June 30, 2025 • 44 mins
In Episode 85, we join Bill and Kent as they talk about how to expand the envelope of your flying. In other words, how to fly good and not suck...or at least get better and reduce your personal minimums.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Hi, welcome back to another studentpilot cast, and specifically a
beyond the check ride segment.
So, as usual, I'm here with Kent.
How you doing, Kent?
Excellent.
How are you doing?
I'm doing great.
Aren't you gonna say somethingabout being able to talk about
flying or something like that?
Oh, I can't even rememberwhat the line was.
(00:25):
It's been so long since we recorded.
So, excellent.
Glad to have you with us, and sowe're gonna be talking today about.
What we do beyond our check ride tocontinue to expand our capabilities or
expand our personal personal minimums.
So a pretty good topic.
(00:46):
We can go a lot of places with it.
How do you wanna start the discussion?
Well, I think a lot of people, Youknow, they've just gone through
all their private pilot training.
they've had all kinds of documentationthat tells them exactly what they need to
do in that airplane to reach their goal.
and sadly, when I, before I was even apilot, I was a lineman and I would see all
(01:10):
these people come and they would train,train, train, train, train and get their
private and you would never see 'em again.
and that's kind of sad 'cause.
I know that for both of us, aviation hasdone wonderful things in our lives and
so it's something that you definitelyshould try to continue with if you can.
there are so many opportunitiesin aviation to do more things.
(01:35):
you know, there's really nobody thathas done everything and so, I think.
Maybe the first step should be to getout there and find out what to do next.
find out what your nichein aviation is gonna be.
I think a lot of people thinkabout becoming an airline pilot
because that's what aviationis to an awful lot of people.
(01:57):
They just simply don't know, thebreadth of opportunities that there
are in aviation for both fun and work.
So there, there are a ton of, ofother opportunities out there.
And so, the next thing after yourprivate is just kind of figuring
out where you're gonna go next.
(02:17):
The other thing about that is whensomeone's getting their private
certificate, for example, all the timeabout aeronautical decision making, and
part of ADM is defining writing down andknowing what your personal minimums are.
That is something that is meant to beexpanded as you gain more experience,
(02:44):
do more things, get better at someof the skills that have to do with
flying the airplane, things like that.
And a lot of times what wedon't talk about is how do we
expand those personal minimums?
How do we go beyond the checkride and start to do that?
And so I think it'd be great ifwe covered that today as well.
(03:07):
Excellent.
yeah, it's all about expandingyour flying skills safely.
Yes.
I.
it safely.
So
yeah, you're right.
When, when you, uh, like the daybefore your check ride, you have those
personal minimums are kind of writtenout for you by your flight instructor
(03:28):
as your solo minimums, and you'reallowed to Do, you know, what, what
solo minimums do you give people?
generally some of the basic ones wouldbe never flying in more than, you know,
15 knots of wind and never flying in morethan, say, an eight knot cross wind until
(03:48):
you get better and better at it As far
Yeah.
goes, of course thenthere's minimums around.
This is actually afunny one to talk about.
there's minimums around visibility andthings like that too because as we know
in most of the air spaces we fly in,three miles of visibility is pretty
much legal, with a few exceptions andthree miles of visibility for somebody
(04:15):
who's learned to fly in Arizona.
might as well be hard IMCbecause we generally out here
have unlimited visibility, 80, ahundred miles, even in the summer.
the only times it gets a little bitlower is from smog or maybe dust blowing
(04:35):
around in the, in the atmosphere.
But it's amazing whenit does get lower here.
gets down to 10, or heaven forbid, youknow, seven, six miles of visibility.
You notice it, right?
And so I wouldn't, uh, ever want one of mystudents to fly in anything less than, say
(04:55):
six or seven miles of visibility becausethey've really had no experience doing it.
And finding an airport and ofunderstanding where you're at when you
can only see straight down, at leastcompared to the way we normally can
see out here, with all of the terrainwe have around us and all of those
sorts of things it can be a big deal.
(05:15):
Now you talk to somebody who flies in theMidwest like you do a lot, Kent, seven,
eight miles of visibility in the summer.
That's just, you know,a Tuesday, know, so,
um,
It's usually 10, but it's usuallynot that much more, you know, the,
right,
automated weather observingsystems and the ATIS are never
going to tell you more than 10.
(05:37):
I, I guess I shouldn't say never.
I have heard, of higher numbersthan that, but that's pretty rare.
point
and you know, I, I rememberthat first flight where it
was only four or five miles ofvisibility after I got my private.
and these days, like if itwas four miles visibility, I'm
going, IFR, you know, there's,
(05:58):
yeah.
Yeah, yeah,
it's really not very much.
yeah.
Yeah,
Yeah.
I.
that distance, especially, ifyou're talking about traffic
opposite direction, that closingdistance is gonna happen real fast.
So,
Yeah.
that, type of thing.
It's kind of funny because of wherewe fly, is a little bit different.
Of course, you've flown in all sortsof places all over the US but but
(06:21):
where we live is sort of different.
And so those, those are going to affectyour personal minimums, of course.
Absolutely.
And you know, here in Wisconsin it isdifferent depending on the time of year.
in the summer when it's really humid,you're not gonna get a whole lot
more than 10 miles, in the winter.
I can take off and seea hundred, 150 miles,
(06:43):
Exactly.
right?
Right.
It gets really dry in the winterand so that that dry air gives
you really good visibility.
Yeah.
speaking of which, I was on a, um,tell, I'm going on a story tangent.
I was on a training flight with oneof my students a couple of months ago.
And, speaking of increasing your personalmini minimums or expanding that envelope.
(07:07):
went out specifically because itwas a very windy day and, um, we
were gonna work on, her groundreference maneuvers because, it
was gonna be pretty challenging.
And so we both thought, Hey,this is a good opportunity.
To do something that's gonna be verychallenging so that when you do it
on your check ride or you know, um,in, in less undesirable conditions,
(07:29):
it's gonna feel real easy, you know?
so we went out and did that, turnedaround to head back towards the airport,
and we realized that the whole eastpart of the valley had been kind of
engulfed in dust because of all the.
'cause of all the wind.
And so again, our visibility probably,you know, it wasn't even close to
(07:49):
marginal VFR, it was probably aboutsix, eight miles, something like that.
But for us, you know, out here,and for this private student who
had never flown in conditions likethat, she just immediately went.
I have no idea where the airport is.
You know,
Yeah.
that I normally use, I can't see.
(08:11):
And uh, so we kinda came back and, askedfor a low approach so that we could
get our bearings, because that's how.
That's how different it is whenyou can normally see 80 miles or
basically un unlimited now allof a sudden you can't see much.
So we came in, did a low approach.
Of course, nobody was flying anymore,so there wasn't a lot of traffic.
(08:34):
And they were like, sure, go ahead.
No problem.
Whatever you need.
So we did a low approach, stayed in thepattern, and then came back down to land.
And that was a great experience for her.
not only for the ground reference,but to get, to see in a safe way, you
know, with an instructor on board,what it's like when your visibility
starts to go to crap, you know?
(08:54):
so that's kind of whatwe're talking about, right?
Yeah.
so, so it's really about, youknow, pushing that envelope,
but doing it in a safe way.
So I know with all your experience,Kent, what does it mean to be able to
push the envelope but do it safely?
Well, the way I always like to say it is.
(09:16):
To become a better pilot, youhave to push your envelope and you
have to expand your envelope, butonly do it one corner at a time.
so something like you aredoing with your student there.
You know, being in the local area andworking with the same controllers you've
got normally and flying the same airplane,you know, you still had a situation
(09:39):
that if she hadn't been with you couldhave been potentially dangerous for her.
Um, I. Now imagine if she had alreadyhad her private, was not up with an
instructor, was maybe, you know, maybehad traveled somewhere and was flying
an unfamiliar airplane and talking withdifferent controllers and all of those
things kind of contribute to, potentiallyoverwhelming the pilot and, and getting
(10:05):
'em into an even more unsafe situation.
one example, uh, that I thought ofis, you know, I went out to the west
coast, this quite a while ago, but, Ijust had a situation where I had the
luxury of both time and money at thesame time, which is incredibly rare.
(10:27):
And, uh, there was a family reunionhappening out in Oregon and I had
decided I was going to fly out to it.
and it was just kind ofa, an epic adventure.
but I did it in an airplanethat I. It was one of those few
airplanes that I don't fly, I wear,
(10:49):
Yeah.
you know, an airplane thatfeels so natural to me that
it's like it's part of my body.
and I think really, I've onlyhad two airplanes that I've
gotten to that point with.
I did take a mountain flying course onthe way out there as well, so, uh, we'll
definitely talk about that a little bit.
but, you know, to, some extent I wastrying to minimize those variables.
(11:13):
Uh, it was also, I took thetrip in a 182 and I was solo.
So even though it was.
Late summer and hot, you know, highdensity altitude in some places.
I had performance to spare because I wasstill several hundred pounds under gross.
I not long after that, somebody I knowwas going to take a similar trip from the
(11:38):
Midwest to the West coast in a light sportaircraft they had never flown before.
Uh, you know, one that allowed themenough useful load to maybe pack
a toothbrush to take with them.
You know, something that.
Didn't carry a wholeheck of a lot of fuel.
You know, there's, there's alot of, uh, lot of space between
(12:00):
all the airports out there.
And, I was just thinking,man, that's, that's too much.
and I also thought that theymight have been somewhat inspired
by the trip I took and I calledup and said, dude, don't do it.
Um.
I feel like you're, you're biting off toomany new things at once, being in a new
(12:23):
airplane with limited performance in a newenvironment, going through the mountains,
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
and luckily he said, yeah, I kindof figured that out myself already.
So I've, I've already madethe decision not to do it.
kinda what you
now.
pushing one corner of theenvelope at a time, right?
Right,
off
right.
(12:43):
that are gonna be different, orpushing your personal minimums rather
than doing a whole bunch at once.
Right.
Okay.
and you know, you can, uh, ifyou're bored with flying right now,
pick something to get better at.
sometimes we don't think of justgoing out and practicing something.
(13:05):
I know a guy though that kind ofkicked me in the butt a little bit.
I was in the pattern at an airportwhere he was based and just kind
of trying out a new airplane.
And there he is on the CrosswindRunway in his Cessna 140.
You know, doing, uh, doing crosswindspractice just to get better at
(13:25):
it and to keep his skills up.
I went, huh, I shouldprobably do that more often.
Yeah.
but, you know, same sort of thing
A lot of times we kind of stop trainingwhen we get our certificate and start
going is, you know what we talkedabout in one of our previous episodes.
wants to go somewhere and that'sawesome and you learn a ton when you
(13:47):
do that, but sometimes should just goup and practice some things, right,
like you did when you were a student.
Absolutely.
you know, I'm the kind of person who,when it snows here, I go out for a drive.
so I'm, I'm a little bit.
Mixed up in the head already,I suppose, but, if there's good
(14:08):
flyable IMC, I'm gonna go fly.
Um, you know, there's no substitutefor actual, in fact, when you were
talking about Arizona flight conditions,there's an awful lot of people up in
this part of the world who think it isabsolutely crazy that it's possible to
get an instrument rating without everhaving seen the inside of a cloud.
(14:30):
yes,
Um, but you guys don't see cloudsat all very much down there, so,
Well, well, and when we do it's, youknow, towering Cumulonimbus and you
don't want to be anywhere near it anyway.
but every once in awhile we do get layers.
A lot of times it is cumulus ofsome sort, but we, you know, it's
(14:53):
mild enough that we can get it.
And so, yes.
We do the same thing be especiallybecause it's so difficult to find
flyable IMC, that when it happens, yousee a lot of people heading up into it.
So that's a good thing.
That's a good thing.
Absolutely.
so when you see conditions that are closerto the edges of your envelope, that's
(15:16):
the time to go fly and to go practice.
And, you know, let's say you havedecided that your personal minimum
for crosswinds is, you know, nomore than 10 knots across wind.
And maybe there's 12 today.
Well, when's the last time you flew in 10.
was it last week, last month,or was it two years ago?
(15:38):
And so that should tell youwhether that's okay to, to push
that corner of your envelope.
you know, I think I'm to the pointwhere, I've had a crosswind, direct
crosswind gusting to 35 knots.
Um.
Would I go out and do that today?
Yeah, maybe not because, you know,I'm, it's, it's been a little while
(15:58):
since I got a really good crosswind.
I know I've done it in the past,but I haven't done it recently.
So,
Right.
Right.
I. You definitely want to at leastthink about that, you know, you
don't necessarily have to have doneit last week, but be proficient,
in something before you push it.
So pushing just a little bit,especially when you're by yourself.
(16:21):
But if you feel like it's, you know,maybe your proficiency isn't where it
needs to be to expand your envelopeto 12 or 15 knots of crosswind.
Or maybe there's too many things going.
Maybe the visibility is a littlelow and the crosswind, that's when
you, you know, text your instructor.
And say, Hey, you got some time to go up.
This looks like pretty goodpractice conditions, and if the
(16:43):
instructor's available, they'regonna want to go do it too.
Absolutely.
yeah, get somebody
I am reminded of a time that therewere some really horrendous winds and
somebody had a lesson scheduled and theywere sure they could handle it, and,
uh, it's a good thing they were withtheir instructor because, yeah, it was,
it was far enough beyond what they wereactually proficient at that the instructor
(17:06):
had to get 'em back on the ground.
But, you know, those are aregreat opportunities as well.
I.
even with private students who aren'tbeyond the check ride yet, those
types of opportunities are pure gold.
And I just had this experience lastweek with a post solo, uh, student
of mine we were going up to help herget familiar with the practice area.
(17:31):
'cause next he's gonna be soloing tothe practice area we had a dual lesson
planned and it got really windy.
It was, you know, direct crosswind,gusting about 20 But we weren't really
spending a ton of time in the pattern.
we were going to the practicearea, and so it was fine.
She did great.
but when we were coming backin, she had never, she had never
(17:53):
landed in conditions like that.
And I told her, Hey, thisis gonna be challenging.
I'm gonna be on the controls with you.
I, and I'm going to,you know, show you how.
Easy.
This is to put the thing on the thingif you know how to control the airplane,
if you've got experience doing it.
And, her response afterwe touched down was, wow.
(18:14):
I had no, I idea that it would belike being kind of in a side slip.
So, down one wheel way before the other,then the, the other wheel and then the
nose wheel, and lots of cross control and.
she was doing great on her landingswhen there's minimal wind, it was a
(18:35):
testament to me that, I mean, these, theseopportunities to expand your experience
with somebody more experienced on boardto help make it safe, man, that is just
absolute learning gold right there.
Definitely.
and I've heard of, I've heard of peoplesaying things like, oh, I couldn't land in
(18:56):
a 15 knot cross 'cause I ran outta rudder.
Uh, I call bs.
Um, I didn't run outta rudder with a35 knot crosswinds, so obviously some
aircraft types are better than others,but, especially Cessna, you know, they,
they build airplanes that you can, I.
Beat the living hell out of.
Yeah.
(19:17):
so I, I would guess that I couldprobably, you know, if, if I had the
proficiency that if I was landing a182 and a 45 not cross wind, I might
start to hit the stops on the rudder.
But, you know, the planes, theplanes generally going to be
better than you are as a pilot.
Yep.
It mostly comes down toyour proficiency for sure.
(19:39):
yeah.
So I alluded to it a little bit ago,but there are also times where you don't
want to call your own flight instructor.
You want to go and get somebodywho's a specialist in something.
and
totally agree.
that I mentioned was a mountain flyingcourse that honestly, to this day.
(20:04):
That was some of the best learningflying and some of the most
fun I've had in an airplane.
I, uh, I do have to give props here.
It was, uh, Lori McCall's team up atMountain Canyon flying in McCall, Idaho.
a lot of people are aware of the,uh, Colorado Pilots Association
(20:24):
courses as well, which, um, I thinkthose happen like three times a year.
and it's a, it's a big deal.
They have a whole lot of instructors and awhole lot of people learning, uh, whereas.
Mountain Canyon flying is onethat, you know, it's a, a company
that does it all the time.
but one of the things that I reallyappreciated about that course up
in McCall is they have a, an areaup there called the Frank Church
(20:50):
River of No Return Wilderness Area.
And there are a ton of thesecool little Forest Service strips
around there that are just.
Really, really cool.
check out Johnson Creekif you get a chance.
I think it's 3U2, really great littleplace where you can camp and, the
(21:11):
mountains around there are justbeautiful and you really do have to
fly right around them to get in there.
but there's some really, really neatstuff that you can get to in the back
country and, uh, so that that courseup there, being able to actually fly
into the mountains as well as justaround them was just super cool.
Um.
(21:31):
So that's one example ofgetting specialist instruction.
definitely.
specialty instruction right there.
You want somebody who's,really adept at teaching that.
Absolutely.
aerobatics, of course, is another one,
Mm-hmm.
where these are things that are maybemore obvious than some others, but
(21:54):
going and getting some specialty flightinstruction, is just a, a great way to
have some fun and to learn a whole lotabout flying in a short period of time.
and doing these thingsmakes you a better pilot.
Overall as well.
you know, with a mountain flying course,you learn a lot about not only density
altitude, but just how air currents flyaround objects and that sort of thing.
(22:17):
you know, I can probably better predictnow when it's gonna be turbulent near
downtown Chicago because I learnedabout what causes turbulence in the
mountains, mountain skyscrapers, whatever.
The air doesn't know the difference, so.
Yeah.
Kent, I don't even think I've had achance to tell you this, but at the
beginning of this year, I actually tookan aerobatics, lesson, which was pretty
(22:42):
cool.
extra, extra 300.
Yeah.
Nice.
yes, I have a friend who had an extra300, and that's what I, that's what I
did as well as I went up with, with him.
And, uh, I mean, boy, I wishextras weren't so expensive, but
they are awfully fun airplanes.
you know, we started with spins and hedemonstrated the first spin and I was
(23:06):
like, oh my gosh, that was really scary.
Let's do it again.
Yeah.
And yeah, I learned how to do loopsand rolls and hammerheads and and
you know, you can watch an awfullot of air shows, but the first
time you try and do it for yourself,it's like, oh, that isn't at all.
(23:26):
Like, it looks like,
Yeah.
you know, something like ahammer head or a tail slide looks
really simple, but you know.
Airplanes have three axes andthey all affect each other.
Um, and so you learn somethings that are, that are really
interesting, by doing that.
(23:48):
So what did you learn in the aerobaticscourse that helps your everyday flying?
I.
Well, for one, so the airplanes I fly ona day-to-day basis are so much more stable
than an extra 300 by design, that youwould think there wouldn't be a lot of.
(24:10):
transfer.
And in some ways, you know, there aren't,but what you get is this ability to
experience a truly maneuverable airplaneand to see what, to see what's capable
with the three primary flight controls.
being able to, Manipulate an airplanearound those axes in a way that,
(24:32):
and, and at a speed that you'vejust never experienced before.
And what it does is it, what itdid for me is it sort of sped
up my flying clock a little bit.
And so just that little bit of experience,and it would happen even more and
more if I did it more and more if itwasn't so dang expensive like you said.
(24:55):
It sort of speeds up your clock alittle bit so that when you start to
see things get outta whack in a morestable training airplane, you, you
recognize it earlier you're able tocorrect it earlier in a smoother manner.
I'm telling my students this all the time,like I. Catching something early is key
because then the correction doesn't evenfeel like a correction to your passenger.
(25:18):
You know, it's, it's just a slight change,and I think that's one of the things that
the aerobatic training did for me, alongwith it just being an absolute blast.
I. Of
being able to tumble around in anairplane, but, um, being in a high
performance airplane, that's just faster.
I think that is part of expanding yourenvelope a little bit and, seeing that
(25:41):
if things are gonna happen that fast,I'm gonna speed up my clock a little
bit so that I can catch things earlier.
So that's one of the things I noticed.
Yeah, that's a great point.
And you don't need anaerobatics course to do that.
You know, go get yourselfa high performance checkout
or complex or something.
Just get into a faster airplane, and
That's right.
I. I mean, honestly, what made the Mooneya relatively easy transition for me was
(26:05):
that I wasn't flying trainers before that.
I was flying stuff likethe 182 and the DA 40.
So I was used to the a hundredand thirty five, a hundred forty
knot speed range by that point.
and so jumping up to 170 was not thatbig of a deal, whereas if I was coming
from something like a 1 72, eh, itmight have been more of a big deal.
(26:28):
So, yeah, that, that definitely helps.
and honestly, I think there's, youget to a point where, you know, I
didn't necessarily feel like theTBM was even that much faster.
Hmm.
You know, if you think about it interms of percentages, yeah, it's faster
at cruise, but once you get down intothe approach regime, it's not that
(26:52):
much faster than the Mooney even.
And so I feel like once you, once youspeed that clock up, even in something
that's 170 knots, well that gets youused to thinking in the right way.
That when you jump into somethingthat's 300 knots, it's not as big
of a deal as it otherwise would be.
(27:12):
Yeah.
You know, if you can, if you can staywell ahead of 170 knot airplane, you can
probably stay with a 300 knot airplane.
and then work your way up from there.
Um,
when you figure out descent calculations.
That's the important one on those things.
right.
That's the big thing.
And you know, when you're flying a fastairplane in the flight levels, well,
(27:36):
you just have to plan your descent.
you know.
You're the number of miles outyou are when you start your
descent is gonna be a lot higher,
Sometimes
the descent lasts a lot longer.
Right, right.
Absolutely.
you know, coming back into Milwaukeehere, you know, you always cross a fix
southwest of Chicago at 24,000 feet.
(27:58):
So if you start at 31, you knowyou're somewhere down in central
Illinois when you start your descent.
And honestly, I started figuring out howto plan descents when I was flying the 182
Oh
know, it's not quite like a 1 72where it's like, oh, there's the
airport, let me pull the throttle andit'll just go right down, you know?
(28:20):
Yep.
so yeah, there's, there's so manydifferent opportunities to, to expand
your envelope in, in many differentways and, and they're all fun.
of those, yeah, they're all fun.
It's all flying, right?
It's all great experience.
And one of the things we talk about allthe time in flying, risk management,
right, is having an out, you have to beable to anticipate what are the risks and
(28:44):
what are the ways that I'm going to eitheravoid those risks or mitigate them or.
Handle them if they turninto an issue, right?
So, um, one of those ways we've talkedabout, well several of them we've
talked about like taking a specialtyinstructor, doing a course, um, taking
your instructor with you when you'reslightly expanding those envelopes.
(29:06):
But, you know, we can do thesethings ourselves as solo.
when we're on cross countries,we're gonna be expanding some
of our envelopes because.
like we've talked about before, you,you're gonna run into situations
where you haven't specificallytrained for that situation.
And so you're gonna have to use somejudgment and you're gonna have to handle
(29:29):
the situation as pilot in command.
And in doing so, you've just addedto your quiver, an arrow that.
You know how to handle that in the future,or you might learn from handling it
badly the first time you did it right.
But while we're doing that, alwaystry and have these outs so we
can do that anytime we're flying.
(29:50):
Push the envelope just a little bit,like you said, one corner at a time.
Just make sure you have an out, youknow what the risk is and you know
how you're gonna handle that risk.
Absolutely.
You know, if you're doing crosswindpractice at a single runway airport
and it's at or above your currentpersonal minimums and you're trying
to expand that part of your envelope.
(30:11):
Don't make yourself force it there.
you know,
Mm-hmm.
ready to, you know, land at thatairport across town that has a
runway in a different orientationthat's more into the wind.
and doing stuff like that has made alot easier if you already have a plan
in place for, okay, if I have to dothat, who's gonna give me a ride home?
You know?
(30:32):
Yeah.
So there's, there's a lot of,uh, pre-planning that you can
do that makes tougher decisionseasier once you're in the air.
in fact, when I know that I'mgoing to get into a tough situation
in the air, I try and make allthe decisions well beforehand.
So being able to make some of thetougher decisions beforehand, and.
(30:56):
Putting hard limits on them that youforce yourself to stick to, uh, is
important and it helps you to make abetter decision, once you're in the air.
so don't let yourself fall into that.
Get-There-Itis trap of, well,it's only two knots more
than I said it was gonna be.
it's only this, it's only that.
(31:17):
You know, we talked about that alittle bit in the last episode, and
in fact, now I'm thinking of anotherinstance and it's back to fuel again.
where I had flown down for a pumpkinbombing session with a couple of friends
and we were flying back late at night.
And, you know, luckily we wereflying in an airplane that told
(31:39):
us what our reserve would be.
and I pretty much never gowith less than an hour reserve.
and I basically said on the wayback, okay, well we're, we're kind
of getting to where we might onlyland with an hour reserve, so.
You know, if that number theregoes below 10 gallons, we're
just gonna stop for fuel.
Even though we would be fine, eventhough we would have 59 minutes
(32:02):
reserve when we get there, youknow, if that number goes below 10
gallons, we're gonna stop for fuel.
Um,
Requirement.
right.
there are so many people who have runout of fuel because of that last minute.
Yep.
So that's one of those thingswhere it's, it's real easy to
make the decision beforehand.
(32:24):
It's not so easy to makethe decision in the moment.
it's real easy to talk yourselfinto, well, I'm tired and
I want to get home quicker.
And, you know, I don't reallyneed the full hour reserve.
You know, 45 minutes is okay accordingto the FAA, and so I'm not gonna, I'm not
gonna bother landing for fuel now, but.
(32:45):
Then who knows what's gonna happen.
You know, reserves are there for a reason.
And, uh, the margins that webuild in for safety, fuel,
and otherwise in our personalminimums, those are all important.
Yeah,
those decisions made in advance asfar easier to deal with in the moment.
Right, which is the, the beautyof personal minimums anyway,
(33:07):
as long as you stick to them.
so it may seem like we'recontradicting ourselves a little bit.
So we're gonna dive into this,these personal minimums that we.
That we all try and have super importantand sticking to them is super important.
Of course, today's topic isabout expanding those, and I
just wanna make a distinction.
Some of our personal minimums have todo with safety margins and some of our
(33:29):
personal minimums have to do with ourskills, our proficiency as a pilot.
it's the, the proficiency or skills asa pilot that we're wanting to expand.
We want to expand our flying abilities,which will expand our safety margins,
which will allow us to make flightsand do flights that are really fun.
(33:51):
And sometimes we could make a landingbecause we've expanded our skills that
we wouldn't have been able to beforewe expanded our personal minimums.
So all of these things are good,we're talking about safety margins,
like for instance, fuel and thingslike that, we wanna make sure we're
sticking to these personal minimums,because that's what they're there for.
(34:12):
They're there to help us not makea bad decision in the moment.
when, when we talk about.
you know, expanding the envelope.
That's not where, whatwe're really talking about.
We're talking about expanding yourcapabilities as a pilot and your
proficiency and things like that.
So I just wanted to make that distinction'cause it almost sounds like we're
(34:33):
contradicting ourselves a little bit.
Do you have any comments on that, Kent?
Yeah, I mean, I think, To someextent, you know, to, to expand your
personal minimums, you're going tohave to get into a situation where.
You are going beyond what they used to be.
Yep.
like we said before, one thing ata time, you know, if I am expanding
(34:55):
my personal minimums for crosswinds,I'm going to go do that on a day
where I can just go do it by myself.
I'm not necessarily gonna do it whenI'm, you know, a thousand miles away from
home with my family on board, you know?
Right, right.
all of these things, uh, and.
You know, let's talk a little bit moreabout personal minimums, because I think
(35:16):
a lot of people, you know, a lot of theType A personalities that we sometimes
get in aviation are averse to havingsuch things because it seems like it's
a weakness or something like that.
and it's also really easy to say,well, it's not that far beyond
my personal minimums, right?
I will say that I think that there isthumb room for, Going beyond, of course,
(35:43):
like we've been talking about in the,quest to make yourself a better pilot.
But again, like we were talkingabout earlier, one thing at a time.
Yep.
so one way that, some air carriersand the civil air patrol and
some private pilots will do this.
is they'll use what's called aflight risk assessment tool, and
(36:05):
that assigns a certain number ofpoints to each little thing that
might cause a little bit of risk.
And so there may be things that arewithin all of your personal minimums,
but they're within all of your personalminimums at once, if you know what I mean.
you know, you might have a flight that's,well, it's six miles of visibility.
(36:29):
That's okay.
And I'm gonna have a crosswindthat's right up against my limits.
Oh.
And there's gonna be a ceilingthat's only 500 feet above my
cruising altitude and this and that.
Even if it checks all the boxesfor your personal minimums,
that's not a good flight to take.
so if you want to get into a formalflight risk assessment tool, I think
(36:53):
the, the Civil Air Patrol one mightbe available publicly on the web.
I'm not sure about that.
There's a
don't know if you're awareof any that are out there.
Yeah, there's, there'sa few of them out there.
You can look them up.
Um, some of them are apps on yourphone, some of them are spreadsheets,
some of them are websites.
(37:13):
So, yeah, there, there's differentways to do that, but however you do it.
you're talking about is risk assessment,which is what we have been entrusted to
do as pilots in command of an aircraftfiguring out there's, there's too
many risks to mitigate all at once.
And that's a no-go decision, right?
(37:34):
And we have to be willing to
Right.
about that at length in our last episodeabout probably the biggest safety tool
we have for CrossCountry airplanes.
CrossCountry flying, Ishould say, is, flexibility.
in our schedule, flexibility,being willing to divert, being
willing to, call a no go.
so, that's the same thing when, when we'reassessing any flight is, you know, if
(37:59):
there's too many things that are close tothe edge of the envelope, really have to
assess, can I mitigate all of this risk?
All at once.
And that's, that's one of theresponsibilities that we have as pilots
in command that we should never forget.
That's a big, big responsibility.
Absolutely.
And you know, several minutes ago,bill stopped me because I started
(38:22):
to tell a story that I had told on adifferent episode and forgotten about.
and I was just thinking, if weever get repetitive on the show
here, there's a reason for that.
Those are the lessons that we havelearned that have really stuck.
true.
you know, and so those arethe, the most important things.
(38:42):
To listen to are those things that keepcoming up again and again when we're
talking about safety is, you know, theycome up many times for many reasons.
and those are the thingsthat are really important.
That's
and you know what?
If you hear Bill say somethingand then I say it, and then some
(39:03):
flight instructor at your airportsays it, there's a reason for that.
so
is true.
I.
of the bottom line here, is we,we need to find safe ways to
expose ourselves situations thatare beyond our comfort level or
beyond our, our, current minimums.
(39:25):
as we get exposed to those situationsin a safe manner where we have our outs.
we have our risk mitigation in place, thenthey're gonna become less risky for us.
They're gonna become lessdangerous and and less scary.
And that's what we want to doas we expand our envelope, as
we expand our capabilities andbecome more and more proficient.
(39:48):
And so what we've talkedabout today is, is.
Just a few ways that you can do that,and I'm sure you can think of dozens of
other ways that you can do that as well.
It, it's funny, I've had a couple ofstudents who started flight training
and, and realized that they werereally susceptible air sickness.
And so it, it was disappointing tothem to realize that, Hey, I really
(40:13):
want to do this thing that I've alwayswanted to do and here I am suffering.
My body is not happy with me doing it.
I've told them, because I'veseen it happen multiple times,
I've told them, Hey, the only wayto get through it is exposure.
Right.
if you want to get overthis, you probably can.
There might be a few people whocan't, but, most people can.
And it's really about being exposedto this thing your body doesn't want
(40:36):
you doing until it accepts the factthat, hey, this is my new normal.
And that's really what we're talking.
And it, and it works.
It's worked every timeso far with my students.
and it works for other things too.
You just expose yourself.
This is exposure therapy to,situations in flying that could be
potentially risky or dangerous untilwe get proficient at handling them.
(41:00):
And then we can move on tothings that go even further.
Absolutely.
And one more thing I wanted to mention,and you may have some others, Kent,
but one more thing I wanted to mentionbecause I, I think it's a cool program.
but there's the, the WINGSprogram from the FAA.
but one of the things I like aboutit is that these are experiences.
Everybody knows we have to do a, a flightreview every 24 calendar months, right?
(41:25):
but that's the bare minimum.
And what we've been talking about todayis use opportunities to go practice,
use opportunities to take a flightinstructor, take a course, get an
additional, rating, whatever it takesto expose yourself to more experiences.
More opportunities to learn.
And one of the things that does thatis the WINGS program because There are
(41:46):
different levels, that, or phases theycall them, that you can participate in.
And as you do them, it, it gives youopportunities to expose yourself,
not only to classroom learning,which is part of the program, but
also getting out with an instructorand doing some practice together.
And those are great opportunitiesto expand, push that envelope
(42:09):
one corner at a time.
I really like.
Kent's, analogy there, you're pushingone corner at a time and things that
you do as part of these phases in wings,believe they only last for a year.
I. It's half the time that we haveto do our flight reviews, right?
And so I just love this idea ofcontinual learning, continually pushing
(42:34):
one corner of the envelope at a timeand expanding our abilities, expanding
our Our capabilities, in flying.
So that's one thing I wanted to mentionis that the WINGS program can be a
good way beyond the check ride tocontinually learn and take care of
your, your flight reviews at the sametime, but do them over time instead
(42:54):
of doing them once every two years.
Absolutely.
Um,
this
can't be overly current.
Yes, exactly.
Or overly proficient
okay to get an instrumentproficiency check every six months.
I know a lot of people who do that.
you know, you'll get more out ofit than you will just going up
(43:17):
with a safety pilot or whatever.
Uh, you know, so I, I have never hada situation where I learned something
new about flying and didn't enjoy it.
Um.
You know, sometimes things like
that
going to a wing seminar or, youknow, doing an instrument proficiency
(43:39):
check or something like that, they,they don't necessarily sound fun,
but you're learning about flying.
You're going flying.
It's good stuff.
So get out there and do it.
Yeah, I love, I love what you said there.
It's like you've never learned something.
I. About flying and gone.
(43:59):
Boy, I wish I wouldn't have learned that.
You know, it's always fun.
It always turns out fun.
Well, Kent, that was a great topic.
Thanks for bringing that to us today.
I think we all need to remember thatwe need to expand our capabilities like
we've been talking about, and find reallyfun and, and great ways to do that.
And I think we've coveredmost of them today.
(44:20):
Anything else you wanted toto say before we close it up?
I think that's it.
Get out there and fly.
Get out there and fly.
I love it.
Well, thanks again and we'll talk soon.
All right, we'll see ya.
Hi, welcome back to another studentpilot cast, and specifically a
beyond the check ride segment.
So, as usual, I'm here with Kent.
How you doing, Kent?
Excellent.
How are you doing?
I'm doing great.
Aren't you gonna say somethingabout being able to talk about
flying or something like that?
Oh, I can't even rememberwhat the line was.
(00:25):
It's been so long since we recorded.
So, excellent.
Glad to have you with us, and sowe're gonna be talking today about.
What we do beyond our check ride tocontinue to expand our capabilities or
expand our personal personal minimums.
So a pretty good topic.
(00:46):
We can go a lot of places with it.
How do you wanna start the discussion?
Well, I think a lot of people, Youknow, they've just gone through
all their private pilot training.
they've had all kinds of documentationthat tells them exactly what they need to
do in that airplane to reach their goal.
and sadly, when I, before I was even apilot, I was a lineman and I would see all
(01:10):
these people come and they would train,train, train, train, train and get their
private and you would never see 'em again.
and that's kind of sad 'cause.
I know that for both of us, aviation hasdone wonderful things in our lives and
so it's something that you definitelyshould try to continue with if you can.
there are so many opportunitiesin aviation to do more things.
(01:35):
you know, there's really nobody thathas done everything and so, I think.
Maybe the first step should be to getout there and find out what to do next.
find out what your nichein aviation is gonna be.
I think a lot of people thinkabout becoming an airline pilot
because that's what aviationis to an awful lot of people.
(01:57):
They just simply don't know, thebreadth of opportunities that there
are in aviation for both fun and work.
So there, there are a ton of, ofother opportunities out there.
And so, the next thing after yourprivate is just kind of figuring
out where you're gonna go next.
(02:17):
The other thing about that is whensomeone's getting their private
certificate, for example, all the timeabout aeronautical decision making, and
part of ADM is defining writing down andknowing what your personal minimums are.
That is something that is meant to beexpanded as you gain more experience,
(02:44):
do more things, get better at someof the skills that have to do with
flying the airplane, things like that.
And a lot of times what wedon't talk about is how do we
expand those personal minimums?
How do we go beyond the checkride and start to do that?
And so I think it'd be great ifwe covered that today as well.
(03:07):
Excellent.
yeah, it's all about expandingyour flying skills safely.
Yes.
I.
it safely.
So
yeah, you're right.
When, when you, uh, like the daybefore your check ride, you have those
personal minimums are kind of writtenout for you by your flight instructor
(03:28):
as your solo minimums, and you'reallowed to Do, you know, what, what
solo minimums do you give people?
generally some of the basic ones wouldbe never flying in more than, you know,
15 knots of wind and never flying in morethan, say, an eight knot cross wind until
(03:48):
you get better and better at it As far
Yeah.
goes, of course thenthere's minimums around.
This is actually afunny one to talk about.
there's minimums around visibility andthings like that too because as we know
in most of the air spaces we fly in,three miles of visibility is pretty
much legal, with a few exceptions andthree miles of visibility for somebody
(04:15):
who's learned to fly in Arizona.
might as well be hard IMCbecause we generally out here
have unlimited visibility, 80, ahundred miles, even in the summer.
the only times it gets a little bitlower is from smog or maybe dust blowing
(04:35):
around in the, in the atmosphere.
But it's amazing whenit does get lower here.
gets down to 10, or heaven forbid, youknow, seven, six miles of visibility.
You notice it, right?
And so I wouldn't, uh, ever want one of mystudents to fly in anything less than, say
(04:55):
six or seven miles of visibility becausethey've really had no experience doing it.
And finding an airport and ofunderstanding where you're at when you
can only see straight down, at leastcompared to the way we normally can
see out here, with all of the terrainwe have around us and all of those
sorts of things it can be a big deal.
(05:15):
Now you talk to somebody who flies in theMidwest like you do a lot, Kent, seven,
eight miles of visibility in the summer.
That's just, you know,a Tuesday, know, so,
um,
It's usually 10, but it's usuallynot that much more, you know, the,
right,
automated weather observingsystems and the ATIS are never
going to tell you more than 10.
(05:37):
I, I guess I shouldn't say never.
I have heard, of higher numbersthan that, but that's pretty rare.
point
and you know, I, I rememberthat first flight where it
was only four or five miles ofvisibility after I got my private.
and these days, like if itwas four miles visibility, I'm
going, IFR, you know, there's,
(05:58):
yeah.
Yeah, yeah,
it's really not very much.
yeah.
Yeah,
Yeah.
I.
that distance, especially, ifyou're talking about traffic
opposite direction, that closingdistance is gonna happen real fast.
So,
Yeah.
that, type of thing.
It's kind of funny because of wherewe fly, is a little bit different.
Of course, you've flown in all sortsof places all over the US but but
(06:21):
where we live is sort of different.
And so those, those are going to affectyour personal minimums, of course.
Absolutely.
And you know, here in Wisconsin it isdifferent depending on the time of year.
in the summer when it's really humid,you're not gonna get a whole lot
more than 10 miles, in the winter.
I can take off and seea hundred, 150 miles,
(06:43):
Exactly.
right?
Right.
It gets really dry in the winterand so that that dry air gives
you really good visibility.
Yeah.
speaking of which, I was on a, um,tell, I'm going on a story tangent.
I was on a training flight with oneof my students a couple of months ago.
And, speaking of increasing your personalmini minimums or expanding that envelope.
(07:07):
went out specifically because itwas a very windy day and, um, we
were gonna work on, her groundreference maneuvers because, it
was gonna be pretty challenging.
And so we both thought, Hey,this is a good opportunity.
To do something that's gonna be verychallenging so that when you do it
on your check ride or you know, um,in, in less undesirable conditions,
(07:29):
it's gonna feel real easy, you know?
so we went out and did that, turnedaround to head back towards the airport,
and we realized that the whole eastpart of the valley had been kind of
engulfed in dust because of all the.
'cause of all the wind.
And so again, our visibility probably,you know, it wasn't even close to
(07:49):
marginal VFR, it was probably aboutsix, eight miles, something like that.
But for us, you know, out here,and for this private student who
had never flown in conditions likethat, she just immediately went.
I have no idea where the airport is.
You know,
Yeah.
that I normally use, I can't see.
(08:11):
And uh, so we kinda came back and, askedfor a low approach so that we could
get our bearings, because that's how.
That's how different it is whenyou can normally see 80 miles or
basically un unlimited now allof a sudden you can't see much.
So we came in, did a low approach.
Of course, nobody was flying anymore,so there wasn't a lot of traffic.
(08:34):
And they were like, sure, go ahead.
No problem.
Whatever you need.
So we did a low approach, stayed in thepattern, and then came back down to land.
And that was a great experience for her.
not only for the ground reference,but to get, to see in a safe way, you
know, with an instructor on board,what it's like when your visibility
starts to go to crap, you know?
(08:54):
so that's kind of whatwe're talking about, right?
Yeah.
so, so it's really about, youknow, pushing that envelope,
but doing it in a safe way.
So I know with all your experience,Kent, what does it mean to be able to
push the envelope but do it safely?
Well, the way I always like to say it is.
(09:16):
To become a better pilot, youhave to push your envelope and you
have to expand your envelope, butonly do it one corner at a time.
so something like you aredoing with your student there.
You know, being in the local area andworking with the same controllers you've
got normally and flying the same airplane,you know, you still had a situation
(09:39):
that if she hadn't been with you couldhave been potentially dangerous for her.
Um, I. Now imagine if she had alreadyhad her private, was not up with an
instructor, was maybe, you know, maybehad traveled somewhere and was flying
an unfamiliar airplane and talking withdifferent controllers and all of those
things kind of contribute to, potentiallyoverwhelming the pilot and, and getting
(10:05):
'em into an even more unsafe situation.
one example, uh, that I thought ofis, you know, I went out to the west
coast, this quite a while ago, but, Ijust had a situation where I had the
luxury of both time and money at thesame time, which is incredibly rare.
(10:27):
And, uh, there was a family reunionhappening out in Oregon and I had
decided I was going to fly out to it.
and it was just kind ofa, an epic adventure.
but I did it in an airplanethat I. It was one of those few
airplanes that I don't fly, I wear,
(10:49):
Yeah.
you know, an airplane thatfeels so natural to me that
it's like it's part of my body.
and I think really, I've onlyhad two airplanes that I've
gotten to that point with.
I did take a mountain flying course onthe way out there as well, so, uh, we'll
definitely talk about that a little bit.
but, you know, to, some extent I wastrying to minimize those variables.
(11:13):
Uh, it was also, I took thetrip in a 182 and I was solo.
So even though it was.
Late summer and hot, you know, highdensity altitude in some places.
I had performance to spare because I wasstill several hundred pounds under gross.
I not long after that, somebody I knowwas going to take a similar trip from the
(11:38):
Midwest to the West coast in a light sportaircraft they had never flown before.
Uh, you know, one that allowed themenough useful load to maybe pack
a toothbrush to take with them.
You know, something that.
Didn't carry a wholeheck of a lot of fuel.
You know, there's, there's alot of, uh, lot of space between
(12:00):
all the airports out there.
And, I was just thinking,man, that's, that's too much.
and I also thought that theymight have been somewhat inspired
by the trip I took and I calledup and said, dude, don't do it.
Um.
I feel like you're, you're biting off toomany new things at once, being in a new
(12:23):
airplane with limited performance in a newenvironment, going through the mountains,
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
and luckily he said, yeah, I kindof figured that out myself already.
So I've, I've already madethe decision not to do it.
kinda what you
now.
pushing one corner of theenvelope at a time, right?
Right,
off
right.
(12:43):
that are gonna be different, orpushing your personal minimums rather
than doing a whole bunch at once.
Right.
Okay.
and you know, you can, uh, ifyou're bored with flying right now,
pick something to get better at.
sometimes we don't think of justgoing out and practicing something.
(13:05):
I know a guy though that kind ofkicked me in the butt a little bit.
I was in the pattern at an airportwhere he was based and just kind
of trying out a new airplane.
And there he is on the CrosswindRunway in his Cessna 140.
You know, doing, uh, doing crosswindspractice just to get better at
(13:25):
it and to keep his skills up.
I went, huh, I shouldprobably do that more often.
Yeah.
but, you know, same sort of thing
A lot of times we kind of stop trainingwhen we get our certificate and start
going is, you know what we talkedabout in one of our previous episodes.
wants to go somewhere and that'sawesome and you learn a ton when you
(13:47):
do that, but sometimes should just goup and practice some things, right,
like you did when you were a student.
Absolutely.
you know, I'm the kind of person who,when it snows here, I go out for a drive.
so I'm, I'm a little bit.
Mixed up in the head already,I suppose, but, if there's good
(14:08):
flyable IMC, I'm gonna go fly.
Um, you know, there's no substitutefor actual, in fact, when you were
talking about Arizona flight conditions,there's an awful lot of people up in
this part of the world who think it isabsolutely crazy that it's possible to
get an instrument rating without everhaving seen the inside of a cloud.
(14:30):
yes,
Um, but you guys don't see cloudsat all very much down there, so,
Well, well, and when we do it's, youknow, towering Cumulonimbus and you
don't want to be anywhere near it anyway.
but every once in awhile we do get layers.
A lot of times it is cumulus ofsome sort, but we, you know, it's
(14:53):
mild enough that we can get it.
And so, yes.
We do the same thing be especiallybecause it's so difficult to find
flyable IMC, that when it happens, yousee a lot of people heading up into it.
So that's a good thing.
That's a good thing.
Absolutely.
so when you see conditions that are closerto the edges of your envelope, that's
(15:16):
the time to go fly and to go practice.
And, you know, let's say you havedecided that your personal minimum
for crosswinds is, you know, nomore than 10 knots across wind.
And maybe there's 12 today.
Well, when's the last time you flew in 10.
was it last week, last month,or was it two years ago?
(15:38):
And so that should tell youwhether that's okay to, to push
that corner of your envelope.
you know, I think I'm to the pointwhere, I've had a crosswind, direct
crosswind gusting to 35 knots.
Um.
Would I go out and do that today?
Yeah, maybe not because, you know,I'm, it's, it's been a little while
(15:58):
since I got a really good crosswind.
I know I've done it in the past,but I haven't done it recently.
So,
Right.
Right.
I. You definitely want to at leastthink about that, you know, you
don't necessarily have to have doneit last week, but be proficient,
in something before you push it.
So pushing just a little bit,especially when you're by yourself.
(16:21):
But if you feel like it's, you know,maybe your proficiency isn't where it
needs to be to expand your envelopeto 12 or 15 knots of crosswind.
Or maybe there's too many things going.
Maybe the visibility is a littlelow and the crosswind, that's when
you, you know, text your instructor.
And say, Hey, you got some time to go up.
This looks like pretty goodpractice conditions, and if the
(16:43):
instructor's available, they'regonna want to go do it too.
Absolutely.
yeah, get somebody
I am reminded of a time that therewere some really horrendous winds and
somebody had a lesson scheduled and theywere sure they could handle it, and,
uh, it's a good thing they were withtheir instructor because, yeah, it was,
it was far enough beyond what they wereactually proficient at that the instructor
(17:06):
had to get 'em back on the ground.
But, you know, those are aregreat opportunities as well.
I.
even with private students who aren'tbeyond the check ride yet, those
types of opportunities are pure gold.
And I just had this experience lastweek with a post solo, uh, student
of mine we were going up to help herget familiar with the practice area.
(17:31):
'cause next he's gonna be soloing tothe practice area we had a dual lesson
planned and it got really windy.
It was, you know, direct crosswind,gusting about 20 But we weren't really
spending a ton of time in the pattern.
we were going to the practicearea, and so it was fine.
She did great.
but when we were coming backin, she had never, she had never
(17:53):
landed in conditions like that.
And I told her, Hey, thisis gonna be challenging.
I'm gonna be on the controls with you.
I, and I'm going to,you know, show you how.
Easy.
This is to put the thing on the thingif you know how to control the airplane,
if you've got experience doing it.
And, her response afterwe touched down was, wow.
(18:14):
I had no, I idea that it would belike being kind of in a side slip.
So, down one wheel way before the other,then the, the other wheel and then the
nose wheel, and lots of cross control and.
she was doing great on her landingswhen there's minimal wind, it was a
(18:35):
testament to me that, I mean, these, theseopportunities to expand your experience
with somebody more experienced on boardto help make it safe, man, that is just
absolute learning gold right there.
Definitely.
and I've heard of, I've heard of peoplesaying things like, oh, I couldn't land in
(18:56):
a 15 knot cross 'cause I ran outta rudder.
Uh, I call bs.
Um, I didn't run outta rudder with a35 knot crosswinds, so obviously some
aircraft types are better than others,but, especially Cessna, you know, they,
they build airplanes that you can, I.
Beat the living hell out of.
Yeah.
(19:17):
so I, I would guess that I couldprobably, you know, if, if I had the
proficiency that if I was landing a182 and a 45 not cross wind, I might
start to hit the stops on the rudder.
But, you know, the planes, theplanes generally going to be
better than you are as a pilot.
Yep.
It mostly comes down toyour proficiency for sure.
(19:39):
yeah.
So I alluded to it a little bit ago,but there are also times where you don't
want to call your own flight instructor.
You want to go and get somebodywho's a specialist in something.
and
totally agree.
that I mentioned was a mountain flyingcourse that honestly, to this day.
(20:04):
That was some of the best learningflying and some of the most
fun I've had in an airplane.
I, uh, I do have to give props here.
It was, uh, Lori McCall's team up atMountain Canyon flying in McCall, Idaho.
a lot of people are aware of the,uh, Colorado Pilots Association
(20:24):
courses as well, which, um, I thinkthose happen like three times a year.
and it's a, it's a big deal.
They have a whole lot of instructors and awhole lot of people learning, uh, whereas.
Mountain Canyon flying is onethat, you know, it's a, a company
that does it all the time.
but one of the things that I reallyappreciated about that course up
in McCall is they have a, an areaup there called the Frank Church
(20:50):
River of No Return Wilderness Area.
And there are a ton of thesecool little Forest Service strips
around there that are just.
Really, really cool.
check out Johnson Creekif you get a chance.
I think it's 3U2, really great littleplace where you can camp and, the
(21:11):
mountains around there are justbeautiful and you really do have to
fly right around them to get in there.
but there's some really, really neatstuff that you can get to in the back
country and, uh, so that that courseup there, being able to actually fly
into the mountains as well as justaround them was just super cool.
Um.
(21:31):
So that's one example ofgetting specialist instruction.
definitely.
specialty instruction right there.
You want somebody who's,really adept at teaching that.
Absolutely.
aerobatics, of course, is another one,
Mm-hmm.
where these are things that are maybemore obvious than some others, but
(21:54):
going and getting some specialty flightinstruction, is just a, a great way to
have some fun and to learn a whole lotabout flying in a short period of time.
and doing these thingsmakes you a better pilot.
Overall as well.
you know, with a mountain flying course,you learn a lot about not only density
altitude, but just how air currents flyaround objects and that sort of thing.
(22:17):
you know, I can probably better predictnow when it's gonna be turbulent near
downtown Chicago because I learnedabout what causes turbulence in the
mountains, mountain skyscrapers, whatever.
The air doesn't know the difference, so.
Yeah.
Kent, I don't even think I've had achance to tell you this, but at the
beginning of this year, I actually tookan aerobatics, lesson, which was pretty
(22:42):
cool.
extra, extra 300.
Yeah.
Nice.
yes, I have a friend who had an extra300, and that's what I, that's what I
did as well as I went up with, with him.
And, uh, I mean, boy, I wishextras weren't so expensive, but
they are awfully fun airplanes.
you know, we started with spins and hedemonstrated the first spin and I was
(23:06):
like, oh my gosh, that was really scary.
Let's do it again.
Yeah.
And yeah, I learned how to do loopsand rolls and hammerheads and and
you know, you can watch an awfullot of air shows, but the first
time you try and do it for yourself,it's like, oh, that isn't at all.
(23:26):
Like, it looks like,
Yeah.
you know, something like ahammer head or a tail slide looks
really simple, but you know.
Airplanes have three axes andthey all affect each other.
Um, and so you learn somethings that are, that are really
interesting, by doing that.
(23:48):
So what did you learn in the aerobaticscourse that helps your everyday flying?
I.
Well, for one, so the airplanes I fly ona day-to-day basis are so much more stable
than an extra 300 by design, that youwould think there wouldn't be a lot of.
(24:10):
transfer.
And in some ways, you know, there aren't,but what you get is this ability to
experience a truly maneuverable airplaneand to see what, to see what's capable
with the three primary flight controls.
being able to, Manipulate an airplanearound those axes in a way that,
(24:32):
and, and at a speed that you'vejust never experienced before.
And what it does is it, what itdid for me is it sort of sped
up my flying clock a little bit.
And so just that little bit of experience,and it would happen even more and
more if I did it more and more if itwasn't so dang expensive like you said.
(24:55):
It sort of speeds up your clock alittle bit so that when you start to
see things get outta whack in a morestable training airplane, you, you
recognize it earlier you're able tocorrect it earlier in a smoother manner.
I'm telling my students this all the time,like I. Catching something early is key
because then the correction doesn't evenfeel like a correction to your passenger.
(25:18):
You know, it's, it's just a slight change,and I think that's one of the things that
the aerobatic training did for me, alongwith it just being an absolute blast.
I. Of
being able to tumble around in anairplane, but, um, being in a high
performance airplane, that's just faster.
I think that is part of expanding yourenvelope a little bit and, seeing that
(25:41):
if things are gonna happen that fast,I'm gonna speed up my clock a little
bit so that I can catch things earlier.
So that's one of the things I noticed.
Yeah, that's a great point.
And you don't need anaerobatics course to do that.
You know, go get yourselfa high performance checkout
or complex or something.
Just get into a faster airplane, and
That's right.
I. I mean, honestly, what made the Mooneya relatively easy transition for me was
(26:05):
that I wasn't flying trainers before that.
I was flying stuff likethe 182 and the DA 40.
So I was used to the a hundredand thirty five, a hundred forty
knot speed range by that point.
and so jumping up to 170 was not thatbig of a deal, whereas if I was coming
from something like a 1 72, eh, itmight have been more of a big deal.
(26:28):
So, yeah, that, that definitely helps.
and honestly, I think there's, youget to a point where, you know, I
didn't necessarily feel like theTBM was even that much faster.
Hmm.
You know, if you think about it interms of percentages, yeah, it's faster
at cruise, but once you get down intothe approach regime, it's not that
(26:52):
much faster than the Mooney even.
And so I feel like once you, once youspeed that clock up, even in something
that's 170 knots, well that gets youused to thinking in the right way.
That when you jump into somethingthat's 300 knots, it's not as big
of a deal as it otherwise would be.
(27:12):
Yeah.
You know, if you can, if you can staywell ahead of 170 knot airplane, you can
probably stay with a 300 knot airplane.
and then work your way up from there.
Um,
when you figure out descent calculations.
That's the important one on those things.
right.
That's the big thing.
And you know, when you're flying a fastairplane in the flight levels, well,
(27:36):
you just have to plan your descent.
you know.
You're the number of miles outyou are when you start your
descent is gonna be a lot higher,
Sometimes
the descent lasts a lot longer.
Right, right.
Absolutely.
you know, coming back into Milwaukeehere, you know, you always cross a fix
southwest of Chicago at 24,000 feet.
(27:58):
So if you start at 31, you knowyou're somewhere down in central
Illinois when you start your descent.
And honestly, I started figuring out howto plan descents when I was flying the 182
Oh
know, it's not quite like a 1 72where it's like, oh, there's the
airport, let me pull the throttle andit'll just go right down, you know?
(28:20):
Yep.
so yeah, there's, there's so manydifferent opportunities to, to expand
your envelope in, in many differentways and, and they're all fun.
of those, yeah, they're all fun.
It's all flying, right?
It's all great experience.
And one of the things we talk about allthe time in flying, risk management,
right, is having an out, you have to beable to anticipate what are the risks and
(28:44):
what are the ways that I'm going to eitheravoid those risks or mitigate them or.
Handle them if they turninto an issue, right?
So, um, one of those ways we've talkedabout, well several of them we've
talked about like taking a specialtyinstructor, doing a course, um, taking
your instructor with you when you'reslightly expanding those envelopes.
(29:06):
But, you know, we can do thesethings ourselves as solo.
when we're on cross countries,we're gonna be expanding some
of our envelopes because.
like we've talked about before, you,you're gonna run into situations
where you haven't specificallytrained for that situation.
And so you're gonna have to use somejudgment and you're gonna have to handle
(29:29):
the situation as pilot in command.
And in doing so, you've just addedto your quiver, an arrow that.
You know how to handle that in the future,or you might learn from handling it
badly the first time you did it right.
But while we're doing that, alwaystry and have these outs so we
can do that anytime we're flying.
(29:50):
Push the envelope just a little bit,like you said, one corner at a time.
Just make sure you have an out, youknow what the risk is and you know
how you're gonna handle that risk.
Absolutely.
You know, if you're doing crosswindpractice at a single runway airport
and it's at or above your currentpersonal minimums and you're trying
to expand that part of your envelope.
(30:11):
Don't make yourself force it there.
you know,
Mm-hmm.
ready to, you know, land at thatairport across town that has a
runway in a different orientationthat's more into the wind.
and doing stuff like that has made alot easier if you already have a plan
in place for, okay, if I have to dothat, who's gonna give me a ride home?
You know?
(30:32):
Yeah.
So there's, there's a lot of,uh, pre-planning that you can
do that makes tougher decisionseasier once you're in the air.
in fact, when I know that I'mgoing to get into a tough situation
in the air, I try and make allthe decisions well beforehand.
So being able to make some of thetougher decisions beforehand, and.
(30:56):
Putting hard limits on them that youforce yourself to stick to, uh, is
important and it helps you to make abetter decision, once you're in the air.
so don't let yourself fall into that.
Get-There-Itis trap of, well,it's only two knots more
than I said it was gonna be.
it's only this, it's only that.
(31:17):
You know, we talked about that alittle bit in the last episode, and
in fact, now I'm thinking of anotherinstance and it's back to fuel again.
where I had flown down for a pumpkinbombing session with a couple of friends
and we were flying back late at night.
And, you know, luckily we wereflying in an airplane that told
(31:39):
us what our reserve would be.
and I pretty much never gowith less than an hour reserve.
and I basically said on the wayback, okay, well we're, we're kind
of getting to where we might onlyland with an hour reserve, so.
You know, if that number theregoes below 10 gallons, we're
just gonna stop for fuel.
Even though we would be fine, eventhough we would have 59 minutes
(32:02):
reserve when we get there, youknow, if that number goes below 10
gallons, we're gonna stop for fuel.
Um,
Requirement.
right.
there are so many people who have runout of fuel because of that last minute.
Yep.
So that's one of those thingswhere it's, it's real easy to
make the decision beforehand.
(32:24):
It's not so easy to makethe decision in the moment.
it's real easy to talk yourselfinto, well, I'm tired and
I want to get home quicker.
And, you know, I don't reallyneed the full hour reserve.
You know, 45 minutes is okay accordingto the FAA, and so I'm not gonna, I'm not
gonna bother landing for fuel now, but.
(32:45):
Then who knows what's gonna happen.
You know, reserves are there for a reason.
And, uh, the margins that webuild in for safety, fuel,
and otherwise in our personalminimums, those are all important.
Yeah,
those decisions made in advance asfar easier to deal with in the moment.
Right, which is the, the beautyof personal minimums anyway,
(33:07):
as long as you stick to them.
so it may seem like we'recontradicting ourselves a little bit.
So we're gonna dive into this,these personal minimums that we.
That we all try and have super importantand sticking to them is super important.
Of course, today's topic isabout expanding those, and I
just wanna make a distinction.
Some of our personal minimums have todo with safety margins and some of our
(33:29):
personal minimums have to do with ourskills, our proficiency as a pilot.
it's the, the proficiency or skills asa pilot that we're wanting to expand.
We want to expand our flying abilities,which will expand our safety margins,
which will allow us to make flightsand do flights that are really fun.
(33:51):
And sometimes we could make a landingbecause we've expanded our skills that
we wouldn't have been able to beforewe expanded our personal minimums.
So all of these things are good,we're talking about safety margins,
like for instance, fuel and thingslike that, we wanna make sure we're
sticking to these personal minimums,because that's what they're there for.
(34:12):
They're there to help us not makea bad decision in the moment.
when, when we talk about.
you know, expanding the envelope.
That's not where, whatwe're really talking about.
We're talking about expanding yourcapabilities as a pilot and your
proficiency and things like that.
So I just wanted to make that distinction'cause it almost sounds like we're
(34:33):
contradicting ourselves a little bit.
Do you have any comments on that, Kent?
Yeah, I mean, I think, To someextent, you know, to, to expand your
personal minimums, you're going tohave to get into a situation where.
You are going beyond what they used to be.
Yep.
like we said before, one thing ata time, you know, if I am expanding
(34:55):
my personal minimums for crosswinds,I'm going to go do that on a day
where I can just go do it by myself.
I'm not necessarily gonna do it whenI'm, you know, a thousand miles away from
home with my family on board, you know?
Right, right.
all of these things, uh, and.
You know, let's talk a little bit moreabout personal minimums, because I think
(35:16):
a lot of people, you know, a lot of theType A personalities that we sometimes
get in aviation are averse to havingsuch things because it seems like it's
a weakness or something like that.
and it's also really easy to say,well, it's not that far beyond
my personal minimums, right?
I will say that I think that there isthumb room for, Going beyond, of course,
(35:43):
like we've been talking about in the,quest to make yourself a better pilot.
But again, like we were talkingabout earlier, one thing at a time.
Yep.
so one way that, some air carriersand the civil air patrol and
some private pilots will do this.
is they'll use what's called aflight risk assessment tool, and
(36:05):
that assigns a certain number ofpoints to each little thing that
might cause a little bit of risk.
And so there may be things that arewithin all of your personal minimums,
but they're within all of your personalminimums at once, if you know what I mean.
you know, you might have a flight that's,well, it's six miles of visibility.
(36:29):
That's okay.
And I'm gonna have a crosswindthat's right up against my limits.
Oh.
And there's gonna be a ceilingthat's only 500 feet above my
cruising altitude and this and that.
Even if it checks all the boxesfor your personal minimums,
that's not a good flight to take.
so if you want to get into a formalflight risk assessment tool, I think
(36:53):
the, the Civil Air Patrol one mightbe available publicly on the web.
I'm not sure about that.
There's a
don't know if you're awareof any that are out there.
Yeah, there's, there'sa few of them out there.
You can look them up.
Um, some of them are apps on yourphone, some of them are spreadsheets,
some of them are websites.
(37:13):
So, yeah, there, there's differentways to do that, but however you do it.
you're talking about is risk assessment,which is what we have been entrusted to
do as pilots in command of an aircraftfiguring out there's, there's too
many risks to mitigate all at once.
And that's a no-go decision, right?
(37:34):
And we have to be willing to
Right.
about that at length in our last episodeabout probably the biggest safety tool
we have for CrossCountry airplanes.
CrossCountry flying, Ishould say, is, flexibility.
in our schedule, flexibility,being willing to divert, being
willing to, call a no go.
so, that's the same thing when, when we'reassessing any flight is, you know, if
(37:59):
there's too many things that are close tothe edge of the envelope, really have to
assess, can I mitigate all of this risk?
All at once.
And that's, that's one of theresponsibilities that we have as pilots
in command that we should never forget.
That's a big, big responsibility.
Absolutely.
And you know, several minutes ago,bill stopped me because I started
(38:22):
to tell a story that I had told on adifferent episode and forgotten about.
and I was just thinking, if weever get repetitive on the show
here, there's a reason for that.
Those are the lessons that we havelearned that have really stuck.
true.
you know, and so those arethe, the most important things.
(38:42):
To listen to are those things that keepcoming up again and again when we're
talking about safety is, you know, theycome up many times for many reasons.
and those are the thingsthat are really important.
That's
and you know what?
If you hear Bill say somethingand then I say it, and then some
(39:03):
flight instructor at your airportsays it, there's a reason for that.
so
is true.
I.
of the bottom line here, is we,we need to find safe ways to
expose ourselves situations thatare beyond our comfort level or
beyond our, our, current minimums.
(39:25):
as we get exposed to those situationsin a safe manner where we have our outs.
we have our risk mitigation in place, thenthey're gonna become less risky for us.
They're gonna become lessdangerous and and less scary.
And that's what we want to doas we expand our envelope, as
we expand our capabilities andbecome more and more proficient.
(39:48):
And so what we've talkedabout today is, is.
Just a few ways that you can do that,and I'm sure you can think of dozens of
other ways that you can do that as well.
It, it's funny, I've had a couple ofstudents who started flight training
and, and realized that they werereally susceptible air sickness.
And so it, it was disappointing tothem to realize that, Hey, I really
(40:13):
want to do this thing that I've alwayswanted to do and here I am suffering.
My body is not happy with me doing it.
I've told them, because I'veseen it happen multiple times,
I've told them, Hey, the only wayto get through it is exposure.
Right.
if you want to get overthis, you probably can.
There might be a few people whocan't, but, most people can.
And it's really about being exposedto this thing your body doesn't want
(40:36):
you doing until it accepts the factthat, hey, this is my new normal.
And that's really what we're talking.
And it, and it works.
It's worked every timeso far with my students.
and it works for other things too.
You just expose yourself.
This is exposure therapy to,situations in flying that could be
potentially risky or dangerous untilwe get proficient at handling them.
(41:00):
And then we can move on tothings that go even further.
Absolutely.
And one more thing I wanted to mention,and you may have some others, Kent,
but one more thing I wanted to mentionbecause I, I think it's a cool program.
but there's the, the WINGSprogram from the FAA.
but one of the things I like aboutit is that these are experiences.
Everybody knows we have to do a, a flightreview every 24 calendar months, right?
(41:25):
but that's the bare minimum.
And what we've been talking about todayis use opportunities to go practice,
use opportunities to take a flightinstructor, take a course, get an
additional, rating, whatever it takesto expose yourself to more experiences.
More opportunities to learn.
And one of the things that does thatis the WINGS program because There are
(41:46):
different levels, that, or phases theycall them, that you can participate in.
And as you do them, it, it gives youopportunities to expose yourself,
not only to classroom learning,which is part of the program, but
also getting out with an instructorand doing some practice together.
And those are great opportunitiesto expand, push that envelope
(42:09):
one corner at a time.
I really like.
Kent's, analogy there, you're pushingone corner at a time and things that
you do as part of these phases in wings,believe they only last for a year.
I. It's half the time that we haveto do our flight reviews, right?
And so I just love this idea ofcontinual learning, continually pushing
(42:34):
one corner of the envelope at a timeand expanding our abilities, expanding
our Our capabilities, in flying.
So that's one thing I wanted to mentionis that the WINGS program can be a
good way beyond the check ride tocontinually learn and take care of
your, your flight reviews at the sametime, but do them over time instead
(42:54):
of doing them once every two years.
Absolutely.
Um,
this
can't be overly current.
Yes, exactly.
Or overly proficient
okay to get an instrumentproficiency check every six months.
I know a lot of people who do that.
you know, you'll get more out ofit than you will just going up
(43:17):
with a safety pilot or whatever.
Uh, you know, so I, I have never hada situation where I learned something
new about flying and didn't enjoy it.
Um.
You know, sometimes things like
that
going to a wing seminar or, youknow, doing an instrument proficiency
(43:39):
check or something like that, they,they don't necessarily sound fun,
but you're learning about flying.
You're going flying.
It's good stuff.
So get out there and do it.
Yeah, I love, I love what you said there.
It's like you've never learned something.
I. About flying and gone.
(43:59):
Boy, I wish I wouldn't have learned that.
You know, it's always fun.
It always turns out fun.
Well, Kent, that was a great topic.
Thanks for bringing that to us today.
I think we all need to remember thatwe need to expand our capabilities like
we've been talking about, and find reallyfun and, and great ways to do that.
And I think we've coveredmost of them today.
(44:20):
Anything else you wanted toto say before we close it up?
I think that's it.
Get out there and fly.
Get out there and fly.
I love it.
Well, thanks again and we'll talk soon.
All right, we'll see ya.
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The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.