March 19, 2025 • 55 mins
Jessica and Brandon sit down with finance writer and stay at home mom, Jenni Sisson. They discuss her journey from being a stay-at-home mom to personal finance writer while explaining how mothers can build wealth, protect their financial futures, and find fulfillment both within and beyond their parenting roles.
In this episode we talk about about:
-The market value of a SAHMs unpaid labor and hidden opportunity costs
- Financial protections and considerations for SAHMs
-Side hustles and personal fulfillment
Watch this episode in video form on YouTube
To apply to be a guest on the show
You can email us at: thesugardaddypodcast@gmail.com
Be sure to connect with us on socials @thesugardaddypodcast we are most active on Instagram
Learn more about Brandon and schedule a free 30-minute introductory call with him
Please remember to subscribe, rate, and review.
Notes from the show:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And for me, I love my kids.
They're a wonderful part of mylife, they're maybe an essential
part of my life, but workingfills a bucket that the kids
don't fill for me, and I'vetalked to a lot of stay-at-home
moms that feel the same, and Ithink that's why you see so many
stay-at-home moms with a sidehustle or working from home or
doing these things, things,because you know the like.
(00:22):
Staying at home with your kids,it's that cultivating that
relationship, but it also likeit's.
That's the mom side of me, notthe Jenny side of me.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Hey babe, what are we talking about?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
money flow.
Hey, babe, what are we talkingabout Today?
We are talking aboutstay-at-home moms leveling up
their personal finance, and it'sso important because there's so
many things that stay-at-homemoms can do to ensure that they
are also building and growingwealth, and I think that is
something that we have nottalked about in the past.
And it's such an importanttopic because there's so many
stay at home moms or moms thatare transitioning from the
(01:09):
workforce to be at home morewith their children because of
this crazy world that we live in, and we know that the time we
spend with our children is soprecious and so fleeting.
And so we want to talk abouthow to grow wealth, build wealth
and be fiscally responsible asa stay-at-home mom.
And we've got the perfectperson to do that A mom of five,
(01:30):
jenny Sisson, is with us today,and we're so glad to have you.
Thanks for having me.
We're excited.
Let's get into your bio, jenny,because and I don't want to say
you're just a stay-at-home mom,because there's no such thing
as just a stay-at-home mom Don'tever let that phrase come out
of your mouth, right?
But you do work.
And so we're going to get intoyour bio and into your
(01:52):
background, and I'm excited forthis conversation.
Jenny Sisson is a personalfinance writer.
She's been published inBusiness Insider, newsweek,
marketwatch, finance Buzz andFox Money.
In addition to writing, jennyhosts the Mama's Money Map
podcast to help fellowstay-at-home moms on their
journey to financial freedom.
She is also a wife and mom tofour bio kids and one foster kid
(02:15):
.
She has lived in eight USstates and Russia.
We're going to need to talkabout that Russia part.
When she's not writing orpodcasting about personal
finance, she's hiking along theWasatch Front, baking something
with chocolate in it or beatingsomeone at Scrabble.
Thank you, jenny, for beingwith us today.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Thanks so much for inviting me.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
All right.
We start all of our episodeswith a guest talking about your
first money memory.
So let's dive in to that.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Let's dive in to that .
My first money memory is when Iwas how old was I?
I must have been about eightyears old and I was shopping
with my mom at Target and Iremember there was some shirt or
dress or something I wanted andshe said, oh, let's wait until
that goes on sale.
And little me, I was like, oh,okay, that's cool.
(03:03):
Like you know, like I want itnow, now, but okay, I'll get it
eventually.
You know so.
And now, as a parent, I'm sureshe was like putting me off of
something I wouldn't care aboutin five minutes, um, but I also
think that it was her way ofseeing like, okay, it's too
expensive right now, but if theprice comes down we might pull
the trigger, and just kind ofbeing mindful about how much
(03:25):
we're spending, and especiallyon things that aren't essential,
so kind of mindfully choosingwhen to spend money.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Yeah, we've been talking to our kids about that a
lot the difference betweenneeds and wants and pushing back
when they think something is aneed and you know it's obviously
a want, but they're starting tocatch on and it's it's been
good discussion and, uh, we didit last year too, when we, you
know, since we're coming up onthe holiday season we adopted,
(03:54):
um, you know, some children tobuy gifts for, and we talked to
them about the list.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
yeah, the the Salvation Army Angels.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Yeah, through the Salvation Army.
Yes, we did not adopt children.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
We're just for the holidays.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
But we, you know, we adopted a few children through
the Salvation Army Angelsprogram, and so we purposefully
got children that were the sameage as our children and we were
going through the list of theirsize, clothing, and they needed
socks and underwear and actualtrue essentials.
And then, of course, they had along list of toys.
And so we said, if we have thismuch money to spend on each
(04:34):
child, what do you think weshould buy first?
And our daughter, who's theolder one, did a really good job
of saying well, it's nice tohave a doll, but it's really
important to have underwear,like yes, that is absolutely
correct, mesler's hierarchy ofneeds, exactly, and so just kind
(04:54):
of incorporating those thingsinto our daily conversations, or
we don't want our kids to havea scarcity mindset, so reframing
, like what your mom said ofwell, let's wait until it goes
on sale, right, which sometimeswe'll just say we'll see, we'll
talk about it later and that'sabsolutely us being like no,
we're just, this is done, butwe'll talk about it later.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
We'll see it was not a no, but in my mind it already
is kind of probably a no.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
It's a no, yeah, no, I was just going to say or we
were not prioritizing t-shirtsright now, right, and just
changing the way we talk aboutis it a yes or is it a no.
I think is really important andsomething that I've been trying
to be more mindful about.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Yeah, and sometimes it's helpful to have that delay
because it kind of sifts out forthe kids what is their real
priority.
Because if, like I've beendreaming of a drum set, I've got
a daughter that wants to playthe drums and I'm like, okay, is
this like flavor of the week,or does she actually legit want
to play the drums?
And it's, it stood the test oftime, you know not just, rather
than being a fleeting like, oh Ijust saw some cool YouTube
(05:57):
video and now I want to do thisversus yeah, no this is really a
passion of mine.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Right, yeah, well, because their minds just run a
mile a minute and what'simportant right now is not
important at all an hour fromnow, and so mitigating that and
you want to foster their trueinterest.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
but you want to make sure it's their true interest
before you put a big financialbacking behind it.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Correct.
And also this will be yourinterest for the next six weeks
because we signed you up, thankyou, and then you can undo that
interest, but it is paid for.
So it will be your interest forthe next six weeks because we
signed you up, thank you, andthen you can undo that interest,
but it is paid for.
So it will be your interest forthe next six weeks.
Yeah, talk to us about yourpersonal finance journey and how
you got to writing for thesenational publications about
(06:39):
money and wanting to help otherstay athome moms be better with
their money and work towardstheir financial freedom goals.
Have you been listening to ourpodcast and wondering how am I
really doing with my money?
Am I doing the right thingswith my investments?
Am I on track to reach myfinancial goals?
(07:01):
What could I be doing better?
If you answered yes to any ofthese questions, then it's time
for you to reach my financialgoals.
What could I be doing better?
If you answered yes to any ofthese questions, then it's time
for you to reach out to Brandonto schedule your free yes, I
said free 30-minute introductionconversation to see how his
services could help make you themore confident moneymaker we
know you could be.
What are you waiting for?
It's literally free and at thevery least, you'll walk away
(07:24):
feeling more empowered andconfident about your financial
future.
Link is in our show notes.
Go, schedule your call today.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
It's kind of difficult to know where to start
that conversation because itgoes way back, so I'll try to
TLDR it.
I majored in linguistics, whichsounds it's fascinating field.
It's not the most useful fieldin the world and so but I kind
of always knew that I wanted tostay home with my kids.
And that was I saw my mom do.
She never really had a job, shejust stayed home with us and,
(07:58):
and so that was kind of my plan.
And so I got married about thesame time as I graduated college
and then shortly thereafter ourson was born and so I stayed
home while working part time alittle bit here and there.
And it kind of came to the pointwhere I knew our youngest was
going to be going back to schooland I'm like I don't want to do
the same things that I wantedto do with my degree back then.
(08:23):
And so I kind of had thismidlife crisis of, okay, now I'm
30 something, what do I want tobe when I grow up?
And I kind of took it like,okay, I need to figure out what
can I make money doing, what amI good at?
And like, what's there a demandfor and what will allow me to
still have the flexibility to beat home with my kids, because I
still definitely wanted to bethere for them, like when they
(08:46):
get home from school and thingslike that, and so, and at the
time, I had this night jobworking in a local hotel, which
was awful.
I hated it.
And so, in a bid to just getany port in a storm, I had heard
of freelance writing.
I'm like, well, I love personalfinance.
I'd gone down the Dave Ramseyrabbit hole years before and
then had, you know, come in tunewith like the fire movement and
(09:07):
things too, after that and Iwas like, well, I love personal
finance and I'm reading allthese articles, so somebody must
be getting paid to write them.
So I got, I hopped on Upwork,which is a freelance website
it's kind of like Craigslist forfreelance writing and other
freelance things and just kindof started there and grew it
(09:28):
from getting paid like fivecents a word and then just
gradually working up and up andgetting more experience in my
niche of personal finance andstarted reaching out to people
on LinkedIn, got a lot ofconnections through FinCon, the
conference we go to, and fromthere I started getting bylines
in major publications.
It took a while, but that's howI built my career from scratch
(09:52):
and from my living room.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
I love that.
I think too.
I mean I work in my homebecause I work remote, but quote
unquote outside of the home.
But what you said about beinghome when your kids are home,
it's just something.
You know.
Our kids are home by three.
Clearly, my workday does not endat three, as much as there are
days that I would like for it to, but I'm here and I can
schedule myself in a way where,when they come home, for the
(10:17):
most part I can give them bighugs, I can make them a snack, I
can help prep dinner, you know,and I'm here every night when
they're here for dinner, right,and so I do think what you were
saying.
I knew that I wanted to be homefor my kids.
Now that we're able to beremote and work in this new way,
(10:38):
it does offer so many morepossibilities of structuring
your life more the way you wantto, which I think is important.
Like if somebody asked me todrive, you know, round trip two
hours into work every day, it'sa non-starter for me.
Like it's not, because I mean Isee my kids in the morning for
less than an hour and then whenthey get home, until the time
(11:00):
they go to bed for a few hoursand I don't want to impede on
that time together.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
I also think it's very interesting how, from a
study standpoint, we know howimportant it is to spend,
especially those early yearswith your kids as much time as
possible, but the US workforceis not structured around doing
that.
And it's just so odd to mebecause we know the benefits
long-term of that leads to abetter person that's going on to
(11:27):
society, but we put so manyhurdles in place to not make it
easy for families to do that.
It's just mind baffling to me.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, and I think in these days I feel like, with the
economy the way it is, it'sgetting even harder to just rely
on one person's income tosustain a family, even if you
only have one or two kids, andit's nearly impossible when you
get and that was another reasonfor, um, you know, building my
careers so that we have fewerfail points Cause if my husband
(11:56):
were to get laid off and that'shappened before, you know like
then we're a hundred percent outof income, whereas if you're,
if you have two incomes, there'sless risk.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Like you know, there's.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
There's perks and drawbacks to both, but it's it's
really hard.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
And also also even depends on, like, for example,
what your your career is priorto maybe becoming a stay-at-home
mom, if you do have one.
I mean, we have friends whohave had four kids, and the mom
was a elementary school teacherand I was, like you know, having
this many kids with how muchwe're going to pay for daycare.
I'm just trading my you knowteaching salary for straight to
daycare.
I might as well stay at homeand spend the time, and you know
(12:33):
that I would like to spend mykids, so you have to factor all
that stuff in as well.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Yeah, yeah, and that's.
That's a lot of the kind of thedeal breaker for a lot of moms
and a lot of families, I think,is like it literally does not
make financial sense for me towork and it.
But then you also have tofactor in like, okay, staying in
my field, staying credentialed,staying up on the technology
depending on what field you'rein there's opportunity costs
(12:58):
there and I kind of I went intobeing a stay at home mom, not
realizing some of thoseopportunity costs.
It worked, it worked out for me.
But I really wish if I could goback and tell my younger self,
like these are things you needto think about.
Is like stay-at-home mom, it's,it's not a career choice, it's
a lifestyle choice, but it's nota career.
And then, um, and I wish Iwould have kind of gone into
(13:22):
that thinking a little harderabout like, okay, this is my
choice for this time in my lifeand I don't regret that choice.
It was definitely the best formy family.
But I really wish I would haveseen more of the long game.
Like, okay, that works now,when you're, you know, 28.
When you're 35, what do youwant to do when you're 47, 52,
60?
Like, what do you still justwant to be at home?
(13:43):
60?
Like what?
Do you still just want to be athome, or is there something
else more fulfilling that youwant to do once your kids are
grown and flown?
Speaker 2 (13:50):
And it was hard for you, Like there wasn't, that
wasn't modeled in the sense ofbeing able to know, to have
those thoughts and conversationsprior to you know, being a stay
at home mom.
That information wasn'tavailable, that wasn't.
People weren't even thinkingabout that.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
So it makes it hard to have that Well and also yeah,
absolutely.
And also like back in like myparents' generation, like it was
totally possible for my familyto rely on my dad's income.
So financially that wasn'treally a consideration and my
mom wasn't.
My mom also wasn't chomping atthe bit to go get a job.
She was very fulfilled withbeing a mother.
Like that was very fulfillingto her and for me.
(14:25):
I love my kids.
They're a wonderful part of mylife.
Kids, they're a wonderful partof my life.
They're maybe an essential partof my life.
But working fills a bucket thatthe kids don't fill for me, and
I've talked to a lot ofstay-at-home moms that feel the
same and I think that's why yousee so many stay-at-home moms
with a side hustle or workingfrom home or doing these things,
because you know the like.
(14:48):
Staying at home with your kids,it's that cultivating that
relationship.
But it also like it's that'sthe mom's side of me, not the
Jenny side of me.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
So I would also say, like, obviously this is not your
situation, but and you know toomany situations you do have,
like in the United States,almost a 50% divorce rate.
So if you, as a woman, chooseto be a stay at home mom, and
then you have that gap in yourresume, you haven't been
building up, you know savingspecifically for yourself, and
then you know your kids aregetting ready to, you know, go
(15:19):
back to school or whatever itmay be, and now you're
separating from your spouse.
You're like, what do I do?
And I've heard of way too manysituations where that's that's,
that's how the woman ends up andit's not a good situation.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah, and doing kind of some research for my own
podcast, I'm like, okay, well,what?
What other stay at home moms?
I know my experience.
But what other stay at momsexperience?
And I joined several FacebookFacebook groups and I saw that
month after month after month,I've been a stay at home mom for
10, 15 years and now my husbandcheated on me or we're getting
divorced.
(15:54):
Now what do I do?
And you have to start fromscratch.
And one of the other thingsthat kind of got me thinking
about a career is I had a friendin high school.
He and I knew each other sincethe sixth grade.
He took me on my first date andhe got married to another dear
friend right out of high school,which is like mind blowing.
When you're 18 and you're,you're going to your best
(16:16):
friend's wedding, um.
But he was killed in amotorcycle accident when we were
27 and left behind a wife who I, who was also a dear friend,
and their three kids and um, andthe month after I got back from
his funeral I got into a badcar wreck too and luckily I
walked away from it and harmed.
But it was a real wake up callLike this could happen to me.
Like kind of when you're inyour twenties you have this
(16:38):
vague idea of like oh yeah,death happens, but you don't
think it's going to happen toyou, and realizing what happens
if my spouse dies, like that isa hundred percent possible and I
have no way to provide for mykids.
And you know, I still need tobe at home with them.
They're still tinies.
But I need to get a plan inplace beyond just life insurance
(17:01):
, to figure out to how toprovide for my family if the
worst would happen death,disability, divorce what have
you?
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Yeah, I thought we had Aaron Thomas on Family Law
Attorney and he focuses onprenups and we were talking in
our episode about if you do have, for example, a stay at home
mom, if you have a prenup inplace, you could put in the
protections into the prenup thatsays you know X amount of the
(17:30):
income every month is going togo into this type of an account
to build your retirement as well.
Not just you know the husband,if it's a, you know,
heteronormative relationship,the husband putting away for
retirement is 401k and IRA etc.
Like putting actual retirementaccounts in place for the stay
at home mom on top of disabilityinsurance and life insurance
(17:54):
and having those protections inplace.
Because, just from a basicstandpoint, if you're a
stay-at-home mom, you are thechauffeur, you're the cook,
you're the person who does thelaundry, you're the housekeeper,
you're the tutor, you're doingall those things 24-7.
24-7.
If you are in that car accidentthat you were just describing
and the outcome would have beenunfavorable, what would your
(18:15):
partner have done in that timewith the children?
Would they have to take off ofwork, which then again impacts
the family income?
I mean, there's so manysnowball scenarios that can
happen in an instant and if youdon't have those protections in
place for both of the people inthe relationship, it can be
(18:35):
really detrimental if somethingwere to happen.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
I think, unfortunately, the conversation
that is starting to be had thatshould have been had for a long
time is the monetary value thatstay-at-home moms actually have,
even though they're not beingpaid for their work.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Unpaid labor.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
And you can put a monetary value to it.
You know, when I've I've workedwith clients that have, you
know, a stay at home the wife isa stay at home mom and I was
like you could put a dollaramount on all the things I said
you could put.
I should say this you could putan approximate dollar amount
because we're let's be honest-you're not going to be able to
(19:15):
put a dollar amount that youcould put on the work they
really do Priceless, but isn'tit like, on average, like
$180,000 a year if you breakdown all the roles?
It's something ridiculousbecause it's a 24-7, nonstop job
that you're doing husband tomaximize his potential in his
career, because some of thethings that he can take on and
(19:35):
do he wouldn't be able to do ifhe didn't have a supportive wife
that could handle everythingelse at home.
Right, I think that's aconversation that has been
missed and is desperately needed, and I'm glad that you know
it's starting to be talked about.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Me too, and just for all the reasons you touched on,
we have life insurance for me aswell, because, you're right,
like you kind of take forgranted that someone is on call
24 7, for in case it's a sickday, in case there's a half day
don't get me started with ohyeah half days at school but
random teacher work days or justthere's there and I feel like
(20:12):
no week in my house is normal,because there's always a half
day, or someone's sick, orsomeone has a field trip or a
project or has to be somewhereto do something like an
appointment, like there's alwayssomething going on, and and to
have someone there 24 7,available to field whatever
comes, like you say, that's nighinto priceless.
(20:35):
You could not pay someone elseto do that.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Yeah, no, talk to us about Mama's Money Map and where
that idea came from and whatyou're working on helping
stay-at-home moms with and howyou're doing that.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah, it kind of the idea, for it was born when I was
driving my kids to school andwe lived in a rural area, so the
drive was long, so I listenedto a lot of podcasts and, like I
said, I'd kind of fallen downthe personal finance route hole.
And I was listening to thispodcast and I won't tell you
which one it is.
It's a very large one and Ihave fierce respect for this
podcaster, so I won't say whatit is.
But she was talking about how,uh, like a productivity hacks
(21:14):
and things, and one of thethings that she suggested was um
, you can sleep one less hour atnight.
I'm like, are you kidding me?
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Like I feel like I know who this podcast was.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Yes, it was someone without kids and, honestly, for
someone without kids, they'reliving a totally different life,
with different needs, and youknow if you're you know
different luxuries sleep inAbsolutely, and so that would
have made sense for them, but itdid not make sense for me.
And then I realized, like thisperson isn't talking to me for
my situation, I think even ifthat person was right next to me
(21:51):
and saw my life as a fly on thewall, they would realize oh
that, yeah, maybe that's not agood fit for you.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
But I also didn't feel like there was anyone
talking to stay at home moms,with some of the limitations
that they have and some of thelike, even the psychological
elements of I'm not making anymoney and I sort of feel guilty
about that and I want tocontribute that all my labor is
unpaid and I get, you know, paidin sticky kisses.
It's it there are differenthurdles to clear and I wanted to
(22:19):
talk specifically to some ofthose families that had some of
those same you know issues,challenges.
To have some someone else thathad been through the same thing
talk to them.
I was like, oh, I could do that.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
So that's kind of what Mama's Money Map is
designed to be, I think tellingpeople just wake up at 3 am to
have your hour of coffee andyour meditation time
uninterrupted.
Even if I did that at 3 am, itwould still be interrupted.
At 3am it would still beinterrupted, I guarantee you,
(22:54):
because our son still comes inand interrupts our sleep on a
regular, very regular basis.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
And I love that you, you know, have that revelation
and you're like I can createsomething that speaks to the
women that are going through thesame things that I'm going
through.
Because even as a dad like Itry to be as present as possible
.
That's exactly, you know, thetype of dad that I want to be.
The reality is is that, like Ithink, as a dad, unless, like
you, are a single dad and you'retaking care of your kids by
(23:19):
yourself, the extra stuff'salways going to fall to the mom,
like that's just as much as youwant to try and be, you know,
50, 50, it's just not.
And I realized that, as much asI would like it to be, the
things do fall to her.
So, like I can't evenunderstand from that standpoint,
because I'm not having thatexperience.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Right, that's the mental load that they talked
about.
There has to be a logisticscoordinator, someone that knows
all the appointments and thebirthdays and the insurance
details and you know and on andon, all these little details and
, like you say, it's it's hardto quantify that and it's hard
to explain that and it's alsohard to delegate that.
Like I'm lucky that I have areally supportive husband and he
(24:02):
supported me through thestay-at-home mom years and now
Trish transitioning to moreequitable with he and I are both
working and he's always askinglike what can I do to take off
your plate?
But I'm still logisticscoordinator, I'm still the one
that knows the things that needto be done.
So and there's a burden thatcomes with that.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Yeah, we have an exciting episode.
By the time this comes out,that one will have come out with
Eve Rodsky on making your homemore equitable.
So shout out to Eve and fairplay.
If you haven't read it,definitely give that a read.
And that's exactly what thatconversation is about is making
the invisible visible and allthe things that go into daily
(24:47):
life as a parent and as a parentof multiple children that all
have different needs, differentthings happening in their
classrooms, withextracurriculars.
They need to be in differentplaces at different times.
Oh, we got to get this birthdayparty gift for this birthday,
and I mean, it's just, it isliterally nonstop.
Oh, and now they have to wearan orange polka dotted shirt on
Tuesday for Dalmatian day.
(25:08):
You know what?
No, no, it makes me want tojust like rip all my hair out
when I get the calendars thatare like yeah wear this on
spirit day Like.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
I want to touch on that.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Nobody, nobody.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
I want to touch on the one thing that I just heard
you say about, you know, thefeeling of guilt, because all
the work that you do isn'tnecessarily quantifiable from a
dollar standpoint, as you know,going into your pocket.
That's always interesting to mebecause I guess it's a little
bit different how I grew up,like I grew up, my mom raised my
brother and I by herself, andso she had to play both roles by
(25:49):
herself and so she had to playboth roles.
But it's also very interestingwhere, like I've seen that
interaction, where you know youhave to stay at home, mom, and,
like you said, there is someguilt because you're, like, I'm
not bringing in money to helpsupport the family when, like,
you are literally supporting thefamily, you know, and the
dynamic that can could be apositive or it could be a
(26:09):
negative dynamic in regards towhen discussing money, when
you're not quote unquotebringing in money like how to
divide it, how like making yourhousehold rules?
yeah, like what conversationsyou have, because I'm gonna go
on the opposite of the negativestandpoint.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
We I have no scenarios where you know, we
know people who, the mom hasbeen stay at home and the
husband is the one working andthe husband makes large
financial decisions withouthaving a conversation buying a
car like I'm gonna go buy amercedes or I'm gonna go buy a
bmw car without having aconversation with my wife about
it, and I think, almost theyfeel like they can make that
(26:43):
decision because they quoteunquote bring in the money yeah,
yeah, do you talk to, oh, toyour uh, mama's money map folks
about things like that and howto make sure that those
financial goals and rules are inalignment and in place?
Or?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
well, it's still a pretty new podcast, so that
hasn't come up yet, but that is,oh my gosh, that's a
gut-wrenching.
I hate those car commercialsthat glorify honey about you a
car that's my husband knows likehe would not come.
He, he would not ever come homewith a new car.
No, no.
But I think if you do choose tobe a stay-at-home parent and I
(27:24):
know personal finance ispersonal and everyone has to do
what works best for their family, you know, has to do what works
best for their family but Ican't see a case for not
completely pooling all financialmeans into one pot in a family
that has a stay at home parent,because, like you said, every
bit of that parent's work isuncompensated financially and so
(27:47):
it's it's insane to me thatanyone would feel entitled I
mean kind of go back to brandonwhat you're saying like the
supporting the family, thestay-at-home mom is kind of the
legs the family stands on insome regards and so doing, going
and making financial decisions,it's kind of like cutting your
legs out from under you and in away, um, I think, and even if
(28:10):
you have a family where thehusband and wife are both
working or the spouses are bothworking and both bringing in an
even-ish income, all of thosebig financial decisions should
still go through both partiesbecause they affect both parties
.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Yeah, totally agree.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
I almost view it as disrespectful like no, it is, it
is disrespectful.
Like you don't.
It seems as though, like youdon't value your spouse as a
true partner right and that'sthe part that, like, would rub
me the wrong way because, youknow, just makes more than I do.
And even if roles were reversed, like, our decisions for large
(28:52):
purchases are always madetogether because we are working
as a team.
And that's always, you know,baffling to me when people don't
have those conversations,because then you're not truly
working as a team.
And if you're not working as ateam, I find it very hard to
believe that you're going toaccomplish any great goals that
you guys have.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
you know, from a financial standpoint accomplish
any great goals that you guyshave.
You know, from a financialstandpoint, yeah, and having a
supportive working spouse, Ifeel like, is critical to making
the stay at home decision evenpossible, because otherwise it
opens the door to, like you said, some of those financial
decisions that run the gamut ofdisrespect to full.
On financial abuse, yeah, wedefinitely.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
I think that's why it's important for absolutely.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
It's important for state home moms to even think
about things like credit scoreand, like you said, retirement
savings and things like that,because just because you're not
working doesn't mean you don'tneed access to money or to
become familiar with money.
The nice thing that I'm findingis, in most cases that I know
of and I don't have you knowstatistics to back this up, but
(29:53):
just my anecdotal experiencemost of the time the stay at
home mom is the one managing themoney, even if she's not making
it.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Yeah, that's the experience for my mom.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
I would say that's also historically, like you know
, even going back to, like youknow, our parents.
You know, uh, our parents'parents in the 50s, 60s, 70s.
The husband is the one working,but who's actually managing the
home and the finances?
The wife.
So this isn't something new.
It's just that it wasn't spokenabout openly.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Right, it was just understood back then.
I think as a general.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
I want to touch on two things, Jenny.
The first is for anybodylistening that is a stay at home
mom or maybe is looking totransition into being a stay at
home mom Are there a fewfundamental strategies or tips
that you would give them of whatkind of things to be aware of,
to look for, to ask for, to makesure that they have in place?
(30:51):
And then part two is when wespoke previously, you have five
children right and on a lessthan high income, and so
(31:13):
managing a large family on alower income.
Would love to hear how you'redoing that, because life is so
expensive too.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Yeah, and it's evolved over time.
So back to your first question.
Remind me what it was.
I'm sorry, I was waiting forthat.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
I was like that was a long question.
I know I'm sorry that was on me, that was on me.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
I got excited.
I got excited.
What kind of things should stayat home?
Moms that are either alreadystay at home moms or looking to
become stay at home moms have inplace as protections to make
sure that things are moreequitable in their home.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
I think really open, honest communication with your
spouse is at the core and Ithink, almost overly
communicating what's happeningwith the finances, what your
plans are for the future, likeI'm only going to stay home
until you know little Susie's inpreschool and then I'm going
(32:03):
back to work, or I want to havethis many kids so I'll be out of
the workforce for this long, orthen we'll switch, like some
families switch, and have thedad stay at home after a while
if they both have careers goinginto it and it's we use this
broad term, stay at home mom orstay at home parent when really
it's really blurry exactly whatthat means.
(32:26):
I think a generation ago itwould have been different and
maybe it's just that you take asacrifice and get a work at home
job that's either part-time orthat is a lesser pay so you can
be at home with the kids, likeit just it's.
It takes so many differentforms and I think the one core
that will on both parents, boththe working spouse and the
(32:49):
stay-at-home spouse, change andevolve over time and so keeping
(33:14):
in touch with your partner aboutwhat you need and being very
honest about what you need andif you're getting burnt out and
if you're feeling unfulfilled,or if maybe your partner wants
to change your career and whatthat means for you, staying at
home, like just constantlycommunicating that with your
spouse, to figure out a planthat works for you both.
I also think, looking to thefuture, like do you want to just
(33:38):
not work for the rest of yourlife?
People don't.
There are some people that youknow mothering fills that bucket
and then that's and I'mobviously speaking to
heteronormative relationshipsbut like that fills your bucket
and you don't need anything else.
But I think that's theexception rather than the rule.
So, just looking for a plan forthe future, even if that's five
, 10 years down the road, likemy plan for freelance writing to
(34:01):
grow it was a five-year planand it did take about five years
to get to the point where I'mlike, oh, this could be a
full-time thing.
It's not because I'm still,because half days are still a
thing, but just looking a littlefurther down the road and
realizing that the life evolvesand changes and what.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
I hear is a similarity to how financial
planning should be done.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
Communication and planning and timelines right and
your goals.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
And realizing that things evolve and change and,
like you said, it's not just theidea of a plan, it's the
constant practice of planning asthings change.
No-transcript, two days out ofthe week.
(35:17):
I was having her at homeinitially and as an infant I was
like, oh you know, I can getsome work done and whatnot.
And I quickly realized that isnot.
It's not going to be productive, like you think you're going to
get something done and then Ihave to do something with her.
He's like I wrote one email andthen like you know you get
thrown off, Then it takes you awhile to get back in the swing
(35:37):
and then something else happens.
So like I definitely was not astay at home, you know, parent
by any means to the full extent,but like I got a glimpse at it
and I was like this is tough.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
And also babies.
Don't just sleep all day.
So I think that's themisconception of like oh, you
can get so much done, why isn'tthis huge pile of laundry done?
The baby just slept all day andit's like oh.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
I don't know why, I don't know how I forgot about
that, like I hadn't even thoughtabout that.
You probably tucked it away hadsome ptsd from it.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
We forget a lot.
Well, and the hard part too isas a mom.
The kids chop up your day.
So bad like someone needs aband-aid, someone gets hungry.
You know someone had anaccident, so you know like it's
if it's not one thing, it'sanother.
And that that choppiness makesit, you know, erodes your
productivity, no matter ifyou're folding laundry or
(36:26):
checking emails, it doesn'tmatter.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
Yeah, exactly, talk to us about how you're.
I mean, you're a family ofseven and you're making it work.
We have two and I'm like howdoes anybody with more than two
feed their kids, buy berries fortheir kids, put them in
activities Like I don'tunderstand?
Help us make it make sense,jenny.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
So I should add, like , like we said, life grows and
life changes.
And so I have four bio kids andmy father he's not an official
foster, he was, he just kind ofcame to live with us
unofficially.
Long story, I'll save it,that's another part.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
Okay, another part two.
Oh my God, wait, how old is he?
Can we know how old he is?
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Well, he's 18 now, so luckily, so actually I didn't
really talk about him beforejust cause his yeah, I was
worried about bio parents andstuff like that on the internet,
so, but he's 18, so he's anadult, so he's actually moved
out now and he's got his job andis thriving in his new, his new
job and new place.
So, um, but before, we had fourkids for most of my mothering
(37:32):
experience, and my husband is awildlife biologist, which took
us to a lot of remote areas,because that's where the
wildlife are, is where thehumans aren't, and so we have
lived all over the place.
Yeah, well, some, some of them,them.
West Texas is not a beautifulplace, but we've lived in
(37:53):
Nebraska and South Dakota andMontana and, um, upstate New
York, um, so all these differentplaces you know, each one is
its own story, but, um, again,whole nother podcast.
So, but all of them have onething in common and that's that
the cost of living is very lowin most of the places we've
(38:14):
lived.
Um, we're actually fortunateenough in West Texas to have our
housing subsidized as part ofmy husband's job, and that was
huge.
Um, and I know a lot of peoplehouse hack or there's, and it's.
It's interesting that in thatpart of the world I think partly
because it's not the prettiestpart of the world there's a lot
more jobs than I realized thathad housing as a benefit, um,
(38:37):
like uh, cowboys, ranchers andeven the teachers out there had
housing um, in some of theserural towns in some of these
rural towns.
So that was a big thing and justthe lower cost of living.
And with that lower cost ofliving there wasn't this
(38:59):
expectation that your kids didevery activity or was doing club
sports.
They're playing in the woodsand playing with each other and
things like that.
So, um, there wasn't as muchpressure to have like the nicest
clothes and things like thatfor the kids, and I think that
was really liberating and Ithink I it was something I took
for granted at the time, but itreally helped us spend money on
(39:20):
what was important and get bywith a lot less.
I also side hustled for thelike.
Basically my husband took careof like the needs and my my side
hustles usually took care ofthe wants.
So that worked out pretty wellyeah.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
That is so interesting because, like you
mentioned some things like Iwould have, I didn't even think
about like the pressure that's,you know, we see like cause of
like where we live and stufflike that of your kids to do all
these activities because allthese other kids are doing these
activities.
I never even like reallythought about that standpoint.
And then also, our daughter,for like a year, was in a
(39:56):
private school and as a kid likeI was always a public school
kid and I was like you know, Iwas like how can you wear
uniforms as an adult?
Speaker 3 (40:02):
uniforms are amazing, the best because you don't have
to worry about buying all theseextra clothes yeah, light, blue
or dark blue and the nice thickone right and our daughter's
school.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
She goes to one daughter that goes to a charter
school and they have a closetactually.
So when you grow out of yourclothes, you just put them back
in the school closet.
And the first thing we did whenwe signed them up is you know,
here, come to the closet andpick khakis and polos or
whatever that fit, because youdon't have to worry about if
they're cool or not, you justhave to worry about if they fit.
It's the same thing everybody'swearing.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
It's so great.
I mean she didn't like it.
It took, I mean, two to threeweeks for her to wrap her head
around.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
She's our creative.
She's our creative.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
She's the creative, she wants to be a fashion
designer, our fashionista.
So for her to have very limitedoptions was not good for her.
It was great for us because themornings are like, very like,
pick out your clothes the nightbefore and even then she wants
to change them.
But I also I feel like theclothes that we did buy for her
(41:02):
lasted longer because she waswearing a uniform all day,
because, like yesterday, shecame home and there was a hole
in her pants, right.
So I felt I felt like thethings that we were purchasing
and spending our money onactually lasted longer because
of the school uniforms.
But I mean, I guess it allcomes out in the wash.
But the call out of some ofthese rural places offering
housing as part of thecompensation package, I mean
(41:24):
that's an excellent thing forsomebody to look into.
That I wasn't aware of thatwould exist.
So I mean, if you can have yourhousing subsidized, that's a
huge chunk, usually the biggestpart of your fixed cost, yeah,
so, yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Yeah, and it actually allowed us to buy a couple of
rentals in that area of theworld, and because the housing
is so cheap, it is a very lowbarrier to entry in real estate,
which is nice as well.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
So are you technically part of the fire
movement, Jenny?
Speaker 1 (41:57):
I mean, I flirted with it for a while.
We made some family decisions.
We we now live in utah, whichis I don't know if you look at
the real estate market, but it'sinsane here, like the cost of
living isn't that badholistically speaking, it's just
the real estate that's reallyrough.
(42:18):
So anyhow, yeah, real estatehere is insane and that's part
of why I'm working more and.
But we came here to be nearfamily.
My dad has Parkinson's and mymom has cancer.
So it was kind of a mindfulchoice to to.
You know, and you can't, it'shard to put a price on that time
(42:39):
, just kind of like with yourkids.
So you make it work.
But we did in answer to yourprevious question, we were kind
of a part of the fire movementfor a long time but also
realizing there was kind of aceiling to my husband's career
and then also moving here, kindof put that on hold.
(43:00):
So we're doing fine, but Idon't think we'll fire, maybe
like five years early, but notquite as early as we're aiming
for before.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
So yeah, well, and the FIRE movement.
For those who are not familiar,it stands for Financial
Independence, retire Early andso when you were talking about
like house hacking and things, Iwas like, wait, is she part of
FIRE?
Because you have to be sointentional?
Right, you have to beintentional to grow your wealth
in general, but if you're like,hey, I want to retire by the
(43:27):
time I'm 37, that's not going tohappen overnight and that's not
going to happen without a planin place.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
But what's funny about the FIRE movement is that
a lot of people, once they getto the R and the E, they're like
I don't necessarily want toretire early, I just want to do
something different.
That's what happens often.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
The people around you or your close friends are a lot
of times, also still working,so what are you doing in the
time that you're?
Speaker 1 (43:55):
off.
What do you do all day yeah?
Speaker 2 (43:56):
What do you?
Speaker 3 (43:57):
your circle is still working.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
There's very few people that are like full fire
and you know, not bringing inany.
You know, you know activeworking income.
They just are financiallyindependent, which is amazing
and great, and now they have theluxury and the ability to
choose what they do from aworking standpoint, which I
think is amazing.
Yeah, the work optional part, Ithink that's what everyone's
working towards in some aspectsis being work optional, having
(44:20):
more free time to choose howthey want to spend that free
time.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
And that's one thing too, that kind of took us out of
like true fire is my husband asa biologist.
He loves his job.
He wakes up ecstatic to go towork every day.
I mean he flies in helicoptersand counts deer and sedates
moose, and I joke that he'sbasically like Indiana Jones and
gets paid for it.
And he so as far as what hewould want to do all day when
he's retired.
He want to do then what he'sdoing now.
So, it's hard to want to likejump ship when you have your
(44:50):
dream job, so that's anotherthing that took us out of true,
pure fire, I guess.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Yeah, well, and it's.
I mean, how many people cantruly say they have a dream job?
I mean so, I mean, that's a,that's such a blessing that he
wakes up excited every day to dowhat he loves.
And if he can do that, becausehe loves it and his attitude is
great and it provides a niceliving, and he can do that for
20 more years Awesome, or 20plus years, I mean, that's,
(45:19):
that's the dream, ultimately,isn't it?
Speaker 2 (45:21):
I think it's also just understanding that, like,
for example, if you are doingfire and and you get to the
point where, like I can retire,you know, at 35.
And the average life expectancyis 85.
Oh, that's a long time, that'sa 50 years, and I, like you know
, with the today's economy, isnot the economy of yesterday.
So you have so many othervariables and when you stretch
(45:43):
out that timeframe even further,the risk is exponentially
higher in regards to not havingenough money.
So you I think a lot of peopledon't take into account some of
the unknown because, like Iremember Jess, like several
years back, before we even gotmarried, so that she had met
somebody and they were retiredearly, and I was like they're
our age and they're retiredearly.
I was like, unless this personhas like seven or $8 million, I
(46:04):
can tell you they're notretiring early.
Like, mathematically that's notgoing to work.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
Yeah, I think it was a temporary fire maybe, but yeah
, yeah, yeah exactly what wouldyou want to leave our listeners
with?
That are working moms.
Stay at home moms, moms thatwould like to be at home more
with their children.
When it comes to their financesand ensuring that they can, you
(46:31):
know, build the life that ismeaningful to them.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
I think you kind of answered it with that last part
is building a life that'smeaningful to you.
A lot of people think like, oh,I can't stay home, I
economically can't stay homewith my kids, like I can't
afford to, and that may be true,but staying at home with your
kids, if that is a priority foryou and if that's what's best
for your family, it's a lot moreachievable than people, than
(46:59):
people really think they think.
You know, I have to send mykids to private school, I have
to they have all theseactivities and I have to, you
know, shower them with Christmaspresents.
Like, if you're willing toscale back your expectations for
your kids' lives and I look,even a generation ago a lot of
that stuff wasn't a highpriority and I feel like kids
(47:20):
today are a lot, in a lot ofcases, kind of overscheduled.
They should go from gymnasticsto karate to, you know, a
tutoring session, to churchactivities and tennis and golf,
and it's like let's just slowdown and let them be kids and
that's free.
And like, obviously, give themenriching experiences so that
(47:40):
they can grow their talents, butmaybe they don't need five of
them.
And so if you're willing, as aparent, to scale back your
expectations of like this lavishchildhood for your kids, then
you probably can give them astay at home parent if that's
important to you and again,there are some people that being
at home with their kids woulddrive them up the wall and make
them into mean mom, which is alot of legit concerns.
(48:04):
This is not a one size fits allthing at all, um, but I
wouldn't.
If that's important to you andif that's what's best for your
family, I wouldn't.
I would dig in to see if youreally can make it work
financially and you may besurprised, um, especially, like
you said, with the savings onchildcare and some of those.
Can you know other conveniences?
(48:25):
Um, it may be more possiblethat people think.
Speaker 3 (48:31):
Yeah, I love, I love that you said that and called
that out, because I do think ourkids are overscheduled.
And one thing that we've beenreally happy about lately is
that our kids they come homefrom school they're at around
three they have a snack and thenthey play with the neighborhood
kids and they are just running,you know, from house to house,
(48:52):
from our backyard to theirbackyard, from the swing set to
the trampoline.
They're doing chalk, they'redoing scooters, they're, you
know, playing basketball outsidethere yesterday things that we
did in the 80s and 90s.
Right, and it's like you said,it's free and they are having a
blast and they're sleepingbetter and they're getting their
energy out and they're innature and in fresh air and that
(49:14):
.
And they don't ask for theirtablets, they're not asking to
watch television, they're notruining the playroom, you know
all the things.
And I'm like, oh, this is freeand I love it and it's great.
And now that's not to say thatwe don't want them to do a team
sport or pick up you know aninstrument down the line.
But I mean for even for mymental health, I'm like I can't
(49:35):
have my kids in five activitieseach.
I mean that's just.
I don't want to be just theirchauffeur where I'm just toting
them around.
So I think, calling that out,or even we've told friends and
family when they're like, whatdo they need for their birthday
or what do they want?
They don't need anything.
Read a book to them, do apuzzle, take them to the library
, take them to the park and havepopsicles after.
Speaker 2 (49:57):
Put some money in their investment account that we
have.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Yeah, yeah, one thing we've done that's actually been
really good we don't do thisevery year, but we have it was
Fiverr parties.
But inflation you could dotender parties is where on the
invitation we said you know yourpresence is the greatest
present, but if you want tobring a present, then just bring
a five or a $10 bill and a cardand that way that saves your
playroom from all the junk thatyou know is going to buy or
(50:22):
break in like a week that peoplebuy and they can save up and
buy something that's reallyimportant to them.
Um, so that's one thing we'vedone that's been really helpful.
On the party I love that.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
I suggested that this year for Roman cause.
He turned five and I was like,oh, he's turning five, $5 bill,
it's perfect.
And Brandon was like I thinkhe's still very much in the
phase of like I want to open apresent.
And so I asked, I asked him,would you rather have presents
or would you rather have people?
Because we know, we know ourcircle there, nobody wants to
show up empty handed, right.
And so I said, or would yourather everybody bring $5 and
(50:57):
you get to pick, you go to thestore, you can put some in your
piggy bank, but then you get toactually buy something that
you're really excited about.
And he was like I want thepresents, but next year we're
definitely going to go with the,with the Fiverr or the gift
card or you know.
However, people want to do thatwith a few dollars, because I
do think it.
It also gives them anopportunity to you know what
(51:18):
they enjoy because they weregifted.
It is very different than whatthey would prioritize if they
were spending their own money,and so I think those lessons are
really valuable as well as theyget older.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
So awesome, absolutely, and it's kind of a
gift that gives twice is becauseyou open it up and you're like,
oh, hey, money, and then youget to go to the store and then
pick, then you get to open it.
Speaker 3 (51:42):
No, I love that.
I think that's a great idea anda great call out, and the last
two birthdays he's had just at alocal park it's been great.
They spend a couple hoursrunning around.
We did rent the shelter butit's so much cheaper than you
know.
These three, four or $500birthday parties where you're
renting the jump place or theblow up place or the you know.
(52:03):
I mean it's all.
Just life is so expensive.
So I think grounding ourselvesback in, like the time together
is really what's special, andthe kids are not going to
remember what you bought themfor their fifth birthday.
I think those things like thatand being really intentional
again with where you spend yourtime and energy and money is
really what you have to do inorder to build that meaningful
(52:25):
life for yourself and yourfamily.
Speaker 1 (52:28):
Absolutely.
One litmus test that I kind ofdo is I like fast forward a few
years and, like you said,they're not going to remember
next year what they got for thisyear's birthday and kind of
going back to likeextracurriculars okay, is my kid
going to be happy that they didthis at like 25 or 30?
They may not care about, youknow, joining the tennis team.
They may not care about karate,you know.
(52:51):
They may still play aninstrument you know or you can.
You can't always know ahead oftime what you're what's going to
click with your kids, but youknow there's a lot of those
things that you know if theywon't care down the road.
Is it really, should it reallybe a financial priority now?
Speaker 3 (53:08):
Yeah, that's a great way to think about it.
Well, Jenny, thank you so muchfor being with us today.
We're so excited about thisconversation and sharing it with
our audience.
Where can our audience find you, your work, your?
Speaker 1 (53:21):
podcast.
I'm on mamasmoneymapcom and theMama's Money Map podcast is
wherever you listen to podcasts,except YouTube.
We're still getting YouTube upand running, perfect, but it's
M-A-M-A-S.
There's like four ways to spellmama and I had to just pick one
.
So, there's more domains I needto buy, but yeah, mama's Money
(53:42):
Map Instagram, mostly onInstagram and the podcast.
Speaker 3 (53:47):
Perfect.
We will make sure to link thatin our show notes so that
everybody can connect with youand learn from your podcast as
well.
So thank you so much for beingwith us today.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
Thanks for having me.
This has been an awesomeconversation.
Speaker 2 (53:59):
Yay.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
Don't forget.
Benjamin Franklin said aninvestment in knowledge pays the
best interest.
You just got paid Until nexttime.
Thanks for listening to today'sepisode.
We are so glad to have you aspart of our Sugar Daddy
(54:22):
community.
If you you learned somethingtoday, please remember to
subscribe, rate, review andshare this episode with your
friends, family and extendednetwork.
Don't forget to connect with uson social media at the sugar
daddy podcast.
You can also email us yourquestions you want us to answer
for our past the sugar segmentsat the sugar daddy podcast at
(54:43):
gmailcom, or leave us avoicemail through our Instagram.
Speaker 2 (54:47):
Our content is intended to be used, and must be
used, for informationalpurposes only.
It is very important to do yourown analysis before making any
investment based upon your ownpersonal circumstances.
You should take independentfinancial advice from a licensed
professional in connection withor independently research and
verify any information you findin our podcast and wish to rely
upon, whether for the purpose ofmaking an investment decision
or
And for me, I love my kids.
They're a wonderful part of mylife, they're maybe an essential
part of my life, but workingfills a bucket that the kids
don't fill for me, and I'vetalked to a lot of stay-at-home
moms that feel the same, and Ithink that's why you see so many
stay-at-home moms with a sidehustle or working from home or
doing these things, things,because you know the like.
(00:22):
Staying at home with your kids,it's that cultivating that
relationship, but it also likeit's.
That's the mom side of me, notthe Jenny side of me.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Hey babe, what are we talking about?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
money flow.
Hey, babe, what are we talkingabout Today?
We are talking aboutstay-at-home moms leveling up
their personal finance, and it'sso important because there's so
many things that stay-at-homemoms can do to ensure that they
are also building and growingwealth, and I think that is
something that we have nottalked about in the past.
And it's such an importanttopic because there's so many
stay at home moms or moms thatare transitioning from the
(01:09):
workforce to be at home morewith their children because of
this crazy world that we live in, and we know that the time we
spend with our children is soprecious and so fleeting.
And so we want to talk abouthow to grow wealth, build wealth
and be fiscally responsible asa stay-at-home mom.
And we've got the perfectperson to do that A mom of five,
(01:30):
jenny Sisson, is with us today,and we're so glad to have you.
Thanks for having me.
We're excited.
Let's get into your bio, jenny,because and I don't want to say
you're just a stay-at-home mom,because there's no such thing
as just a stay-at-home mom Don'tever let that phrase come out
of your mouth, right?
But you do work.
And so we're going to get intoyour bio and into your
(01:52):
background, and I'm excited forthis conversation.
Jenny Sisson is a personalfinance writer.
She's been published inBusiness Insider, newsweek,
marketwatch, finance Buzz andFox Money.
In addition to writing, jennyhosts the Mama's Money Map
podcast to help fellowstay-at-home moms on their
journey to financial freedom.
She is also a wife and mom tofour bio kids and one foster kid
(02:15):
.
She has lived in eight USstates and Russia.
We're going to need to talkabout that Russia part.
When she's not writing orpodcasting about personal
finance, she's hiking along theWasatch Front, baking something
with chocolate in it or beatingsomeone at Scrabble.
Thank you, jenny, for beingwith us today.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Thanks so much for inviting me.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
All right.
We start all of our episodeswith a guest talking about your
first money memory.
So let's dive in to that.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Let's dive in to that .
My first money memory is when Iwas how old was I?
I must have been about eightyears old and I was shopping
with my mom at Target and Iremember there was some shirt or
dress or something I wanted andshe said, oh, let's wait until
that goes on sale.
And little me, I was like, oh,okay, that's cool.
(03:03):
Like you know, like I want itnow, now, but okay, I'll get it
eventually.
You know so.
And now, as a parent, I'm sureshe was like putting me off of
something I wouldn't care aboutin five minutes, um, but I also
think that it was her way ofseeing like, okay, it's too
expensive right now, but if theprice comes down we might pull
the trigger, and just kind ofbeing mindful about how much
(03:25):
we're spending, and especiallyon things that aren't essential,
so kind of mindfully choosingwhen to spend money.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Yeah, we've been talking to our kids about that a
lot the difference betweenneeds and wants and pushing back
when they think something is aneed and you know it's obviously
a want, but they're starting tocatch on and it's it's been
good discussion and, uh, we didit last year too, when we, you
know, since we're coming up onthe holiday season we adopted,
(03:54):
um, you know, some children tobuy gifts for, and we talked to
them about the list.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
yeah, the the Salvation Army Angels.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Yeah, through the Salvation Army.
Yes, we did not adopt children.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
We're just for the holidays.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
But we, you know, we adopted a few children through
the Salvation Army Angelsprogram, and so we purposefully
got children that were the sameage as our children and we were
going through the list of theirsize, clothing, and they needed
socks and underwear and actualtrue essentials.
And then, of course, they had along list of toys.
And so we said, if we have thismuch money to spend on each
(04:34):
child, what do you think weshould buy first?
And our daughter, who's theolder one, did a really good job
of saying well, it's nice tohave a doll, but it's really
important to have underwear,like yes, that is absolutely
correct, mesler's hierarchy ofneeds, exactly, and so just kind
(04:54):
of incorporating those thingsinto our daily conversations, or
we don't want our kids to havea scarcity mindset, so reframing
, like what your mom said ofwell, let's wait until it goes
on sale, right, which sometimeswe'll just say we'll see, we'll
talk about it later and that'sabsolutely us being like no,
we're just, this is done, butwe'll talk about it later.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
We'll see it was not a no, but in my mind it already
is kind of probably a no.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
It's a no, yeah, no, I was just going to say or we
were not prioritizing t-shirtsright now, right, and just
changing the way we talk aboutis it a yes or is it a no.
I think is really important andsomething that I've been trying
to be more mindful about.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Yeah, and sometimes it's helpful to have that delay
because it kind of sifts out forthe kids what is their real
priority.
Because if, like I've beendreaming of a drum set, I've got
a daughter that wants to playthe drums and I'm like, okay, is
this like flavor of the week,or does she actually legit want
to play the drums?
And it's, it stood the test oftime, you know not just, rather
than being a fleeting like, oh Ijust saw some cool YouTube
(05:57):
video and now I want to do thisversus yeah, no this is really a
passion of mine.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Right, yeah, well, because their minds just run a
mile a minute and what'simportant right now is not
important at all an hour fromnow, and so mitigating that and
you want to foster their trueinterest.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
but you want to make sure it's their true interest
before you put a big financialbacking behind it.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Correct.
And also this will be yourinterest for the next six weeks
because we signed you up, thankyou, and then you can undo that
interest, but it is paid for.
So it will be your interest forthe next six weeks because we
signed you up, thank you, andthen you can undo that interest,
but it is paid for.
So it will be your interest forthe next six weeks.
Yeah, talk to us about yourpersonal finance journey and how
you got to writing for thesenational publications about
(06:39):
money and wanting to help otherstay athome moms be better with
their money and work towardstheir financial freedom goals.
Have you been listening to ourpodcast and wondering how am I
really doing with my money?
Am I doing the right thingswith my investments?
Am I on track to reach myfinancial goals?
(07:01):
What could I be doing better?
If you answered yes to any ofthese questions, then it's time
for you to reach my financialgoals.
What could I be doing better?
If you answered yes to any ofthese questions, then it's time
for you to reach out to Brandonto schedule your free yes, I
said free 30-minute introductionconversation to see how his
services could help make you themore confident moneymaker we
know you could be.
What are you waiting for?
It's literally free and at thevery least, you'll walk away
(07:24):
feeling more empowered andconfident about your financial
future.
Link is in our show notes.
Go, schedule your call today.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
It's kind of difficult to know where to start
that conversation because itgoes way back, so I'll try to
TLDR it.
I majored in linguistics, whichsounds it's fascinating field.
It's not the most useful fieldin the world and so but I kind
of always knew that I wanted tostay home with my kids.
And that was I saw my mom do.
She never really had a job, shejust stayed home with us and,
(07:58):
and so that was kind of my plan.
And so I got married about thesame time as I graduated college
and then shortly thereafter ourson was born and so I stayed
home while working part time alittle bit here and there.
And it kind of came to the pointwhere I knew our youngest was
going to be going back to schooland I'm like I don't want to do
the same things that I wantedto do with my degree back then.
(08:23):
And so I kind of had thismidlife crisis of, okay, now I'm
30 something, what do I want tobe when I grow up?
And I kind of took it like,okay, I need to figure out what
can I make money doing, what amI good at?
And like, what's there a demandfor and what will allow me to
still have the flexibility to beat home with my kids, because I
still definitely wanted to bethere for them, like when they
(08:46):
get home from school and thingslike that, and so, and at the
time, I had this night jobworking in a local hotel, which
was awful.
I hated it.
And so, in a bid to just getany port in a storm, I had heard
of freelance writing.
I'm like, well, I love personalfinance.
I'd gone down the Dave Ramseyrabbit hole years before and
then had, you know, come in tunewith like the fire movement and
(09:07):
things too, after that and Iwas like, well, I love personal
finance and I'm reading allthese articles, so somebody must
be getting paid to write them.
So I got, I hopped on Upwork,which is a freelance website
it's kind of like Craigslist forfreelance writing and other
freelance things and just kindof started there and grew it
(09:28):
from getting paid like fivecents a word and then just
gradually working up and up andgetting more experience in my
niche of personal finance andstarted reaching out to people
on LinkedIn, got a lot ofconnections through FinCon, the
conference we go to, and fromthere I started getting bylines
in major publications.
It took a while, but that's howI built my career from scratch
(09:52):
and from my living room.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
I love that.
I think too.
I mean I work in my homebecause I work remote, but quote
unquote outside of the home.
But what you said about beinghome when your kids are home,
it's just something.
You know.
Our kids are home by three.
Clearly, my workday does not endat three, as much as there are
days that I would like for it to, but I'm here and I can
schedule myself in a way where,when they come home, for the
(10:17):
most part I can give them bighugs, I can make them a snack, I
can help prep dinner, you know,and I'm here every night when
they're here for dinner, right,and so I do think what you were
saying.
I knew that I wanted to be homefor my kids.
Now that we're able to beremote and work in this new way,
(10:38):
it does offer so many morepossibilities of structuring
your life more the way you wantto, which I think is important.
Like if somebody asked me todrive, you know, round trip two
hours into work every day, it'sa non-starter for me.
Like it's not, because I mean Isee my kids in the morning for
less than an hour and then whenthey get home, until the time
(11:00):
they go to bed for a few hoursand I don't want to impede on
that time together.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
I also think it's very interesting how, from a
study standpoint, we know howimportant it is to spend,
especially those early yearswith your kids as much time as
possible, but the US workforceis not structured around doing
that.
And it's just so odd to mebecause we know the benefits
long-term of that leads to abetter person that's going on to
(11:27):
society, but we put so manyhurdles in place to not make it
easy for families to do that.
It's just mind baffling to me.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, and I think in these days I feel like, with the
economy the way it is, it'sgetting even harder to just rely
on one person's income tosustain a family, even if you
only have one or two kids, andit's nearly impossible when you
get and that was another reasonfor, um, you know, building my
careers so that we have fewerfail points Cause if my husband
(11:56):
were to get laid off and that'shappened before, you know like
then we're a hundred percent outof income, whereas if you're,
if you have two incomes, there'sless risk.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
Like you know, there's.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
There's perks and drawbacks to both, but it's it's
really hard.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
And also also even depends on, like, for example,
what your your career is priorto maybe becoming a stay-at-home
mom, if you do have one.
I mean, we have friends whohave had four kids, and the mom
was a elementary school teacherand I was, like you know, having
this many kids with how muchwe're going to pay for daycare.
I'm just trading my you knowteaching salary for straight to
daycare.
I might as well stay at homeand spend the time, and you know
(12:33):
that I would like to spend mykids, so you have to factor all
that stuff in as well.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Yeah, yeah, and that's.
That's a lot of the kind of thedeal breaker for a lot of moms
and a lot of families, I think,is like it literally does not
make financial sense for me towork and it.
But then you also have tofactor in like, okay, staying in
my field, staying credentialed,staying up on the technology
depending on what field you'rein there's opportunity costs
(12:58):
there and I kind of I went intobeing a stay at home mom, not
realizing some of thoseopportunity costs.
It worked, it worked out for me.
But I really wish if I could goback and tell my younger self,
like these are things you needto think about.
Is like stay-at-home mom, it's,it's not a career choice, it's
a lifestyle choice, but it's nota career.
And then, um, and I wish Iwould have kind of gone into
(13:22):
that thinking a little harderabout like, okay, this is my
choice for this time in my lifeand I don't regret that choice.
It was definitely the best formy family.
But I really wish I would haveseen more of the long game.
Like, okay, that works now,when you're, you know, 28.
When you're 35, what do youwant to do when you're 47, 52,
60?
Like, what do you still justwant to be at home?
(13:43):
60?
Like what?
Do you still just want to be athome, or is there something
else more fulfilling that youwant to do once your kids are
grown and flown?
Speaker 2 (13:50):
And it was hard for you, Like there wasn't, that
wasn't modeled in the sense ofbeing able to know, to have
those thoughts and conversationsprior to you know, being a stay
at home mom.
That information wasn'tavailable, that wasn't.
People weren't even thinkingabout that.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
So it makes it hard to have that Well and also yeah,
absolutely.
And also like back in like myparents' generation, like it was
totally possible for my familyto rely on my dad's income.
So financially that wasn'treally a consideration and my
mom wasn't.
My mom also wasn't chomping atthe bit to go get a job.
She was very fulfilled withbeing a mother.
Like that was very fulfillingto her and for me.
(14:25):
I love my kids.
They're a wonderful part of mylife.
Kids, they're a wonderful partof my life.
They're maybe an essential partof my life.
But working fills a bucket thatthe kids don't fill for me, and
I've talked to a lot ofstay-at-home moms that feel the
same and I think that's why yousee so many stay-at-home moms
with a side hustle or workingfrom home or doing these things,
because you know the like.
(14:48):
Staying at home with your kids,it's that cultivating that
relationship.
But it also like it's that'sthe mom's side of me, not the
Jenny side of me.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
So I would also say, like, obviously this is not your
situation, but and you know toomany situations you do have,
like in the United States,almost a 50% divorce rate.
So if you, as a woman, chooseto be a stay at home mom, and
then you have that gap in yourresume, you haven't been
building up, you know savingspecifically for yourself, and
then you know your kids aregetting ready to, you know, go
(15:19):
back to school or whatever itmay be, and now you're
separating from your spouse.
You're like, what do I do?
And I've heard of way too manysituations where that's that's,
that's how the woman ends up andit's not a good situation.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah, and doing kind of some research for my own
podcast, I'm like, okay, well,what?
What other stay at home moms?
I know my experience.
But what other stay at momsexperience?
And I joined several FacebookFacebook groups and I saw that
month after month after month,I've been a stay at home mom for
10, 15 years and now my husbandcheated on me or we're getting
divorced.
(15:54):
Now what do I do?
And you have to start fromscratch.
And one of the other thingsthat kind of got me thinking
about a career is I had a friendin high school.
He and I knew each other sincethe sixth grade.
He took me on my first date andhe got married to another dear
friend right out of high school,which is like mind blowing.
When you're 18 and you're,you're going to your best
(16:16):
friend's wedding, um.
But he was killed in amotorcycle accident when we were
27 and left behind a wife who I, who was also a dear friend,
and their three kids and um, andthe month after I got back from
his funeral I got into a badcar wreck too and luckily I
walked away from it and harmed.
But it was a real wake up callLike this could happen to me.
Like kind of when you're inyour twenties you have this
(16:38):
vague idea of like oh yeah,death happens, but you don't
think it's going to happen toyou, and realizing what happens
if my spouse dies, like that isa hundred percent possible and I
have no way to provide for mykids.
And you know, I still need tobe at home with them.
They're still tinies.
But I need to get a plan inplace beyond just life insurance
(17:01):
, to figure out to how toprovide for my family if the
worst would happen death,disability, divorce what have
you?
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Yeah, I thought we had Aaron Thomas on Family Law
Attorney and he focuses onprenups and we were talking in
our episode about if you do have, for example, a stay at home
mom, if you have a prenup inplace, you could put in the
protections into the prenup thatsays you know X amount of the
(17:30):
income every month is going togo into this type of an account
to build your retirement as well.
Not just you know the husband,if it's a, you know,
heteronormative relationship,the husband putting away for
retirement is 401k and IRA etc.
Like putting actual retirementaccounts in place for the stay
at home mom on top of disabilityinsurance and life insurance
(17:54):
and having those protections inplace.
Because, just from a basicstandpoint, if you're a
stay-at-home mom, you are thechauffeur, you're the cook,
you're the person who does thelaundry, you're the housekeeper,
you're the tutor, you're doingall those things 24-7.
24-7.
If you are in that car accidentthat you were just describing
and the outcome would have beenunfavorable, what would your
(18:15):
partner have done in that timewith the children?
Would they have to take off ofwork, which then again impacts
the family income?
I mean, there's so manysnowball scenarios that can
happen in an instant and if youdon't have those protections in
place for both of the people inthe relationship, it can be
(18:35):
really detrimental if somethingwere to happen.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
I think, unfortunately, the conversation
that is starting to be had thatshould have been had for a long
time is the monetary value thatstay-at-home moms actually have,
even though they're not beingpaid for their work.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Unpaid labor.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
And you can put a monetary value to it.
You know, when I've I've workedwith clients that have, you
know, a stay at home the wife isa stay at home mom and I was
like you could put a dollaramount on all the things I said
you could put.
I should say this you could putan approximate dollar amount
because we're let's be honest-you're not going to be able to
(19:15):
put a dollar amount that youcould put on the work they
really do Priceless, but isn'tit like, on average, like
$180,000 a year if you breakdown all the roles?
It's something ridiculousbecause it's a 24-7, nonstop job
that you're doing husband tomaximize his potential in his
career, because some of thethings that he can take on and
(19:35):
do he wouldn't be able to do ifhe didn't have a supportive wife
that could handle everythingelse at home.
Right, I think that's aconversation that has been
missed and is desperately needed, and I'm glad that you know
it's starting to be talked about.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Me too, and just for all the reasons you touched on,
we have life insurance for me aswell, because, you're right,
like you kind of take forgranted that someone is on call
24 7, for in case it's a sickday, in case there's a half day
don't get me started with ohyeah half days at school but
random teacher work days or justthere's there and I feel like
(20:12):
no week in my house is normal,because there's always a half
day, or someone's sick, orsomeone has a field trip or a
project or has to be somewhereto do something like an
appointment, like there's alwayssomething going on, and and to
have someone there 24 7,available to field whatever
comes, like you say, that's nighinto priceless.
(20:35):
You could not pay someone elseto do that.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Yeah, no, talk to us about Mama's Money Map and where
that idea came from and whatyou're working on helping
stay-at-home moms with and howyou're doing that.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah, it kind of the idea, for it was born when I was
driving my kids to school andwe lived in a rural area, so the
drive was long, so I listenedto a lot of podcasts and, like I
said, I'd kind of fallen downthe personal finance route hole.
And I was listening to thispodcast and I won't tell you
which one it is.
It's a very large one and Ihave fierce respect for this
podcaster, so I won't say whatit is.
But she was talking about how,uh, like a productivity hacks
(21:14):
and things, and one of thethings that she suggested was um
, you can sleep one less hour atnight.
I'm like, are you kidding me?
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Like I feel like I know who this podcast was.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Yes, it was someone without kids and, honestly, for
someone without kids, they'reliving a totally different life,
with different needs, and youknow if you're you know
different luxuries sleep inAbsolutely, and so that would
have made sense for them, but itdid not make sense for me.
And then I realized, like thisperson isn't talking to me for
my situation, I think even ifthat person was right next to me
(21:51):
and saw my life as a fly on thewall, they would realize oh
that, yeah, maybe that's not agood fit for you.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
But I also didn't feel like there was anyone
talking to stay at home moms,with some of the limitations
that they have and some of thelike, even the psychological
elements of I'm not making anymoney and I sort of feel guilty
about that and I want tocontribute that all my labor is
unpaid and I get, you know, paidin sticky kisses.
It's it there are differenthurdles to clear and I wanted to
(22:19):
talk specifically to some ofthose families that had some of
those same you know issues,challenges.
To have some someone else thathad been through the same thing
talk to them.
I was like, oh, I could do that.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
So that's kind of what Mama's Money Map is
designed to be, I think tellingpeople just wake up at 3 am to
have your hour of coffee andyour meditation time
uninterrupted.
Even if I did that at 3 am, itwould still be interrupted.
At 3am it would still beinterrupted, I guarantee you,
(22:54):
because our son still comes inand interrupts our sleep on a
regular, very regular basis.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
And I love that you, you know, have that revelation
and you're like I can createsomething that speaks to the
women that are going through thesame things that I'm going
through.
Because even as a dad like Itry to be as present as possible
.
That's exactly, you know, thetype of dad that I want to be.
The reality is is that, like Ithink, as a dad, unless, like
you, are a single dad and you'retaking care of your kids by
(23:19):
yourself, the extra stuff'salways going to fall to the mom,
like that's just as much as youwant to try and be, you know,
50, 50, it's just not.
And I realized that, as much asI would like it to be, the
things do fall to her.
So, like I can't evenunderstand from that standpoint,
because I'm not having thatexperience.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Right, that's the mental load that they talked
about.
There has to be a logisticscoordinator, someone that knows
all the appointments and thebirthdays and the insurance
details and you know and on andon, all these little details and
, like you say, it's it's hardto quantify that and it's hard
to explain that and it's alsohard to delegate that.
Like I'm lucky that I have areally supportive husband and he
(24:02):
supported me through thestay-at-home mom years and now
Trish transitioning to moreequitable with he and I are both
working and he's always askinglike what can I do to take off
your plate?
But I'm still logisticscoordinator, I'm still the one
that knows the things that needto be done.
So and there's a burden thatcomes with that.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Yeah, we have an exciting episode.
By the time this comes out,that one will have come out with
Eve Rodsky on making your homemore equitable.
So shout out to Eve and fairplay.
If you haven't read it,definitely give that a read.
And that's exactly what thatconversation is about is making
the invisible visible and allthe things that go into daily
(24:47):
life as a parent and as a parentof multiple children that all
have different needs, differentthings happening in their
classrooms, withextracurriculars.
They need to be in differentplaces at different times.
Oh, we got to get this birthdayparty gift for this birthday,
and I mean, it's just, it isliterally nonstop.
Oh, and now they have to wearan orange polka dotted shirt on
Tuesday for Dalmatian day.
(25:08):
You know what?
No, no, it makes me want tojust like rip all my hair out
when I get the calendars thatare like yeah wear this on
spirit day Like.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
I want to touch on that.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Nobody, nobody.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
I want to touch on the one thing that I just heard
you say about, you know, thefeeling of guilt, because all
the work that you do isn'tnecessarily quantifiable from a
dollar standpoint, as you know,going into your pocket.
That's always interesting to mebecause I guess it's a little
bit different how I grew up,like I grew up, my mom raised my
brother and I by herself, andso she had to play both roles by
(25:49):
herself and so she had to playboth roles.
But it's also very interestingwhere, like I've seen that
interaction, where you know youhave to stay at home, mom, and,
like you said, there is someguilt because you're, like, I'm
not bringing in money to helpsupport the family when, like,
you are literally supporting thefamily, you know, and the
dynamic that can could be apositive or it could be a
(26:09):
negative dynamic in regards towhen discussing money, when
you're not quote unquotebringing in money like how to
divide it, how like making yourhousehold rules?
yeah, like what conversationsyou have, because I'm gonna go
on the opposite of the negativestandpoint.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
We I have no scenarios where you know, we
know people who, the mom hasbeen stay at home and the
husband is the one working andthe husband makes large
financial decisions withouthaving a conversation buying a
car like I'm gonna go buy amercedes or I'm gonna go buy a
bmw car without having aconversation with my wife about
it, and I think, almost theyfeel like they can make that
(26:43):
decision because they quoteunquote bring in the money yeah,
yeah, do you talk to, oh, toyour uh, mama's money map folks
about things like that and howto make sure that those
financial goals and rules are inalignment and in place?
Or?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
well, it's still a pretty new podcast, so that
hasn't come up yet, but that is,oh my gosh, that's a
gut-wrenching.
I hate those car commercialsthat glorify honey about you a
car that's my husband knows likehe would not come.
He, he would not ever come homewith a new car.
No, no.
But I think if you do choose tobe a stay-at-home parent and I
(27:24):
know personal finance ispersonal and everyone has to do
what works best for their family, you know, has to do what works
best for their family but Ican't see a case for not
completely pooling all financialmeans into one pot in a family
that has a stay at home parent,because, like you said, every
bit of that parent's work isuncompensated financially and so
(27:47):
it's it's insane to me thatanyone would feel entitled I
mean kind of go back to brandonwhat you're saying like the
supporting the family, thestay-at-home mom is kind of the
legs the family stands on insome regards and so doing, going
and making financial decisions,it's kind of like cutting your
legs out from under you and in away, um, I think, and even if
(28:10):
you have a family where thehusband and wife are both
working or the spouses are bothworking and both bringing in an
even-ish income, all of thosebig financial decisions should
still go through both partiesbecause they affect both parties
.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Yeah, totally agree.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
I almost view it as disrespectful like no, it is, it
is disrespectful.
Like you don't.
It seems as though, like youdon't value your spouse as a
true partner right and that'sthe part that, like, would rub
me the wrong way because, youknow, just makes more than I do.
And even if roles were reversed, like, our decisions for large
(28:52):
purchases are always madetogether because we are working
as a team.
And that's always, you know,baffling to me when people don't
have those conversations,because then you're not truly
working as a team.
And if you're not working as ateam, I find it very hard to
believe that you're going toaccomplish any great goals that
you guys have.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
you know, from a financial standpoint accomplish
any great goals that you guyshave.
You know, from a financialstandpoint, yeah, and having a
supportive working spouse, Ifeel like, is critical to making
the stay at home decision evenpossible, because otherwise it
opens the door to, like you said, some of those financial
decisions that run the gamut ofdisrespect to full.
On financial abuse, yeah, wedefinitely.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
I think that's why it's important for absolutely.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
It's important for state home moms to even think
about things like credit scoreand, like you said, retirement
savings and things like that,because just because you're not
working doesn't mean you don'tneed access to money or to
become familiar with money.
The nice thing that I'm findingis, in most cases that I know
of and I don't have you knowstatistics to back this up, but
(29:53):
just my anecdotal experiencemost of the time the stay at
home mom is the one managing themoney, even if she's not making
it.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Yeah, that's the experience for my mom.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
I would say that's also historically, like you know
, even going back to, like youknow, our parents.
You know, uh, our parents'parents in the 50s, 60s, 70s.
The husband is the one working,but who's actually managing the
home and the finances?
The wife.
So this isn't something new.
It's just that it wasn't spokenabout openly.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Right, it was just understood back then.
I think as a general.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
I want to touch on two things, Jenny.
The first is for anybodylistening that is a stay at home
mom or maybe is looking totransition into being a stay at
home mom Are there a fewfundamental strategies or tips
that you would give them of whatkind of things to be aware of,
to look for, to ask for, to makesure that they have in place?
(30:51):
And then part two is when wespoke previously, you have five
children right and on a lessthan high income, and so
(31:13):
managing a large family on alower income.
Would love to hear how you'redoing that, because life is so
expensive too.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Yeah, and it's evolved over time.
So back to your first question.
Remind me what it was.
I'm sorry, I was waiting forthat.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
I was like that was a long question.
I know I'm sorry that was on me, that was on me.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
I got excited.
I got excited.
What kind of things should stayat home?
Moms that are either alreadystay at home moms or looking to
become stay at home moms have inplace as protections to make
sure that things are moreequitable in their home.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
I think really open, honest communication with your
spouse is at the core and Ithink, almost overly
communicating what's happeningwith the finances, what your
plans are for the future, likeI'm only going to stay home
until you know little Susie's inpreschool and then I'm going
(32:03):
back to work, or I want to havethis many kids so I'll be out of
the workforce for this long, orthen we'll switch, like some
families switch, and have thedad stay at home after a while
if they both have careers goinginto it and it's we use this
broad term, stay at home mom orstay at home parent when really
it's really blurry exactly whatthat means.
(32:26):
I think a generation ago itwould have been different and
maybe it's just that you take asacrifice and get a work at home
job that's either part-time orthat is a lesser pay so you can
be at home with the kids, likeit just it's.
It takes so many differentforms and I think the one core
that will on both parents, boththe working spouse and the
(32:49):
stay-at-home spouse, change andevolve over time and so keeping
(33:14):
in touch with your partner aboutwhat you need and being very
honest about what you need andif you're getting burnt out and
if you're feeling unfulfilled,or if maybe your partner wants
to change your career and whatthat means for you, staying at
home, like just constantlycommunicating that with your
spouse, to figure out a planthat works for you both.
I also think, looking to thefuture, like do you want to just
(33:38):
not work for the rest of yourlife?
People don't.
There are some people that youknow mothering fills that bucket
and then that's and I'mobviously speaking to
heteronormative relationshipsbut like that fills your bucket
and you don't need anything else.
But I think that's theexception rather than the rule.
So, just looking for a plan forthe future, even if that's five
, 10 years down the road, likemy plan for freelance writing to
(34:01):
grow it was a five-year planand it did take about five years
to get to the point where I'mlike, oh, this could be a
full-time thing.
It's not because I'm still,because half days are still a
thing, but just looking a littlefurther down the road and
realizing that the life evolvesand changes and what.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
I hear is a similarity to how financial
planning should be done.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
Communication and planning and timelines right and
your goals.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
And realizing that things evolve and change and,
like you said, it's not just theidea of a plan, it's the
constant practice of planning asthings change.
No-transcript, two days out ofthe week.
(35:17):
I was having her at homeinitially and as an infant I was
like, oh you know, I can getsome work done and whatnot.
And I quickly realized that isnot.
It's not going to be productive, like you think you're going to
get something done and then Ihave to do something with her.
He's like I wrote one email andthen like you know you get
thrown off, Then it takes you awhile to get back in the swing
(35:37):
and then something else happens.
So like I definitely was not astay at home, you know, parent
by any means to the full extent,but like I got a glimpse at it
and I was like this is tough.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
And also babies.
Don't just sleep all day.
So I think that's themisconception of like oh, you
can get so much done, why isn'tthis huge pile of laundry done?
The baby just slept all day andit's like oh.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
I don't know why, I don't know how I forgot about
that, like I hadn't even thoughtabout that.
You probably tucked it away hadsome ptsd from it.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
We forget a lot.
Well, and the hard part too isas a mom.
The kids chop up your day.
So bad like someone needs aband-aid, someone gets hungry.
You know someone had anaccident, so you know like it's
if it's not one thing, it'sanother.
And that that choppiness makesit, you know, erodes your
productivity, no matter ifyou're folding laundry or
(36:26):
checking emails, it doesn'tmatter.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
Yeah, exactly, talk to us about how you're.
I mean, you're a family ofseven and you're making it work.
We have two and I'm like howdoes anybody with more than two
feed their kids, buy berries fortheir kids, put them in
activities Like I don'tunderstand?
Help us make it make sense,jenny.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
So I should add, like , like we said, life grows and
life changes.
And so I have four bio kids andmy father he's not an official
foster, he was, he just kind ofcame to live with us
unofficially.
Long story, I'll save it,that's another part.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
Okay, another part two.
Oh my God, wait, how old is he?
Can we know how old he is?
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Well, he's 18 now, so luckily, so actually I didn't
really talk about him beforejust cause his yeah, I was
worried about bio parents andstuff like that on the internet,
so, but he's 18, so he's anadult, so he's actually moved
out now and he's got his job andis thriving in his new, his new
job and new place.
So, um, but before, we had fourkids for most of my mothering
(37:32):
experience, and my husband is awildlife biologist, which took
us to a lot of remote areas,because that's where the
wildlife are, is where thehumans aren't, and so we have
lived all over the place.
Yeah, well, some, some of them,them.
West Texas is not a beautifulplace, but we've lived in
(37:53):
Nebraska and South Dakota andMontana and, um, upstate New
York, um, so all these differentplaces you know, each one is
its own story, but, um, again,whole nother podcast.
So, but all of them have onething in common and that's that
the cost of living is very lowin most of the places we've
(38:14):
lived.
Um, we're actually fortunateenough in West Texas to have our
housing subsidized as part ofmy husband's job, and that was
huge.
Um, and I know a lot of peoplehouse hack or there's, and it's.
It's interesting that in thatpart of the world I think partly
because it's not the prettiestpart of the world there's a lot
more jobs than I realized thathad housing as a benefit, um,
(38:37):
like uh, cowboys, ranchers andeven the teachers out there had
housing um, in some of theserural towns in some of these
rural towns.
So that was a big thing and justthe lower cost of living.
And with that lower cost ofliving there wasn't this
(38:59):
expectation that your kids didevery activity or was doing club
sports.
They're playing in the woodsand playing with each other and
things like that.
So, um, there wasn't as muchpressure to have like the nicest
clothes and things like thatfor the kids, and I think that
was really liberating and Ithink I it was something I took
for granted at the time, but itreally helped us spend money on
(39:20):
what was important and get bywith a lot less.
I also side hustled for thelike.
Basically my husband took careof like the needs and my my side
hustles usually took care ofthe wants.
So that worked out pretty wellyeah.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
That is so interesting because, like you
mentioned some things like Iwould have, I didn't even think
about like the pressure that's,you know, we see like cause of
like where we live and stufflike that of your kids to do all
these activities because allthese other kids are doing these
activities.
I never even like reallythought about that standpoint.
And then also, our daughter,for like a year, was in a
(39:56):
private school and as a kid likeI was always a public school
kid and I was like you know, Iwas like how can you wear
uniforms as an adult?
Speaker 3 (40:02):
uniforms are amazing, the best because you don't have
to worry about buying all theseextra clothes yeah, light, blue
or dark blue and the nice thickone right and our daughter's
school.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
She goes to one daughter that goes to a charter
school and they have a closetactually.
So when you grow out of yourclothes, you just put them back
in the school closet.
And the first thing we did whenwe signed them up is you know,
here, come to the closet andpick khakis and polos or
whatever that fit, because youdon't have to worry about if
they're cool or not, you justhave to worry about if they fit.
It's the same thing everybody'swearing.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
It's so great.
I mean she didn't like it.
It took, I mean, two to threeweeks for her to wrap her head
around.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
She's our creative.
She's our creative.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
She's the creative, she wants to be a fashion
designer, our fashionista.
So for her to have very limitedoptions was not good for her.
It was great for us because themornings are like, very like,
pick out your clothes the nightbefore and even then she wants
to change them.
But I also I feel like theclothes that we did buy for her
(41:02):
lasted longer because she waswearing a uniform all day,
because, like yesterday, shecame home and there was a hole
in her pants, right.
So I felt I felt like thethings that we were purchasing
and spending our money onactually lasted longer because
of the school uniforms.
But I mean, I guess it allcomes out in the wash.
But the call out of some ofthese rural places offering
housing as part of thecompensation package, I mean
(41:24):
that's an excellent thing forsomebody to look into.
That I wasn't aware of thatwould exist.
So I mean, if you can have yourhousing subsidized, that's a
huge chunk, usually the biggestpart of your fixed cost, yeah,
so, yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Yeah, and it actually allowed us to buy a couple of
rentals in that area of theworld, and because the housing
is so cheap, it is a very lowbarrier to entry in real estate,
which is nice as well.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
So are you technically part of the fire
movement, Jenny?
Speaker 1 (41:57):
I mean, I flirted with it for a while.
We made some family decisions.
We we now live in utah, whichis I don't know if you look at
the real estate market, but it'sinsane here, like the cost of
living isn't that badholistically speaking, it's just
the real estate that's reallyrough.
(42:18):
So anyhow, yeah, real estatehere is insane and that's part
of why I'm working more and.
But we came here to be nearfamily.
My dad has Parkinson's and mymom has cancer.
So it was kind of a mindfulchoice to to.
You know, and you can't, it'shard to put a price on that time
(42:39):
, just kind of like with yourkids.
So you make it work.
But we did in answer to yourprevious question, we were kind
of a part of the fire movementfor a long time but also
realizing there was kind of aceiling to my husband's career
and then also moving here, kindof put that on hold.
(43:00):
So we're doing fine, but Idon't think we'll fire, maybe
like five years early, but notquite as early as we're aiming
for before.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
So yeah, well, and the FIRE movement.
For those who are not familiar,it stands for Financial
Independence, retire Early andso when you were talking about
like house hacking and things, Iwas like, wait, is she part of
FIRE?
Because you have to be sointentional?
Right, you have to beintentional to grow your wealth
in general, but if you're like,hey, I want to retire by the
(43:27):
time I'm 37, that's not going tohappen overnight and that's not
going to happen without a planin place.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
But what's funny about the FIRE movement is that
a lot of people, once they getto the R and the E, they're like
I don't necessarily want toretire early, I just want to do
something different.
That's what happens often.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
The people around you or your close friends are a lot
of times, also still working,so what are you doing in the
time that you're?
Speaker 1 (43:55):
off.
What do you do all day yeah?
Speaker 2 (43:56):
What do you?
Speaker 3 (43:57):
your circle is still working.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
There's very few people that are like full fire
and you know, not bringing inany.
You know, you know activeworking income.
They just are financiallyindependent, which is amazing
and great, and now they have theluxury and the ability to
choose what they do from aworking standpoint, which I
think is amazing.
Yeah, the work optional part, Ithink that's what everyone's
working towards in some aspectsis being work optional, having
(44:20):
more free time to choose howthey want to spend that free
time.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
And that's one thing too, that kind of took us out of
like true fire is my husband asa biologist.
He loves his job.
He wakes up ecstatic to go towork every day.
I mean he flies in helicoptersand counts deer and sedates
moose, and I joke that he'sbasically like Indiana Jones and
gets paid for it.
And he so as far as what hewould want to do all day when
he's retired.
He want to do then what he'sdoing now.
So, it's hard to want to likejump ship when you have your
(44:50):
dream job, so that's anotherthing that took us out of true,
pure fire, I guess.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Yeah, well, and it's.
I mean, how many people cantruly say they have a dream job?
I mean so, I mean, that's a,that's such a blessing that he
wakes up excited every day to dowhat he loves.
And if he can do that, becausehe loves it and his attitude is
great and it provides a niceliving, and he can do that for
20 more years Awesome, or 20plus years, I mean, that's,
(45:19):
that's the dream, ultimately,isn't it?
Speaker 2 (45:21):
I think it's also just understanding that, like,
for example, if you are doingfire and and you get to the
point where, like I can retire,you know, at 35.
And the average life expectancyis 85.
Oh, that's a long time, that'sa 50 years, and I, like you know
, with the today's economy, isnot the economy of yesterday.
So you have so many othervariables and when you stretch
(45:43):
out that timeframe even further,the risk is exponentially
higher in regards to not havingenough money.
So you I think a lot of peopledon't take into account some of
the unknown because, like Iremember Jess, like several
years back, before we even gotmarried, so that she had met
somebody and they were retiredearly, and I was like they're
our age and they're retiredearly.
I was like, unless this personhas like seven or $8 million, I
(46:04):
can tell you they're notretiring early.
Like, mathematically that's notgoing to work.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
Yeah, I think it was a temporary fire maybe, but yeah
, yeah, yeah exactly what wouldyou want to leave our listeners
with?
That are working moms.
Stay at home moms, moms thatwould like to be at home more
with their children.
When it comes to their financesand ensuring that they can, you
(46:31):
know, build the life that ismeaningful to them.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
I think you kind of answered it with that last part
is building a life that'smeaningful to you.
A lot of people think like, oh,I can't stay home, I
economically can't stay homewith my kids, like I can't
afford to, and that may be true,but staying at home with your
kids, if that is a priority foryou and if that's what's best
for your family, it's a lot moreachievable than people, than
(46:59):
people really think they think.
You know, I have to send mykids to private school, I have
to they have all theseactivities and I have to, you
know, shower them with Christmaspresents.
Like, if you're willing toscale back your expectations for
your kids' lives and I look,even a generation ago a lot of
that stuff wasn't a highpriority and I feel like kids
(47:20):
today are a lot, in a lot ofcases, kind of overscheduled.
They should go from gymnasticsto karate to, you know, a
tutoring session, to churchactivities and tennis and golf,
and it's like let's just slowdown and let them be kids and
that's free.
And like, obviously, give themenriching experiences so that
(47:40):
they can grow their talents, butmaybe they don't need five of
them.
And so if you're willing, as aparent, to scale back your
expectations of like this lavishchildhood for your kids, then
you probably can give them astay at home parent if that's
important to you and again,there are some people that being
at home with their kids woulddrive them up the wall and make
them into mean mom, which is alot of legit concerns.
(48:04):
This is not a one size fits allthing at all, um, but I
wouldn't.
If that's important to you andif that's what's best for your
family, I wouldn't.
I would dig in to see if youreally can make it work
financially and you may besurprised, um, especially, like
you said, with the savings onchildcare and some of those.
Can you know other conveniences?
(48:25):
Um, it may be more possiblethat people think.
Speaker 3 (48:31):
Yeah, I love, I love that you said that and called
that out, because I do think ourkids are overscheduled.
And one thing that we've beenreally happy about lately is
that our kids they come homefrom school they're at around
three they have a snack and thenthey play with the neighborhood
kids and they are just running,you know, from house to house,
(48:52):
from our backyard to theirbackyard, from the swing set to
the trampoline.
They're doing chalk, they'redoing scooters, they're, you
know, playing basketball outsidethere yesterday things that we
did in the 80s and 90s.
Right, and it's like you said,it's free and they are having a
blast and they're sleepingbetter and they're getting their
energy out and they're innature and in fresh air and that
(49:14):
.
And they don't ask for theirtablets, they're not asking to
watch television, they're notruining the playroom, you know
all the things.
And I'm like, oh, this is freeand I love it and it's great.
And now that's not to say thatwe don't want them to do a team
sport or pick up you know aninstrument down the line.
But I mean for even for mymental health, I'm like I can't
(49:35):
have my kids in five activitieseach.
I mean that's just.
I don't want to be just theirchauffeur where I'm just toting
them around.
So I think, calling that out,or even we've told friends and
family when they're like, whatdo they need for their birthday
or what do they want?
They don't need anything.
Read a book to them, do apuzzle, take them to the library
, take them to the park and havepopsicles after.
Speaker 2 (49:57):
Put some money in their investment account that we
have.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Yeah, yeah, one thing we've done that's actually been
really good we don't do thisevery year, but we have it was
Fiverr parties.
But inflation you could dotender parties is where on the
invitation we said you know yourpresence is the greatest
present, but if you want tobring a present, then just bring
a five or a $10 bill and a cardand that way that saves your
playroom from all the junk thatyou know is going to buy or
(50:22):
break in like a week that peoplebuy and they can save up and
buy something that's reallyimportant to them.
Um, so that's one thing we'vedone that's been really helpful.
On the party I love that.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
I suggested that this year for Roman cause.
He turned five and I was like,oh, he's turning five, $5 bill,
it's perfect.
And Brandon was like I thinkhe's still very much in the
phase of like I want to open apresent.
And so I asked, I asked him,would you rather have presents
or would you rather have people?
Because we know, we know ourcircle there, nobody wants to
show up empty handed, right.
And so I said, or would yourather everybody bring $5 and
(50:57):
you get to pick, you go to thestore, you can put some in your
piggy bank, but then you get toactually buy something that
you're really excited about.
And he was like I want thepresents, but next year we're
definitely going to go with the,with the Fiverr or the gift
card or you know.
However, people want to do thatwith a few dollars, because I
do think it.
It also gives them anopportunity to you know what
(51:18):
they enjoy because they weregifted.
It is very different than whatthey would prioritize if they
were spending their own money,and so I think those lessons are
really valuable as well as theyget older.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
So awesome, absolutely, and it's kind of a
gift that gives twice is becauseyou open it up and you're like,
oh, hey, money, and then youget to go to the store and then
pick, then you get to open it.
Speaker 3 (51:42):
No, I love that.
I think that's a great idea anda great call out, and the last
two birthdays he's had just at alocal park it's been great.
They spend a couple hoursrunning around.
We did rent the shelter butit's so much cheaper than you
know.
These three, four or $500birthday parties where you're
renting the jump place or theblow up place or the you know.
(52:03):
I mean it's all.
Just life is so expensive.
So I think grounding ourselvesback in, like the time together
is really what's special, andthe kids are not going to
remember what you bought themfor their fifth birthday.
I think those things like thatand being really intentional
again with where you spend yourtime and energy and money is
really what you have to do inorder to build that meaningful
(52:25):
life for yourself and yourfamily.
Speaker 1 (52:28):
Absolutely.
One litmus test that I kind ofdo is I like fast forward a few
years and, like you said,they're not going to remember
next year what they got for thisyear's birthday and kind of
going back to likeextracurriculars okay, is my kid
going to be happy that they didthis at like 25 or 30?
They may not care about, youknow, joining the tennis team.
They may not care about karate,you know.
(52:51):
They may still play aninstrument you know or you can.
You can't always know ahead oftime what you're what's going to
click with your kids, but youknow there's a lot of those
things that you know if theywon't care down the road.
Is it really, should it reallybe a financial priority now?
Speaker 3 (53:08):
Yeah, that's a great way to think about it.
Well, Jenny, thank you so muchfor being with us today.
We're so excited about thisconversation and sharing it with
our audience.
Where can our audience find you, your work, your?
Speaker 1 (53:21):
podcast.
I'm on mamasmoneymapcom and theMama's Money Map podcast is
wherever you listen to podcasts,except YouTube.
We're still getting YouTube upand running, perfect, but it's
M-A-M-A-S.
There's like four ways to spellmama and I had to just pick one
.
So, there's more domains I needto buy, but yeah, mama's Money
(53:42):
Map Instagram, mostly onInstagram and the podcast.
Speaker 3 (53:47):
Perfect.
We will make sure to link thatin our show notes so that
everybody can connect with youand learn from your podcast as
well.
So thank you so much for beingwith us today.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
Thanks for having me.
This has been an awesomeconversation.
Speaker 2 (53:59):
Yay.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
Don't forget.
Benjamin Franklin said aninvestment in knowledge pays the
best interest.
You just got paid Until nexttime.
Thanks for listening to today'sepisode.
We are so glad to have you aspart of our Sugar Daddy
(54:22):
community.
If you you learned somethingtoday, please remember to
subscribe, rate, review andshare this episode with your
friends, family and extendednetwork.
Don't forget to connect with uson social media at the sugar
daddy podcast.
You can also email us yourquestions you want us to answer
for our past the sugar segmentsat the sugar daddy podcast at
(54:43):
gmailcom, or leave us avoicemail through our Instagram.
Speaker 2 (54:47):
Our content is intended to be used, and must be
used, for informationalpurposes only.
It is very important to do yourown analysis before making any
investment based upon your ownpersonal circumstances.
You should take independentfinancial advice from a licensed
professional in connection withor independently research and
verify any information you findin our podcast and wish to rely
upon, whether for the purpose ofmaking an investment decision
or
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!