April 29, 2025 • 49 mins
In Episode 83, we go back to the days of the Pilotcast. Due to the tragic events of the past weekend, we wanted to re-release a Pilotcast Episode from 2018 where Kent, Tiffany, and Bill interview Aerobatic Champion and Airshow start Rob Holland. Rob tragically was killed this in an aviation accident a few days ago and since the Pilotcast is no longer hosted anywhere, we wanted to get this content back out and available to the world, so I'm releasing it again, in it's entirety, as a throwback SPC episode. We hope you enjoy it. Remember, fly good and don't suck.
Links:
Hope you enjoy the episode and thanks for listening! Visit the SPC website at https://studentpilotcast.com. Please keep the feedback coming. You can use the contact form on the website or send email to bill at student pilot cast dot com. The theme song for our episodes is "To Be an Angel" by the band, "Uncle Seth".
Legal Notice: Remember, any instruction that you hear in this podcast was meant for me and me alone in the situation that we happened to be in at the time. Please do not try to apply anything you see or hear in this episode or any other episode to your own flying. If you have questions about any aspect of your flying, please consult a qualified CFI.
Copyright 2008-2025, studentpilotcast.com and Bill Williams
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome back.
SPC listeners.
I'm really sorry for the long absence,but it turns out becoming a full-time
flight instructor while also working intechnology and another job and figuring
out how to be good at that whole flightinstruction thing makes a lot of other
things in my life head to the backburner, but I couldn't wait on this one
(00:23):
We're again reaching into the archives.
But from a different podcast and adifferent time, but it's timely because
of the tragic events of this past weekend.
I hope you love this blast from the past.
(00:59):
Okay, so this past weekend we lost one ofthe greats from the air show circuit and
from aerobatic competition in Rob Holland.
But this episode is not about thetragic accident that took his life,
but rather a fond personal memory.
When Kent, Tiffany and I interviewed Robfor the pilot cast way back in 2018, I
(01:24):
figured since the Pilotcast is no longerbeing hosted anywhere anymore, and
the audio is effectively lost from thePodosphere, I'd stick it back in and I'd
do it here on the student pilot cast feed.
I hope you enjoy what was originallyreleased as episode 90 of the pilot
cast rereleased here as episode83 of the student pilot cast.
(01:49):
Listen to Rob Holland.
Give us a glimpse into theprocess and the preparation of
one of the greatest of all time
The episode is included here in itsentirety, including the intro, the
music, and the outro of the old pilot.
Cast a welcome blast fromthe past if you ask me.
(02:09):
Enjoy.
Welcome to another episodeof the Pilot, episode 90.
This is Pilot Tiffany.
Hi Bill.
And Pilot Kent.
And today we have aspecial guest, Rob Holland.
(02:38):
Yeah, so we,
I, I think we're, uh, we're maybe onthe path to having new call signs.
'cause, you know, after this wholemuting us for like eight years.
Uh, bill is here to, for called Buttons,
but you know, we had a little bit of adebacle, uh, scheduling tonight's episode.
(03:03):
Uh, Tiffany was having trouble withtime zones and math and tried to clarify
something and actually made it worse.
So I think we're gonna have to callTiffany Breitling and here's why.
She looks really good and everybodywants her because she looks good,
(03:23):
but nobody should be using herto tell time on a daily basis.
You know, I knew it, but I didn'trealize you had a whole backstory, Kent.
That's great.
Look, I'm gonna just, I'm gonnaput this out there right now.
If anyone out there from Brightlingis listening, I would be more
(03:43):
than happy to wear your watch.
All right, Kent, you're, you'regonna get one here really soon.
Yeah.
I just have to dosomething stupid, I guess.
Well, hey, our next podcastis coming up soon, so.
Actually, what's your wife's phone number?
(04:05):
Oh boy.
She's probably got a list going, so,
yeah.
No, I'm kidding.
So we've got a special treat today.
Uh, we've got Rob Holland withus to talk about some of his.
Aerobatic flying.
Rob is an airshow pilot anda champion aerobatic pilot.
(04:26):
He's, uh, IAC and US National AerobaticChampionship and I believe that's
seven time US National Champion.
Uh, welcome Rob.
We're happy to have you.
Thanks.
Good to be here.
Excellent.
So there's a lot of stuff that wecan talk to you about, but I want
to start with kind of the obvious.
(04:47):
Um, you've won the, the USNational Championships seven times.
Seven times in a row.
In fact, I think.
Is that right?
Yeah, that's correct.
I've, uh, I've gotten prettygood at fooling the judges,
so it's gone pretty well.
Well, it's important to point out forthose who don't follow that, that that
is, um, only been done by one otherperson, uh, ever to win at seven times,
(05:12):
and you've got an opportunity to breakthat record coming up here in the fall.
How are you feeling about that?
Yeah, uh, I'm feeling pretty good.
I mean, we'll see how it goes.
I'm gonna practice hard this year andgo to the nationals and do my best.
And uh, you know, as long asI flew better than I did last
time, then that's a win for me.
So.
(05:32):
So do you, do you critique yourselfa lot after those competitions?
Oh, always.
You know, if there's video, I'm alwayswatching myself and trying to critique and
trying to figure out what I can do better.
And there's, there's always things toimprove upon, so, yeah, it's just a,
it's an endless quest to get better.
Okay.
So I have a questionabout IAC and air shows.
(05:54):
What is the difference?
Because I have never been toan IAC competition before.
Um,
how do I make an analogy?
Uh, figure skating and icecapades.
That's the difference.
Um, so the IC so you guys are
wearing leotards.
No, no, no, not.
(06:16):
But one's a competition, one's a show.
So in a air show, you're trying to wildthe crowd and you're trying to entertain
and try to show 'em things that hopefullythey've never seen an airplane do before.
Depending upon what your act is, um,competition is about, you're in front of
judges and you're trying to fly the bestand the most precisely you possibly can.
(06:37):
And the person who fliespresents the flight.
The best wins.
And so this is all basedoff of precision flying?
Yes.
It's very, it's very, Imean, it's all precision.
Well, there's two contests in theunlimited level of competition.
There's what we call the classical,which is all about precision and
straight lines and perfect roles, anda, you know, a very precise sequence.
(07:00):
And then there's a freestyle, whichis more air show ish type flying,
trying to, you know, wow the judgesand show 'em things they haven't
seen before to come out on top.
Hmm.
And then what's the rules with, atan air show, you're flying in the
box and you can have spectators.
(07:20):
But at an IEC competition, is there a box?
I know that there's not,they can't advertise.
There's no big draw for spectators per se.
How does that work?
It's, uh, basically a, A rules.
So there is a box I.
For a competition, there's a, um,one kilometer by one kilometer,
(07:45):
walk by one kilometer box, and youhave to try to keep everything in.
If you go outside of that box,there's a, there's penalty points.
Um, but the big difference is atan air show, you can't have any
aerobatic energy directed at thecrowd for obvious safety reasons.
If something went wrong and they don'twant an airplane plowing into the crowd.
At a competition is aerobaticsdone both, you know, to the
(08:07):
judge's left and right, the x axisand forward 'em back the Y axis.
So there is energy aerobatic, energydirected where a crowd may be.
So because of FA rules, we can'tinvite people to come watch.
If people know there's a competitionthey wanna come out and watch,
that's fine, but it can't be an advbecause soon started advertising it.
(08:28):
In airshow, it starts falling underairshow rules, and now you can't have
energy directed at the crowd, and nowbasically you can't have a competition.
Interesting.
Okay.
So I know that you havea really funny story.
Um, would you tell us aboutyour first competition?
Oh yeah.
(08:49):
It was a disaster.
It was way fun.
Set the stage for us.
I, um, well, I was working for Mike Eyat the time, constructing and running
his aerobatic program at his school.
And, uh, my first competition,I flew in sportsman.
I flew decathlon.
Um, it was all psyched up.
Went into the box.
(09:09):
I did the first figure, totallyforgot about the second figure,
which meant the entire rest ofthe sequence went backwards.
So I got a pretty good score ofmy first figure, and I zeroed
the entire rest of the flight.
It didn't set off well andyou do more than one flight.
The second flight it, it was better.
It wasn't great, but with thatbasically big set zero from the
(09:31):
first flight, I think I came inlike last or second to last overall.
So I wasn't up to good start, butit kind of really got the juices
flowing and caught my interest and youknow, I just kept going from there.
When did you know that?
When did you know that'swhat you wanted to do?
(09:51):
Um, a competition I kind of stumbled upon.
I didn't know I wanted to do that.
What I wanted to do was an airshow pilot.
Uh, and that's always been my goal and my,my passion and what I've worked towards.
And while working towards that andtrying to figure out how to become
an airshow pilot and how to build myaerobatic skills and experience, I kind
of literally stumbled upon competitionby working in Michael's school and.
(10:16):
Once I did my first contest and hangaround a bunch of like-minded people
and you know, seeing I can do thissport and improve my skills and have
an actual way of measuring my skilland where the improvements are,
I just became fascinated with it.
So I get asked a lot, you know,would you like competition?
Do you like air shows?
Which like better And Ireally like 'em equally.
(10:37):
They're two kind of different things,but I enjoy 'em both quite a bit.
So there, I think there's a differenceto your flying in competition versus
air shows and, and just talking to someof the other cool people on your team.
Um, uh, it sounds like you'repulling way more Gs in a competition
(11:01):
and then your full power theentire time during an air show.
So would you be able to.
Elaborate a little bit more as tolike how the flying differs between
the competition and the air show.
Yeah.
I don't know if I would putit the way you just put it.
They, they are different.
Um, so again, with an air show,you're trying to do a show and you're
(11:23):
trying to be in front of the crowdand you're, you're setting a stage
and you're presenting a show to 'em.
So you're doing whatever it takesto put each figure exactly where it
needs to be in the box, present rightwith the crowd, and show it the best
that you can to be entertaining.
Uh, competition actually has a lot ofthe same elements 'cause you're trying
to present to the judges and you havea set box, but it's a lot more precise.
(11:43):
It's a lot more, I don't wanna saymore aggressive, but more assertive.
Hmm.
Um,
so it is a little bit harder pullsand, you know, if you're gonna pull
to a vertical line and then yougotta push to a vertical line, the
push has to look the same as a pull.
So it's really hard.
Pushes lots of negative G. Um,so yeah, it's, it's, you pull
more g it's a little more.
(12:04):
Brutal in the body.
Um, but there are someelements of transfer.
I always tell people that air showflying really kind of destroys your
competition skills 'cause it's a littlelooser and you can get away with stuff
and, but competition really improvesyour air show skills because it brings
an element of situational awareness andprecision and all that to your flying.
Hmm.
(12:27):
So you mentioned that you kind of gotyour start with, uh, competitions,
uh, while you were working forMike Gian, but how did you get
your start in flying in general?
Were you part of a flying family orwas that something you always wanted
to do, or how did you get into flying?
No, I, uh, nobody in my family flies.
I'm the only one, uh, I. Itstarted kind of really young.
(12:53):
I was three and two thingshappened when I was three.
Um, I saw St. Star Wars when itfirst came out and thought the
Millennium Falcon was the coolestthing I've ever seen in my life.
Obviously that kind
of sparked a flying interest.
Um, my mom, lot of people don't know this.
My mom, way back when, actually broughtme to local airport and they had a
penny, a pound for kids to go flying.
(13:13):
So I went flying in Cessna back then.
I don't remember anything about it, butshe told me I went up an Cessna back then.
Um, so I think that got myfascination with flying.
And then, um, it's kind of a long story,but I ended up going to an air show, saw
people flying upside down, and all themodels I had of airplanes after that were
hanging upside down from the ceiling.
(13:34):
I was just, I was just fascinated by it.
So that
was always the goal inthe back of my mind.
I didn't know how to get there.
I didn't know how to becomean air show pilot, but that's,
that's the journey I, I started.
I'm a big fan of this.
Part of the story where you are incollege, you picked a college specifically
because they had aerobatic airplanes.
(13:56):
But, um, can you go and talkabout the time that you were
walking around the airplane?
You're taking pictures and youmeet Oh, your, your first contact.
Your guy.
Yeah.
So I. I, I went to Daniel aftercollege and I got my degree in, uh,
aviation, aviation flight operations.
(14:16):
And that's where I learned howto fly and got all my ratings.
But being at the, uh, Nashville Airport inNew Hampshire, I was just walking around
the airport one day checking out airplanes'cause I'm an aviation geek like that.
And, um, I saw this gentlemanwashing a, a steam sky ball,
uh, kinda like a overgrown pits.
So I walked up to him andI thought it was, it was a
beautiful, beautiful airplane.
(14:37):
So I asked him if I couldtake a picture of it.
And he was like, yeah, butwould you rather go flying?
So I was like, yeah.
So he stuck me in the front.
We went flying and that wasmy very first loop and roll.
And that just kind ofreaffirmed everything.
I already know that, okay, thisis a cool thing ever and I wanna
do this for the rest of my life.
So he actually becamea really good friend.
I ended up flying his airplane a lot,built some Atic skills in that plane, and
(15:00):
to this day, he's one of my best friends.
Wow.
That's cool.
It's a good thing.
You were assertive as an 18-year-old, huh?
Yeah.
Well, at least I asked if I couldtake a picture of his airplane.
You okay?
Have a little funny side story to that.
Yeah, absolutely.
(15:21):
All right, so I think it wasmy sophomore, junior year of
college, um, his name is Ned.
He called me up and said, Hey, I'mgonna take the sky bolt out to Oshkosh.
Do you want to go?
It's like, yeah, I've neverbeen to Oshkosh before.
How cool would that be to show upmy first Oshkosh in a cool biplane?
So we jumped in this airplane andhad out one of our fuel stops was
planning on being, uh, Niagara Falls.
(15:43):
We're about 10 miles from the airportand all of a sudden there's oil on
the front, windscreen like, ah, crap.
So we land and we blewout the front prop seal.
So we ended up getting stuckovernight in Niagara Falls.
We stayed at the Bit O Paris Hotel,which I don't recommend to anyone ever.
Um, we had picked up with like a day anda half delay trying to get this Frank Seal
fixed and then we made it up to Oshkosh.
(16:04):
It was a great time.
So fast forward multiple, multiple years.
I get my first MX two and I call up Nedand say, Hey, I have my first airplane.
It's mine, two seater.
Lemme return the favor.
Jump in the front.
Let me take it.
Oshkosh.
Kind of like close the circle, like cool.
So he jumps in the front, we fly out.
My first fuel stop'sgonna be Niagara Falls.
(16:25):
Get about 10 miles from the airport.
The engine starts running like really bad.
So we land.
Turns out I got a clogged seal injector.
So we clean out the injector.
I go out to the runway just to afull power run to make sure it works.
My right tire goes flat, and whenit went flat, the way the brakes
was set up, it actually grinded thebrake line right off the c. Ah, so,
(16:49):
oh.
We got stuck there overnight.
Got it all fixed a couple days later.
Pull out there.
Had a great time at Oshkosh.
Please tell me, please tell meyou stayed in the same hotel.
No, no, no, we didn't.
I didn't.
I don't think it existed anymore.
That many years later.
On the way back to New Hampshire, I said,we are not stopping in Niagara Falls.
(17:13):
He goes, agree.
So we're flying over thetop of Niagara Falls.
And the engine starts running like crap.
End up on another CLO had NiagaraFalls, so him and I in an airplane,
we always have to stay at least100 miles away from Niagara Falls.
Oh, that's, oh man, that's terrible.
(17:34):
So how many times have you beenback to, uh, back to Oshkosh
since you go every year?
Fly in it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, for the past.
I dunno, eight years or so, nine years.
I've been flying it every year.
So quite a bit.
It's uh, I mean it's always amazing,but it's kind of part of the job now,
right?
Yeah.
It's probably different, um,flying in as an attendee than it is
(17:56):
flying in as a, uh, performer, huh?
Yeah.
It's a lot easier to get in.
You don't have to get line.
We kind of have our way ofgetting it, which is nice.
So when you're at Oshkosh.
What's it like taxiing around out there,trying to get up and go do your show?
(18:17):
That that place seems likeit's pretty clogged up.
It's horrible.
It's, I mean, it's, it's awesomebecause it's Oshkosh, right?
You're surrounded by airplanes onlike the mecca of aviation, but where
they parked, the performers is on the,uh, north side of the airport by the
weeks hanger, and we gotta relocatethe air show center for the show.
And if you just taxi there, literally it'slike 45 minutes to an hour to get there.
(18:41):
Trying to cross runways and all.
I mean, it's just, it's a nightmare.
So it's actually quicker.
To taxi out, take off on 9 2, 7, goout, practice cross over and land on
the other runway and get to show center.
That's like 25 minutes asopposed to an hour taxi,
including the practice.
(19:02):
Yep.
Way easy to fly to the otherside than just the taxi.
Yeah, that's, yeah, that's, that might bethe only airport in the world that, that
that's true during that week at least.
Excellent.
So you mentioned, youmentioned your MX two.
Um, tell me about your, um,the, the airplane you use in
competition and performance.
(19:26):
The one I was using,the one I'm using now,
I guess The one you were using.
Yeah.
It's important to note that you lostan airplane recently, didn't you?
Yeah.
Um, so I actually, I started off at anMX two, which is what I'm using now.
Um, I won the WorldAdvanced Atic Championships.
I did in 2008, and then 2011 I gotmy MXS, which is a single seater.
(19:50):
And, uh, it was kind of custom tailoredto things I wanted with the airplane.
I mean, a lot of MX experience by then.
I, everything worked, but Iknew what I wanted to work more.
Um, worked with the company and theywere gracious enough to trust me that.
Some ideas I had might actually workand they turned out that they did.
(20:11):
And it is just an amazing airplane.
I mean, it was an airplane that, anythingI thought of it, I could probably figure
out how to do it with that airplane.
The, uh, updates that you made toit or the changes that you had the
company help you make, um, to squeezea little extra performance, maybe a
little extra maneuverability out of it.
Um, what kind of thingsare you looking for there?
(20:33):
Uh.
Just more, you know, a lot ofpeople think less is more, and
I've always thought more is more.
So,
you know, it was little things like,um, we took the rudder and, um, I,
I am not an engineer and I'm totallytalking outta school, but my little
theory is that the top end of therudder kind of makes the rudder heavier.
It doesn't do that much work and actuallyadds a roll element to the airplane
(20:56):
because it's kinda like a big Aronsticking up and all the rudder down
the bottom kind of does all the work.
And doesn't add a rollout in it.
So we took area off the top of the rudder,added it to the bottom of the rudder.
We brought the rudder to apoint set of a curve, just
'cause it, it looks way cooler.
Um, the rudder used to have concaveskins on it, which adds stability.
(21:17):
And I, I don't want stability.
Who wants stability?
Right.
Exactly.
Put flats on it, which make themmore effective and less stability.
And we gave kind of ridiculousamount of deflection.
The rudder was already awesome and it justwas way more awesome once we did that.
And we made some changes to theelevator as far as area on it.
(21:38):
Um, the canopy, we took a RedBull race canopy and modified
with more glass, basically just'cause it looked really cool.
Who doesn't want theirairplane to look really cool?
Modified the cowling alittle bit at the wingtip.
Modified the seat.
Uh, so the way I wanted it to kind ofrefine and feel and just ended up with
(21:58):
the airplane in the ways that way thatit was, and amazingly, everything I want
changed actually worked really well.
So I got lucky.
Maybe you are an, anengineer, don't even know it.
Um, uh, I think I
just got lucky.
Right?
I have a feeling that your airplanemight be hard for a guy like me to fly.
(22:19):
Um, what's amazing about the MX airplanes.
Is that that, I mean, it's ahigh performance airplane, right?
So you have to have a little bit of askill set and that type of plane to fly
it, but to just get in and fly it around.
If you're a pretty confident air wheelpilot, it's a very easy airplane to fly.
You know, if you want to getin and fly from point A to
point B, it's a great airplane.
(22:40):
If you wanna do mildaerobatics, it's really easy.
Well, the amazing thing aboutit's when you really start pushing
things, you can just keep push.
You can keep asking it for more,and they'll keep giving it to.
So it's, it's not a hard airplane to fly.
Um, you gotta watch out for somethings when you really start pushing
it, but it, it just allows you tokeep growing with the airplane.
(23:01):
If you want more, it gives you more.
Hmm.
Well, are you, are you gonna do moreof the same, uh, with the airplane you
are, you're building to replace it?
Yeah, so, uh, I got a really goodrelationship with MX Aircraft.
MX Aircraft is under new ownership now.
(23:22):
There's a gentleman in Australiawho bought the company.
Really, really good guy.
Has a lot of great plans for it.
Um, but yeah, I've been working with him.
Uh, we've been on the phone alot and exchanging emails and.
He basically told me, you know,whatever things I want for the
airplane, he wants for the airplane.
'cause they obviously worked.
So it, um, on the outside it willlook a lot like the airplane I had,
(23:45):
uh, with some subtle changes here orthere to it, but it'll, it'll be cool.
It'll be.
If I can say it on a podcast,it'll be a badass airplane.
Absolutely.
You can say that.
So one other thing as we were, um,kind of talking about your, your
record, um, of seven US NationalChampionships, um, the person you're
(24:08):
tied with, how well do you know him?
Biller?
Yeah.
Um, un unfortunately I nevergot a chance to meet him.
Um, he is an amazing av.
I got to see him fly, uh,twice actually at Oshkosh.
Um, I mean, he was just unbelievable.
He was the man.
Um, obviously I've kind of studiedhim and read about him, has been
(24:31):
lucky enough to meet his daughters.
They've told me a lot about him andhe was, I mean, just kind of the king
of air show and competition flying.
What I loved about his show is thatespecially their show stuff, is that
there was always something going on.
I mean, if you blink, you're gonna misssomething, which is kind of how I've
always wanted to structure my show.
If you blink, you're gonna miss something.
(24:53):
I think that, uh, Kent had anopportunity to see Leo fly at least once.
Yeah, it was actually my very firstOshkosh that my dad took me to.
I believe it was 1987.
Um, and yeah, I remember threethings from Oshkosh that year.
One was the Voyager, which hadjust completed, its around the
(25:16):
world, non refueled flight.
Um, then there was the, uh,the Coors Light Silver Bullets.
Uh, it was a force ship formation ofBD five j's, little tiny experimental
jets, uh, that did an aerobatic act.
And.
I remember Leo Louden logger, and Iremember, I don't remember specific
(25:40):
things about his show, but yeah,I remember just being completely
blown away right from the beginning.
I mean, one of the things that wasdone back then that doesn't seem to get
done anymore was every performer did asnap roll at about 50 a GL on takeoff.
Um.
Then, I don't know if there were just toomany crashes doing that sort of thing or
(26:02):
what happened to that, but, um, yeah, Iremember, uh, at the beginning of Leo's
act right from that takeoff snap rollall the way through is just incredible.
Yep.
Just nonstop action.
It was great.
And then obviously as a competition pilot,I mean, his, his record speaks for itself.
He is a world champion and aseven time national atic champion,
(26:23):
so he was, he was incredible.
Yeah.
Speaking of, uh, now say,
uh, also about a letter thatyou wrote to Patty Wagstaff.
Could you talk about that a little bit?
Oh, I almost forgot about that.
Um, what are we going with it?
(26:43):
So.
One of the mechanics that used to work onher airplane is a guy named Dennis Sawyer.
Really, really amazing, um, mechanics,especially for erratic aircraft.
And he was outta myhome airport in Nashua.
So I remember being there one day and uh,there's Patty's airplane sitting there.
(27:03):
It's like, holy cow.
So I actually wrote a note to her,um, saying who I was and I was a fan.
I thought she was amazing and.
I wanted to get into the competitionsomeday and I can't remember
everything I wrote in the note andI literally just kind of reached
in and stuck it in her cockpit.
So like three or four weeks later,I got a letter in the mail and was a
(27:25):
signed thing from her saying she gotmy letter and definitely check out
the IAC and go for competition and gofor air shows and, you know, just kind
of patted me in the back through aletter, so to speak, and said Go for it.
How, uh, how early wasthat in your career?
Um, I was in college, so I don'tknow, it might've been like
(27:48):
my sophomore or junior year.
Okay.
So you, I mean, you knew that thatwas your goal for sure, and that
was before you had gotten that bigfat zero on your first competition.
Right?
Yeah, again, I think I talked to her moreabout um, airshow flying in competition.
'cause I really didn't knowa lot about competition yet.
Um, but airshows, since I wasa kid, was always the goal.
(28:12):
You know, there's never been a plan Bbecause if you have a Plan B, you kind
of fall back on it 'cause it's easier.
So I figured if I didn't havea plan B, I'd have no choice
but to somehow appeal plan A.
I like it.
Words of wisdom.
So speaking about how you kind of, um, atleast modeled, um, the amount of action
(28:35):
within your show after, after Leo'sshows, how would you say your style and
your approach to aerobatics, whetherit's air shows or competition, differs
from your colleagues or your competitors?
Depending on what we're talking about.
(28:56):
Um, I'm gonna talk very generally when Isay that because there's a lot of really
amazing performers out there, but I seea lot of people that watch other people
and try to copy what other people do.
And I kind of took the approach ofwatching other people, seeing what
they do, and then trying not to doany of that because who wants to watch
(29:17):
the same thing over and over again?
Um, I've always wantedto be different, unique.
I've wanted to try to make my own style.
I mean, I'm obviouslyinfluenced by people.
I'm influenced by like precisionto my Goan and the crate, uh, the
perceived craziness of Sean Tuckerand, um, a nonstop action of, of Leo.
But I, I want him to be.
(29:38):
Me, I didn't wanna be a copy of them.
Um, and I always ask a lot of questions.
Uh, I've just always been curiousabout aerobatics and why certain
things go a certain way andwhy certain things aren't done.
Um, and I would always get theanswer, well, just, you know,
the airplane can't do that.
I'd be like, well, why not?
(29:59):
I'd always like study it and thinkabout it and think about the physics
and the aerodynamics, the stereoscopics,and just try to figure new stuff out.
Try to think outside the boxand come up with new, new stuff.
So if you look at aerobatics andthe history of, especially with air
shows, it's like everybody does thesame thing and then someone comes
along and there's this like spike.
(30:20):
And then it plateaus again, and everyonecopies that person for 10, 15 years.
And it's all the samethings and there's a spike.
And when I kind of came into it,there was just this plateau going on.
Everyone was doing the same thing.
So just, you know, because I'm obsessedwith it, I try to think outside
the box and try to do my own thing.
And I just want to evolve the sport.
I wanna try to bring it to the nextlevel, come up with new things,
(30:43):
and then somewhere down the linesomeone can pick up on that and take
it to the next level, even beyond.
But it just, it has togrow and not be stagnant.
Right.
Interesting.
Okay, so it sounds like there's obviously,I mean this, this is pretty obvious.
There's a lot of creativity, um, thatgoes behind this and you get your
inspiration from a lot of other people,but try to take it to the next level.
(31:05):
Um, would you mind, um, goinginto a little bit your process of.
Of, you know, trying tofigure something out.
I mean, to a, a non aerobaticpilot like me, um, that sounds, you
know, a little scary and dangerous.
So how do you, what is your processof creativity as you kind of
try and figure these things out?
(31:26):
Is there a lot of ground time ordo you do it mostly in the air
or is it combination of both?
Uh, it takes a long time.
So, you know, people, includingother erratic pilots, they what
they see as the end result, right?
And they're like, oh, that'sreally cool and crazy, and then
they go out and try to do it.
What they don't see is that, you know,it starts off with like waking up
(31:47):
at two in the morning and going, ohman, I wonder if an airplane can do
what I just dreamt about, you know?
And then it's really just.
I'll think about it for months andmonths and months, and I'll think
about how do I manipulate the controls?
How do I manipulate thegyroscopic of the prop?
What's happening aerodynamically?
What could go wrong?
What could it develop into?
What's the end result ofholding the inputs in that I.
(32:09):
Position for too long, and you justkeep going over in your mind and
trying to think of all the variablesand, and what's actually happening.
And then you, then you try it inthe airplane and if you've thought
of it right, and it's actuallypossible, you kind of know right
away if it's gonna work or not.
And quite frankly, there's a lot oftimes you're like, okay, no, that's,
an airplane is never gonna do that.
(32:29):
But every now and then youfumble up on something where.
There is and there's potential.
Um, I do a thing, I callit the inside tumble.
You know, I saw planes tumblingnegatively for years when the nose goes
down and it tumbles around its access.
Yep.
And I always ask, why don'tthey tumble the other way?
And I got the answer thatthey just won't go that way.
Well, why not?
(32:51):
I mean, the airplane shouldn'tcare which way it's going.
Aerodynamics and gyroscopic.
Aerodynamics and gyroscopic.
Yeah.
And the airplane's notreally flying at that point.
Right.
So.
I, I mean, yeah.
I mean, yeah, it's, it's, it's along physics lesson, but, yeah.
Um, but so I, I thought about it foreverand I tried to figure out, and finally
(33:12):
one day I, I actually got it to work.
I was like, holy cow.
And then I couldn't get it to work againfor like a month, and then slowly I
figured out again and I practiced it.
And so what people don't see is likefrom when I first thought of it,
from when I figured it out to, when Ifinally introduced it to an air show,
it was almost two and a half years.
(33:34):
Wow.
That's people, it's, it's an
amazing maneuver.
I gotta say, I've watched it.
Um, and a lot of the maneuvers thatare kind of unique and different,
just, it's the same process.
It takes a long time Before I putin an air show, a question I get
a lot is, you know, what's thehardest figure you do in an air show?
And honestly, the answer is none of them.
Because if it was hard, I wouldn'tput it in a show because it
(33:55):
should be second nature and easy.
So you know what the, how it's gonna end.
And you know, for safetyreasons, when I first tried to
figure out it was pretty hard.
But by the time you actually put it in anair show, it shouldn't be hard anymore.
Huh.
Oh, that's really
interesting.
You have a quote here.
Uh, it's a disease to me, I'm consumedby the thought of flight on average.
(34:20):
How often, I mean, if this is wakingyou up at night, how often are
you, are you thinking about this?
It seems like you're kind of like amad scientist trying to engineer these
different maneuvers and, and pushingthese boundaries and capabilities.
But if you were to cognizantly,pay attention to how.
Often you're thinking about differentways to, to handle that airplane.
(34:42):
What, what would you sayabout on average a day is.
I mean, I don't know about averageper day, but it, it's all the time.
I mean, I'm, I'm, wait, how often are
you not thinking about
these maneuvers?
Well, there are a couple other thingsI enjoy, but we won't talk about that.
Um,
(35:03):
no, I, I'm.
I'm really thinking about it all the time.
It's just, I'm just consumed with it.
I mean, it's my passion.
I, I'm really lucky thatmy job is my hobby, right?
So I have the luxury ofthinking about it all the time.
I don't have to think about whatdo I have to do in the office
today, or other things like that.
So I can think about it all the time.
Yeah.
(35:23):
And, uh, yeah,
it's just, it is kind of like a
disease.
I'm just kind of obsessed with it.
So do you name any of the, the moves thatyou have for any of your other interests?
I'm just kidding.
Um,
that's,
that's good.
That's the best questionI've heard in a long time.
So, um, I, I do have a questionfor you, um, about that process
(35:47):
that you were talking about.
You're going into detail.
Thank you for that.
It's really interesting, um, when you'rethinking about whether, um, a plane can
do something that you're imagining, I. Doyou ever consult with the guys at, uh, MX
or do you ever talk to, um, aeronauticalengineers that you know, or anything like
that about how you might be able to do it?
Or is it sort of, um, something you,a process you go through on your own
(36:12):
and you kind of do it instinctively?
I, I go through it on my own.
I mean, I'm, I mean, it's the mostrespectful way, but most of those
people are the ones who will tellyou that you, you can't do that.
You can't do it.
Yeah.
So I don't really consult them.
Um, no, I just think about it on my own.
I just kind of obsess on it andbroad diagrams and think about it
(36:32):
and practice it, and yeah, just,it's mostly just me and my mind.
And like I said.
You know, if I come up with 10ideas, two of them might work.
Yeah.
So there's, there's a lot of failure too,and there's a lot of things you figure
out, okay, that's kinda ridiculous.
An airplane can't do that.
Well, maybe your next airplane,can you gonna try 'em all again?
(36:53):
Yeah, maybe.
Maybe.
We'll see.
There's way more stuffto be done out there.
So if I can go with a couple more things.
Huh?
Do you write 'em down?
Okay.
So you can remember what you've beenthinking about and, you know, doing
thought processes in your head about?
No.
(37:14):
Um,
I, I mean, like I said, it'skinda like a disease, so I haven't
really forgotten any of my ideas.
Huh.
And I don't really write 'em down.
You are
a imaginist.
I'm more likely to lose the paper thatI write it down on that I'm, forget it.
So
interesting.
It's like a craftsman of aviation.
(37:35):
Yeah.
You know, talking about writing stuffdown, we can segue into, uh, what you
wrote down on the piece of paper thatyou wanted to be US National Champion.
We, what she talked about is.
Basically that first contest, youknow, it was, it was eye-opening and
I realized that this is another aspectof aerobatics that I really want to do.
And, uh, I just kind of told myself,I said, in 10 years I'm gonna be
(37:58):
the national aerobatic champion.
That's what, that was my goal to work on.
And it was almost 10 years for the monththat I won my first national championship.
And you have continued to win every year.
Thereafter.
Yeah.
So, so I gotta ask you about that goalthat you wrote down for yourself, um,
(38:21):
about being national champion in 10 yearsand then doing it almost to the day.
I mean, it sounds likea movie script, right?
Yeah.
How much pressure were you puttingyourself under that first year you won it?
I mean, was this something that you feltlike it's do or die, this is my 10 years?
Or had you kind of forgot aboutit until after you did it?
No, I have a pretty, I got a uniqueway of approaching competition.
(38:47):
I wish more people would do this'cause they probably fly better.
Um, it competition or bads isnot a defensive sport, right?
There's nothing I can do to manipulatewhat someone else is gonna do
in their cockpit when they fly.
So the only thing I can do is go outthere and fly the best that I can and try
to fly better than I flew yesterday orthe day before that, or day before that.
(39:08):
And that's always been my approach.
So I don't get nervous with the judges.
I don't get nervous with the competition.
'cause I mean, you are kind of competingagainst everybody, but I'm really
just competing against myself, tryingto be the best pilot that I can be.
It's all about self-improvement.
So I didn't really put alot of pressure on myself.
It just, it ended up being 10 yearslater, I was at the nationals.
I was flying unlimited and I won.
(39:32):
Just worked out, huh?
Just like that.
Meanwhile, the rest ofus are like, holy cow.
That's incredible,
huh?
So you're saying that your biggestcompetition is Rob Holland?
I.
Absolutely.
That's some stiffcompetition you got there.
(39:53):
Well, well, I mean, every, everyone'scompetition in is really themselves.
Who else can they compete against?
True.
Right?
It's if, if you beat everybody else,but you flew worse than you did
last time, to me, that's not a win.
Maybe there should besome defensive flying.
How, how cool would itbe for like a, a combat.
(40:13):
Um, you, national championship.
Yeah.
I, I think they do that.
It's called the military.
Oh,
I was gonna
say.
Yeah, right.
Absolutely.
When you said that you, you,there's, it's not a defensive sport.
There's nothing you can do.
I started thinking,wow, what if you could,
(40:33):
yeah.
Well,
nothing you can legitimatelydo not, not being sportsman.
Huh.
So what you're saying then is you'regonna be going for your eighth
national championship this, this fall.
Mm-hmm.
Um, yep.
And you're gonna get in that cockpit,and it's gonna be like any other
(40:56):
competition because you're justgonna try and fly better than you
did the day before in practice.
Yeah.
And that's, it's probably oneof the biggest advantages I have
is that I don't get nervous.
I'm not, you know, desperately watchingthe other guy to see how he does.
'cause it doesn't reallymatter how he does.
I'm, I gotta fly as good as I can.
(41:18):
I'll watch him for cues and, youknow, see what the wind's doing and
whether they're getting blown andhow I'm gonna adjust my sequence.
But it's.
It's really, it's really acompetition against myself.
I mean, my goal all along has been tobe the best atic pilot that I can be,
and I don't feel like I'm there yet.
I feel like I still have quitea ways to go to be the best
(41:39):
atic pilot that I can be.
So that's one of thereasons for competition.
It makes you push yourself, it makes you.
It puts you in front of the judgesso you can actually measure where
you are and how you're doing.
Hmm.
So all the airshows that you'regonna do over the summer, which
is airshow season of course.
Um, mm-hmm.
The conventional wisdom, likeyou said, uh, at the top of the
(42:00):
interview, um, is that it's gonnamake your flying less precise.
When do you cut that off and startpreparing for the, the competition?
It is, it's tough.
I mean, competition, I'm sorry.
Air shows do help competition asmall way, basically for positioning
(42:20):
and being able to put figuresexactly where you want to put 'em.
Because flying in an air show, it's ifyou're doing it right, it's about that.
It's putting stuff where youwant 'em to be most entertaining.
So that side of it kind of helps.
And I try to take a consciouseffort to make everything in my
air show as precise as I can to tryto keep the competition skills up.
But I'll take a few weeks duringthe season and say, okay, this week
(42:43):
I'm gonna do a camp with some peopleand I'm gonna practice competition.
I'm gonna brain dump air shows for thisweek, practice competition stuff, and
then I'll just turn back on air show stuffnext week when I start doing that again.
And then I'll also take a week anda half to two weeks right before the
nationals and dedicate that time tojust practicing competition stuff,
trying to turn off air show mode andget back into the competition mode.
(43:07):
It's tough.
It's not a, not a very easy balancing act.
It's, it's
pretty
kind of
a state of mind, butthat's, that's how I do it.
Do you, do you set the airplane upany differently for competition?
No.
Um,
I used to, and then I realizedby doing that I was kind of
(43:29):
flying two different airplanes.
Mm-hmm.
And, you know, I was set up in certain,I won't get into all the details, but
certain ways it made, like some of theair shows stuff a little bit easier.
But it made some of the competition stuffa little bit harder and I, I just stopped.
I figured, you know what, why don'tI just get better at the air show
stuff so I don't have to make iteasier myself, you know, become,
(43:51):
I think that's the better option.
And then I'm flying the same airplaneall the time and you know, in the long
run, it just makes everything easier.
All right.
So I know that you are.
Pretty big on Instagram and yoursocial media, Facebook especially,
but I always see you hashtagging fly.
(44:14):
Good.
Don't suck.
Is that original to Rob Holland or what'sthe, what's the history behind that?
Uh, 2011 at the World Airat Championships in Italy.
Um, one of my teammates there,Tim Justs, was getting ready to
go and he was kind of nervous.
(44:34):
You know, he is at his firstworld championship in front
of international judges and.
A lot of pressure.
And, uh, Jesse was closing the canopy.
I, I kind of don't knowwhere it came from.
I just tried to be funny andcheer him up a little bit.
I kind of stuck my head and was like,Hey, man, fly good and don't suck.
And he kind of chuckled andI was like, you know, that
actually kind of makes sense.
And it kind of sums everything up.
So when everyone would go fly, I'd justtell him to fly good and don't suck.
(44:58):
And it just kind of,it just kind of stuck.
It just kind of ran, ran from there.
Became your tagline almost Huh?
The aerobatic version of Break a Leg.
Kinda, yeah.
Yeah.
That's pretty good.
I saw you opened up astore on your website too.
Looks like you guys have those, uh,shirts available and all kinds of swag.
(45:21):
Yeah.
Lot good.
Don't suck shirts.
Yep.
Simplest thing.
Well, now I want one.
I know.
Me too.
Ww.
Always, always time to plug your website.
(45:42):
Exactly.
That's pretty good.
So Rob, where else can people findyou on Twitter and Facebook and
Instagram and all those places?
Uh, Facebook.
It's facebook.com/ultimateAirshows, Instagram and Twitter.
It's uh, Rob Holland, 5 1 5 0.
(46:03):
What is 5 1 5 0.
Well, I'm a big Van Halen fan.
They had an album 51 50, but what51 50 is, is a, uh, California
Police Code for Crazy and Insane.
Yeah,
I was wondering.
All right.
Yeah, that's pretty good.
(46:26):
Well, Rob, we thank you so much for comingand talking to us a little bit tonight.
And we appreciate the insights intoyour process and, and best of luck to
you going forward in your air showsthis summer, but also in the, what
I think is a very important nationalchampionship coming up in the fall.
Yep.
It's, uh, it's, it's a big one.
(46:47):
I will, uh, do what I alwaysdo is show up and do my best.
You'll fly good and not suck.
I'll fly Good and not suck.
Well, cool.
We'll be paying attention anddefinitely rooting you on.
Where, where's, appreciate that.
Oh, I was gonna askwhere's the competition?
But are you even allowed to say,
is that the Nationals promoting?
(47:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's gotta be an it's, it'sactually at Oshkosh this year.
Hmm.
Like.
Yep.
And is it usually after Osh the
place, not Oshkosh, the event.
Oh, got it.
Osh got it.
Oshkosh, believe it or not,does actually exist the other
51 weeks a year I've been there.
(47:29):
It, it's at Whitman Field and Oshkosh.
It is not an air venture.
Oh, darn.
Very precise language there.
Yep.
Yeah.
Excellent.
Well, thanks again, Rob.
My pleasure.
Thank you guys.
Thanks for joining us for anotherepisode of the Pilot Cast.
If you wanna learn more about us, goahead and check us out on Facebook,
(47:50):
the Pilot cast, and our Instagram page.
We'll see you next time.
Pilot Cast is edited by Bill Williams andSteve Tupper is in charge of the music.
The Air crew is made up of TiffanyWolf, Kent Shook, and Bill Williams.
(48:10):
You can find contact information forthe entire pilot, cast, crew, and
detail from each episode@pilotcast.com.
We want to hear from you, soplease contact us with ideas,
feedback, and suggestions atpilots@pilotcast.com or reach out to
us on Instagram, Facebook, or Twitter.
All under the moniker Pilot Cast.
(48:31):
We really appreciate you listening.
Find this and other great showsat the Aviation Media Network,
the voices in your head.
(49:01):
I am at a gas station.
Works for me.
Do you ever get dizzy?
Are you scared?
Do you throw up?
Are you crazy?
Really?
We didn't want the margarita machine toturn off and Patty Wagstaff was behind it
serving, so I just don't have good wifiat my house, so I have to come up here.
(49:26):
Whoa, coyote.
Welcome back.
SPC listeners.
I'm really sorry for the long absence,but it turns out becoming a full-time
flight instructor while also working intechnology and another job and figuring
out how to be good at that whole flightinstruction thing makes a lot of other
things in my life head to the backburner, but I couldn't wait on this one
(00:23):
We're again reaching into the archives.
But from a different podcast and adifferent time, but it's timely because
of the tragic events of this past weekend.
I hope you love this blast from the past.
(00:59):
Okay, so this past weekend we lost one ofthe greats from the air show circuit and
from aerobatic competition in Rob Holland.
But this episode is not about thetragic accident that took his life,
but rather a fond personal memory.
When Kent, Tiffany and I interviewed Robfor the pilot cast way back in 2018, I
(01:24):
figured since the Pilotcast is no longerbeing hosted anywhere anymore, and
the audio is effectively lost from thePodosphere, I'd stick it back in and I'd
do it here on the student pilot cast feed.
I hope you enjoy what was originallyreleased as episode 90 of the pilot
cast rereleased here as episode83 of the student pilot cast.
(01:49):
Listen to Rob Holland.
Give us a glimpse into theprocess and the preparation of
one of the greatest of all time
The episode is included here in itsentirety, including the intro, the
music, and the outro of the old pilot.
Cast a welcome blast fromthe past if you ask me.
(02:09):
Enjoy.
Welcome to another episodeof the Pilot, episode 90.
This is Pilot Tiffany.
Hi Bill.
And Pilot Kent.
And today we have aspecial guest, Rob Holland.
(02:38):
Yeah, so we,
I, I think we're, uh, we're maybe onthe path to having new call signs.
'cause, you know, after this wholemuting us for like eight years.
Uh, bill is here to, for called Buttons,
but you know, we had a little bit of adebacle, uh, scheduling tonight's episode.
(03:03):
Uh, Tiffany was having trouble withtime zones and math and tried to clarify
something and actually made it worse.
So I think we're gonna have to callTiffany Breitling and here's why.
She looks really good and everybodywants her because she looks good,
(03:23):
but nobody should be using herto tell time on a daily basis.
You know, I knew it, but I didn'trealize you had a whole backstory, Kent.
That's great.
Look, I'm gonna just, I'm gonnaput this out there right now.
If anyone out there from Brightlingis listening, I would be more
(03:43):
than happy to wear your watch.
All right, Kent, you're, you'regonna get one here really soon.
Yeah.
I just have to dosomething stupid, I guess.
Well, hey, our next podcastis coming up soon, so.
Actually, what's your wife's phone number?
(04:05):
Oh boy.
She's probably got a list going, so,
yeah.
No, I'm kidding.
So we've got a special treat today.
Uh, we've got Rob Holland withus to talk about some of his.
Aerobatic flying.
Rob is an airshow pilot anda champion aerobatic pilot.
(04:26):
He's, uh, IAC and US National AerobaticChampionship and I believe that's
seven time US National Champion.
Uh, welcome Rob.
We're happy to have you.
Thanks.
Good to be here.
Excellent.
So there's a lot of stuff that wecan talk to you about, but I want
to start with kind of the obvious.
(04:47):
Um, you've won the, the USNational Championships seven times.
Seven times in a row.
In fact, I think.
Is that right?
Yeah, that's correct.
I've, uh, I've gotten prettygood at fooling the judges,
so it's gone pretty well.
Well, it's important to point out forthose who don't follow that, that that
is, um, only been done by one otherperson, uh, ever to win at seven times,
(05:12):
and you've got an opportunity to breakthat record coming up here in the fall.
How are you feeling about that?
Yeah, uh, I'm feeling pretty good.
I mean, we'll see how it goes.
I'm gonna practice hard this year andgo to the nationals and do my best.
And uh, you know, as long asI flew better than I did last
time, then that's a win for me.
So.
(05:32):
So do you, do you critique yourselfa lot after those competitions?
Oh, always.
You know, if there's video, I'm alwayswatching myself and trying to critique and
trying to figure out what I can do better.
And there's, there's always things toimprove upon, so, yeah, it's just a,
it's an endless quest to get better.
Okay.
So I have a questionabout IAC and air shows.
(05:54):
What is the difference?
Because I have never been toan IAC competition before.
Um,
how do I make an analogy?
Uh, figure skating and icecapades.
That's the difference.
Um, so the IC so you guys are
wearing leotards.
No, no, no, not.
(06:16):
But one's a competition, one's a show.
So in a air show, you're trying to wildthe crowd and you're trying to entertain
and try to show 'em things that hopefullythey've never seen an airplane do before.
Depending upon what your act is, um,competition is about, you're in front of
judges and you're trying to fly the bestand the most precisely you possibly can.
(06:37):
And the person who fliespresents the flight.
The best wins.
And so this is all basedoff of precision flying?
Yes.
It's very, it's very, Imean, it's all precision.
Well, there's two contests in theunlimited level of competition.
There's what we call the classical,which is all about precision and
straight lines and perfect roles, anda, you know, a very precise sequence.
(07:00):
And then there's a freestyle, whichis more air show ish type flying,
trying to, you know, wow the judgesand show 'em things they haven't
seen before to come out on top.
Hmm.
And then what's the rules with, atan air show, you're flying in the
box and you can have spectators.
(07:20):
But at an IEC competition, is there a box?
I know that there's not,they can't advertise.
There's no big draw for spectators per se.
How does that work?
It's, uh, basically a, A rules.
So there is a box I.
For a competition, there's a, um,one kilometer by one kilometer,
(07:45):
walk by one kilometer box, and youhave to try to keep everything in.
If you go outside of that box,there's a, there's penalty points.
Um, but the big difference is atan air show, you can't have any
aerobatic energy directed at thecrowd for obvious safety reasons.
If something went wrong and they don'twant an airplane plowing into the crowd.
At a competition is aerobaticsdone both, you know, to the
(08:07):
judge's left and right, the x axisand forward 'em back the Y axis.
So there is energy aerobatic, energydirected where a crowd may be.
So because of FA rules, we can'tinvite people to come watch.
If people know there's a competitionthey wanna come out and watch,
that's fine, but it can't be an advbecause soon started advertising it.
(08:28):
In airshow, it starts falling underairshow rules, and now you can't have
energy directed at the crowd, and nowbasically you can't have a competition.
Interesting.
Okay.
So I know that you havea really funny story.
Um, would you tell us aboutyour first competition?
Oh yeah.
(08:49):
It was a disaster.
It was way fun.
Set the stage for us.
I, um, well, I was working for Mike Eyat the time, constructing and running
his aerobatic program at his school.
And, uh, my first competition,I flew in sportsman.
I flew decathlon.
Um, it was all psyched up.
Went into the box.
(09:09):
I did the first figure, totallyforgot about the second figure,
which meant the entire rest ofthe sequence went backwards.
So I got a pretty good score ofmy first figure, and I zeroed
the entire rest of the flight.
It didn't set off well andyou do more than one flight.
The second flight it, it was better.
It wasn't great, but with thatbasically big set zero from the
(09:31):
first flight, I think I came inlike last or second to last overall.
So I wasn't up to good start, butit kind of really got the juices
flowing and caught my interest and youknow, I just kept going from there.
When did you know that?
When did you know that'swhat you wanted to do?
(09:51):
Um, a competition I kind of stumbled upon.
I didn't know I wanted to do that.
What I wanted to do was an airshow pilot.
Uh, and that's always been my goal and my,my passion and what I've worked towards.
And while working towards that andtrying to figure out how to become
an airshow pilot and how to build myaerobatic skills and experience, I kind
of literally stumbled upon competitionby working in Michael's school and.
(10:16):
Once I did my first contest and hangaround a bunch of like-minded people
and you know, seeing I can do thissport and improve my skills and have
an actual way of measuring my skilland where the improvements are,
I just became fascinated with it.
So I get asked a lot, you know,would you like competition?
Do you like air shows?
Which like better And Ireally like 'em equally.
(10:37):
They're two kind of different things,but I enjoy 'em both quite a bit.
So there, I think there's a differenceto your flying in competition versus
air shows and, and just talking to someof the other cool people on your team.
Um, uh, it sounds like you'repulling way more Gs in a competition
(11:01):
and then your full power theentire time during an air show.
So would you be able to.
Elaborate a little bit more as tolike how the flying differs between
the competition and the air show.
Yeah.
I don't know if I would putit the way you just put it.
They, they are different.
Um, so again, with an air show,you're trying to do a show and you're
(11:23):
trying to be in front of the crowdand you're, you're setting a stage
and you're presenting a show to 'em.
So you're doing whatever it takesto put each figure exactly where it
needs to be in the box, present rightwith the crowd, and show it the best
that you can to be entertaining.
Uh, competition actually has a lot ofthe same elements 'cause you're trying
to present to the judges and you havea set box, but it's a lot more precise.
(11:43):
It's a lot more, I don't wanna saymore aggressive, but more assertive.
Hmm.
Um,
so it is a little bit harder pullsand, you know, if you're gonna pull
to a vertical line and then yougotta push to a vertical line, the
push has to look the same as a pull.
So it's really hard.
Pushes lots of negative G. Um,so yeah, it's, it's, you pull
more g it's a little more.
(12:04):
Brutal in the body.
Um, but there are someelements of transfer.
I always tell people that air showflying really kind of destroys your
competition skills 'cause it's a littlelooser and you can get away with stuff
and, but competition really improvesyour air show skills because it brings
an element of situational awareness andprecision and all that to your flying.
Hmm.
(12:27):
So you mentioned that you kind of gotyour start with, uh, competitions,
uh, while you were working forMike Gian, but how did you get
your start in flying in general?
Were you part of a flying family orwas that something you always wanted
to do, or how did you get into flying?
No, I, uh, nobody in my family flies.
I'm the only one, uh, I. Itstarted kind of really young.
(12:53):
I was three and two thingshappened when I was three.
Um, I saw St. Star Wars when itfirst came out and thought the
Millennium Falcon was the coolestthing I've ever seen in my life.
Obviously that kind
of sparked a flying interest.
Um, my mom, lot of people don't know this.
My mom, way back when, actually broughtme to local airport and they had a
penny, a pound for kids to go flying.
(13:13):
So I went flying in Cessna back then.
I don't remember anything about it, butshe told me I went up an Cessna back then.
Um, so I think that got myfascination with flying.
And then, um, it's kind of a long story,but I ended up going to an air show, saw
people flying upside down, and all themodels I had of airplanes after that were
hanging upside down from the ceiling.
(13:34):
I was just, I was just fascinated by it.
So that
was always the goal inthe back of my mind.
I didn't know how to get there.
I didn't know how to becomean air show pilot, but that's,
that's the journey I, I started.
I'm a big fan of this.
Part of the story where you are incollege, you picked a college specifically
because they had aerobatic airplanes.
(13:56):
But, um, can you go and talkabout the time that you were
walking around the airplane?
You're taking pictures and youmeet Oh, your, your first contact.
Your guy.
Yeah.
So I. I, I went to Daniel aftercollege and I got my degree in, uh,
aviation, aviation flight operations.
(14:16):
And that's where I learned howto fly and got all my ratings.
But being at the, uh, Nashville Airport inNew Hampshire, I was just walking around
the airport one day checking out airplanes'cause I'm an aviation geek like that.
And, um, I saw this gentlemanwashing a, a steam sky ball,
uh, kinda like a overgrown pits.
So I walked up to him andI thought it was, it was a
beautiful, beautiful airplane.
(14:37):
So I asked him if I couldtake a picture of it.
And he was like, yeah, butwould you rather go flying?
So I was like, yeah.
So he stuck me in the front.
We went flying and that wasmy very first loop and roll.
And that just kind ofreaffirmed everything.
I already know that, okay, thisis a cool thing ever and I wanna
do this for the rest of my life.
So he actually becamea really good friend.
I ended up flying his airplane a lot,built some Atic skills in that plane, and
(15:00):
to this day, he's one of my best friends.
Wow.
That's cool.
It's a good thing.
You were assertive as an 18-year-old, huh?
Yeah.
Well, at least I asked if I couldtake a picture of his airplane.
You okay?
Have a little funny side story to that.
Yeah, absolutely.
(15:21):
All right, so I think it wasmy sophomore, junior year of
college, um, his name is Ned.
He called me up and said, Hey, I'mgonna take the sky bolt out to Oshkosh.
Do you want to go?
It's like, yeah, I've neverbeen to Oshkosh before.
How cool would that be to show upmy first Oshkosh in a cool biplane?
So we jumped in this airplane andhad out one of our fuel stops was
planning on being, uh, Niagara Falls.
(15:43):
We're about 10 miles from the airportand all of a sudden there's oil on
the front, windscreen like, ah, crap.
So we land and we blewout the front prop seal.
So we ended up getting stuckovernight in Niagara Falls.
We stayed at the Bit O Paris Hotel,which I don't recommend to anyone ever.
Um, we had picked up with like a day anda half delay trying to get this Frank Seal
fixed and then we made it up to Oshkosh.
(16:04):
It was a great time.
So fast forward multiple, multiple years.
I get my first MX two and I call up Nedand say, Hey, I have my first airplane.
It's mine, two seater.
Lemme return the favor.
Jump in the front.
Let me take it.
Oshkosh.
Kind of like close the circle, like cool.
So he jumps in the front, we fly out.
My first fuel stop'sgonna be Niagara Falls.
(16:25):
Get about 10 miles from the airport.
The engine starts running like really bad.
So we land.
Turns out I got a clogged seal injector.
So we clean out the injector.
I go out to the runway just to afull power run to make sure it works.
My right tire goes flat, and whenit went flat, the way the brakes
was set up, it actually grinded thebrake line right off the c. Ah, so,
(16:49):
oh.
We got stuck there overnight.
Got it all fixed a couple days later.
Pull out there.
Had a great time at Oshkosh.
Please tell me, please tell meyou stayed in the same hotel.
No, no, no, we didn't.
I didn't.
I don't think it existed anymore.
That many years later.
On the way back to New Hampshire, I said,we are not stopping in Niagara Falls.
(17:13):
He goes, agree.
So we're flying over thetop of Niagara Falls.
And the engine starts running like crap.
End up on another CLO had NiagaraFalls, so him and I in an airplane,
we always have to stay at least100 miles away from Niagara Falls.
Oh, that's, oh man, that's terrible.
(17:34):
So how many times have you beenback to, uh, back to Oshkosh
since you go every year?
Fly in it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, for the past.
I dunno, eight years or so, nine years.
I've been flying it every year.
So quite a bit.
It's uh, I mean it's always amazing,but it's kind of part of the job now,
right?
Yeah.
It's probably different, um,flying in as an attendee than it is
(17:56):
flying in as a, uh, performer, huh?
Yeah.
It's a lot easier to get in.
You don't have to get line.
We kind of have our way ofgetting it, which is nice.
So when you're at Oshkosh.
What's it like taxiing around out there,trying to get up and go do your show?
(18:17):
That that place seems likeit's pretty clogged up.
It's horrible.
It's, I mean, it's, it's awesomebecause it's Oshkosh, right?
You're surrounded by airplanes onlike the mecca of aviation, but where
they parked, the performers is on the,uh, north side of the airport by the
weeks hanger, and we gotta relocatethe air show center for the show.
And if you just taxi there, literally it'slike 45 minutes to an hour to get there.
(18:41):
Trying to cross runways and all.
I mean, it's just, it's a nightmare.
So it's actually quicker.
To taxi out, take off on 9 2, 7, goout, practice cross over and land on
the other runway and get to show center.
That's like 25 minutes asopposed to an hour taxi,
including the practice.
(19:02):
Yep.
Way easy to fly to the otherside than just the taxi.
Yeah, that's, yeah, that's, that might bethe only airport in the world that, that
that's true during that week at least.
Excellent.
So you mentioned, youmentioned your MX two.
Um, tell me about your, um,the, the airplane you use in
competition and performance.
(19:26):
The one I was using,the one I'm using now,
I guess The one you were using.
Yeah.
It's important to note that you lostan airplane recently, didn't you?
Yeah.
Um, so I actually, I started off at anMX two, which is what I'm using now.
Um, I won the WorldAdvanced Atic Championships.
I did in 2008, and then 2011 I gotmy MXS, which is a single seater.
(19:50):
And, uh, it was kind of custom tailoredto things I wanted with the airplane.
I mean, a lot of MX experience by then.
I, everything worked, but Iknew what I wanted to work more.
Um, worked with the company and theywere gracious enough to trust me that.
Some ideas I had might actually workand they turned out that they did.
(20:11):
And it is just an amazing airplane.
I mean, it was an airplane that, anythingI thought of it, I could probably figure
out how to do it with that airplane.
The, uh, updates that you made toit or the changes that you had the
company help you make, um, to squeezea little extra performance, maybe a
little extra maneuverability out of it.
Um, what kind of thingsare you looking for there?
(20:33):
Uh.
Just more, you know, a lot ofpeople think less is more, and
I've always thought more is more.
So,
you know, it was little things like,um, we took the rudder and, um, I,
I am not an engineer and I'm totallytalking outta school, but my little
theory is that the top end of therudder kind of makes the rudder heavier.
It doesn't do that much work and actuallyadds a roll element to the airplane
(20:56):
because it's kinda like a big Aronsticking up and all the rudder down
the bottom kind of does all the work.
And doesn't add a rollout in it.
So we took area off the top of the rudder,added it to the bottom of the rudder.
We brought the rudder to apoint set of a curve, just
'cause it, it looks way cooler.
Um, the rudder used to have concaveskins on it, which adds stability.
(21:17):
And I, I don't want stability.
Who wants stability?
Right.
Exactly.
Put flats on it, which make themmore effective and less stability.
And we gave kind of ridiculousamount of deflection.
The rudder was already awesome and it justwas way more awesome once we did that.
And we made some changes to theelevator as far as area on it.
(21:38):
Um, the canopy, we took a RedBull race canopy and modified
with more glass, basically just'cause it looked really cool.
Who doesn't want theirairplane to look really cool?
Modified the cowling alittle bit at the wingtip.
Modified the seat.
Uh, so the way I wanted it to kind ofrefine and feel and just ended up with
(21:58):
the airplane in the ways that way thatit was, and amazingly, everything I want
changed actually worked really well.
So I got lucky.
Maybe you are an, anengineer, don't even know it.
Um, uh, I think I
just got lucky.
Right?
I have a feeling that your airplanemight be hard for a guy like me to fly.
(22:19):
Um, what's amazing about the MX airplanes.
Is that that, I mean, it's ahigh performance airplane, right?
So you have to have a little bit of askill set and that type of plane to fly
it, but to just get in and fly it around.
If you're a pretty confident air wheelpilot, it's a very easy airplane to fly.
You know, if you want to getin and fly from point A to
point B, it's a great airplane.
(22:40):
If you wanna do mildaerobatics, it's really easy.
Well, the amazing thing aboutit's when you really start pushing
things, you can just keep push.
You can keep asking it for more,and they'll keep giving it to.
So it's, it's not a hard airplane to fly.
Um, you gotta watch out for somethings when you really start pushing
it, but it, it just allows you tokeep growing with the airplane.
(23:01):
If you want more, it gives you more.
Hmm.
Well, are you, are you gonna do moreof the same, uh, with the airplane you
are, you're building to replace it?
Yeah, so, uh, I got a really goodrelationship with MX Aircraft.
MX Aircraft is under new ownership now.
(23:22):
There's a gentleman in Australiawho bought the company.
Really, really good guy.
Has a lot of great plans for it.
Um, but yeah, I've been working with him.
Uh, we've been on the phone alot and exchanging emails and.
He basically told me, you know,whatever things I want for the
airplane, he wants for the airplane.
'cause they obviously worked.
So it, um, on the outside it willlook a lot like the airplane I had,
(23:45):
uh, with some subtle changes here orthere to it, but it'll, it'll be cool.
It'll be.
If I can say it on a podcast,it'll be a badass airplane.
Absolutely.
You can say that.
So one other thing as we were, um,kind of talking about your, your
record, um, of seven US NationalChampionships, um, the person you're
(24:08):
tied with, how well do you know him?
Biller?
Yeah.
Um, un unfortunately I nevergot a chance to meet him.
Um, he is an amazing av.
I got to see him fly, uh,twice actually at Oshkosh.
Um, I mean, he was just unbelievable.
He was the man.
Um, obviously I've kind of studiedhim and read about him, has been
(24:31):
lucky enough to meet his daughters.
They've told me a lot about him andhe was, I mean, just kind of the king
of air show and competition flying.
What I loved about his show is thatespecially their show stuff, is that
there was always something going on.
I mean, if you blink, you're gonna misssomething, which is kind of how I've
always wanted to structure my show.
If you blink, you're gonna miss something.
(24:53):
I think that, uh, Kent had anopportunity to see Leo fly at least once.
Yeah, it was actually my very firstOshkosh that my dad took me to.
I believe it was 1987.
Um, and yeah, I remember threethings from Oshkosh that year.
One was the Voyager, which hadjust completed, its around the
(25:16):
world, non refueled flight.
Um, then there was the, uh,the Coors Light Silver Bullets.
Uh, it was a force ship formation ofBD five j's, little tiny experimental
jets, uh, that did an aerobatic act.
And.
I remember Leo Louden logger, and Iremember, I don't remember specific
(25:40):
things about his show, but yeah,I remember just being completely
blown away right from the beginning.
I mean, one of the things that wasdone back then that doesn't seem to get
done anymore was every performer did asnap roll at about 50 a GL on takeoff.
Um.
Then, I don't know if there were just toomany crashes doing that sort of thing or
(26:02):
what happened to that, but, um, yeah, Iremember, uh, at the beginning of Leo's
act right from that takeoff snap rollall the way through is just incredible.
Yep.
Just nonstop action.
It was great.
And then obviously as a competition pilot,I mean, his, his record speaks for itself.
He is a world champion and aseven time national atic champion,
(26:23):
so he was, he was incredible.
Yeah.
Speaking of, uh, now say,
uh, also about a letter thatyou wrote to Patty Wagstaff.
Could you talk about that a little bit?
Oh, I almost forgot about that.
Um, what are we going with it?
(26:43):
So.
One of the mechanics that used to work onher airplane is a guy named Dennis Sawyer.
Really, really amazing, um, mechanics,especially for erratic aircraft.
And he was outta myhome airport in Nashua.
So I remember being there one day and uh,there's Patty's airplane sitting there.
(27:03):
It's like, holy cow.
So I actually wrote a note to her,um, saying who I was and I was a fan.
I thought she was amazing and.
I wanted to get into the competitionsomeday and I can't remember
everything I wrote in the note andI literally just kind of reached
in and stuck it in her cockpit.
So like three or four weeks later,I got a letter in the mail and was a
(27:25):
signed thing from her saying she gotmy letter and definitely check out
the IAC and go for competition and gofor air shows and, you know, just kind
of patted me in the back through aletter, so to speak, and said Go for it.
How, uh, how early wasthat in your career?
Um, I was in college, so I don'tknow, it might've been like
(27:48):
my sophomore or junior year.
Okay.
So you, I mean, you knew that thatwas your goal for sure, and that
was before you had gotten that bigfat zero on your first competition.
Right?
Yeah, again, I think I talked to her moreabout um, airshow flying in competition.
'cause I really didn't knowa lot about competition yet.
Um, but airshows, since I wasa kid, was always the goal.
(28:12):
You know, there's never been a plan Bbecause if you have a Plan B, you kind
of fall back on it 'cause it's easier.
So I figured if I didn't havea plan B, I'd have no choice
but to somehow appeal plan A.
I like it.
Words of wisdom.
So speaking about how you kind of, um, atleast modeled, um, the amount of action
(28:35):
within your show after, after Leo'sshows, how would you say your style and
your approach to aerobatics, whetherit's air shows or competition, differs
from your colleagues or your competitors?
Depending on what we're talking about.
(28:56):
Um, I'm gonna talk very generally when Isay that because there's a lot of really
amazing performers out there, but I seea lot of people that watch other people
and try to copy what other people do.
And I kind of took the approach ofwatching other people, seeing what
they do, and then trying not to doany of that because who wants to watch
(29:17):
the same thing over and over again?
Um, I've always wantedto be different, unique.
I've wanted to try to make my own style.
I mean, I'm obviouslyinfluenced by people.
I'm influenced by like precisionto my Goan and the crate, uh, the
perceived craziness of Sean Tuckerand, um, a nonstop action of, of Leo.
But I, I want him to be.
(29:38):
Me, I didn't wanna be a copy of them.
Um, and I always ask a lot of questions.
Uh, I've just always been curiousabout aerobatics and why certain
things go a certain way andwhy certain things aren't done.
Um, and I would always get theanswer, well, just, you know,
the airplane can't do that.
I'd be like, well, why not?
(29:59):
I'd always like study it and thinkabout it and think about the physics
and the aerodynamics, the stereoscopics,and just try to figure new stuff out.
Try to think outside the boxand come up with new, new stuff.
So if you look at aerobatics andthe history of, especially with air
shows, it's like everybody does thesame thing and then someone comes
along and there's this like spike.
(30:20):
And then it plateaus again, and everyonecopies that person for 10, 15 years.
And it's all the samethings and there's a spike.
And when I kind of came into it,there was just this plateau going on.
Everyone was doing the same thing.
So just, you know, because I'm obsessedwith it, I try to think outside
the box and try to do my own thing.
And I just want to evolve the sport.
I wanna try to bring it to the nextlevel, come up with new things,
(30:43):
and then somewhere down the linesomeone can pick up on that and take
it to the next level, even beyond.
But it just, it has togrow and not be stagnant.
Right.
Interesting.
Okay, so it sounds like there's obviously,I mean this, this is pretty obvious.
There's a lot of creativity, um, thatgoes behind this and you get your
inspiration from a lot of other people,but try to take it to the next level.
(31:05):
Um, would you mind, um, goinginto a little bit your process of.
Of, you know, trying tofigure something out.
I mean, to a, a non aerobaticpilot like me, um, that sounds, you
know, a little scary and dangerous.
So how do you, what is your processof creativity as you kind of
try and figure these things out?
(31:26):
Is there a lot of ground time ordo you do it mostly in the air
or is it combination of both?
Uh, it takes a long time.
So, you know, people, includingother erratic pilots, they what
they see as the end result, right?
And they're like, oh, that'sreally cool and crazy, and then
they go out and try to do it.
What they don't see is that, you know,it starts off with like waking up
(31:47):
at two in the morning and going, ohman, I wonder if an airplane can do
what I just dreamt about, you know?
And then it's really just.
I'll think about it for months andmonths and months, and I'll think
about how do I manipulate the controls?
How do I manipulate thegyroscopic of the prop?
What's happening aerodynamically?
What could go wrong?
What could it develop into?
What's the end result ofholding the inputs in that I.
(32:09):
Position for too long, and you justkeep going over in your mind and
trying to think of all the variablesand, and what's actually happening.
And then you, then you try it inthe airplane and if you've thought
of it right, and it's actuallypossible, you kind of know right
away if it's gonna work or not.
And quite frankly, there's a lot oftimes you're like, okay, no, that's,
an airplane is never gonna do that.
(32:29):
But every now and then youfumble up on something where.
There is and there's potential.
Um, I do a thing, I callit the inside tumble.
You know, I saw planes tumblingnegatively for years when the nose goes
down and it tumbles around its access.
Yep.
And I always ask, why don'tthey tumble the other way?
And I got the answer thatthey just won't go that way.
Well, why not?
(32:51):
I mean, the airplane shouldn'tcare which way it's going.
Aerodynamics and gyroscopic.
Aerodynamics and gyroscopic.
Yeah.
And the airplane's notreally flying at that point.
Right.
So.
I, I mean, yeah.
I mean, yeah, it's, it's, it's along physics lesson, but, yeah.
Um, but so I, I thought about it foreverand I tried to figure out, and finally
(33:12):
one day I, I actually got it to work.
I was like, holy cow.
And then I couldn't get it to work againfor like a month, and then slowly I
figured out again and I practiced it.
And so what people don't see is likefrom when I first thought of it,
from when I figured it out to, when Ifinally introduced it to an air show,
it was almost two and a half years.
(33:34):
Wow.
That's people, it's, it's an
amazing maneuver.
I gotta say, I've watched it.
Um, and a lot of the maneuvers thatare kind of unique and different,
just, it's the same process.
It takes a long time Before I putin an air show, a question I get
a lot is, you know, what's thehardest figure you do in an air show?
And honestly, the answer is none of them.
Because if it was hard, I wouldn'tput it in a show because it
(33:55):
should be second nature and easy.
So you know what the, how it's gonna end.
And you know, for safetyreasons, when I first tried to
figure out it was pretty hard.
But by the time you actually put it in anair show, it shouldn't be hard anymore.
Huh.
Oh, that's really
interesting.
You have a quote here.
Uh, it's a disease to me, I'm consumedby the thought of flight on average.
(34:20):
How often, I mean, if this is wakingyou up at night, how often are
you, are you thinking about this?
It seems like you're kind of like amad scientist trying to engineer these
different maneuvers and, and pushingthese boundaries and capabilities.
But if you were to cognizantly,pay attention to how.
Often you're thinking about differentways to, to handle that airplane.
(34:42):
What, what would you sayabout on average a day is.
I mean, I don't know about averageper day, but it, it's all the time.
I mean, I'm, I'm, wait, how often are
you not thinking about
these maneuvers?
Well, there are a couple other thingsI enjoy, but we won't talk about that.
Um,
(35:03):
no, I, I'm.
I'm really thinking about it all the time.
It's just, I'm just consumed with it.
I mean, it's my passion.
I, I'm really lucky thatmy job is my hobby, right?
So I have the luxury ofthinking about it all the time.
I don't have to think about whatdo I have to do in the office
today, or other things like that.
So I can think about it all the time.
Yeah.
(35:23):
And, uh, yeah,
it's just, it is kind of like a
disease.
I'm just kind of obsessed with it.
So do you name any of the, the moves thatyou have for any of your other interests?
I'm just kidding.
Um,
that's,
that's good.
That's the best questionI've heard in a long time.
So, um, I, I do have a questionfor you, um, about that process
(35:47):
that you were talking about.
You're going into detail.
Thank you for that.
It's really interesting, um, when you'rethinking about whether, um, a plane can
do something that you're imagining, I. Doyou ever consult with the guys at, uh, MX
or do you ever talk to, um, aeronauticalengineers that you know, or anything like
that about how you might be able to do it?
Or is it sort of, um, something you,a process you go through on your own
(36:12):
and you kind of do it instinctively?
I, I go through it on my own.
I mean, I'm, I mean, it's the mostrespectful way, but most of those
people are the ones who will tellyou that you, you can't do that.
You can't do it.
Yeah.
So I don't really consult them.
Um, no, I just think about it on my own.
I just kind of obsess on it andbroad diagrams and think about it
(36:32):
and practice it, and yeah, just,it's mostly just me and my mind.
And like I said.
You know, if I come up with 10ideas, two of them might work.
Yeah.
So there's, there's a lot of failure too,and there's a lot of things you figure
out, okay, that's kinda ridiculous.
An airplane can't do that.
Well, maybe your next airplane,can you gonna try 'em all again?
(36:53):
Yeah, maybe.
Maybe.
We'll see.
There's way more stuffto be done out there.
So if I can go with a couple more things.
Huh?
Do you write 'em down?
Okay.
So you can remember what you've beenthinking about and, you know, doing
thought processes in your head about?
No.
(37:14):
Um,
I, I mean, like I said, it'skinda like a disease, so I haven't
really forgotten any of my ideas.
Huh.
And I don't really write 'em down.
You are
a imaginist.
I'm more likely to lose the paper thatI write it down on that I'm, forget it.
So
interesting.
It's like a craftsman of aviation.
(37:35):
Yeah.
You know, talking about writing stuffdown, we can segue into, uh, what you
wrote down on the piece of paper thatyou wanted to be US National Champion.
We, what she talked about is.
Basically that first contest, youknow, it was, it was eye-opening and
I realized that this is another aspectof aerobatics that I really want to do.
And, uh, I just kind of told myself,I said, in 10 years I'm gonna be
(37:58):
the national aerobatic champion.
That's what, that was my goal to work on.
And it was almost 10 years for the monththat I won my first national championship.
And you have continued to win every year.
Thereafter.
Yeah.
So, so I gotta ask you about that goalthat you wrote down for yourself, um,
(38:21):
about being national champion in 10 yearsand then doing it almost to the day.
I mean, it sounds likea movie script, right?
Yeah.
How much pressure were you puttingyourself under that first year you won it?
I mean, was this something that you feltlike it's do or die, this is my 10 years?
Or had you kind of forgot aboutit until after you did it?
No, I have a pretty, I got a uniqueway of approaching competition.
(38:47):
I wish more people would do this'cause they probably fly better.
Um, it competition or bads isnot a defensive sport, right?
There's nothing I can do to manipulatewhat someone else is gonna do
in their cockpit when they fly.
So the only thing I can do is go outthere and fly the best that I can and try
to fly better than I flew yesterday orthe day before that, or day before that.
(39:08):
And that's always been my approach.
So I don't get nervous with the judges.
I don't get nervous with the competition.
'cause I mean, you are kind of competingagainst everybody, but I'm really
just competing against myself, tryingto be the best pilot that I can be.
It's all about self-improvement.
So I didn't really put alot of pressure on myself.
It just, it ended up being 10 yearslater, I was at the nationals.
I was flying unlimited and I won.
(39:32):
Just worked out, huh?
Just like that.
Meanwhile, the rest ofus are like, holy cow.
That's incredible,
huh?
So you're saying that your biggestcompetition is Rob Holland?
I.
Absolutely.
That's some stiffcompetition you got there.
(39:53):
Well, well, I mean, every, everyone'scompetition in is really themselves.
Who else can they compete against?
True.
Right?
It's if, if you beat everybody else,but you flew worse than you did
last time, to me, that's not a win.
Maybe there should besome defensive flying.
How, how cool would itbe for like a, a combat.
(40:13):
Um, you, national championship.
Yeah.
I, I think they do that.
It's called the military.
Oh,
I was gonna
say.
Yeah, right.
Absolutely.
When you said that you, you,there's, it's not a defensive sport.
There's nothing you can do.
I started thinking,wow, what if you could,
(40:33):
yeah.
Well,
nothing you can legitimatelydo not, not being sportsman.
Huh.
So what you're saying then is you'regonna be going for your eighth
national championship this, this fall.
Mm-hmm.
Um, yep.
And you're gonna get in that cockpit,and it's gonna be like any other
(40:56):
competition because you're justgonna try and fly better than you
did the day before in practice.
Yeah.
And that's, it's probably oneof the biggest advantages I have
is that I don't get nervous.
I'm not, you know, desperately watchingthe other guy to see how he does.
'cause it doesn't reallymatter how he does.
I'm, I gotta fly as good as I can.
(41:18):
I'll watch him for cues and, youknow, see what the wind's doing and
whether they're getting blown andhow I'm gonna adjust my sequence.
But it's.
It's really, it's really acompetition against myself.
I mean, my goal all along has been tobe the best atic pilot that I can be,
and I don't feel like I'm there yet.
I feel like I still have quitea ways to go to be the best
(41:39):
atic pilot that I can be.
So that's one of thereasons for competition.
It makes you push yourself, it makes you.
It puts you in front of the judgesso you can actually measure where
you are and how you're doing.
Hmm.
So all the airshows that you'regonna do over the summer, which
is airshow season of course.
Um, mm-hmm.
The conventional wisdom, likeyou said, uh, at the top of the
(42:00):
interview, um, is that it's gonnamake your flying less precise.
When do you cut that off and startpreparing for the, the competition?
It is, it's tough.
I mean, competition, I'm sorry.
Air shows do help competition asmall way, basically for positioning
(42:20):
and being able to put figuresexactly where you want to put 'em.
Because flying in an air show, it's ifyou're doing it right, it's about that.
It's putting stuff where youwant 'em to be most entertaining.
So that side of it kind of helps.
And I try to take a consciouseffort to make everything in my
air show as precise as I can to tryto keep the competition skills up.
But I'll take a few weeks duringthe season and say, okay, this week
(42:43):
I'm gonna do a camp with some peopleand I'm gonna practice competition.
I'm gonna brain dump air shows for thisweek, practice competition stuff, and
then I'll just turn back on air show stuffnext week when I start doing that again.
And then I'll also take a week anda half to two weeks right before the
nationals and dedicate that time tojust practicing competition stuff,
trying to turn off air show mode andget back into the competition mode.
(43:07):
It's tough.
It's not a, not a very easy balancing act.
It's, it's
pretty
kind of
a state of mind, butthat's, that's how I do it.
Do you, do you set the airplane upany differently for competition?
No.
Um,
I used to, and then I realizedby doing that I was kind of
(43:29):
flying two different airplanes.
Mm-hmm.
And, you know, I was set up in certain,I won't get into all the details, but
certain ways it made, like some of theair shows stuff a little bit easier.
But it made some of the competition stuffa little bit harder and I, I just stopped.
I figured, you know what, why don'tI just get better at the air show
stuff so I don't have to make iteasier myself, you know, become,
(43:51):
I think that's the better option.
And then I'm flying the same airplaneall the time and you know, in the long
run, it just makes everything easier.
All right.
So I know that you are.
Pretty big on Instagram and yoursocial media, Facebook especially,
but I always see you hashtagging fly.
(44:14):
Good.
Don't suck.
Is that original to Rob Holland or what'sthe, what's the history behind that?
Uh, 2011 at the World Airat Championships in Italy.
Um, one of my teammates there,Tim Justs, was getting ready to
go and he was kind of nervous.
(44:34):
You know, he is at his firstworld championship in front
of international judges and.
A lot of pressure.
And, uh, Jesse was closing the canopy.
I, I kind of don't knowwhere it came from.
I just tried to be funny andcheer him up a little bit.
I kind of stuck my head and was like,Hey, man, fly good and don't suck.
And he kind of chuckled andI was like, you know, that
actually kind of makes sense.
And it kind of sums everything up.
So when everyone would go fly, I'd justtell him to fly good and don't suck.
(44:58):
And it just kind of,it just kind of stuck.
It just kind of ran, ran from there.
Became your tagline almost Huh?
The aerobatic version of Break a Leg.
Kinda, yeah.
Yeah.
That's pretty good.
I saw you opened up astore on your website too.
Looks like you guys have those, uh,shirts available and all kinds of swag.
(45:21):
Yeah.
Lot good.
Don't suck shirts.
Yep.
Simplest thing.
Well, now I want one.
I know.
Me too.
Ww.
Always, always time to plug your website.
(45:42):
Exactly.
That's pretty good.
So Rob, where else can people findyou on Twitter and Facebook and
Instagram and all those places?
Uh, Facebook.
It's facebook.com/ultimateAirshows, Instagram and Twitter.
It's uh, Rob Holland, 5 1 5 0.
(46:03):
What is 5 1 5 0.
Well, I'm a big Van Halen fan.
They had an album 51 50, but what51 50 is, is a, uh, California
Police Code for Crazy and Insane.
Yeah,
I was wondering.
All right.
Yeah, that's pretty good.
(46:26):
Well, Rob, we thank you so much for comingand talking to us a little bit tonight.
And we appreciate the insights intoyour process and, and best of luck to
you going forward in your air showsthis summer, but also in the, what
I think is a very important nationalchampionship coming up in the fall.
Yep.
It's, uh, it's, it's a big one.
(46:47):
I will, uh, do what I alwaysdo is show up and do my best.
You'll fly good and not suck.
I'll fly Good and not suck.
Well, cool.
We'll be paying attention anddefinitely rooting you on.
Where, where's, appreciate that.
Oh, I was gonna askwhere's the competition?
But are you even allowed to say,
is that the Nationals promoting?
(47:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's gotta be an it's, it'sactually at Oshkosh this year.
Hmm.
Like.
Yep.
And is it usually after Osh the
place, not Oshkosh, the event.
Oh, got it.
Osh got it.
Oshkosh, believe it or not,does actually exist the other
51 weeks a year I've been there.
(47:29):
It, it's at Whitman Field and Oshkosh.
It is not an air venture.
Oh, darn.
Very precise language there.
Yep.
Yeah.
Excellent.
Well, thanks again, Rob.
My pleasure.
Thank you guys.
Thanks for joining us for anotherepisode of the Pilot Cast.
If you wanna learn more about us, goahead and check us out on Facebook,
(47:50):
the Pilot cast, and our Instagram page.
We'll see you next time.
Pilot Cast is edited by Bill Williams andSteve Tupper is in charge of the music.
The Air crew is made up of TiffanyWolf, Kent Shook, and Bill Williams.
(48:10):
You can find contact information forthe entire pilot, cast, crew, and
detail from each episode@pilotcast.com.
We want to hear from you, soplease contact us with ideas,
feedback, and suggestions atpilots@pilotcast.com or reach out to
us on Instagram, Facebook, or Twitter.
All under the moniker Pilot Cast.
(48:31):
We really appreciate you listening.
Find this and other great showsat the Aviation Media Network,
the voices in your head.
(49:01):
I am at a gas station.
Works for me.
Do you ever get dizzy?
Are you scared?
Do you throw up?
Are you crazy?
Really?
We didn't want the margarita machine toturn off and Patty Wagstaff was behind it
serving, so I just don't have good wifiat my house, so I have to come up here.
(49:26):
Whoa, coyote.
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