Ep 14 (K)nox: The Rob Knox Story Part 1

Episode Transcript
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(00:23):
Do do the Bottle. On thetwenty fourth of May two thousand and eight,

(01:03):
eighteen year old Rob Knox was outcelebrating he had not long finished filming
for Harry Potter and the Half BloodPrince, where he played the role of
Marcus Belby. Landing that role wasa huge break for Rob, who was
clearly destined for great things, includingappearing in the future Harry Potter film Harry

(01:25):
Potter and the Deathly Hallows. Unfortunately, the defendant was also out that night.
After Jamie, Rob's brother was threatenedwith a knife by the defendant,
Rob stepped in as the protective olderbrother. As he and his friends attempted
to disarm the defendant. Rob wasstabbed five times. You see, unbeknownst

(01:48):
to the group, the defendant hadin fact been carrying two kitchen knives.
Five of Rob's friends also suffered seriousinjuries resulting from the confrontation. Despite the
best efforts of paramedics and hospital staff, Rob ultimately lost his life. That

(02:49):
Hey, everybody, and welcome tothis special episode of the Student's Verdict podcast.
To all of you new listeners.Hi, my name's Emily and I'm
your host. Today we're going tobe doing things a little bit differently.
So it all started with one man, Aaron Truss, a close friend of
Rob's, who has just finished directinga documentary about Rob's life and knife crime.

(03:15):
It's called Knox The Rob Knox Story. This documentary is going to be
released soon and let me tell you, you are not going to want to
miss it. It's such a beautifultribute to Rob that will have you feeling
every emotion under the sun. Nowwhy am I telling you all of this,
Well, I'm very excited to tellyou that myself, Chantelle of Lady

(03:38):
Justice Podcast and Steve of True CrimeFix Podcast are collaborating to bring you the
listeners the Story of Rob Knox.True Crime Fix will tell you all about
Rob and his life. You'll behearing from Colin, Rob's dad, and
some of Rob's close friends and family. Lady Justice Podcast will tell you all

(04:01):
about the night that Rob died andthe media attention around his case. Please
please listen to both these episodes beforeyou start this one. In this episode,
I'll be talking about the trial andthe aftermath, as I've said,
to really get to know Rob Knoxand his story. Please make sure you
listen to all three episodes. I'veincluded all the important links in the show

(04:27):
notes, so please go and checkthem out. A huge thank you to
everyone who has helped us by doinginterviews or providing us with the material we
needed. That includes the band TaxiJoe, who very kindly provided us with
the original music scores. With allof that said, let's jump into today's

(04:47):
episode, which is dedicated to RobKnox and the family and friends who miss
him every day. There were fortyfive thousand, six hundred and twenty seven
offenses involving nine or sharp instruments recordedby police in two and nineteen, a
seven percent rise on year and fortynine percent higher than two thousand and eleven

(05:10):
when comparable records began. The Officefor National Statistics said, Rob's story is
unfortunately just one of many. Ihad the honor of speaking with a number
of special guests for today's episode.These include Rob's father, Colin Knox,
former Detective Chief Inspector Damien Elaine,director Aaron Truss, and executive producer Joe

(05:35):
Akers. The first person we're goingto hear from is former DCI Damien Elaine.
Can you please introduce yourself and justtell us a little bit about you
and your work. Okay, yeah, someone names Damian Elaine. I retired
from the MET about three years agonow as a detective superintendent within tried and

(06:00):
with gang and gun crime, andprior to that, a vast amount of
my experience was dealing with homicide,leading homicide investigations. And my current role
is as a self employed criminal justiceconsultant, and I also do some work
with an organization called Inside Justice,which looks at and investigates miscarriages of justice.

(06:23):
And you were involved with Rob Knox'scase. As I've already explained,
we will not be saying the nameof the defendant in this case. We
will just be referring to them asthe defendant. Can you recall what the
defendant was charged with and can youexplain those charges in layman's terms? Yeah,

(06:46):
So the charges that there were anumber of charges. The main charge
was murder. Murder is obviously probablythe most serious offense that you could commit,
and you know, murder is basicallyan intent to kill or cause somebody
really serious harm and death results,so it requires a degree of intent.

(07:12):
There are other other charges in relationto other victims of that assault. So
there was grievous bodily harm with intent, and there was wounding with intent,
and again, obviously death hadn't resultedin those circumstances. But both those charges
GBH with intent and wounding with intentare serious charges, typically associated with serious

(07:35):
assaults involving weapons, whether that bea knife or a gun or some sort
of implement where serious, serious injuryresults. This case must have been difficult,
or any case of this nature mustbe really difficult when you've lost a
life. Obviously, in this caseit was Robs and as you say,

(07:59):
a lot of people got injured atthe same time, so it was a
must have been a very trying casefor everyone. How did the defendant come
across to you during the course ofboth the investigation and during the trial.
Well, if I might, Imight just talk about the difficulties of the

(08:20):
case, because the difficulties of thecase, to some extent were compounded by
the fact that obviously this this offensehad occurred in a busy bar, come
nightclub. You know, there wasa lot of confusion. Clearly Rob had
been stabbed, had had a numberof his friends, so you know,

(08:41):
it was quite a confusing scene forfirst responders and in terms of investigating that
type of offense, it's really importantto try and secure and preserve forensic evidence,
identify witnesses, identify subs, andsometimes those sorts of actions can become

(09:03):
very difficult. Given the amount ofpeople that have been injured, the confusion.
There would have been lots of peoplepanicking within the bar who weren't necessarily
injured, but they had witnessed thingshappening, and people obviously had left the
scene as well before police had arrived, So you know, it's about obtaining
witness evidence as well. You know, yeah, where do you even?

(09:26):
I know it sound silly when youpull up to a scene like that,
as you say, you have gotpeople everywhere, You've got people who had
sort of more of a help,maybe some who are not through any foot
of their own, but a moreof a hindrance. Where do you start?
Well, you know, first respondingpolice officers, you know, a

(09:48):
core sort of skill, if you, if you like, of a police
officer should be good communication, andmost experienced officers are first with dealing people,
in dealing with people who a whoare distressed, who are injured,
angry. It's really about taking commandof that scene. So you know,
hopefully there would have been a sergeantor inspector who had arrived, but even

(10:11):
you know, if it was ayoung PC, you know, they also
demonstrate leadership skill. So it's abouttaking command of the situation, identifying what
the priorities are, and you know, really the priorities are in those circumstances.
Um you know, first steps ofa scene of a crime is preservation
of life, and clearly there's lotsof people injured there, so that has

(10:35):
to take priority. Making sure thatsufficient resources have been requested to attend the
scene, whether that's a police orthe ambulance service. And once that's in
hand, it really is there abouthow do I preserve the evidence? Where
do I put the cordons? Becauseyou can have more than one scene.

(10:56):
You know, there might be ascene of a crime where an injured part
he has left that scene, gonesomewhere else, but there's blood at another
location, so that then becomes anotherscene. So you can imagine in these
circumstances there were a lot of victimsof knife crime, lots of confusion,
lots of panic, and lots totake in. But you know, often

(11:18):
police officers act in that sort ofcrisis role and it's really just about stepping
back and considering what the priorities areand you know, trying to deal with
the public in the best way thatyou can. I would imagine in a
case such as this where you knowthat you've got a number of people who

(11:43):
are who are injured, meaning thereis an attacker of some description out there,
that the time element it's really noton your side. Yeah, I
mean, you know, it's it'sabout threat, risk and harm. Really,
you know, somebody that's committed anattack of that nature, you know

(12:05):
clearly needs to be identified and arrestedvery quickly, and it's my recollection in
this case. And the defendant wasarrested very quickly after the incident because it
became very who it was. Sothe complicating factor wasn't necessarily who it was.
But it is still about because youknow, it might be obvious to

(12:28):
you know, a member of thepublic or the public in general, that
you know somebody's been named, youarrest somebody and then you put them before
the court. It was a wholelot more complex than that because you know,
as in this circumstance, pleaded notguilty and we you know's the prosecution's
case to prove the case beyond reasonabledoubt, and that involves gathering evidence.

(12:52):
So you know, it's it's notjust about identifying the individual, which is
really important. It is about,you know, a structured process, making
the best use of your resources toretrieve the most evidence that you can,
whether that's from witnesses or forensic evidenceor CCTV or whatever it might be.

(13:13):
You know, but clearly one ofthe most important things is to remove the
risk, and that was really importanton the night, given that the defendant
in this case was armed with twoknives, and not only that he'd had
a dispute that evening, he'd leftthe club, gone home to retrieve the
knives and then come back, soreally demonstrating an extreme level of intent because

(13:37):
you know, despite having had thisaltercation in the bar earlier on, you
know, one might might have assumedhe could have left the bar and had
a cooling down period and considered hisposition and just walked away, but no,
he decided to walk home, whichwas a mile up the road,
get two knives, and then comeback, which you know, as I
say, it demonstrates quite a highlevel of intent. I mean, I

(14:01):
think that's yeah, as you saythat possibly the highest level of intent.
You would think that, Okay,he to the moment testosterone, I don't
know, you get into a physicalaltercation and then you walk away and you
think that's that's the moment when youcan make a decision and you can choose
I'm going to do this or I'mgoing to do that, and he obviously

(14:22):
shows the wrong thing. What howdid he, the defendant in this case,
come across to you? What didyou make of him and his sort
of behavior? Well, yeah,I mean during the course of the investigation
and the trial, the defendant cameacross as frankly, quite arrogant, never

(14:45):
ever demonstrated any element of resource orregret for his actions. And I mean
just going back really to the pointyou made about, you know, the
level of intent and how this occurred. Um. You know what's tragic in
these circumstances is often these murders happenin the heat of the moment, you

(15:07):
know, in a bar or aclub, you know, where people just
for whatever reason lose control and theyeither have a knife in their possession or
they acquire a knife and use it. What you know, yeah, absolutely
nothing, you know, Yeah,as you say, I mean it could
have ended so differently. It didn'tneed to end the way it did.

(15:28):
But whether it's fueled by I don'tknow, alcohol, drugs, you don't
know. In every circumstance is different. But to go home and get two
knives, you're going back there withan intent. Um, Can you recall
the defendant's previous convictions, because thesewere quite shocking I think at the time

(15:54):
of the of the trial. Yeah, I mean, he'd had previous convictions
for knife crime and a previous stabbingincident. Is my recollection. I can't
recollect the exact details, but sufficeit to say, you had knife crime
offenses, previous convictions for using aknife, and at the time of his

(16:17):
arrests he'd been on bail. Hewas on bail, police bail, having
been arrested in possession of a knifeon a bus. So you know,
in addition to that sort of levelof intent demonstrated on the knife, so
the level of intent demonstrated on thenight, you know, it was another
pattern of behavior that had been demonstratedpreviously. Now I've read this in a

(16:42):
newspaper report. So going back towhat you said about him being on police
bail, it was he was underinvestigation for a knife offense when he stabbed
Rob. Now I understand from thisnewspaper, not sure how accurate it is
that the disciplined two officers and changedits procedure as a result of this case.

(17:07):
Do you know what went wrong andhow the procedure was changed? Well,
you know, my recollection is interms of what went wrong, there
was a view that why was somebodywho had demonstrated this level of previous offending
in relation to knife? So whywas the individual, you know, having
been arrested on a bus in sessionof the knife? Why was he bail?

(17:32):
Depending further inquiries, when conceivably perhapshe could have been charged, and
if he'd been charged, perhaps hemay have been in custody. I don't
know. There may have been othersome other restrictions if he'd been charged and
been on bail. But the positionwas he wasn't charged, he wasn't under
any form of restriction. So Iguess the argument was, you know,

(17:52):
could that could the actions in relationto that offense on the bus could if
they'd have something different had happened inrelation to that, may that prevented what
had happened to Rob on the nightthat it did and its friends. Now
you know, I don't. Idon't recall that any officers lost their jobs

(18:14):
over it, and I can't honestlyrecollect officers being disciplined. But the point
is this, I think, youknow, during the during my time,
during that period, I do recollectthat in terms I mentioned, the concept
of threat, risk and harm iscertainly procedures became tighter in terms of,
you know, analyzing what the threatis in front of you. So you

(18:37):
know, often we get reports involvingindividuals who are suspects for offenses where they
have got perhaps a high level ofprevious offending, and depending on what that
level of offending is, the typeof offending it is, whether it's you
know, use of weapons or sexcrimes or whatever it is, it's really
about understanding what the potential risk isof them offending at any point. So

(19:02):
actually there's an imperative if there isa high level of risk to deal with
what's in front of you now ratherthan wait a period of time. Because
you know, lots of these individuals, these dangerous offenders, are repeat offenders.
So really the imperative is to dealwith it now. So if you
have got an issue in front ofyou or potential offense where you know there's
a suspect with previous offending history,perhaps it's as well to deal with it

(19:27):
there and then and perhaps dissipate therisk for any further offense is taking place.
The defendant in this case, aswe as you've said, he pleaded
not guilty, which I was surprisedat. I'm sure many people from an

(19:51):
outsider's point of view, the evidencelooked quite overwhelming. Nevertheless, he pleaded
not guilty. Are there any partsof the trial that stick in your mind?
I think yeah, I mean,just turning on the first point you

(20:11):
made in terms of him pleading notguilty. You know, my view was,
you know, I was confident inmy own investigation, and we secured
sufficient evidence to put a good casebefore the court. Now you can't always
pre judge how a jury will interpretthat evidence, but my view was it
was a strong prosecution case. Thatdoesn't often preclude defendants to a charge with

(20:36):
a very serious offense is often murdered. Despite the fact you know there's a
strong prosecution case, often they willplead not guilty because the stakes are pretty
high. You know, you're convictedof murder, you're going to get a
life sentence with a significant minimum term, often in you know, sort of
twenty plus years terms of imprisonment,So the stakes are high. So it's

(20:59):
not unusual for defendants in these typesof cases to be not guilty despite the
fact there may be a significant amountof evidence against them. And in this
this trial, I got the impressionthere was a lot of media attention this
whole case. I think, yeah, I mean there was a significant amount

(21:25):
of media attention because it was robbecause of his fame with a Harry Potter
film. But I guess my injurymemory of the trial is the and sometimes
you underestimate this, and you know, you've got young often you know,
on the face of it, strongyoung men who were clearly quite traumatized at

(21:49):
the prospect of giving evidence. Youknow, they were frightened. You know,
they'd lost a friend. And sometimesyou underestimate that the impact that a
trial can have on witnesses where andother victims of course, because often you
know, in this particular case,the witnesses, some of the witnesses were

(22:10):
victims as well. You know,they were very traumatized. So it's easy,
you know, from my perspective,you know, I spent a last
proportion of my time at court.It's important not to lose focus on the
impact that court does have on victimsand victims, families and witnesses, because
often it's about reopening, you know, because sometimes it's months or even a

(22:34):
year plus down the line, andit takes them right back to the time
that the offense occurred and potentially openingthat level of trauma again. I work
in criminal defense and I've found whenI've been to court that the tension in

(22:56):
a courtroom as well. I've neverbeen involved in a murder case, so
I can only imagine, but thatlevel of tension in a courtroom. You
know, you're bringing, as you'vesaid, you're bringing everybody back together again,
that the trauma that was experienced byas you say, victims, witnesses,

(23:17):
Fat Rob's family for example, andyou're they have to be in a
room with their attacker, their theirfriends, killer, and potentially the defendants
family as well, all in oneroom. And the tension sometimes you feel
like you could cut it with aknife, and it's I can't imagine it,

(23:40):
you know, Yeah, it's um, it's a really it's a really
good point that you make, andthe stakes are high for everyone, you
know, the victims family, thedefendant's family. You know, from my
perspective, you know, you knowit, there's there's a lot of pressure
in terms of being a senior investigator. It was a high profile case.

(24:03):
Nevertheless, you've got to you know, you've got to continue to work objectively
and in the interests of justice tomake sure that you know that the defendants
still has a fair trial. Youknow, and when you look at miscarriages
of justice that happened back in theseventies and eighties, you know, one
of the sort of primary factors associatedwith some of those miscarriages of justice were

(24:25):
allegedly, you know, the highlevel of media and public pressure upon police
to achieve convictions. So you haveto keep all these things in perspective and
in check. You know, thingshave changed a lots in those days in
any event, but nevertheless, there'sa lot of pressure on everyone involved,
you know, counsel, solicitors,the defendants, the victims families, and

(24:51):
the defendants families. You know,absolutely, I'd like to talk about the
defendants line of defense. So,as we've said, a couple of times,
he pleaded not guilty, and insome articles they've said that he claimed
to have been acting in self defense. It seems as though the defendant had

(25:18):
got into a confrontation with Rob andhis friends. I believe it was about
a week before Rob died, Thatwas the sixteenth of May two thousand and
eight. Can you tell me abit more about that incident, Well,
I mean, my recollection, Ican't recall the exact detail, but I

(25:40):
certainly was part of our investigation.There had been a previous altercation. But
of course, in terms of himproffering this concept of self defense, although
he mentions the incident the week before, primarily it has to turn upon the
facts of what occurred on the nightof the murder itself. So if you

(26:03):
think about that logically, so we'vealready spoken about the fact that there was
another altercation that night, he'd beenejected from the bar. He then chooses
to walk a mile to his homeaddress, acquire two knives and come back.
I mean, in those circumstances,you know, any suggestion on any
view that self defense is a viablerunners as a as a good defense is

(26:33):
probably not. It's probably not aviable argument, really, I mean,
you know, and this goes tothe point I made earlier on in terms
of, you know, the statesare high. He's not going to plead
guilty, So if he leads notguilty, he's going to have to come
up with some sort of defense,however or strong that that may be.
And in my view is that hisdefense or self defense was weak given his

(26:57):
actions and the level of int andhe demonstrated following that altercation on the night
of Rob's murder. Well, Ialso read that he claimed he was attacked
by Rob and his friends and hadsimply been protecting himself, pulling the knives
or a knife to try and scarepeople away, and that people I think

(27:22):
he sort of said they ran intothe knife or something bizarre. But as
you say, I suppose he hasto say something. If you're going to
plead not guilty, you have tosay something, don't you. I suppose
absolutely, And I recollect this theaccount he gave in terms of people lunging

(27:42):
themselves at knives and all this typeof thing, and it was just wholly
unbelievable in my view. You know, well, I think I don't well,
I don't even understand, but Isuppose, as we've said, he
had to say something, and hementioned or article mentioned that the defendant claimed

(28:04):
to have been battered with a pieceof wood. Um, yeah, he
said that as Rob and his friendsran at him, the knife was catching
on them, but they kept runninginto him. Was that did I don't
know. Did he suffer any injuries? I haven't read that he did.
Yeah. My recollection is I don'trecall any major injuries that would have justified

(28:27):
his suggestion of self defense. Asyou've I mean, as you've said,
he went, he went home andhe got the knives he could in that
instance, if you've gone home,then you are out of danger, aren't
you? In any event? Sowhy not just stay at home if you're
if you're sort of worried about yourlife or your safety, should you know?

(28:51):
Why didn't he just stay at home? So the defendant received a life
sentence with a minimum term of twentyyears. The judge said, and this
is just a snippet of a quote, He said that the defendant was a
highly dangerous man who was a verysignificant risk to the public of serious harm.
The judge went on to say thathe didn't think it was proved that

(29:14):
the defendant intended to kill Rob,but that he just didn't care whether he
died or not. Did you thinkthis was accurate? And do you think
the sentence was sufficient? Well,in terms of the judges remarks about did
you intend to kill him? Thatmay or may not be right. I
mean, certainly, if you usea knife, there's an intent to cause

(29:37):
serious bodily harm, which of courseis sufficient to convict you of murder if
death results. In terms of thesentence, I mean, he received a
minimum term of twenty years, whichis a significant sentence, you know,
And I don't know. Often victimsfamilies will say, you know, I

(30:00):
want them banned up to the restof their life, and the sentence wasn't
enough. I mean, you know, to a large extent. You know,
my role within the criminal justice processis to put the evidence before the
court and it's to judge his decisionto you know, impose a prison sentence.
Do I think it was sufficient?I mean, it's a lengthy term

(30:22):
of imprisonment, it's a minimum term, and if he still poses a dangerous
to society, it's not guaranteed thathe will be released at that twenty year
point. So yeah, I meanhe could have and and my thing,
my recollection is is I mean,because he was under the age of twenty
one. I think at that momenthe was convicted of the offense, the

(30:49):
sentence would have been mitigated in thatregard. Had he had he been over
twenty one, he may have receiveda higher minimum tariff, but it is
a minimum term. There is noguarantee that he will be released at that
twenty year point, and you know, the element of dangerousness will be under

(31:10):
close consideration when it comes to himapplying for parole in due course, and
he'll be on a life license inany event, even if he is released,
And one of the things they willlook at is, you know,
obviously the you know, the natureof the offense that occurred, the fact
that there were a number of previousconvictions involving a life and whether he will

(31:32):
currently at the point that they're consideringparole, whether he represents a continuing danger
to society. When the verdict camein and when the sentence was handed down,
did the defendant show any signs ofremorse. No, he didn't throughout
the whole process. He sounds likequite a cold individual. That accurate.

(32:00):
I think he's variously been described aswell. I mean, many people have
described him as being angry, andthere there was some sense that he'd undergone
some form of anger management therapy atone stage when he was younger. Yeah,
I'd read that, and he didstrike me as being just quite an
angry person and just never demonstrated one, you know, iota of remorse or

(32:30):
compassion um, you know, rightthe way through the whole process, from
his arrest, right the way throughto when he was convicted, even when
he had the even when he hadRob's family in court with him, there
was just no no remorse whatsoever.I find that shocking. But then,
as you say, if he didthose anger management courses when he's younger,

(32:52):
if he's a very angry individual,it might be that that's why he decided,
I'm going to go home, getthe knives and come where the reasonable
person might have you know, justgone home. You just don't. You
don't know what goes on through goeson in someone's head, I suppose.
And moving away from the trial alittle bit, over the course of your

(33:15):
career, did you see the statisticsaround knife crime change? And I suppose
if you did see an increase inthose cases, how did that affect you
and your your team? Well,it was round about the time of Rob's
murder that we've started to see asignificant increase in the level of knife crime

(33:37):
and murders in the capitol in London. And you know, it did have
an impact on our teams because webecame you know, like it, like
any resource that you know, withmore work, you become more stretched.
And then in the years following Rob'smurder, knife crime reduced quite significantly in

(33:59):
London. But then you know,and they've been in recent times, in
the recent sort of four or fiveyears, it started to creep up again
and the murder rate's gone up again, which is you know, not good.
No, absolutely, what what doyou think can be done to try
and combat knife crime because I knowit's particularly prevalent among young people. You

(34:22):
know, I profess to hold allthe answers, but it is a real
complex debate. There are a numberof factors. You know, there there
was a view and it's quite anold view that you know, it's it's
down to the police. Well,it's an important part of what the police
do in terms of enforcement, butthis, you know, police can't deal
with this issue alone. It's it'san issue for society. You know,

(34:45):
I noticed a lot of politicians throwaround the term, you know, um,
turn it into a public health debate, but what does that actually mean?
And that's a that's a longer termstrategy in terms of having a public
health debate, um. But allthe while you're aspiring to a wider strategy

(35:05):
around prevention, you've still got todeal with what's in front of you and
you've got to enforce what's in frontof you. Now, the reality is
more people are carrying knives, andit's pretty much always been the case that
you're as likely to be a suspectum, you know, called convicted of
a knife crime as you are avictim of a knife crime. So you

(35:28):
know, if you're if you're ifyou're carrying a knife for self protection,
UM, and you you encounter aviolent incident, the chances are you you're
going to end up using that knife. But equally, if you carry a
knife, you're as likely to becomea victim of knife crime as well.
So it's UM, it is areally complex debate there. You know,

(35:51):
there's been a lot of controversy aroundthe tactic of stop and search. You
know, that decreased difficultly over aperiod during well it was during the period
of Theresa May as Home Secretary,you know, and there was a big
debate around, you know, whatis the success rate in terms of how

(36:15):
many searches result in tangible results interms of knives being recovered or drugs or
whatever the commodity is as being lookedfor um And you know, as a
consequence of that, a lot ofofficers were weary of discipline or being put
under a microscope in relation to stopand search, and they lost confidence in

(36:37):
it, and frankly they stopped,you know, using the tactic. And
you know, my experience is thatif you look at any sort of criminology,
you sort of research around how criminalsbehave, criminals behave you know,

(36:59):
they are their opportunists and if theysee an opportunity, they'll take one and
they'll modify their tactics. And certainly, during my time of tried and so
anecdotally, we we were receiving evidencethat people felt empowered to be able to
carry weapons because they knew that thecops weren't searching them. So you know,

(37:22):
it's it's you know, I canunderstand and quite rightly, you know,
it's important that if that tactic isused it's used lawfully, and it's
used in a way that that sortof demonstrates confidence in the police. Now,
often that's difficult because often some ofthe people you're searching, other types
of individuals that maybe you know,they've they've got to beef with the police

(37:46):
in any event because they've got previousconvictions or whatever it might be. And
often some of these constant they canbe confrontational on occasions. But nevertheless,
it is important that the tactic that'sused is lawful, its proportional, and
there's reasonable grounds as much as possiblethat you know, the encounter leaves a

(38:07):
positive outcome in terms of that humaninteraction. Absolutely, something that you said
that people believe it's down to thepolice. Now, in my head,
if it's if the police are havingto take a knife off somebody, by
that point, it's already too late. I feel like it has to sort

(38:29):
of start. Don't get me wrong, I don't have the answers, Absolutely
don't have the answers. But tome, it should be that they they're
not carrying them in the first place. Waiver magic wand maybe but you know,
does that does that make sense thatit shouldn't be for the police to
kind of clean up. But thepolice have a role in terms of prevention

(38:50):
and you know, just trying topeople from becoming involved in knife crime.
And indeed they do engage in thosetypes of activities. You know, some
of the work I used to doat tried and was overseeing, you know,
prevention campaigns for knife crime. Youknow, it's important as part of

(39:14):
curriculum in schools. I think knifecrime is dealt with, but you know,
as part of curriculums within within education. But equally, you know,
it's about parental control. I thinkyou know, parents got an important role.
Um you know, if you're youknow, for me as a parent,

(39:35):
if my fourteen year old daughter wasout found out in the street by
the police at eleven o'clock at nightin possession of a knife, well,
you know that would cause me alot of concern. Well, the first
point is, well, what what'sshe doing out at that time of the
night, school night in possession ofa knife? Now, some really good
work has been done in Manchester forinstance, where where where where that situation

(39:57):
might occur, where a young person'sbeen stopped in possession of a knighte.
If it's viewed as you know,this is a risk factor that we need
we now to need to sit downwith partners such as social services and get
the parents involved and urgently do somethingabout this and say, you know,
your child is at risk because ifthey're carrying a knife, going back to
the original point, they could equallybe a victim of knife crime. So

(40:21):
you know they're they're out of thestreet at eleven o'clock, at nine two
o'clock in the morning, perhaps withanother gang member or something. So it
is about that rounded approach in termsof the risk to that child or that
young person, as you say thatthe risk of being either an attacker or

(40:42):
a victim generally speaking, Um,I mean, it doesn't even bear thinking
about if it's someone that you thatyou love, that you care about,
if it's your child or your yourbrother, your sister. Are there any
final thoughts that you have that you'dlike to share with those name, whether
it's about Rob or the trial orknife crime, anything at all. Well,

(41:07):
I think you know, and I'vetalked about this before, but in
terms of Rob's death, it sortof underscores, you know, because of
Rob's popularity and his notoriety, it'ssort of shone a light in terms of
knife crime, and Colin and Sally, Rob's parents really turn that into something
positive with the Rob Knocks Trust andall the work that they've done, you

(41:30):
know, in terms of anti knifecrime messages and what have you. But
really what it did for me underscoredthe fact that if it could happen to
Rob, it could happen to anyone. And but also that split second,
you know, it was a disputein a bar, you know, over
nothing, and somebody's lost their liveover it. You know, Rob's lost

(41:51):
his life over it, and itcould happen to anyone. And just the
impact as well in terms of youknow, some young people who end up
being convicted of murder um, youknow they've they've ruined their lives as well.
You know, they go to prisonfor a significant term. It's the

(42:12):
impact on their family and you knowthey will be on life license for the
rest of their lives. Now,lots of people say, well, I
really don't care about that individual,but if you take a step back,
it's the whole impact on society.Do we want to be in a position
where we're banging up young people when, as you rightly point out, we

(42:34):
should be focusing on prevention and stoppingit happening in the first place. Um,
you know. So, I thinkit's a really important point from a
societal perspective that we do more todeterminife crime because you know, young people
people do react when they've had adrink. They do lose lose their temper,

(42:59):
and it can and have tragic circumstances, you know. Yeah, And
I think that's why the Rob's parentsthey sort of a huge advocates against knife
crime, and they go into schools, and I think that's why Rob's story
is so important to tell because,as you say, Rob could have been

(43:22):
anyone. Anybody can get into anargument in a bar. So I think
that's a very sort of sobering pointto end on. Damian, thank you
so much for taking the time tospeak with me today. I really really
appreciate it. It's a pleasure.Emily, thank you, thank you.

(43:46):
My next interview is with Joe Akers, who is one of the executive producers
of Knox The Rob Knox Story.He is also one of the incredible musicians
who makes up Taxi Joe, whocreates to the song you heard at the
beginning. I'd like to welcome tothe show. Today's special guest Joe Acres,

(44:09):
Thank you so much for joining metoday. Thank you. So,
Joe, can you please introduce yourselfand just tell us a little bit about
you? Okay, So, yeah, my name's Joe. I'm I'm involved
in I'll produced the documentary with Aaronand Colin. I also with two other

(44:34):
guys who I'm in a band with, wrote and recorded the soundtrack. So
that's kind of doubly fun for me. But yeah, it's it's been a
kind of my experience of this wholething is having nine robbed myself. I
mean, we met same year hedied, so we weren't, you know,

(44:54):
super close, but we had somegreat times together in the time that
we did know each other. Andwe made a short zombie movie because Aaron
and I have been making movies sincewe were very, very young, and
this is kind of just another oneof those things that we do, you
know, But this has been avery it's been a love job, this

(45:16):
film. So um, yeah,I'm I'm kind of personally, I do
lots of different things in terms ofart, like writing and music and films
and just sort of everything really,and this is a my first documentary actually,
so I've really enjoyed kind of goingdown that rabbit hole, you know,

(45:40):
discoverage. Yeah, particularly I supposebecause you've got that that personal connection
as well. Yeah. I thinkthat's what's lovely about this documentary is that
the amount of people involved, familyfriends, they're such a personal touch on

(46:01):
it. I suppose that's how yougot involved in this project then, is
through knowing Rob and the family.Yeah. So yeah, we as I
say, we've made a cheesy zombieflick when we were younger, and like
shortly after we finished making the filmswhen he passed, and it threw us

(46:25):
all because we were only you know, I think I was twenty. I
was a couple of years older thanthe others. But just the idea that
someone so young that was in yourfriendship group could just disappear like that,
it blew us all apart. Andthrough the years when they when the family

(46:45):
set up the Rob Knox Foundation,they kind of did various different things.
Obviously, they made the Cold Kissthe Knife crime awareness movie with Ray Winston,
which I was also in, andthey made they They've done the Robknox
Film Festival, which I've played ata couple of times. Actually, and

(47:05):
had a couple of films entered intowhich was also very good. So yeah,
it's it's been kind of like we'vebeen involved on that kind of level
for a while. That's nice.Though again, I think that that personal
touch radiates through the documentary. Andspeaking of which, what can you tell

(47:30):
us about the Rob Knox documentary?The documentary itself is I think it's quite
special in terms of true crime because, as you say, there is the
fact that we were all friends,you know, and it was made by
friends and family of Rob, soso a large percentage of the percentage of

(47:54):
the production team were people that knewhim, and so there was there was
there is this essence of you weresaying earlier that you can actually get to
know Rob and you can feel Robin there, which was something we were
really aware of. And I thinka lot of documentaries, true crime documentaries
tend to focus more on the defendantand the actual crime itself so true,

(48:19):
so so true, and it's allabout how did they do it or what
kind of person would do this?And we've kind of taken a different route
because of it was Rob and hewas such a fantastic human being, and
I don't just say this lightly.You know, he was really special to
know, and we kind of wantedto show someone's died here, you know,

(48:44):
and and the impact that it hadon the family and his friends and
everything and all of us. Andthe fact that, you know, twelve
years later, we're still talking abouthim is It's huge. It is And
it was being fortunate enough to havebeen able to preview the documentary early.

(49:07):
I obviously didn't know Rob on apersonal level, and yet you did feel
this this connection. So there's obviouslythere's various footage, old footage, for
example, and you found yourself laughingalong, you found yourself just having such

(49:30):
a great, great time and asif you were a friend. And yet
obviously then it sort of turns tothis this tragedy. And obviously the other
important part of the documentary was talkingabout the impact of knife crime on society.

(49:51):
I thought, I thought it wasI thought it was amazing. And
one of the aspects of the doctcommentary that is quite hard hitting is the
trial aspect. Now, I knowyou weren't at the trial, but what

(50:13):
can you tell us, having sortof seen it through the documentary and interviewed
various people, what can you tellus about the defendant's trial. So yeah,
as you say, I wasn't there, but we interviewed a lot of
people and got their account of it. So we kind of got like an
overview of piecing together what happened,because the same thing happened with the night

(50:37):
he died. It was there's lotsof different stories. So with regards to
the trial, what it seemed tobe there was this sense throughout, you
know, Rob's family and friends thateven though the defendant was caught there with
the knives and he had a barfull of people that saw him do do

(51:00):
the deed, there was this sensethat he might still get away with it.
And there was there was that kindof sense that it was kind of
edgier seat that they didn't want tobelieve that it was a done deal,
even though they all knew because theysaw it. You know, they were
all there and other people saw it, and they were and and you would

(51:22):
think he sort of banged to rights, but then he goes and pleads not
guilty, throws everything up in theair, and you know, and starts
the defense were saying things like,you know, he was acting in self
defense and um, he was surroundedand and and he was trying to They

(51:45):
were trying to paint this picture,um that Rob and his friends were some
sort of gang that were ganging upon him. Um. So the sense
that the family kind of the wholestory of the trial is kind of told
through this sense of resentment that therewas even a trial to begin with,

(52:07):
because it just seemed so obvious He'sguilty. Why are we even doing this?
You know? Yeah, And I'vehaving worked in the legal sector,
I know that a lot of familiesvictims, until that verdict comes in,

(52:28):
you can be nine nine percent salninety nine percent sure that it's going to
be a guilty verdict. But untilthat verdict actually comes in, sometimes you
get cases where it's a complete curveballand actually to go to plead guilty.
Judges very much value if you pleadguilty, because you save the victim or

(52:54):
the victim's family from having to gothrough and experience what can be a very
traumatic trial. So you can beI mean, I do I work in
criminal defense. I know that bothprosecution and defense will they can get quite

(53:14):
nasty because that's the that's their job. But as a as a witness,
I know that some of the witnessesin the defendants case, who were witnesses
for the prosecution, had a reallytough time, and I think that was

(53:35):
discussed in the documentary that they actuallyhad quite a traumatic time having to relive
those events, even in interviews.Just with you guys making the documentary,
it came across really hard. Imean, we there was there was one
day in particular that I remember,and that was interviewing Jamie o Rob's brother,

(54:00):
and Nick Jones was a friend thathe was there in the night and
he actually got stabbed himself. AndI think you're interviewing Nick as well,
aren't you. Yes. He Theday we interviewed both of those was really
hard for all of us. Soit was the four of us. It
was it was Jamie, Nick andAaron and I and we were it was

(54:22):
just tears. It was just everyonewas just in tears because it was just
so tragic. It was bringing back, it was just bringing everything up again,
you know. But the sense thatthese young guys, they're eighteen in
fact, I think James was evenyounger um and they were they so they

(54:42):
were still kids. They sat thereand they thought they were just going in
to tell their story and then they'regetting pulled apart by the defense, which
is, as you say, theirjob, but these are kids, they're
not prepared, and especially since thetack that the the defense had decided to
take with you know, they closedin on him and he was cornered and

(55:07):
when he was complete fantasy because heactually he walked two miles home, picked
up the knives and walked two milesback, and he'd actually been heard saying
a week before, I'm going tocome back here and someone's going to die.
So he you know, there's therewas some really chilling kind of details
read out in their trial, andthese young guys are telling their story and

(55:29):
being pulled apart and kind of accusedof in some way being responsible for Rob's
death, and they were, theywere living with that guilt already in some
respect. So I really really wantpeople to watch the documentary because, as
we say, they do talk aboutbeing having to go through this trial,

(55:51):
and I think I can imagine whatthat trial looked like. Sou for the
listeners who don't know of the burdenof proof is obviously on the prosecution in
any criminal case, they have toprove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.
However, if a defendant then arguesself defense, they claim self defense,

(56:13):
it then the burden of proof shifts, so it is then on the defense
to prove self defense. And soI can actually imagine how that line of
questioning must have gone. And Iimagine it was absolutely brutal, as you
say, for young people who justthought, because when you go to the

(56:36):
police, the police will ask youquestions, you tell your story. You're
not no one questions your story atthe police station. In the trial,
however, you think, oh,I'm just going to go tell my story
like I did in the police station. Unfortunately, it's just not like that.
And so I can imagine how traumaticthat must have been. Yeah,

(57:00):
for that. Jamie says that inthe in the in the dock, he
says, um, I just thoughtI was making a statement. I didn't
realize they were going to try andpick me apart. And there's a there's
a point at which, because therethere's a point earlier on in the night
where um, the defendant is holdinga knife up to nick, up to
his neck and Jamie's in the carwith another of their friends, and the

(57:24):
car sort of pulls up a bitcloser towards the curb. Yeah, just
sort of sort of see how Nickis, Yeah, you know, get
a bit closer basically, And thedefense lawyer kept saying towards the defendant,
you drive towards the defendant, tryingto make out that, yeah, which

(57:46):
was the case. I think itwas, as you say, it was
not m The evidence against the defendantin this case was stacked against him.
And to me, this is anattempt. It's a clutching at straws type

(58:07):
case where maybe the defendant. WhenI spoke to dci Elaine, he said
that sometimes because these guys in thecircumstances know they have so much to lose,
they're looking at life in prison,they just try their luck anyway.
And I think that's probably what thiswhat this was. But I don't want

(58:30):
to end talking about the defendant inthis case. I want to talk about
something a lot more positive, whichhas come out of something quite tragic.
What can you tell us about theRob Knox Foundation, the Rob Yeah,
okay, that's good. Yeah,the Rob Knox Foundation is fantastic. That
is, it's a nice change inplace, because yeah, the foundation itself

(58:52):
is fantastic and it's and it's sucha great legacy for Rob because they've worked
with prisoners and young people to kindof try and put stuff to you know,
nice violence in the UK. Andthis is kind of I guess,
part of that. But then there'sthe other side where they kind of try

(59:13):
and because it's one thing to saystop stabbing each other, you know,
but at the same time, right, you know, but but you have
to do something else, you know, give people another path, you know,
show people that there's another way.And the Robinox Foundation does that.
It gives opportunities to young people toget involved in the arts, particularly in

(59:36):
film and TV and stuff. Sothey've got the Academy where they teach young
people how to use film equipment andcut together things and make their own movies.
They've got the obviously the Festival FilmFestival, which actually they got I
mean, I don't know the numbers, multiple countries across the world. People

(59:57):
were sending in their their offerings fromall over the kind, all over the
world. Um. And but theyget involved in in the community, you
know, and give young people ashot, um, which I think is
just fantastic because that's what Rob wasall about, you know, he was

(01:00:19):
he was all about going for opportunitiesand he got his first TV first couple
of TV jobs himself when he wasvery very he was a young kid,
and he would like write to TVcompanies and stuff and and and so it
kind of carries that on and enablingother young children or young people teenagers and

(01:00:43):
stuff to figure that out for themselves. And it has actually produced some into
some good industry professionals. So it'sI can't talk highly enough of the Rob
Knocks Foundation. It's such a fantasticthing to be a part of him to
watch. Um, I love thatRob's passion as you say, he managed

(01:01:04):
to get those jobs himself, whichis just incredible. And in the documentary
there's you get to see a coupleof seen some samples of his works,
most notably obviously being Harry Potter.And I love that out of something tragic,

(01:01:25):
something awful, his family and friendshave been able to create something,
something that Rob was absolutely passionate aboutas well. But they've been able to
create something so that hopefully these theseyoung people won't fall victim like Rob did.

(01:01:52):
They can channel their energy into somethingamazing rather than you know, being
out and hopefully not getting involved inany knife crime. They can be channeling
their energy into something amazing, andyou never know they might get their break
like Rob did through this through thefilm festival. You just you know,

(01:02:13):
you just don't know with these things. But I just think it's I think
it's amazing that a family, familyand friends, rather than wallowing in grief,
which they I'm sure they feel thatloss every day, every every minute
of the day, and yet ratherthan I mean, you see it when

(01:02:37):
Colin in the documentary, you know, talks about Rob. You feel that
loss, and yet rather than wallowingin it, they've created something amazing.
And I think it's incredible. Youhit them on the head there. I
feel like the pain hasn't gone away, but neither is Rob's presence, which

(01:02:58):
exactly, yeah, exactly, that'sthe trade off you've got to make them.
That's not so bad, exactly horrible, but at least we've still got
something of Rob still here exactly,and it's something that absolutely emulates Rob,
which is a film festival. Imean, it's just it's amazing. Are

(01:03:19):
there any final thoughts that you'd liketo share with those who are listening?
Wow, final thoughts, Yeah,I think something that really stayed with Aaron
and I are when we were makingthe film was that there was this sense
when we started it that we thoughtwe were making one film, and then

(01:03:40):
as we went through it, thingssort of changed and it became something else
entirely. And I think through speakingto people about the topic of knife violence
and you know, youth violence andhow people get to that place, we
discovered that there's no one cause,there's no one pathway, there's no one

(01:04:05):
fix all. And ultimately what wefound through making this documentary is that we
all need to think about ourselves andabout each other and notice things and work
together as a community, as aglobal community, as a national community,
as a local community to keep ourselvessafe. It's way more fundamental than just

(01:04:30):
stop the knives. And I think, yeah, if I'm going to leave
one final thought, it would bejust consider those around you, because anyone
could be next. I think thatis an important point to end on.
And I just want to say thankyou so much for taking the time to

(01:04:51):
speak with me, and everyone needsto check out this documentary for sure.
Thank you so much, Jay,Thank you very much. Because this episode
ended up being so long, I'vehad to split it into two parts,
so please go and listen to parttwo now. Where I interview the documentary's

(01:05:13):
director, Aaron Truss and Rob Knox'sdad, Colin

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