off
powerful throttle enunciators, checkengine instruments, check for proper
indications, lift off climb speed as,as specified in section five, landing
gear, retract and climb wing flaps up.
Like what

Bill (41:18):
is not a good checklist.
Yes, that,

Kent (41:20):
is

Bill (41:20):
that is a,
that is a how to,
not a checklist.

Kent (41:25):
Now I want you to take note of one thing here.
The factory checklist jumps straightfrom before takeoff to takeoff to climb.
And if you look over on the righthand side, you can see I have an
entire checklist here that I've added.
actually, it wasn't even that one.
I might have two now that I look at it.

(41:48):
Yeah, I haven't colored this yet.
So I have an after start checklist that isseparate from the before taxi checklist.
I also have an after takeoff checklist.
now a small GA airplane aftertakeoff and climb could be combined.

(42:09):
and that's, you know, the, the factorychecklist has a climb checklist.
It's missing a bunch of stuffin my opinion, but it's there.
but the reason for after start isthat these are a few things that
really ought to be done right away.
Okay.
after the engine is started ratherthan, you know, starting the engine
and then kind of getting distractedwith putting the flight plan into the

(42:33):
GPS and talking to your passengersabout what's happening next and this
and that and the other things.
So

Bill (42:39):
I, I feel the same way, Kent, and, so some of the checklists I've used have
an after, you know, have an after start.
what I did when I was making myown checklist is I made the engine
start checklist include those items.
After starting the engine.
so yeah, same thing.
Just make sure you finish a checklistor do that next checklist before

(43:03):
you move on to other things.
Cause yes, there are things that youwant to do right after the engine starts.
Totally agree.

Kent (43:09):
definitely.
So yeah, stuff like to make sure you haveoil pressure, your alternators on and
charging, you know, your mixtures leanedso you're not following your spark plugs.
that sort of stuff, you know, that shouldbe done immediately after the engine is
started, because you know, if you don'thave oil pressure, you got to get that
thing shut down before you damage it.

(43:31):
and then you can get intoall of the other stuff.
you know, really kind ofgetting ready for the flight.
And then when you're ready to taxior you feel like you're ready to
taxi, then you do the before taxi
checklist.
So,

Bill (43:44):
Totally agree.

Kent (43:46):
and then stuff for, takeoff
here again.

Bill (43:50):
I want to point I want to point something out that we touched on earlier,
and you'll probably talk about later,but this is a really good example.
So I don't want to give upthe opportunity for for me.
I like to instead ofhaving an extra checklist.
I like to add those items on to the.
Engine start checklist.
Kent may want to have a separatechecklist that he does right

(44:14):
away called the after takeoff.
I'm sorry.
The after engine start checklist.
this is what we were talking about beforewhen we, when we said that it's really
good to create these for yourself because.
We may have different,standard operating procedures.
We may, think about thingsslightly differently.
And I don't mean just Kent andmyself, but every one of us as pilots.

(44:36):
And so make these checklists matchhow it's going to work effectively
for you because they're for you.
So I just wanted to point that out, thatwe may all do these things a little bit
differently, and that's totally fine.
Make it work for you.

Kent (44:52):
Yeah.
one thing to note on thatthough, is that if you're looking
toward a career in aviation,

Bill (45:01):
Good point.

Kent (45:02):
you're not going to be able to make your own checklists in a Boeing
seven 37 at Southwest airlines.
Those will be made for you.
and you know, we'll probably talkabout standard operating procedures at
some point, but, any reasonably sizedcarrier, whether it's one 35 or one
21 is going to have standard operatingprocedures so that, you know, you can

(45:25):
hop in a cockpit with

Bill (45:28):
does it the same way.

Kent (45:29):
And right, everybody does it the same way and everybody's on the same page.
you know, that's a, that's ahuge, huge boon to safety for
everybody to be doing it the
same way.

Bill (45:41):
That is an excellent call out.
yep.
What I was referring to was for GA,but that is an excellent call out.
Yep.
Sometimes you'll be in a situationwhere there's an SOP and that's
what you'll be following.

Kent (45:52):
right, what I want to say is I, I'm not disagreeing with you here.
However, in the case that you have,let's say, a place that you want to work
and you can get checklists from them.
You know, if you have a friendthat flies there or something
like that, what they have.

(46:13):
Because one thing, you know, we kindof talked about goose automatically
alerting you before, but if youcan get into good habits right away
anyway, think about, okay, it's aftertakeoff, I have a checklist to run
or I'm climbing through 10, 000 feet.
I have a checklist to run,all that sort of thing.

(46:35):
That can really behelpful to you later on.
and, You know, that's, that'sanother, reason I had started,
looking at this a few years ago, too.
Last time I kind of wentthrough this process was, I'm
flying a Mooney on my own.
I'm flying a TBM in aprofessional crew environment.

(46:56):
I want to make those two thingsas similar to each other as I
can, so that they're reinforcinggood habits in both directions.

Bill (47:06):
Excellent point.

Kent (47:07):
If that is your situation, it's worth trying to, you know, things
similarly, just so that you getinto good habits right off the bat.
I realize that's going to bepretty difficult for a lot of
people because, you know, you maynot know where you're going to go
eventually, where you want to go yet,

(47:29):
But if you're in a situation whereyou have that luxury, or if you're
already doing some professional flyingas well as some GA flying, you know,
it's worth trying to make those thingsas similar as you can make them.
So, all that said,

(47:49):
it's worth, moving thingsaround a little bit.
have seen some checklists whereif you follow the order that's
on the checklist, it just hasyou bouncing all over the place.
really good checklists, willfollow a flow and you can do the
flow before you do the checklist.

(48:10):
you know, in the TBM, we calledit the inverted C because we
basically went across the overheadpanel down the middle, and then.
Back to the left.
kind of made things real easy.
you know, if you have to jump all overthe place, it's going to slow you down.
And checklists taking longer is onereason why some people don't use them.
So, you know, we're basicallytrying to take away all those

(48:33):
barriers to people using checklists.
So make them make sense.
you know, Think about why somethingmight have been put in a particular
place and why it's there and how movingmight affect other checklist items, but
in a lot of cases, you're going to find,okay, well, there's really no reason
not to move this item in between theseother two so that I can just kind of.

(49:00):
things off in an orderthat makes more sense.
example of that for, Mooneyis like many airplanes.
The pre flight checklist you starting ata particular point on the airplane and
then going around the whole airplane.
Well,
a do list.

Bill (49:19):
Yep.

Kent (49:20):
what I did was.
when I made it into a checklistis I kind of kind of did it.
So it was tail forward.
I'm not putting separateitems in for right wing and
left wing and all that stuff.
So, example, I have a static porton both sides of the airplane.

(49:40):
I need to check both static ports,but I don't need two separate
checklist items for that static

Bill (49:45):
Right.

Kent (49:46):
checked done.
so I just kind of went tail to nose,makes sense with the way my airplane is
in the hangar and how I would go backand check something if I had missed it.
so I think we mentioned this already,but anytime you forget something on a

(50:08):
flight, probably worth adding to yourchecklist, even if it only happens once.

Bill (50:18):
So I've got a

Kent (50:19):
some

Bill (50:20):
I've got a question.

Kent (50:21):
stuff.

Bill (50:22):
I've got a question for you, Kent.
you know, going back to that to dolist for a pre flight checklist.
And obviously I'm, I spendsome time flying in a, in a
flight school environment and.
Once I can get a DPE to do my checkride, I'll probably be spending more
time flying in a, in a flight, youknow, in a learning environment.

(50:46):
I've been kicking around the idea.
and I'm, I'm just sort of, runningthis by you to see what you think.
We haven't talked about this before,but I've been kicking around the
idea of having a separate sheet ofpaper that is a pre flight, you know,
interior and exterior to do list that.

(51:06):
My students could learn how to do itwith, but I love the idea of not having
that stuff in order on the checklistlike you were just talking about.
it's one of the biggestchecklists there is.
One of the biggest sections ofthe checklist is the pre flight,

Kent (51:22):
yeah,

Bill (51:23):
because there's a lot of things to hit and it's the one
part of even my checklist thatI feel like are to do lists.
And we want to stay away from todo lists on a checklist, right?
I find myself not really using it.
I carry it around with me.
When I'm doing the pre flight, but I'vegot a flow for the pre flight, and then

(51:45):
afterwards, I kind of run my finger downvery quickly just to try and make sure
I didn't miss anything, but doing that'svery difficult when there's so many items.
So, I'm kicking around thisidea of having a separate sheet.
It's not part of the checklist.
That's a to do list for a pre flight,having them kind of learn with that,
and then check the most criticalitems on the checklist when they're

(52:05):
done to make sure that those thingsgot done, and then pretty soon they
won't even need that to do list.
You know,

Kent (52:11):
right.

Bill (52:13):
what, what do you think of that idea?

Kent (52:15):
I think it's a great idea.
And, you know, like we've alreadysaid, checklists can be different for
different people.
And

Bill (52:22):
Mm hmm.

Kent (52:24):
expand on that to say, checklists can be different for the
same person at different times in
their flying career.
You

Bill (52:30):
Mm.

Kent (52:31):
a hundred percent appropriate for somebody to have a checklist for
preflight that has Every single thing onit in order as you go around the entire
airplane and repeat stuff from the leftwing on the right wing and, you know,
all that sort of thing, because they'regoing to need that initially, you know,

(52:53):
after a certain number of flights andthey have that down, maybe they can move
on to something that's more of a the box.
And yes, I checked all those things in allof the places they exist on the airplane
without having to do it all

Bill (53:07):
Exactly.

Kent (53:08):
what?
Maybe if that person doesn'tfly for a while, they go
back to the lengthy procedure

Bill (53:16):
The to do list.
Yep.

Kent (53:18):
And, you know, a lot of this, especially in something like a
172 that's designed as a trainer,that's why they have all these how
to fly items and

Bill (53:27):
That's right.

Kent (53:28):
list items and all that, because it really is kind of an instruction
manual for how to fly an airplane ingeneral, but you don't need that forever.
so I think, you know,
student

Bill (53:42):
and I,

Kent (53:42):
for the

Bill (53:42):
and I don't,

Kent (53:43):
probably go with just what's in the book.
And then maybe once they have theirprivate and they're starting to work
on their instrument, that's whenthey kind of knock off some of those
things that are feeling obvious
to them at that point.

Bill (53:56):
yeah,

Kent (53:56):
as long as it's
not a killer item,

Bill (53:58):
some of those items.

Kent (54:00):
some of those things that are IFR or procedural items as they move
into their instrument training.

Bill (54:05):
Yeah, but some of those items I don't think belong on a
checklist, even for a brand newstudent, because you're not going
to be using a checklist like that.
So, so, you know, these are thingsthat they should study and that they
should get familiar with and practiceand again, maybe have a separate sheet.
It's like a cheat sheet, like, okay,this is what a takeoff looks like or

(54:26):
whatever it may be, but it probablystill doesn't rotate at 55 knots.
That doesn't belong ona, on a checklist ever.
You're never going to be lookingat a checklist when you rotate.
So

Kent (54:40):
If

Bill (54:40):
yeah.

Kent (54:40):
on a checklist, it belongs and the
before

Bill (54:44):
Briefing in the briefing.

Kent (54:45):
takeoff briefing.

Bill (54:47):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yep.
All right.
All right.
We're on the same page.
So yeah, something I'vebeen thinking about lately.
So I wanted to run it by you.

Kent (54:56):
Yeah.
yeah, that's kind of my lastbit is to add, you know, good
practice procedures like briefing.
I don't think I've ever actually seenthat on an airline or an airplane.
Checklist.
you know, what are you goingto do if your engine fails?
so that's, that's something that, evenin the TBM, it may be a fancy turbine

(55:19):
airplane, but it's still a single.
And so I would always brief, okay, whichway am I turning if I'm high enough
to try and turn back to the airport?
you know, which way isthe wind coming from?
Where are the, roadwaysand fields and stuff.
You know, I would actually zoom in onthe satellite view in for flight and
look around the airport a little bitand go, okay, it's all trees to the

(55:44):
left, but there's a highway over tothe right that we can make it to if
we're above, you know, 400 feet offthe ground or something like that.
Adding things in like that is great.
of the nice features goosehas is it lets you put tags on
checklist items and filter them.
So if something is only relevant to anIFR flight, can actually filter out all

(56:06):
the IFR items when you go on a VFR flight.
you know, we could

Bill (56:10):
That is very interesting.

Kent (56:11):
whether that's actually a good idea or not,

Bill (56:14):
Right, right.
That is an interesting concept.

Kent (56:17):
in the TBM, you know, we always kept the checklist exactly the same, but.
Uh, we actually did have separatechecklists for night currency when
we were just going to be stayingin the pattern because so many
items on the regular checklist wereirrelevant on a flight like that.
It was completely different thanan operational flight would be.

(56:37):
But, you know, certain thingsare still different on a quick,
short VFR repositioning flight.
That's part 91 compared to, okay,now we're going somewhere with a
plane full of passengers, part 135.
So,

Bill (56:52):
right.
right.

Kent (56:55):
you know, whether you say irrelevant or you just use a feature
in the software to skip over it,um, doesn't really matter, but
something to think about as well.

Bill (57:06):
Yeah.
There is something to be said,always doing it the same way, right.

Kent (57:10):
yep.

Bill (57:14):
Excellent.

Kent (57:16):
Well, I

Bill (57:16):
Well,

Kent (57:17):
pretty much,
beat this one to death, huh?

Bill (57:19):
for sure.
Yeah, this is good stuff.
This is really good stuff.

Kent (57:23):
It's, it's time to run the podcast
shutdown checklist.

Bill (57:26):
All right, let me pull that out here.
Yeah, so that is, that is good stuff.
And I think this is a really good,segue into checklist for somebody
who's just beyond the check ride.
because you've been flyingwith somebody else's checklist.
Most likely you've been flyingwith a flight school or, a, an
instructor's checklist and you'regoing to start flying on your own.

(57:51):
It's good to be thinking about thesethings and thinking, you know, how
am I going to be able to try and dothis the same way every time and use
these checklists to keep myself safe,get these killer items completed.
And, so can't, I really appreciateyou covering this topic so well,
especially because you've got a lotof even recent personal experience

(58:13):
going through your Mooney checklist.
And then of course yourprofessional flying experience,
it's really helpful as well.
So really appreciate you doing this.
Any last ideas or conceptson checklists before we,

Kent (58:26):
Well, I was going to say that there may be some DPEs out there.
who are not okay with you usingchecklists you made yourself.
if they're good, I would hope that youcould still have a discussion with them
and say, here's how I made the checklist.
And I started with the factory checklist.
I've added things on,

Bill (58:47):
I've combined items, yeah,

Kent (58:49):
right.
And you know, for what it's worth, the,checklists that we used, flying the
TBMs, are not the factory checklists.
They are checklists that wemade that the FAA then approved.
and I think they may have had tohave all of the items from the
factory checklists in them, butwe definitely added a bunch of our

(59:12):
own as

Bill (59:14):
and maybe moved them around a little bit to match your,
you know, SOP and all of that, you know,

Kent (59:19):
at least a little bit of precedent.
Within the FAA for not using factorychecklists because they do approve
operators checklists as well.
So Hopefully you can have a discussionwith an examiner and say hey, look,
yes, this is not the factory checklist.
However, you know, this is

(59:41):
This is how I did it.
And this is how I covered all the bases.
And hopefully there'll be cool with that.
That's not a conversation that I would
start, but if
they asked about the checklists Iwas using, know, I would, I would
hope that they would still let
you use those.
But,

Bill (59:57):
And when you're flying somebody else's, when you're flying somebody
else's airplane, you might want tocheck with them too to make sure
that they're okay with the checklistyou're using, just to make sure that
it is covering all the things that'sgoing to protect the airplane itself.
But, um,
and that would include the reason Ibring that up is that would include,
for instance, a flight school.
so while I did make my own checklistwhile I've been in, all the flight

(01:00:21):
schools I've been in, I made sure toinclude all the items they had on theirs.
I would just kind of rearrangeor reorganize or combine.
But I did that out of respect for athese, you know, these are your airplanes.
I'm going to make sure that allof these things are on here.
your standard operating procedures,you know, I mean, I'm going to
follow what you want us to do.

(01:00:42):
when you're flying for yourself,even in a club or you own your own
airplane or anything like that,you have a little bit more leeway.

Kent (01:00:49):
Yeah.
And you know, for what it's worth,I created checklists for the diamond
star when the club purchased it.
Okay.
And it was mostly just taking the POHchecklist and adding the eight airplane
flight manual supplements for variousequipment that was installed on it
and combining them all because that'ssomething that is easily forgotten.

(01:01:14):
You know, if you don't go and check,okay, how many AFMSs are in the actual
physical POH for this airplane, youknow, that's, those are important too.

Bill (01:01:26):
Good point.
All right.
Well, thanks again, Kent.
Great topic.
I'm sure that, listeners andviewers will have lots of their
own opinions, so let's hear them.
You can always reach out to us and youcan reach me at bill at studentpilotcast.
com and, a bunch of otherways as well on social media.
So definitely reach out, comment, whateveryou need to do, get it off your chest.

(01:01:49):
We want to hear it.
We love to hear feedback and we loveto hear ideas from other pilots.
So bring it.
So Kent, until next time, thanks again.
We'll talk to you later.

Kent (01:02:01):
All right.
We'll see ya.

Bill Williams's video recording (01:02:06):
Well, thanks for hanging out with us for
this beyond the check ride episode.
And we hope you enjoyed it.
I'm sure some of you are firedup about the topic and have
some opinions of your own.
So please reach out andlet us know your thoughts.
You can reach us via emailat bill at student pilotcast.
com or via the contactpage on the website.
You can also reach outvia X using at bill.

(01:02:28):
Well, that's Bravo, India, Lima,Lima, whiskey, India, Lima.
And we do have a.
Instagram account for the podcastcalled appropriately student pilot cast.
So feel free to contactus there if you want to.
That said, I want everyone to have aMerry Christmas and a great new year.
And keep the dirty side down by usinggood checklists and using them well.

(01:02:52):
So we'll catch you on the next one.

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SPC#82 - Making a List and Checking it Twice...or Never.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}SPC#82 - Making a List and Checking it Twice...or Never.