June 23, 2025 • 51 mins
This is one of my lost episodes—an incredible deep-dive with writer-director Travis Malloy, known for the cult sci-fi hits Pandorum and Infinity Chamber. We explore how he went from indie shoots in Minneapolis to selling a film in Hollywood, building sets in his garage, and writing stories that studios actually wanted. Travis shares the gritty truth behind low-budget filmmaking, working without a script, and learning to trust his artistic gut. This one’s packed with hard-earned lessons every screenwriter and indie filmmaker should hear.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
Travis Malloy is the writer-director of Pandorum (starring Ben Foster and Dennis Quaid) and the mind behind the cult hit Infinity Chamber. With deep experience in both studio writing and garage-level indie filmmaking, Travis brings a rare and inspiring perspective to the craft.
About the Host:
With films on network television, streaming platforms, and in theaters, Geoffrey D. Calhoun is a screenwriter, author of The Guide for Every Screenwriter, and a passionate mentor in the industry. He hosts The Successful Screenwriter podcast to empower writers and filmmakers at every level. Resources Mentioned in the Episode:
#TheSuccessfulScreenwriter #TravisMalloy #Pandorum #InfinityChamber #IndieFilm #SciFiFilmmaking #ScreenwritingPodcast #DIYFilmmaking #GeoffreyDCalhoun
🎬 Get Free Script Leads — be the first to know which producers are requesting scripts and accepting submissions.
If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review, and subscribe. Share it with a fellow screenwriter who’d find it valuable!
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
- How Travis sold his first indie film and broke into the studio system
- The origin and evolution of Pandorum from a shelved idea
- How Infinity Chamber was made with no crew, no money—and a ton of grit
- The danger of chasing trends vs. writing what lights you up
- Why limitations can unlock creativity on a contained sci-fi film
- (01:01) From Minneapolis to Hollywood: Travis’s breakout moment
- (04:08) Turning a failed script into Pandorum
- (09:04) Building Infinity Chamber before writing it
- (20:26) Cutting a twist to strengthen emotional impact
- (35:34) Advice to indie filmmakers: stop waiting, start shooting
Travis Malloy is the writer-director of Pandorum (starring Ben Foster and Dennis Quaid) and the mind behind the cult hit Infinity Chamber. With deep experience in both studio writing and garage-level indie filmmaking, Travis brings a rare and inspiring perspective to the craft.
About the Host:
With films on network television, streaming platforms, and in theaters, Geoffrey D. Calhoun is a screenwriter, author of The Guide for Every Screenwriter, and a passionate mentor in the industry. He hosts The Successful Screenwriter podcast to empower writers and filmmakers at every level. Resources Mentioned in the Episode:
- Pandorum (2009)
- Infinity Chamber (2016)
- Podcast Website
- Instagram @screenwriterpod
- TikTok @screenwriterpod
#TheSuccessfulScreenwriter #TravisMalloy #Pandorum #InfinityChamber #IndieFilm #SciFiFilmmaking #ScreenwritingPodcast #DIYFilmmaking #GeoffreyDCalhoun
🎬 Get Free Script Leads — be the first to know which producers are requesting scripts and accepting submissions.
If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review, and subscribe. Share it with a fellow screenwriter who’d find it valuable!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Stuck in Act two, not sure if that twist actually works,
or maybe your characters are just fine. That's where virtual
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successful screen Edder, you've already got access. If not, it
(00:21):
might be time to level up. Writer and director Travis Maloy,
thanks for being on with us.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Thanks so much, Thanks for having me see you for
ship it.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Yeah, man, this is awesome. You've done some cool work.
You did Pandorm, which is like a sci fi space horror,
and I loved it. I thought it was great, had
Ben Foster in it, Dennis Quaid, great cast, really interesting film.
And then you did wrote and directed Infinity Chamber, which
is a contained sci fi thriller and I thought was
(00:51):
a lot of fun. Thank you, and we and we
did it film analysis on it, and then you found
found out about the film analysis and we got you
on the show, which is awesome.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah. Absolutely, you know. I'll tell you that it's interesting
because those two movies are complete opposite ends of the
spectrum for big budget studio films and the most in
your garage type no budget movie. So it's at least
I have. I think I have a pretty good perspective
(01:21):
on both ends of that spectrum, and working in the
bigger studio things and the very indie no budget movies
as well.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
I really want to dive into that. I want to
dive into your process of writing and directing before we
get into that though. With this show, we always like
to go into an origin story, So if you can
give us just kind of a brief way that you
kind of broke out and found success with pandorm or
sure where.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
He did absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
You know.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I grew up in Minnesota. I was in the independent
film world there in Minneapolis and working on films and
commercials and things like that. I work for Print at
Paisley Park, and I decided to make my own indie film.
This is back in the nineties, so I made this
two hundred thousand dollars action shoot him up film. It
(02:11):
wasn't a very good movie, but we accomplished what we
wanted to accomplish, and I took it to Hollywood and
sold it. It actually did pretty well, which got me
a pretty big agent at the time. So it was interesting.
I wanted to be a director, and he said, I
won't represent you as a director, but i'll represent you
(02:32):
as a writer. And I was like, well, I'm not
a writer, and he says, well you are now, and
I was like okay. So I kind of got thrown
into the Hollywood system and I've been and then I've
been working as a writer for years in the studio system.
It took me a long time to kind of figure
out the politics of it, to understand how that machine works.
(02:54):
But I was making a living, but nothing was getting produced.
It wasn't very satisfying to me to just be in
development and writing spec scripts and all that kind of stuff.
So I got a little anxious and I decided to
write my own script, just do my own thing, something
that no one was going to read. And that was Pandorm.
(03:16):
And it was an interesting learning experience because I finally
a big It was a big light bulb moment that
suddenly a script worked for the Hollywood machine, and I
realized that I was finally writing for myself. I was
finally writing something that I believed, and I was finally
writing a movie that I wanted to see. I wasn't
(03:37):
faking enthusiasm for another story or another project. So Pandorm
took off, and actually pretty quickly as far as industry
kind of standards go. So that movie then took off,
and then that got me a lot of work as
a writer, writing projects, fixing scripts, developing rips, and then
(04:01):
writing my own specscripts that were getting optioned and purchased.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
So that's that's kind of how it all how it
all started.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
You know. It's interesting. I've been there where you've optioned
the script and you and you you know, you get
that promise it's going to happen, and you get a
little bit of cash and then nothing happens, and it
is it is maddening because it's it's almost like you've
got the blank canvas, you buy all the paint, you
have the design in your mind of what you're going
to do, right, you just never put the paint onto canvas,
(04:30):
you know, and it's just like it's not done, but
you still you still sell it, you know, And that's
the crazy part. So I could totally understand your your
frustration there. And I was talking to Greg Hurwitz and
he said one he had this s piece of advice
of write what lights you up, and it sounds like
that's exactly what you did, and it's amazing that you
did that. You had this inspiration for Pandorm and then
(04:51):
it happened fast, which which can happen like good news
goes quickly, you can so with Pandorm, where did that
come from in your mind? Creatively? Because I think it's
a really cool take on the sci fi horror.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Thank you. Actually it's a it's an interesting story. Along
with that that notion of writing my own thing, that
that nobody, no, no agents or executives were going to
read this script. So I was a little more fearless
in my decisions. I wasn't worried about how someone would
accept the story or not. So I literally just wrote
(05:27):
my own story, and I was planning on doing it independently.
I was going to shoot it as a as a
low budget two hundred thousand dollars. We're going to shoot
it in the van and paper mill. We actually started
pre production, so I was going to do this very
small film with my roommates and all that kind of stuff.
And then my agent he asked what I was working on.
(05:47):
I said, well, I did this thing. I'm going to
go do this little movie on the side. And then
he read it and he said, whoa, whoa, wait a minute,
this is this is actually really good compared to all
your other stuff. I was like and I was like, well, yeah,
I appreciate it. And he started sending it out and
he said, listen, I've got some bigger players and interested
so stop doing what you're doing. And at that time
I was I was a little bit jaded, and I
(06:08):
was like, yeah, well, you keep doing what you're doing,
I'm gonna go make my little movie. And then so
I just kept kept going. He was like, all right, stop,
you have to stop what you're doing because the impact
and Constantine are interested and accept So anyway, but the
story itself, it was interesting. I was I was working
(06:30):
as a ground marshal at an airport when I was
in college, and the con airplane came in, the plane
that delivers past convicts. I started writing a script about
that plane being hijacked, and then con Air came out,
so then I was like, oh, okay. Well, so that
(06:53):
sat on the shelf for years and years and years,
and then I revisited. I thought, well, maybe I could
switch it, maybe I could go side with it. So
that's where it started. In the original script, it was
a prisonership, bringing fifty thousand of the world's worst people
to a to a prison on the planet. So that's
kind of how it evolved. But the one thing that
(07:14):
I think what was interesting about that process was I
decided to do something I didn't normally do before, is
that I wrote without a structure. I wrote without I
wrote without an outline. Yeah, I just did the page one,
have no idea where it's going to go. I wanted
to try to give it that that spontaneous, organic vibe.
So that's why I gave the lead character no memory,
(07:36):
so that I was on the same page as he
was going down those corridors, and I didn't know what
was around each corner. So it was a and you know,
and as you know, it's it's kind of a dangerous
way to write because you can always paint yourself into
a corner. But this one just seemed to work, and
I literally didn't know what was going to what was
going to happen at the end. I was literally like,
(07:58):
there's this scene where they get to the cockpit and
they finally look out the windows. We don't know where
the ship is I didn't know what to do, and
I stopped and I took the dog for a walk,
and I was thinking about outer space and where could
they be and all this stuff, and my dog was
drinking from a puddle in the street, and I thought, okay,
so that's about as opposite as that. Yeah, so I
(08:19):
put the ship underwater and it all worked.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
It's a great twist. It's a great twist. Actually, yeah,
well the thing about that twist made me want to
see more. I was like, Okay, now what happens to
them on the planet? Like I'm ready for the sequel?
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Like, I was like, yeah, that was really cool because
you have these monsters and then the evolutionary gene and maybe,
you know, maybe people are still corrupted. So I thought
it was really cool that you had created it that
way where I was like, oh, I wonder what happens next?
And so I really did know, I don't really I
really did like that. And you're right, it could totally
be dangerous to write that way, but obviously you had
(08:54):
the story burning in you. It needed to come out.
It came out the right lay, which is great. Yeah,
so we're so Infinity chamber. Yeah, where do we? Where
did that come from?
Speaker 2 (09:04):
You know what? That was? So after Pandorm, then I
got a lot of work as a writer, but I
was still that itch wasn't getting scratched. I wanted to
go get back into indie filmmaking right and I needed
to do something. I knew how. I just knew how
the machine worked. I'd seen enough projects go down that
path of trying to attach talent, trying to attack, you know,
(09:26):
putting all the players together for a package, and I
it's you know, I saw how frustrating that was. So
I decided, you know what I'm going to I'm going
to try to write the most self contained, easiest production
that I can. So that was that was the motivation.
And I put these restrictions on myself. I said, one actor,
one room, okay, go and I just dug into that.
(09:50):
So that was and I literally I was very motivated.
And you as you probably know, it's really easy to
procrastinate and filmmaking, you know, especially making an indie films
like ah next year, when the kids are at school,
when we have more money, when we have more this,
when we have more of that. Well I knew that
(10:11):
so well, so I decided to force my hand and
I rented an industrial space in San Fernando Valley and
I started building the set. Okay, and I figured that
after several months, after I've spent all this time and
energy and money, there's no going back. I'd be a
fool not to make the movie. So without a script,
without a cast, without a crew or any kind of money,
(10:33):
I just went over and I started building this set.
And it took me a year, working on the weekends
to actually put the set together. But by the end
of that year it was kind of like stone soup
because then my friends and my peers were all like,
what are you doing? And they stopped buying, like wait,
what are you doing? I was like, wow, I'm just
building a set and you know, I'm gonna shoot this movie.
(10:53):
And slowly everybody's like, well, hey, I got a guy.
I got this, this, this this, And by the end
of the year, by the time the set was built,
I had the financing and the cast and the crew.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Did you have the script done?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
No? I was writing it as you're building the set,
which helped because I was because I was in that space,
that was in that mindset. When I look back it
was like I spent as much time in that room
as the character did in the movie. So I think
it kind of worked creatively.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
That's that's pretty amazing. I mean, I love the film.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
I'm going to jump back on you just for a second.
So when you said initially with Pandorm, you had initially
written that Knair script and then you cannibalize parts of
that script and then created Pandorm, I've done that myself.
I've written like garbage scripts and then I said this
is terrible, but this is a cool scene or this
(11:47):
is a great character. And so I think cannibalizing the
script for any writers out there, is a great idea.
You don't just have to hold on to the holy grail.
You can cut it up, break it up, and steal
from it. So with absolutely, with Infinity Chamber, super low budget.
How long did it take you to make this film?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
You know? I don't know. Actually, when I think back,
I know we shot. I did was it was very unorthodox,
so we shot sections of it. We shot for a while,
then we stopped and then I edited and tried to
figure out what I needed, So we did it in
sections over. I don't know a year, Okay, a bigger
(12:29):
We did one big section that we stopped a few
months later. We shot for another week, and then I
saved sections of it till I was done with the edit,
the whole part with Fletcher coming in through the event,
because I was going to try to get a name
in that role since it was an easy something I
could do in one day. So that section was shot
(12:50):
a year later. So it was all kind of this
piecemealed thing that happened over a year.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
So Christy wanted me to ask you because she loved
the film too, and she's also a huge fan of Pandoram,
so she wanted me to ask you. Was the process
delayed over that year long sequence because of budget or
was were you trying to acquire more budget or was
it just working out the story?
Speaker 2 (13:18):
It was just well a couple of reasons. One, it
was kind of liberating creatively to not be locked into Okay,
you have twenty one days, get everything you need, and
then we're done. I was like, you know what I
want to Why does it have to be that way?
So I was like, I want to shoot for a
little while and then I want to The other thing
(13:39):
was that because me and my wife were doing everything.
We needed time to prep all that stuff, building all
the sets, building all the props. We were it so
I didn't I couldn't like tell a team, Okay, I
need this by Thursday. So we had to build all
that stuff. So we needed the time. But I think
it was a great experience creatively, not being under the gun.
(14:02):
Oh we're two days behind. We only have till five o'clock.
It was very relaxing, like it's okay, I'll just get that.
We'll do that next week.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Amazing. Yeah, So it frees you, It frees you up creatively.
It takes that that that time crunch pressure off and
then you just kind of sit there and you can
just kind of be in the environment and then allow
the environment to inform the script. Which absolutely that blows
my mind. That's a really it's a really cool approach.
I still can't believe that you and your life built
(14:31):
all that stuff. That just that blows my mind.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
The only the only obviously the problem with that is
you need you need a crew and cast that is
willing to do that process as well. Yeah, that's you know,
the fact that I had Chris Stelling was monumental to
be able to to stop and start, stop and start.
That's most actors would probably not be inted in that process.
(14:59):
But Chris, Chris was a huge Chris was actually the
person I knew him. I knew him before we met
in an audition for something else and I sat down
when I told him my idea and I was like,
you know, guy, this guy in an automated prison. And
he was like, let's do it. Let's do it. And
I was like, okay, okay, and then I just he
was the inspiration that got me started to go start
(15:22):
building the set, to start putting those pieces together. And
uh so that was that was a big thing. Having
the right people are.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
He's so great in that part.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Oh yeah, I knew I needed somebody that was because
he was going to his face was going to be
on the screen alone.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
That I needed somebody that was interesting to watch. And
I just think he carried it. Yeah, I mean it
sat on his shoulders. Absolutely. That is fantastic. So with with.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Your process, you had this this kind of creativity. Had
you been planning on having it kind of loop into
itself narrative where he's staring at the pictures on the wall,
he sees all of these different frame photos of places
he's visited, and then he visits the places in the
film and we start to learn, Okay, is he getting out?
(16:11):
Is he not getting out? I mean, that is such
a difficult narrative to weave, and I've watched people fail
at it, and it's just really cool to see how
you're able to kind of come up.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
With that, you know, it's interesting. The one thing I
think about that movie, I think it I credit it
to the pro the process that we did because originally,
going in, I don't think I really even knew the
theme of the story. Okay, while making the movie, and
(16:44):
I started with the very abc it was an escape movie.
It was a prison escape movie. That's about as deep
as Where I Go. And I knew that there would
be something more in there. I just didn't know what
it was. And it's I think that's interesting for filmmakers.
You don't necessarily need to know your theme when going in,
(17:05):
because I think it's a creative journey. While we were
making the movie, those things started to kind of pop up,
and then then the movie started to change. It was
actually literally once Chris started having conversations with Howard, I
was like, this is there's something interesting here, this something
(17:25):
interesting about being detached from other not having human contact,
and the only relationship you have is artificial, which I
think we live in a world now where all of
our communication is filtered through electronics, whether it's texting or
emailing or all that kind of stuff. So it's like,
so what happens to the human condition when you're cut
(17:45):
off like that? And so those things kind of grew
while we're making the movie. And the fact that he
has really two artificial relationships, yeah, one with Gabby, who
is a figment of his imagination created by the system,
and Howard and it's really the same relationship, but there's
a different agenda between them. So it's those things. Those
(18:09):
things kind of came to the service while we're making
them movie.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
I mean, just listening to you talk about it is awesome.
I mean because really, what you've done in your in
your process, for my interpretation, is you brought the art right.
Because screenwriting filmmaking there is a structure to it. It
can almost be like baking a cake. You know, you
have you have the recipe, push it in for twenty
(18:33):
one days and there you go right and you can
add some icing and special effects on top and make
it pretty. So there there is a lot of that there,
like structure is a thing. But it sounds like you
wanted to take a step back and just kind of
let that art flow through the script and discover the
story as the story is happening, which is one exceptionally
(18:54):
brave to be able to do foolish. There's the same
set of there's a level of hubris there right right,
but but then be able to do it and be
able to accomplish it and to discover the humanity through
the filmmaking process is awesome. I mean, it's brilliant because
it came through. I could tell like you found the humanity,
(19:15):
you found the theme, and then you leaned on the
theme and it showed out throughout the script. And I thought,
if if you didn't find that humanity, if you if
you weren't able to capture that, of course the film
would have suffered from it. But you're able to nail it.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, thank you, and you know, yeah absolutely. A couple
other things that I discovered along the way was originally
the Gabby character the barista and the coffee shop was
revealed as a villain. Well, I had I'd written it
where she confesses that that's the whole reason she's here
(19:51):
to get that piece of information from him. There's this
there was this big moment. But while we were filming it,
I had to change of heart about that. He's been
through and he's been through enough, and I I really
I think this is it's more interesting telling a story
about these very unusual relationships then just having this twist,
(20:13):
this villain twist. So I was like, I'm gonna leave
the villain very abstract. It's the is an, it's them,
it's someone that that's not really in the story. And
I thought that was more interesting. So that was a
big That was a change while we're filming.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
It was one hundred the right call because he needed
a grounding character, and that's again it was because he
didn't have one. Howard is not a grounding character. Howard
very much his SERPs the lead there. So I think
keeping Gabby that way and having her be almost a
romantic interest that he knows is a fakement, which is
which is awesome, was was perfect and I love that
(20:50):
that you kept it that way. It's a really good call. Yeah,
I don't want to just be throwing compliments. I'm just like,
it's just awesome listening to the process and be like, yeah, man,
I mean you avoided you avoided danger there.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Right right, you know what? And I mean another thing
was I didn't think Howard going in. I didn't think
Howard had as much value as then I kind of found, uh,
you know, talking to a computer voice is. You know,
we've seen it a million times. It's been done so well,
different ways and different films, alas the Marlon Brando of
(21:29):
you know, computer characters. So I knew, like, this is
nothing new. We've seen this before, and I didn't think
it would be that interesting. So but as the as
the movie, as we were shooting, I just found it interesting.
I just found it ironic and funny and whatever. But
the interesting thing was we didn't have Howard's voice while
(21:50):
we were filming. Okay, so I didn't know how that
was going to play, how well that was going to work,
and I knew it was important. So when we were
done filming, I did this. I looked for all these
different voice actors. I listened to all these different trying
to find Howard's voice, and I couldn't find it. And Jesse,
who does the voice of Howard. He was an actor
(22:12):
who was a friend of Chris, who was just providing
Howard's voice off camera, Oh, giving him something to react to. Yeah.
So I was editing Jesse's voice for so long and
I couldn't And I was like it was ironic because
I was like, this whole time, I'm looking for Howard.
He's there, He's right here. Because I was like, there
was something interesting about the way they they played off
(22:35):
of each other. So I just I used Jesse's voice.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
I mean, that's what a great performer does, though, right
takes that role and won't let you give it to
anybody else. I was like, exactly what he did.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yeah, and he was so cool, Yeah he was. So
I was like, would you be the voice?
Speaker 1 (22:49):
And he was like yeah, sure, it's no big deal,
of course.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
So I like that you eliminated a twist that didn't
need to be there, because I think a lot of
filmmakers and screenwriters hear the old adage, what's the twist,
what's the twist? Give me the twist, and so they'll
work in a twist that's totally unnecessary and can destroy
the film. It's good to surprise the audience. It's good
(23:19):
to keep them on their toes because we want to
keep them glued to the screen. But if you start
adding in twists to adding twists because you just think
it's a great idea, but it doesn't add any value
to the story or creating any development for their character,
you're going astray.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Absolutely if it's not sad, if it's not satisfying. But
if it yeah, there's a balance to it. But definitely
it's interesting. And I think that as as a writer,
and you know, I'm sure you know this as well.
It seems the more you write, the less you rely
on the gimmicks. At first, it's very gimmick heavy, like, oh,
(23:57):
I have this great shocker, and then I build the
script around that, you know, But then as you write
more and you learn more, it's like, it's really not
it's it's that story that's the most important, and if
the gimmick works and it serves that story, then great.
But there's too much time, too much energy spent on
the gimmick.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
I agree, I really, actually, I really agree with you
because for me that the thing that drives me crazy
is when somebody wakes up from a bad dream after
like thirty seconds like a big killer intro, you know, like,
oh this is coolni guy wakes up or a lady
like somebody's covered in sweat and you're going like, oh
my god, what's happening? Why are we doing this? You
(24:36):
know what I mean, like, you can't do that? You
know what.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I don't know anybody in real life that sits up
and goes yeah yeah, no never.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
I totally like what he was that yeah, yeah, So
you really beat the hell out of this guy. I mean,
this this central character, like you come for him. And
I remember I was watching it going because in the
structure that I preach, at the midpoint is when the
characters at their lowest and then they start to rebuild,
and then they have another moment right right in act
(25:10):
three where they're at their lowest again and then they succeed.
So and I was like, well, we definitely got to
be at the midpoint now. We just beat the hell
out of this guy to look at us like we're
only like thirty five minutes, and I'm like, oh my god,
this is like this guy's gone through it. So but
I thought that's great because it keeps you invested in
the character. I think it keeps the pressure going. Because
this is a contained film. We have like two sets
(25:32):
really if you like at or we have we have
the coffee shop and we have the prison. So I'm like,
I sat down to watch this knowing this going, Okay,
is this going to be boring because a lot of
situations you'll find like this, films that are done like this.
I've seen on like the indie film circuit. It's just
dialogue heavy and boring, right, But as soon as we
(25:55):
start to kind of lose a little bit of that steam,
there's a power shortage or he tries to escape, so
you keep that kind of that tension going and upping
those stakes a little bit. I thought that was like, yes,
this is a this is how you do a contained film.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Oh thank you, thank you so much. I appreciate that
because that was the biggest That was my biggest fear
that and going into it is how how are we
not going to get bored? And how to keep that
story going because you know, yeah, your feet go to
sleep after a certain point. So that was my challenge
was how to how to keep that going. So the
(26:38):
one thing for me was to me, it's it's a
self contained movie in disguise that, yes, so much, but
to let the movie breathe and to get out of it.
And that's why I put in the memory recall but
going to the coffee shop over and over and over,
and then he can start to manipulate that. That was like, okay,
(27:01):
that's my way out of the story. So we're not
in this room the entire time. And plus it was
a It was a budgetary decision because I could shoot
so much in one setup was using his wake up
routine and him going to the coffee shop over and
over and over, so I didn't have a lot of
different locations. I could use that Groundhog Day element to
(27:24):
get more bang for my buck while shooting. But that
was my biggest concern was the claustrophobic element of it
and boredom. And I was really concerned about that. And
I got to tell you just a quick story is
that when I edited the film, the first edit didn't work. Okay,
(27:46):
I went by the script. The script was a little
bit differently, and I edited the film and then I
was like, it just doesn't work. It's boring, it's too slow.
We got to get to this. How do we do this?
So then I changed the story structure in the edit, okay,
And then I did a second edit, and then I
over edited. Yeah you know, which happens because you're like, yeah,
(28:11):
my fear, my own insecurities were so that then the
second edit didn't work. So then I took a breather,
I sat back, and then I took from both of those,
like all right, and I did a third edit, and
that's the one that we have now. So like when
I look at it, I still have problems.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Of course, of course, because you're involved in it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yeah. The very first scene in the Cell is the
longest scene in the movie, and that drove me crazy,
like that's not the time to be stopping and taking
our time, and I just wanted to get the get it,
get things going quicker. But you need patience, you need
to have restraint, but you need to keep the story moving.
So that was that was a difficult juggling act for me.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
I think what works with the first act, if I
may please, oh please, what I think what works with
the first act is the you build the intrigue, right,
So what I find with sci fi films particularly is
sci fi films will grab you early with the world. Okay,
and then if they work well at their structure world,
(29:17):
they keep you with the humanity, right, So, like really
bad sci fi, you start to lose the audience in
act too, because then it just becomes spectacle spectacle, spectacle,
Look how great this world is. That's one of the
reasons why AI didn't work so well. But with this,
you know, I have the intrigue. Okay, he's in the prison.
(29:39):
That's crazy. There's this weird robot. But maybe it's not
a robot, because we see a scene of a control
station where there might be somebody controlling Howard, so maybe
it is a guy. So then you build in the
intrigues so you're like, oh, okay, this is interesting, and
then that keeps you and then we get into the
humanity in act too, and then the movie is gets
(30:00):
better and better. So I think I think that really works.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Thank you, Thanks, I appreciate it. You know, it's funny.
I got a lot of fans that asked me, that
challenged me on that that shot of the control room
and hearing Howard's voice unfiltered. Yeah, so it's interesting. I
that's exactly why I did it, to try to keep
that O a minute, Is this a real guy or or.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Is it not? So you have you have fans that
what are they? What are they challenging you on?
Speaker 2 (30:30):
That that was a cheap shot?
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Oh is that what?
Speaker 2 (30:32):
They say?
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Yeah, it's filmmaking.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yeah yeah, yeah. They're like, well, which is fine a challenge,
but it's like, that's that's not fair. You can't do that,
and and and they're like, what did you what did
you what did you mean by that? Because we heard
fingers on a keyboard and we heard Howard and I said, well,
here's my thought on it. That there was a guy
who was sitting there, but that he doesn't provide Howard's voice.
(30:57):
That's a program. You were in it unfiltered in the
drow room. There was a guy working until the base
was evacuated. And they're like, oh, okay, okay, that's still
a cheap shot.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
It's not I love that you have fans invested enough
that they get emotionally upset about it, because that's how
much they liked the film. And I think that love.
If a fan can come up to you and have
that kind of an argument they've invested in it, that's
a good thing. If somebody doesn't somebody doesn't like a property.
They don't like a film, then then their response is apathy.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, I love it. I've gotten into the
biggest one is the ending, and I've I've gone off
the ending. Oh yeah, yeah, no, the and this it
did exactly what I wanted it to do.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
It created a discussion, It created questions and gave answers.
It let people decipher for themselves what that ending would be.
And I really wanted to do that. I wanted to
give in long story short. And it's funny because like
all my friends and family, they we completely like different things,
different kinds of movies, happy endings, yeah, a darker stuff, whatever.
(32:09):
And I remember I had a movie experience where I
went with friends and family and everyone had a different
reaction to the movie, and I thought, of course, is
there a way too, Is there a way to make
everybody happy here in a way that we can both
enjoy it? Because I have a version of the ending
of Infinny Chamber, my wife has a version. Everyone has
a different take on what that ending meant, and I
(32:31):
I was trying to do that, but I thought it
was am I gonna get blasted for that?
Speaker 1 (32:37):
It's so high risk, dude? Yeah, again Hoover's comes into
play here was. I watched that ango he did it right,
but it could have gone south so fast, like oh
oh man, yeah, because I've seen it. I've seen I've
seen the film where they do that and they have
the the unknown ending right, yes, but it's mostly because
(32:58):
the filmmaker couldn't commit right or they're just trying to
be overly artistic and and and that doesn't sell either, right.
But you had a goal for it. It was how
do I make an ending that the answer is yes
and and that's and that's what you did. I don't
so awesome, very good.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Oh thank you. I really appreciate it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeah, all right, So you've been you've been doing this
for a while, and what kind of we we've been
already talked about. What kind of advice do you have
for indie writers out there, indie filmmakers out there that
that have seen your stuff or or are motivated to
get out there and really like try and make this
(33:43):
thing happen.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Yeah, I think right now it's such it's such an
exciting time to be a filmmaker. I don't think there's
ever been another time like it. Okay, I really don't
because of the technology and the software is accessible anyone.
I mean, you can make a movie with your phone.
You can make a movie with everything you can fit
(34:05):
into a backpack, and I don't think we've been there before.
It's so it's easy technically to make a movie. It's
difficult with all the other logistics and creatively, So my
biggest advice is to make a movie and maybe you
have ten dollars or you have one thousand dollars, regardless,
(34:28):
you're you're making something, and every time you make another one,
it's gonna improve and you're gonna learn along the way.
So that whole hesitation of yeah, well I need a star,
I need a budget, I need this, I need this,
I need this, well, sure, but ninety nine point nine
percent of the time you're gonna be waiting forever to
(34:49):
have those moons aligned, so to me. But and then
also just creatively, my biggest advice is you can't chase trends.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Yeah. I totally agree with that.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Yeah, I think that's the biggest mistake most of the
time is people are trying to write what's popular, and
we know that two years from now it's all going
to be different, and by the time your project actually
makes it through the machine, that's going to be gone
so or recycled, or you got to wait for the
next cycle and stuff like that. So that's my biggest
thing is don't worry about trends at all. Doesn't matter
(35:25):
if Westerns or vampires or whatever's popular at the moment.
Write what's in your heart, right, what you believe in, right,
the movie you want to see. That's the biggest thing.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
You know. It's interesting because I equate it to having kids.
I know, just follow me for a second. All right, No,
I'd gone off and going off here. So you know,
you're never ready to have a kid. And you say, well,
I want to wait till I have the house. So
I want to wait till we have enough money. I
want to wait till the house is done. I want
(35:54):
to wait. You know, you just keep putting it off,
and really it's just a fear thing, and eventually you
just have to tell yourself you are never ready to
have a kid. It's going to be pure chaos and
the worst best thing of your life. And and so
then you just have to do it. And I think
this is the same thing personally.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Absolutely, that's a great analogy. That's about the best analogy ever.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
There really is best thing.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Because there's no good time. There's no good time to
have a kid or make a movie. That's why you know,
you just got to go into it.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Have to. Yeah, you just have to do it. And
with uh, with what what do we have coming out
right now? Do you have anything coming up? You're working
on stuff?
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Yeah, I'm well, you know, I'm I I kind of
have my two worlds. I work as a writer for
other for other companies and studios and whatever. So I
have a handful of projects that are all in that
pre pre production phase that will hopefully happen. But and
then I'm also working on my next indie little passion
project out of the garage type movie.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
So like another indie you own with another indie kind
of production. Yeah, letting letting the art fail you.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Absolutely, And actually I'm even trying to. I'm even taking
that a step further of shooting along the way of
going out and shooting for two three days and then
editing and looking at it and thinking about it and
then okay, we're gonna go shooting again. I'm gonna just
I'm just gonna continue that process and when you're not
spending money. There's no you know, there's no danger in
(37:38):
that really other than people's time and energy. But the
people that I work with are so passionate about it,
and so I'm motivated to absolutely like I'll call you
at two in the morning. You want to go shoot, Yeah,
let's go do it.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
It's amazing. So you really have a great network around
you on top of the fact they have a pretty
awesome wife who's willing to go out and build a
set with you for like a year straight that you
got to get frovs.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
So on top of that, it sounds like you're going
out your filmmaking and you're and you're creating this network
on top of it, and so what's the worst that
can come from that? You know, if you're going on,
you're putting the effort out there and then you're just
having fun with it, dude, and like, oh man, yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
That's it's a ball. I'll tell you that that that's
my thing. And in fact, I'm doing test shots right
now for the next movie. But getting up being in
the middle of the night and going downtown l A
and driving around by myself getting this getting the play
shots getting the b roll doing all this stuff. That's
you know, three in the morning, downtown l A by
myself with a camera. I absolutely love it.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
So you were you getting cool stuff during COVID then
when the streets.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
Yes, yeah, absolutely that was. I did go out and
shoot quite a bit because I thought, well, if I
need some empty city street apocalyptic, yeah for sure. But
of course now it's so easy to do that, to
do that kind of stuff from post but of course regardless, Yeah, yeah, wow.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Well, Travis, I got to tell you thanks so much
for coming on the show. Oh absolutely, I appreciate your
time and and and can't wait to find out what
your next project is.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Thank you, and thanks so much for having me. I
really appreciate it. It's interesting Infinny Chamber had like the
second wave of activity, you know, because again about twenty
eighteen on Netflix and it did, you know, it did well,
and then and then all of a sudden, there's all
it started making all these top ten lists, and like
(39:39):
just in the last few months, all of a sudden,
there's another resurgence of it. I don't know if people
found it during the pandemic or what, but all of
a sudden there's another wave of activity with it.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Well, what I find, what I find with good films
is they're going to find they're going to find their
fan base, they're going to find their tribe, whether whether
it's right away or whether it's it's down the line.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
So I'm not surprised at all. And I think that
it's a testament to what you've done. And I have
to be honest with your process of really finding the
art and then working that into the story and finding
the humanity story. It sounds like a lot of fun.
It sounds incredibly difficult to pull off. And I'm really
excited that this is something that you were able to
(40:20):
do because there's there now that's an option for other
younger filmmakers out there, they're like, Okay, maybe I can
try this. I can go build this set and see
just make the story and see what comes out.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Yeah. Absolutely, And and you know, and just adding to
that is embracing, embracing the flaws and the mistakes and
the hardships. Like to me, that's all part of the process,
and it can push you in a more creative direction
because you don't you can't get that location, then you're
creatively forced to come up with an alternative and then
(40:52):
what's magical is when that's better than what you were originally.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Well, yeah, I love that. When I come on to
a gig and they give me all of these parameters
and they kind of narrow me in at what I
can't do, it lights my mind on fire because like,
I love that kind of a challenge. I've seen other
writers kind of cripple from that, and I'm like, Okay,
so it only has to be one room. It only
has to be it can only be you know, one
(41:17):
guy in a robot, let me get it. I want
to do that, you know, like that sounds awesome and
that's and that's kind of like why I know what
I'm supposed to do, because you want to be challenged
creatively to really find that that like special key to
the script or the story.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Absolutely, you know, sorry you got me rolling now. But
I love the self contained thing, which is really hot.
Which is interesting because I wrote a lot of self
contained scripts over the last few years and suddenly there's
been a lot of interesting in them because of the pandemic,
Like all of a sudden, Yeah, there's more interested in that.
But what I love, I love being challenged to the
(41:53):
self contained thing. In my mind, I think it's not
just it's not geog that's that's making the story work.
I think, Okay, if we're in one room, then one
area is the kitchen, one area is over here by
the window instead of the gas station, the hotel, the whatever.
(42:16):
That's your world in there, and those are your different things,
but the story stays the same. You're just not you're
not changing geography. So I love that challenge.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
I can. I totally agree that. And one thing I've
noticed that that you you used it a little bit.
And in Pandorm and I saw an infinity chamber was
a claustrophobic feeling. There's a couple of scenes in Pandorum
where Ben Foster's climbing through a vent and I felt
physically uncomfortable. Oh yeah, and then we have an infinity
(42:46):
chamber the same thing where he's he's he's losing his
mind right, and he's going kind of crazy. He's pacing
back and forth to treadmill is and't doing his job,
you know. And so I was like, that is another
great thing to play with with contained because I've noticed that,
like everybody's a little claustrophobic. I think, especially as you
(43:07):
get older, you start liking tighter spaces less and less,
you know, because like the coffin is around the corner,
you know what I mean. Like when you're a kid,
you're hanging out in tiny huts and forts and whatnot.
You don't you don't care. The world is your oyster.
Buta you get older and like, I just think I
need the bedroom door open now, Like.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
You know, that's true. And that was one of the
when writing Pandoram, I was like, I'm going to try
to make the scariest thing in Claustrophobia was one of
my big ones. So that was It's funny if you
mentioned that scene because that was, Yeah, that's my worst
nightmare is going down that comes to.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
A dead end, but like the cables and everything, and yeah,
my camera was coming in h so cool.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
The other thing too, is just sorry. The last thing
as the like infinity chamber. It was driven by easiest
thing that I could do. One guy in a room,
giving them, giving the character a means of communication. That's easy,
that's cheap to shoot his discussions with a security camera.
(44:15):
So I've created a character without having another actor, And
it's like, so a lot of the stuff that I'm
writing relies on Okay, it's somebody on a phone, or
it's somebody talking through event, or it's someone top you know,
talking to characters that are hidden or behind devices or whatever.
(44:35):
But so that's that was a big push of how
can I have more characters in my story without having
another actor? So that was that was a big motivation.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
That's a really great idea. Well, and the thing about
Howard was fun because you start to realize he's speaking
from a dialogue tree, oh right, right, And the consistency
there made it a lot of fun because you expect
what he's going to say. But then the ca character
is so smart that he can talk around Howard and
start making him second guess his own dialogue tree, which
(45:07):
weirdly added a bit of humanity to the computer, which
I thought was interesting. Now, the other character that he
runs into I would call a mentor character, a mentor
arch type. Sure, I can't remember his name, but Fletcher, Yeah,
on the other side of the wall, where he starts
(45:27):
out as a really strong character and thematically is still
there as well. But what I like is that you
show what will happen to a character if he can't
get out and he kills himself. And I was like,
that is one hundred percent what our central character needed
to see. You know, if he just stayed there and
(45:48):
was alive and was a support structure, it would have
really hurt the film. But from what I understood in
the show notes, you shot them at separate times. They
never actually played off of each other.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Right, Yeah, they still haven't met, Are you serious? Yeah? Yeah,
they've talked on the phone, but they've never met in person.
See now, that and I saved that role. I knew
I could shoot that role anywhere. We only saw him
through the event, so we actually we shot that in
my living room because the set the set was gone
(46:20):
because I only had the space. I only rented the
space for whatever. So I knew I could shoot that anywhere.
And actually I purposely made it that way so if
I got a name actor, I could literally go to
their house and set that up in their garage and
they could shoot it all in one day.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
So I rolled that way. That is some movie making magic.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Well thanks, and logistically it just didn't work, uh, you know,
we didn't have no money, so it just didn't work
to have a name. But Kajardo. I knew Kajardo, and
he was just fantastic. I mean, I'm so glad it
worked out the way it did. But yeah, so we
were shooting those two parts a year apart in different locations.
(47:01):
I was surprised. I was really worried it wouldn't work,
but that there there, you know that.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
No, it worked, it worked. I I no, I have
to pry.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
How much of your house did you use for this film?
Speaker 2 (47:16):
Uh? A lot?
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Really?
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Oh yeah, everything everything but the coffee shop we were
the it.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Was the the control station.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
No, that actually that was the back room of the
production company where we rented our equipment where he did
the whole escape and he came out and went up
the ladder. That was at the place where we rented
our gear. So we're like, can we shoot figure?
Speaker 1 (47:39):
That's so awesome.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
And the control room, yeah, that was and I was like,
can we shoot in there?
Speaker 3 (47:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (47:47):
Okay, And we like threw together some monitors and whatever.
So it was but like, yeah, the the hospital room,
his apartment back room almost.
Speaker 1 (47:58):
Had a hospital room in your house.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
Well, there's that one close up shot of the old
man laying on life support, right, So he was just
laying on the kitchen table and we just put a
white plastic thing behind him.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Oh my god, dude, I would have never saw that.
That's well, are you serious?
Speaker 2 (48:15):
For the indie filmmakers out there, there's so many, like
all the little all the little b roll shots, like
of the like the laser and like all those little
things I did on the I did on the kitchen
table after we were done all those little inserts, and man,
I I tell you, I went I needed these city shots,
(48:37):
like all the city shots. I would go out every
night for weeks to try to get the perfect b
roll shot of city. So I was driving around downtown
l A. I broke up a drug deal one time.
I came around a corner and these guys up running.
And there's one shot in the movie where a train
goes by, right, and it's the funny story about that
(48:57):
is I needed a shot of the of the train
coming up with a sitting in the background. I drove
all around La I come, and then I finally found.
I was like, oh, here it is. So I set
up the camera. I put on the ground, Oh train's coming.
I'm like, oh cool, And the guy stopped the train
to yell at me, and he opened the window and
he's like, what are you doing? Because you're way too
close to the tracks. I'm calling the police. I'm like,
I'm sorry, I'm just trying to get a shot. I'm
(49:19):
just trying to He goes, You're way too close to
the tracks. And I was like, and all the commuters,
all these people going to work are all like, man, well,
they're all looking at me, Like was he on? I
didn't know we could stop the train like that. Anyway,
he drove away and I was like wow. And then
I was about to move the camera and I saw
another train coming, so I just turned it on and
walked away, and then the train went by, and that's
(49:39):
the shot that's in the movie.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
Oh wow, Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
And all right, So some people I read some I
did some digging. Some people think the old man is
him right? Is that you're going for that?
Speaker 2 (49:57):
Or well I've had that discussion that the different multiple
endings and what it means and all that kind of stuff.
And when they say here's what I think. I think
he's the old man on life support and it's his
own internal battle of a machine keeping him alive and whatever.
And I say yes absolutely.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
And then you drop a mic and walk away.
Speaker 2 (50:21):
But that's what I intended. I was like, I wanted
people to take the movie how and I left it
and I did clues where all three versions are viable, dude,
and then you can challenge them to me, well, yeah
I had, Yeah, I have my version, but and there's
very specific clues that point to that. But then someone
(50:43):
can argue and say, yeah, but this, this, this, and
I'm like, you're right, you're right.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
I kind of don't want I kind of don't want
your version because it's.
Speaker 2 (50:51):
Going to spoil it.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
It's going to spoil my version. And I know people
are going to get mad at me for not pushing
on that getting it from you. Oh sure, I'm going
to respectfully not push on that.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
Hey, that's great to me. To me, it's a happy
ending regardless there, even though even though.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
You're literally doing it right now trapping.
Speaker 2 (51:11):
Sorry sorry sorry.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
That awesome. Oh dude, You've been such a pleasure to
be on the show man. I really appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (51:19):
Thanks, I appreciate it. Love being on here.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
I can talk script man, we can go all week. Yeah,
you know, talking script absolutely. I just absolutely love it.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
Hey, if this episode helped you out, share it with
a writer who needs it. And if you haven't yet,
hit follow and leave a quick rating. It helps more
screenwriters like you find the show. Finally, you can also
connect with me on Instagram at screenwriter Pod. Thanks again
for listening, Keep writing,
Stuck in Act two, not sure if that twist actually works,
or maybe your characters are just fine. That's where virtual
Jeffrey comes in. He's a screenwriting assistant we've trained to
help you workshop scenes, fixed pacing, punch up dialogue, or
just get on stuck. If you're a member of the
successful screen Edder, you've already got access. If not, it
(00:21):
might be time to level up. Writer and director Travis Maloy,
thanks for being on with us.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Thanks so much, Thanks for having me see you for
ship it.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Yeah, man, this is awesome. You've done some cool work.
You did Pandorm, which is like a sci fi space horror,
and I loved it. I thought it was great, had
Ben Foster in it, Dennis Quaid, great cast, really interesting film.
And then you did wrote and directed Infinity Chamber, which
is a contained sci fi thriller and I thought was
(00:51):
a lot of fun. Thank you, and we and we
did it film analysis on it, and then you found
found out about the film analysis and we got you
on the show, which is awesome.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah. Absolutely, you know. I'll tell you that it's interesting
because those two movies are complete opposite ends of the
spectrum for big budget studio films and the most in
your garage type no budget movie. So it's at least
I have. I think I have a pretty good perspective
(01:21):
on both ends of that spectrum, and working in the
bigger studio things and the very indie no budget movies
as well.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
I really want to dive into that. I want to
dive into your process of writing and directing before we
get into that though. With this show, we always like
to go into an origin story, So if you can
give us just kind of a brief way that you
kind of broke out and found success with pandorm or
sure where.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
He did absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
You know.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I grew up in Minnesota. I was in the independent
film world there in Minneapolis and working on films and
commercials and things like that. I work for Print at
Paisley Park, and I decided to make my own indie film.
This is back in the nineties, so I made this
two hundred thousand dollars action shoot him up film. It
(02:11):
wasn't a very good movie, but we accomplished what we
wanted to accomplish, and I took it to Hollywood and
sold it. It actually did pretty well, which got me
a pretty big agent at the time. So it was interesting.
I wanted to be a director, and he said, I
won't represent you as a director, but i'll represent you
(02:32):
as a writer. And I was like, well, I'm not
a writer, and he says, well you are now, and
I was like okay. So I kind of got thrown
into the Hollywood system and I've been and then I've
been working as a writer for years in the studio system.
It took me a long time to kind of figure
out the politics of it, to understand how that machine works.
(02:54):
But I was making a living, but nothing was getting produced.
It wasn't very satisfying to me to just be in
development and writing spec scripts and all that kind of stuff.
So I got a little anxious and I decided to
write my own script, just do my own thing, something
that no one was going to read. And that was Pandorm.
(03:16):
And it was an interesting learning experience because I finally
a big It was a big light bulb moment that
suddenly a script worked for the Hollywood machine, and I
realized that I was finally writing for myself. I was
finally writing something that I believed, and I was finally
writing a movie that I wanted to see. I wasn't
(03:37):
faking enthusiasm for another story or another project. So Pandorm
took off, and actually pretty quickly as far as industry
kind of standards go. So that movie then took off,
and then that got me a lot of work as
a writer, writing projects, fixing scripts, developing rips, and then
(04:01):
writing my own specscripts that were getting optioned and purchased.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
So that's that's kind of how it all how it
all started.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
You know. It's interesting. I've been there where you've optioned
the script and you and you you know, you get
that promise it's going to happen, and you get a
little bit of cash and then nothing happens, and it
is it is maddening because it's it's almost like you've
got the blank canvas, you buy all the paint, you
have the design in your mind of what you're going
to do, right, you just never put the paint onto canvas,
(04:30):
you know, and it's just like it's not done, but
you still you still sell it, you know, And that's
the crazy part. So I could totally understand your your
frustration there. And I was talking to Greg Hurwitz and
he said one he had this s piece of advice
of write what lights you up, and it sounds like
that's exactly what you did, and it's amazing that you
did that. You had this inspiration for Pandorm and then
(04:51):
it happened fast, which which can happen like good news
goes quickly, you can so with Pandorm, where did that
come from in your mind? Creatively? Because I think it's
a really cool take on the sci fi horror.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Thank you. Actually it's a it's an interesting story. Along
with that that notion of writing my own thing, that
that nobody, no, no agents or executives were going to
read this script. So I was a little more fearless
in my decisions. I wasn't worried about how someone would
accept the story or not. So I literally just wrote
(05:27):
my own story, and I was planning on doing it independently.
I was going to shoot it as a as a
low budget two hundred thousand dollars. We're going to shoot
it in the van and paper mill. We actually started
pre production, so I was going to do this very
small film with my roommates and all that kind of stuff.
And then my agent he asked what I was working on.
(05:47):
I said, well, I did this thing. I'm going to
go do this little movie on the side. And then
he read it and he said, whoa, whoa, wait a minute,
this is this is actually really good compared to all
your other stuff. I was like and I was like, well, yeah,
I appreciate it. And he started sending it out and
he said, listen, I've got some bigger players and interested
so stop doing what you're doing. And at that time
I was I was a little bit jaded, and I
(06:08):
was like, yeah, well, you keep doing what you're doing,
I'm gonna go make my little movie. And then so
I just kept kept going. He was like, all right, stop,
you have to stop what you're doing because the impact
and Constantine are interested and accept So anyway, but the
story itself, it was interesting. I was I was working
(06:30):
as a ground marshal at an airport when I was
in college, and the con airplane came in, the plane
that delivers past convicts. I started writing a script about
that plane being hijacked, and then con Air came out,
so then I was like, oh, okay. Well, so that
(06:53):
sat on the shelf for years and years and years,
and then I revisited. I thought, well, maybe I could
switch it, maybe I could go side with it. So
that's where it started. In the original script, it was
a prisonership, bringing fifty thousand of the world's worst people
to a to a prison on the planet. So that's
kind of how it evolved. But the one thing that
(07:14):
I think what was interesting about that process was I
decided to do something I didn't normally do before, is
that I wrote without a structure. I wrote without I
wrote without an outline. Yeah, I just did the page one,
have no idea where it's going to go. I wanted
to try to give it that that spontaneous, organic vibe.
So that's why I gave the lead character no memory,
(07:36):
so that I was on the same page as he
was going down those corridors, and I didn't know what
was around each corner. So it was a and you know,
and as you know, it's it's kind of a dangerous
way to write because you can always paint yourself into
a corner. But this one just seemed to work, and
I literally didn't know what was going to what was
going to happen at the end. I was literally like,
(07:58):
there's this scene where they get to the cockpit and
they finally look out the windows. We don't know where
the ship is I didn't know what to do, and
I stopped and I took the dog for a walk,
and I was thinking about outer space and where could
they be and all this stuff, and my dog was
drinking from a puddle in the street, and I thought, okay,
so that's about as opposite as that. Yeah, so I
(08:19):
put the ship underwater and it all worked.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
It's a great twist. It's a great twist. Actually, yeah,
well the thing about that twist made me want to
see more. I was like, Okay, now what happens to
them on the planet? Like I'm ready for the sequel?
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Like, I was like, yeah, that was really cool because
you have these monsters and then the evolutionary gene and maybe,
you know, maybe people are still corrupted. So I thought
it was really cool that you had created it that
way where I was like, oh, I wonder what happens next?
And so I really did know, I don't really I
really did like that. And you're right, it could totally
be dangerous to write that way, but obviously you had
(08:54):
the story burning in you. It needed to come out.
It came out the right lay, which is great. Yeah,
so we're so Infinity chamber. Yeah, where do we? Where
did that come from?
Speaker 2 (09:04):
You know what? That was? So after Pandorm, then I
got a lot of work as a writer, but I
was still that itch wasn't getting scratched. I wanted to
go get back into indie filmmaking right and I needed
to do something. I knew how. I just knew how
the machine worked. I'd seen enough projects go down that
path of trying to attach talent, trying to attack, you know,
(09:26):
putting all the players together for a package, and I
it's you know, I saw how frustrating that was. So
I decided, you know what I'm going to I'm going
to try to write the most self contained, easiest production
that I can. So that was that was the motivation.
And I put these restrictions on myself. I said, one actor,
one room, okay, go and I just dug into that.
(09:50):
So that was and I literally I was very motivated.
And you as you probably know, it's really easy to
procrastinate and filmmaking, you know, especially making an indie films
like ah next year, when the kids are at school,
when we have more money, when we have more this,
when we have more of that. Well I knew that
(10:11):
so well, so I decided to force my hand and
I rented an industrial space in San Fernando Valley and
I started building the set. Okay, and I figured that
after several months, after I've spent all this time and
energy and money, there's no going back. I'd be a
fool not to make the movie. So without a script,
without a cast, without a crew or any kind of money,
(10:33):
I just went over and I started building this set.
And it took me a year, working on the weekends
to actually put the set together. But by the end
of that year it was kind of like stone soup
because then my friends and my peers were all like,
what are you doing? And they stopped buying, like wait,
what are you doing? I was like, wow, I'm just
building a set and you know, I'm gonna shoot this movie.
(10:53):
And slowly everybody's like, well, hey, I got a guy.
I got this, this, this this, And by the end
of the year, by the time the set was built,
I had the financing and the cast and the crew.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Did you have the script done?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
No? I was writing it as you're building the set,
which helped because I was because I was in that space,
that was in that mindset. When I look back it
was like I spent as much time in that room
as the character did in the movie. So I think
it kind of worked creatively.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
That's that's pretty amazing. I mean, I love the film.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
I'm going to jump back on you just for a second.
So when you said initially with Pandorm, you had initially
written that Knair script and then you cannibalize parts of
that script and then created Pandorm, I've done that myself.
I've written like garbage scripts and then I said this
is terrible, but this is a cool scene or this
(11:47):
is a great character. And so I think cannibalizing the
script for any writers out there, is a great idea.
You don't just have to hold on to the holy grail.
You can cut it up, break it up, and steal
from it. So with absolutely, with Infinity Chamber, super low budget.
How long did it take you to make this film?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
You know? I don't know. Actually, when I think back,
I know we shot. I did was it was very unorthodox,
so we shot sections of it. We shot for a while,
then we stopped and then I edited and tried to
figure out what I needed, So we did it in
sections over. I don't know a year, Okay, a bigger
(12:29):
We did one big section that we stopped a few
months later. We shot for another week, and then I
saved sections of it till I was done with the edit,
the whole part with Fletcher coming in through the event,
because I was going to try to get a name
in that role since it was an easy something I
could do in one day. So that section was shot
(12:50):
a year later. So it was all kind of this
piecemealed thing that happened over a year.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
So Christy wanted me to ask you because she loved
the film too, and she's also a huge fan of Pandoram,
so she wanted me to ask you. Was the process
delayed over that year long sequence because of budget or
was were you trying to acquire more budget or was
it just working out the story?
Speaker 2 (13:18):
It was just well a couple of reasons. One, it
was kind of liberating creatively to not be locked into Okay,
you have twenty one days, get everything you need, and
then we're done. I was like, you know what I
want to Why does it have to be that way?
So I was like, I want to shoot for a
little while and then I want to The other thing
(13:39):
was that because me and my wife were doing everything.
We needed time to prep all that stuff, building all
the sets, building all the props. We were it so
I didn't I couldn't like tell a team, Okay, I
need this by Thursday. So we had to build all
that stuff. So we needed the time. But I think
it was a great experience creatively, not being under the gun.
(14:02):
Oh we're two days behind. We only have till five o'clock.
It was very relaxing, like it's okay, I'll just get that.
We'll do that next week.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Amazing. Yeah, So it frees you, It frees you up creatively.
It takes that that that time crunch pressure off and
then you just kind of sit there and you can
just kind of be in the environment and then allow
the environment to inform the script. Which absolutely that blows
my mind. That's a really it's a really cool approach.
I still can't believe that you and your life built
(14:31):
all that stuff. That just that blows my mind.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
The only the only obviously the problem with that is
you need you need a crew and cast that is
willing to do that process as well. Yeah, that's you know,
the fact that I had Chris Stelling was monumental to
be able to to stop and start, stop and start.
That's most actors would probably not be inted in that process.
(14:59):
But Chris, Chris was a huge Chris was actually the
person I knew him. I knew him before we met
in an audition for something else and I sat down
when I told him my idea and I was like,
you know, guy, this guy in an automated prison. And
he was like, let's do it. Let's do it. And
I was like, okay, okay, and then I just he
was the inspiration that got me started to go start
(15:22):
building the set, to start putting those pieces together. And
uh so that was that was a big thing. Having
the right people are.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
He's so great in that part.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Oh yeah, I knew I needed somebody that was because
he was going to his face was going to be
on the screen alone.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
That I needed somebody that was interesting to watch. And
I just think he carried it. Yeah, I mean it
sat on his shoulders. Absolutely. That is fantastic. So with with.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Your process, you had this this kind of creativity. Had
you been planning on having it kind of loop into
itself narrative where he's staring at the pictures on the wall,
he sees all of these different frame photos of places
he's visited, and then he visits the places in the
film and we start to learn, Okay, is he getting out?
(16:11):
Is he not getting out? I mean, that is such
a difficult narrative to weave, and I've watched people fail
at it, and it's just really cool to see how
you're able to kind of come up.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
With that, you know, it's interesting. The one thing I
think about that movie, I think it I credit it
to the pro the process that we did because originally,
going in, I don't think I really even knew the
theme of the story. Okay, while making the movie, and
(16:44):
I started with the very abc it was an escape movie.
It was a prison escape movie. That's about as deep
as Where I Go. And I knew that there would
be something more in there. I just didn't know what
it was. And it's I think that's interesting for filmmakers.
You don't necessarily need to know your theme when going in,
(17:05):
because I think it's a creative journey. While we were
making the movie, those things started to kind of pop up,
and then then the movie started to change. It was
actually literally once Chris started having conversations with Howard, I
was like, this is there's something interesting here, this something
(17:25):
interesting about being detached from other not having human contact,
and the only relationship you have is artificial, which I
think we live in a world now where all of
our communication is filtered through electronics, whether it's texting or
emailing or all that kind of stuff. So it's like,
so what happens to the human condition when you're cut
(17:45):
off like that? And so those things kind of grew
while we're making the movie. And the fact that he
has really two artificial relationships, yeah, one with Gabby, who
is a figment of his imagination created by the system,
and Howard and it's really the same relationship, but there's
a different agenda between them. So it's those things. Those
(18:09):
things kind of came to the service while we're making
them movie.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
I mean, just listening to you talk about it is awesome.
I mean because really, what you've done in your in
your process, for my interpretation, is you brought the art right.
Because screenwriting filmmaking there is a structure to it. It
can almost be like baking a cake. You know, you
have you have the recipe, push it in for twenty
(18:33):
one days and there you go right and you can
add some icing and special effects on top and make
it pretty. So there there is a lot of that there,
like structure is a thing. But it sounds like you
wanted to take a step back and just kind of
let that art flow through the script and discover the
story as the story is happening, which is one exceptionally
(18:54):
brave to be able to do foolish. There's the same
set of there's a level of hubris there right right,
but but then be able to do it and be
able to accomplish it and to discover the humanity through
the filmmaking process is awesome. I mean, it's brilliant because
it came through. I could tell like you found the humanity,
(19:15):
you found the theme, and then you leaned on the
theme and it showed out throughout the script. And I thought,
if if you didn't find that humanity, if you if
you weren't able to capture that, of course the film
would have suffered from it. But you're able to nail it.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, thank you, and you know, yeah absolutely. A couple
other things that I discovered along the way was originally
the Gabby character the barista and the coffee shop was
revealed as a villain. Well, I had I'd written it
where she confesses that that's the whole reason she's here
(19:51):
to get that piece of information from him. There's this
there was this big moment. But while we were filming it,
I had to change of heart about that. He's been
through and he's been through enough, and I I really
I think this is it's more interesting telling a story
about these very unusual relationships then just having this twist,
(20:13):
this villain twist. So I was like, I'm gonna leave
the villain very abstract. It's the is an, it's them,
it's someone that that's not really in the story. And
I thought that was more interesting. So that was a
big That was a change while we're filming.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
It was one hundred the right call because he needed
a grounding character, and that's again it was because he
didn't have one. Howard is not a grounding character. Howard
very much his SERPs the lead there. So I think
keeping Gabby that way and having her be almost a
romantic interest that he knows is a fakement, which is
which is awesome, was was perfect and I love that
(20:50):
that you kept it that way. It's a really good call. Yeah,
I don't want to just be throwing compliments. I'm just like,
it's just awesome listening to the process and be like, yeah, man,
I mean you avoided you avoided danger there.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Right right, you know what? And I mean another thing
was I didn't think Howard going in. I didn't think
Howard had as much value as then I kind of found, uh,
you know, talking to a computer voice is. You know,
we've seen it a million times. It's been done so well,
different ways and different films, alas the Marlon Brando of
(21:29):
you know, computer characters. So I knew, like, this is
nothing new. We've seen this before, and I didn't think
it would be that interesting. So but as the as
the movie, as we were shooting, I just found it interesting.
I just found it ironic and funny and whatever. But
the interesting thing was we didn't have Howard's voice while
(21:50):
we were filming. Okay, so I didn't know how that
was going to play, how well that was going to work,
and I knew it was important. So when we were
done filming, I did this. I looked for all these
different voice actors. I listened to all these different trying
to find Howard's voice, and I couldn't find it. And Jesse,
who does the voice of Howard. He was an actor
(22:12):
who was a friend of Chris, who was just providing
Howard's voice off camera, Oh, giving him something to react to. Yeah.
So I was editing Jesse's voice for so long and
I couldn't And I was like it was ironic because
I was like, this whole time, I'm looking for Howard.
He's there, He's right here. Because I was like, there
was something interesting about the way they they played off
(22:35):
of each other. So I just I used Jesse's voice.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
I mean, that's what a great performer does, though, right
takes that role and won't let you give it to
anybody else. I was like, exactly what he did.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yeah, and he was so cool, Yeah he was. So
I was like, would you be the voice?
Speaker 1 (22:49):
And he was like yeah, sure, it's no big deal,
of course.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
So I like that you eliminated a twist that didn't
need to be there, because I think a lot of
filmmakers and screenwriters hear the old adage, what's the twist,
what's the twist? Give me the twist, and so they'll
work in a twist that's totally unnecessary and can destroy
the film. It's good to surprise the audience. It's good
(23:19):
to keep them on their toes because we want to
keep them glued to the screen. But if you start
adding in twists to adding twists because you just think
it's a great idea, but it doesn't add any value
to the story or creating any development for their character,
you're going astray.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Absolutely if it's not sad, if it's not satisfying. But
if it yeah, there's a balance to it. But definitely
it's interesting. And I think that as as a writer,
and you know, I'm sure you know this as well.
It seems the more you write, the less you rely
on the gimmicks. At first, it's very gimmick heavy, like, oh,
(23:57):
I have this great shocker, and then I build the
script around that, you know, But then as you write
more and you learn more, it's like, it's really not
it's it's that story that's the most important, and if
the gimmick works and it serves that story, then great.
But there's too much time, too much energy spent on
the gimmick.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
I agree, I really, actually, I really agree with you
because for me that the thing that drives me crazy
is when somebody wakes up from a bad dream after
like thirty seconds like a big killer intro, you know, like,
oh this is coolni guy wakes up or a lady
like somebody's covered in sweat and you're going like, oh
my god, what's happening? Why are we doing this? You
(24:36):
know what I mean, like, you can't do that? You
know what.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I don't know anybody in real life that sits up
and goes yeah yeah, no never.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
I totally like what he was that yeah, yeah, So
you really beat the hell out of this guy. I mean,
this this central character, like you come for him. And
I remember I was watching it going because in the
structure that I preach, at the midpoint is when the
characters at their lowest and then they start to rebuild,
and then they have another moment right right in act
(25:10):
three where they're at their lowest again and then they succeed.
So and I was like, well, we definitely got to
be at the midpoint now. We just beat the hell
out of this guy to look at us like we're
only like thirty five minutes, and I'm like, oh my god,
this is like this guy's gone through it. So but
I thought that's great because it keeps you invested in
the character. I think it keeps the pressure going. Because
this is a contained film. We have like two sets
(25:32):
really if you like at or we have we have
the coffee shop and we have the prison. So I'm like,
I sat down to watch this knowing this going, Okay,
is this going to be boring because a lot of
situations you'll find like this, films that are done like this.
I've seen on like the indie film circuit. It's just
dialogue heavy and boring, right, But as soon as we
(25:55):
start to kind of lose a little bit of that steam,
there's a power shortage or he tries to escape, so
you keep that kind of that tension going and upping
those stakes a little bit. I thought that was like, yes,
this is a this is how you do a contained film.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Oh thank you, thank you so much. I appreciate that
because that was the biggest That was my biggest fear
that and going into it is how how are we
not going to get bored? And how to keep that
story going because you know, yeah, your feet go to
sleep after a certain point. So that was my challenge
was how to how to keep that going. So the
(26:38):
one thing for me was to me, it's it's a
self contained movie in disguise that, yes, so much, but
to let the movie breathe and to get out of it.
And that's why I put in the memory recall but
going to the coffee shop over and over and over,
and then he can start to manipulate that. That was like, okay,
(27:01):
that's my way out of the story. So we're not
in this room the entire time. And plus it was
a It was a budgetary decision because I could shoot
so much in one setup was using his wake up
routine and him going to the coffee shop over and
over and over, so I didn't have a lot of
different locations. I could use that Groundhog Day element to
(27:24):
get more bang for my buck while shooting. But that
was my biggest concern was the claustrophobic element of it
and boredom. And I was really concerned about that. And
I got to tell you just a quick story is
that when I edited the film, the first edit didn't work. Okay,
(27:46):
I went by the script. The script was a little
bit differently, and I edited the film and then I
was like, it just doesn't work. It's boring, it's too slow.
We got to get to this. How do we do this?
So then I changed the story structure in the edit, okay,
And then I did a second edit, and then I
over edited. Yeah you know, which happens because you're like, yeah,
(28:11):
my fear, my own insecurities were so that then the
second edit didn't work. So then I took a breather,
I sat back, and then I took from both of those,
like all right, and I did a third edit, and
that's the one that we have now. So like when
I look at it, I still have problems.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Of course, of course, because you're involved in it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yeah. The very first scene in the Cell is the
longest scene in the movie, and that drove me crazy,
like that's not the time to be stopping and taking
our time, and I just wanted to get the get it,
get things going quicker. But you need patience, you need
to have restraint, but you need to keep the story moving.
So that was that was a difficult juggling act for me.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
I think what works with the first act, if I
may please, oh please, what I think what works with
the first act is the you build the intrigue, right,
So what I find with sci fi films particularly is
sci fi films will grab you early with the world. Okay,
and then if they work well at their structure world,
(29:17):
they keep you with the humanity, right, So, like really
bad sci fi, you start to lose the audience in
act too, because then it just becomes spectacle spectacle, spectacle,
Look how great this world is. That's one of the
reasons why AI didn't work so well. But with this,
you know, I have the intrigue. Okay, he's in the prison.
(29:39):
That's crazy. There's this weird robot. But maybe it's not
a robot, because we see a scene of a control
station where there might be somebody controlling Howard, so maybe
it is a guy. So then you build in the
intrigues so you're like, oh, okay, this is interesting, and
then that keeps you and then we get into the
humanity in act too, and then the movie is gets
(30:00):
better and better. So I think I think that really works.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Thank you, Thanks, I appreciate it. You know, it's funny.
I got a lot of fans that asked me, that
challenged me on that that shot of the control room
and hearing Howard's voice unfiltered. Yeah, so it's interesting. I
that's exactly why I did it, to try to keep
that O a minute, Is this a real guy or or.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Is it not? So you have you have fans that
what are they? What are they challenging you on?
Speaker 2 (30:30):
That that was a cheap shot?
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Oh is that what?
Speaker 2 (30:32):
They say?
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Yeah, it's filmmaking.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yeah yeah, yeah. They're like, well, which is fine a challenge,
but it's like, that's that's not fair. You can't do that,
and and and they're like, what did you what did
you what did you mean by that? Because we heard
fingers on a keyboard and we heard Howard and I said, well,
here's my thought on it. That there was a guy
who was sitting there, but that he doesn't provide Howard's voice.
(30:57):
That's a program. You were in it unfiltered in the
drow room. There was a guy working until the base
was evacuated. And they're like, oh, okay, okay, that's still
a cheap shot.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
It's not I love that you have fans invested enough
that they get emotionally upset about it, because that's how
much they liked the film. And I think that love.
If a fan can come up to you and have
that kind of an argument they've invested in it, that's
a good thing. If somebody doesn't somebody doesn't like a property.
They don't like a film, then then their response is apathy.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, I love it. I've gotten into the
biggest one is the ending, and I've I've gone off
the ending. Oh yeah, yeah, no, the and this it
did exactly what I wanted it to do.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
It created a discussion, It created questions and gave answers.
It let people decipher for themselves what that ending would be.
And I really wanted to do that. I wanted to
give in long story short. And it's funny because like
all my friends and family, they we completely like different things,
different kinds of movies, happy endings, yeah, a darker stuff, whatever.
(32:09):
And I remember I had a movie experience where I
went with friends and family and everyone had a different
reaction to the movie, and I thought, of course, is
there a way too, Is there a way to make
everybody happy here in a way that we can both
enjoy it? Because I have a version of the ending
of Infinny Chamber, my wife has a version. Everyone has
a different take on what that ending meant, and I
(32:31):
I was trying to do that, but I thought it
was am I gonna get blasted for that?
Speaker 1 (32:37):
It's so high risk, dude? Yeah, again Hoover's comes into
play here was. I watched that ango he did it right,
but it could have gone south so fast, like oh
oh man, yeah, because I've seen it. I've seen I've
seen the film where they do that and they have
the the unknown ending right, yes, but it's mostly because
(32:58):
the filmmaker couldn't commit right or they're just trying to
be overly artistic and and and that doesn't sell either, right.
But you had a goal for it. It was how
do I make an ending that the answer is yes
and and that's and that's what you did. I don't
so awesome, very good.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Oh thank you. I really appreciate it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeah, all right, So you've been you've been doing this
for a while, and what kind of we we've been
already talked about. What kind of advice do you have
for indie writers out there, indie filmmakers out there that
that have seen your stuff or or are motivated to
get out there and really like try and make this
(33:43):
thing happen.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Yeah, I think right now it's such it's such an
exciting time to be a filmmaker. I don't think there's
ever been another time like it. Okay, I really don't
because of the technology and the software is accessible anyone.
I mean, you can make a movie with your phone.
You can make a movie with everything you can fit
(34:05):
into a backpack, and I don't think we've been there before.
It's so it's easy technically to make a movie. It's
difficult with all the other logistics and creatively, So my
biggest advice is to make a movie and maybe you
have ten dollars or you have one thousand dollars, regardless,
(34:28):
you're you're making something, and every time you make another one,
it's gonna improve and you're gonna learn along the way.
So that whole hesitation of yeah, well I need a star,
I need a budget, I need this, I need this,
I need this, well, sure, but ninety nine point nine
percent of the time you're gonna be waiting forever to
(34:49):
have those moons aligned, so to me. But and then
also just creatively, my biggest advice is you can't chase trends.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Yeah. I totally agree with that.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Yeah, I think that's the biggest mistake most of the
time is people are trying to write what's popular, and
we know that two years from now it's all going
to be different, and by the time your project actually
makes it through the machine, that's going to be gone
so or recycled, or you got to wait for the
next cycle and stuff like that. So that's my biggest
thing is don't worry about trends at all. Doesn't matter
(35:25):
if Westerns or vampires or whatever's popular at the moment.
Write what's in your heart, right, what you believe in, right,
the movie you want to see. That's the biggest thing.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
You know. It's interesting because I equate it to having kids.
I know, just follow me for a second. All right, No,
I'd gone off and going off here. So you know,
you're never ready to have a kid. And you say, well,
I want to wait till I have the house. So
I want to wait till we have enough money. I
want to wait till the house is done. I want
(35:54):
to wait. You know, you just keep putting it off,
and really it's just a fear thing, and eventually you
just have to tell yourself you are never ready to
have a kid. It's going to be pure chaos and
the worst best thing of your life. And and so
then you just have to do it. And I think
this is the same thing personally.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Absolutely, that's a great analogy. That's about the best analogy ever.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
There really is best thing.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Because there's no good time. There's no good time to
have a kid or make a movie. That's why you know,
you just got to go into it.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Have to. Yeah, you just have to do it. And
with uh, with what what do we have coming out
right now? Do you have anything coming up? You're working
on stuff?
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Yeah, I'm well, you know, I'm I I kind of
have my two worlds. I work as a writer for
other for other companies and studios and whatever. So I
have a handful of projects that are all in that
pre pre production phase that will hopefully happen. But and
then I'm also working on my next indie little passion
project out of the garage type movie.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
So like another indie you own with another indie kind
of production. Yeah, letting letting the art fail you.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Absolutely, And actually I'm even trying to. I'm even taking
that a step further of shooting along the way of
going out and shooting for two three days and then
editing and looking at it and thinking about it and
then okay, we're gonna go shooting again. I'm gonna just
I'm just gonna continue that process and when you're not
spending money. There's no you know, there's no danger in
(37:38):
that really other than people's time and energy. But the
people that I work with are so passionate about it,
and so I'm motivated to absolutely like I'll call you
at two in the morning. You want to go shoot, Yeah,
let's go do it.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
It's amazing. So you really have a great network around
you on top of the fact they have a pretty
awesome wife who's willing to go out and build a
set with you for like a year straight that you
got to get frovs.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
So on top of that, it sounds like you're going
out your filmmaking and you're and you're creating this network
on top of it, and so what's the worst that
can come from that? You know, if you're going on,
you're putting the effort out there and then you're just
having fun with it, dude, and like, oh man, yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
That's it's a ball. I'll tell you that that that's
my thing. And in fact, I'm doing test shots right
now for the next movie. But getting up being in
the middle of the night and going downtown l A
and driving around by myself getting this getting the play
shots getting the b roll doing all this stuff. That's
you know, three in the morning, downtown l A by
myself with a camera. I absolutely love it.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
So you were you getting cool stuff during COVID then
when the streets.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
Yes, yeah, absolutely that was. I did go out and
shoot quite a bit because I thought, well, if I
need some empty city street apocalyptic, yeah for sure. But
of course now it's so easy to do that, to
do that kind of stuff from post but of course regardless, Yeah, yeah, wow.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Well, Travis, I got to tell you thanks so much
for coming on the show. Oh absolutely, I appreciate your
time and and and can't wait to find out what
your next project is.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Thank you, and thanks so much for having me. I
really appreciate it. It's interesting Infinny Chamber had like the
second wave of activity, you know, because again about twenty
eighteen on Netflix and it did, you know, it did well,
and then and then all of a sudden, there's all
it started making all these top ten lists, and like
(39:39):
just in the last few months, all of a sudden,
there's another resurgence of it. I don't know if people
found it during the pandemic or what, but all of
a sudden there's another wave of activity with it.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Well, what I find, what I find with good films
is they're going to find they're going to find their
fan base, they're going to find their tribe, whether whether
it's right away or whether it's it's down the line.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
So I'm not surprised at all. And I think that
it's a testament to what you've done. And I have
to be honest with your process of really finding the
art and then working that into the story and finding
the humanity story. It sounds like a lot of fun.
It sounds incredibly difficult to pull off. And I'm really
excited that this is something that you were able to
(40:20):
do because there's there now that's an option for other
younger filmmakers out there, they're like, Okay, maybe I can
try this. I can go build this set and see
just make the story and see what comes out.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Yeah. Absolutely, And and you know, and just adding to
that is embracing, embracing the flaws and the mistakes and
the hardships. Like to me, that's all part of the process,
and it can push you in a more creative direction
because you don't you can't get that location, then you're
creatively forced to come up with an alternative and then
(40:52):
what's magical is when that's better than what you were originally.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
Well, yeah, I love that. When I come on to
a gig and they give me all of these parameters
and they kind of narrow me in at what I
can't do, it lights my mind on fire because like,
I love that kind of a challenge. I've seen other
writers kind of cripple from that, and I'm like, Okay,
so it only has to be one room. It only
has to be it can only be you know, one
(41:17):
guy in a robot, let me get it. I want
to do that, you know, like that sounds awesome and
that's and that's kind of like why I know what
I'm supposed to do, because you want to be challenged
creatively to really find that that like special key to
the script or the story.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Absolutely, you know, sorry you got me rolling now. But
I love the self contained thing, which is really hot.
Which is interesting because I wrote a lot of self
contained scripts over the last few years and suddenly there's
been a lot of interesting in them because of the pandemic,
Like all of a sudden, Yeah, there's more interested in that.
But what I love, I love being challenged to the
(41:53):
self contained thing. In my mind, I think it's not
just it's not geog that's that's making the story work.
I think, Okay, if we're in one room, then one
area is the kitchen, one area is over here by
the window instead of the gas station, the hotel, the whatever.
(42:16):
That's your world in there, and those are your different things,
but the story stays the same. You're just not you're
not changing geography. So I love that challenge.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
I can. I totally agree that. And one thing I've
noticed that that you you used it a little bit.
And in Pandorm and I saw an infinity chamber was
a claustrophobic feeling. There's a couple of scenes in Pandorum
where Ben Foster's climbing through a vent and I felt
physically uncomfortable. Oh yeah, and then we have an infinity
(42:46):
chamber the same thing where he's he's he's losing his
mind right, and he's going kind of crazy. He's pacing
back and forth to treadmill is and't doing his job,
you know. And so I was like, that is another
great thing to play with with contained because I've noticed that,
like everybody's a little claustrophobic. I think, especially as you
(43:07):
get older, you start liking tighter spaces less and less,
you know, because like the coffin is around the corner,
you know what I mean. Like when you're a kid,
you're hanging out in tiny huts and forts and whatnot.
You don't you don't care. The world is your oyster.
Buta you get older and like, I just think I
need the bedroom door open now, Like.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
You know, that's true. And that was one of the
when writing Pandoram, I was like, I'm going to try
to make the scariest thing in Claustrophobia was one of
my big ones. So that was It's funny if you
mentioned that scene because that was, Yeah, that's my worst
nightmare is going down that comes to.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
A dead end, but like the cables and everything, and yeah,
my camera was coming in h so cool.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
The other thing too, is just sorry. The last thing
as the like infinity chamber. It was driven by easiest
thing that I could do. One guy in a room,
giving them, giving the character a means of communication. That's easy,
that's cheap to shoot his discussions with a security camera.
(44:15):
So I've created a character without having another actor, And
it's like, so a lot of the stuff that I'm
writing relies on Okay, it's somebody on a phone, or
it's somebody talking through event, or it's someone top you know,
talking to characters that are hidden or behind devices or whatever.
(44:35):
But so that's that was a big push of how
can I have more characters in my story without having
another actor? So that was that was a big motivation.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
That's a really great idea. Well, and the thing about
Howard was fun because you start to realize he's speaking
from a dialogue tree, oh right, right, And the consistency
there made it a lot of fun because you expect
what he's going to say. But then the ca character
is so smart that he can talk around Howard and
start making him second guess his own dialogue tree, which
(45:07):
weirdly added a bit of humanity to the computer, which
I thought was interesting. Now, the other character that he
runs into I would call a mentor character, a mentor
arch type. Sure, I can't remember his name, but Fletcher, Yeah,
on the other side of the wall, where he starts
(45:27):
out as a really strong character and thematically is still
there as well. But what I like is that you
show what will happen to a character if he can't
get out and he kills himself. And I was like,
that is one hundred percent what our central character needed
to see. You know, if he just stayed there and
(45:48):
was alive and was a support structure, it would have
really hurt the film. But from what I understood in
the show notes, you shot them at separate times. They
never actually played off of each other.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Right, Yeah, they still haven't met, Are you serious? Yeah? Yeah,
they've talked on the phone, but they've never met in person.
See now, that and I saved that role. I knew
I could shoot that role anywhere. We only saw him
through the event, so we actually we shot that in
my living room because the set the set was gone
(46:20):
because I only had the space. I only rented the
space for whatever. So I knew I could shoot that anywhere.
And actually I purposely made it that way so if
I got a name actor, I could literally go to
their house and set that up in their garage and
they could shoot it all in one day.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
So I rolled that way. That is some movie making magic.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Well thanks, and logistically it just didn't work, uh, you know,
we didn't have no money, so it just didn't work
to have a name. But Kajardo. I knew Kajardo, and
he was just fantastic. I mean, I'm so glad it
worked out the way it did. But yeah, so we
were shooting those two parts a year apart in different locations.
(47:01):
I was surprised. I was really worried it wouldn't work,
but that there there, you know that.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
No, it worked, it worked. I I no, I have
to pry.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
How much of your house did you use for this film?
Speaker 2 (47:16):
Uh? A lot?
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Really?
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Oh yeah, everything everything but the coffee shop we were
the it.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Was the the control station.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
No, that actually that was the back room of the
production company where we rented our equipment where he did
the whole escape and he came out and went up
the ladder. That was at the place where we rented
our gear. So we're like, can we shoot figure?
Speaker 1 (47:39):
That's so awesome.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
And the control room, yeah, that was and I was like,
can we shoot in there?
Speaker 3 (47:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (47:47):
Okay, And we like threw together some monitors and whatever.
So it was but like, yeah, the the hospital room,
his apartment back room almost.
Speaker 1 (47:58):
Had a hospital room in your house.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
Well, there's that one close up shot of the old
man laying on life support, right, So he was just
laying on the kitchen table and we just put a
white plastic thing behind him.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Oh my god, dude, I would have never saw that.
That's well, are you serious?
Speaker 2 (48:15):
For the indie filmmakers out there, there's so many, like
all the little all the little b roll shots, like
of the like the laser and like all those little
things I did on the I did on the kitchen
table after we were done all those little inserts, and man,
I I tell you, I went I needed these city shots,
(48:37):
like all the city shots. I would go out every
night for weeks to try to get the perfect b
roll shot of city. So I was driving around downtown
l A. I broke up a drug deal one time.
I came around a corner and these guys up running.
And there's one shot in the movie where a train
goes by, right, and it's the funny story about that
(48:57):
is I needed a shot of the of the train
coming up with a sitting in the background. I drove
all around La I come, and then I finally found.
I was like, oh, here it is. So I set
up the camera. I put on the ground, Oh train's coming.
I'm like, oh cool, And the guy stopped the train
to yell at me, and he opened the window and
he's like, what are you doing? Because you're way too
close to the tracks. I'm calling the police. I'm like,
I'm sorry, I'm just trying to get a shot. I'm
(49:19):
just trying to He goes, You're way too close to
the tracks. And I was like, and all the commuters,
all these people going to work are all like, man, well,
they're all looking at me, Like was he on? I
didn't know we could stop the train like that. Anyway,
he drove away and I was like wow. And then
I was about to move the camera and I saw
another train coming, so I just turned it on and
walked away, and then the train went by, and that's
(49:39):
the shot that's in the movie.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
Oh wow, Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
And all right, So some people I read some I
did some digging. Some people think the old man is
him right? Is that you're going for that?
Speaker 2 (49:57):
Or well I've had that discussion that the different multiple
endings and what it means and all that kind of stuff.
And when they say here's what I think. I think
he's the old man on life support and it's his
own internal battle of a machine keeping him alive and whatever.
And I say yes absolutely.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
And then you drop a mic and walk away.
Speaker 2 (50:21):
But that's what I intended. I was like, I wanted
people to take the movie how and I left it
and I did clues where all three versions are viable, dude,
and then you can challenge them to me, well, yeah
I had, Yeah, I have my version, but and there's
very specific clues that point to that. But then someone
(50:43):
can argue and say, yeah, but this, this, this, and
I'm like, you're right, you're right.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
I kind of don't want I kind of don't want
your version because it's.
Speaker 2 (50:51):
Going to spoil it.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
It's going to spoil my version. And I know people
are going to get mad at me for not pushing
on that getting it from you. Oh sure, I'm going
to respectfully not push on that.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
Hey, that's great to me. To me, it's a happy
ending regardless there, even though even though.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
You're literally doing it right now trapping.
Speaker 2 (51:11):
Sorry sorry sorry.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
That awesome. Oh dude, You've been such a pleasure to
be on the show man. I really appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (51:19):
Thanks, I appreciate it. Love being on here.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
I can talk script man, we can go all week. Yeah,
you know, talking script absolutely. I just absolutely love it.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
Hey, if this episode helped you out, share it with
a writer who needs it. And if you haven't yet,
hit follow and leave a quick rating. It helps more
screenwriters like you find the show. Finally, you can also
connect with me on Instagram at screenwriter Pod. Thanks again
for listening, Keep writing,
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