76: Eve Rodsky on Rebalancing Equity and the Price of Unpaid Labor in your Home

Ever found yourself buried under household tasks, wondering why the balance feels so off? In this episode, Jess and Brandon unravel the complexities of invisible work with Eve Rodsky, author of "Fair Play" and "Find Your Unicorn Space," as she shares the often-unseen challenges of unpaid labor in relationships. The discussion reveals the significant emotional and cognitive burdens women face as the typically designated caregivers and home managers, underlining the need for equitable partnership to alleviate these. In detailing her transformative "blueberry breakdown," Eve reveals how recognizing and redistributing unpaid labor can help revolutionize domestic dynamics.

With compelling stories and practical insights, this episode offers a fresh perspective on the power of equity and the potential for meaningful transformation within our homes. 

What’s talked about In this episode:

• Understanding the concept of the second shift and emotional labor 
• Eve's personal journey leading to the the NYT bestselling book, "Fair Play" 
• The impact of upbringing and societal norms on domestic responsibilities 
• Strategies for achieving equitable division of labor in partnerships 
• The transformative effects of shared responsibilities on relationships and individual well-being

Watch this episode in video form on YouTube

Leave us a question in the form of a voicemail 

You can email us at: [e-mail]

Be sure to connect with us on socials @thesugardaddypodcast we are most active on Instagram

Learn more about Brandon and schedule a free 30-minute introductory call with him here: https://www.oakcityfinancial.us

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
And so that day was a day that I felt less shame,
because even these strong womenthat I really admired were going
through the same thing that Iwas, and so I felt like, oh my
God, if none of us are immune tothese issues, then maybe this
is a bigger problem.

(00:20):
And so that's when theresearcher hat really came on to
understand that this phenomenonthat we're talking about had a
name, a couple names actuallythe second shift, unpaid labor,
emotional labor, cognitive laborand invisible work.
That was my favorite one, jessand Brandon, because it came
from 1986, an article I read,and the woman, the sociologist,

(00:45):
was arguing that unfortunatelyshe didn't believe that women's
work in the home would ever bevisible, because visibility in
our society equals value, and ifwe gave value to the unpaid
labor, we'd have to pay for itor we'd have to acknowledge it.
And the invisibility is what isallowing America to have women

(01:07):
as our social safety net, andthat is something that we need
for a capitalist patriarchy tothrive.
And so she argued that we wouldnever make the invisible
visible.
So then I got mad at her andsaid well, I'm going to make the
invisible visible, and Istarted with the Should I Do?
Spreadsheet.
And that's how Fair Play began,hey, babe.

Speaker 3 (01:39):
What are we talking about?
Something that I think everymother, parent, working person,
especially working person with afamily, feels deeply in their
soul, and that is that secondshift, that mental load, the
five to nine after working, anine to five, the oh my gosh,

(02:01):
who's going to do the toothfairy money?
What about the goodie bags forthe classroom party?
The crap that inundates ourminds.
That is what we're talkingabout today.
And before you're like, no, Idon't want to hear abouting
because I read her New YorkTimes bestselling book, fair

(02:27):
Play, when we had a one-year-oldand we were drowning and then
we found out we were pregnant,and then we were in a pandemic
with two under two and I waslike, oh my gosh, how do we come
up from air?
And Eve really, really helpedus come up for air.

(02:47):
And so, eve, we are so, sothrilled to have you with us
today.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
Oh my gosh, I'm so happy to be here and it's been
fun to listen to you and I loveyour banter and I'm just happy
to be here oh, thank you.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
Well, I think you know partially, our banter is
because we're still happilymarried.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Because, thanks to your book, we figured it out.

Speaker 3 (03:09):
You helped us get there, so thank you so much.
For anybody who is not familiarwith Eve's work, let's get into
this incredible bio, becauseyou really have put in the work
for this book and to helpfamilies come up for air and
really figure out a system thatworks in their home.

(03:31):
And it's all about equity, notequality.
I think we all realize nothingwill ever be equal in a home,
but we can find equity betweenthe roles, whether you're in a
heteronormative relationship orotherwise, finding what works
for you.
All of our relationships, ofcourse, are our own and they're
personal, but you've really puta system in place to help us

(03:53):
figure that out.
So let's get into this bio andthen we'll follow up with your
money memory and get into howthis all came to be.
Okay, perfect.

(04:20):
Her New York Times bestsellingbook and Reese's Book Club pick
Fair Play, a gamified lifemanagement system that helps
partners rebalance theirdomestic workload and reimagine
their relationship, has elevatedthe cultural conversation about
the value of unpaid labor andcare.
So much unpaid labor.
In her highly anticipatedfollow-up Find your Unicorn

(04:43):
Space Reclaim your Creative Lifein a Too Busy World.
She explores the cross-sectionbetween the science of
creativity, productivity andresilience, described as the
antidote to physical, mental andemotional burnout.
Rodsky aims to inspire anarrative around the equality of
time and the individual rightto personal time choice that

(05:04):
influences sustainable andlasting change on a policy level
.
Her work is backed by HelloSunshine, reese Witherspoon's
media company, whose mission isto change the narrative for
women through storytelling.
Rotsky was born and raised by asingle mom in New York City and
now lives in LA with herhusband, Seth and their three
children.
Welcome, eve, thank you.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
Oh, thank you for that bio.

Speaker 3 (05:26):
Oh, how do you feel about it?
It's a big bio.
You should be so proud.

Speaker 1 (05:31):
It's.
You know, I actually feel morealigned with your statement
about raising children duringthe pandemic.
That's what really triggered me.
It was a hard time.

Speaker 3 (05:44):
It was.
It was a hard time for so manyof us and I'll tell you I
listened.
I'm an audiobook girl throughand through.
If I read a book I'm going tofall asleep.
So I have to do audio audibleor audio.
And when I heard your voicetalk about the blueberry
breakdown, when I tell you Idon't know that I've ever felt
so seen in my entire life.

(06:05):
So for anybody who is an audiobook person, I cannot recommend
Fair Play enough, because itreally is just like the
conversations that you have withyour girlfriends around, just
all the stuff you know, thenever ending to do list.
And so we're going to get intothat blueberry breakdown because
that is, I know that's reallythe catalyst.

(06:25):
I know it really is the catalystfor this extraordinary journey
you've been on.
But before we get there, raisedwith a single mom, I'm sure you
have an incredible first moneymemory.
Can you walk us through that?

Speaker 1 (06:40):
Oh, absolutely.
My first money memory wasgetting an eviction notice under
the door.
We lived in a place called Sivesin Town, which is a rent
stabilized sort of middle classworking class housing project in
Alphabet City in New York City,and I remember my mother worked

(07:02):
nights.
She was a teacher, a professor,so she worked nights and I would
be home with my younger brotherand I remember a blue piece of
paper being pushed under ourdoor and what I remember about
the eviction notice was I thinkI was a relatively new reader, I
must have been like third gradeand and all I could you know as

(07:25):
a young reader process wassomething that said you will be,
you know, basically out of ahome, and so I didn't understand
the context that my mother wasoverwhelmed with all the unpaid
labor and that she just hadforgotten to pay our bills, or
that you know it was.
She was paying rent on creditcard debt, but I didn't have the

(07:48):
context for that.
All I thought when I saw thatblue piece of paper was that we
were going to be homeless and,and so that that was probably my
my first and and one of my mostformative money memories and
one of my most formative moneymemories.

Speaker 3 (08:08):
Have you been listening to our podcast and
wondering how am I really doingwith my money?
Am I doing the right thingswith my investments?
Am I on track to reach myfinancial goals?
What could I be doing better?
If you answered yes to any ofthese questions, then it's time
for you to reach out to Brandonto schedule your free yes, I
said free 30-minute introductionconversation to see how his

(08:31):
services could help make you themore confident moneymaker we
know you could be.
What are you waiting for?
It's literally free and at thevery least, you'll walk away
feeling more empowered andconfident about your financial
future.
Link is in our show notes.
Go, schedule your call today.
I mean that being able to readpart of that notice even I mean

(08:55):
that would definitely beformative.
What do you think you havegained, or how has that shown up
in your life today and the workthat you thought you would do?
I mean, obviously you are aHarvard trained attorney by
background.
I mean you don't get therewithout hard work.
So did you have like a momentwhere you're like this is never

(09:18):
going to happen in my adult life?
Or how have you absolutely,absolutely.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, for me it was absolutely
formative.
I did not want to be my motherand until Fair Play and I really
started to understand andbecome an expert on the gender
division of labor Jess yeah, I'man expert on the gender
division of labor.
Brandon, not probably your mostanticipated podcast to have?

Speaker 3 (09:46):
to sit through.

Speaker 1 (09:48):
But, but.
But that wasn't on my thirdgrade.
What do you want to be when yougrow up?
Bored right To be an expert onthe gender division of labor?
But it all actually startedwith, you know, the explosion of
having a mother who did it alland saying that I didn't want
that life and trying to build alife where I had an equal

(10:10):
partner, and then watching thatcompletely break down in shame
and exhaustion.
I did everything to try to bethe antithesis of a single
mother raising two children,working nights, and I thought I
had built that partnership until, as you said, jess, I had a lot

(10:36):
of breakdowns, but one that wasreally memorable, which I write
about in Fair Play.
As you said, my blueberriesbreakdown.

Speaker 3 (10:45):
The blueberries breakdown.
Well, thank you for sharingthat formative memory, because
that I'm sure was hard toprocess then and even reflecting
now.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
I mean that's you know, these memories shape us
and they stay with us.

Speaker 3 (10:57):
And then having your own children, you're like I'm
going to do it different, youknow, which is a whole nother
added level of stress that Ithink any parent who strives to
be a good parent and do betterknow better for their kids, you
know, deals with on a dailybasis.
So thank you for sharing that.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
And later with the fair play cards.
I just want to say I want toplay something with you to
remind me I want to play thegame.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
Oh, I've got them right here.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
Perfect.
The therapists have been usingthem in a way that sort of helps
us tell some of those storiesthat you ask about.
So I was thinking when I waslistening to you about money
memories, I was like, ooh, Iwant to just ask them a question
later on, but not yet.
Sorry, brandon, you go.

Speaker 3 (11:35):
Let's do it.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
No, I was just going to say that I always find it
very interesting to hearpeople's stories of being raised
by more than likely a singleparent, but most often a single
mother, because I was raised bymore than likely a single parent
, but most often a single mother, because I was raised by a
single mom as well.
She raised my brother and I,but I'm so blessed and lucky
that finances was not an issuein our household, thankfully.
So, it's, you know, looked verydifferent.
I would say that my upbringingwas much better than probably

(11:58):
most people that have twoparents, and it's just always
interesting to hear you knowthose dynamics of what happens,
you know, with a single parent.
Now, granted, I know she wasoverwhelmed, I know she would
have the same problems thatyou're, you know your mother
probably have from beingoverwhelmed, because they're
doing everything outside of justworking.

Speaker 3 (12:14):
Yeah, but I think that that's the key, what really
resonated and I'm sure youwould say this too is even when
you have great spouses like Sethor like a Brandon, sometimes
it's still not enough, right,because we're missing that
foundation of a system in ourhome.
And so that, I think, is reallywhat spoke to me in the book.

(12:39):
Is that, no, I have a husbandwho does laundry.
I have a husband who will emptythe dishwasher.
I have a husband who will do mydaughter's hair, or our
daughter's hair.
How is that not enough?
And then you know, my heartbreaks for the people who don't
have that and are really, reallydoing it all.
But putting that system inplace really is so, so important
.
So can we kick it off with theblueberries breakdown?

Speaker 2 (13:10):
Before we get to that real quick, I do want to, you
know, specify to the men outthere.
You have to be open to havingthis conversation and not taking
it as criticism or an attack onyou.
So please listen to thispodcast without getting upset.
Just be open to the idea of,you know, making your
relationship better.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
That's a good call.
Thanks, brandon.
What I will say is that I hadthis one CEO who said to me, you
know, I got through your book,which I was like, oh, thank you
for saying that.
And he said and the reason whyI got through the whole thing
was because the first half, youknow, I didn't.
I thought I was going to put itdown because it was so full of
anger, but the second half is sofull of solutions.

(13:40):
And I was like well, thank youfor accepting female anger.
I appreciate you getting throughit, but, but I but again, I do
think that if you stay alongwith us, some of this will go
dark, but then we do go light,because the good news is that
fair play works, the systemswork.
The only way to end bias, as weknow, one of the best ways is

(14:04):
structured decision making.
So we're going to talk abouthow great it is when you have
tools to make things moreefficient.
You get time back, but I dothink it's important to give
context, which is anger andsadness, which is exactly where
you know sort of thatblueberries breakdown starts.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
Yeah, let's get into it.
Tell everyone and you know,don't listen to this podcast and
then not read the book.
Read the book because it is agem of a book, and then get the
cards as well.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
But we'll get into that.
Thank you, look for me again.
As I said, I did not aspire tobe an expert on the gender
division of labor.
It was not what I had writtenin my what Do you want to be
when you grow up?
Bored in elementary school, itwasn't, in fact, what I answered
when Elizabeth Warren she wasour orientation teacher before

(14:54):
she was a Senator fromMassachusetts in law school and
she asked us, jess and Brandon,what do we want to do with your
law degree?
And without sarcasm, Ilegitimately said something like
president of the United States,you know, senator from New York
and Nick City dancer, andpreferably all at the same time,
because it was sort of thatlegally blonde era where you

(15:14):
know what, like it's hard, well,it turns out, it is really hard
.
But so in in 1999, when I saidthat I thought, you know, I'd be
smashing all these glassceilings.
And then, you know, if youreally look at my life, when I
had the blueberries breakdown in2011, 10, you know, basically

(15:35):
10 years later, the only thing Ican actually, you know,
legitimately say I was smashing,you know, was like peas for my
toddler, zach, while nursing anewborn baby, while desperately
trying to grasp at straws, tohold on to a corporate job that
didn't want me back, that gaveaway my direct reports and told
me if I wanted to breastfeed itwould have to be in a supply

(15:55):
closet.
And that context is importantbecause that is the context in
which I was operating aworkplace that abandoned me my
dreams that I thought I wasgoing to have 10 years earlier
sort of you know by the wayside.
And then, on top of it, sort ofthe person closest to me, my

(16:16):
husband Seth, as I was racing toget my toddler from a toddler
transition program which inAmerica you know they last like
seven minutes and they cost ourentire salaries Around this time
sends me this text that saysyou know, I'm surprised you
didn't get blueberries.
And if it wasn't for thatcontext, yes, I don't think you

(16:38):
know, without the context it'sunderstandable, especially to
men, men, why that would havecaused an entire movement, not
just a book.
But at the time, what happenedto me was, when I got the I'm
surprised you didn't getblueberries text, I pulled over
to the side of the road which wedon't do lightly in LA because
of traffic and I was late topick up Zach, that toddler, and

(17:00):
I just sat there crying, and Iwas crying not just because Seth
was ascribing to me that I wasthe fulfiller of his smoothie
needs, but I think what I wasreally crying for was that I was
the default.
I started to feel like there wasno end to this mess of a tunnel
that I was in, where I was thedefault or, as I call in Fair

(17:23):
Play, the she-fault forliterally every single household
task for my family, and what Irealized was I was living a
statistic, jess and Brandon,that I didn't even know at the
time, which is that womenshoulder two-thirds or more of
what it takes to run a home andfamily, regardless of whether
they work outside the home, andactually the amount of invisible

(17:45):
, unpaid work that they handleincreases as the money they make
increases.
And so we know this is not awork problem, this is a gender
problem.
And so that breakdown on theside of the road.
I think back now to that day,and even if I hadn't created the
Fair Play system, even if Ididn't have an institute that's

(18:07):
fighting for paid leave andchildcare and to make things
easier for all of our families,even without that, if I had just
known that statistic, that Iwasn't alone that other women
shouldered two thirds or more ofwhat it took to run a home and
family, I think I would havebeen in a better place.

Speaker 3 (18:31):
Yeah, especially when you have young children and
you're working, and whetheryou're career oriented or not,
whether you're in a corporatelifestyle or not, there's so
much about motherhood,especially, that's so isolating,
even when you know you're notalone.
And so when I listened to thatbook and I was thinking this is
a Harvard-trained attorney.
I think, and correct me if I'mwrong, but you were talking

(18:51):
about you had file folders onyour lap.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
You had the breast pump next to you.

Speaker 3 (18:57):
And then here's the audacity of Seth asking you
about the blueberries, and it'slike, oh my God, I god, I felt
the rage yeah, he chose violencethat day yeah, yeah, I felt the
rage.

Speaker 1 (19:09):
You know what else could I do for you, seth?
What else could I fucking dofor this family, you know?

Speaker 2 (19:15):
she knows I would never send her that text, only
because there's certain theremight be things that you think
in your head.
But then like you gotta take asecond and pause, like yeah,
this is probably not going tocome through the way that you
had just walked out of thegrocery store, Right, it's.

Speaker 3 (19:27):
It's that context of what you described about, you
know, feeling rejected at work,and just I mean there's just so
much that goes into.

Speaker 1 (19:36):
And let me tell you one other area I was rejected.
So around that time, or maybeeven like the day after I had
the rejection from work and, asyou said, I'm trying to start a
new law firm with all these youknow papers on my lap, I have
Seth with this bizarrely passiveaggressive that Brandon
wouldn't send texts.
I'm surprised you didn't getblueberries.

(20:00):
Okay.
So that means right, like Ifailed you right, or whatever
that the context of that was,which was so frustrating, but at
the same time, I was so I wasactually very hopeful because I
just started that toddlertransition program I was telling
you about.
That's where I was on the way towhen I had the breakdown and

(20:22):
that's where people told me itwas going to get easier.
Guys, I don't know if you feltthat way too, but people said to
me, like when you get to school, you're going to start having a
community, you're going to havepeople who help you, you'll
have more time.
And so when I get to the school, not only am I being failed by
my husband and my workplace, butI get to the school and the

(20:46):
preschool teacher echoes.
You know, welcome to thetransition program.
We're all happy to see you here.
These are going to be peoplearound you that are going to be
friends for your lifetime.
They're going to know youbetter than anyone's ever known
you.
And then, as she's saying this,I'm looking down at my name tag
and my name tag says Zach's mom.

Speaker 3 (21:07):
Talk about not having an identity.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
These people are going to be the people who know
me better than anyone's everknown me.
They don't even know my name.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
This is definitely must be an LA thing.

Speaker 3 (21:22):
I mean, but that's just like icing on the terrible
shit cake.
At that point I mean that'sexactly.

Speaker 1 (21:28):
it was this idea that there was no identity for me
outside of being Zach's mom orthe filler the filler we have 10
years later, that women,constantly in 33 territories and
countries where fair playexists and we have data say to

(21:52):
me that they don't believe theyhave a permission to be
unavailable from their roles asa parent, partner and or
professional, and that breaks myheart.

Speaker 3 (22:02):
It is heartbreaking because it's so much pressure.
You know it's so much I meanthink about what we do and I'll
speak for women inheteronormative relationships
but what we do when we are sick,when we have a fever, when we
have a migraine, when we don'tfeel good, compared to no
offense what men do.

Speaker 1 (22:24):
I don't get sick often, he doesn't get sick often
, but there are times wherehe'll be like what men do?
I don't get sick often, hedoesn't get sick often, but
there are times where he'll be.

Speaker 3 (22:28):
Like babe, do I have a fever and I'm like all right.

Speaker 1 (22:32):
You're fine.

Speaker 2 (22:34):
I'm like suck it up, buttercup, you'll be okay,
You're going to make it when Iget sick, since I don't get sick
often.
I get sick, sick, yeah, yeah,but's still.
You know what I'm?

Speaker 1 (22:44):
saying you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 3 (22:47):
the man flu is a thing yeah I agree yeah, let's
transition from the blueberriesbreakdown into what happened,
because it lit a fire in you.
And now you've got, you know,two best-selling books, you've
got an entire institute ofresearch behind you, decades of

(23:07):
experience.
What happened after Zach's momand the name tag?

Speaker 1 (23:16):
Well, what was?
I put my researcher hat onbecause, as you you know, you
kindly said, I'm a, I'm a lawyerand a researcher and and, and I
decided that I would start tounderstand what was happening to
me.
And one of the best things thathappened around that time that
I write about in Fair Play thatJess knows, was because of the

(23:38):
blueberries breakdown.
I was more open to see what washappening around me, and so I
write about this experienceright after that, where I'm at
this breast cancer march for afriend who had been recently
diagnosed and being with verypowerful women we had like a
stroke and trauma doctor there,like a award-winning producer,
and they're not all married tomen, but the ones who were I was

(24:01):
more aware of all of us.
It was a Saturday morning, sothat's extra hard because you're
leaving little kids, you knowsomewhere and at home and asking
for childcare, and so we're alltogether at this march on a
Saturday morning and then aroundnoon everyone gets really quiet
and we were supposed to begoing to lunch and then I
started hearing like moans, likeoh, I probably should get home,

(24:23):
I'm going to skip lunch, andand so then I start to look over
people's shoulders, the womenI'm with and I'm like, ooh,
what's happening over here?
And what I realized was thatthe women married to men were
responding to texts and phonecalls.
And they were texts and phonecalls like where did you put
Hudson's soccer bag?
Um, what's the address of thebirthday party?

(24:45):
Did you want me to take?
You know, lily, and did youbring me a gift?
Um, do the?
You know where's Anna's pants?
You know I mean questions likethat.
But my favorite, my favoritequestion that I screenshot and I
had on a bulletin board for areally long time was my friend
Kate's husband Remember this isnoon on a Saturday and his texts

(25:07):
said to her do the kids need toeat lunch?

Speaker 3 (25:14):
It's just.
I cannot wrap my head around it.
I cannot.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
I don't even have to say, because they're just making
.
These guys are just making allof us look bad.

Speaker 3 (25:23):
I mean yeah, yeah, it's true.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
Yeah, yeah, and, and remember, you know it's also,
this is uh, 2012.
So, you know, we, we, I, I dobelieve we've made progress, but
, um, but back then, uh, nobodywas talking about these issues.
There was not even social mediain any meaningful way.
But what was fascinating to mewas that that was my first act

(25:47):
of resistance, cause JustinBrandon you're asking me about.
You know what happened afterthe the?
I got to take some power backbecause, even though those women
weren't willing to stay to eatthe dim sum and stay for lunch,
because they left their partnerswith too much to do, and so
they did leave me to go bring aperfectly wrapped gift to a
birthday party and find Hudson'ssoccer bag, but what I did ask

(26:10):
for them to do is count up howmany phone calls and texts we
had received, and it was prettyjarring it was 30 phone calls
and 46 texts for 10 women, over30 minutes.
And so that day was a day thatI felt less shame, because even

(26:30):
these strong women that I reallyadmired were going through the
same thing that I was, and so Ifelt like, oh my God, if none of
us are immune to these issues,then maybe this is a bigger
problem.
And so that's when theresearcher really came on to
understand that this phenomenonthat we're talking about had a
name, a couple names actuallythe second shift, unpaid labor,

(26:55):
uh, emotional labor, cognitivelabor, um, and invisible work.
That was my favorite one, justinBrandon, because it came from
1986, an article I read, and thewoman, the sociologist, was
arguing that, uh, unfortunately,she didn't believe that women's
work in the home would ever bevisible, because visibility in

(27:16):
our society equals value, and ifwe gave value to the unpaid
labor, we'd have to pay for itor we'd have to acknowledge it.
And the invisibility is what isallowing America to have women
as our social safety net, andthat is something that we need
for a capitalist patriarchy tothrive.
And so she argued that we wouldnever make the invisible

(27:42):
visible.
So then I got mad at her andsaid well, I'm going to make the
invisible visible.
And I started with the should Ido?
Spreadsheet.
And that's how Fair Play began,with a giant Excel spreadsheet
of 98 tabs and 2000 items ofinvisible work I compiled over a
year from women married to mennow in 17 countries.
That basically asked thequestion what is invisible to

(28:03):
your partner that you may bedoing that they don't see An
Excel spreadsheet with 98 tabs.

Speaker 2 (28:10):
I know the entire book.

Speaker 3 (28:11):
I mean I binged it, I think it took me, I think I
finished it in two or three days, and I mean as soon as she was
done, she was like we need totalk.
Yeah, we're going to have aconversation but you know, again
because of the systems and we.
This is something we're goingto be revisiting over and over
again, right as our children getolder, as our goals change.

Speaker 1 (28:33):
Yeah, it's a practice , absolutely.

Speaker 3 (28:35):
But I will tell you, I was changing the laundry
earlier and I was so impressedbecause Brandon did the towels.
You're probably like, where isshe going?
Yeah, I'm wondering.
Now I love this.
And all of the hand towels werein there.
The kitchen towels were inthere, the kids' bathroom hand
towels Amazing.
When we got married eight yearsago, I don't know that brandon

(28:56):
would have washed a hand towel.
They just magically are alwaysclean and always ready to go and
perfectly folded that's asingle man.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
I don't think I had hand towels right, right so.

Speaker 3 (29:08):
But I mean, that was.
I literally had a cognitivemoment of, like every single
hand, like I know which handtowel goes goes in which
bathroom, and I had a moment of,oh my gosh, it clicked, he's
got it.
When we do towels, we do allthe towels.
When we do the bath, mats.

Speaker 1 (29:25):
we do all the bath mats.
So, ladies, Exactly that is it,yes.
Well, the point is as, Brandon,as you see from systems is,
first of all, you're going tothere.
There's lots.
Fair play is a love letter tomen.
It became a love letter to menbecause we'll talk about how
painful it is for men to behelpers and not partners.
It's just not sustainable tohave no context for what's

(29:48):
happening in your own home, andso I think there's a lot of pain
for men as well.
But I will say that men, whenthey understand, after again
interviewing them for 10 years,that one, Robert Waldinger, has
a TED Talk.
That's the most watched TEDTalk, I think, of all time.

(30:10):
It's about 75 years of alongitudinal study of men's
health and well-being.
Men are alive regardless ofsmoking, regardless of race.
Longitudinal study of men'shealth and wellbeing.
Men are alive regardless ofsmoking, regardless of race,
regardless of socioeconomicstatus.
They control for all of that.
Men are alive at 85 if theyhave quality relationships at 55
.
Quality relationships at 55with Jess are going to be

(30:34):
cemented in the spaces inbetween, in the small things,
and folding a hand towel is oneof those that's a love language.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
I know her love language.

Speaker 3 (30:46):
Yes, it is a love language.
Yes, it matters.
But I will tell you, lovelanguage has always bothered me.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
Love language has bothered me because I ask people
about them and women who didnot have acts of service never
said anything else.
It wasn't like a woman was likeI want Brandon to leave all the
crap on the floor anddisrespect my time, but he can
buy me like a charm bracelet.
It was always.
It was like a Maslow'shierarchy acts of service.

(31:16):
The only women who chosesomething else were ones who
already assumed that acts ofservice were sort of part of the
relationship.
Um, anyway, that's a wholeother thing, but I will say that
that is the key to the.
The should I do was theopposite of a love letter to men
, because at that time the onlyadvice I could find on dividing
up domestic labor was make alist.

Speaker 3 (31:40):
And if I have, to make the list and tell you what
to do.
It defeats the purpose.

Speaker 2 (31:44):
So I have a question.

Speaker 1 (31:46):
But at the time that's what it was and I did
send that list to Seth and itdidn't work.

Speaker 2 (31:49):
Well, Okay, Brandon, yes, go so in the research that
you've done over, you know,numerous years, have you found
any information that correlateswith, like how a man was, how a
man grew up, and like how hishome growing up was, as far as
you know, labor, whether, that'syou know, two parents, a single
parent raised by a mother, andhow that maybe dictates how they

(32:12):
are as an adult when it comesto that stuff?

Speaker 1 (32:15):
It's so interesting because I thought I would see a
difference, like I thought well,maybe men of single mothers
were more used to helping outaround the house.
I, we, we haven't.
I mean again, this is just aqualitative.
We do have a quantitative studythat showed fair play works, so
that's very exciting.
We just did a big study with abig health company and USC, but

(32:35):
I don't have a quantitativestudy about that, brandon.
But what I thought was veryinteresting, the only thing I
could see in the qualitativeinterviews over 10 years was
that second born men were alittle bit more likely to do to
be to already do domestic laborbefore Fair Play.

Speaker 3 (32:53):
Oh so first borns.

Speaker 1 (32:55):
Yeah, it was interesting.
Firstborn men felt a little bitmore tricky than the second
born, but that was the onlyrelationship I mean, that was
the only personal system I couldfind, and I think you know why
that is Because I thinkmasculinity is so global in
terms of what is expected of men, this idea that you have to be

(33:17):
the breadwinner, that you haveto be strong, you have to be a
protector for your family, thatyou're not allowed to show
weakness.
So I think, in general, some ofthose themes overrode what we
saw in terms of individualfamily circumstance.

Speaker 3 (33:32):
Interesting.
It's a good question, though,because and I'm, as you said,
the second born I'm likethinking about our brothers and
I'm like I don't know about that.

Speaker 1 (33:40):
But right, exactly, yeah, it was only, like I said,
it was a very small you knowthing that we observed, but
nothing.
What we saw, I think in termsof generally what we saw and
this is was the most important.
So I'll just skip to what wesaw, cause I think it's
important because it does helpanswer that question.

(34:02):
Um, we saw that, um, most men,um, were coming from some type
of assumption, as one woman saidto me.
She said fair play taught herthis is one of my favorite lines
that, uh, that she didn't havea magical vagina that whispered
in her ear what her husband'smother wants for Christmas oh my

(34:23):
god.
So I think that magical vaginasthinking was sort of there.
Again, like I said across theboard, what was most interesting
was the people who are mostreceptive.
So the should I do?
List, as you could imagine,when I sent it to Seth after a
year of compiling can't wait todiscuss didn't go over well with

(34:44):
him.
He basically just sent me backthe pixelated like see no evil
monkey emoji.
Like what is this?
You know crap you're sending me.
You know crap you're sending me.
But what did work for him waswhen I started to apply my day
job to what I was doing.

(35:04):
So when I realized a listdidn't work, what I've always
told my clients and because myday job is, I work for families
that look like the HBO showSuccession, which you should
feel bad for me but I createthese very complex governance
systems so that families canhave grace and humor and
generosity around difficult,complex organizational family
decisions.
And so when I realize, ooh,what if the thing that's missing

(35:30):
in this conversation is not thepsychologists who say use I
statements, men are from Mars,whatever women are from Venus.
It's not the economists who aretalking over here about the
cost of child care.
Those are both important, butwhat if we're missing a middle
ground here, which maybe, as alawyer, no one's ever really

(35:53):
looked at this as a lawyer, butlawyers are the ones who design
behaviors for societies.
Jess and Brandon, right?
I mean, if you don't wantsomeone to vote in Georgia,
you're not going to be like,excuse me, use an I statement to
tell them not to vote.
I don't think you should vote.
No, you're going to pass a lawtelling them not to.
You know, make it harder forthem to vote.
If you want people to stop at astop sign, you're going to pass
a law.
So I kept thinking well, whatabout my governance background?

(36:16):
Like the laws I give forfamilies, the roadmaps of laws
they're called bylaws.
What if I created that for myown family?
And so that became.
When I realized the list didn'twork for Seth and the should I
do?
Spreadsheet was a wonderfulexercise for me and it did make
the invisible visible.
I kept thinking maybe what Ineed to do with this list is

(36:38):
turn it into a system.
And so that was the questionthat changed my life, which is a
question I postulated in 2012,which was what if we start to
treat our homes as our mostimportant organizations?
And what I would say is that,getting back to this, is a long
answer to Brandon's question.
When I started to look at thisas an organizational management

(37:00):
question, that it's you and yourpartner against the
organization that you're, youknow partners in an organization
, the people who believe inorganizational systems, the men
who believed in that, whetherthey were first born or second
born or single mother, they werethe ones who were most
interested first, and sotypically it was coaches and
military men, which I thoughtwas really interesting, people

(37:23):
who understood the systems ofthe military, and also coaches
who understood that know yourrole.
Like you're not going to putyour point guard in for your
center unless I guess it'sLeBron James and you can play
any position, but typically,typically, there are systems you
know they're used to working insystems.
So those were the men thatactually, regardless of their

(37:44):
home structure, it was the workthat they did that made them
most receptive to be a betatester for, for people who
believed in systems, they werewilling to give me a shot.

Speaker 3 (37:55):
That's interesting.
I love a system.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
I love a system.

Speaker 3 (37:58):
I love a standard operating procedure.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
I love, you know I that is, I love that.
So I'm a creature of habit, soa system there, I guess.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:08):
Yes, exactly so you know.
But the good thing about habits, as we know from Atomic Habits,
was um I've spoken atconferences with James Clear is
that systems, when you practicethem enough, become habits.
So that's very exciting.

Speaker 3 (38:22):
Yes, we listened to that book together, actually on
a road trip.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
Oh yeah, which was very good.

Speaker 3 (38:27):
So we're talking about systems.
So the boundaries, the systems,the communications, all of that
led to CPE.
Am I skipping anything beforewe get to CPE?

Speaker 1 (38:36):
No, because I know that's the most important part
of all of this.
Okay, let's talk about it.
Well, so I'll just give you abit of context.
And again, you could always,you know, edit this out, but I
like to give context.
I think it actually helps menunderstand how much rigor went
into this.
It's not just some randomperson being like you should
help out your wife more, right,right?

(38:57):
So what I was looking for wasdata.
And so once I realized, okay,the home is an organization,
then I realized, well, okay, soif I went, if I'm your producer,
jess and Brandon, I come to youand I say, hey guys, what
should I be doing today?
I'm just going to wait here totell me what to do, right, we
know that that doesn't fly inthe workplace.
It doesn't even fly in my auntMarion's Mahjong group, where

(39:20):
you would say you know in thatgroup.
They are clear systems.
You don't bring snack twice onyour snack day, you're out.
So the the only place I couldfind where we were still using
three toxic words, which werewe're going to figure it out
we're the home.
And so I had to start to thinkabout what would it look like to

(39:45):
design a system, if it's truethat the home is an organization
and to do to design any system,you have to have the right data
.
So I started to go to couplesand I would say, with my fair,
my spreadsheet, which is now thefair play cards who handles
summer breaks for your kids?
Oh, we both do.
Who does grocery shopping?
We both do.
Who does couple social plans?
We both do.

(40:06):
And so it was a very funny.
I love that you're raising yourhand.
We'll talk about that later.
But yeah, so I would hear thischiming in of we both do these
things.
So I couldn't get accurate data.
Finally, after interviewing andinterviewing, now I've been
able to ask this question in 17countries, and so we know that

(40:29):
in the Nordic countries, inSouth America, in mainland China
, it's always the same.
South America and mainlandChina, it's always the same.
Women married to men, uh, havea certain pattern, and the only
way I was able to break thatboth trap, to get the actual
data of what's happening inheterosexual relationships, was
to ask the transformationalquestion of my lifetime, which

(40:51):
was how does mustard get in yourrefrigerator?
And it's so good, which isBrandon.
Yes, he's the mustard eater, butit gets in the fridge because
of me was how does mustard getin your refrigerator and it's so
good, which is so funny?

Speaker 3 (40:57):
And Brandon, yes, once I asked that Because he's
the mustard eater, but it getsin the fridge because of me.
Yes, are you shaking your head?
Are we about to have a fight infront of Eve?
That is inaccurate.

Speaker 1 (41:08):
I bought a lot of mustard.
No, no, no, okay, okay.
But let's explain why thatquestion was so confounding
similar.

Speaker 3 (41:20):
Let's explain why that question was so confounding
.
Similar to you.
Just had a reaction to itbecause a lot of people have
this reaction to that, becauseBrandon's blatantly lying on our
podcast, right?

Speaker 1 (41:22):
now.
Well, it's not that he's lying.
What happens is is that whenyou don't actually break it down
into the project managementsteps of what that one act is,
to the project management stepsof what that one act is Remember
, it's one act in one groceriescard of a hundred cards, which
is the fair play system now.

(41:43):
So what I was able to do bybreaking it down, I could go to
each country and pick thecondiment of choice it wasn't
always mustard and what washappening was women and men
didn't actually, they didn'tcombat it.
They would say, yes, this iswhat my wife does.
She's the one in the projectmanagement hierarchy, she's the
one conceiving of the fact thatyellow mustard is in our

(42:05):
refrigerator, because our secondson, johnny, only will eat
protein with yellow mustard,otherwise he won't eat protein.
So then, all of a sudden, I gotconsensus on data.
Women are shouldering theconception.
And then I'm looking forplanning, which is another
organizational management step.
So I'd say who asks forstakeholder buy-in for what you

(42:26):
need for the grocery list?
I didn't actually use the wordstakeholder buy-in, but you get
what I'm getting at.
So then, when I asked aboutstakeholder buy-in, who's
serving the family forstakeholder buy-in and who's
monitoring the mustard for whenit runs low?
Not, hey, babe, we're out ofmustard, but actually is
monitoring it similar to thebeautiful hand towel that it

(42:46):
just keeps rotating and it'sthere toilet paper.
Shout out to Brandon for that.
So when you're monitoring thatfor when it's running low, that
is a planning phase.
And then I got to why we havethe both trap because men do
participate in the mustard,because they go to the store to
go get it, and then you knowwhat happens is and this is why

(43:11):
Fairplay became a love letter tomen.
A lot of times, without context, a man will go to the store
because they're just doing the E, the execution.
They're bringing home spicyDijon every fucking time.
Brandon and I asked you foryellow.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
We're not a yellow muscle.

Speaker 3 (43:29):
But Johnny only eats that with his protein Right,
exactly, and so what ishappening?

Speaker 1 (43:37):
And so the yellow's not there.
And then what women wouldwhisper to me is Eve, I see, you
know you have on this Excelspreadsheet estate planning.
You want me to trust my husbandwith my living will.
You know, he can't even bringhome the right type of mustard,
and so that's when I realizedthat the home was eroding.

(43:57):
The actually the only twothings you need for a successful
organization these interactionsover and over.
As a mediator and a lawyer, wealways say the presenting
problem is not the real problem.
So obviously it's not actuallyabout mustard.
What it's about is that whenyou have these interaction of
one person holding all thecontext and the cognitive labor

(44:18):
of conception and planning andthe other person coming in and
execution, accountability andtrust start eroding.
And if you don't haveaccountability and trust, you
don't have an organization.
That's where this idea of CPEstaying together was born,
because in a workplace when youjust have execution, again the

(44:42):
love letter to men is that youlose something called
psychological safety.
So the person who's justexecuting has no context, so
they don't feel safe.
So often that person retreatsor they will feel like I can't
do anything right in this job.
And then often I would hearthat from men, not that I don't
want to help, but like what'sthe point if I can't do anything
right?

(45:02):
And so then I start to feelreally bad for men and I start
to call this not nagging, but arat infestation, and a rat
infestation of a home.
Nobody wants their homeinvested with rats was a random
assignment of a task, and Irealized that men in these 17
countries, even the Nordiccountries, were mostly doing
execution on their wives'cognitive labor, which obviously

(45:26):
is terrible for women becauseit burns us out, and that's what
my new study shows, myquantitative study.
But it's terrible for men too,because they lose psychological
safety in their most importantorganization of the home.
And so that's why it's terriblefor men too, because they lose
psychological safety in theirmost important organization of
the home.
And so that's why it's reallyus against the cards, it's us
against a figure it outmentality, because that's what a
figure it out mentality doesfor you.

(45:47):
An ownership mentality is whatfair play is.
An ownership mentality is youdo all the towels.
Well, you told me to put thisin the dryer.
Okay, that's one towel from theswim.
Like I said, towels like do younot know the towels upstairs.
And so then we start givingfeedback.
In the moment we use nail, thechalkboard type tone, a person
retreats, and so we end up notbeing able to communicate.

(46:09):
Because then you say, well, Ican't communicate about domestic
life, it's too triggering.
And so then all of a sudden weare in this accountability and
trust spiral where I don't trusthim to do X, so I might as well
do it myself, and then theresentment increases.
So really there's a very simplesolution, and that solution is
to move to an ownership mindset.
Sadly, because of expectationsand, you know, religion and many

(46:33):
things that have kept women inthe home for so long, it was
easier said than done, jess andBrandon, because I thought I was
delivering this beautifullogical system to the world.

Speaker 3 (46:44):
You did, but it's hard, thank you.
It's hard.

Speaker 1 (46:46):
But it was so painful for people.
It was so painful for people toget through the first part of
Fair Play that it took us fiveyears to actually get data from
people that they wereconsistently able to actually
talk about the, even talk aboutthe cards, to even bring them up
.
It was so painful and I don'tthink I was anticipating how

(47:08):
much pain would be there andthat was my bad.

Speaker 3 (47:12):
Um, I was just I'm sort of I am a lawyer, I'm not a
psychologist, so I'm just likeI was just I'm sort of I am a

(47:39):
lawyer, I'm not a psychologist,so I'm just like, just do what's
efficient.
Move into the conversation.
I knew instantly when I tookthis to Brandon and I said we've
got to have a system, I feellike I'm drowning.
I knew he would hear me and Iknew he would care, and I do
think a lot of that comes fromthe fact that he saw his mom
doing everything and so hedoesn't want that to be what
happens in our home.
But I also know that there aremany women who do not have that
kind of support, and so for thatI was always thankful.

(48:01):
I do think, as a type A OCDperson who really likes control
and somebody who does trust herpartner, it is really difficult
to let go of some of thosethings.
And there's also that elementof all right, if I let him do
this, let him do this, then hegets to do it his way.

(48:23):
Now, if we want to put somesort of boundary or scope around
how it's done.
You know, hey, I wash the towelson hot.
We rinse them twice, like wetalked about it right, like now
there's a system.
And again, rinse them twice.
Like we talk about it right,like now there's a system and
again, ding, ding, it clickedright.

(48:44):
I saw that today, but it'sstill hard to let go of that
control or the mindset of, if Ihave to tell you how to do it,
I'll just do it myself, becauseI did that for years, and that's
where the exhaustion and theburnout comes from.
Is well, if I have to make youa list, if I have to.
And so we had a moment thisyear at our daughter's, our
son's birthday party, and I knowyou're going to like remember
this, but you know I'm in themidst of all things, mom, at a

(49:04):
birthday party, which is alwayschaos, even when it's smiling
yeah, thanks for coming.
You know, Brandon goes to pickup the pizzas and he comes back
and he has four pizza boxes.
There's 32 children, not evencounting the parents were at a
park, so you can inviteeverybody.
And I was like, where are therest of the pizzas?

(49:25):
And he was like, well, this iswhat they handed me, total
breakdown.

Speaker 1 (49:30):
And so he again rats are right, that's a random
assignment of a task.
And I will say Brandon, I seeyou in that, I don't again,
maybe.
Yeah, and then because this ishow I see brandon's point of
view if you, what?
If you ordered, and all of asudden he brings back a hundred
pizzas and then you say to himoh my god, everybody was

(49:51):
bringing their own food.
This was just a supplement forthe few kids that I told you.
They didn't bring their ownfood.

Speaker 3 (49:56):
Here and now we've all this food waste and yeah, we
ordered it beforehand, like Ididn't exactly, but either way
it would have fallen apartbecause I ordered the pizza
right and then, like you said, Ithrew him a rat.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
Go pick it up so, yes , exactly, and and, by the way,
there are some times where therehas to be a rat, but, but, but.
What I would say is that if youcan anticipate the rat, it goes
a lot better.

Speaker 3 (50:18):
So what you're doing, that I will I say exactly?

Speaker 1 (50:21):
I say to Seth I know this is I'm, you know I hold the
birthday card.
I've ordered the food.
I was going to try to go pickit up.
Time is running low, uh, sorry,you know feedback in the moment
, let's just go do this.
Here's the receipt, here's whatwe're supposed to order.

(50:42):
If it doesn't look like enough,wait and get more, you know we
can get.
This is supposed to feed theentire party.
Even like a couple of ofcontext, you know, clues is
really helpful.
But I think that's such abeautiful uh segue to you know I
was thinking about when youwere talking about the giving up
control, um, why it's not justgiving up control for women.
It's allowing men to forgequality relationships with their

(51:07):
children.
And so I think part of this isthat we've become so complicit
in our own oppression by sayingthings to us like I'm a better
multitasker, I'm wireddifferently for care, like
Brandon could never see this theway I did.
There's no, there's nojustification.
We don't task switchdifferently because we have a
woman's brain versus a man'sbrain.
We're, we're, we're the same.

(51:30):
But I think, as oneneuroscientist said to me, women
have been conditioned to takepride in wiping asses and doing
dishes so that I and then that'sgreat for me because then I
have more time to get tenure andfor my golf game, and so it is
part of the system.
It's not anybody's fault thatwe believe these toxic messages

(51:50):
about how we have to use ourtime, but I want to just you
reminded me that I don't get totell a story often, but there
was a couple during the pandemicRichard and Amy and they and
what was interesting was thatthey noticed when they did the
audit of the cards so the fairplay cards as we've been talking
about there are 100 cards.
They evolved from the should Ido?
spreadsheet they're beautifuland they're in different suits,

(52:14):
because there are suits that aresomewhat outsourceable, that
people say that they outsource.
Those are called the home suitand the out suit.
And then there's 50 cards whereparents actually said these are
not outsourceable.
I love Alexia, our babysitter,but she's not going to decide
whether my child's adenoids arebeing taken out, right, you know
, I, I love, I love Alexia, butyou know she's really not going

(52:35):
to go to the barbershop and givemy kid, you know, the low top
fade.
He wants what my son wanted, orwhatever, you know.
So I'm there, so I was able tosee which ones were
outsourceable, which weren't.
But there was one card thiscouple noticed in their division
of the deck that Richard wasactually really good at the home
suit, so he was doing homemaintenance, home repair, really

(52:56):
good at dishes, but he had verylittle of the magic cards and
those are cards like middle ofthe night, comfort, um, all the
sort of intangibles, uh, in-laws, in-law management, um, cousins
, uh, extended family.
So one card he decides to takewas the magical beings card and

(53:18):
he says, okay, I'm going to bethe tooth fairy, um, and so, as
you can imagine, the story thatthey tell me is that when they
first start to CPE ownership ofthe tooth fairy and they come up
with a minimum standard I thinkof like $5, cause they thought
a dollar was too little forinflation.

Speaker 3 (53:35):
But these $20 things are because, you're scrambling,
I know driving $1.

Speaker 1 (53:42):
Yeah, so they did five, but the $20, they're
convinced, is because peoplescramble and forget, and so
they're just looking in theirwallet and they don't have
change.
So they, they do the, you know,they talk about it, but the
first time that he is the toothfairy, the tooth fairy doesn't
come, and so this gets back towhat you were saying, jess.
As a type A person, like what?

(54:03):
So this is what Amy says.
As a type A person that shewould have done before Fair Play
and Brandon, you can tell me ifthis relates to you she would
have used feedback at the momentand said things all or nothing.
Like you've just ruined ourchild's.
You've ruined our child'schildhood.
Like I can never trust youagain with anything for the rest
of our kids' lives.
I will never trust you withanything.

(54:24):
That's important, right?
So she was reflecting that.
That's sort of the languagethat she thinks she would have
used when she saw her child'sdistress over.
Like what the heck?
What happened to the toothfairy?
And what was the mostinteresting, though, was that,
richard, he took accountabilitybefore she could say any of

(54:46):
those things.
So, because he had the CPE ofthe card and they talked about
it in advance.
He said what he didn't say wasyou forgot to remind me to put
the dollar into the pillow,which is probably what he would
have said.
And so, because he saidsomething different first, which
was, oh my God, my bad, like Itotally messed this up, amy said

(55:08):
that restored trust immediatelybecause he took, you know,
accountability for his mistakeand she was able to give him
some space to say like yes, thisis not ideal, but I'll let you
carry through your mistake.
Him some space to say like, yes, this is not ideal, but I'll
let you carry through yourmistake.
And then what Richard says heemails in front of his child,
tooth fairy at gmailcom and he'slike look, I'm just going to,

(55:30):
you know, put this off reallyquick.
Before you know, you have to goto COVID school or whatever.
Let's just email her and belike you know or hit whatever
what happened here during theday.
As he's working, he gets aresponse from tooth fairy
gmailcom.
There's somebody who man itman's that, you know, woman's
that email account and it sayslike, due to covid or supply
chain issues, I'm running behindon teeth.

(55:51):
Um, I will be there tonight.
He prints out that email, showsit to his child.
And then he was the tooth fairythe next night, and that's the
end of that story.
Yeah, and I just think that inthat, yeah, in that small, but
in the space that this partnergave this man to do the magic

(56:14):
and to carry through a mistakeand to take accountability, I
believe that that will lead tomore and more shift and change
in that change management, thatorganizational systems of that
home, based on just this very,very small story.

Speaker 3 (56:30):
Yeah, I will say the fair play cards, and we haven't
done them in a while.
We've found our rhythm.
We probably should do it onceor twice a year, but I have not
filled out a single school form.
I have not made a singledoctor's appointment.
Brandon, my rule is is nowlisten.
I got them out of my body, youcan go get them shots.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
I don't need to be there for that.

Speaker 3 (56:52):
So, but those are, you know, those are the little
things and that's not.
We're certainly not sayingwe're perfect and we figured it
out, and there aren't timeswhere I'm like you said you were
going to turn over the laundry,or I mean, it's still life,
right, it's still messy, it'sstill beautiful, it's still all
the things, but it's definitelybetter.

Speaker 2 (57:09):
I think what it helps so.
I think what I really took fromit was the um, how much she
thinks about things and how muchthat weighs on her.
Cause as man like I.
I I'm gonna speak for most men,because not all men, but we can
turn our brains off.
I can literally sit there andnot think about anything she's
like how is that possible?

(57:31):
never in my entire life has thathappened to my yeah and as a
man, you need to understand thata majority of women cannot do
that and that is taxing on themjust having to think about
everything.
Even Even if it's, you know youare going to be the one that
executes it.
She's still thinking about itand I mean we still even
sometimes are working throughhow to take some of that

(57:52):
thinking about it away from herCause.
Even sometimes when, like, I'mdoing the task, she's still very
much thinking about it.
We're still working throughthat.
But you really need tounderstand that how, like
potentially more than likely,that's how your partner you know
.
If you're in a heteronormativerelationship, that's how she
thinks.

Speaker 3 (58:07):
But there's also, absolutely there's times where
society right, we put him as thefirst contact on all school
forms, doctor's forms, et cetera, and we say please call Brandon
first.
And who do they call?
It's always me, they always I'mthe default right, you said
that earlier 99% of the timehe's the one showing his face

(58:27):
every single morning, and theystill will call me when we've
said call him Now.
That's basic, that's morebecause of a scheduling thing Uh
, he works for himself, I don't,and so he has more availability
to just pick up the phone ifthey needed something.
But society is still making methe default, even when on every
single form we explicitly saycall Brandon first, and so you

(58:49):
still have to kind of battlewith those things, like the
pediatrician called a coupleweeks ago and said oh, it's time
for Aston's, you know well,check.
And I said please call myhusband, like the form says
Thank you so much, and she waslike, oh, okay, you know but we
actually meant it.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
Please call Brandon, not me, absolutely, and I think
that gets to what you're saying,gets to why fair play is so
painful.
Because if it was just anorganization, another
organizational system for a bookor atomic habits for life,
right, I could sit sort of intime management and and not have
to address the pain of thistopic.

(59:26):
But I think what you know, whatBrandon is building on, is a
core premise.
That was really how Sethchanged the.
The way he changed wasn't justacknowledging that I'm thinking
about all this cognitive laborand taking it over, which he did
, and that was very importantbut it was more of a fundamental

(59:48):
premise of Fair Play which Italk about this realization that
as a society, like you said,because I called schools for my
research and said why do youcall women first?
And it wasn't because they werethe first in the contact, it
was because men don't pick up,we don't want to bother him.
So what that was indicating isthere's this fundamental

(01:00:11):
assumption in society that men'stime is more valuable than
women's time and we often treatmen's time as if it's diamonds,
as if it's finite, and we treatwomen's time as if it's infinite
of it's finite and we treatwomen's time as if it's infinite
like sand, and we know thisbecause of women enter male
professions, their salariesautomatically go down.
We know this because healthsystems still today say weird
things about breastfeeding, likeit's free.

(01:00:32):
Breastfeeding is free eventhough it's an 1800 hour a year
job for women.
But then what happens is womenstart internalizing these
messages that society has giventhem.
So once you know they getenough schools or you know
metaphorical schools callingthem then we start to get this
guilt and shame of well, what amI doing wrong here?

(01:00:54):
You know, am I out of the norm?
Maybe I shouldn't be putting somuch on my partner.
And the way we start to live ina system like this is we start
to say things like well, I'mwired differently for care and
the time it takes me to tellBrandon what to do, I should do
it myself.
Yes, we're both colorectalsurgeons this one woman said and
my husband's better at focusingon one task at a time and I can

(01:01:17):
find the time.
And what I kept hearing aboutfinding time is, I kept saying
to women we're not living in aspace time continuum where you
can find time.
There's just such a differentexpectation over how we're
supposed to use our time.
And so even when Brandon isstepping up to say I don't want
you to use your time like that,Jess.
I'm going to absorb the unpaidlabor and use my time, my

(01:01:39):
diamond time, my valuable time,to do this, to free up time for
you.
Society doesn't really likethat.
They're uncomfortable with that, and so they're going to keep
pushing back on you to maybebreak you.
Jess and Brandon and I see itwith in-laws, I see it with
cousins, I see it with schoolsPeople don't like something that

(01:02:01):
threatens what they're doing,and so you are cultural warriors
, Jess and Brandon, by having apodcast talking about the
realities of marriage, doingthings differently, practicing
fair play.
It's never going to be perfect,Saying you know, we're going to
fight today about mustard, buttowels are perfect, right, I
mean, life is just hard and it'shard on parents, and that's why

(01:02:24):
we're focusing on, you know,the bigger are perfect, right, I
mean, life is just is hard andit's hard on parents, and that's
why we're focusing on, you know, the bigger.
Policy change too, but you cantake agency to become a
partnership, and I will say thatthat's been.
The biggest change in my lifewas when Seth finally said to me
not I'll take over schoolcommunication, which he did.
It was Eve school communicationwhich he did.

(01:02:45):
It was Eve.
I hear you when you say that Ihave three hours after our kids
go to bed to watch SportsCenterworkout and finish my PowerPoint
deck, whereas you're doingthings in service of the home
until your head hits the pillowthree hours after I go to bed.
I see your unpaid work and Isee that it's unfair, that your
time has been hijacked andchosen for you by unpaid labor
and society, and I'm willing tobe a partner here and take some

(01:03:08):
of that off your plate.
So I I'm bringing that upbecause, Brandon, what you said
was similar, which is you're notjust saying to Jess, oh fine,
I'll handle laundry.
What you're saying is I seeyour mental load, I see that
your mind and your day has beensort of hijacked by all of what
society has put on you, and I'mwilling to come in as a partner

(01:03:29):
and take some of that off yourplate, and that's probably the
most generous thing that any mancan do in a heterosis gender
relationship absolutely, and heknows if the dishes the
dishwasher's empty the laundry'sdone.

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
Guess what that leaves time for you know, I mean
let's just be serious and it'strue, by the way.

Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
Sex lives are better sex lives.
Relationship satisfaction wejust got our first cohort of our
study back.
Relationship satisfactionincreases under fair play.
It increases when women haveless cognitive labor.
Sex increases when there's moredomestic fairness.
It just of course it does.

Speaker 3 (01:04:09):
Of course.
I mean it's so simple.

Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
Yeah, it's sexy, you know it's.
There's nothing more sexy forwomen, right, than a man who
knows how to fold a towel.
It's just who?
Who ever told society that youhad to be the WWE?
You know, vince McMahon, hulkHogan version of a man Like what

(01:04:32):
?
The reason why society isbreaking down is because no
one's dating those men.
We're dating the men who fold,fold and wash the towels and the
scent free detergent.
That was our minimum standardof care, because our son has
asthma.
That is what is sexy to womenexactly.

Speaker 3 (01:04:49):
Listen up, guys.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
That's what we want more of, absolutely honestly, I
think a big part of is that.
I'm the household that I grewup in with a single mom, seeing
her do everything, and, like I,grew up with the concept like
there's no such thing as a maleor female chore, like there's
household chores and they needto be done.
Your things, you know, you knowwith your family that need to
be done and there's not specificgender roles that need to be um

(01:05:11):
associated, assigned.

Speaker 3 (01:05:13):
Yeah, right now our children get to see that too.
You know we're not saying Imean they're still small.
But we're not saying roman,take out the trash and aston, do
the inside chore.

Speaker 2 (01:05:20):
You know, like we're not saying Roman take out the
trash and, aston, do the insideshort.
You know, like we're not doingthat, I carry everything you do
carry everything Physically.
Because you're so strong.

Speaker 3 (01:05:28):
That's okay, because you're so strong.
Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 1 (01:05:31):
I do, but you know what?
You're also metaphoricallydoing that because, honestly,
dealing with a school form isprobably to me as heavy as a box
.
Filling out of school form isone of my least favorite things
to do.
I'd rather have like seven rootcanals.
So thank you, brandon, fortaking, and so actually that's a
good segue, I think to thislike this, this, this ending

(01:05:54):
game that I wanted to play.
So what I what?
This therapist that we havethis whole.
You know a fair placefacilitators.
Now these therapists who havethis whole.
You know a fair placefacilitators.
Now, these therapists who havestarted to incorporate the
gender lens and and some of thisunfairness, um to fairness
conversations into their therapy, which I think has been really
fun.
So one of them reported backthat she's using the cards a

(01:06:15):
little bit in a different wayfor people who aren't ready, um,
to go to them and to startassigning ownership like Jess
and Brandon were.
She's doing something a littledifferent, which gets at
Brandon's original question,which is like does your
upbringing inform you?
So where it does inform you isnot who does what more willingly
, but in terms of what I callthe minimum standard of care,

(01:06:37):
like what you saw sort ofgrowing up.
So I thought it would be fun toum, I'll just sort of okay, so
let's, there's a milliondifferent cards, there are so
many cards.
I'll just so I'll pick one.
I'll pick the one we decidedearlier because of the we
started with that mustard thingand I want to just the way she
uses them and what yourlisteners can do as a homework

(01:06:58):
assignment is just pick one ofthe a hundred cards, any of them
, and just sit down with yourpartner on a date night or even
for coffee, and just ask themabout their childhood memories
of that card.
So, brandon, I'll start with you.
Let's just do groceries.
Since we started that, we'll dofull circle.
Tell me what you remember aboutgrocery shopping as a child.

(01:07:19):
Do you remember anything aboutwhat stores you went to, if you
went with your mother, if yoursiblings went, like what your
refrigerator looked like?
Tell me all that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:29):
Well, we I was when we were younger we would go
because my mom was single, soshe had take us with her.
He couldn't leave us at home byourselves because we weren't
old enough yet.
Obviously, once I got a bitolder and I can watch my brother
, it's easier to shop withoutkids, but ours was always full
because you have two boys whowere playing like three sports.
I used to always joke that likewe had an extra pantry outside

(01:07:50):
in the garage where it was justfilled with cereal boxes, like
people come to our house andwe'd have like 40 cereal boxes
at one time because we'd gothrough one every day.

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
I love cereal, so you played sports.
And then what was your favoritecereal?

Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
I was a big Reese's Pieces peanut butter cups guy.

Speaker 3 (01:08:08):
Super healthy.
Oh, I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
Oh yeah, so healthy.
Well, we'll get into that,because that's how I grew up too
.
I grew up on Lucky Charms.
Still to this day.
It's what I'm probably going toeat for lunch after this.
Or Cocoa Pebbles probably gonnaeat for lunch after this, um,
or cocoa pebbles, um, and then.
Do you remember whatsupermarket?
That you would go to or do youhave a sense of?

Speaker 2 (01:08:28):
like Kroger's so is that a west?

Speaker 3 (01:08:28):
coast that's west coast right east coast east,
gotta be east oh east coast?

Speaker 1 (01:08:33):
I don't remember.
Yeah, kroger's.
Where was Kroger's?
Where'd you grow up?
North Carolina oh, northCarolina.
Yeah, maybe it's south and westbecause we had Pathmark and
ShopRite.
What about you, jess?
What do you remember aboutgrocery shopping growing up?

Speaker 3 (01:08:49):
That the fridge was always full, the pantry was
always full, lots of fruits andvegetables.
My mom's a vegetarian, so, yeah, always healthy stuff.
We were the house that likenever had Kool-Aid, never had
soda, never had, you know, juicewas.
Every now and then we'd havelike an organic apple juice and

(01:09:09):
we would have to mix it withwater.
I grew up in Europe originally,but so definitely not the fun
food, absolutely no.
Reese's peanut butter cupcereal None of that.
None of that, none of that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
Interesting.
And do you remember who did theshopping for your home?
A hundred percent, my mom.

Speaker 3 (01:09:29):
Definitely my mom, so it's interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:09:31):
So you both had mothers who did the shopping.
So I'm just saying, if itwasn't you, what the therapist
was trying to say to people isthat there's some implicit
assumptions here that may sneakin if you don't address them.
You know, through a system Likebecause both of the times women
were the ones in the domain ofgrocery shopping.
And then the other thing that Ithink is very fascinating is

(01:09:52):
back to that minimum standard ofcare.
So it could be predictably onething.
It could be that if I didn'tknow you, brandon, you grew up
with just you know, tons ofcereals, processed foods, so now
you want to do everythingdifferent.
You want everything organic,you want your children's, you
know food cooked.
And then, jess, you could rebeland be like I hated being that

(01:10:15):
house that you know I.
I hoarded, you know chocolateat my friend's house.
I took it home in like a bagand hid it under my bed.
Or you could be a householdmore like Seth and me, where he
grew up with fruits andvegetables and a fridge and I
was a bodega eater, and so hewould say to me what the fuck?
You know, every meal you'regiving our kids, like the only

(01:10:38):
green, is like a shamrock fromthe Lucky Charms box, like this
is dinner.
And so, when it comes to minimumstandard of care, I think it's
actually very important tounderstand our upbringing,
because I would predict, maybeagain, that Jess is the one you
know putting apple slices youknow into like a nice bento box

(01:10:59):
with you know slices you knowinto like a nice bento box with
you know purified water.
And I'm saying, like who givesa shit?
Just put like a zone bar in abrown paper bag, and like you
don't need to slice the apple.
Like what is our minimumstandard of care here?
Right?
And so I think the humor and whywe're all laughing about this
is because it's more fun to talkabout in the past, because then

(01:11:21):
you can be like, oh well, I'mpredictable, because I'm, you
know, the kid that grew up withcockroaches, seth.
So that's why I'm stalking youabout garbage again, as opposed
to what is wrong with you.
Like do you not see it that ourkids need to eat healthy?
And I'm like, actually, no, Idon't see that.
Like to me, processed food hasfortified vitamins.
I grew up with it.
There's literally I don't wantto.

Speaker 3 (01:11:42):
I'd rather spend my money on experiences.
You're like I went to Harvardand I grew up on Lucky Charms.

Speaker 1 (01:11:45):
Yes, exactly, and for 12 years, the only thing I ever
ate it for lunch was I'd go tothe local store and get a
toasted bagel, add steak friesin the middle, extra ketchup.
So you know, my point being isthat we assume so much about
what the other person is goingto see and the lens that they're

(01:12:08):
going to see it with that itreally can, um sideline
decision-making in a veryinefficient way.
And so that's where I think,even if men weren't at first
receptive to the pain that theyheard in my storytelling, they
were receptive to the idea that,wow, if we have this minimum

(01:12:28):
standard of care conversationonce, then I like never have to
hear about this again.
Garbage can just go out once aday, and then I don't have to
have a garbage stalker, you know.
So it becomes a lot moreaccurate and efficient.

Speaker 3 (01:12:42):
Exactly, yeah, we have the garbage conversation of
.
I would like the garbage cansout by Monday night at this time
.
Yeah yeah, it's six, because itwas, oh, are you going to do it
?
And he's like yeah, I was goingto do it after the kids go to
bed and I'm like alreadystressed that it's not going to
be out by tomorrow morning.
And he's like that's soexcessive and I'm like that is
where my mind goes, pleasethat's my exact.

(01:13:04):
Yeah, yeah, so again I mean, Iwas, I was a garbage stalker,
yep, garbage stalker.

Speaker 1 (01:13:10):
Same thing, you know.
Just throw the extra liner bagsaround and just put it near his
pillow and he's like why isthere a garbage bag on my pillow
?
Because you didn't put theliner back in yeah, you didn't
put the liner back in.
He's like you didn't put theliner back in.
He's like I was about to putthe liner back in, I just had to
pee, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:13:25):
It's like how dare you?
Oh my gosh.
The part of the book we can endhere.
The part of the book where Ithink one of your girlfriends
puts the wet laundry on the bedthe wet laundry.

Speaker 1 (01:13:36):
Yeah, you know it was so funny, it was great.
But you know we've all beenthere.
It was so funny, it was great,but you know what was funny
about her?
What was funny about her wasthat she said to me she doesn't
communicate about domestic life.

Speaker 3 (01:13:47):
Well.
But then tells me she dumps wetclothes on her partner's pillow
.
Yeah, it's a communication.

Speaker 2 (01:13:53):
We all communicate differently, so maybe we end on
that yeah, everybodycommunicates we are
communicating about domesticlife.

Speaker 1 (01:14:02):
I can go on your Nest Cam today.
Jess and Brandon can go on yourNest Cam today.
We will see the five to 10 waysyou've communicated about
domestic life.
So look at this as a shift andnot a start.

Speaker 3 (01:14:10):
Yes, absolutely love this.
You have to get the book.
Everybody Fair play.
You have to get the cards,although correct me if I'm wrong
, eve I think they're for freeonline where you can just print
them, but these are beautiful,exactly, and I like beautiful
things, so I bought the cards.

Speaker 1 (01:14:24):
Yes, we're a nonprofit institute.
Now we're the Fair Play PolicyInstitute, so if anybody can't
afford any of our resources wehave in the show notes, you can
reach out to our team, perfectInfo at fairplaypolicyorg.
We can provide you with any ofthe resources if you want to get

(01:14:45):
started.
We also have a lot of resourceson the website that hopefully
you can link to in the shownotes.
So we're really here to youknow, spread the message as
equitably as we can.

Speaker 3 (01:14:55):
Thank you so much for all of the work for helping so
many.
I'll just say people feel seen.
All of the work for helping somany.
I'll just say people feel seenmake their relationships better,
stronger, sexier, all thethings because it really has
impacted our lives.
I talk about every single friendwe have knows that.
We've read the book, we've gotthe cards.
We try to put a system in placeas much as we possibly can, and

(01:15:19):
so we just wanted to share thisfar and wide with our audience,
because you really havetransformed how we operate in
our home, and we know thatothers can do it too.

Speaker 2 (01:15:27):
And, honestly, all these stories, I think kind of
make me look better, to behonest.

Speaker 1 (01:15:30):
They do yeah, oh yeah , well you're, you are wonderful
, and I think again.
But but the reason, like what Ihear in your banter, like I
said earlier, we knew that, Imean, we know again.
But but the reason why, likewhat I hear in your banter, like
I said earlier, we knew that, Imean, we know again, life is
not easy, but there is a certaintenderness and um and trust

(01:15:53):
that I see in couples who havestarted to understand that both
of their time is valuable andthey're willing to work with the
other person to see it theirway, and I see that in both of
you.
And so, like I said, I justappreciate the fact that you've
devoted time in your life to dothis podcast and to be cultural
warriors and to push back onnorms, and you know we see your

(01:16:17):
work and it's so, so valuable.

Speaker 3 (01:16:19):
Thank you so much for saying that.
Well, that's a perfect endingEve, so we'll just end there.
Thank you so much for beingwith us today.
We so appreciate you and thework that you're doing.

Speaker 2 (01:16:28):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:16:30):
Don't forget, benjamin Franklin said an
investment in knowledge pays thebest interest you just got paid
Until next time.

Speaker 3 (01:16:47):
Thanks for listening to today's episode.
We are so glad to have you aspart of our Sugar Daddy
community.
If you learned something today,please remember to subscribe,
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Don't forget to connect with uson social media at the sugar
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(01:17:08):
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Speaker 2 (01:17:17):
Our content is intended to be used, and must be
used, for informationalpurposes only.
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You should take independentfinancial advice from a licensed
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