75: How to Navigate Student Loan Debt with Attorney Stanley Tate

Known for his practical and accessible guidance, Stanley Tate, an expert attorney in student loan law, has become an indispensable resource for student loan borrowers of diverse backgrounds.  In this conversation, Jessica and Brandon dive into the complexities of the student loan debt landscape and its emotional toll on borrowers. From navigating federal, private and Parent PLUS loans, to strategies for finding relief through repayment options and bankruptcy, this episode is packed with expert insights and practical steps you can take to reassess your  decisions regarding student loans, repayment and the ROI of college.

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Learn more about Brandon and schedule a free 30-minute introductory call with him here: https://www.oakcityfinancial.us

Notes from the show:

https://www.tateesq.com/

https://www.youtube.com/@stanleytate

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
In today's conversation, you're going to
hear us speak with attorneyStanley Tate, who focuses
specifically on student loans.
We talk about everything fromthe predatory loan industry to
what you really need to considerbefore taking out student loans
for yourself or as a parent,taking student loans out for
your child.
We dive into mindset as well asreally understanding what

(00:24):
you're signing up for when itcomes to these loans and then
his services around includingyour loans in bankruptcy, and
understanding the intricaciesand all of the student loan
forgiveness programs.
If you have student loans orknow somebody who is drowning
under student loans, thisepisode is for you.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
Hey babe, what are we talking about today?

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Today we are talking about student loans, which I
know is a very daunting,hair-raising, anxiety-inducing
topic, and I know we've talkedabout it in the past.
But today we actually have anexpert with us.
We have Stanley Tate, who is anattorney specializing in
student loans.
So we're going to get into allthe nitty-gritty about what's

(01:17):
going on with the landscape,what kind of services he
provides his clients and overallkind of best practices about
what to know before taking outstudent loans, how to repay them
, so that maybe you don't needto actually call Stanley's
office for help later on downthe line.
So we're going to get into allof those things, because we know

(01:38):
that this is a topic thataffects millions of Americans.
Unfortunately, we're not goingto get away from it anytime soon
, and then, with this turnoverin administration in 2025, I
don't know what's going tohappen.
So we're going to talk toStanley about that.
Stanley, thank you for beingwith us today on the Sugar Daddy
podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:55):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:56):
Absolutely.
Let's get into your bio so thateverybody knows where your
expertise lies, and then we'llget into your first money memory
before we dig into all thejuicy student loan goodness.

Speaker 3 (02:08):
I think you know, when we talk about bio, there's
like you could start with yourorigin story, like where you
come from, or like youreducational background, training
, whatever.
But I think for me it's mostimportant to know I'm from
Chicago Southside, because thatinforms everything that comes
later, just those lessons youget from there.
But beyond that, graduated lawschool, been practicing student

(02:29):
loan law now for a decade plus,got into this area of law after
practicing consumer bankruptcyfor a couple of years and
realizing that we weren't fullyaddressing student loan problems
.
And this is back in like 2014,.
People go through bankruptcyand still be stuck with student
loans afterwards.
And when is?
Back in like 2014,.
People go through bankruptcyand still be stuck with student
loans afterwards.
And when I looked at thelandscape of who was trying to
solve these problems, there werevery few people who had a focus

(02:54):
on this area of law inparticular.
In fact, it wasn't really anarea of law and I was like this
is a problem.
You look at the time there werelike 30 plus million people and
no one's really focused on.
Okay, what do you do with allof these programs?
So that got me into it.
I've been doing it since then,2014, full time.
One of the only practicesnationwide that's all they're
focused on is student loans.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
That's amazing.
I absolutely love that.
Well, let's yeah, you just gaveus the bio.
I was going to do that for youand read your bio.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
Oh, my bad.
I'm so sorry about that.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
No, don't even.
It's great, but I want to makesure that we cover some of that
other stuff that ChicagoSouthside that you just
mentioned.
I know that's very important toyou, but what I have is Stanley
.
Tate is a distinguishedattorney specializing solely in
student loan law, a niche wherefew venture, which is exactly
what you just said.
His unparalleled expertiseencompasses the intricate

(03:47):
process of discharging studentloans in bankruptcy.
Known for his practical andaccessible guidance, stanley has
become an indispensableresource for borrowers of
diverse backgrounds.
A trusted speaker, he delvesinto higher education, financing
and legal automation for hispeers.
His academic roots trace backto Southern Illinois University,

(04:07):
carbondale, for undergraduatestudies, followed by a law
degree from Thurgood MarshallSchool of Law with honors.
So you left that out.
You got to give yourself thoseaccolades.
Stanley, his pedigree.
You know what?

Speaker 3 (04:19):
I'm going to say, someone else will say it, you
were doing my job.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
His pedigree also includes federal clerkships in
Texas and Missouri.
Stanley has been featured inthe New York Times, the Wall
Street Journal and theWashington Post.
He's also been named a Missourisuper lawyer rising star
multiple times over.
We just want to make sure wegive you your props, you know.

Speaker 3 (04:42):
You know I never run it down like that.
I sound like I'm trying to pickup some young lady at the bar
on a Friday night, just runningdown the hall at late.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
I mean, maybe you don't read the bio to her when
you're, you know, trying to pickher up at the bar.

Speaker 3 (04:56):
You know people, they like to sell themselves.
But no, thank you for doingthat.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
It's sometimes it really makes me blush when I
hear the kind of uncomfortablebecause I just do the work in
front of me I don't really worryabout the results or how it all
stacks up, so it's kind of coolto hear Well, we know that the
best people doing good workrarely care about the accolades
and care about the work and thepeople that they're helping, so
we're going to put you in thatcamp.

(05:21):
So thank you for the work thatyou do.

Speaker 3 (05:23):
I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (05:24):
Thank you, going to put you in that camp.
So thank you for the work thatyou do.
I appreciate it.
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (05:29):
Before we get into all of those specifics, let's go
into your first money memory,because we are a financial
literacy podcast.
The first real money memory isI remember paying.
I got caught up in some type ofcriminal charge where I had to
hire a lawyer and I hired thislawyer, paid him $5,000.
And to me that was like anungodly amount of money at that

(05:51):
time but it was worth it becauseI believed he would make.
Whatever the charge was, goaway.
And sure enough he did.
And he did in what seemed like15 minutes to me and I was like,
wait, you can make that type ofmoney doing that for that.
And from then I became focusedon how does that kind of inform

(06:12):
the type of life I want to lead,because I didn't think that
world was possible.
Everyone around me they workedlike you thought you had a good
job if you worked a sunriseshift at UPS, right.
So it's like that extra 50 centinterval increase.
So having seen that and seenwhat was possible made me
believe my world was a lotbigger than the South side of

(06:34):
Chicago, that there were moreopportunities other than being a
postal man.
No shade against it whatsoever.
But it was just very bluecollar type of work and it
wasn't something where you canget paid an exorbitant amount of
money in exchange for the timethat you spent.

Speaker 2 (06:50):
That kind of goes back to the whole concept of
it's hard for someone to becomewhat they aren't currently
seeing, and that's so importantwhen you're young.

Speaker 3 (07:01):
Yeah, absolutely I mean, but for like a different
world, but for that experiencelike that, where these kind of
things start to compound on oneanother, you start to believe a
world is bigger than the blocksthat you track to and from
school.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
right, to law school and like, okay, I'm going to
become an attorney, becauseapparently that's not what you
had in front of you as far asexamples.
So that must have been a toughroad in and of itself.

Speaker 3 (07:32):
Yeah, it was, but it was just setting out okay, what
does it take to become thisthing Like?
For me, it was never a questionof smarts or brain power, just
a question of smarts or brainpower, it's just a question of
focus.
And once I realized, okay, tobecome a lawyer you have to go
to law school, you have to passthe LSAT, yada, yada, yada.
And then I set off on that path.

(07:55):
And that path I didn't have theundergrad grades to do it.
So then I had to think, okay,what else can I do?
And I tried to find a job inthe legal field.
No one would hire me.
Because I was like, oh, if Ihave experience, that'll help
buttress my resume.
No one would hire me.
So one day I was talking to myboy.
He was like man, you know what?
Why don't you just join themilitary as a paralegal?
And I was like I bet.

(08:15):
And then I went down there andI signed up to the recruiter.
I was like yo, I'm only joiningif I get to be a paralegal.
And they were like, okay, let'ssee what can be done.
And I was like no, you don'tunderstand me.
It's not see what can be done.
I'm only doing this.
If this happens, right, let meclarify.
And that happened.
And then as soon as I got inthe next year, I sat down for

(08:40):
the LSAT, took the LSAT deployedto Iraq, turned in my
application to law school when Iwas in Iraq got accepted.
And as soon as I got thatacceptance letter I was like, oh
my God, this is real and I cando this.
And then got out the military,went right to law school and
realized, whoa, this is a wholenew world.

(09:03):
The skills that brought methere won't keep me there, won't
take me to the next level.
Now I got to learn some newskills here, but thankfully it
was just like that level offocus of I want to do this.
So what steps do I need to takein order to get there?
Let's do that.

Speaker 1 (09:20):
Have you been listening to our podcast and
wondering how am I really doingwith my money?
Am I doing I really doing withmy money?
Am I doing the right thingswith my investments?
Am I on track to reach myfinancial goals?
What could I be doing better?
If you answered yes to any ofthese questions, then it's time
for you to reach out to Brandonto schedule your free yes, I
said free 30-minute introductionconversation to see how his

(09:43):
services could help make you themore confident moneymaker we
know you could be.
What are you waiting for?
It's literally free and, at thevery least, you'll walk away
feeling more empowered andconfident about your financial
future.
Link is in our show notes.
Go schedule your call today.
I love that.
I don't know why that wasn't inyour bio.

(10:05):
First off, let's start there.
Second of all, we just hadVeterans Day, so thank you for
your service and I love that youhad a friend.
That was like go to themilitary, do this one specific
thing.
And now you're sitting whereyou're sitting.
I mean that's pretty incredible.

Speaker 3 (10:24):
Changes the entire trajectory of my life.
For any person out there, anyyoung person that comes from a
background that has theirwanting for resources, I think
it's a great opportunity tochange your stars.
It kind of fast tracks yourprogress towards things.
So for me, fast tracks progresstowards changing my life.

(10:48):
And it shows up in differentways because when I was in law
school, people they treat youdifferently when they find out
you're in the military right andit's like oh, you've served
your country and you deployed ohmy God right.
And they start making up herostories about you and you're
like dude, I sat in a sandbox inIraq.
I didn't really do nothing, butlet me be clear.
But they treat you like it'sHurt Locker and I'm like all
right, cool, if that's what youwant to believe, let's go.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
Right, oh, my gosh.
All right.
So that was a whole story Iwasn't even prepared for, but
thank you for sharing that.
And thank you also for sharingthat first money memory of kind
of having a little bit of a runin with the law, because I think
people listening you know,nobody's path is straight and I
think when you have theseconversations and quote unquote,

(11:33):
people have made it.
You know, people think that youjust were on the straight line
and you had all the resourcesaround you in the world, and I
think that that's just not thereality from all the
conversations we've had.
And so thank you for beingvulnerable and sharing that with
us as well.

Speaker 3 (11:46):
I appreciate it.
I think it's super important toshare those things because,
like, people will see you todayand they can't even possibly
think of another world in whichyou came from, and I was like yo
, this is like I'm still tryingto adapt to this world.
I'm in now Like I can't believethis stuff is real, and but
then it's cool too, because it'slike that's one of the

(12:08):
beautiful things about being inAmerica is that you can change
your stars like that If you justapply yourself and a lot of
things go your way, because somethings didn't have to go my way
.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yeah, that's awesome.
How did you go into studentloan law?
I mean, like you said, it's aniche.
Nobody else really is in it.
Take us through that journey.

Speaker 3 (12:36):
It did start off where I was a consumer law
practitioner and we realizedthat I saw that there weren't
people solving student loanproblems.
But then there's a differencebetween recognizing a problem
and figuring out that there's asolution that could be monetized
.
And so I set out to say, oh, Iwant to help people with student
loans.
But OK, what does that actuallyeven mean?

(12:56):
And at the time there was onepiece of material from this
advocacy group called theNational Consumer Law Center.
They have a student loan Bible.
So I bought that book and it'slike 300 pages and I just read
it back to front and I was like,okay, I got it, but now you
have the math, you don't havethe art of doing it right.
You know the signs, you justdon't have how to apply it in

(13:17):
real practice.
And I needed people to kind ofhelp me do that.
And I started working with mybankruptcy clients and said,
okay, let me see what I can dowith these student loans.
But I still hadn't figured outa way to monetize it.
Because it's like, oh, youcould do a lot of this stuff
yourself.
And it wasn't until I wassitting in Jiffy Lube and I was
getting oil change and Iremember paying for the oil
change.
I was like wait, I could havedid this oil change myself.
Where they didn't want to dealwith themselves, they wanted

(13:48):
someone else to handle it forthem.
And I kind of made that pivotand kind of unlocked things for
me to say, if I'm going to dothis, the way that I position
myself is to provide a superiorcustomer service experience for
that person.
Experience for that person, andinitially I was focused on
solutions.
But over time I learned studentloan debt is such an emotional

(14:09):
thing that really what you'resolving for is how they feel
about their debt, about theiroutcome and their possibilities
in life.
And if we focus on that part,you're really doing that person
justice because you're unlockingthe future for them.

Speaker 1 (14:24):
So we just had Adrian Heinzon, who's a bankruptcy
attorney, and we talked aboutthat unsecured debt, the credit
cards, medical loans, et cetera.
But we did touch on the factthat in most bankruptcies, the
student loans do not go away,and so we'd love to understand,
from your bankruptcy backgroundand experience there, what was

(14:47):
it about the student loans that,aside from just the vast amount
of debt that people arecarrying, that people were
coming to you for, when it comesto that customer service aspect
, were they just not gettinggood information on how to do
repayments, not getting goodinformation?

Speaker 2 (15:04):
on how to do repayments or yeah, kind of like
what's your like, what is theavatar that's coming to you for
these types of services?

Speaker 3 (15:12):
Yeah, the avatar has changed over time as
historically it was someone thatwas in default.
They were trying to deal with aprivate student loan.
They were struggling with thestudent loan payment.
So they have this pressing needthat they're trying to solve
financially Over the last fouryears with Biden's forgiveness

(15:33):
programs and kind of the rollercoaster there.
It's what the hell am I missingout on?
Because I feel like I'm missingsomething because my loans have
not been forgiven.
And that is more of an analysisof okay, where do your loans fit
into all these availableprograms.
And also not just putting thatperson in the right position,

(15:54):
but helping them find the signalinside of the noise because
there is a lot of noise outthere and they see their
classmates or their friend onFacebook getting their loans
forgiven and yet they feel likethey're in the same situation
but their loans aren't andhelping put in context what's
happening, what the problem is.
And they're not getting greatinformation from the servicer or

(16:15):
the Department of Education.
But I tell them a lot of timesyou're not talking to a highly
skilled individual, you'rereally talking to someone who is
fundamentally different, likethe same as the person who
handed you your takeout order.
They're just following what'son the screen in front of them.
And this is the most complexconsumer loan product in the
world, bar none but the peoplenavigating that, the people

(16:37):
piloting it for you.
They aren't skilled.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yeah, that's such a hard thing because with the
clients I have that still havestudent loans, when we're going
over certain things and I'msaying like hey, you do need to
call into your area of service,I'm like I know it's going to be
a headache.
I'm prefacing this.
I know you're probably it's theworst.
You might want to do it twicebecause to make sure you get the
accurate information or weschedule a time where I'm on the

(17:03):
call with you.
But you're right, like it'sjust so hard and from my
experience as well, as far aslike what I see, like a lot of
people are consuming informationoff of social media and I've
only ever seen maybe one socialmedia account that provides, you
know, good, accurateinformation and everything else
is just like crap.

Speaker 3 (17:23):
It truly is.
And there's a lot of apples toapples belief comparison and
when I tell people one smallfact can change the entire
analysis of your situation.
But we don't want to believethat.
We just want to believe oh, Ihave this debt, I've had it for
a long time, it should be gone.
And it doesn't work like that.
And I want to say this one moretime this federal student loan

(17:47):
system is the most complexconsumer loan product in the
world.
You have all this interestcapitalization with forbearance.
You can change repayment termsanytime you want.
You can consolidate and reseteverything, you can take out new
loans freely and add to that aswell, and you can carry that
debt forever.
And it changes hands fromservicer to servicer and details

(18:10):
get lost.
Oh, and, by the way, we haveall these different forgiveness
programs that have all theseother requirements and tripwires
inside of there as well.
How do we begin to deal withthis?
I don't know.
It feels so complicated.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yeah, it's so complicated and, like you said,
there's so many programs, we allfeel like we're missing out on
something.
Did we miss the deadlines?
Why do the deadlines change somuch?
I mean it's really.
I mean I understand why peoplejust stick their head in the
sand and say, oh, I'm just goingto die with these loans,
because it almost sounds likethe better option than to face
it head on and have theseterrible conversations with

(18:47):
people who don't understand whywe're calling in.
And I mean it's really just aterrible system.

Speaker 3 (18:53):
It is, and I think the hard part is and the people
with student loan debt are.
Often they tell themselves, hey, I'm really smart, I'm good at
my job, I can figure out all ofmy other part of my life.
I can't figure out the studentloan thing.
And they begin to thinksomething is wrong with them.
It's kind of like Lord of theRings Frodo didn't just go on

(19:20):
his journey by himself, he hadto have Gandalf with him.
You need someone thatunderstands how to navigate the
system.
And that's not like a plug forme or any other professional,
it's just.
The truth of the matter is thatthis is not like your mortgage.
It is not like your car notethose have very simple
amortization schedules that youpay off over time.

(19:41):
This is the only debt that youknow of that has all these
different repayment terms,forgiveness programs associated
with them and, by the way,different loan types, depending
on when you went to school.
If you don't have those rightloan types, for example, there's
a bunch of people who got leftout of the public service loan
forgiveness program because theyhad these older federal student
loans made under a differentloan program.
They didn't know that they'relike I work in public service.

(20:02):
I got federal loans.
My loan should be forgiven.
No, actually you're in thewrong repayment plan.
You have the wrong loan type.
You didn't do this, this orthis.
And yeah, we made it clear toyou, but you're not thinking
about that because you're justputting your head down working,
doing your job.

Speaker 2 (20:15):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
Jess has no know what you just said, but that one was
missed.

Speaker 3 (20:25):
You have seen other hero journey stories where the
hero always starts off notknowing what to do and some old
dude comes along and is like yo,just do this.
And gives them the couragealong the way.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yes, no, I totally got the metaphor of like you're
holding people's hands, guidingthem into, you know, the new
galaxy of no student loans.

Speaker 2 (20:40):
Honestly, it's the same thing with just like a lot
of finances in general, becauseI have clients that I consider
infinitely smarter than me.
You know like I have clientsthat are surgeons and stuff like
that, and they're like I don'tunderstand this.
I was like, well, you werenever.
We were never taught this, sothat's the only reason it's like
you're not.
It has nothing to do withintelligence.

Speaker 3 (21:04):
It has to just do life.
But this, I'm like Neo, I justsee the ones and the zeros.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
I know how to navigate this Well, it sounds
like you're going to have a verylong career in this field,
because student loans are notgoing anywhere.
What do you anticipate for Imean student loans back in kind
of our day I'm going to do airquotes.
There was a lot of predatorylending that people are still

(21:31):
trying to get themselves out of,and have you seen a positive
change in the way student loansare made available for students
coming in now or like?
What do we need to be aware of?

Speaker 3 (21:48):
I think the hard part is well, to answer your
question directly.
I have not seen a fundamentalchange in how loans are issued.
If there's a loan product, ifthere's a financial product,
there's going to be predatorsthere, right?
That's just the nature of thething.
Is going to be predators there,right, that's just the nature
of the thing, the world we haveset up.

(22:10):
But I think what people trulyneed to be aware of, and where
we have to have reallychallenging conversations with
ourselves, at least fromparents' standpoint, is what are
we allowing our children tosign up for?
And oftentimes, parents, theywant their kids to go to the
school of their dreams, of thekids' dreams, and that school
may not be the best fit for themfinancially.

(22:30):
They're traveling to a schoolout of state.
Now they have to pay double forthat education, right, because
of how tuition works.
Then they are signing up forfederal student loans and
private student loans to offsetthose costs and they have this
belief that, oh, it'll all workout on the back end.
But with the rising cost ofschool, where you have some

(22:52):
schools charging $100,000 a year, there's no way you're going to
see the return on investmentfor that education.
And so if you are going to goto school, you have to have a
hard conversation about where amI getting the greatest value at
?
And then for parents, I thinkalso another thing they need to
focus in on is parent plus loansare a huge problem and parents

(23:14):
should sign up for them becausethey're there to offset the cost
of the child's education.
But parent plus loans don'tcome with the same repayment
options as other federal studentloans.
As a matter of fact, they comewith the most expensive
repayment options becausetheoretically, you should know
better as an older person aboutwhat you're signing up for.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
Could you quickly explain the Parent PLUS loan for
those individuals who aren'tfamiliar with that?

Speaker 3 (23:43):
that?
Yeah, absolutely so.
The way Parent PLUS loans work.
They're a federal student loanthat the parent borrows on
behalf of the child's education,and so your child will have an
opportunity to borrow up to acertain amount for their
education from the government,and whatever is left over you
have to either pay throughprivate student loans or, if
you're the parent, you can tryto take out Parent PLUS loans to
offset that cost.
And so this is a loan that isfor your child's education, but

(24:05):
it is legally in your name andeverything is tied to you as the
individual.
So it's not uncommon for me torun across parents who owe
$300,000, $400,000 of studentloan debt for two or three kids,
and now they're 55 years oldand they're like the payment is
$3,000 a month.
I only make $5,000 a month.

(24:27):
What the hell do I do?
And they didn't realize theysigned up for it because it's
kind of like frogging andboiling water.
It just kind of heats up overtime, and so when you get there
you're like oh, this is really aproblem and there's very few
things that can be done at thatstage.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yeah, and it's hard because you have to have those
hard conversations, like yousaid.
As far as what is the ROI?
And I kind of like use anextreme example where I'm like
you know, we're located here inNorth Carolina and I'm like, if
your child wants to be a teacher, which is an honorable
profession, but the reality isthat you're not going to make a
lot of money.
But the reality is that you'renot going to make a lot of money
, you don't send your kid toDuke University to become a

(25:04):
teacher because you're going tobe paying, you know, 60, $70,000
a year and they're going tocome out making 40, $50,000.
Like, that is a sad reality.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
I see where people are over leveraged.
I have a lot of social workersthey owe $200,000 teachers who
they believe that their way toincrease their income is to get
more education, borrow moreloans.
Now they have a master's and adoctorate.
Also they can have anincremental increase.
Now, thankfully, thoseprofessions come with public
service loan forgiveness builtin.

(25:36):
But that means you also have tobe monitoring those programs to
make sure you meet all thoseeligibility requirements.
And historically that was amuch more challenging program to
take advantage of until theBiden administration came and
kind of took a weed whacker tothose rules to open it up for
people.
But I just think those are thereal conversations we need to
have.
Is what is that ROI?

(25:57):
But it's hard to say becauseyou're 18, 19 years old, 17.
You're not thinking ROI.
You're thinking, dude, I'mgoing to have the greatest
freaking future ever of all timeand I'm gonna be able to pay
this back because why not?
But then reality hits and yourealize you don't really get
your stuff together until you'relike early thirties, mid
thirties at the you know roughlyis when your life finally

(26:18):
starts to stabilize, and as itdoes.
Oh, by the way, now you're in arelationship.
Now you're buying a home.
Now you're sending kids toprivate school.
Now you have a nicer car andit's like wait.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
I still have these student loans.
What do I do?
Yeah, and you're talking tosomebody who did a year of law
school and is not an attorney.
So I have the student loansfrom that one year of law school
and nothing else to show for it.
So I completely understand that.

Speaker 3 (26:39):
Right, and that's the crazy part about it, too right,
there are many people who go toschool that should not have
went to school, but only becausethey were told they had to go
to school.
That now they're stuck withsomething from a bad decision,
but it's following them like abad X and it won't go away and
it's like damn, this isimpossible.
But I don't know that there's abetter system out there that

(27:04):
doesn't involve free education,where we treat it like a public
utility, where we say, as asociety, we need to educate our
society, because if not, we haveto have a federal student loan
system or some type of PellGrant system that covers the
cost of education for those whodon't have the resources,
because if we didn't havefederal student loans, people
like me may not have been ableto go to school, because how are

(27:24):
my parents going to pay for it,right?
So we have to have some systemthat offsets that, unless we're
going to replace it and treat itlike a public utility.
But I don't see that happeningin our world here.

Speaker 2 (27:36):
Yeah, that makes too much sense.

Speaker 3 (27:39):
You know, the vast majority of the world over has
free or subsidized education.
Yet we choose not to do that.
Also, you know, people don'thave the same discretionary
income in other countries thatwe do here.
So we are prioritizingcapitalism, a lot of other
things, versus these kind ofpublic goods, and that's a

(28:01):
decision we make as a society.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
Yeah, I have a cousin .
So I'm originally from Germany,my mom's German and I grew up
there, and I have a cousin who'sa radiologist.
And I remember when I was atthe College of Charleston, which
is where we both went to school.
In South Carolina parking isreally scarce and so you pay an
arm and a leg.
So I was paying like $600 topark in a garage a semester and

(28:27):
she joked with me when I wentand visited one year that her
entire education for her to be aradiologist, a specialized
physician, was less than youknow 600 euro and I was paying
that to park my vehicle.
And you know, when you hearthose stories, it just enrages
you that people who, like you,said you're trying to improve

(28:47):
your life, you're trying to dogood in the world, especially if
you're in that public servicespace, and then you just come
out of it and you just feel likeyou got screwed.
I mean, it's just disheartening.

Speaker 3 (28:59):
It is, and the fact that we are allowing 17,
18-year-olds to sign up for thisincredibly complex financial
product is ridiculous at itscore.
And yet what is the actualsolution here?

Speaker 1 (29:16):
I don't know.
Yeah, tell us, I don't knowwhat I'm preparing for.
I'm like that's what you'rehere for, Stanley.

Speaker 3 (29:21):
But I don't know what the solution is because, like,
are you really ready to committo 44% taxes, right, like, or
higher, as some of these othercountries are?
I don't know that we're readyto make that type of financial
commitment to the betterment ofoverall society.

Speaker 1 (29:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (29:37):
Well, I think in the US we know that we're not.

Speaker 1 (29:40):
Right, exactly.
I mean, when you have yourhealth care system, that's a
for-profit system, and theprison system is a for-profit
system, and you have all thesesystems that should be, like you
said, for the betterment of thecountry, for the betterment of
the states, et cetera, like theyare in other countries when
we're still focused on profit,profit, profit.
It's just never going to happen.

Speaker 2 (30:00):
So how do we, since we're not going to fix the
system, Well, I also want to saythat, like as far as when it
comes to just building wealth,individuals who have large
student loans because theparents didn't have the money
for them to pay to go to collegeand they wanted to take off
student loans in order to bettertheir lives, they're now even
delaying the process of beingable to build wealth because
they're having these largestudent loan payments.
They're crippled underneaththeir debt as compared to

(30:20):
somebody whose family was ableto pay for it.
They get a good job coming outof school and they're able to
continue to add on to it rightaway as far as building their
wealth.

Speaker 3 (30:28):
Yeah, I think you know, looking at the rules as
they are today, probably themost radical thing you can do as
a parent is to be the martyrfor your child and take out the
debt in their name and you eatit and give them the free kind
of path of education, or youknuckle up and you send them out
of the country to go to school.
Because the reality is, withParent PLUS loans, we can't find

(30:54):
a way to manage the overallmonthly payment amount and as
you near retirement age ifyou're retiring, say, like
social security your paymentcould eventually drop down to
less than a hundred bucks amonth, regardless of the balance
.
I have one client.
He owes like $800,000 infederal student loans for parent
plus loans and his monthlypayment is $57 a month.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
Right, but is he ever going to come out of that?

Speaker 2 (31:17):
No, he's never going to pay it off.

Speaker 3 (31:19):
He's never but like he's either going to die or
he'll reach the finish line ofhis income driven repayment
forgiveness.
But his child, his children,are free to do whatever with
their earnings, right?
So he's carried that burden forthem.
And that is kind of like acrazy thing to think about is
that you foist yourself ontothis debt.

(31:39):
You foist yourself onto thisdebt, but that may be the best
thing you can do in this societyunder its current rules.
Because, yeah, sure, you cansend your kid off to community
college and you can send themoff to a state school and those
can work, but then you're stillI don't know how you for
everyone else, how do you trulyavoid racking up a ton of debt

(32:00):
throughout this process?
Because not every situation isgoing to call for a community
college, not every system isgoing to call for that.
They may want to go to highereducation, medical school,
post-grad degrees as well, andwhen you have a doctor and you
owe $300,000, $400,000, maybePSLF, depending on where it's at
, or maybe you're like they'regoing to make so much money, but

(32:20):
the reality is all physiciansdon't make a bunch of money.
Some do all this and only make$100,000 a year.
I say only, but in relation towhat they borrowed to get it.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
Right, I do want to hone in on two things.
I want to end on a positivenote and make sure that people
hopefully have some sort of atakeaway of how to avoid these
disastrous situations.
But when people come to you andyou've talked about your avatar
changing, you know, over theyears and with the changing
landscape but when they'recoming to you now, what is it

(32:51):
that you're doing for them?
I mean, we talked a little bitabout getting rid of the debt
with bankruptcy.
You're helping them navigatethese complex systems, like what
is a consult or, you know, aninitial client meeting with you
consist of yeah, so everythingstarts with figuring out what
type of debt they have federalor private.

Speaker 3 (33:09):
If it's federal, they send us over a copy of their
student aid file which shows theentire record of things, and
prior to the change inadministration, a lot of that
was just looking at.
Okay, of all the Bideninitiatives, which one is going
to benefit you the most?
And for the vast majority ofpeople, that's this thing called
the one-time account adjustmentthat looks at their time in

(33:31):
repayment forbearance anddeferment and gives them credit
towards this thing calledincome-driven repayment
forgiveness.
When people think about theirloans being forgiven after 20 or
25 years of paying, they'rereferring to income driven
repayment forgiveness.
And so we were looking at thoseprograms and saying, ok, if you
take these steps, you can getyour loans wiped out.
And over the past couple ofyears, we wiped out, you know,

(33:54):
over 50 billion dollars instudent loan debt for people
through either directly helpingthem or through our newsletter
help, et cetera.
And yet, you know, is that like?
Did we even make a dent in theproblem?
Right?
There's $1.6 trillion, which isan insane amount of number when
you think about it.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (34:14):
But so we start there and then we try to figure out
what is your universe of optionswhether it is focusing on a
forgiveness path, focusing on apay it off path, or if you have
private student loans which aremuch trickier to deal with and
you're not able to refinance,your interest rates are

(34:35):
ridiculous, what a settlement ora bankruptcy look like to solve
that problem.
And we just go through thosedifferent paths to figure out
what's the best solution forthis person.
Now people think of bankruptcyor settlement as these negative
things because they have quoteunquote disastrous effects on

(34:55):
their credit report or theircredit score.
But credit score is one of themost easy, manipulated kind of
financial things you can have.
You can recover from it in ayear, two year, three year time
frame.
But what about student loandebt that can haunt you for 20
years, 30 years, 40 years, right?
So sometimes we have to havethat conversation where we're
going to make a short termdecision to do something that

(35:16):
will hurt your credit score butwill lead to a better path for
you long term, and that's thetough cause we have to make.
There are very few things thatare instant You're out of this,
you're done with this debt.
That's usually not the case forpeople.
It's usually having a reallytough conversation and saying,
okay, what are all the thingsyou want to do?
How do we achieve those things?

(35:36):
Because I believe you can havea lot of this stuff you want,
but it's just a question of whenit's going to happen and what
are the steps we need to take toget there.
I think it goes back to how Ieven got into this.
Practice is kind of how thehell do I get to law school?
Okay, this is what I got to do.
Let's work backwards from there.

Speaker 1 (35:52):
Yeah, no, that makes total sense.
Is there for our audience whomight be considering this again?
We had that bankruptcyconversation as well and we know
that it's such a it can be alife changer, right?
I mean people think, oh, mycredit's going to tank and the
stigma around it is terrible,but again, people are getting
their life back through this.
It's a financial tool.

Speaker 3 (36:13):
Yeah, Let me give you a perfect example.
I have a mother and a son inChicago where the son borrowed
$200,000 for film school inprivate student loan debt and
the mother co-signed these loansand she has a house and they
were struggling, trying to paythe loans for two years, but

(36:34):
then the interest rates werevariable.
So their interest rates wentfrom 3% and they jumped up to
like 12% and now they're payingus like $4,000 a month and
they're like we can't do thiscombined.
The son has moved back in homeand he's living in the room he
grew up in because they'retrying to figure out a way to
pay it.
And they come to me and I saidyou know what, Honestly, the
only way out of this isbankruptcy.

(36:55):
Now, people, their first thingwas I thought bankruptcy
couldn't get rid of studentloans, Kind of your normal
chapter 7 or chapter 13.
Bankruptcy will not eliminateyour student loan debt.
But there's a second processcalled a student loan adversary
proceeding, which is a lawsuit,where you sue the lender and you
say this is an undue hardship,I can't afford to pay.

(37:15):
And then people say well, Iheard those cases were hard to
win.
Absolutely correct, the law isstacked against you.
However, this isn't a binarydecision.
It's not win or lose.
It's win, lose.
Or maybe I bring the lender tothe table to negotiate a
settlement with them, and that'sexactly what we did for this
mother-son combo.
We used that process to takethis now $280,000 debt and we

(37:41):
used it to negotiate asettlement of $80,000 at 0%
interest over 10 years withmonthly payments.
Now is that like them gettingrid of that?
No, but it is a clear path forrelief and they can actually
breathe and plan for the futureand save and do all these other
things.
But they had to go throughbankruptcy to get there and that
may feel like a loss when youdo it like you're admitting

(38:04):
defeat, but really it's probablythe most powerful thing you can
do in that moment to regainyour life back.

Speaker 1 (38:12):
Right, it's a life vest.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
Well, it's also definitely changing your thought
process around bankruptcy ingeneral, because rich people
don't view bankruptcy that way.
They have no problems using itas a tool to go ahead and reset
things and protect them.

Speaker 3 (38:25):
It's a tool in your toolbox, but we have these
hangups about things where we'remaking these like moral
proclamations about somethingversus what are all the tools
available to me to solve myproblem and I'm not saying
bankruptcy solves everyone'sproblem.
It's the last tool I usebecause I don't want you to have

(38:46):
to do that, but it is a toolthat's out there to solve your
problem and it can be reallyeffective in the right hands.

Speaker 1 (38:53):
Yeah, we've now had two attorneys on our podcast
tell us debt is morally neutral.
Right, having debt does notmake you a bad person.
So again, we need to shift thatmindset and then also saying
that bankruptcy is a tool in thetoolbox, right, it doesn't make
you bad, which is why becausethe companies you invest in they
have debt, they take out debtand there's a question just good

(39:17):
debt, bad debt, and what doesthat actually mean?

Speaker 3 (39:19):
But I have clients on the fire journey and everything
like that, or they're followinga Dave Ramsey type approach.
But I think the problem isactually much more nuanced than
that and if you just take thisall or nothing thing, I think
you're actually doing yourselfdisjustice there.

Speaker 1 (39:36):
Yeah Well, in a disservice right, Because
you're-.

Speaker 3 (39:39):
There we go Disservice, we'll take that one.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
You're eliminating a powerful tool in that toolbox
that can help you see the lightat the end of the tunnel.

Speaker 3 (39:48):
Yeah, the amount of people that are like, oh, I'm
going to grind my way out ofthis thing and now you're going
to spend six, seven years.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
Not at 12% variable interest.

Speaker 3 (39:57):
Yeah, I'm like man bro, you could have just been
done with this if you'd donethis thing Right.
But I also understand the valueof having done the work and you
get to tell yourself I did thisRight.
I think there are much moreeffective ways to get that type
of therapy that you need?

Speaker 1 (40:13):
Yes, Well, and two, how long is it going to take you
right?
What's on the other side ofthis?
That is, your energy is drained.
This is a constant thing onyour mind.
You're losing sleep.
You aren't enjoying the moneythat you are making because
you're just throwing it at yourstudent loans, hoping that
they're going to go down.
And we know when the interestis compounding on a daily rate.

(40:35):
You're never going to come outfrom under it.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
I mean, it comes down to that mindset where people
are like, oh, I took out thisdebt.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
It's my responsibility.

Speaker 2 (40:42):
It's my responsibility to pay it, and
they look at it as a lack oftheir self-character, not being
able to pay it back, even thoughthe odds were stacked against
them to begin with.

Speaker 1 (40:56):
Well and like you said, Stanley, you're 17, 18, 19
years old.
You don't understand the loanyou just took out.
Your parents don't understandyou took the loan that they just
took out.
I mean it's just awful,absolutely.

Speaker 3 (41:02):
But there is value in a society that says I incur
this obligation and I'm going tohonor this obligation, and I
think that's 1000% true.
That's how we should look atthese things.
But at a certain point you haveto ask yourself wait, what did
I sign up for and what is mylikelihood of actually being

(41:23):
able to tackle this problem onmy own, given my income and
given what I'm?
What's stacked against me?
And there are a few people thatactually really understand how
much of the student loan paymentis going towards principal and
how much is going towardsinterest.
I had a couple that met with methe other day.
They were making payments of$3,700 a month towards a student

(41:44):
loan.
Of that, only $300 was goingtowards their principal and
they're like wait, how long dowe keep doing this?
They're in their 60s, the peakof their earning potential, and
they're about to retire.
They're like, wait, how long dowe keep doing this?
They're in their 60s, the peakof their earning potential, and
they're about to retire.
They're like we can't keep thisup.
Yeah, no, no, no, duh, like youcan't.
But you're trying to do theright thing and I respect that.
But we have to look at what'son the other side, what is the

(42:06):
long-term plan here?
And those are hardconversations to have with
people, but I really enjoyhaving them because over time,
as I shared with you, I learnedthat it's not really the
solution, is not what people arereally looking for, because
they already kind of have anidea what that solution is, what
they're really.
They're looking for someone tosolve that emotional thing that

(42:26):
tells them you're not stupid,you're not a bad person, you
didn't do the wrong thing,person, you didn't do the wrong
thing.
We just had to figure out howdo we deal with this impossible
problem and put you in the bestsituation possible to live your
dreams, because all those thingscan happen.

Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, let's talk about that, because for anybody
listening, I mean that isdealing with, like soul crushing
student loan debt, we're goingto link all of the ways to get
in touch with you and youroffice in our show notes.
But for people listening whoare like, oh, my kid's a couple
years away from college, how doI avoid this?

(43:01):
What would you say to parentsor grandparents, or even people
who are going to be puttingthemselves through college,
about student loans, what toknow, what to look for, so that
they don't end up in thisposition?

Speaker 3 (43:13):
Well, I think you should always look towards
federal student loans first.
But before we get intoborrowing, I think if you're a
couple of years out, you have anopportunity to do a 529 plan.
Great, We'll do those.
Max out your other benefits andreally take a hard look at
whether or not school is rightfor you right now.
What is it that you're gettingout of it?
You have to have a much morechallenging conversation about

(43:35):
what am I going to school for?
Am I actually going to takethis seriously now, or am I just
kind of exploring, because Idon't know what the next thing
is for me and I'm really usingthis as a transitional phase and
that's a very costly phase togo through.
So I would have that discussionfirst.
Then, once I nail in okay, no,this is for me.
Okay.
What degree am I going for?
Okay, I want to do this as acareer.

(43:58):
I think, what is the?
What can I expect to earn overthe next 10 years upon
graduation?
Is this the right school for meto go to to maximize my odds of
that Right?
How much is that school goingto charge me?
Okay, great, Once I know allthose things and I can make a
better kind of understanding ofis this the right decision for
me?
Because too freely we justfocus in on I like this dorm, I

(44:21):
like this school, my friends aregoing there and that's not a
good decision to go to school atall.
It's such a huge financialcommitment that you really have
to look at.
What am I doing Now?
I preface.
I start off by saying federalstudent loans is the way to go,
only because in the side of thiscomplex student loan problem we
have it's only complex becausewe have so many different

(44:42):
repayment options and so manyforgiveness programs, and so you
may be able to leverage thoseto your benefit, especially
early on when you're graduating.
Your income is not stable.
Income-driven repayment plansare great.
They will let you pay what youcan truly afford to pay.
Private student loans won't letyou do that.
They're going to want theirmoney.
They're like family guy.
They're like Brian beating upon everybody like where's my

(45:03):
money, Where's my money, Where'smy money, and so it's like
that's how it goes.
So choosing federal is the wayto go because it has greater
flexibility.
That comes at a difference ofyour interest rate may be higher
than what you can get from theprivate market, but that kind of
difference.
I think it's worth it to youbecause you're getting greater
options of repayment, and sothat's how I look at it.

(45:26):
I think very few people shoulddo private student loans because
often you're not going to havethe flexibility you need to be
able to pay that debt back,because they're going to want
their money immediately.

Speaker 1 (45:38):
Yeah, those are great call outs.
We talk a lot about collegeisn't for everybody and every
career doesn't require a degree,and there's so many studies
coming out now, too that talkabout which careers legally
actually require a degree,versus a license, versus
certifications.
And then we also just recentlyhad a conversation with somebody

(46:00):
who focuses on the PMP for herclients, so getting that
professional project managementexperience and that
certification, because she, withan MBA, was getting passed up
by people for promotions thatdidn't have a college degree but
got their PMP.
And so what you said about youknow exploring well, what do you

(46:22):
want to do?
What's going to be that ROI?
What does this look like in 10years?
I think not enough people arehaving that conversation with
their children because they alsowant to be the one saying, oh,
my kid goes to this college,right, and it's like, oh,
they're doing the right thing,they're in college.

Speaker 3 (46:37):
There's some brand association that you want to
happen and it makes you feellike you did a good job as a
parent.
You want to be in church onthat Sunday where your kid is
shouting up and my baby went toHarvard, right, harvard, I get
it, I get it, I get it, I get it, I get it.
That said, I think the cost ofthose things are so great.

(47:00):
Let me ask you do you plan on,like, sending your kids to
college right away after highschool?

Speaker 1 (47:08):
Well, so we have 529s for them and we're very much of
the mindset, I mean, like ourdaughter's a very creative
person I mean our son is five,so who knows but we're very much
of the mindset of we're goingto talk to them about all of
those things.
Right, You're not just going togo to school because your
besties go in there.
You're not just going to pick acollege.
I mean, I picked my collegebecause my best friend was there

(47:29):
and I liked the campus.
So you totally hit the nail onthe head, right.
I didn't go because I knew whatI wanted to do with my life and
I knew which degree program.
And I mean I had a totalbreakdown two weeks before
graduation because I literallywas like what am I going to do
with my life?
And so we are very flexible andopen with hey, if you want to
work, you know, get that workexperience, get that customer

(47:50):
service experience, Understandhow projects work, Get your feet
into the workforce.
If you're not prepared to be inschool and you don't know what
that path is going to be for you, because we're not here to just
waste money.

Speaker 2 (48:04):
Yeah, I think the conversation is going to be a
lot more nuanced.
So for a little bit ofbackground, my mom is a college
professor, so the idea of megoing to college was, you know
not even the second thought Like.
I'm going to college and I thinkthe landscape has completely
changed, because I think ourgeneration was told that, hey,
you go to college, you're good,you're going to have a good job,
you don't have anything toworry about.

(48:24):
And we obviously know that'snot the case.
So, when it comes to our kids,I think one, I think you have to
see a change in how much schoolcosts, because it can't keep
going up the way that it is,because people are going to stop
going because they're not goingto get that ROI.
So I think it's definitelyhaving a more nuanced
conversation as they get older.
And like what is it that yousee yourself doing?

(48:45):
Like what?

Speaker 1 (48:46):
I think we need a degree, you need a degree to do
it.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
Or, like you know, I think somebody was always.
I heard somebody say startasking your kids what problems
in the world do you want tosolve?
Not what do you want to be whenyou grow up?
Because the reality is thatprobably the job that our kids
are going to have doesn't existat this point in time.

Speaker 3 (49:03):
I thought a lot about that because I have a
two-year-old down there and Imeet so many people that take
out debt and I wonder what wouldmy advice truly be.
Would my advice truly be and Ithink where I'm at, at least
today, is that I'd want to givemy kid as many problems to solve
as possible along the journeyso they encounter different

(49:25):
problems to solve and find out,oh, I like this thing.
And also, if you learn to solveproblems, you can pretty much
do whatever you want in thisworld.
The degree part doesn'tactually matter, right, because
when we look at things, a lot ofprofessionals I meet, all
they're really good at issolving problems.
You give them a problem, theyfind the resource to solve it
and I value those things.
So should someone you're saying,oh, I'll talk to my kid about

(49:48):
going to school or not, andyou're also saying there may not
be the jobs tomorrow as theyare today, like what's the
future?
Look like man.
And I feel like my conversationhas been a lot of doom and
gloom apart.
Like student loan debt, it's abad thing, but I think at the

(50:09):
end of the day, I do believe inthe quality of education.
I just think in kind of theworthwhile value it gives you.
Going away to school and livingin dorms is the most
transformative thing you canhave for yourself sometimes, and
like learning that independenceespecially like now with kids
who are like have helicopterparents over them at all time
and don't give them theindependence to walk around,

(50:30):
like the idea of a kid justbeing gone at 10 years old all
day is like wild.
And yet what I want that for akid only within the context of
they have something they cantruly afford to pay back, that
they're not hamstrung and thatmay mean that they need to
sacrifice on the schools they goto.
They may not know what degreepath they want, but they know
what, as you said, what problemsthey want to solve in this

(50:51):
world.
And how do you get themprepared for that?
Tough question, bro.

Speaker 2 (50:56):
It's very interesting you say that, because I think
one of the biggest things I tookaway from going to college was
the experience of, like you know, my freshman year living in a
dorm with like six, seven otherguys that, like, we're all
different people from alldifferent backgrounds and we had
to figure out how to interactwith each other and get along
with each other to a point whereyou don't need to be best
friends, but we are living inclose quarters.

Speaker 3 (51:16):
We just don't need to be a Lord of the flies either.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
Yeah, we need to coexist.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
So, like understanding all the
differences and nuances, because, you know, luckily I was in a
scenario, even with our collegenot having a ton of black people
.
I had another black guy in mydorm but we were one of like
seven and we were the two out ofthe seven.
So, you know, I had a roommateof mine who only, like,
basically only went to schoolwith one black kid before

(51:40):
because he went to privateschool.
So, you know, navigating thosedifferent nuances is is is life
changing, you know, in regardsto dealing with the world.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
You don't have to get $200,000 in debt to do that
right, you can do that you knowworking outside of the home as
well and getting you knowgetting your feet wet in that
job experience as well, I mean,but again, that intentionality.

Speaker 3 (52:02):
The hardest part, the one hard part to replicate is
the idea of extricating yourselffrom your neighborhood and your
family that you're familiarwith and going to a totally new
world and trying to figure outhow to survive there.
And there's so much value inthat part and I don't know how
you actually replicate that inthe job world where, like, oh

(52:25):
yeah, sure, but you still liveat home or you live in a
neighborhood you grew up in,you're not really associating
with different people.
You're not really associatingwith different people and the
only way I can think of is, likeyou know, military.
AmeriCorps, peace Corps typesituation, some type of mission
or whatever, and I think there'sreal value in those type of

(52:47):
programs.
Or if you're going to send yourkid to school, I think I
strongly encourage you to lookto study abroad in those schools
, and there's so many ways to dothat Not as scary as hell,
because we don't like sendingour babies someplace that we
can't get to within a car drive.
I get that, but, like you know,if you're trying to set your
kid up for success, I think wereally have to look at what

(53:07):
we're actually like signing themup for with school overall in
our current system.

Speaker 1 (53:13):
No, that's a great call out.
I love that, Stanley.
This has been a greatconversation.
You were going to say something.

Speaker 3 (53:21):
Well, thank you.
I'm like over here, deep inthought, just thinking about how
do?
I feel about all of this.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
Cause these are really tough problems.

Speaker 3 (53:33):
Yeah, these are really tough conversations to
have, and usually I'm not on thefront end of the conversation,
I'm on the back end, trying tosolve a problem that already
exists, and so thinking aboutthe front end is refreshing, but
, man, there aren't any greatanswers.

Speaker 2 (53:50):
I think it's also very hard because I think a bulk
majority of the population like, for example, with a parent is
that they're trying to provide abetter life for their child.
So they don't know this becausethey haven't experienced it
firsthand.
So in their mind they're justthinking best school that equals
the best opportunities.

Speaker 1 (54:06):
And whatever it takes .

Speaker 2 (54:07):
That's not necessarily the case.

Speaker 3 (54:09):
Nah, man, I got a.
My bonus daughter goes to adamn private school that costs
$32,000 a year bro.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
And what grade is she in?

Speaker 3 (54:19):
Fifth grade.
Fifth grade why?
Because her father believesthat that's going to set up your
trajectory to make it to theschool that he ultimately wants
her to go to, which is an IvyLeague institution.
I don't know that.
That means that the return oninvestment there is going to
demonstrably increase your odds,right Like to making it happen.

Speaker 2 (54:41):
Or can you just take?

Speaker 3 (54:42):
that money and hire a private tutor and get some
other stuff going on.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
In my mind as the financial advisor, I'm thinking
like $30,000 plus a year.
Why don't you just put that inan account and it grows compound
interest and she's going to bea multimillionaire beforehand
and she can write her own path.

Speaker 3 (54:59):
Yeah, but that's not the problem that that person may
be trying to solve, though,right, a lot of times my child
went here and that's what we'rereally trying to solve, not
actually financial success orthat security there.
And that's so tough about allof this success or that security
there and that's so tough aboutall of this.
You, I don't know that we'reactually clear on what thing
inside of us we're trying tosolve as we go on this journey,

(55:21):
which is much more deepermetaphor, you know, kind of this
ephemeral question that we haveto answer.

Speaker 2 (55:25):
I think for people of color there is definitely that
extra like.
I want to prove that I belongas well.
So you know, trying to go tosome of these institutes.

Speaker 3 (55:33):
Bro, you know what's wild is.
How many times has anyone askedyou like where you went to
school at?

Speaker 1 (55:39):
I mean maybe right out of college, when you're like
early 20s, exactly like yourprofessional journey.

Speaker 3 (55:44):
Can you solve my problem?
Yes or no, that's all, anyonecares about yeah nobody's like
oh, where did you go to school?

Speaker 1 (55:52):
Right, Nobody's asking where you went to school
before asking.
Can you solve my problem?

Speaker 3 (55:57):
It's so true.
Yeah, no one's like.
Did you graduate with honors?
Were you on law review?
None of that stuff comes up.
Did you do these clerkships?
My parents don't even know whatthe hell clerkship means Most
people don't know what lawreview means.
Right, you know what I'm saying,but that's the thing is like,
what problem are you actuallytrying to solve?
And get clear with that as aparent, are you really trying to

(56:18):
solve some inside yourselfwhere you felt like you didn't
perform up to where you wantedto go or achieved your dream?
So now you're pushing that onyour child, or do?

Speaker 1 (56:33):
you feel like you're being a bad parent because you
tell your child.

Speaker 3 (56:35):
No, you can't go to that school for these financial
reasons that I'm trying toprotect you from.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
Yeah, those are questions we're not going to be
able to answer.
I know we're not going to beable to answer that on the pod,
but I think what I'm hearing isyou need to, especially as a
parent.
You need to have someintrospection of why do I want
my child to go to thisinstitution, what is it actually
going to cost and what is theROI in the long run?
And then understanding if yourchild is not ready, if they're
not committed, if they don'tunderstand what they want to do
with their life, right, like, dowe need to go and get a

(57:00):
business degree orcommunications degree or do we
just need to go and get somework experience or some life
experience?
And making sure that we're notputting these pressures on the
kids to have it all figured outby 19, 20 years old, because it
could end up costing you.

Speaker 3 (57:17):
Yeah, I mean, I didn't have my stuff together
till I was 26, 27 and bytogether enough to kind of
understand what I wanted to dowith my life.
And that was later in life.
I didn't truly have everythingtogether till maybe 35, but you
know, some things happen in mylife, reason where I learned oh,
I'm still on a journey offiguring out my life at 44 years
old.
It is a journey.

Speaker 1 (57:40):
It is a journey and that's okay.
I think, if we show our kidsthat, like you, don't have to
have it all together by yourearly 20s and that most of us
didn't, I think that's probablyvery comforting to them.
But this analysis ofunderstanding what do these
loans really mean for theirfuture, or your future as a
parent, I mean those are vitalconversations and thoughts that

(58:01):
people need to have beforesigning on that dotted line.

Speaker 3 (58:05):
Do you find that you talk to your friends about this
type of stuff, about school andhow they think about it?

Speaker 1 (58:11):
We do.

Speaker 2 (58:11):
We do.

Speaker 1 (58:12):
I think we're the odd ones.
Yeah, we're the odd ones,though, because we really are
trying to understand how peoplefeel about it.
You know, we have kids.
We have friends who have kidsin college, and we also have
friends who have toddlers withthat weird age younger younger
than our kids, and so you'rekind of in that mix of like.
Do you have a 529?
How did you pay for college?

(58:32):
Oh, the grandparents arecovering the.
You know, like everybody's kindof in a different boat, but
opening up Right, but so that'sthe financial consideration part
.

Speaker 3 (58:40):
But like just the conversation about what's
driving the kid to go to schoolor what's driving you to want
them, do you find that you'reable to have those conversations
, everything kind oftransactional based?

Speaker 2 (58:50):
We have both of those .
Only reason, I would say that'sbecause, as I can speak to
myself as far as being fortunateenough, that college was.
You know, like I said, itwasn't even a second thought I
was going my mom paid for.
You know, I had somescholarship money but my mom
paid anything else for me to goto college, so that wasn't an
issue at all.
And I understand, as someonewho was privileged, that college
is not the end, all be all andthat you need to figure out what

(59:13):
it is that you want to do andwhat that looks like and what it
takes to get there.
Because I always say I've metextremely intelligent people
that have just a high schooldegree, maybe barely got out of
high school, and I met peoplewho have doctorate degrees that
are idiots.
So there's no directcorrelation.

Speaker 1 (59:29):
Yeah Well, and even for your career.
Now you don't need to have abachelor's degree to get your
licenses.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
Technically no.

Speaker 1 (59:35):
And so have any of your clients ever said, well,
where did you go to college?

Speaker 2 (59:39):
No, right, because again nobody cares, but they
also kind of just assume youwent to college.

Speaker 1 (59:43):
Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's important to have
those conversations of like,looking inside yourself and
being like, well, am I trying tomaintain this legacy?
Am I trying to maintain thislegacy?
Am I trying to get the shoutout at church on a Sunday that
my kid goes to Harvard?
You know, whatever it is, Imean, figure out what it is and
why that's important to you andis it going to actually be worth
it in the end?

Speaker 3 (01:00:02):
Yeah, that's the thing.
I just wonder how thoseconversations go, especially as
we've become more and moresiloed in our relationships
through COVID and beyond, wherewe may be needing to get back
out there and starting to engagemore and have these type of
conversations because I'm hopingwe have moved past the you need

(01:00:23):
to go to college, becausethat's what's next after high
school part and having a muchmore exploratory conversation
about, okay, what do we need todo?
Because, dude, this is like thepromise to loan debt it might
as well be tobacco with theskull and bones on the package.
At this point, like you know,what you're signing up for like
is a sentence of pain.

(01:00:43):
So what are you going to doabout it?
How are you going to helpmitigate these things?
I just I wonder how people arehaving this conversation, cause
I, truthfully, I don't have them.
Um, the people in my kind ofdirect path.
They are generally sendingtheir kids to legacy
institutions, and so I wentthere.

(01:01:05):
My kid will go there, to Dukeor to Hampton university or to
Howard or to Penn, right, andthere's not a thought of it
other than that's what's goingto happen, because that's what's
supposed to happen.
Also, we're supposed to summerin the Hamptons, which is wild
that I know people that summerin the Hamptons.
So whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
This is like a crazy life journey.
Oh my gosh, stanley, we couldtalk to you for hours.
This has been a really greatconversation.
Hopefully, people are going towalk away from this conversation
having those thoughtsespecially if they have younger
children about why is it that Iwant my child to go to this
school or that school or collegeat all, et cetera.
So hopefully you have sparkedthat thought in our audience and

(01:01:48):
thank you for being a resourceto people who are struggling
under this.
You know crushing student loandebt and you're helping give
them the much needed resolvethat people are not finding, so
thank you for the work thatyou're doing as well.

Speaker 3 (01:02:01):
Thank you.
I hope your audience can getthrough the unstructured nature
of this conversation and peersthrough kind of the mental model
of it all, which is, I think,that's the more valuable thing.
We want a checklist of stufflike do this, do this, do this,
but I don't think this problemis one of those.
Do this, do this.
It's not a step.
It's really kind of thinkingthrough what problem am I

(01:02:22):
actually trying to solve hereand what is the most efficient
way to get it done?

Speaker 1 (01:02:27):
Yeah, thank you so much for walking us through that
.

Speaker 3 (01:02:31):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
Don't forget.
Benjamin Franklin said aninvestment in knowledge pays the
best interest.
You just got paid, until nexttime.

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
Sugar Daddy Podcast.
Yo Learn how to make thempockets grow.
Financial freedom's where we goSmart investments, money flow.

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