Ep 14 (K)nox: The Rob Knox Story Part 2

Episode Transcript
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(00:23):
Do do the bottle. The nextinterview is with Aaron Truss, who is

(01:03):
the director of Knox The Rob KnoxStory. He was a close friend of
Rob's and has been heavily involved inthe Rob Knox Foundation. I'd speak to
Damien as well. To Damien onone, I'd like to introduce you to
the man who brought myself, LadyJustice Podcast and True Crime Fixed Podcast together.

(01:27):
Aaron Truss, thank you for takingthe time to speak with me today.
Can you please introduce yourself and justtell us a little bit about you.
So my name is Aaron Truss.I am the director of Knox the
Rob Knox Story. I was veryclose friends of Rob and I'm extremely honored

(01:48):
to be bringing his story to thebig screen. And what part did you
play in creating the documentary? SoI was the director and what I'll start
again, I am the director andeditor as well as executive producer of The
Rob Nook Story. Some big responsibilityin that documentary. Then how did you

(02:13):
you sort of touched upon it thatyou were friends with Rob. Is this
how you got involved in this project? So Colin, Rob's father, Colin
got in touch with me just tobasically update me on an ongoing project,
a documentary about Rob's life, andI'd been interviewed for it back in twenty

(02:36):
twelve, but there hadn't been muchnews on it. I wasn't really sure
what status the film was in.It kind of went into a radio silence
for a bit. Colin and Idiscussed the idea of just just taking a
look at what had been put onfilm already, and immediately I knew there

(02:59):
was something within the project that couldbe something great, not just telling Rob's
story, but also highlighting knife crime. This was about twenty eighteen and knife
crime had started rising, like itwas in the news more than it had
been in previous years, and itwas one of those feelings where it just

(03:21):
kind of felt like, we needto do this film. We need to
tell Rob's story, but by tellingRob's story, you're actually telling catless other
stories of people who've been infected byknife crime knife violence in the UK.
So it kind of went hand inglove. Really. It was. There
was no question about getting involved inthis project, and after a couple of

(03:42):
dummy runs with some previous footage,Colin basically turned around to me and said,
I want you for the job.I want you to direct and helm
this, which is a huge responsibilitybecause I've never done anything long form like
this before. My experience had beenmaking short form content for Dad's Army,

(04:06):
the Limehouse, Gollum, a lotof special features, documentary special features for
Blu ray home releases, that kindof thing, the music videos as well.
So this was a big endeavor andI felt that at this point in
my career, if I was goingto ever embark on a feature film,

(04:27):
then I would be so proud tohave it be about my friend Rob.
Can I ask you this, whenyou set about doing a project such as
this, how much of an emotionaltoll did it take on you? And
all of those who were involved inthis project who knew Rob. This was

(04:55):
an extremely draining production, just interms of the sheer fact that I know
Rob is in my thoughts every day. I often think about him and the
good times we had. But whenyou opened that can of worms and you
have to go through everything, notjust his life, because Rob had as

(05:16):
short as Rob's life was, hehad a fantastic life. He had a
fantastic family, had a fantastic groupof friends which I was lucky to be
a part of. But you aregoing to and this is something that I
was very wary of taking on theproject, which was I am going to
have to cover the night he died. I am going to cover the bad
things that happened to Rob and hisfamily, and that, to me,

(05:42):
gave me complete anxiety. There werelots of sleepless nights. My girlfriend,
bless her, she had to putup with a lot of mood swings just
because you are reliving it. Essentially, not only are you piecing everything that
happened together for audiences to see ina way that people are gonna understand what

(06:04):
happened, but when you do godown that hole, it's very hard to
get out of. You know,I'm sitting here at my computer editing things
together as we're filming as well,so I can get a good idea of
sequences how they should be laid out. And for example, we get to

(06:24):
the hospital and Rob is pronounced dead, and that took its toll on me.
You know. There are some interviewswith Colin and Sally and Jamie which
just knocked the wind out of you, and you can't help but just down
tools and walk away for a bitbecause it is so hard, and I

(06:47):
didn't think it would be as hardas it as it would have been,
because obviously I lived some aspect ofthe events that happened. I wasn't there,
but I had my own experiences ofhow I found out about it,
what it meant to me. Butto relive it through Nick Jones, to

(07:09):
relive it through Jamie, that wasreally hard. I'm not gonna lie it
does again. I said it keptme up at night, and it really
did. I'd be laying in bedit is in my head. But also
going back to what actually happened atthe Metro Bar, and it really really

(07:30):
is hard. But at the endof the day, when you look at
the first run of the film,when we had an edit together, which
was last year, and we watchedit all back with the family, and
we had a few little screenings foryou know, Rob's friends, Rob's family,
and I don't know what's harder puttingthe documentary together on my own,

(07:54):
sitting in my office doing it,or having to watch it all the way
through with Jamie or with Rob's family. And it was extremely hard because as
a storyteller and you know personally haswoven this together, you know certain bits
are coming up in the film thatare going to cause distress, and we

(08:15):
had to make it as realistic andas truthful as possible. So that was
hard. I think, having beenfortunate enough to watch the documentary, I
think I can only imagine because asa viewer who had no personal connection to

(08:37):
Rob the you get this sort ofyou're happy when we're talking about I mean,
as you say, Rob had ashort life but crammed so much in
it was I couldn't believe it.With all his acting jobs that he did.
There's that sort of that, thereis that happiness, that joy in

(09:01):
watching that on the screen, andthen there are those it's just complete roller
coaster because then there are those momentswhere you're you can feel yourself going and
so too. I think it's atestament to everybody involved in this project that
they were willing to relive something quitetraumatic, so traumatic for Jamie for example,

(09:30):
and to with the bigger aim Isuppose of creating awareness. That's what
this whole project is about. SoI think I think that's absolutely incredible,
and it is an incredible documentary.What can you tell us about this documentary
without giving away any spoilers? Okay, Um, that's a tough question.

(09:58):
I think I can tell you quitebit about the documentary. Actually, you
were mentioning about the fact that youget close to Rob as a viewer as
an audience member, and that wassomething that Colin and I agreed with from
the very start of the project whenI joined on, and I made it
a mission of mine to find asmuch photos, find as much far as

(10:22):
I could find, as much footageof Rob in his acting career, as
well as home videos things like that, and I loved the home videos.
Home videos are fantastic. There's stuffin there where you know I had never
seen before. Rob's family hadn't seenfor years, just because they were in
an attic somewhere gathering dust. Andto play it all back and watch it

(10:46):
was one of the highlights of workingon this film because obviously I knew Rob
very well, but to see himon holiday, to see him in the
Cinderella Thank you to Nikki, becauseI did chase that footage for a long
time. It's definitely worth the chasingthough, definitely definitely, And it just

(11:11):
became something that Colin and I decidedthat we needed as much Rob in there
as possible, and the way tobuild a narrative. You know, we
were very conscious that we didn't wanta typical true crime documentary where we focused
too much on the negative, becausethen your character and his the whole,

(11:35):
you know, the color and theshape of him, just becomes someone who
died, and we didn't want that. We wanted people. We wanted Rob
to be the main character of ourfilm as if it was a story like
a typical movie. We wanted peopleto actually go through the heartbreak, the
moments that we lose Rob. Wethought that was very important to keep in

(11:56):
there. But it would only matterif people knew who Rob was. Rob
wasn't an angel. He was quitecheeky. He there is a lot of
flesh and texture there that just neededto be included. And I think that's
why the documentary works so well,because he isn't just some on the face

(12:18):
of the son who is cut downHarry Potter actor cut down in the prime
of his life. This is someonethat you follow essentially from birth to wanting
to be an actor, getting thejob done. And you know, when
Rob gets the gig in Harry Potter, we celebrate with him. It's an

(12:39):
exciting part of the film. Youknow, will he get it won't he
get it. Of course we knowhe got it, but the journey we
take just makes the events that soonfollow all the more poignant and gravely serious.
Absolutely, speaking of Rob project isone of a number of things I

(13:05):
spoke to Joe, as you know, And when Joe and I were talking,
I said, what's incredible is thatthis is a These are family members,
friends who have lost someone so closeto them, such a bright light
in their life, and yet they'vetaken something so tragic and they've turned it

(13:30):
into They've charged all their energy intothis documentary. But also the Rob Knox
Foundation. Can you tell the listenersplease about the purpose of this foundation.
Well, the Rob Knox Foundation cameinto existence a year after Robert died.

(13:52):
I believe that it takes a yearto it takes a year for charity to
become a charity. As far asI think that, I think it's still
the same rules apply now. Itwasn't called the Rob Knox Foundation when it
started, but eventually it became abit of a monster. It kind of
snowballed. Rob's death was a hugewake up call simply because of the connection

(14:20):
to Harry Potter, I think,and the which he passed. So the
Foundation quickly started finding its feet whenit tapped into wanting harsher sentences on people
who carry knives in the UK,and that was something that Colin and Sally

(14:41):
it became their mission for the nextcouple of years, working with Gordon Brown
going to ten Downing Street, reallygetting to the heart of the issues.
That eventually begun to branch out intothe art side of things as well,
which Colin pretty much heads himself,which was the Rob Knox Film Festival,

(15:05):
which is another branch of the Foundation, which does a fantastic job. I'll
get to that in a bit,the Rob Knox Film Academy, which probably
does even more than the Film Festival, to be honest. But the Foundation
itself originally was set up to highlightknife crime in the UK, visits schools,

(15:26):
visit prisons, talking to people about, you know, something that hasn't
really affected a lot of people.If you're not affected by knife crime,
then it's just not going to affectyou at all. Really, It's it's
one of those things where unless youknow someone or have lost someone, it
doesn't become gravely real. So thatwas the job of the Foundation in the

(15:48):
very beginning was going out there usingRob's name, using his image from Harry
Potter to spread the word. AndI'm very happy to say that still going
to this day, twelve years later, the Foundation is still doing a fantastic
job of speaking to people visiting schools, and the foundation with the Film Festival

(16:14):
and the Film Academy, they're stillgoing strong as well. So I think
that's just a testament to Rob's toRob's name and his legacy. Really absolutely,
I love the idea of there beingthis film festival, and when you
and I have spoken before, you'vesaid that you get entries from all over,

(16:37):
you know, all over the globe. You get entries and films of
all different genres, styles, natures, etc. And I think, knowing
that Rob was a lover of thearts and drama, I think that is
an amazing way, an amazing tributeto somebody. I think that's I think

(17:00):
it's about if someone wanted to supportthe Foundation or take part maybe in the
film festival, how can they doso? Okay, so if you want
to know more about Rob and theFoundation, the best place to go is
to Rob Knox dot org. Sothis will I'll put that in the show

(17:22):
notes fantastic. So Rob Knox dotorg has all the information about Rob his
family. There's some photos there.They're also available on Facebook, Twitter,
so you can find out all informationabout what the foundation does, who they're
working with. I believe Colin isstarting a blog on Rob Knox dot org

(17:44):
so he'll be able to keep peopleposted on developments with the foundation, especially
the documentary as well. The documentaryhas its own social presence on Twitter.
You can find it at how hashtagRob Knox film or on Facebook it's Rob
Knox Documentary. So we operate justwe operate slightly differently to the Foundation,

(18:10):
but we felt it was very importantto keep those aspects separate because otherwise it
just gets too complicated otherwise. Butyeah, if you want to find out
about the foundation or the documentary,we are on all socials. Perfect And
are there any final thoughts that youhave that you'd like to share with those

(18:30):
who are listening. I would liketo thank everyone who's listening to this podcast
right now. It's been an absolutepleasure working with you, Emily Steve Chantel
on this. I see I don'treally do podcasts, and it's absolutely fantastic
to be appearing or being able totell Rob's story on three in one massive

(18:55):
episode collection. It's amazing. Itjust blows my mind how lovely, how
warm the true crime community is.I'm very new to it, so I
never once considered the documentary to betrue crime, but actually it's very true
crime, and I'm still learning theropes as we're going. I just want

(19:21):
to say thank you to everyone who'sbeen listening to these podcasts, who's given
us the time of day. Yeah, thank you, and I can't wait
to show you the documentary. Andyou really need to those who are listening,
you need to watch this documentary.All of this is thanks to Aaron,
who we're thankful back at you becauseyou're the one who brought us together

(19:44):
to collaborate on this project. AndI think even though we're three separate podcasts,
the fact that we can come togethertell Rob's story and hopefully raise awareness
about the documentary, about the foundation, about the film festival, but also
there is the more serious aspect,which is around knife crime. I'll leave

(20:10):
the links in the show notes foryou to have a look at. Please
please please if you can support thefoundation, even if you just go and
share it whatever, Please please pleasedo a huge thank you to Aaron for
joining me today. I really reallyappreciate your time. Thank you very much.
Just to add, we also havea trailer on YouTube if you want
to check that one out. I'llput that in the show notes as well.

(20:34):
Fantastic worth sped. Thank you somuch. Thank you so much,
Aaron, thank you. The finalperson that we're going to hear from is
Rob's father, Colin Knox. There'sa reason why I've left his interview until
last. When I was interviewing Colin, it was such an emotional and thought

(20:56):
provoking conversation, but just warning youwill cry. I'd like to introduce to
the show a very very special guest, Colin Knox, Rob's father. Thank
you so much for joining me today. Colin, could you please introduce yourself

(21:18):
and just tell us a little bitabout you. Hi? Yeah, thanks,
as introduced, my name is ColinKnox. I'm the father of Rob
Knox, the Harry Potter actor thatwas murdered in two thousand and eight.
Rob played Marcus belban Heartblood Prince.I'm divorced, I live alone, I'm

(21:40):
retired and I've currently live in HawkinsIn near Folkston. Before we get into
the trial, which is what we'regoing to be focusing on in this episode.
Can you tell those listening about Roband what he was like. Well,
start with the worst part of hischaracter, isn't it. It's not

(22:03):
bad, but he's quite mischievous.He wasn't harmful. He was funny,
thoughtful. This is the type ofkid that he was. Okay, I
forget how old he was, buthe was in his early teens, I
think, and mid teens, andI think I was about to leave the

(22:23):
matrimonial home due to divorce, andjust before that I gave him you know,
parents collect these large jars or bottlesof coins. Yeah, yeah,
and it was fall off. Idon't really give it to the kids,
so I said to Rob, beingthe oldest one, I said, Rob,
take this and spend it how youlike, on a pair of trainers
or a shirt or something. WhileI found out what he did do.

(22:47):
He took the money down to Bartley'sBank, put it into an account for
Save the Children in Africa. Everypenny. He didn't spend a penny on
himself. And that's that's type ofa guy that he was. He was
a great brother. Jamie. Hisbrother Jamie also an actor, and they'd

(23:08):
done everything together, park or filmingtaikwondo, and he was a fabulous son,
very proud of him. You saidthat he was mischievous. How do
you mean, I'm intrigued. Firstthing that springs to mind, there was

(23:30):
a party, I think it wassixteen seventeen year old party. The house
was full of about thirty young membersof that there was about thirty of them
anyway, and we had quite alarge house, had a five bedroom out
so we had plenty of room.So my dem wife and I sat in

(23:51):
my computer room while the noise waskicking off, you know, playfully,
and then i'd reason the sort ofcalm them down a bit. So I
went into the kitchen and stroked dinerand I sort of laid down the law
and I come and keep the eyesdown, you know, dad, he
shouldn't be drinking. Theather walked out, and as I walked out, I

(24:11):
heard sy I said, who wasthat? I started saying, don't be
disrespectful, up blowing all his friends. Don't be disrespectful, so to me
my wife as she was then youhear his guests, behave yourself, and
I really sort of laid into himas an adult to younger people, and

(24:33):
I was just land the law downbasically, and it transpires it's Robert he
come. He comes to me abouthalf an hour an hour later and apologized
and said, I'm sorry, Daddy, it was me. I blamed his
friends for it. Yeah, sothat that is something that he's done.

(24:53):
A cheeky chappie then for sure.Yeah, he's like me. You like
to sort of entertain people. Yeah, you know, you didn't really cross
the line. But it's score andat D and B stay at the group.
He was the same even on thefilm setting Harry Potter, he said,
but he was cheeky, but hewas likable. No, bless him.

(25:18):
I know that this is not goingto be an easy conversation for us
to have because we are going todelve into the trial of the defendant in
this case. What was your firstthought when you heard that the defendant,

(25:44):
having been through everything that you'd beenthrough up until that point, when you
found out that the defendant was goingto plead not guilty, what were your
thoughts? Can I just pause thereafter a second and just go back to
the previous question, of course aboutRob Yeah, soon after his death.
Weeks after his death, he wascontacted by Constabulary the Princess Yeah, with

(26:08):
a letter suggesting, not suggesting,saying that Rob Knox will be posthumously awarded
a bravery award. Of what thehell is this? And it transpires now
remember that we list for your listeners. Rob was killed and made the twenty
fourth, Yes, two thousand andeight. That date is relative because I

(26:32):
made the twenty fourth two thousand andseven. A man I think entered into
Marston Spencers where Rob was working.He had this man attacked a woman and
she had bla come from her head. So Rob and a security guard chased
him out of M and S blueWater, across the car park into some
in some woods and held him thereuntil the police turned up and arrested him.

(26:56):
And when when I when I readthat letter that come from King Constabulary,
I cried because Rob should have beenthere to receive that that award,
which turned out to be a posthumousaward. M Yeah, So that that
had to be said, because it'sall about Rob's character who he was.

(27:17):
Oh, it's incredible, I mean, that's that's such a selfless thing to
do, and lots of people,I think, in that circumstance might sort
of gather but not really take anysort of action themselves. So I think
that's incredible. Yeah, I mean, to be honest, he didn't make

(27:40):
much of it. On recall,well, I think he he didn't mention
it at the time, but itwas meaningless to I mean, it was
today robbing, blah blah blah,move on. He didn't make a big
thing out of it. So um, but I was a very proud parent
when I picked He's award up,to be honest, So you picked it

(28:00):
up for him, my ex lifeand myself. Yeah, we went there
an awards surmunning and yeah he shouldhave received that. It was his actions
to put a wrong correct or rightwrong. Um, which is how so

(28:23):
on the night that he that hedied, it was that same um bravery
if you want to word it thatway. That meant he was looking out
for his his brother, his friends. Um, he's like that. He
was bullied at school in his firstand second senior year. Um, he

(28:48):
was bullied. The last time Iremember him being bullied. He's on the
phone to me again. There's peoplepeople, students throwing um cans of coke.
I'm fully loaded, and I said, I get yourself home. So
he's been through that before. Sohe doesn't like injustice, he likes fair

(29:11):
play, and he doesn't like bullies. So that's the type of person that
he was. So those experiences shapedhim. Yeah, he was at the
fact it's starting junior school. Iremember walking to the shop. We scaled
like sat him and when we walkedto the shop to get a newspaper,

(29:33):
and on the way back, hesaid, Dad, there's a boy that
keeps them punching me in school.So if you told the teachers suggest what's
happened? He said nothing, AndI've done something that some parents probably would
do and some probably wouldn't do it. I said, the next time he
tries to do that, or doesit see that, I showed him my

(29:56):
fist and I should clench your fistlike this if he does. Was it
again? Punched him on the nose. Next week he went for a walk.
He didn't say anything in the meantime. Next I said, whether I
heard it go in school? Isaid, I punched him. What happened?
He said, he fell on thefloor, okay, and then he
said he wanted to be my friend. Now, I don't like violence,

(30:21):
I don't like no, but justto hit people. But if someone's hitting
my children, it's not being protectedby the school. He had to do
something to stop it. And Idon't encourage fights, but he wasn't invoking
the fight. He was preventing himselfand getting bullied. Yeah, it's yeah,
and I'm glad that he I don'tknow, he was able to stand

(30:47):
up for himself. Take those experiences, turn it into something positive where he
was looking out for those who neededhim. M yeah. Yeah because from
his from his photos he seems um, quite tall, quite sort of you
know, stocky, and so Iimagine one he was quite tall, quite

(31:08):
um done, he done taekwondo.I know, I know you got stabbed
to death, but I mean,you know, taekwondo doesn't help when the
guy's got two knives and stuff.But um yeah, So your question was
about um yeah, when court,wasn't it about? But when you heard

(31:29):
he was going to plead not guilty, right, Um, I was shocked,
but not surprised. Um. I'lltell you for why this is towards
before the court case, but soonafter he was arrested when they put him
in the van after being arrested afteryou carrying two knives with blood on them

(31:49):
and in new setand why do youarrest me? He sat on the back
of the van and asked how aboxing match went that was on TV that
night because he was missing it.He just been told that you just killed
someone. And I think one ofhis first replies was head of the boxing
next guy, He had no hehad no concern about other people's life,

(32:10):
more about a boxing fight that wason TV that you're going to miss and
that that speaks, doesn't it.Yeah, so I suppose it wasn't surprised
to hear that he said he's notguilty because he doesn't want to say I'm
guilty. He thinks he might havea chance by saying I'm not guilty.

(32:34):
But the evidence was stacked up somuch it was a super cool But yeah,
shocked, but not surprised. Andwhat was it like? I mean
I can't even imagine, But whatwas it like for you and your family
and for Rob's friends to be inthat court for that trial, if you

(32:58):
can sum it up? Yeah,very emotional on a daily basis, right,
I mean not only the court,but there was a massive press stroke,
media presence. Um. So sometimeswe have to go in the back
door. Sometimes the front door.Unfortunately, a lovely of family liaison officer

(33:22):
that stood by me for a coupleof years. I think I will come
to white white. It was twoyears because he was I think in court
after about a year of killing someone, mum, and not only that um,
sitting next to, sitting close to, not next to, sitting close

(33:45):
to the murderer to my left,twelve to sixteen feet away in court because
normally people sit in the gallery towatch proceedings, but we were allowed some
sort of dispensation. We were allowedto sit on the base level of the

(34:07):
courtroom, sitting next to all thecourt officials and close to the murderer.
And being that close it was Iwanted to look, didn't look. I
may have looked once, I justdidn't want to look at him. That's

(34:29):
the man only a few yards away. That perpsally went home on the night
that Rock was killed after an altercation. To be fair, there was a
bit of a punch up, toput it that way, He started a
rug somewhere, so he went homeand there he had a probably at least

(34:50):
a ten minute walk home, fiveminutes searched for two nights, and ten
minutes walked back so let's make itaround in half an hour to think about
what he he was going to do. And he came back with two knights
because he said the week before hesaid the week before the incident, a

(35:12):
guy heard him at a bus stop, independent of anything that went on,
heard him say I will come backnext week and someone's going to die.
And he lived up to his word. He came back with with two knights
and um used them wantingly. Imean he injured four other people. UM,

(35:34):
knife went through Nick sand straight throughsomeone was I think he's anyway there
there were there's four other people thatare severely injured, and and and Rob
received five stab wounds to his bodyand one of them pezzed his altar.
And the chances are that he's probablydied at the end of the minute or

(35:57):
two of being stabbed. Um.But we got to go through the proceedings
at the hospital and wait for themelitical answer to sort of claim that he
was born so clarify that he hadpassed and he was he was he was,
he was dead. So sitting closeto that person, that animal,

(36:24):
there's no care about life, otherpeople's life. He didn't even think about
the consequences. He had half anhour to think about. That consequence is
a very serious thing because once thathappens, I mean a knife carrier.
Okay, what's the difference from yourknife carrier and the murderer. Difference is

(36:47):
a split second, that's all.It is true. Once people start fighting,
they at the anti every time hestarts with a suggestion the world,
a swear word, a punch,and get some bricks and then so,
okay, I've got a knife,so it steps itself up. If you
get into that arena, it stepsup, and you haven't got control over

(37:09):
your actions or your thought processes.If you're carrying a knife, you're going
to use it. And not onlythat, if you do use a knife
and it drops, it could beused against you. And funnily enough,
at Elmley Prison in Kent, whichI've been to a couple of times,

(37:29):
but on one occasion, I tooka film that I made called Cold Kiss
is a fifteen minute short shortly film. Ray Winslon was in it, my
son Jamie was in it, JoeAcas was in it, and we took
it there to show it to someguys that we're on the cusp of leaving

(37:52):
prisons and within a year, andit's probably a part of an exit program.
So it was there to sort ofpromote discussion about the film, to
get them talking. And when wewas there, there was a guy that
wanted to speak to me, amurderer. My ex wife wasn't there,

(38:15):
but I was there. He askedif you could have a one to one
and I said yeah, sure,so I sat upsite him and one of
the I think the first thing hesaid to me was how am I perceived
out there, which is in thewider world. I said, well,
no one gives a damn about you. You you murdered someone, You've got

(38:37):
twenty years for it. No one'snot concerned. You're you're probably your mum
and dad might be, and closefamily might be, but no one gives
a damn about you. And Isaid, well, what happened to you?
You tell me what happened. Inthe case, he was attacked.
He was an innocent person being attacked. Someone attacked him with a knife and

(39:02):
that person that was carrying the knifedropped it. No, so this guy
that was accused was in prison formurder. He picked it up and used
it against the guy that was attackinghim. But what happened was, according
to law, if you if youpick up something a piece or ward,

(39:22):
or a brick or a knife,if you know full well that will be
cause severe injury or death. Thatstill classes premeditation. It's not about well,
I'm going next week, I'm gonnago up to Charlie's house and I'm
going to wait in the bushes andI'm going to attack him. He picked
this up in self defense. Unfortunately, what he'd done, he used it

(39:45):
excessively, so multiple stab wounds.Probably if you've done it once and saved
himself, he may have got allobey with it, but he didn't.
And this guy was a religious,educated guy. He was unfortunate to be
picked up by someone for an attack. He used the attack as a weapon,
and he used it calling to lawto access, which they say is

(40:10):
murder. But in that moment,you're not going to think, oh,
I'm doing too much. You know, he probably was acting, like you
said, in what was a splitsecond moment of panic. We don't think
clearly when in that it's circumstance.So you're right, it can I can't

(40:34):
believe that it's such an extraordinary story, but you're right, as soon as
a knife drops, you might nothave intended to ever use a knife.
If it drops, you've picked itup. What I mean, it can
so easily go either way. Theway to try and stop it is that
nobody brings any kind of knife toany kind of scenario. But talking about

(41:00):
the defendant in this case, likeyou said, he had half an hour,
half an hour to make a differentchoice. He could have gone home
and maybe he was fired up.Okay, but go home. Maybe he's
gone home and in that walk homehe's calmed down and he just walks away.

(41:23):
Well, the thing is about thedefendant, mister defendant, is that
I think he had served some sortof time for night carrying before. After
that it transpires that I think hepulled alive on someone on a bus.
So there's an open case with thepolice for them to pursue this guy,

(41:45):
unfortunately designing a couple of weeks beforeRobert was killed. Unfortunately that they didn't
follow up on the case. Andthe fire was probably putting the wrong basket
put on one side, and itgave mister defendant a license aroma round until
the faithful that he used weapons onRob and his friends and none of them

(42:07):
are armed or the people the childget the knife of the defendant, but
that they won't carry knights or gunsor anything. They may have picks up
a bottle in self defense, Ithink Nick said in his statement, but
he put it down after you thoughtit was abating. It didn't abate,
it got worse. Um. Yeah, so knife knife carrying isn't a wise

(42:35):
thing to do. I said tothose people. That was what I call
the exit program in Emly prison.And I took the film. Now,
I said to them, I askedthem to ask answer twenty questions. Do
you like holidays? Do you likeyour family? Do you like sex or
the drink in going out to yourfriend? And Eddie Box was ticked yes,

(42:58):
yes, yes, yes yes.I said, well, please remember
those things that you want. There'stwenty things in favor and won agains,
and whatever you've done to bring intoprison has taken you away from those twenty
things dear to you. So whenyou exit the prison, remember twenty one.
Think of those twenty beautiful things thatyou could have but you don't have

(43:21):
at the moment. And if it'sbecause you've stolen something, pump someone fraud,
whatever you think about the consequences.There's there's no winners with knife caring.
That's such a good point, that'ssuch a good way of thinking about
it, because also looking at thewider group of people affected in Rob's case

(43:45):
alone, Rob's is one case ofunfortunately so many involved in knife crime.
And yet you think how many peoplehis case has affected. You've got the
defendant as well and all the peopleit's affected, sort of on his side

(44:06):
of things. But there's not justit's not so simple as to say there's
one perpetrator and one victim. No, No, there's thousands of victims.
Because it ripples out. It becomesyour mum and you're dead, and then
your browns and sisters, aunt's,uncle's, friends, work, colleagues.
It ripples out. I mean,little lonely the police on the front line.

(44:30):
You've got to protect the police aswell. I mean, you've got
you've got an opposed knife caring andand the sentence is woeful. I remember
I remember speaking to Gordon Brown itnumber ten and it's just before the election
that the Labor Party lost, andhe told me that in the curriculum,

(44:54):
if Labor Party got in, therewill be half an hour a week.
What they call citizenship, Yeah,how to behave itself, to be a
you know, a good citizen.And they lost the election. And then
when the Conservatives got in, theysaid, I went to speak to the
educational minister and run that past him, and he went got interested. It

(45:20):
wasn't going to put it on thecurriculum, and saw the labor parties it
was good. I'm not being politicalby the body. These the facts that
I happened talking about someone sees itthis way, someone sees it that way.
And I spoke to the educational ministerand he wasn't he wasn't up for
it. So the Conservatis now putin and you read the manifesto and it

(45:45):
said it was a massive long,a couple of a four sheets of paper
about the statement about fighting crime andk life crime and what happened. There
was one word there that changed theemphasis completely. Anyone got anyone that that

(46:06):
gets caught carrying a knife, thisis the this is the crux word.
May not will may face custodial sentences? Now may it? That's that's his
get out close because if he doesn'thappen. So we did say may not,
will I want I want a willnot a may it's it's it's an

(46:27):
assertain that I do believe in proactivitynot reactivity. Trees Amaye stands when she
was in power, she stood bywe. We we will do her best
to bring those to court that thatkilled someone. So no, no,
no, we shouldn't be doing that. We should be we shouldn't be chasing
murderers around. We should be preventingmurders. So that that threes Amazed comment

(46:53):
doesn't make sense to me. Youknow, we do her best. You
two of the brief families the police. So we're now going to find out
who've done that? Well, whydidn't you have stronger measures in place to
prevent knife carrying? Knife aren't theproblem. It's the knife carrier. Yeah,
nice, aren't the problem. Weall got them in our drawers and

(47:14):
our home, in their kitchens.It's only a problem when it gets in
someone's hands, and it's the carrierwhich is the problem. We have to
punish the carrier, not the knife, because if the knife stays in the
drawer, it's no harm to anyone. So true, So true. And
I suppose for you, with theknowing that the defendant had previous when it

(47:40):
came to knife crimes. That musthave been I don't even know what the
right word is, but that musthave been so hard to know that he
had previous We went to um UM, the Police Commission in London. We

(48:07):
had three, I think three meetingswith him. It looks a bit,
it looks a bit shaky and abit scared because about a high profile because
of Rob's the mind and being attachedHarry Potter Um and he was looking at
what had happened two weeks prior toRob's death, because the defendant was say

(48:35):
on the wanted list. It wasneeded for questioning about a previous ducation.
And he halted. About the thirdmeet he assured us that the system had
changed. He was saying that thatshouldn't happen again. I think one of
the two of the policemen involved.One of them left straight away and I

(49:00):
retired or something, and I senta message back through the commissioner that the
family do not blame the officers,they blame the system. Yeah, if
the officers are acting within a systemand the system doesn't work correctly, then

(49:21):
things like that will happen. Soyeah, so we had three meetings women
and the assurance that I think crested. The dick was around the time,
but she wasn't top notch at thetime. She was a senior officer but
not a Science of Commissioner at thetime. Yeah, so that was amazing

(49:43):
at Scotland Yard. That happened onthree occasions. We was trying to get
change as much as we could.We've been everywhere. It's both Prince Charles,
Princess and Prime Minister, Educational Ministers, Home Secretary and that was a
joke. We sat around this okay, we went to the Home. I

(50:06):
spoke to the Home and we sataround this elongated table and it's about other
sixteen of us around the table forarguments sixteen and it's a case of getting
introduced the department heads right, myname is. That went off for eons,
okay, and then I think theHome Secretary was called in the chambers

(50:30):
was for a vote, so hedisappeared and there was about five or two
minutes left and it was it wasdecided that another meeting should be should be
Kayton before no no serious star logwent on. It was an absolute sham.
I think it's an hour meeting.Nothing had happened a bit of a

(50:52):
waste of time. Then by thesounds of things, absolutely, I mean,
I do think it's credible, andwe will go onto this. But
some of the things that you've beenable to achieve in Rob's honor, I
think it's actually I think it's amazing. Because I've spoken to Joe and I've

(51:13):
spoken to Aaron about the foundation,and shortly, I want to hear about
it from from your point of view. We've talked about this. You've touched
upon it briefly when you said thatwhen the defendant was arrested, he was
asking about this boxing match, andand that to me speaks volumes. How

(51:34):
did he come across to you incourt? Had his behavior changed? Was
there any any sort of noticeable remorseanything like that at all? Remorse is
summing. I've never seen him preach, ever. He was very arrogant,
cocky, showed no whatsoever. Andhe's the sitting court sometimes with his arms

(52:02):
across the back of his chair,looking up at the gallery and waving to
his friends like it was some sortof film show or something. It was.
He was a cocky, arrogant,remorseless person. But there's only one
thing, one person that mad himand no one else. He just had

(52:25):
this, I don't care attitude,and there is there is something that I
was going to I was going torefer to something that later on, but
I bring it up now because it'sabout his character. Mum. There's a

(52:45):
thing called a impact statement. Yes, okay, now, I think I
think at the time there were changesgoing through where the parents could read it
out. I can't remember. Ithink we did. I think it was
left either to the judge or theprosecuity to read out the impact statement.

(53:07):
Now, I for your listeners,and impact statement is how this can only
be bread out after the defendant's beenfound guilty. He's innously. That doesn't
get read out to some new point. It only gets read out in court
after he's been found guilty. Soit's either judge or the prosecution Barris stuff

(53:30):
that read out our personal handwritten statementsin impact statements. Now, because we
were divorced, we was allowed tosubmit to because we weren't the collective because
we were divorced, so we bothhad our own our family insups. Although
we are we weren't we still arehis parents now. An impact statement he's

(53:53):
read out is what it says,and it's in It's how it impacted on
our lives, the the loss orrob being murdered, how it impacted.
So we go through all the Youknow, I can't hold anymore. I
can't because him anymore. I can'tgo to his wedding under earlier, he
can't go to my funeral. Anythingthat emotionally disturbs and which was our loss.

(54:15):
So that that is read out incourt, I nearly said the man's
namen. The defendant stayed in thecell while it was read out. Now
that meant and I think it shouldbe I don't know if it's changed or
not. It should be law thatthat if anyone's found guilty of murder is

(54:37):
brought back into the court room whilethe impact statement is read out. But
he chose to sit in himself.And I think two things should happen,
And I think it may have thechange. It may have happened as regards
the impact statement being read out bythe parents. I think that may have
changed. But I don't know whetheror not the person that's been found guilty

(55:00):
of a murder or whenever, wheneveran impact statement needs to be read out,
whether that person's allowed to stay inthe cell downstairs wherever it is,
or be in the courtroom. Ithink if the address hasn't been made yet,
I think the the people reading outthe impact statement you should be allowed

(55:22):
to say it because their words,they are thoughts about their loss and not
through a third party. And secondly, any person found good that has to
it should be the recipient of animpact statement should be in the courtroom listening
to those emotional words read out bythe the people that you written the impact

(55:44):
statement. I don't even know howyou would begin to try and put your
your feelings into a statement a document, because how do you convey everything you're
feeling. And then, as yousay, to know that he chose to
stay in the cell and to notalmost not face the reality that you and

(56:10):
your family and Rob's friends have tolive every day. Well, it shows
that the remorse wasn't It shows thatthey were He wasn't concerned about anyone else.
He's only concern was himself. He'sprobably thinking, so, well,
I've been found good. I'm notgoing to listen to blah blah blah.

(56:31):
I mean, you know, ifthey're going to punish him by giving him
twenty years, a part of thatpunishment should be for him to stand or
sit in that court stand out ofrespect and staying in that court, he
should be asked to stand up,not look at us. It doesn't have
to and listen to those emotional words, because everything that we've enjoyed about Rob

(56:59):
has gone. Any person that losesone of anyone in their family, all
those those contact words, those thosesmells were the fun that you've had or
the future things that you look forwardto are not going to happen. Yeah.
And I remember when soon after Robwas born, when we took him

(57:22):
out of the hospital and brought himhome for the first time. I cradled
them in my arms, took himout to the back garden and I said,
Rob, welcome to the family.Your mother and I love you,
and we will always look after youand love you. And I would remember
saying that to him. And whenhe was killed, I thought immediately,

(57:46):
I thought I've let him down.I thought he was he was he was
getting on for eighteen and he wasa man in his own world. And
I can't walk around changing his diaperutin in a park, you know,
it doesn't work. And he hasto live his own life and walk his
book, his own trail. Andand then I thought about it. You'd

(58:07):
been slightly harder on hisself calling hewas he was a a young rom up.
He was he was of an agefor drinking and driving and voting.
So although I promised him I willprotect him, we did. We brought
two points up correctly, and theywere lovely boys and they I mean,

(58:31):
Jamie's lost a friend because my mumsaid to me when she found out when
we our first child, I thinkshe may have known it's going to be
your boy. And she said,not only should you your son be your
son, but let him be ormake sure that he's your best friend too.
And that was strange coming from mom, because my family went tactile.

(58:54):
I never heard my mum or dadever say to me I love you,
or even get a hug. Idon't remember that, but they were wise
words, and I think I wouldhave done that anyway, because that's natural
for me. I'm techtile And everytime that I spoke to Rob and Jamie
when I left them, always toldhim I loved them. Yeah, even

(59:15):
at the age of seven. Iaged seventeen, Robbie had and Mickey Mouse
that we bought when he was kneeei to a grasshopper, and he went
to bed with that every night,and I think he still went to bed
with it that I used to.He want seventeen and a bit And I
said to my ex wife, SirRob's mom, I said, Mickey mouse

(59:40):
to be washed and putting the coffeewith Robert. He's got to be buried
with his friend. And the strangethings we knew. I'm rambling on that
we knew. I don't know howit came about. But when Rob used
to chill his mates, you know, don't Christma creame down up real beer.

(01:00:02):
They would sit around and chat andsome friends approached us to say Rob
doesn't want a black horse. Hedoesn't want people to wear dark clothing.
He wants people to be happy athis funeral. So we've got a white
horse and everyone wore bright clothing,no black. And it's strange how that

(01:00:25):
came about. That is weird.Yeah, it's weird. And thumbs up
to chrispy Creme Donuts. After wehad two ceremonies to Robert that could sit
up Rugby Football Club, they sentup five hundred Chrispy Creme Donuts. Wow,

(01:00:47):
I mean, oh gosh, getnot tearful. It's that's so weird
that that conversation came up. Yeah, why young people. I don't know
what age they were, but obviouslyit's pre seventeen years of age. And
I think in our office when Iused to work about two years before that,

(01:01:09):
people were saying in the office,what would you do if this is
what you do when when the poolstype of question, what you do if
it never comes into reality? Butwhat would you do if your son was
killed or from family? Remember ofyour family was killed? Oh? Do

(01:01:30):
you know what I'll do? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you
talked tough. Yeah. But assoon as we were told that Rob had
passed or murdered, you have aside of the coin appeared. It was
we were wanted to fight knife crime. We didn't want to spend our waste

(01:01:50):
our time accusing the murderer. That'sbeen done, it's been taken to court,
it's been found guilty. So wewanted to act in the positive.
Yeah. With the foundation. Um, so we've got true strings to ABOU
being a registered charity, one instituteto fight kind of knife knife and gun

(01:02:14):
crime and anti social behavior and inthe arena of the arts. This is
a good caveat if I can rememberit. When I'll come back to that.
So with the fighting the knife crimeside, we hooked up with Child
and Athletic, but the Community Trustit was a part of the club,

(01:02:37):
but it's a separate entity within theclub, the Child Community Trust, and
they'd fantastic work out there, andwe was on the steering commit to what
it still laugh for. He issadly takes a stronger presence now because I
now work on the art side becausewhen I used to work, I found
it hard after years why to goto play and speak to dignitaries and gold

(01:03:01):
as well else. So my namewas on the on the tip of people
that the lips of people that wantedsomeone to come and speak to their schools
or colleges and stuff. So Isort of ventured into the art side.
But we had the We had that. We also had the Rob Nuts Film

(01:03:24):
Festival, which we run every year. It's been going every year since two
thousand and nine. It was previouslycalled the Bexley Heath Film Festival and were
contacted by Mike Waring who suggested,can we put Rob's name to be actually
certainly, and it's been going fromstrength to strength every year apart from this

(01:03:45):
year. Happens in the first Wednesdayand every June um but well supported by
lots of people that we've had winnersfrom Brazil, America and other places.
Yeah, one actually brought his family. I had to receive the rob Knocks
the Best Director award and was it. And he brought two kids. They

(01:04:08):
weren't kids, they were like lateteens, early twenties, and he brought
his wife and his family. However, so I said, I was sort
of blind away about it. Isaid, how did you to this guy
from America? I said, howdid you get Why would you want to
get connected? Why would you whydid you get connected to the Roblox Film
Festival. He said, but welike Harry Potter, we like what we

(01:04:30):
saw and I just wanted to enterthis into your festival. And I was
like blown away, Like wow,it was anyway, So and after that,
a few years ago we received alarge grant from the Commissioner Kent Police,
granting this money to start up afilm academy where we invite young people

(01:04:59):
from the age of all seemed towhen you, I think it was that
wanted to get involved in filmmaking.So there was a constantly went through headed
up by Mike Wearing, my filmdirector of sort of the director of the
film festival, and they would sorteverything from how to write script, you

(01:05:21):
encompass lighting, sound, camera,work, script, right seeing you name
it, funding, find it.We show people what it takes to make
a film and they would take parton every part and the end result was
that to make a short film aboutknife crime, which which they made and

(01:05:44):
they yeah, they the managed toequipment themselves that was shown how to use
it and they there's some short clipsin the documentary I think as well or
some of the action I think towardsthe back end of documentary of those young
people, you know, getting quiteexcited about getting involved in filmmaking. So

(01:06:09):
we had that and also only forabout two or three years because it was
quite costly. We had what wecalled a bursary. We funded a student
at the D and B Performing Artsin Bromley, that's where Robin Jamie went
to students and what we what we'vedone as a foundation, as a charity,

(01:06:34):
we would fund someone that had theability to go on to strive to
better things. Potentially the show theycan move on, but they might have
been hampered or impeded by funds.It's something they could have shot in couldn't
get there because they couldn't support themselvesfor three years. So what the foundation

(01:06:56):
done is they set up this bursaryfor a student to win that and it
lasted three years. So we usedto sit through auditions watching the students perform,
choosing those that could potentially go onthe great things. And I'll show
you there's a name I would dropat the back end of this comment that

(01:07:19):
proves that it worked in that instant. They could go on and didn't have
sufficient funds to support them three years. So the first person that won it
female, a black female, forgether name now, she done quite well.
The second and the last one,because it's quite an expensive thing to
do, went through the system,was chosen and he went at some sort

(01:07:46):
of notari in fame on TV andyou remember X Factor, Yeah, remember
guy called Matt Terry. Yeah,all right, he was awarded the Rob
Knocks Foundation bursary three years arts inbrumbling. So it's it's it makes me
chill to think that on the positiveside, because nine percent of people are

(01:08:13):
good, while are we ignoring them? That's why we'll we had the art
side and then the one percent ofthe people go around doing stupid stuff.
We've got addressed both. Yeah,you shouldn't. You shouldn't give a hundred
percent just to night crime, becauseyou're forgetting about the good people, keep
them good, and you may encouragepeople that aren't good to come on the
good side. So we set thatbursary up and Mattori was something that made

(01:08:36):
us proud of what we invested oursupport into. I think it stopped after
that because it's quite expensive. Yeah, I can imagine. I love I
love that. There's there's that dualaspect though, as you say, because
I was saying to Aaron and Isaid to Joe as well, I find

(01:08:59):
it so commendable that in your grief, because it would have been very easy.
I would imagine for you to justnot want to get out of bed
in the morning, given everything thatyou'd been through, that you, you
know, the simple things in lifewould have been you just weren't interested in
them anymore, you know, eating, sleeping, You just couldn't, couldn't

(01:09:20):
do it. And yet to takesomething so tragic and so heartbreaking. I
was saying that I commend you forturning it into something positive. The fact
that you go into prisons and talkto people who have done some some not

(01:09:41):
good things in society, putting itmildly, and speak to them and try
and appeal to their you know,to their better natures, and say,
look, you've done a bad thing. That doesn't mean that you have to
stay being sort of quote unquote abad person. I think that's incredible,
and I think it takes a ofcourage as well. Um. I think

(01:10:04):
it was driven by I always saidthat Rob was a better personal like than
I I am. He was becausehe's not here anymore, but at the
time he was a better personal likeit. But was it? Was it?
I say that because he's got avery positive attitude now I have,

(01:10:25):
but I tend to sort of runwith ideas sometimes and stop three quarters a
way through. Rob doesn't. Ifthere's a fence, he would jump it.
He won't just stop, he wouldjump it. So I adopted Rob's
attitude just to put that extra twentyfive percent in that I was missing.
Yea, and in his name,I mean this legacy that that he was,

(01:10:46):
you know, he left, whichwas his legacy to us to make
sure that don't make sure it's anactual thing. I don't know. It's
just something that, like I saidabout this discussion in the office, what
would you do if that's you canmake a judgment very easily because you're not
involved emotionally, he's no loss.It's yeah, I would do this,

(01:11:06):
I'll do that, But it's whenit actually happens is when the true youth
kicks in. And I'm not naturallyaggressive. So I wanted to make good
out of bad, and I didn'twant Rob's life to be meaningless. If

(01:11:28):
if it meant anything, if hecould have gone on to appear in more,
more more films with Harry Potter andmove on to greater things, that
is no longer there for him andit's no longer there for us to share
with him. So using his notorietyHarry Potter, it elevated us to a

(01:11:48):
platform where most parents that lose thechild do not have that platform to speak.
They market while don't see lines onthe local newspaper. But because of
Harry Potter's influence, the media areinteresting. So I thought we can go
into a bedroom and shut the doorand pull the curtains, which I did
quite a lot, or you canactually try and utilize the power that's been

(01:12:18):
given to us to speak to anaudience by the media. The audience is
anyone that wants to listen. Andpeople say, handy lives, you think
you're saved. I mean, it'sunquantifiable. We don't know. Probably none,
might be a hundred. I don'tknow. It's unquantifiable. At least

(01:12:38):
you're trying to reach out. Andwe know for a fact that feedback we
get from schools that there have beenstudents that have actual said, you know
what, I'm not a knife carand I don't know one, but I've
got a sister and I'm going tolook at her differently now that it changes
them in another way, not inthe purpose that you set out to you

(01:12:58):
is to stop knife carrying and murders. People are reflecting on the loss of
a life and what it means.And now they were the three back was
again and you know you've you've helpedme in another way, not in the
way that you set out to do, which is which is quite nice because
if you can get play two siblingsthat don't get on terribly badly, right,

(01:13:19):
Yeah, and now that now it'slike coming it's whatever it is.
We were told in a positive way, that there's some feedback that came back,
and it's in more than one instance, so it's it's although we set
out to redress knife crime, wewere touching people's hearts because of the story

(01:13:40):
that will be sold. And Ialways told students when I went to schools
and addressing anyone, that if yousee a tear come from my eye,
ignore it. It's only out oflove for my son and my loss that
happens. But I said it onlyhappened for a minute or less. I
only say that because I don't wantthese young students getting up We're seeing me
getting upset, so I would sortof lay out the foundation of what my

(01:14:03):
emotions could be. Don't worry,it will come and it will pass.
So um yeah, So with thefoundation, so we fight knife crime.
We've got the film festival and theAcademy, which is not happening because yeah,
it's not happening. Um yeah,um so a lot. You've done

(01:14:30):
so much. I've tried to alsomake change. I think the Sun newspaper
tried to get hold of me inthe early days for them to me to
be an MP, that they wouldthey would sponsor me as an MP,
put me up in a bit sponsorme to fight knife crime man. I

(01:14:51):
thought, I don't want to besomeone's puppet. I need to say my
words, my way. I don'twant to be driven by the media.
I know what they're after, thestory, the inside story, all that
sort of stuff. And I thought, no, we need to do it
our way, the way we thinkit should be done. If the media
or interest to bill speak to them, but I didn't want to go down

(01:15:16):
that road, to be honest,No, And I think, as you
say, you've got important things,but part of that is that it's coming
from you in your own words,as you say, and you're not being
sort of guided quote unquote you knowfor any sort of political or yeah,

(01:15:39):
you know, don't get involved inthat sort of realm. I think the
reason why I say the reason whyI said that is because I because what
brought that to mine was they wassaying that. I was saying, Oh,
I think they were saying, let'stry and get a two year custodian
sentence, and they say it won'twork. People saying it won't work,
it won't work. I spoke tothe Child Community Trust chairman. We had

(01:16:03):
a chat and he said, youprobably won't get that. So what I've
been pursuing is a mandatory custodial sentenceif you're caught carrying a knife. I'm
sort of sat slowly, but Iwant to be understood what I'm saying,

(01:16:23):
because if it's actually fast, itgoes over your head. So it's a
managery custodial sentence if you're carrying aknife. Um, when I when I
say custodia, I don't mean putthem in a prison. There's some old
r F places not being new somewhere. You know you can. You can
put them in a custodial place andgive them an exit program as well.

(01:16:47):
What you need to do is wrenchthem away from the game warfare. Yeah
okay, so get that out oftheir mentality and hopefully you know, some
are in a game because they thinkthey have to be geographically or socially,
they are in a gang. Ifthey get pulled away for three months,
then you don't know what might happenwhen they go back. They might not

(01:17:12):
They may choose not to go backto the gang. They have been shown
another way in life. So thereason for a three month custodial sentence is
to get them away from what they'redoing, prevent them from doing something they
could do, may do, Idon't know, but they could do their
carrying knife, why carrying a knife? And and also by taking them,

(01:17:36):
extracting them, taking them off thestreet would be turned around hopefully after a
three month period with the exit program. You don't know if you can,
if you can half the knife carriage, you might have the problem. Which
is a positive mood. And Ithink since Rob died, I think this

(01:17:59):
is shocking. Over two thousand andfive hundred people have been murdered, not
just maimed of a knife. Nowthat number's gone up since I last looked.
I think now what the reason whyI'm shocked is because although it happens
on a daily basis, you havefed the ones and the twos, they
don't come to a sum. Yeahyeah, another one saw and we also,

(01:18:24):
oh there's another one. There's nomurder, there's another murder. But
if you forget the collective sum,and it's shocked me. Two thousand,
five hundred, when are we goingto learn about knives and knife carrying and
how and how we should prevent it, prevent knife carrying. If you take
away, if you make if youroutlaw knife carrying. There's better to be

(01:18:47):
some reductions onwhere in knife crime.You can't stop them all because some social
things where it's a domestic flour upor something, those things probably would happen
because the drawers in the kitchen thekitchen drawer, so the nice in the
kitchen drawl. So to to havea proactive which I referred to earlier on

(01:19:11):
a proactive attitude towards knife carrying.Um, I can't see why it's not
been adopted, to be honest,because the knife carrier. I don't forget
I said before, knives aren't theproblems. The carrier, the knife carrier

(01:19:33):
be the person put in custode withsentence, not the knife. The knife
it's throwing away, it gets putback in the drawer. It's the person
that takes them. And we haveto do is to is to recycle their
brain and and and say this iswhy it's wrong, this is what could
happen to you. There are eitherpaths to take and they probably never thought

(01:19:55):
about that. They probably even thoughtabout consequence. Oh nice, yeah what
happened? If so, I've beenprisoned for twenty years, I wouldn't be
able to see my family. Sowhen I come out, I'll be thirty
forty years away. So some peopledon't even think about that. They might
just think about that stuff. Itis some I think. I read a

(01:20:19):
House of Commons report in two thousandand night or nine that was drawn up
and it was massive. But withinthat there's a question asked of young people,
is there a deterrent we're carrying aknife? And some of the responses

(01:20:42):
will know because we're more we weremore worried about getting stopped by the police
than a sentence that may follow itshould something happen, because there was no
deterrent. Coil carrying NiFe get stackedon the back a m and we go
out and play and playground and um. So that was that was actually the

(01:21:04):
people on the street that probably carryingknife up there saying that there's there's no
deterrent. And that was back intwo thousand and eight and nine. They
saw that as a thing. Yeah, and it shouldn't be a thing.
The thing should be if you can'tcarry a knife. Now the police can
differentiate supposing a man's got stopped ina car, and in his car and

(01:21:26):
he's got a box and there's aknife in it. Well, he's a
carpenter. The police would say,okay, we'll make sure it's not and
move them on his way. Theysaw a young person or a person with
a knife tucked down the back oftheir trousers or down their sock, and
there's there's a reason there to arrestthem. Why would you want to put
a knife down your sock or backof your trousers, and there's there's there's

(01:21:49):
reasonable grounds for arrest, take themto court and let the court decided that
was an illegal act. And ifit's an legal act, three months because
so you would say, since,thank you very much. It's simple.
Yeah. I think Jack Straw waswhat was ther home secretary a sign to
labor Jack Straw he come out andsaid, what we will do will increase

(01:22:13):
The sense is this is like aftersomeone's been murdered. Now this is their
reaction. We will increase the sentencefrom twenty to twenty five years to murder.
And I thought, hang on aminute, this has costs labor nothing.
You're okay, you've raised the barnow to twenty five years, but
that doesn't that really won't kick infinancially until years down the line. He

(01:22:39):
doesn't Labor Party would not have tohave paid out then more money. What
they're saying is the person that's beenfound guilt of a murder under existing law
would be only spent twenty years inprison. Jack Straw would saying they spent
twenty five in prison. Twenty fiveyears in prison, so it only come
into effecting after twenty years time becausethere's twenty laid out anyway. Yeah,

(01:23:03):
and to get twenty five you've gotto go through twenty years first. So
what Jack Straw play out was fantastic. If he doesn't kick in for another
twenty years time. Some of themmay may may tomorrow be found guilty of
a murder and been given twenty fiveyears, but the cost doesn't kick in
until twenty years down the line.Yeah, So I thought I was a

(01:23:25):
bit of a backslide. I mean, asn't costed anything. Guys, we
have changed the law, but there'sno kicking of extra finances until twenty years
down the line. So I thoughtthat wasn't That was a reactive reaction,
not a proactive Yeah. And whatI'm talking about with custodial sentence is proactive

(01:23:48):
stopping and not chasing down murders,and that families down. Honestly, I've
got something that didn't really slot in. Well, he comes under any other
business time for any other business.Okay, your son's been killed. Worst

(01:24:10):
time in your life. All choiceand other things has popped up, knowing
that his body has to go throughpostmortem. Oh and I thought that your
body's son's been cut up. Iknow he's been stabbing, he's dead,
but I just i'd actually thumped walls. I was literally screaming my head of
thumping walls. And then I foundout that the defense had the same right,

(01:24:32):
so there was a second postmorten.I thumped the walls again. And
this is this is something. Itwas very hard. The very last time
I saw Rob was it in ahospital in Orpington, and it was after
the postmortems had taken place. AndI went there with Rob's mum, Rob's

(01:24:58):
sister, Jamie, my son andthe grandparents to saund goodbyes to Robert,
and we sat like in the anteroom and Sally ran him of her sister
first. That's Rob's moment, Julie. They came out and Julie a very
up, big person. She said, Colin, you've got to go in.
He looks lovely you've got to goin. I wasn't going to go

(01:25:19):
and because I remember when my daddied, and I wish I hadn't,
because I wanted to remembrance to bepictures that of him alive and not past.
And I wanted to do the Sammyrob I've got happy memories. I
wanted to keep us. I didn'twant my darker memory. But Julie said,
you could be going see him.So I went in there and he

(01:25:41):
looked okay, but speaking to ason that was dead, saying your last
words, and the weirdest thing wasbending down to say goodbye for the last
time. After you finished your words, was kissing him on and he was
cold. That was so hard tokiss your son for the first time,

(01:26:06):
when he's born, his pink faceand he's like a couple of minutes old.
You're full of joint and then seventeenyears later plus you haven't say good
bye him to a person that can'thear you in the hospital again. And

(01:26:27):
to feel I have always helped myson, but to feel the temperature of
his forehead stone cold, it waslike kissing the brick. And I found
I found that I found that hard, very hard. I didn't want to
go in anyway. But what anexplosion of emotion that was. And the

(01:26:54):
thing with Rob's murder is all casesto go to the crown called up at
the Old Bailey, and it tooknearly a year for that to come around.
It lasted for two weeks the trial. And people say, well,
once the person has been found,give to you get closure. We don't

(01:27:17):
really you get justice. And peoplesay was it strong enough to No?
I mean that if there was acapital punishment around, I would indulse it
for that type of person. ButI liked to accept which was law.
The only thing I can hand downofficially by law. So that had to
be what was He got twenty yearsAnd people say you've got closure. Well,

(01:27:45):
no, got justice. But atleast all the court case was out
of the way. And but astrange thing happened not so long after that.
A week or two, a manwas suspected a tabloid newspaper had been
approached by a man that was offeringto sell Rob's moultry strike post mortem photographs.

(01:28:15):
This is my son's body on theslab in color, which were which
was used as evidence in court.It WoT sorton for ten thousand pounds.
So they tracked this guy and eventuallyarrested him, and he made numerous court
appearances over the next year, whichI changed every time he was in court.

(01:28:36):
So although after one year people sayyou to get closure. Now,
I've got justice, but closure wasn'tnow, and it made it even worse
finding out this person that was foundguilty of what he'd done was lasting another
year. So I made sure thatevery time he was in court, and

(01:29:00):
sometimes you didn't show, so Iwent up there on the fall's round and
so I think that lasted. Butfortunately I've still had my family. Maison
officer supported me and she was lovely. Um, so that was another kicker.

(01:29:21):
Yeah, after you're losing your sonin horrific circumstances, you get people
feeding off, trying to financially feedoff Rob's demise, his death and his
family's emotions by trying to sell thosepictures. I don't know people have to

(01:29:42):
go to do that. I meanfor ten thousand pounds, where's the humanity
that's I don't think the least paperwould have sold them to put them.
They wouldn't have printed them. Well, I wouldn't think they'd be allowed to
in any event, but it's thehumanity or the lack there of of humanity
exactly, that's that's shocking. Ithink um words for your listeners. If

(01:30:05):
there are any people out there thatknow anyone that carries a knife, try
to dissuade them. Don't put yourselfin the front line and put your face
in their face. Try try tosteer them away. There is a there
is a better way, because nightsaren't the answer. There's there's a couple

(01:30:31):
of things that go wrong. Youcould try to use it and lose it
and someone uses it on you.That's one scenario. And another one which
is not good is the fact thatyou've killed someone. In net, you've
killed yourself and you killed your family. Because if you kill someone and you're
found guilty, you're going to spenda long time and the Majesty's pleasure in

(01:30:55):
prison for a minimum of twenty years. So all of things that you will
lose, you will loose. Thereis no future for you because when you
come out of prison after your twentyyears or twenty five years stamp wherever the
cases at time, what's your futurefrom there? You're now thirty to fourty
years of age. Your CB doesn'tlook that good, does it. You've

(01:31:20):
got nowhere to go, so you'reprobably going to plot back where you came
from. But if there's anyone therethat knows people that carries nice report them.
There's no shame in because that personmay kill your sister or brother.
That person may kill your or uncle. It could kill the policeman, it

(01:31:41):
could kill a fineman, it couldkill anybody, even go as on immune
to being stabbed. So don't thinkthat you're doing the wrong thing by grasping
people up or being a snitch.You're doing the right thing because that person.
Why would a person carry a nicelike an? They say for my

(01:32:02):
defense, I'll say bullshit. Allright, if you want to defense,
use your legs and run away.There's your defense. Right. If you
carry a knife, it is classedas a weapon unless it's used for cutting
bread, which is different. Ifsomeone you know is carrying a knife,
you're inducing them to do whatever theywant once that knife gets in their hand.

(01:32:27):
You can't just turn a blind eyeif anyone knows someone that does carry
a knife, reporting to the police. I don't know what the police would
do because could they arrisk them.I don't know they could put a watch
alert on them. It's all aboutsaving lives, not putting people in prison
for murder murders. The after eventthat is the reactive. I want the

(01:32:51):
proactive, which is preventing the useof a knife people get maimed. There's
probably thousands and thousands of more peoplebecause the numbers are I think I was
submitted by the hospitals, and Ibet you that the numbers of people in
the incidence of people being stamped itis probably higher because if they haven't got

(01:33:13):
the time to write the report outI mean, send the information back to
where it goes to some central database, then those numbers woun't appear as the
ground some of people being attacked bynight. So I'm pretty sure the number
will be higher. And knife crimeruns into the one or two billion pounds

(01:33:34):
a year you took about the police, the ambulance, the courts, magistrates.
That's a collective time it is.This was back in two thousand and
nine. I think it's been onepoint five and two million billion pounds a
year. To talk about all theagencies to get involved. People might say
whether theyre getting paid anyway, butthat's that's the se they're talking about anything

(01:33:57):
that's involved. Why should tie downthe husband's staff by taking the people that
are using nights? You know,it's if I can sort of add on
to the point you just made there, there's two things that have really stood
out to me based on what ourconversation today, one of which is when

(01:34:21):
you said about that list of twentythings that people love. Value those twenty
things. If you really love thosetwenty things, protect them because as soon
as you go to prison, thatas you said, they're gone. You
have to be responsible for yourself.But as you said, a loved one,

(01:34:45):
if you've got a loved one whocarries a knife, it might be
that they kill someone God forbid,But it also might be that in sort
of and don't want say, droppingthem in it, But if you report
it to the police, it mightbe that you're actually saving them. You
just don't you just don't know.You could have a word with them first
and discourage them. Yeah, Andif you're if you're that fearful, I

(01:35:10):
mean, you don't know how thingshappen when and why they happen when they
happen, they just happen, yeah, every reason. And if if you
do have a knife, there's everychance, you're going to use it every
chance. Yeah, And as tosay that between a knife carrier and a

(01:35:36):
murderer as a split second, dependson how your mind is functioning at the
time, all this panic and shareand that's going on, and your natural
state of your your base mentality kicksin. If you're naturally aggressive, you're
going to pull the knife out.Well, you may not have seen the
other three guides of a knife thatyou pulled a knife on, but they

(01:35:58):
all of a suddenly a people one. So there's there's four knights in play.
And the first guy that produce onethink he's been you know big,
I am, Yeah, a knife, and the other three guys came pill
know what, they all pour one. So now you've got four guys doing
to dance with knives. Someone's goingto get killed. If you haven't got

(01:36:18):
a knife. I can't see thesense and carry knights. Just can't.
No, neither can I and IColin, I want to thank you so
much for sharing your story. Igot tear full at times because it is
so hard to hear and you've sharedsuch intimate details. But the one thing,

(01:36:42):
so I am going to be puttingdetails of the Foundation and the Academy
in the show notes for the forthe podcast. So please anyone listening go
and have a look. Support themif you can, because Rob's story is
just one of so so many,and if we can do anything to try

(01:37:08):
and combat knife crime, it'll besafer for our children, for our loved
ones, and we can hopefully tryand stop these kind of horrible, hideous
acts from happening. So thank youso much Colin for today and because also
thanks for the Student's Verdict podcast.Thanks for having me on today. We're

(01:37:33):
currently to those listening, we arecurrently at an hour and seventeen. That's
sure. I think it's steven forthree hours. Honestly, you've just got
so much, so many like goldnuggets, Colin, that nobody wants to
We just want to let you talk. Oh, I'll tell you about something
else that happened at number ten.You remember me talking about Rob and he

(01:37:58):
likes the fun and stuff. Yeah. I went to number ten to speak
to Sir Gordon. And do youremember the film Love Actually Yes? Yeah?
Remember those yellow walls, Yeah,with the pictures of the Prime ministers
guying up the stairs? Yeah?Will they actually exist? Okay? And
I got halfway up the stairs,and I remembered Hugh Grant dancing down the

(01:38:21):
stairs as a prime I turned aroundand come downstairs, waiving my arms and
the yeah, just like anyone walkingup past me. But what the hell
was he on? And I thought, that's what Rob will do. I
actually done it in Rob's memory becauseI knew he would have done that.
People have done that such an amazingtribute. I love that. The greatest

(01:38:45):
inspiration to do that initially was thecolor of the walls. I mean,
I just love actually is love actuallyseen? It's not so number ten and
he got up these sort of windingstairs and he's a grand yeown stairs to
go up to the horn upstairs,and you get halfway up if you go
on. So I do have Youdo have my sense of humor. Although

(01:39:10):
I've been through a hell of alot. That's something that's helped me special
release to work. It's great workin my colleagues and still have fun because
silver lightily. But you absolutely forgethave fun. But don't forget that is
let's see. I don't need tosay anything else. Thank you so much.
Question maybe it's nice talking to you, Thank you, Thank you podcast

(01:39:35):
I don't want to take away fromwhat Colin has said, so I'm just
going to say that's the end ofthis special bonus episode. Thank you so
much for joining me today. TheStudent's Verdict is a bi weekly podcast,
so follow us on social media tohear about our next episode. I will
also let you all know when thedocumentary comes out. Please make sure that

(01:40:00):
you watch it. It's amazing,absolutely incredible. See you on the next
one, and let's keep each othersafe.

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