June 22, 2024 • 51 mins
What does it mean to be queer and Caribbean? Throwing back to my conversation with Stush an’ Bush podcast crew, Khadieme and Robert. We explore the complicated relationship between Dancehall and the LGBTQ+ Community. Although lyrical content has evolved over the years, we cite older lyrics and expressions commonly used in Dancehall and evaluate how the lyrics used then possibly contributing to sexual curiosity and exploration. We also discuss the impacts on the Queeribean community.
Hear the poignant stories of asylum seekers who are forced to leave their homeland, offering a heartfelt insight into the resilience of queer Caribbean people as they navigate cultural identity amidst adversity.
Moving deeper into the realm of music, we delve into the queerness embedded within Dancehall lyrics. With these musical backdrops, Kadeem and Robert help us explore the visual and lyrical representation of gay relationships and the significant impact these songs have on young queer listeners in the Caribbean. The episode challenges traditional notions by linking queerness with femininity and emphasizes the need for recognizing diverse expressions of gay masculinity.
Finally, we scrutinize the topic of queer tourism and its impacts on local communities, peeling back the layers of economic dependence and temporary tolerance for affluent visitors. The conversation draws attention to the evolution of sexual lyrics in dancehall, where artists like Alkaline, I-Shawna, Dovey Magnum, and Spice are pushing boundaries and challenging societal norms. From oral sex to bisexuality, we spotlight how modern dancehall is creating inclusive spaces for queer communities. This episode underscores the nuanced relationship between queerness and Caribbean culture, advocating for more inclusive narratives that celebrate diversity and resilience.
The Most Hated Number in Dancehall...#2 (Part 1)
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What does it mean to be queer and Caribbean?
Throwing back to myconversation with the Stusham
Bush podcast crew, kadeem andRobert, we explore the
complicated relationship betweendancehall and the LGBTQ plus
community.
Although lyrical content hasevolved over the years, we cite
older lyrics and expressionscommonly used in dancehall and
(00:22):
evaluate how those lyricspossibly contributed to sexual
curiosity and exploration.
We also discussed the impactsof the global queer Caribbean
community, as they put it Now.
This originally was a two-partepisode, but I am throwing it
back to the second part as thatis the most fruitful part of our
conversation.
(00:43):
However, the link to part onewill be available in the show
notes if you want to go back andlisten.
Testing one tree, but not testtwo.
What about you?
Welcome to the Style and Vibespodcast with me, makayla.
I'll be giving you the insidescoop on music, fashion, culture
and more from Caribbeancelebrities and tastemakers
(01:04):
across the globe, pushing ourculture with authenticity and,
of course, style and vibes.
Hello everyone, and welcome toanother edition of the Style and
Vibes podcast with yours truly,makayla.
I hope you guys are doing well.
If you are new here, welcome tothe family, as I like to say.
Make sure you go back and checkout some of our previous
(01:27):
episodes.
If you're listening to thisepisode, it is a continuation of
our last episode, so you mightwant to check that one out first
and then check out this one.
So we are still talking aboutthe most hated number in a
dancehall Number two, let's jumpright in.
So we are continuing ourconversation.
I had Kadeem end on aninteresting thought, because
(01:49):
what came to my mind initiallywas the idea of homophobia and
its presence being absent fromCaribbean as an identity for
individuals who are of thatcommunity.
So you were saying how this guywas just like you were in China
(02:09):
, and the guy was essentiallysaying they have gay people in
Jamaica.
And it was such a revelation tohim at that moment that it
actually made you upset that youwould even think that like
we're all over the place, whatare you talking about?
So for him it was a sort ofrevelation of cultural awareness
(02:30):
that he had never had, becauseprobably perceptually, all of
the images and things that hehad seen and heard and felt
about Jamaica it wasn't that,and for you it was like do you
think that we just don't existanywhere else?
So it was kind of puzzling.
But also when you were sharingabout.
A lot of the stories that comeout of Jamaica referring to
(02:53):
homophobia are often veryviolent.
It's about asylum and it'sabout, you know, escaping
something.
But the community has beenthere for a very long time.
You know, I've heard storiesfrom you know my mom, or you
know cousins or aunts and unclesand it doesn't seem I didn't
(03:15):
grow up there so I don't knowRight but it doesn't feel like
they didn't know people of thatcommunity and that that was
happening all the time, likethese deaths were the thing or
so.
But it has become such a bigpart of the stories that you
hear and it's primarily thereason, going back to the lyrics
(03:36):
, why boom, bye, bye was.
So it was like this perfectstorm of lyrics that were
completely violent, as well aswhat the stories that were
happening, the support that thecommunity was receiving abroad
in terms of asylum andunderstanding, because not only
(03:56):
where we were going through here, that sort of political stance
around the LGBTQ plus communityas a whole, that they were just
like okay, it's not just us, wehave to go and make sure that
this experience is highlightedeverywhere and how can we help
in that sense?
(04:17):
So those became the stories.
So it's either this onespectrum or this other, and you
and Robert really kind of aretalking about all of it and
everything in between.
Tell me about that piece,because you can be of the queer
or LGBTQ plus community andstill embrace your culture in a
(04:40):
rich way, and to me, you guysreally bring that to the
forefront of your platform.
So I'd love for both of you toreally expand on some of the
things that.
I know I said a lot, but youknow just how all of this has
really impacted you.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yeah, the Caribbean is a beautiful and complicated
place and I think I'll sort oflike work my way in a circle,
right, like the note aboutasylum that queer folks in the
Caribbean will sort of like useto truly flee.
(05:19):
That violence I don't think isa fleeing of the Caribbean,
right, like no one wants toleave their home.
Right, like the touch pointsthat make it familiar the things
that are there and like ourmemories that sustain, like no
one wants to readily just likeleave.
(05:39):
Right, there is something thatmakes it so that people must
leave.
And when you do leave and youenter diaspora, that diaspora
connection means that, like younow are like working to recreate
a thing, make a copy of a copyin a place where you are, like,
(06:00):
not deeply rooted or connectedto it, hoping and assuming that,
like the place that you oncewere can be where you are now.
So, with that being said, Ithink that what we're attempting
to do, especially with thepodcast, is to go that there are
so many things that can existat once in complexity.
(06:21):
We can hold all of those thingsand it doesn't take a lot of
work to do it either.
Right, like we get to be all ofthese things.
Because we are all of thesethings, we are the intersection
of being affected by and deeplyharmed by some of the thoughts
that go into the creation ofboom, bye, bye, and also really
(06:43):
loving that stuff like it's good, it's so good.
I get to question how it'spossible, for, you know, buju
allegedly hopped out the car andthen all of a sudden was like
the world is in trouble, right,and and then goes off into this
really beautiful tirade aboutthe violence that, like he needs
(07:07):
to inflict against queer, inparticular, gay men, right.
So I'm pretty sure that thereare people who are like
listening to this right now andgoing like I'm confused, is it
okay?
Speaker 1 (07:18):
no, I don't think so okay, great, I think it's such a
complicated thing that likeit's like okay, I've observed
that, so I'm like okay, I'veseen this play out and we still,
we still, for whatever reason,love the song, and it happens a
lot with misogynist lyrics inhip-hop as well.
(07:38):
I love snoop Dogg's first album.
That was a misogynal mess of afirst album, but I still sing
the lyrics as if I was.
You know, like we haveproblematic lyrics that we are
enamored with.
So I think it makes sense.
But we're also in a space wherewe can acknowledge that
(08:01):
enamorment and disassociateourselves with the actions in
real life, if, if you know whatI mean.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
So it makes sense this is where I want to bring
kadim into it.
Right, like it is worth noting,and when I say worth noting, I
mean like there's like someprofound shit going on there.
For in, in part one where youwere like dance hall allowed for
, uh, a sort of like bringingtogether, of engaging with dance
(08:32):
hall music and an exploration,a heightening, uh increased
relationship to queerness.
Right, the dance hall spacemakes that possible.
Right, and if we want tocontinue to increase the
complexity around this, dancehall lyrics attempt to do one
thing which we might, they domean anything, but we want, for
(08:55):
this purpose, to assume that,like it's there for the
oppression of queer people inthe Caribbean and also is the
space where resistance happens,where meaning and belonging is
facilitated you're trying onething, and you're doing a lot
more um
Speaker 3 (09:12):
tell us girl, you know, as you were talking, you
know you always do this thing,like things are just coming up
for me, uh, and and boom, bye,bye for me, because two things
on that.
I think it was Key Miller, whois a prominent queer or gay
Caribbean writer, who sort oflike wrote about how Bum Ba Ba
(09:37):
is such a queer ass song by sortof like, how it's imagined and
how the lyrics is like like thevisual description of two men
coming together and having sexand coitus.
(09:58):
It's such a queer thing to singa song about two men having sex
.
I'm sorry, that's just it, right.
And, as Robert said, it's doinga queer thing to sing a song
about two men having sex.
I'm sorry, that's just it,right.
And as Robert said, it's doingthis one thing, or it does a lot
of things, as Robert says, butlike we're focusing on this one
thing right now, and yet it'salso allowing for the.
Because how many young queerfolks, for so many young queer
(10:19):
folks, how many of them, wasthat song the first kind of
queer envisioning that they everhad?
Right, and that's a veryimportant thing to think about.
Sort of like, where thathomophobia exists, so too is
that ability to imaginehomosexuality existing freely.
If we just simply took awaywhat we're sort of like having,
(10:41):
which is that, which is that,and that's compounded for
several other things, right?
Um, that space where, like, thegirls are saying boom, bye, bye
, and then the verse ofdescribing two men itch-upping
and and and loving and caressingeach other like I'm, so that
(11:03):
that's sexy, that's sexy as fuck.
Can I curse?
Can I curse?
Speaker 1 (11:08):
it's also a rebellion , if you will, because it's
almost like you know, when yourmom says don't touch that, don't
touch that, don't touch that,and then you go and you touch
that because you want toexperience it for yourself.
So instead of it's intention,but what I'm saying is you know
(11:44):
it kind of makes sense in termsof just not the artists
themselves, but if you're,you're listening to it.
It's this forbidden act thatmakes it a little bit more
enticing, if you will, becauseif it's such a hot topic, if
it's so, you know, discussed sofrequently, then there must be
something there that feels goodabout it as to why we keep
(12:07):
talking about it.
It's something I've neverthought of, so that's why I'm
I'm kind of exploring that routewith you down.
Yeah, we're going down the path, down the land.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
No, up in more lyrics too right, like you referenced
the number two right TaraFabulous song, right, if we do a
close textual analysis of thelyrics, ooh, close textual.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Let me pull it up, let me pull it up, let me pull
it up.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
The hook.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Song right the first two lines, right Some man a play
number two right.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
And then he goes into saying two lines right, some
man a play number two right andthen he goes into say enough man
, a oil and a vaseline girl, howdo you know that?
Right, who told you which?
But also like, like, for somany reasons too.
Right, because I'm not going toadmit to using any oil or
vaseline for any reason.
I'm not.
(13:03):
I'm not that kind of girl.
I'm not coming on the people inpodcasts and talk about my
sexual escapades.
The girls in some of their firstexperiences oil, vaseline, baby
oil in particular tends toserve as lube, like that tends
to be like a very like youngkind of experience, cause, like
you can't just go to thepharmacy at 15 and go buy lube,
(13:28):
but you can't go, but you can'tpick up the vaseline that's in
your grandmother's room, right,and I think, in addition to yes,
how do you know and how are youso hype?
There is something about thehyper specificity of the oil and
the Vaseline, particularly inthe Caribbean context where,
like, the girls didn't know whatlube was.
The girls were using baby oil.
(13:48):
Right, and I know this to be athing because of, like, growing
up in the Caribbean and you know, I had queer friends in the.
I still have queer friends inthe Caribbean, right, and oil
and Vaseline are very twoimportant props in our, in our
world.
So so there is something aboutthis hyper, how specific it is,
(14:10):
that once also speaks to thisqueer Caribbean upbringing, or
this queer Caribbean like sexuallife, which is really
interesting, that, like he'sbringing that out, he's bringing
out both the, the, the yes, howyou know that, but also the
fact that, like younger peoplein their experiences, this is
(14:30):
they're using what they'rehaving, this is the, the.
I don't know there's somethingabout this, how specific it is
that that really highlights um,it, it.
It raises some questions.
Um, yes, how you know, but butwhat, why, what, why?
Why put it there?
What function does it servewith the oil and the vaseline
being there?
Like I, for me, I don't know.
(14:52):
There's something that alsoit's at the beginning.
He's lubing up the conversationfor how he's talking about
women.
There's the position of it aswell.
There are certain things thatfor me, just this song is very
queer as well, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
But I also think it's the automatic association that
queerness is associatedspecifically with gay men, right
and by being a gay man.
In order to be a gay man, youhave to want to emulate a woman.
In order to be a gay man, youhave to want to emulate a woman,
(15:27):
and that's a huge associationthat I think has been around for
a very long time, not justwithin Caribbean community.
But you can be what is deemedas a masculine gay man and not
be feminine and be gay, and thatisn't, at that time, wasn't
quite understood as something,unless it was, you know, outside
(15:48):
of the whole buggery ormolestation type of conversation
.
So it's that association.
So it's almost like you knowthe association and we're going
into deep analysis here.
I wasn't even planning on goingdown this road, but it's almost
like the conversation aroundwomen and the conversation
around gay men coexist becausethere are so Stereotypically,
(16:12):
there are, so many idealsbetween the two in terms of how
they behave in real life.
Quote unquote Can.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
I get a wow.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Can I get another?
Wow, give me a wow, call theambulance.
Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, callthe ambulance because, duh,
right, like, like the, theanti-queerness that exists, it's
very anti-woman, it's verymisog and it's very misogynistic
, right and like questions toask for a shift, right is, can
(16:44):
people who are havingheterosexual sex also not use
lube?
Speaker 2 (16:48):
yeah, might.
Might that also be a thing that, like, you might want to use,
maybe, right, so, if we can likepause and like tap into like
the misogyny piece for a hotsecond right, yeah, there is
this um referring to a woman inthe Caribbean as like spicy and
like having pepper is like onething that shows up, I think, in
(17:09):
the Terrified of a Song.
One, right, and then also Bujucomes in with Boom, bye, bye,
and then he's bringing in thiselement of like what is the
sweetness between the legs?
Right, so there's like thespicy and the sweet, but notice
how like women show up in thelyrics, right, what is the
(17:31):
purpose, the presence, like,what function does invoking
imagery of women and like whatis going to be done to women?
Do for the song?
Who is in control in theentirety of the song?
It it's men, right, men areterming who people are, what
purpose it is that they get toserve in any given relationship,
(17:52):
um, and then like what needs tobe done to them, and then what
we miss from this entireconversation is the way that
other women love other women,right?
So when we talk about like this,this naming and this domination
, there's a naming that happensfor gay men that then, like,
leads to their violence andkilling and erasure.
And then there's a naming ofwomen and a misnaming of women
(18:17):
also that leads to erasure andviolence and reduces the
possibilities for there to bemore beyond this, because what
we've been doing in this entireconversation is going like, yes,
we can zero in on, uh, gayidentity, but then we zoom out
to queerness, because there'smore that's happening in the
(18:38):
lyrics that speaks to throughmisogyny, through homophobia and
then also through class.
Right, if we're talking aboutnavigation, like, who is safe in
the Caribbean, who's able toexpress their identities where
they want to, there's a classcomponent to that as well.
Class allows you to seek asylum.
Class allows you to navigatethe Caribbean in a certain way,
(18:58):
in safety.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Because it's really important to note as it relates
to the violence and death wherethey occur, to whom they occur,
and oftentimes we're going torealize that it is the poorest,
it is the darkest of skins, itis the fat queer folks, it is
the queer folks withdisabilities, like.
It has a huge thing to do withfolks' proximity to class and
(19:21):
recognizing that the uptownqueers are perfectly fine,
they're okay, I'm not.
Goingers are perfectly fine,they're, they're not okay.
I'm not gonna say perfectlyfine, um, that's too much um,
but the girls are.
The girls are not thinkingabout death in the way that they
have to.
Yeah, the girls are notthinking about violence being
enacted the way that some othergirls have to.
Um, and I think that's that's avery important thing to note
(19:45):
here that like it's the poorfolks who are experiencing this.
So what, what are we reallysaying?
And then also going into classa little bit and talking about
sort of like when tourists cometo to the Caribbean, like gay
tourists are fine, and we talkabout like, yeah, well, yeah,
come to the Caribbean, we wantyour gay money.
Like you, your gay money isreally helpful here.
(20:08):
We love you if you're gay, gaytourists are perfectly fine
there is this kind of theover-reliance we have on tourism
allows for what we call ourvalues and our systems, which is
to be anti-queer, is somehowdissolved somehow, uh, it
somehow dissipates, and unlessit's about poor queer people and
(20:30):
that's like a really importantto to, to recognize as well this
all comes through in the songs,right, like, like we have like
moved beyond, like what we mightwant to be, like as like the
the skeleton of thisconversation, but like this
still shows, like it shows up inthe music and it shows up in
the response to the music.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
We weren't 100 sure in part one about uh buju's
attempted alleged cancellation,but I believe earlier when we
were talking, the reason why uhboom bye Bai gets removed, sort
of like from the public recordis because white queer folks
wanted to come to the Caribbeanand I believe that he was going
(21:11):
to be performing at a concertand they're like no, no, no, no,
no, no, no, you can't do thatover here because we don't want
that Right.
So the tourism tie-in, theinternational sort of like queer
politicking tie-in, theinternational sort of like queer
politicking tie-in, and then,like this cancellation of a
thing that is steeped in culture, trying to cancel that,
(21:33):
questioning whether cancellation, culture operates in the way
that it's supposed to operate,are you also not trying to erase
, without doing any sort ofintentional work, the cultural
codification that we see in boombye bye?
What is lost there by trying tocancel him abroad?
(21:55):
What pieces of the Caribbean doyou continue to misunderstand,
misrepresent and try to cancelas well?
Speaker 3 (22:01):
and this is not to say oh I was gonna say, and this
is not to say that Bujoo andevery other uh folks who sort of
perpetuate it shouldn't havesome level of accountability.
But that accountability cannothappen unless queer Caribbean
people are in the room, andoftentimes we see the articles
top 15 homophobic country in theworld.
(22:23):
Jamaica is number one, two arethree and you look at the
writers it's two white peoplefrom Minnesota who've been to
the Caribbean once and whojudged the Caribbean and use
different indices that havenothing to do with what would
really be done, such as ifJamaica has hate crime laws, as
if hate crime laws are actuallysuccessful here.
(22:48):
Let's be honest about theefficacy of hate crime laws and
what it's doing and what it'snot doing right.
And and I think it's and roberthears me go off all the time, I
have probably said it threetimes on our podcast it really
pisses me off, uh, that anarticle is written that sort of
like categorize or rathercharacterizes the caribbean as
(23:13):
this top homophobic place.
That doesn't necessarily takein the experiences of queer
Caribbean people who areactually there.
There haven't been many queerCaribbean writers who are
actually writing about theirexperiences in the Caribbean.
Are.
When the Guardian posts one oftheir 50 million articles on how
homophobic we are, theCaribbean is.
(23:34):
This is not to say we ain't gotour issues.
This is not to say whatever.
It is to say that this kind ofwhiteness, this kind of
whitewashing around our pain andsuffering really just
perpetuates it.
Right, like, like.
It's not helpful that we'retaught that.
You know folks are going towrite all these different
articles on how homophobic oursongs are but doesn't capture
(23:58):
like the complicatedrelationship that queer people
have to dance hall and itdoesn't capture the fact that
queer people can safely be queerin the dance hall scene and
have been right and also havenot been.
It's very obviously again.
It's a way more nuanced.
It's not binary, it's not.
You're either safe or you'reeither not.
It's a lot of gauging.
(24:20):
It's a lot of nuances and a lotof things that people have to
factor.
When I went to a Caribbeanparty in LA, this DJ was like I
don't care if I'm going to getdeported, I'm going to play this
song for you all.
And he played boom bye bye and Igot up on the table and started
(24:40):
whining and started likewhatever.
And folks were looking at mebecause they were like folks who
had stopped because they didn'tsupport what was going on,
looked at me like questioningwhat was going on, like why is
that the case?
I'm going to enjoy the songbecause here you are promoting
my death, and that's cool.
(25:00):
Do your thing.
But we have to have anaccountability conversation and
my dancing is not that I'm.
It's not necessarily as easy asoh Kareem loves this song.
So therefore queer people thinkit's perfectly fine.
That's not it.
It is that our relationship isdifferent and it is that there
is something about the song thatdraws us to it, that creates
(25:21):
some kind of pleasure, and wecan hold that.
And also hold that white folksaren't necessarily doing a
really good job ofcharacterizing our pain, and
also hold that.
We need to figure out a way inwhich we can hold all of these
different artists, that sort ofprofit off of this kind of
violence, accountable.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Me and Robert are like that's a word.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Right, because we're pressed.
What is the accountabilityprocess here?
Speaker 1 (25:56):
I think what you said a lot of what you said was
important, specifically thecomplicated piece that hasn't
really been captured, which iswhy a platform like yours is
really key, because, essentially, you're peeling back the onion
and it's many layers and it's acontinued conversation.
So, and I think that there'sthis misrepresentation and
(26:16):
understanding that the peoplewho are queer in the Caribbean
don't can't live and can'tfunction and it's just like.
No, this is more of a humanrights issue than it.
You know, being able to berespected in your spaces and
being able to exist and be seen,and it's more about, like you
(26:37):
said, people don't want to leavetheir homes.
They just want to feelcomfortable in the place that
they do call home, and I thinksome of that reckoning is kind
of happening now.
And I think it's even moreinteresting that you talk about
you know some random writer justwriting about you know
something that is going to gethits, and for me, it kind of
(26:59):
feels like this modern daycolonial thought of I need to go
and help these people becausethey're in such separation and
they need me to.
We need ally, we need help, butyou can't define what that help
(27:21):
looks like.
It's up to that community todecide how they need to be
helped.
And it just it.
You just said so much, it gaveme chills yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
The one thing I'll just say, too, though, is that,
like it's, it's, it's lazy work.
It's lazy work to write anarticle, uh, that says top 20
homophobic, and and I'm quitefrank it oftentimes just stops
right there and like there is no.
Well, how about we find thefoundation that's doing the work
and and raise money?
Speaker 1 (27:54):
and the progression that is happening, the work that
is being done.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Honestly, I don't even care about that too, that,
right, right, I personally evenlike, whatever progressions are
happening, like I, yes,highlight those two, but, quite
frankly, the girls need money.
Like, give the girls, give thegirls the money that they need
to exist in this world.
Like, like, like, I think I'vebecome, I think I've become, I
(28:18):
think, like my, my position andsort of like what these folks
who sort of like write thesearticles white people, 98
percent, um, and the two percentI will make space for the fact
that I know two queer Caribbeanpeople who are writing about
these experiences and I alsodisagree with how they do it.
So I'll also say that, becauseit is in a way where, like, the
(28:42):
spotlight comes on the Caribbeanas homophobic and then it stops
there.
But there's not a conversationof, like, underground movements
that are happening that, likeyou know, folks had made, like
J-Fl flag had worked onpropositions to, to repeal
buggery, and the government waslike, oh, actually we're gonna
make that a people issue, sowe're gonna put it like a
(29:02):
referendum to what.
Like these are things that arehappening right now.
Right, and like, these arethings that, like, even if you
try to capture it, capture it,but all you just gonna capture
the one little something.
Now you're not not going totell people what to do.
You have somebody from Ohiogetting this whole top 10
homophobic places, but not 10ways in which you can support
(29:23):
LGBTQ folks in the Caribbean.
Like the framing, it's lazyjournalism, it's lazy work, it's
lazy travel blogging and that'softentimes what it is.
It's a travel blog, but like itbrings up this kind of
heightened focus on our lives ina way that doesn't help, right.
(29:44):
So now folks have to deal withthis extra attention.
That's going to happen, thisconversation that's going to
happen, but nothing is going tocome of it, of it and and I
think it's that frustration,right, like you can't just say
actually, you know, I feel likeI'm gonna repeat my point like
six times, so I'm gonna stopright there, but all this to say
it's annoying indeed.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
So we talked a little bit about specifically, you
know, the those songs were oflike the 90s era.
How do you think the music haschanged and there is what work
has been done in your opinion.
From a lyrical standpoint Ikind of shared in the last
podcast, it's not as blatant,it's, you know, a little bit
(30:30):
more subtle.
Um, there is more.
Yeah, I, I think it's just moresubtle.
I don't think it's it's gone.
I think there are innuendos andI think you know it also has
come with this new sexual energythat is happening.
So I think, especially duringthat, oral sex wasn't a thing,
(30:53):
okay, and now it's a thing thatpeople talk about, that people
enact.
I've seen videos.
I've seen not, not, not porn.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
You're, you're, you're, you're citing the
policeman, aren't you?
You're talking about thepoliceman.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Oh, no, no, no, I wasn't talking about the
policeman, I was literallytalking about like.
So I remember like alkaline hada song and they talk about body
washing and, uh, you know,aishana has come out with, you
know, um, the ed sharon remix tothat song where she had that
boat.
You know, tree some and all ofthose sexual things.
(31:29):
Dovey magnum talks about oralsex and I'm just like, well, all
these women are giving oral sexand not getting anything.
I don't know Jamaican womenthat operate that way.
So you know, as oral sex hasbecome more popular and that was
heavily associated with the gaycommunity, so has gayness and
(31:49):
queerness.
In the dancehall it's kind ofsoftened its barrier a bit.
In the dance hall it's kind ofsoftened its barrier a bit.
There are still men who aredefinitively stating their claim
to to being a heterosexual, butthere's a little bit more
freedom in terms of theraunchiness and directness of
the lyrics that have madequeerness a little bit.
(32:13):
I don't think it's like thegates are open, but I think it's
a little bit more freeing, ifyou will.
But that's just my outsiderassumption.
What are your thoughts in termsof the progression of lyrics
and the space itself and how ithas changed and I know you're
(32:35):
now like an adult partying here,so it's definitely vastly
different.
It's even more freeing herethan I.
But what are your?
What are your thoughts?
Robert is like I don't gonowhere.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
I'm I'm wondering if there's like a gender component
to this.
Right, like, as more womenenter the dance hall reggae
scene, do we also see a shift inthe lyrics?
Right, like I'm rememberingRamping Shop, which was like
early 2000s, sorry, like late,or like mid to late 2000s, right
(33:15):
, um, and like that has uh menand women on the song teaming up
against the gays, so, um, and Ibelieve like they uh then bring
in like women, like men to,maybe I believe so right, um,
man to man, gal to gal, thatruns sconding which go ahead, go
(33:37):
ahead we have that and thenlike, again I'm jumping.
But then we have Spice who comesin and again I don't know like
the line itself in particular,but she says something about
like scooby doo drawers or likesomething like that, where I
(33:57):
only stiff cooking use, metgalcom, right.
So like she comes in and shereinforces that, uh, what men
were saying in the 90s aboutlike stiff buddy is the only
thing that's like going tohappen in the sexual liaison.
She comes in, she goes, yeah,that's it, because like that is
the marker of a true man.
But then we have other people,uh, of the queer persuasion or
(34:21):
not, coming in and going, buteveryone can kind of just like,
do this thing, that is oral sex,and like that is fine for you
to go ahead and do that and itdoesn't speak to your manhood or
not.
What I think is the line betweenall of this is that there are
certain people in dance hall,the dance hall artists, who have
(34:42):
enough cultural capital to beable to demand things of people
in society.
Right, one of the earlierartists that we were talking
about has this line where he'slike but what, minat?
Test number two, what about you?
Right, there's this call to go.
I'm not doing this.
What are you doing, right?
(35:03):
How does that keep happening inthe lyrics later on into the
2000s, uh, the 2010 teens area?
To now, like, what calls arebeing made at each other and who
has enough power and capitalculturally?
Who is like of the best dancehall artists to be making
demands of what it looks like tobe a man?
(35:25):
A loosening of the hold thatmusic has on culture itself,
right?
Like we love to say thatculture informs music and music
(35:46):
informs culture.
But there's a rift, a necessaryrift, that's going on, where
there's a loosening going on.
But, like, what is the reasonfor that?
Speaker 3 (35:55):
I'm not answering.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Robert's question.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
I was clarifying your question the reason for the
rift or the reason that?
Speaker 2 (36:03):
the reason for the rift and and I tend to ask
questions like don't need to be,we can like sit with them to go
.
Well, there is something goingon here.
It had a grip on us from, youknow, the 90s well, the 80s
really, until like the early2000s, and then now it's
loosening.
Yeah, what is it that iscreating for that expansion
(36:25):
between how music literally andlyrically defines how sex is
able to happen?
Something is like some workright, progress or not is being
done there.
What is it?
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Yeah, I'm thinking about like dance hall serving as
this Initially, when the girlssort of like got into the dance.
It's like it's this thing totalk about slackness.
Dance hall is about slackness,da, da, da da.
And I like, back in the daysthe girls, the girls were going
off right Like ladies, all inthe days the girls, the girls
were, were going off Right LikeLady Saw had the lyrics like the
(37:03):
very, the very slack, lewd,sexually deviant kind of things
that really went against whatthe values I guess were of the
country at the time.
And I'm seeing now a verysimilar thing with that.
And I'll be very transparentI'm not every single dancer or
(37:23):
artist that I listen to, no,like Malik Skilibing, malik
Kushtan, you know, et cetera, etcetera, and I'll say why I say
that in a bit.
But there has always been womensinging about the things that
women should not sing about,right?
And yes, the oral sex also hasa lot to do with men and their
(37:47):
refusal.
But I'm also thinking aboutpeople like Queen Lady Gangsta
and Shensia.
And Queen Lady Gangsta who inher one viral song is like me,
love kaki, I'm a love pussy too.
First touch me, baby.
What you gonna do him?
Say him want me and she say himwant me to.
(38:07):
She said she want me to likethis kind of bisexuality that's
happening in the lyric um whichlive for right, I think.
I think there has always beenthis thing of women singing
about their sexual deviance,either in their acts and what
they do, and it being a queerthing, and I think now what's
(38:29):
happening is that I don't wantto say, with progression, with
time, the lyrics have gottenmore lewd and more open, because
I think that's a really, youknow that's a claim that I don't
feel confident backing up rightnow, in this moment, but what I
will say is that consistentwomen singing about, um, their
experiences as the, the personwho's doing things that they're
(38:52):
not supposed to do becausethey're women in a in a Jamaican
society, um, there's thisopenness that's happening now
right and like.
I can cite Queen Lady's lyricsbecause I listen to it every
single day um, uh, but likeShensia singing at Jamaica's
Pride some years ago, d'angelodoing the same, like, every year
(39:14):
, there is some kind ofdancehall artist every year,
there is this kind of meshingthat's happening right, um, that
for me doesn't feel new as muchas it feels familiar, um, based
on sort of like what I've readand understood around, like how
queer people have existed in thedance hall space and how queer
people have made, uh, the dancehall space theirs.
(39:34):
Like, if you listen to the fishtea podcast, they talk about
this thing that used to happencalled the batty party.
Uh, that used to happen injamaica.
That's like queer gatherings,first of all, that's a great
name, but, but, um, but, likequeer people gathering and
dancing to dance hall and thenbeing in new york now and seeing
uh, uh, like queer peopledancing, like the bashment girls
(39:57):
, um, doing the head top spinand the head top drop on their
butt, like there are lyrics thatallow for all these different
things to happen.
And I see that now.
But I think it's also because Ithink 20, 30 years ago I would
have been in the space where Iwould see something similar,
with sort of like how peopleresponded to and performed
(40:19):
artists lyrics and their songs.
All this to say kind of went allthe way around.
But all this to say, do Inotice a progression?
I notice an openness and Inotice this kind of where dance
hall artists are not saying orasserting their cis
(40:39):
heterosexuality.
Um, there is this quietnessthere, this silence that like,
all right, I just love girls andthat's it.
Or I love my women and itdoesn't.
I love my women at the expenseof men, or I I love my women at
the expense of queer men.
I don't see that.
I don't't experience that.
With the music that I listen toas much Every so, not every now
(41:00):
and then, yes, that's with menwith with women artists I see a
lot more openness and a lot more.
I'm going to do this thing, butI find that to be a consistent
thing that has happenedthroughout.
Women performing in dance hall.
I just find that the topicsbecome a little bit more great,
because I don't know if, 30years ago, if somebody had said
bisexuality, they would havelike what the reactions would
(41:23):
have been.
But that's what I see.
I see this openness, I see thiswillingness to this kind of
heightened focus on silence one,but then openness by uh, with
women too.
So that's what I would say.
I don't, but I don't know if Iwould say progression or none.
(41:44):
Uh, I think it's.
It's.
It's that itself, in and ofitself, feels like a binary um,
and I can say, yeah, spicedoesn't say scorn them anymore,
and Spice does a really greatjob, you know, posting queer
people on her Instagram andhiring queer people, but like
that's Spice, you know, and Ithink it becomes a little bit
(42:07):
individualistic.
Queen Africa is still banned insome countries, like you know,
so, and she's not all here,she's all here just being quiet.
Not that Queen Africa is adancehall artist, she's just the
person who came to my mindright now um, yeah, that's what
I think.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Robert, what are your thoughts on the work being done
?
I gotta.
I like that so much, I'm justgonna use it all the time work
is being done that's being doneit's been a question of.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
It came up in my meditation practice and now I'm
just like, oh, work is beingdone, um, all right, um, you
know, honestly, I'm I'm not sure.
I'm not sure, uh, because Ican't say, like music isn't my
space, like the, the music Ilisten to is, you know, here's
(42:58):
where I tap into the career ofuh granny identity.
So I uh, you know, take on theuh caribbean, like that's me, um
, so it's giving uh sitting onthe veranda making you a cup of
tea, you know, feeding you, andlistening to Grace thrillers and
(43:25):
like 80s, 90s reggae andlooking at the young people and
going, but dancehall music don'tsound too nice.
I mean, it's like I will likeenjoy it, it, but like I'm not
like in the dance hall world andbecause of like this, like uh
posh of care, that is thecaribbean granny identity, um
(43:48):
dance hall for me and likelooking at it, I feel like I'm
almost like experiencing it,because like dance hall is like
being produced in and likemarketed to people of like my
age and at the same time, I'msort of like sitting out,
removed from it, going.
I'm seeing some things inoperation here that I wish we
didn't do anymore and I don'twant to come across as like not
(44:13):
thinking that people deserve tohave their own expression and to
do whatever the hell it is thatthey want to do, as long as
they're not oppressing somebodyright to like.
Bring this into the diasporaoutside of the caribbean.
Right like kat williams has been, you know, going viral as of
late because of a comment thathe made on the like joe budden
(44:34):
podcast.
Right where he was like uh, ifyou uh can like make jokes, uh,
without sort of like usingspecific derogatory and
offensive language, then youwere never funny.
I believe it's possible for youto make really amazing music
and not oppress people at thesame time.
(44:54):
It's possible.
You just need to do the workright.
So Kadeem talks about like lazyjournalism.
I might apply the same thinkingto that and like songwriting
and performance, right when it'slike you can do some additional
work, some different work, tocontinue to produce something
that is good and doesn't oppresspeople.
That's my wish.
(45:15):
Right when we go back to howqueerness functions here, like
there is some futurity, there issome work, work that I don't
think in the sort of like directmusic industry I have anything
to say about.
I really don't.
People go listen to me and belike who the hell is Robert, who
the hell am I?
I don't know.
(45:36):
But what I am saying, though,though, is that, like there are
some societal things that I'mseeing manifesting in here that
like, if we will like shift ourlanguage, we as a society, as a
culture, as a people, would bein a better place.
(45:59):
A conversation with Kadima, Iwas like I don't think I'm here
to be like policing the wordsthat people use, right, because
when we're talking about few ortwo, I'm like listen, if you
want to use few or two, do whatyou want to do, I don't care.
I'm not going to sit here andlike beg you to shift it, but
what I will say is that, nowthat there is some additional
work being done, now there'ssome openness, I it's possible
maybe not right now, butpossible in the near future that
(46:22):
the lyrics will begin to shiftthe language, and that shift
will then happen both likeculturally and like
interpersonally, where moresongs might not use few, someone
might intentionally put the twoand like redress it, have it
show up differently, so thatpeople continue to practice
(46:45):
culturally the use of languagethat is open, that is affirming,
that is non-oppressive, thatallows people to live their
lives and to enjoy music,because that's why you're
producing the thing, aren't you?
aren't you aren't, you are youis.
Why are you doing this?
Why are you here?
(47:05):
What is your purpose in life?
Maybe the people need to go tomeditation retreat to start
asking themselves some deepquestions about why it is they
do the things that they do,having heard, but it is, uh, not
so great you know what I thinkthat's a great place to end.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
It brought us back full circle to the number and
and how we are are justexploring the, the identity
around it and and, in turn, ourown connection to, to the number
.
So thank you guys so much forjust joining me.
I have to really just thank youguys so much.
(47:43):
This was so much fun um Ireally love.
You know having these kinds ofconversations and you guys were
highly insightful as well asentertaining a little mess, like
you promised just a little,just a little twip, you know you
(48:04):
know, I mean, we do say mix upand blend exactly so, of course,
please share.
You know what you guys havecoming up as a team separately
um with stush and bush.
Of course you know we want tomake sure that we're
highlighting some of the storiesthat you guys have told and are
continuing to tell on yourplatform yeah, so, um, if you're
(48:30):
like we want more conversationwith you, we're out there on
instagram at stush and bush no dright s-t-u-s-h-a-n, because
you know that's the only way tospell an uh bush, b-u-s-h, um.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
And if you want to like, dm us there, that's cool.
I mean, if you want to email usand be like, well, I want to
continue the conversation.
We're truly open to also hop ona phone call, a zoom call.
Don't text me, because I don'tlike texting and like just talk,
because that's what we're hereto do.
We're here to talk and to thinkand to ask questions.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
Yeah, yeah, give us, give us a few days, our weeks in
advance, though, if you'retrying to do that, because you
know, we have to prepare, butalso you can just also just
follow us and reach out to us aswell.
Um, robert's at is queer.
(49:29):
We also do this every time.
Robert does the switch at whichpart and I do the the
individual handles.
Um, you can follow robert atqueer rib granny, obviously.
Q?
U e e, q?
U e e r I b g r a n n?
I e?
Uh, you can follow me at kadimk-h-a-d-i-e-m-e or at sketto
(49:50):
drinks.
Uh, which is like this coollittle home bartending thing I'm
doing because you know hobbies.
But yeah, and what you canexpect from us, I mean, we have
more episodes coming up wherewe're going to talk about a lot
of really cute things and havemore guests.
If this is the first timeyou're hearing about us, you're
lucky because we have fourseasons, four whole seasons of
(50:18):
content that will catch youright on up.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
Um, start from the top so you can see our natural
progression as well um, we alsohave a website, caribbeancom,
and there's like some coolresources there that sort of
like take it out of thepodcasting world and sort of
like.
In like the larger.
What is the theoretical thinggoing on in the background?
Speaker 3 (50:40):
and very interesting yeah, and obviously if you want
to donate, because why we neversaid that you can donate Venmo
cash up at Caribbean?
Thanks, please and thanksthanks, just in case, just in
case your pocket look full pridemonth black music history month
(51:04):
.
Come on, we did all three.
Today I'm going to switch offthe pride month one thank you
guys, I really enjoyed havingyou guys.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
It was such a pleasure.
Thank you again for sharingyour voices.
I appreciate it.
Thanks for listening to thelatest episode of the style and
vibes podcast.
If you like what you hear and Iknow you do share it with your
friends and family.
If you want more, make sure youvisit styleandvibescom and
follow us on our social channels, twitter and instagram at
styling vibes until next time.
What does it mean to be queer and Caribbean?
Throwing back to myconversation with the Stusham
Bush podcast crew, kadeem andRobert, we explore the
complicated relationship betweendancehall and the LGBTQ plus
community.
Although lyrical content hasevolved over the years, we cite
older lyrics and expressionscommonly used in dancehall and
(00:22):
evaluate how those lyricspossibly contributed to sexual
curiosity and exploration.
We also discussed the impactsof the global queer Caribbean
community, as they put it Now.
This originally was a two-partepisode, but I am throwing it
back to the second part as thatis the most fruitful part of our
conversation.
(00:43):
However, the link to part onewill be available in the show
notes if you want to go back andlisten.
Testing one tree, but not testtwo.
What about you?
Welcome to the Style and Vibespodcast with me, makayla.
I'll be giving you the insidescoop on music, fashion, culture
and more from Caribbeancelebrities and tastemakers
(01:04):
across the globe, pushing ourculture with authenticity and,
of course, style and vibes.
Hello everyone, and welcome toanother edition of the Style and
Vibes podcast with yours truly,makayla.
I hope you guys are doing well.
If you are new here, welcome tothe family, as I like to say.
Make sure you go back and checkout some of our previous
(01:27):
episodes.
If you're listening to thisepisode, it is a continuation of
our last episode, so you mightwant to check that one out first
and then check out this one.
So we are still talking aboutthe most hated number in a
dancehall Number two, let's jumpright in.
So we are continuing ourconversation.
I had Kadeem end on aninteresting thought, because
(01:49):
what came to my mind initiallywas the idea of homophobia and
its presence being absent fromCaribbean as an identity for
individuals who are of thatcommunity.
So you were saying how this guywas just like you were in China
(02:09):
, and the guy was essentiallysaying they have gay people in
Jamaica.
And it was such a revelation tohim at that moment that it
actually made you upset that youwould even think that like
we're all over the place, whatare you talking about?
So for him it was a sort ofrevelation of cultural awareness
(02:30):
that he had never had, becauseprobably perceptually, all of
the images and things that hehad seen and heard and felt
about Jamaica it wasn't that,and for you it was like do you
think that we just don't existanywhere else?
So it was kind of puzzling.
But also when you were sharingabout.
A lot of the stories that comeout of Jamaica referring to
(02:53):
homophobia are often veryviolent.
It's about asylum and it'sabout, you know, escaping
something.
But the community has beenthere for a very long time.
You know, I've heard storiesfrom you know my mom, or you
know cousins or aunts and unclesand it doesn't seem I didn't
(03:15):
grow up there so I don't knowRight but it doesn't feel like
they didn't know people of thatcommunity and that that was
happening all the time, likethese deaths were the thing or
so.
But it has become such a bigpart of the stories that you
hear and it's primarily thereason, going back to the lyrics
(03:36):
, why boom, bye, bye was.
So it was like this perfectstorm of lyrics that were
completely violent, as well aswhat the stories that were
happening, the support that thecommunity was receiving abroad
in terms of asylum andunderstanding, because not only
(03:56):
where we were going through here, that sort of political stance
around the LGBTQ plus communityas a whole, that they were just
like okay, it's not just us, wehave to go and make sure that
this experience is highlightedeverywhere and how can we help
in that sense?
(04:17):
So those became the stories.
So it's either this onespectrum or this other, and you
and Robert really kind of aretalking about all of it and
everything in between.
Tell me about that piece,because you can be of the queer
or LGBTQ plus community andstill embrace your culture in a
(04:40):
rich way, and to me, you guysreally bring that to the
forefront of your platform.
So I'd love for both of you toreally expand on some of the
things that.
I know I said a lot, but youknow just how all of this has
really impacted you.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yeah, the Caribbean is a beautiful and complicated
place and I think I'll sort oflike work my way in a circle,
right, like the note aboutasylum that queer folks in the
Caribbean will sort of like useto truly flee.
(05:19):
That violence I don't think isa fleeing of the Caribbean,
right, like no one wants toleave their home.
Right, like the touch pointsthat make it familiar the things
that are there and like ourmemories that sustain, like no
one wants to readily just likeleave.
(05:39):
Right, there is something thatmakes it so that people must
leave.
And when you do leave and youenter diaspora, that diaspora
connection means that, like younow are like working to recreate
a thing, make a copy of a copyin a place where you are, like,
(06:00):
not deeply rooted or connectedto it, hoping and assuming that,
like the place that you oncewere can be where you are now.
So, with that being said, Ithink that what we're attempting
to do, especially with thepodcast, is to go that there are
so many things that can existat once in complexity.
(06:21):
We can hold all of those thingsand it doesn't take a lot of
work to do it either.
Right, like we get to be all ofthese things.
Because we are all of thesethings, we are the intersection
of being affected by and deeplyharmed by some of the thoughts
that go into the creation ofboom, bye, bye, and also really
(06:43):
loving that stuff like it's good, it's so good.
I get to question how it'spossible, for, you know, buju
allegedly hopped out the car andthen all of a sudden was like
the world is in trouble, right,and and then goes off into this
really beautiful tirade aboutthe violence that, like he needs
(07:07):
to inflict against queer, inparticular, gay men, right.
So I'm pretty sure that thereare people who are like
listening to this right now andgoing like I'm confused, is it
okay?
Speaker 1 (07:18):
no, I don't think so okay, great, I think it's such a
complicated thing that likeit's like okay, I've observed
that, so I'm like okay, I'veseen this play out and we still,
we still, for whatever reason,love the song, and it happens a
lot with misogynist lyrics inhip-hop as well.
(07:38):
I love snoop Dogg's first album.
That was a misogynal mess of afirst album, but I still sing
the lyrics as if I was.
You know, like we haveproblematic lyrics that we are
enamored with.
So I think it makes sense.
But we're also in a space wherewe can acknowledge that
(08:01):
enamorment and disassociateourselves with the actions in
real life, if, if you know whatI mean.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
So it makes sense this is where I want to bring
kadim into it.
Right, like it is worth noting,and when I say worth noting, I
mean like there's like someprofound shit going on there.
For in, in part one where youwere like dance hall allowed for
, uh, a sort of like bringingtogether, of engaging with dance
(08:32):
hall music and an exploration,a heightening, uh increased
relationship to queerness.
Right, the dance hall spacemakes that possible.
Right, and if we want tocontinue to increase the
complexity around this, dancehall lyrics attempt to do one
thing which we might, they domean anything, but we want, for
(08:55):
this purpose, to assume that,like it's there for the
oppression of queer people inthe Caribbean and also is the
space where resistance happens,where meaning and belonging is
facilitated you're trying onething, and you're doing a lot
more um
Speaker 3 (09:12):
tell us girl, you know, as you were talking, you
know you always do this thing,like things are just coming up
for me, uh, and and boom, bye,bye for me, because two things
on that.
I think it was Key Miller, whois a prominent queer or gay
Caribbean writer, who sort oflike wrote about how Bum Ba Ba
(09:37):
is such a queer ass song by sortof like, how it's imagined and
how the lyrics is like like thevisual description of two men
coming together and having sexand coitus.
(09:58):
It's such a queer thing to singa song about two men having sex
.
I'm sorry, that's just it, right.
And, as Robert said, it's doinga queer thing to sing a song
about two men having sex.
I'm sorry, that's just it,right.
And as Robert said, it's doingthis one thing, or it does a lot
of things, as Robert says, butlike we're focusing on this one
thing right now, and yet it'salso allowing for the.
Because how many young queerfolks, for so many young queer
(10:19):
folks, how many of them, wasthat song the first kind of
queer envisioning that they everhad?
Right, and that's a veryimportant thing to think about.
Sort of like, where thathomophobia exists, so too is
that ability to imaginehomosexuality existing freely.
If we just simply took awaywhat we're sort of like having,
(10:41):
which is that, which is that,and that's compounded for
several other things, right?
Um, that space where, like, thegirls are saying boom, bye, bye
, and then the verse ofdescribing two men itch-upping
and and and loving and caressingeach other like I'm, so that
(11:03):
that's sexy, that's sexy as fuck.
Can I curse?
Can I curse?
Speaker 1 (11:08):
it's also a rebellion , if you will, because it's
almost like you know, when yourmom says don't touch that, don't
touch that, don't touch that,and then you go and you touch
that because you want toexperience it for yourself.
So instead of it's intention,but what I'm saying is you know
(11:44):
it kind of makes sense in termsof just not the artists
themselves, but if you're,you're listening to it.
It's this forbidden act thatmakes it a little bit more
enticing, if you will, becauseif it's such a hot topic, if
it's so, you know, discussed sofrequently, then there must be
something there that feels goodabout it as to why we keep
(12:07):
talking about it.
It's something I've neverthought of, so that's why I'm
I'm kind of exploring that routewith you down.
Yeah, we're going down the path, down the land.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
No, up in more lyrics too right, like you referenced
the number two right TaraFabulous song, right, if we do a
close textual analysis of thelyrics, ooh, close textual.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Let me pull it up, let me pull it up, let me pull
it up.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
The hook.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Song right the first two lines, right Some man a play
number two right.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
And then he goes into saying two lines right, some
man a play number two right andthen he goes into say enough man
, a oil and a vaseline girl, howdo you know that?
Right, who told you which?
But also like, like, for somany reasons too.
Right, because I'm not going toadmit to using any oil or
vaseline for any reason.
I'm not.
(13:03):
I'm not that kind of girl.
I'm not coming on the people inpodcasts and talk about my
sexual escapades.
The girls in some of their firstexperiences oil, vaseline, baby
oil in particular tends toserve as lube, like that tends
to be like a very like youngkind of experience, cause, like
you can't just go to thepharmacy at 15 and go buy lube,
(13:28):
but you can't go, but you can'tpick up the vaseline that's in
your grandmother's room, right,and I think, in addition to yes,
how do you know and how are youso hype?
There is something about thehyper specificity of the oil and
the Vaseline, particularly inthe Caribbean context where,
like, the girls didn't know whatlube was.
The girls were using baby oil.
(13:48):
Right, and I know this to be athing because of, like, growing
up in the Caribbean and you know, I had queer friends in the.
I still have queer friends inthe Caribbean, right, and oil
and Vaseline are very twoimportant props in our, in our
world.
So so there is something aboutthis hyper, how specific it is,
(14:10):
that once also speaks to thisqueer Caribbean upbringing, or
this queer Caribbean like sexuallife, which is really
interesting, that, like he'sbringing that out, he's bringing
out both the, the, the yes, howyou know that, but also the
fact that, like younger peoplein their experiences, this is
(14:30):
they're using what they'rehaving, this is the, the.
I don't know there's somethingabout this, how specific it is
that that really highlights um,it, it.
It raises some questions.
Um, yes, how you know, but butwhat, why, what, why?
Why put it there?
What function does it servewith the oil and the vaseline
being there?
Like I, for me, I don't know.
(14:52):
There's something that alsoit's at the beginning.
He's lubing up the conversationfor how he's talking about
women.
There's the position of it aswell.
There are certain things thatfor me, just this song is very
queer as well, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
But I also think it's the automatic association that
queerness is associatedspecifically with gay men, right
and by being a gay man.
In order to be a gay man, youhave to want to emulate a woman.
In order to be a gay man, youhave to want to emulate a woman,
(15:27):
and that's a huge associationthat I think has been around for
a very long time, not justwithin Caribbean community.
But you can be what is deemedas a masculine gay man and not
be feminine and be gay, and thatisn't, at that time, wasn't
quite understood as something,unless it was, you know, outside
(15:48):
of the whole buggery ormolestation type of conversation
.
So it's that association.
So it's almost like you knowthe association and we're going
into deep analysis here.
I wasn't even planning on goingdown this road, but it's almost
like the conversation aroundwomen and the conversation
around gay men coexist becausethere are so Stereotypically,
(16:12):
there are, so many idealsbetween the two in terms of how
they behave in real life.
Quote unquote Can.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
I get a wow.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Can I get another?
Wow, give me a wow, call theambulance.
Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, callthe ambulance because, duh,
right, like, like the, theanti-queerness that exists, it's
very anti-woman, it's verymisog and it's very misogynistic
, right and like questions toask for a shift, right is, can
(16:44):
people who are havingheterosexual sex also not use
lube?
Speaker 2 (16:48):
yeah, might.
Might that also be a thing that, like, you might want to use,
maybe, right, so, if we can likepause and like tap into like
the misogyny piece for a hotsecond right, yeah, there is
this um referring to a woman inthe Caribbean as like spicy and
like having pepper is like onething that shows up, I think, in
(17:09):
the Terrified of a Song.
One, right, and then also Bujucomes in with Boom, bye, bye,
and then he's bringing in thiselement of like what is the
sweetness between the legs?
Right, so there's like thespicy and the sweet, but notice
how like women show up in thelyrics, right, what is the
(17:31):
purpose, the presence, like,what function does invoking
imagery of women and like whatis going to be done to women?
Do for the song?
Who is in control in theentirety of the song?
It it's men, right, men areterming who people are, what
purpose it is that they get toserve in any given relationship,
(17:52):
um, and then like what needs tobe done to them, and then what
we miss from this entireconversation is the way that
other women love other women,right?
So when we talk about like this,this naming and this domination
, there's a naming that happensfor gay men that then, like,
leads to their violence andkilling and erasure.
And then there's a naming ofwomen and a misnaming of women
(18:17):
also that leads to erasure andviolence and reduces the
possibilities for there to bemore beyond this, because what
we've been doing in this entireconversation is going like, yes,
we can zero in on, uh, gayidentity, but then we zoom out
to queerness, because there'smore that's happening in the
(18:38):
lyrics that speaks to throughmisogyny, through homophobia and
then also through class.
Right, if we're talking aboutnavigation, like, who is safe in
the Caribbean, who's able toexpress their identities where
they want to, there's a classcomponent to that as well.
Class allows you to seek asylum.
Class allows you to navigatethe Caribbean in a certain way,
(18:58):
in safety.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Because it's really important to note as it relates
to the violence and death wherethey occur, to whom they occur,
and oftentimes we're going torealize that it is the poorest,
it is the darkest of skins, itis the fat queer folks, it is
the queer folks withdisabilities, like.
It has a huge thing to do withfolks' proximity to class and
(19:21):
recognizing that the uptownqueers are perfectly fine,
they're okay, I'm not.
Goingers are perfectly fine,they're, they're not okay.
I'm not gonna say perfectlyfine, um, that's too much um,
but the girls are.
The girls are not thinkingabout death in the way that they
have to.
Yeah, the girls are notthinking about violence being
enacted the way that some othergirls have to.
Um, and I think that's that's avery important thing to note
(19:45):
here that like it's the poorfolks who are experiencing this.
So what, what are we reallysaying?
And then also going into classa little bit and talking about
sort of like when tourists cometo to the Caribbean, like gay
tourists are fine, and we talkabout like, yeah, well, yeah,
come to the Caribbean, we wantyour gay money.
Like you, your gay money isreally helpful here.
(20:08):
We love you if you're gay, gaytourists are perfectly fine
there is this kind of theover-reliance we have on tourism
allows for what we call ourvalues and our systems, which is
to be anti-queer, is somehowdissolved somehow, uh, it
somehow dissipates, and unlessit's about poor queer people and
(20:30):
that's like a really importantto to, to recognize as well this
all comes through in the songs,right, like, like we have like
moved beyond, like what we mightwant to be, like as like the
the skeleton of thisconversation, but like this
still shows, like it shows up inthe music and it shows up in
the response to the music.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
We weren't 100 sure in part one about uh buju's
attempted alleged cancellation,but I believe earlier when we
were talking, the reason why uhboom bye Bai gets removed, sort
of like from the public recordis because white queer folks
wanted to come to the Caribbeanand I believe that he was going
(21:11):
to be performing at a concertand they're like no, no, no, no,
no, no, no, you can't do thatover here because we don't want
that Right.
So the tourism tie-in, theinternational sort of like queer
politicking tie-in, theinternational sort of like queer
politicking tie-in, and then,like this cancellation of a
thing that is steeped in culture, trying to cancel that,
(21:33):
questioning whether cancellation, culture operates in the way
that it's supposed to operate,are you also not trying to erase
, without doing any sort ofintentional work, the cultural
codification that we see in boombye bye?
What is lost there by trying tocancel him abroad?
(21:55):
What pieces of the Caribbean doyou continue to misunderstand,
misrepresent and try to cancelas well?
Speaker 3 (22:01):
and this is not to say oh I was gonna say, and this
is not to say that Bujoo andevery other uh folks who sort of
perpetuate it shouldn't havesome level of accountability.
But that accountability cannothappen unless queer Caribbean
people are in the room, andoftentimes we see the articles
top 15 homophobic country in theworld.
(22:23):
Jamaica is number one, two arethree and you look at the
writers it's two white peoplefrom Minnesota who've been to
the Caribbean once and whojudged the Caribbean and use
different indices that havenothing to do with what would
really be done, such as ifJamaica has hate crime laws, as
if hate crime laws are actuallysuccessful here.
(22:48):
Let's be honest about theefficacy of hate crime laws and
what it's doing and what it'snot doing right.
And and I think it's and roberthears me go off all the time, I
have probably said it threetimes on our podcast it really
pisses me off, uh, that anarticle is written that sort of
like categorize or rathercharacterizes the caribbean as
(23:13):
this top homophobic place.
That doesn't necessarily takein the experiences of queer
Caribbean people who areactually there.
There haven't been many queerCaribbean writers who are
actually writing about theirexperiences in the Caribbean.
Are.
When the Guardian posts one oftheir 50 million articles on how
homophobic we are, theCaribbean is.
(23:34):
This is not to say we ain't gotour issues.
This is not to say whatever.
It is to say that this kind ofwhiteness, this kind of
whitewashing around our pain andsuffering really just
perpetuates it.
Right, like, like.
It's not helpful that we'retaught that.
You know folks are going towrite all these different
articles on how homophobic oursongs are but doesn't capture
(23:58):
like the complicatedrelationship that queer people
have to dance hall and itdoesn't capture the fact that
queer people can safely be queerin the dance hall scene and
have been right and also havenot been.
It's very obviously again.
It's a way more nuanced.
It's not binary, it's not.
You're either safe or you'reeither not.
It's a lot of gauging.
(24:20):
It's a lot of nuances and a lotof things that people have to
factor.
When I went to a Caribbeanparty in LA, this DJ was like I
don't care if I'm going to getdeported, I'm going to play this
song for you all.
And he played boom bye bye and Igot up on the table and started
(24:40):
whining and started likewhatever.
And folks were looking at mebecause they were like folks who
had stopped because they didn'tsupport what was going on,
looked at me like questioningwhat was going on, like why is
that the case?
I'm going to enjoy the songbecause here you are promoting
my death, and that's cool.
(25:00):
Do your thing.
But we have to have anaccountability conversation and
my dancing is not that I'm.
It's not necessarily as easy asoh Kareem loves this song.
So therefore queer people thinkit's perfectly fine.
That's not it.
It is that our relationship isdifferent and it is that there
is something about the song thatdraws us to it, that creates
(25:21):
some kind of pleasure, and wecan hold that.
And also hold that white folksaren't necessarily doing a
really good job ofcharacterizing our pain, and
also hold that.
We need to figure out a way inwhich we can hold all of these
different artists, that sort ofprofit off of this kind of
violence, accountable.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Me and Robert are like that's a word.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Right, because we're pressed.
What is the accountabilityprocess here?
Speaker 1 (25:56):
I think what you said a lot of what you said was
important, specifically thecomplicated piece that hasn't
really been captured, which iswhy a platform like yours is
really key, because, essentially, you're peeling back the onion
and it's many layers and it's acontinued conversation.
So, and I think that there'sthis misrepresentation and
(26:16):
understanding that the peoplewho are queer in the Caribbean
don't can't live and can'tfunction and it's just like.
No, this is more of a humanrights issue than it.
You know, being able to berespected in your spaces and
being able to exist and be seen,and it's more about, like you
(26:37):
said, people don't want to leavetheir homes.
They just want to feelcomfortable in the place that
they do call home, and I thinksome of that reckoning is kind
of happening now.
And I think it's even moreinteresting that you talk about
you know some random writer justwriting about you know
something that is going to gethits, and for me, it kind of
(26:59):
feels like this modern daycolonial thought of I need to go
and help these people becausethey're in such separation and
they need me to.
We need ally, we need help, butyou can't define what that help
(27:21):
looks like.
It's up to that community todecide how they need to be
helped.
And it just it.
You just said so much, it gaveme chills yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
The one thing I'll just say, too, though, is that,
like it's, it's, it's lazy work.
It's lazy work to write anarticle, uh, that says top 20
homophobic, and and I'm quitefrank it oftentimes just stops
right there and like there is no.
Well, how about we find thefoundation that's doing the work
and and raise money?
Speaker 1 (27:54):
and the progression that is happening, the work that
is being done.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Honestly, I don't even care about that too, that,
right, right, I personally evenlike, whatever progressions are
happening, like I, yes,highlight those two, but, quite
frankly, the girls need money.
Like, give the girls, give thegirls the money that they need
to exist in this world.
Like, like, like, I think I'vebecome, I think I've become, I
(28:18):
think, like my, my position andsort of like what these folks
who sort of like write thesearticles white people, 98
percent, um, and the two percentI will make space for the fact
that I know two queer Caribbeanpeople who are writing about
these experiences and I alsodisagree with how they do it.
So I'll also say that, becauseit is in a way where, like, the
(28:42):
spotlight comes on the Caribbeanas homophobic and then it stops
there.
But there's not a conversationof, like, underground movements
that are happening that, likeyou know, folks had made, like
J-Fl flag had worked onpropositions to, to repeal
buggery, and the government waslike, oh, actually we're gonna
make that a people issue, sowe're gonna put it like a
(29:02):
referendum to what.
Like these are things that arehappening right now.
Right, and like, these arethings that, like, even if you
try to capture it, capture it,but all you just gonna capture
the one little something.
Now you're not not going totell people what to do.
You have somebody from Ohiogetting this whole top 10
homophobic places, but not 10ways in which you can support
(29:23):
LGBTQ folks in the Caribbean.
Like the framing, it's lazyjournalism, it's lazy work, it's
lazy travel blogging and that'softentimes what it is.
It's a travel blog, but like itbrings up this kind of
heightened focus on our lives ina way that doesn't help, right.
(29:44):
So now folks have to deal withthis extra attention.
That's going to happen, thisconversation that's going to
happen, but nothing is going tocome of it, of it and and I
think it's that frustration,right, like you can't just say
actually, you know, I feel likeI'm gonna repeat my point like
six times, so I'm gonna stopright there, but all this to say
it's annoying indeed.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
So we talked a little bit about specifically, you
know, the those songs were oflike the 90s era.
How do you think the music haschanged and there is what work
has been done in your opinion.
From a lyrical standpoint Ikind of shared in the last
podcast, it's not as blatant,it's, you know, a little bit
(30:30):
more subtle.
Um, there is more.
Yeah, I, I think it's just moresubtle.
I don't think it's it's gone.
I think there are innuendos andI think you know it also has
come with this new sexual energythat is happening.
So I think, especially duringthat, oral sex wasn't a thing,
(30:53):
okay, and now it's a thing thatpeople talk about, that people
enact.
I've seen videos.
I've seen not, not, not porn.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
You're, you're, you're, you're citing the
policeman, aren't you?
You're talking about thepoliceman.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Oh, no, no, no, I wasn't talking about the
policeman, I was literallytalking about like.
So I remember like alkaline hada song and they talk about body
washing and, uh, you know,aishana has come out with, you
know, um, the ed sharon remix tothat song where she had that
boat.
You know, tree some and all ofthose sexual things.
(31:29):
Dovey magnum talks about oralsex and I'm just like, well, all
these women are giving oral sexand not getting anything.
I don't know Jamaican womenthat operate that way.
So you know, as oral sex hasbecome more popular and that was
heavily associated with the gaycommunity, so has gayness and
(31:49):
queerness.
In the dancehall it's kind ofsoftened its barrier a bit.
In the dance hall it's kind ofsoftened its barrier a bit.
There are still men who aredefinitively stating their claim
to to being a heterosexual, butthere's a little bit more
freedom in terms of theraunchiness and directness of
the lyrics that have madequeerness a little bit.
(32:13):
I don't think it's like thegates are open, but I think it's
a little bit more freeing, ifyou will.
But that's just my outsiderassumption.
What are your thoughts in termsof the progression of lyrics
and the space itself and how ithas changed and I know you're
(32:35):
now like an adult partying here,so it's definitely vastly
different.
It's even more freeing herethan I.
But what are your?
What are your thoughts?
Robert is like I don't gonowhere.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
I'm I'm wondering if there's like a gender component
to this.
Right, like, as more womenenter the dance hall reggae
scene, do we also see a shift inthe lyrics?
Right, like I'm rememberingRamping Shop, which was like
early 2000s, sorry, like late,or like mid to late 2000s, right
(33:15):
, um, and like that has uh menand women on the song teaming up
against the gays, so, um, and Ibelieve like they uh then bring
in like women, like men to,maybe I believe so right, um,
man to man, gal to gal, thatruns sconding which go ahead, go
(33:37):
ahead we have that and thenlike, again I'm jumping.
But then we have Spice who comesin and again I don't know like
the line itself in particular,but she says something about
like scooby doo drawers or likesomething like that, where I
(33:57):
only stiff cooking use, metgalcom, right.
So like she comes in and shereinforces that, uh, what men
were saying in the 90s aboutlike stiff buddy is the only
thing that's like going tohappen in the sexual liaison.
She comes in, she goes, yeah,that's it, because like that is
the marker of a true man.
But then we have other people,uh, of the queer persuasion or
(34:21):
not, coming in and going, buteveryone can kind of just like,
do this thing, that is oral sex,and like that is fine for you
to go ahead and do that and itdoesn't speak to your manhood or
not.
What I think is the line betweenall of this is that there are
certain people in dance hall,the dance hall artists, who have
(34:42):
enough cultural capital to beable to demand things of people
in society.
Right, one of the earlierartists that we were talking
about has this line where he'slike but what, minat?
Test number two, what about you?
Right, there's this call to go.
I'm not doing this.
What are you doing, right?
(35:03):
How does that keep happening inthe lyrics later on into the
2000s, uh, the 2010 teens area?
To now, like, what calls arebeing made at each other and who
has enough power and capitalculturally?
Who is like of the best dancehall artists to be making
demands of what it looks like tobe a man?
(35:25):
A loosening of the hold thatmusic has on culture itself,
right?
Like we love to say thatculture informs music and music
(35:46):
informs culture.
But there's a rift, a necessaryrift, that's going on, where
there's a loosening going on.
But, like, what is the reasonfor that?
Speaker 3 (35:55):
I'm not answering.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Robert's question.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
I was clarifying your question the reason for the
rift or the reason that?
Speaker 2 (36:03):
the reason for the rift and and I tend to ask
questions like don't need to be,we can like sit with them to go
.
Well, there is something goingon here.
It had a grip on us from, youknow, the 90s well, the 80s
really, until like the early2000s, and then now it's
loosening.
Yeah, what is it that iscreating for that expansion
(36:25):
between how music literally andlyrically defines how sex is
able to happen?
Something is like some workright, progress or not is being
done there.
What is it?
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Yeah, I'm thinking about like dance hall serving as
this Initially, when the girlssort of like got into the dance.
It's like it's this thing totalk about slackness.
Dance hall is about slackness,da, da, da da.
And I like, back in the daysthe girls, the girls were going
off right Like ladies, all inthe days the girls, the girls
were, were going off Right LikeLady Saw had the lyrics like the
(37:03):
very, the very slack, lewd,sexually deviant kind of things
that really went against whatthe values I guess were of the
country at the time.
And I'm seeing now a verysimilar thing with that.
And I'll be very transparentI'm not every single dancer or
(37:23):
artist that I listen to, no,like Malik Skilibing, malik
Kushtan, you know, et cetera, etcetera, and I'll say why I say
that in a bit.
But there has always been womensinging about the things that
women should not sing about,right?
And yes, the oral sex also hasa lot to do with men and their
(37:47):
refusal.
But I'm also thinking aboutpeople like Queen Lady Gangsta
and Shensia.
And Queen Lady Gangsta who inher one viral song is like me,
love kaki, I'm a love pussy too.
First touch me, baby.
What you gonna do him?
Say him want me and she say himwant me to.
(38:07):
She said she want me to likethis kind of bisexuality that's
happening in the lyric um whichlive for right, I think.
I think there has always beenthis thing of women singing
about their sexual deviance,either in their acts and what
they do, and it being a queerthing, and I think now what's
(38:29):
happening is that I don't wantto say, with progression, with
time, the lyrics have gottenmore lewd and more open, because
I think that's a really, youknow that's a claim that I don't
feel confident backing up rightnow, in this moment, but what I
will say is that consistentwomen singing about, um, their
experiences as the, the personwho's doing things that they're
(38:52):
not supposed to do becausethey're women in a in a Jamaican
society, um, there's thisopenness that's happening now
right and like.
I can cite Queen Lady's lyricsbecause I listen to it every
single day um, uh, but likeShensia singing at Jamaica's
Pride some years ago, d'angelodoing the same, like, every year
(39:14):
, there is some kind ofdancehall artist every year,
there is this kind of meshingthat's happening right, um, that
for me doesn't feel new as muchas it feels familiar, um, based
on sort of like what I've readand understood around, like how
queer people have existed in thedance hall space and how queer
people have made, uh, the dancehall space theirs.
(39:34):
Like, if you listen to the fishtea podcast, they talk about
this thing that used to happencalled the batty party.
Uh, that used to happen injamaica.
That's like queer gatherings,first of all, that's a great
name, but, but, um, but, likequeer people gathering and
dancing to dance hall and thenbeing in new york now and seeing
uh, uh, like queer peopledancing, like the bashment girls
(39:57):
, um, doing the head top spinand the head top drop on their
butt, like there are lyrics thatallow for all these different
things to happen.
And I see that now.
But I think it's also because Ithink 20, 30 years ago I would
have been in the space where Iwould see something similar,
with sort of like how peopleresponded to and performed
(40:19):
artists lyrics and their songs.
All this to say kind of went allthe way around.
But all this to say, do Inotice a progression?
I notice an openness and Inotice this kind of where dance
hall artists are not saying orasserting their cis
(40:39):
heterosexuality.
Um, there is this quietnessthere, this silence that like,
all right, I just love girls andthat's it.
Or I love my women and itdoesn't.
I love my women at the expenseof men, or I I love my women at
the expense of queer men.
I don't see that.
I don't't experience that.
With the music that I listen toas much Every so, not every now
(41:00):
and then, yes, that's with menwith with women artists I see a
lot more openness and a lot more.
I'm going to do this thing, butI find that to be a consistent
thing that has happenedthroughout.
Women performing in dance hall.
I just find that the topicsbecome a little bit more great,
because I don't know if, 30years ago, if somebody had said
bisexuality, they would havelike what the reactions would
(41:23):
have been.
But that's what I see.
I see this openness, I see thiswillingness to this kind of
heightened focus on silence one,but then openness by uh, with
women too.
So that's what I would say.
I don't, but I don't know if Iwould say progression or none.
(41:44):
Uh, I think it's.
It's.
It's that itself, in and ofitself, feels like a binary um,
and I can say, yeah, spicedoesn't say scorn them anymore,
and Spice does a really greatjob, you know, posting queer
people on her Instagram andhiring queer people, but like
that's Spice, you know, and Ithink it becomes a little bit
(42:07):
individualistic.
Queen Africa is still banned insome countries, like you know,
so, and she's not all here,she's all here just being quiet.
Not that Queen Africa is adancehall artist, she's just the
person who came to my mindright now um, yeah, that's what
I think.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Robert, what are your thoughts on the work being done
?
I gotta.
I like that so much, I'm justgonna use it all the time work
is being done that's being doneit's been a question of.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
It came up in my meditation practice and now I'm
just like, oh, work is beingdone, um, all right, um, you
know, honestly, I'm I'm not sure.
I'm not sure, uh, because Ican't say, like music isn't my
space, like the, the music Ilisten to is, you know, here's
(42:58):
where I tap into the career ofuh granny identity.
So I uh, you know, take on theuh caribbean, like that's me, um
, so it's giving uh sitting onthe veranda making you a cup of
tea, you know, feeding you, andlistening to Grace thrillers and
(43:25):
like 80s, 90s reggae andlooking at the young people and
going, but dancehall music don'tsound too nice.
I mean, it's like I will likeenjoy it, it, but like I'm not
like in the dance hall world andbecause of like this, like uh
posh of care, that is thecaribbean granny identity, um
(43:48):
dance hall for me and likelooking at it, I feel like I'm
almost like experiencing it,because like dance hall is like
being produced in and likemarketed to people of like my
age and at the same time, I'msort of like sitting out,
removed from it, going.
I'm seeing some things inoperation here that I wish we
didn't do anymore and I don'twant to come across as like not
(44:13):
thinking that people deserve tohave their own expression and to
do whatever the hell it is thatthey want to do, as long as
they're not oppressing somebodyright to like.
Bring this into the diasporaoutside of the caribbean.
Right like kat williams has been, you know, going viral as of
late because of a comment thathe made on the like joe budden
(44:34):
podcast.
Right where he was like uh, ifyou uh can like make jokes, uh,
without sort of like usingspecific derogatory and
offensive language, then youwere never funny.
I believe it's possible for youto make really amazing music
and not oppress people at thesame time.
(44:54):
It's possible.
You just need to do the workright.
So Kadeem talks about like lazyjournalism.
I might apply the same thinkingto that and like songwriting
and performance, right when it'slike you can do some additional
work, some different work, tocontinue to produce something
that is good and doesn't oppresspeople.
That's my wish.
(45:15):
Right when we go back to howqueerness functions here, like
there is some futurity, there issome work, work that I don't
think in the sort of like directmusic industry I have anything
to say about.
I really don't.
People go listen to me and belike who the hell is Robert, who
the hell am I?
I don't know.
(45:36):
But what I am saying, though,though, is that, like there are
some societal things that I'mseeing manifesting in here that
like, if we will like shift ourlanguage, we as a society, as a
culture, as a people, would bein a better place.
(45:59):
A conversation with Kadima, Iwas like I don't think I'm here
to be like policing the wordsthat people use, right, because
when we're talking about few ortwo, I'm like listen, if you
want to use few or two, do whatyou want to do, I don't care.
I'm not going to sit here andlike beg you to shift it, but
what I will say is that, nowthat there is some additional
work being done, now there'ssome openness, I it's possible
maybe not right now, butpossible in the near future that
(46:22):
the lyrics will begin to shiftthe language, and that shift
will then happen both likeculturally and like
interpersonally, where moresongs might not use few, someone
might intentionally put the twoand like redress it, have it
show up differently, so thatpeople continue to practice
(46:45):
culturally the use of languagethat is open, that is affirming,
that is non-oppressive, thatallows people to live their
lives and to enjoy music,because that's why you're
producing the thing, aren't you?
aren't you aren't, you are youis.
Why are you doing this?
Why are you here?
(47:05):
What is your purpose in life?
Maybe the people need to go tomeditation retreat to start
asking themselves some deepquestions about why it is they
do the things that they do,having heard, but it is, uh, not
so great you know what I thinkthat's a great place to end.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
It brought us back full circle to the number and
and how we are are justexploring the, the identity
around it and and, in turn, ourown connection to, to the number
.
So thank you guys so much forjust joining me.
I have to really just thank youguys so much.
(47:43):
This was so much fun um Ireally love.
You know having these kinds ofconversations and you guys were
highly insightful as well asentertaining a little mess, like
you promised just a little,just a little twip, you know you
(48:04):
know, I mean, we do say mix upand blend exactly so, of course,
please share.
You know what you guys havecoming up as a team separately
um with stush and bush.
Of course you know we want tomake sure that we're
highlighting some of the storiesthat you guys have told and are
continuing to tell on yourplatform yeah, so, um, if you're
(48:30):
like we want more conversationwith you, we're out there on
instagram at stush and bush no dright s-t-u-s-h-a-n, because
you know that's the only way tospell an uh bush, b-u-s-h, um.
Speaker 2 (48:45):
And if you want to like, dm us there, that's cool.
I mean, if you want to email usand be like, well, I want to
continue the conversation.
We're truly open to also hop ona phone call, a zoom call.
Don't text me, because I don'tlike texting and like just talk,
because that's what we're hereto do.
We're here to talk and to thinkand to ask questions.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
Yeah, yeah, give us, give us a few days, our weeks in
advance, though, if you'retrying to do that, because you
know, we have to prepare, butalso you can just also just
follow us and reach out to us aswell.
Um, robert's at is queer.
(49:29):
We also do this every time.
Robert does the switch at whichpart and I do the the
individual handles.
Um, you can follow robert atqueer rib granny, obviously.
Q?
U e e, q?
U e e r I b g r a n n?
I e?
Uh, you can follow me at kadimk-h-a-d-i-e-m-e or at sketto
(49:50):
drinks.
Uh, which is like this coollittle home bartending thing I'm
doing because you know hobbies.
But yeah, and what you canexpect from us, I mean, we have
more episodes coming up wherewe're going to talk about a lot
of really cute things and havemore guests.
If this is the first timeyou're hearing about us, you're
lucky because we have fourseasons, four whole seasons of
(50:18):
content that will catch youright on up.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
Um, start from the top so you can see our natural
progression as well um, we alsohave a website, caribbeancom,
and there's like some coolresources there that sort of
like take it out of thepodcasting world and sort of
like.
In like the larger.
What is the theoretical thinggoing on in the background?
Speaker 3 (50:40):
and very interesting yeah, and obviously if you want
to donate, because why we neversaid that you can donate Venmo
cash up at Caribbean?
Thanks, please and thanksthanks, just in case, just in
case your pocket look full pridemonth black music history month
(51:04):
.
Come on, we did all three.
Today I'm going to switch offthe pride month one thank you
guys, I really enjoyed havingyou guys.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
It was such a pleasure.
Thank you again for sharingyour voices.
I appreciate it.
Thanks for listening to thelatest episode of the style and
vibes podcast.
If you like what you hear and Iknow you do share it with your
friends and family.
If you want more, make sure youvisit styleandvibescom and
follow us on our social channels, twitter and instagram at
styling vibes until next time.
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