May 28, 2025 • 54 mins
Your money story isn’t just about numbers—it’s about emotions.
In this powerful episode, financial therapist Wendy Wright unpacks why 80–90% of our financial decisions are emotionally driven—and how your earliest money memories are likely still shaping your current habits.
You’ll learn:
- How to spot hidden money patterns rooted in childhood
- A simple reframe that helps couples stop fighting about "money"
- Why debt often triggers shame—and what to do about it
- How to start healing your relationship with money, without judgment
If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed, ashamed, or stuck when it comes to finances, this conversation will leave you feeling seen—and empowered.
Visit prenups.com/sugardaddy to learn more about fair prenups that help couples plan for a healthy financial relationship.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:51):
In today's episode, we speak tofinancial therapist Wendy Wright
, who blends psychology andmoney to help people transform
their relationship with finances.
If you need a judgment-freeconversation and way to approach
navigating spending, saving andfinancial blocks, this episode
is for you.
Hey, babe, what are we talkingabout today?
(01:22):
Today we are talking aboutsomething that we mention often,
which is how money is emotionaland how we really have an
emotional connection to whetherit's positive or negative to our
money, and we talk about this alot.
So we figured it was time tobring in somebody who actually
knows what they're talking about.
And so we are talking to afinancial therapist today, which
I think is so exciting becausewe're going to dig into our
(01:44):
emotions and our mindset aroundmoney with somebody who does
this for a living.
Wendy, welcome to the SugarDaddy podcast.
We're so happy to have you.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Hi, I am very excited to be here and I think that
it's just really fantastic thework you guys are doing.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Thank you so much.
Well, we want to make sure thatour listeners know exactly who
we're speaking to, so we'regoing to get into your bio and
then, of course, we're going toget into your first money memory
, because that is how we like tostart our guest conversations.
Wendy Wright is a financialtherapist who blends psychology
and money to help peopletransform their relationship
(02:23):
with finances.
With a background in therapy,coaching, real estate and
business, she brings a unique,judgment-free approach to
navigating spending, saving andfinancial blocks.
Based in Denver and workingvirtually worldwide, wendy
supports individuals, couples,entrepreneurs and working
professionals.
Her insights have been featuredin outlets like CNBC,
(02:45):
quickbooks and various podcastslike the Stacking Benjamins
podcast.
Welcome to the Sugar Daddypodcast.
Thank you, wendy.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yeah, thanks, Jessica .
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I'm thrilled to be here.
I'm so glad.
All right, let's get into yourfirst money memory.
We always love to know ourguests' kind of origin stories
and their first thoughts andfeelings and memories around
money.
So we'd love to hear yourstoday.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Yeah, okay.
So when I think about this,usually the first one that pops
up for me is when I bought myfirst toy and I don't know if
anybody remembers this one, butit was a Chrissy doll who had
this button on her belly buttonand you push it and her hair
would grow, and then you push itagain and the hair would come
(03:30):
back in.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah, you're nodding Jessica have you seen this
before.
So I remember vividly wantingone and not getting one.
So I remember yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Well, I think she had a pretty big impact on me too,
because, um the one I got wasredheaded and um later on in
life, I went through probablylike two decades where I was
coloring my hair red.
So I can only say that that wasan origin story for, uh, my red
hair days as well.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
I love it.
So important question did youcut her hair when you press the
belly button?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
and it went long.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Okay, cause I think I would have cut her.
Cut the hair, yeah, probably.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
No, I am not.
Um I I didn't cut any of mydoll's hair.
I was like I don't even cut myown I like I'm.
I just have this thing whereI'm scared to cut my hair.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
I don't cut my own hair, but definitely all my
Barbies, all of my my baby dolls.
They had terrible bangsterrible haircuts?
Absolutely, it was a thing.
Yeah, like the bangs that areup to here, kind of thing.
Yeah, exactly.
So did you buy the Christy dollwith?
Speaker 3 (04:38):
your own money or was it a gift, or what?
Speaker 1 (04:39):
was the story there.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
I remember in my memory I bought it with my own
money.
I'm guessing that was likeChristmas birthday money,
because I was like 10-ish, youknow, like young enough not to
have a job yet, and so that wasanother thing I remember about
thinking it was really specialbecause I had bought it myself.
I'm sure then I was a littlemore bossy with my little
(05:03):
brother that he probably wasn'tallowed to touch it.
I can only imagine.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
It becomes more precious when you spend your own
money.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Yeah, yeah, it definitely does.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
All right, real quick .
I want to speak to the personlistening who feels like they
can't work with a financialplanner yet because they're
carrying a lot of debt.
First of all, I see you and Ineed you to know.
You're not broken, you're notbehind.
You're just in a tough season.
I created something just foryou because I've had people
reach out who are serious aboutchanging their money story.
But the full financial planningpackage just wasn't the right
(05:40):
fit yet.
So I built a new servicethrough Oak City Financial
that's focused completely ondebt reduction no fluff, no
shame.
You'll get a one-time planningsession, a personalized payoff
strategy, your own financialdashboard and monthly coaching.
If you want extra support whileyou climb out, it's $300 to get
started and $100 a month.
If you want that ongoingguidance, that's it.
(06:02):
This is about helping you getunstuck, not making you feel
like you failed.
If this sounds like what you'vebeen needing, go ahead and
schedule a call with me.
The link is in the show notes.
Let's take the first steptogether.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Well, how did we get from the Chrissy doll?
And then you have kind of realestate.
I know you've done some houseflipping and I mean you've had
quite the background.
What led you into financialtherapy?
I mean that's a very new andniche space.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
It is.
It's still relatively new, soI'm really glad to have the
opportunity to explain to youraudience what it is.
That is still often when Ispeak, um, or you know, when I'm
meeting with potential newclients, um, usually when I
speak, only maybe 1% of thepeople have even heard the
phrase before, so it's stillreally new.
(06:57):
Um, for me it seemed like whenI got to it it was just this big
aha of okay, this was all myhistory and one of my.
I think it's on my about page,but often I have said I feel
like my life is like a quilt,like you're just putting all the
squares in and you don't reallyknow the design until you look
(07:20):
at it.
So when I found financialtherapy, I've been a therapist
for 25 years and this was about10 years ago.
I was working this long storyshort, but because there's a lot
to this, I was working in highlevel eating disorder care.
I'm also an eating disorderspecialist and intuitive eating
counselor and in my in mybackground.
But I because of my businessbackground, because I was in
(07:43):
mortgage banking and I flippedhouses and you know, even a
therapy practice as a business.
I've been in private practicebefore and, as my clients would
either demonstrate some moneybehaviors such as um, these were
patients at high level eatingdisorder care, so everything got
delivered to the front desk andthere would be like a hundred
(08:03):
boxes a day coming in there andto me I was like that's
interesting and curious.
And I began talking to clients,patients, about it and found
they were often because theycouldn't use the eating disorder
behaviors they were shifting,often into some kind of money
behavior.
For instance, maybe shopping was.
(08:25):
I'd say, show me what youbought.
We'd pull it up on the screenand they'd say this is what I
got.
And it was so, so cool.
Because they were using thesame exact words, like if they
were using an eating disorderbehavior such as restriction or
binging, it would be so I don'tget fat, so I can be accepted,
(08:47):
so I can, you know, be normal,you know whatever there's.
Then they were buying thist-shirt like well, I wanted to
get that shirt because then Iwould feel like I fit in, I'm
accepted, I feel normal, I feellike I would be thin, you know
all of those kinds of things.
And I was like this is reallyinteresting, um, so then I began
(09:08):
literally to Google um, hasanyone else noticed the
connection between money andemotions and, as you may or may
not have heard at this point,there's research done now, so
that's helpful, but, um, upwards, like research will tell you,
80 to 90% of our financialdecision-making is emotionally
driven yes, makes sense.
(09:29):
And so started to put all thattogether and then went back into
private practice at the timeand then, exclusively now, I
focus on financial therapy.
I also got money, coachingtraining, so I have this really
unique blend of the therapeuticapproach and coaching training.
So, um, uh, I have this reallyunique blend of the therapeutic
approach and coaching tools, andthen we look at it from the
(09:49):
therapy lens and do all thesekinds of things with it.
So it helps to, uh, reallycreate some change, but not just
change, but change that'ssustainable.
That's so important to me.
Like we can all do somethingfor about 21 days, right, but
then what about a year later?
You know what about threemonths later?
So we want it to be sustainable.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
For the audience, to kind of help them have a better
understanding of what financialtherapy is, can you kind of
explain a little bit more ofwhat it is and what it's not?
Speaker 3 (10:28):
more of what it is and what it's not.
Yes, it's just a great questiontoo, because, as I have even
trained therapists to dofinancial therapy, that was a
big part too.
Like, where do you draw theline Financial therapy?
And even because I'm alsotrained in coaching, so there's
even a, you know, there'stherapy, there's coaching,
there's coaching, um, there'sadvising and planning, um,
there's also, um financialcounselors, which often is very
(10:51):
different than financial therapy.
So it's, it's a great thing tobe able to distinguish there.
Um, so I'm a licensed therapistand a marriage and family
therapist, which is why it'sgoing to be great for us to also
talk about couples.
But in the financial therapy,the way I describe it every
(11:11):
session, we talk about money.
In other therapies, which we'llcall them other traditional
therapies, you may or may nottalk about money, and a lot of
my clients will come to me.
Sometimes therapists will sendtheir clients will come to me.
Sometimes therapists will sendtheir clients to me to do the
money work, because theyrecognize every time we kind of
(11:31):
got close to money, my therapistwas like I don't really feel
comfortable talking about thatand we wouldn't talk about it.
And so there is, like you know,you want to have a certain
level of comfort talking aboutmoney and also, as with any
money work at all, no matterwhat you're in, it's really
important to do your own moneywork first and kind of know your
(11:52):
story and stuff.
So financial therapy is goingto be more about looking at
what's your story, and I alwayssay we look back at the story
for context, not to hang blame.
We don't want to get stuckthere, but we want to see oh
okay, that makes sense why thisis coming up for you or why
you're doing this.
We want to look at the feelingsand so one of the things I will
(12:15):
often do is have people pauseand maybe we're talking about a
certain spending decision-makingand I'll say talking about a
certain spending decision makingand I'll say what was your
feeling?
Now, most people are not usedto describing their feelings, so
sometimes we'll yeah, we'llpull up the feelings wheel,
(12:36):
which you can just Googlefeelings wheel, and you'll get a
ton of really good options andthey'll look at it and they'll
be like, oh, and then they'relike naming four or five
different feelings all around,whatever the spending decision
was.
So we look at that.
Maybe there's healing to dofrom financial trauma or
(12:57):
financial hardships.
Maybe there's grief, work to doaround something that feels
like a financial mistake, workto do around something that
feels like a financial mistake,because often if we feel like we
made a mistake, we can getstuck there, especially if we're
perfectionists like me.
There is also communicationwork, mindset work, all of those
(13:18):
things that really play a role,and so that is where the
therapeutic role comes in.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Okay, I love that.
And to take it to the next, youknow, the next part of that is
what?
Clearly, is it not?
Because I think that's the hardpart for people is that they
start to kind of blur the lines.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it's not investmentadvice.
Okay, um, it's not, uh, sellingany kind of products, you know,
like investment products, orrecommending, um, oh, you need
uh this index fund and or you,you know, kind of, do this.
Um, it's not, um, in many casesit's not going to include
(13:57):
coaching.
It's not going to include, youknow, um, why don't you do this
or why don't you do that?
Uh, tactically, this, or whydon't you do that Tactically.
It is also, it is also not geton a quote unquote budget.
It's not.
(14:20):
Oh, you just need to pay offyour debt.
Or it's not anything with theword just in the sentence,
because it's way more complexthan that.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
That's a really gooddistinction and I love what you
said about doing the work aroundmindset and trauma and building
and showing context.
I think that and I'm you knowwe're going to talk about it,
but I'm sure that comes in a lotwhen you're working with
couples who have varyingbackgrounds and experiences with
(14:48):
money and building that contextcan help you understand well.
Why is my partner the way theyare?
Why does it take them so longto make a decision?
Why do they spend withoutpausing?
You know, whatever directionpeople go, I think that context
is really important.
So thank you for clarifyingthat for us.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Yeah, I think it's also very important to clarify,
because it also helps youdistinguish where you're at in
your journey and what youactually need, because correct
me if I'm wrong as well I wouldsay that, from maybe a
sequential order, that a lot ofpeople maybe need to go work it
out with a financial therapistprior to working with someone
like myself as a financialadvisor.
If that's what they need, Idefinitely have experience
(15:32):
working trying to start workingwith someone.
That's very clear.
Like you're not ready yet,maybe you do need to speak with
a financial therapist prior toworking with me.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
Yes, absolutely.
And I mean tell me what youthink about this.
Like, this is how it turns outwhen they come to me.
Then we talk about um, what isthe role of um, an advisor,
planner kind of person, and thenhow, um, how do you talk to
them?
And I have actually role playedmany times that conversation
(16:05):
because a lot of my clients youprobably have noticed like maybe
their their eyes glaze over orthey seem real distracted or you
know all these sorts of thingsthat are telegraphing to you,
this is too big, I can't touchit yet, kind of feeling.
And then we practice and breakit down to where they can have a
much more satisfyingconversation.
(16:26):
So it works hand in hand reallynicely.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yeah, I try to incorporate, you know, aspects
of behavioral finance, butobviously I'm not a financial
therapist so I cannot go nearlyas deep as you do.
But I do try to address thatbecause, like you said, if it
was just simply you know peoplehaving, it was just simply the
numbers, it'd be easy.
And that's 1% of what I do andthat's 1% of how people even
(16:52):
make decisions.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Everything is an emotional attachment.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Yeah, absolutely, if I came to you, wendy, as a first
time client.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
What would our first session be like?
Great question, the firstsession is I'm doing a lot of
listening and you're going to doa lot of talking, so we really
want to go back into essentially, tell me your story through the
lens of money, and this issomething most people have never
done, never even thought aboutdoing.
(17:26):
So we start looking back toearly money memories because
they usually tell us something.
So when we begin to do that wemay start at maybe the first
memories are in elementaryschool, maybe the first memories
are in high school.
We go through, I'll askquestions like when you got your
(17:47):
first paycheck, what did youthink and feel?
What was the job of that money?
What was the function of it?
For a lot of people that firstpaycheck, the job was the
ability to make independentdecisions and which is really
really powerful to see, becausethat's one of um.
One of my favorite reframes ofmoney is to look at it as a
(18:11):
decision-making issue, so thatwe can stop Um.
We can easily get stuck on theword money and think money is
the problem.
Quote unquote.
I'm using air quotes Um, and sothat really helps us begin to
open that up to see what'sreally going on.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah, how long do people typically and I'm sure it
varies, but what is if there isan average of how many times
would I see you to have my Idon't know my money breakthrough
or really understand why?
I am the way I am or feel theway I feel about my money.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Yeah, it is so.
Of course, the answer is itdepends.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
But based on my experience.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
It depends, we'll see .
One of the ways that we beginto look at it is you can have a
breakthrough in the firstsession.
Often in the first or secondsession telling the story,
clients will kind of have someof those lean back moments of
like, oh my gosh, I had no idea.
(19:14):
Like now that I'm saying it outloud, it makes perfect sense,
you know, kind of thing.
So there's a lot of insightgained from looking at the story
and talking it through.
The story and talking it throughTypically it's easily three to
six months of work is a goodframe for it because it's not
fast work.
But I do personally try toblend the sort of like the long
(19:38):
term trajectory with short termgains or changes so that they
feel a momentum, because that'sreally important when you're
trying to make a change.
One of the biggest things thatwill start to help it feel
better is just the fact thatthey've started talking about it
in a safe, non-judging place.
Because seriously, raise yourhand, but not if you're driving,
(20:00):
of course.
But you know you guys raiseyour hand if you've ever
experienced a completelynon-judging place to talk about
money.
Most people have not.
So that in and of itself canreally be a game changer.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, one of the driving factors behind us
starting the podcast was tonormalize conversations about
money.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Yes, without the shame and guilt and fear and
stigma and all the things thatcome with talking about money,
you know, and then especially in, in, uh, communities of color,
a lot of times it's don't talkabout money because it's rude,
it's disrespectful, it's private, et cetera, et cetera.
So then we miss a lot of thevaluable lessons that we wish,
(20:40):
looking back, we would havelearned about.
You know, saving spending,value-based spending, better
decision-making, et cetera.
So, um, yeah, really important.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
So have you seen where maybe you were working
with someone on an individualbasis and they have a
breakthrough and you know, theystart to interact with money in
a much more healthy state, butthen they get into a
relationship and they end upcoming back with their partner
because I think that's acompletely different phase in
their life and they may be ableto address different things when
it comes to that aspect.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Absolutely yes, um.
Because well, I'll ask you guys, you know a lot of couples like
have you ever met a couple thathad the exact same money story,
or not even the exact same, um,annual income?
You know like so the amount ofdifferences.
If you think about itmathematically, you just sort of
extrapolate like the differentinput coming into every decision
(21:34):
, and then if most of thosedecisions aren't talked about,
then you know a year later or afew years later, they're feeling
icky and they're like I don'tknow what's going on, we're
stuck.
And then we open it up infinancial therapy and start
talking about it and it reallymakes a difference.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
So I feel like I could think of you know from my
end, as far as some of thedifferent phases that people go
through in their lives on, likehow you might be like I said in
this scenario, you're fine as anindividual Then maybe, when it
comes to being in a relationship, you need some help.
I can even think past that.
You know, once you have kids,once you know if you were maybe
(22:12):
perhaps to become a caretakerfor your parents and having to
manage their finances I couldthink of so many different ebbs
and flows through your lifewhere you might need that
financial therapy or evenplanning the wedding right?
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Oh, I want a small wedding, you want a big wedding.
I mean those budgets can varygreatly.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Right, right, and and and the um.
Oh gosh, we could spend a wholeout five hours talking about the
wedding.
Um.
However, what we'll just let'skind of boil it down to, it's
about decision-making and it'sabout having an awareness of
what are the factors playinginto each decision.
For instance, we'll just pickon the wedding for a minute.
(22:51):
Let's say you know you're amonth away and you've got all
this stuff lined up, and thenyou find out you're going to
have to pay twice as much forthe photographer, for instance.
And then you're just likeyou're.
So perhaps you're so tired ofmaking decisions you're not
going to make one, but you're,you know you're.
So perhaps you're so tired ofmaking decisions You're not
going to make one, but you're,you know you're making one.
By not making one, you're likefine, we'll do it, we just have
(23:12):
to get this over with kind of,okay, normal, we're not going to
judge it, but also we're goingto recognize wow, okay, that
played a role.
Like decision fatigue played arole.
Like decision fatigue played arole.
Conflict avoidance plays a role,like all of these different
things.
Pleasing parents plays a role,pleasing the or like fitting in,
(23:36):
pleasing the community,whatever.
They all play a role, all playa role, and weddings tend to
sort of be this um, uh, like bigwave of all of those things
come together at once, feelingum, and then when I'm working
with people during before andduring the wedding, then after
(23:57):
the wedding there's tends to bea lot of grief work we do
because it didn't go the waythey hoped.
So we try to talk that throughbefore each of those decisions
happen.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Now, do you, in these sessions, do you dig into the
numbers and actually create aplan for, maybe, how a couple
could pay off the wedding?
Or maybe the goal is, we don'twant to have a wedding with debt
, so how can we have the weddingthat we want within?
You know this budget I know youdon't like that word.
(24:33):
We can get into that, um, butare you actually like digging
into the numbers and helpingpeople solution what they can
actually afford?
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Yes, um, okay, you're bringing up some really good
stuff.
So let me preface this with acouple of things.
So I've put together 10principles of financial therapy
so that just to kind of helppeople understand what the heck
is this stuff.
So let's start with the firstone and then I'll jump into
(25:05):
another one.
But the first one is toapproach money with abundant
compassionate curiosity and zerojudgment.
So we start there.
That usually is a huge gamechanger for people to have that
compassion, curiosity and zerojudgment.
So, as someone's comingtogether, then also not having
(25:26):
that judgment can be reallyimportant, because part of
judgment isn't always likehardcore, like oh, that's bad or
whatever.
Sometimes it's just like apreconceived notion of commonly,
like I'm stressed, okay, thatmeans something different to
everybody.
So beginning to open that upand like, well, what does that
(25:47):
mean if you're stressed, well,I'm, I'm worried about this and
or I'm worried about this.
So we kind of begin to do thatin relationships.
Then we want to begin to lookat the plan and let I do move
away from the word budget,because often that word has a
history.
I haven't met anybody yet thatdidn't have that word, have a
(26:11):
history and emotional sort ofbaggage, so to speak, like that,
it feels restrictive, it feelsperfectionistic, it feels um,
and often budgets are based onnot real numbers.
They're based on what we shouldor shouldn't do, and so if
you've heard any you know verymuch about should and shouldn't,
that's usually like a clue thatthere might be some shame.
(26:32):
And shame does not help us makedecisions.
It actually inhibits ourdecision making.
So we want to see that.
So, yes, then we start lookingat the overall plan, because a
lot of times, what happensbefore you do this work, before
you get this um more healedrelationship with money and
planning, we tend to make ourdecisions based on the moment.
(26:57):
So, in other words, um, let'ssay, uh, a t-shirt Okay, and we
all have a.
Um, a t-shirt Okay, and we allhave a quiet, secret price point
that a t-shirt should cost.
Maybe it's $2, maybe it's 200,but you, you know, or you're
just looking at this saying,okay, well, I'm using my
(27:22):
reference point, I'm going to goshop for this t-shirt, and if
it's, if I think they should allbe $10 and they're on sale for
$8.99, I'm going to get excitedand think I got a deal right,
and then good for me.
And if it's $12, I'm going tobe like.
That is expensive.
So you know, we want to knowwhere is your price point, what
are you starting with and whatare you basing that on?
And for a lot of big purchasesthere's usually a lot of
(27:43):
guesswork going on or it's likewell, so-and-so did it.
So this must be right.
When we begin to work, when I'mworking with a couple, and we
look at the numbers, we bring inthe numbers, because numbers
have an emotional relationshipas well.
For someone, I'll just say Xnumber of dollars is a lot,
(28:04):
whereas for someone else it'snot a lot, right?
And so we want to see that, wewant to talk about that, we want
to know what the numbers are,and so, by naming the numbers in
session, sometimes that meanswe log in to, perhaps we log
into the bank account and welook at what's going on, or log
into their pay stub, becausethere's a high percentage of
(28:27):
people who, um, do not know howmuch they get paid, and so
Brandon says that all the time.
It's the truth right, brandon,yeah, yeah, and so then.
And so that's where financialtherapy can be really helpful,
and the fact that it's virtualis really powerful because
you're on your computer.
So I'm like, okay, log in rightnow, and I'm here to help you,
(28:51):
because, logging in, looking atthe numbers, we don't know what
emotions are going to pop up yet.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
So we look at that Rage when I see the taxes and
the social security numbers comeout, that comes to mind.
And the social security numberscome out.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
That comes to mind.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely,absolutely, which, knowing that
that might come up, would helpyou avoid it, right, like, if
you're like I don't know whatI'm going to do with it, so you
know.
So all of this, so let's comeback to the couple and the plan
of the wedding.
What I want them to see is notjust the wedding, not just this
(29:27):
month.
We want to look out at least 12months.
And for the wedding, I likethem to look out 24 months at
least, because I want them tosee the long-term impact of the
price of the wedding, withoutany judgment, cause we're just
like hey, you get to make thisdecision.
I'm not telling you what to door not do, but I want you to see
the impact.
(29:47):
And what happens with that isthey're able to slow the process
down a little bit, which isobviously.
I've got breathe behind me.
That's a big part of myfoundational journey journaling
exercise.
We start with breath, then wemove to intention and then we
move to an action, to movement.
So let's say we're doing thiswith the wedding, like take some
(30:10):
breaths, all right, I want tohave the perfect wedding.
That's an intention, that's nota goal, that's not an action
step, and then we move into okay, what do you want to do, using
kind of the smart, you know,specific, measurable, attainable
(30:32):
, realistic, time-sensitive sortof framework.
Okay, then what I will do isI'll decide on a number and then
I'll plug it into my overallplan and see how that feels.
Um, because we we don't want tojust feel the run up to the
wedding, we want to feel thepayoff of the debt.
Now, on the flip of that also,if you're, if you come to me
after it's done, because a lotof people will, I don't want to
talk about this till after thewedding.
Right, I'm also, it's reallyimportant to look at debt not as
(30:58):
a number yet, but as anemotional story, because people
who are stressed about theamount of debt they have are
typically stressed about themeaning of the debt, not the
number and so we really makesthem a bad.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
They feel like it makes them a bad person.
They're morally compromised,like all these heavy, usually
not very positive things it's'sassociated with every negative
feeling, every negativestereotype, every negative
viewpoint.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Yes, absolutely, but you can probably attest to this
as well.
In my experience, paying offdebt is very different than
staying out of debt, and I wantto help you stay out of debt.
I don't care about the payingoff of it.
So we're going to start with.
How do we get here and how dowe shift that core
decision-making of using debt asa payment method?
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest things that's
overlooked is how did you getinto debt?
Because if you don't changethat behavior once you paid off
that debt, you're going to goright back into debt, because
you didn't address the rootcause.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Absolutely, absolutely, and as a former debt
cycler I can attest to it's amiserable experience.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Well, and that's why you hear people will do like the
debt consolidation loans, andokay, if I can get this into one
lump sum, it'll be moremanageable, I'll feel better,
and then, yeah, you might pay itoff, but you didn't change your
habits, you didn't really dothe work to understand what got
you there in the first place.
So this is so powerful, wendy.
I mean I feel like at thisstage, everybody should have a
(32:34):
financial therapist before theyget married, because this is big
.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
You're like, yes, One of the things I like that you
said was along the lines of younot telling people you know this
is what you have to do.
So I think a lot of people youknow, when they're working with
a therapist or even withfinancial advising, they think
that I'm here to tell them whatto do and what not to do and I'm
like that is not my role.
You are the one driving thisplan.
(33:00):
I'm simply here to help providesome guidance.
But ultimately you're thedecision maker and you know you
might make decision a, butdecision a can come with pros
and cons and that might, youknow, affect what happens
afterwards.
But you can still make thedecision.
I'm not going to tell you notto.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yeah, but to see the big picture of those decisions.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Well, I think that's one of the biggest things.
People have a hard time takinga step back and looking past
step one, because so many thingsare going on in our life that
you know, outside of just whatyou're trying to do from a
financial standpoint, there's somuch other things going on in
your life that you don't have alot of excess attention that you
can, you know, use.
We're inundated with so manythings and working with someone
(33:41):
like you know yourself, wendy,or if you've gotten past that
point in work, someone like meis that we have the ability to
take a step back and look at thelarger picture so we can see
past step one, two, three, fourand help you with that.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Wendy, what do you see when you're working with
couples, Like if you had to puta theme around your work with
couples.
What do you see?
Speaker 3 (34:03):
a lot of around your, your work with couples.
What do you see?
A lot of.
Well, I would say, thematically, we're doing communication work
.
So that's really a lot ofwhat's going on.
Yeah, yeah, that's really a lotof what's going on is kind of
misinterpreted communication oravoided communication, and so,
(34:30):
um, usually, with when thecouple has a certain level of
affection for each other, we can, we can make some shifts.
If the couple comes and one ofthem just wants me to tell the
other one that they're wrong or,you know, straighten up and
behave Not a good starting point, not a good starting point.
(34:50):
And so, if that energy is there, I recommend they both do
individual work, because there'sjust there's too much there to
come together yet.
But essentially, I willdescribe it as we want to
decrease reactivity in order toincrease connection, and that
connection is both to each other, to yourself and to your
financial future as we begin todecrease reactivity and
(35:15):
reactivity is not just likegetting loud and throwing things
, it's also avoidant, likeavoiding is a reaction, shutting
down is a reaction, leaving theroom is a reaction.
So, as we begin to decreasethat and it will tell you what's
really cool about it is,couples will come back after
three to six sessions as webegin to work on this, and they
(35:35):
will literally I've heard thismany times I didn't think this
was possible, but we went awhole week without a fight, or
you know, like I didn't thinkthis was possible, but we had a
conversation about money and itwent okay, like.
So it's really cool work.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Yeah, and so powerful because I can only imagine.
I mean, we talk about money allthe time, not only because we
have a financial literacypodcast and this is what he does
for work, but we just havegotten in such a rhythm where
it's just a normal dinner tablehousehold conversation when it's
good, bad ugly.
Last week we found out hisout-of-pocket max is $9,000 for
(36:16):
his Achilles, so we're going tohave to plan some things.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
It's like one of those things where, like I pay
attention to normally.
And we didn't, but I didn'tnecessarily pay attention,
because I don't actuallynormally hurt myself.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah, he's a very healthy person.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
But when he goes big, you know when he yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
So it was one of those like okay, well, we
thought okay, once you hit 5,000, maybe 6,000, and now it's
9,000?
Like come on, and so even justthat, you know, we were kind of
standing around having lunch andjust kind of talking through it
, some upcoming expenses, and Ihave to get a crown.
I mean just you know life andwe just talk about it normally.
(36:53):
But I know that for a lot ofpeople those are really heavy,
burdensome conversations becausethere is large amounts of money
attached.
I don't want to spend $9,000 onhis surgery and my crown.
I want to go to Bora Bora withthat money.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Right, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
But I can understand how heavy those topics are,
those day to day you know payingfor camp, paying for daycare,
getting the car, you know, oh, Ineed four new tires for my SUV.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Like that's hundreds if not thousands of dollars, you
know.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
I mean it's, it's the daily life conversations that
if you can't have those in aneutral, like it is what it is,
let's come up with a plan kindof a way I can see how stressful
your home environment can be.
Then too, you know.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
I mean I have definitely had, you know,
meetings with potential clients,you know couples and I can feel
the stress through the zoomcall.
You have them.
They are just not on the samepage at all and I could think of
two distinct couples that Idon't.
They are.
They are divorced now.
I don't necessarily know youknow all the ins and outs of
(38:04):
their relationship and what ledto the divorce, but I could tell
from sitting on thatconversation with them that I'm
not surprised that word ended ifyou didn't address those issues
, cause I could see it rightthere and it's, it's hard.
There's nothing that if,especially when it comes to
couples working with couples, ifyou haven't done the work to be
on the same page before youcome to me, I'm not going to be
(38:24):
able to help you.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Yeah, right, because you are not a therapist.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
I am not a therapist.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Yeah, you are not a family counselor.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
And it's also.
It's also, like I said, I'm nota therapist, I'm not trained in
this, I don't have a backgroundin this, so I don't want to
breach that line of where Ishould stay in my place as your
advisor and then start givingyou personal advice in your
marriage, like I think that'snot my, that's not my role.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
You know how do I?
I speak to financial servicesproviders about how to feel like
you can be compassionate andpresent but also not have
Where's the line, how to notcross that line and when to make
that referral you brought.
(39:11):
You guys just brought up somereally good stuff, though, but I
want to go back to the firstthing that I was really struck
with.
Back to the first thing that Iwas really struck with and I
don't think you'll mind mesaying this about you is this
whole thing about the out ofpocket and not paying attention
and not knowing.
It's because you're human.
It's fantastic, right, like weall do that, so dissolving the
judgment around it.
But if something like thathappens and there's judgment
(39:35):
like I should have known better,then that's a very different
conversation with your spouse,because you are like already
feeling defensive, for instance,or shame or stupid.
That comes up for a lot ofpeople.
They automatically go to I'mstupid.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
And so I should have known better.
Why didn't I know this?
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I think that's the number one reason, especially
for people who are high earnersor have advanced degrees.
That is the number one reasonthat prevents them from doing
anything Like I'm smart, I makea lot of money, I should know
this.
I'm like right.
Last time I checked med, schooldoesn't teach about finances.
So you, being a doctor, not atall.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Well, and I'll even.
I'll kind of add another layer.
Neither one of us went into.
Well, you should have known, orhow did you not know that?
Because you know what we sitdown at open enrollment before
we make the decision togetherevery year, and the whole
family's on my insurance andlisten, you're not going to
catch me.
So we schedule time and I'mlike here's the plan, here's all
(40:37):
the things, what are we goingto need?
What's upcoming, who, who, whoneeds braces, whatever it is,
and we talk about it.
So when we called the insuranceto confirm, hey, what is this
out of pocket?
And she said $9,000.
We both looked at each otherlike, well, we definitely missed
that because we did it together.
So there was.
There was not even anopportunity for blame.
(40:59):
If we're going to blameanything, it's exhaustion and
life and how busy we are.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
And like we clearly missed it.
If anything, honestly I wouldblame myself because of what I
do, for a living, because youusually are really good about
that.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
I'm the one that's normally very on top of this.
So I was like, yeah, but I thinkit's so easy in in a
partnership to be like, well,you should have and you didn't,
and you, you said you were goingto.
But if you're doing it togetherand you're at least trying to
take accountability together,then when stuff like this
happens, okay, well, let'sproblem solve it together, cause
(41:30):
it's not your fault, it's notmy fault.
Yeah, it stinks, and like thiswas not, we're going to be
mindful.
Next, open enrollment, becausewe're not going to want this
again, but there's nothing wecan do and we're not going to
place blame.
So I think, even getting to aplace where you can have those
decisions and make them together, whether they're right or wrong
, then you prevent that nextproblem, which is that blame
(41:54):
that so often is easy to kind ofjust happen.
You know, that's my take.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
Yeah, no, that's great.
I mean, you're kind of giving aliving, real time example of
what it looks like to have donesome of this work, because it's
a lot of times what we talkabout in therapy worlds, like do
the work, and I'm like whatdoes that mean?
Um, so, being able to clear outpockets of judgment and shame
(42:21):
and moralizing that happens alot with money.
Uh, moralizing like oh, youknow you're a good person or a
bad person.
And and then also youdemonstrated learning, because
one of my principles is a planis only as good as the
adjustment process, becausethings like this always happen.
None of us are perfect, so forthat it's a great example, like
(42:44):
if you're like oh, I didn't likehow that felt.
Next year, let's do itdifferently.
On a more like tactical sense,that I encourage people to have
sort of a spreadsheet or a pieceof paper where they fill all
these things out and look ahead,and you're like, okay, let's be
double sure that that's on that, you know that page or that
(43:07):
whatever.
Like so that you have a, notjust a way in that moment to say
I want to remember this nextMay or whenever, but to have
also a system in place that isum like sustainable, but
organized and creates um.
These helps for your memory,because our memories are not
(43:27):
that good.
I don't care how old you areTerrible, and so that happens a
lot with money.
We do a lot of mental math ormental sort of I'll remember
this and we don't.
So we need a system mental mathor mental sort of I'll remember
this and we don't.
So we need a system.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
If, for people who arelistening, they're walking their
dog or driving right now, what,what could you say that they
can take almost immediately intoa conversation with their
partner that can make theirmoney conversations
incrementally better with verylittle effort?
Speaker 3 (44:01):
Yes, I love that question because I have an
answer and it's fun.
One of my other principles isto and you can, you'll remember
this, it's just five, like a fewwords let's take the money word
out of the sentence.
So if you say, for instance, wealways fight about money, and
(44:21):
I'll say, okay, take the moneyword out, tell me what you're
fighting about.
Or if it's like, oh, I didn't,you know, uh, you're spending
too much, all right, take theword spending out, what is
happening too much, what ishappening more than you'd like.
So that begins to really openit up and get it out of this
(44:43):
field of it's just about money,because it's not.
At least 80 to 90% of the timeit's not about money.
So we want to switch out thatword and that usually brings a
lot of insight.
Sometimes it's reallychallenging Because I've had
clients sit with me for 10, 15,20 minutes and they're just like
no, wendy, it's about the money.
(45:12):
And then we get to it and it'sabout, you know, feeling seen,
or feeling respected, or feelingsmart, or feeling all kinds of
things Like.
There's a lot that can come upwith that.
So that's one easy thing youcan do today is take the money
word out of the sentence and seewhat comes up with, of course,
the compassionate curiosity andzero judgment.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Yes, well, I was going to ask, when you take the
money out, what's left?
But I love the peeling back ofthe layers because it it might
come down to how that person isfeeling, either while they're
spending the money or whiletheir partner's spending the
money.
And maybe I would think toprioritization.
Right, maybe one partnerprioritizes spending money on
(45:49):
one thing versus another, orhabits, I mean, is there, is
there a theme behind that thatyou typically see, or something
that comes up often when peopletake the money out?
Of the sentence?
Speaker 3 (46:06):
I'd say it's not surprising if what comes up is
some sort of belief aboutthemselves and money, that is, a
negative self belief such asyou know, like well, I was
trying to make a, you know, asmart decision because I feel
stupid or something like that.
So often it kind of goes underthat.
(46:26):
And, you know, if you thinkabout you know with your partner
, if they share it's, you know,instead of like I spent this on
this, but they share, I wastrying to do this so that people
thought I was smart orsomething like that, like then
you can connect on that level.
You can.
You can meet that person thereand, um, hold their hand and
(46:49):
look at them in the eye and andjust be like, babe, I'm, I'm
sorry that you felt that way.
That sounds painful versus youshouldn't have done that Right.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
What would you say to somebody who is listening to
this episode and they're like,wow, we need to go see a
financial therapist, but theyknow their partner is not going
to be on board.
What would you tell them to do?
Speaker 3 (47:14):
That's a great question because I often am
working with only one person inthe partnership.
So the when we and this isprobably part of the marriage
and family therapy background Isee things as systems.
So even if your partner isn'tthere, we can work deeply on
(47:35):
your money story and look atyour money beliefs, your money
mindset, begin to maybe heal orget more context, more
understanding, and then thatusually will naturally lead to
more satisfying conversationswith your partner.
But also I have some realspecific tips and sort of
(47:55):
structure to begin to shift thatconversation.
And they take those home andthey try them and then we talk
about how it went.
So it is very effective, evenif it's just you.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
That's good.
It's like when all the memesare like I go to therapy because
the people in my life whoshould be in therapy refuse to
go, so now I need therapy tofigure out how to deal with the
people who my life, who shouldbe in therapy, refuse to go.
Like, so now I need to.
I need therapy to figure outhow to deal with the people who
refuse to go to therapy.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
Right, Right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
You were going to say something.
No, okay, I feel like we couldtalk to you for hours one day.
Speaker 2 (48:32):
Is there any oh, I do have one.
One more thing, one question.
So say somebody for maybe alistener out there and they
really haven't maybe thoughtabout financial therapy prior to
this conversation or knew itexisted knew it existed, right.
What are some things whereyou're like you could say to
somebody like hey, if this isgoing on, if you're thinking
(48:53):
this way, then maybe financialtherapy may be um beneficial for
you.
Speaker 3 (48:58):
Yeah, yes.
The way I usually say this ishave you ever lost sleep
thinking about money?
Have you ever cried about money?
Have you ever had a fight aboutmoney?
Have you ever felt frustratedwhen you go to the car repair
store and they tell you you needfour new tires, do you feel
(49:20):
overwhelmed?
Do you feel you know all thesedifferent things like those are
all emotions that come up, andfinancial therapy is a great
place to come in and begin totalk about those so that you can
shift from feeling like I'llsay often it feels like the
emotions are driving instead ofyou driving, and so we want to
(49:43):
restore your sense of agencyhere.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
That's great.
That's great advice.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
Well, I think everybody can check that box.
That's one of those questionsright Feeling frustrated, crying
, losing sleep.
I mean yes.
Right, feeling frustrated,crying, losing sleep.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
I mean yes and the easy breakdown is that, like you
know, you deal with theemotions and one of my kind of
like lines that I say is that Itake the.
I try to help you take some ofthe emotions out of the decision
making process yeah, you cansay that a lot, yeah, absolutely
yeah but you got.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
You got to get your emotions right.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Yes, yes, we address the emotions, so they're in the
right place, but then let's lookat it from a logical standpoint
and try to not make decisions.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
Based on emotions, right, right.
Well, you got to unblock someof that stuff first.
Right, you got to really get tothe root.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
Yeah, you're never going to be completely separate
of emotion, because we all haveemotions and we all I mean I'll
even have some emotionattachments to my money, and I
think I'm pretty good at, youknow, keeping those in check.
So it's also being realisticwith yourself.
It's not going to be completelyabsolve yourself from any
emotions Like that's, unlessyou're a sociopath or something.
Speaker 3 (50:47):
Yeah, yeah, well, you're right, the goal isn't to
detach from the emotions, it'sto um, have a different relate
like, shift your relationship tothe emotion so that you're more
like oh, I see you there,thanks for showing up.
I will feel this Um, and then,after I feel the emotion, maybe
um, whatever it is then then Iwill make that financial
(51:08):
decision, um, but it's with thatcompassion and curiosity and
openness to it instead of um,because often what happens when
we judge it, then we get intoeither a fight or flight or
freeze, lots of freeze when itcomes to money, um.
And so I think that, brandon,was where you, you're able to
come in and look at a lot ofdata without the emotion, um,
(51:29):
whereas someone trying to dothat without your support, um,
may avoid it for five to 10 or12 years or 20 years.
I just didn't get to that.
But what really?
It's not just that they didn'tget to it, they're not
procrastinators, they just aredisconnected from the emotions
that are blocking it.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
Wow.
Well, you are doing reallypowerful work.
This is so interesting.
Is there anything that youwould like to leave our audience
with?
Because I know we talked a lotabout the mindset and you know
money is morally neutral andyou're not a bad person if you
have debt and just those thingsthat I think really burden
(52:10):
people.
But is there something you'dlike to leave our listeners with
today?
Speaker 3 (52:15):
Well, I think always that level of compassionate
curiosity and zero judgmentbeginning to make that shift and
this is that's a challengingshift, but beginning to make it
can be really powerful.
I also have a quiz on mywebsite.
That's a great place to start,especially for a couple, because
if you both take it, then allof a sudden you have it's the
(52:38):
money shadow quiz.
So it's kind of helping youidentify what might be getting
in the way, and then I havesupports that will come into
play to begin to work with that,and that's a great place for
individuals or couples to startto begin to get a feel for maybe
have some new words to put tothings as well.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (52:59):
Yeah, we can leave that in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
Absolutely.
Where can people find you,wendy, if they want to connect?
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (53:04):
it is wendywrightfinancialtherapycom.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
Perfect.
We will make sure to link thatin the show notes.
Thank you for your expertiseand your insights on this very,
very important topic, and thankyou for the work that you're
doing, helping people breakthrough, get rid of the shame,
really understand their moneystory so that they can lead
better lives, whether they're anindividual or in a partnership.
(53:31):
So thank you for being with ustoday.
Speaker 3 (53:33):
Yeah, you bet my pleasure.
Thanks for having me andbringing awareness to this
dynamic.
Speaker 1 (53:38):
Absolutely so important.
Don't forget.
Benjamin Franklin said aninvestment in knowledge pays the
best interest.
You just got paid.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
Until next time, sugar Daddy Podcast yo Learn how
to make them pockets growFinancial freedom's where we go.
Speaker 1 (53:55):
Smart investments, money flow.
Thanks for listening to today'sepisode.
We are so glad to have you aspart of our Sugar Daddy
community.
If you learned something today,please remember to subscribe,
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(54:19):
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(00:51):
In today's episode, we speak tofinancial therapist Wendy Wright
, who blends psychology andmoney to help people transform
their relationship with finances.
If you need a judgment-freeconversation and way to approach
navigating spending, saving andfinancial blocks, this episode
is for you.
Hey, babe, what are we talkingabout today?
(01:22):
Today we are talking aboutsomething that we mention often,
which is how money is emotionaland how we really have an
emotional connection to whetherit's positive or negative to our
money, and we talk about this alot.
So we figured it was time tobring in somebody who actually
knows what they're talking about.
And so we are talking to afinancial therapist today, which
I think is so exciting becausewe're going to dig into our
(01:44):
emotions and our mindset aroundmoney with somebody who does
this for a living.
Wendy, welcome to the SugarDaddy podcast.
We're so happy to have you.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Hi, I am very excited to be here and I think that
it's just really fantastic thework you guys are doing.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Thank you so much.
Well, we want to make sure thatour listeners know exactly who
we're speaking to, so we'regoing to get into your bio and
then, of course, we're going toget into your first money memory
, because that is how we like tostart our guest conversations.
Wendy Wright is a financialtherapist who blends psychology
and money to help peopletransform their relationship
(02:23):
with finances.
With a background in therapy,coaching, real estate and
business, she brings a unique,judgment-free approach to
navigating spending, saving andfinancial blocks.
Based in Denver and workingvirtually worldwide, wendy
supports individuals, couples,entrepreneurs and working
professionals.
Her insights have been featuredin outlets like CNBC,
(02:45):
quickbooks and various podcastslike the Stacking Benjamins
podcast.
Welcome to the Sugar Daddypodcast.
Thank you, wendy.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yeah, thanks, Jessica .
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I'm thrilled to be here.
I'm so glad.
All right, let's get into yourfirst money memory.
We always love to know ourguests' kind of origin stories
and their first thoughts andfeelings and memories around
money.
So we'd love to hear yourstoday.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Yeah, okay.
So when I think about this,usually the first one that pops
up for me is when I bought myfirst toy and I don't know if
anybody remembers this one, butit was a Chrissy doll who had
this button on her belly buttonand you push it and her hair
would grow, and then you push itagain and the hair would come
(03:30):
back in.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah, you're nodding Jessica have you seen this
before.
So I remember vividly wantingone and not getting one.
So I remember yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Well, I think she had a pretty big impact on me too,
because, um the one I got wasredheaded and um later on in
life, I went through probablylike two decades where I was
coloring my hair red.
So I can only say that that wasan origin story for, uh, my red
hair days as well.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
I love it.
So important question did youcut her hair when you press the
belly button?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
and it went long.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Okay, cause I think I would have cut her.
Cut the hair, yeah, probably.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
No, I am not.
Um I I didn't cut any of mydoll's hair.
I was like I don't even cut myown I like I'm.
I just have this thing whereI'm scared to cut my hair.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
I don't cut my own hair, but definitely all my
Barbies, all of my my baby dolls.
They had terrible bangsterrible haircuts?
Absolutely, it was a thing.
Yeah, like the bangs that areup to here, kind of thing.
Yeah, exactly.
So did you buy the Christy dollwith?
Speaker 3 (04:38):
your own money or was it a gift, or what?
Speaker 1 (04:39):
was the story there.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
I remember in my memory I bought it with my own
money.
I'm guessing that was likeChristmas birthday money,
because I was like 10-ish, youknow, like young enough not to
have a job yet, and so that wasanother thing I remember about
thinking it was really specialbecause I had bought it myself.
I'm sure then I was a littlemore bossy with my little
(05:03):
brother that he probably wasn'tallowed to touch it.
I can only imagine.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
It becomes more precious when you spend your own
money.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Yeah, yeah, it definitely does.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
All right, real quick .
I want to speak to the personlistening who feels like they
can't work with a financialplanner yet because they're
carrying a lot of debt.
First of all, I see you and Ineed you to know.
You're not broken, you're notbehind.
You're just in a tough season.
I created something just foryou because I've had people
reach out who are serious aboutchanging their money story.
But the full financial planningpackage just wasn't the right
(05:40):
fit yet.
So I built a new servicethrough Oak City Financial
that's focused completely ondebt reduction no fluff, no
shame.
You'll get a one-time planningsession, a personalized payoff
strategy, your own financialdashboard and monthly coaching.
If you want extra support whileyou climb out, it's $300 to get
started and $100 a month.
If you want that ongoingguidance, that's it.
(06:02):
This is about helping you getunstuck, not making you feel
like you failed.
If this sounds like what you'vebeen needing, go ahead and
schedule a call with me.
The link is in the show notes.
Let's take the first steptogether.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Well, how did we get from the Chrissy doll?
And then you have kind of realestate.
I know you've done some houseflipping and I mean you've had
quite the background.
What led you into financialtherapy?
I mean that's a very new andniche space.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
It is.
It's still relatively new, soI'm really glad to have the
opportunity to explain to youraudience what it is.
That is still often when Ispeak, um, or you know, when I'm
meeting with potential newclients, um, usually when I
speak, only maybe 1% of thepeople have even heard the
phrase before, so it's stillreally new.
(06:57):
Um, for me it seemed like whenI got to it it was just this big
aha of okay, this was all myhistory and one of my.
I think it's on my about page,but often I have said I feel
like my life is like a quilt,like you're just putting all the
squares in and you don't reallyknow the design until you look
(07:20):
at it.
So when I found financialtherapy, I've been a therapist
for 25 years and this was about10 years ago.
I was working this long storyshort, but because there's a lot
to this, I was working in highlevel eating disorder care.
I'm also an eating disorderspecialist and intuitive eating
counselor and in my in mybackground.
But I because of my businessbackground, because I was in
(07:43):
mortgage banking and I flippedhouses and you know, even a
therapy practice as a business.
I've been in private practicebefore and, as my clients would
either demonstrate some moneybehaviors such as um, these were
patients at high level eatingdisorder care, so everything got
delivered to the front desk andthere would be like a hundred
(08:03):
boxes a day coming in there andto me I was like that's
interesting and curious.
And I began talking to clients,patients, about it and found
they were often because theycouldn't use the eating disorder
behaviors they were shifting,often into some kind of money
behavior.
For instance, maybe shopping was.
(08:25):
I'd say, show me what youbought.
We'd pull it up on the screenand they'd say this is what I
got.
And it was so, so cool.
Because they were using thesame exact words, like if they
were using an eating disorderbehavior such as restriction or
binging, it would be so I don'tget fat, so I can be accepted,
(08:47):
so I can, you know, be normal,you know whatever there's.
Then they were buying thist-shirt like well, I wanted to
get that shirt because then Iwould feel like I fit in, I'm
accepted, I feel normal, I feellike I would be thin, you know
all of those kinds of things.
And I was like this is reallyinteresting, um, so then I began
(09:08):
literally to Google um, hasanyone else noticed the
connection between money andemotions and, as you may or may
not have heard at this point,there's research done now, so
that's helpful, but, um, upwards, like research will tell you,
80 to 90% of our financialdecision-making is emotionally
driven yes, makes sense.
(09:29):
And so started to put all thattogether and then went back into
private practice at the timeand then, exclusively now, I
focus on financial therapy.
I also got money, coachingtraining, so I have this really
unique blend of the therapeuticapproach and coaching training.
So, um, uh, I have this reallyunique blend of the therapeutic
approach and coaching tools, andthen we look at it from the
(09:49):
therapy lens and do all thesekinds of things with it.
So it helps to, uh, reallycreate some change, but not just
change, but change that'ssustainable.
That's so important to me.
Like we can all do somethingfor about 21 days, right, but
then what about a year later?
You know what about threemonths later?
So we want it to be sustainable.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
For the audience, to kind of help them have a better
understanding of what financialtherapy is, can you kind of
explain a little bit more ofwhat it is and what it's not?
Speaker 3 (10:28):
more of what it is and what it's not.
Yes, it's just a great questiontoo, because, as I have even
trained therapists to dofinancial therapy, that was a
big part too.
Like, where do you draw theline Financial therapy?
And even because I'm alsotrained in coaching, so there's
even a, you know, there'stherapy, there's coaching,
there's coaching, um, there'sadvising and planning, um,
there's also, um financialcounselors, which often is very
(10:51):
different than financial therapy.
So it's, it's a great thing tobe able to distinguish there.
Um, so I'm a licensed therapistand a marriage and family
therapist, which is why it'sgoing to be great for us to also
talk about couples.
But in the financial therapy,the way I describe it every
(11:11):
session, we talk about money.
In other therapies, which we'llcall them other traditional
therapies, you may or may nottalk about money, and a lot of
my clients will come to me.
Sometimes therapists will sendtheir clients will come to me.
Sometimes therapists will sendtheir clients to me to do the
money work, because theyrecognize every time we kind of
(11:31):
got close to money, my therapistwas like I don't really feel
comfortable talking about thatand we wouldn't talk about it.
And so there is, like you know,you want to have a certain
level of comfort talking aboutmoney and also, as with any
money work at all, no matterwhat you're in, it's really
important to do your own moneywork first and kind of know your
(11:52):
story and stuff.
So financial therapy is goingto be more about looking at
what's your story, and I alwayssay we look back at the story
for context, not to hang blame.
We don't want to get stuckthere, but we want to see oh
okay, that makes sense why thisis coming up for you or why
you're doing this.
We want to look at the feelingsand so one of the things I will
(12:15):
often do is have people pauseand maybe we're talking about a
certain spending decision-makingand I'll say talking about a
certain spending decision makingand I'll say what was your
feeling?
Now, most people are not usedto describing their feelings, so
sometimes we'll yeah, we'llpull up the feelings wheel,
(12:36):
which you can just Googlefeelings wheel, and you'll get a
ton of really good options andthey'll look at it and they'll
be like, oh, and then they'relike naming four or five
different feelings all around,whatever the spending decision
was.
So we look at that.
Maybe there's healing to dofrom financial trauma or
(12:57):
financial hardships.
Maybe there's grief, work to doaround something that feels
like a financial mistake, workto do around something that
feels like a financial mistake,because often if we feel like we
made a mistake, we can getstuck there, especially if we're
perfectionists like me.
There is also communicationwork, mindset work, all of those
(13:18):
things that really play a role,and so that is where the
therapeutic role comes in.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Okay, I love that.
And to take it to the next, youknow, the next part of that is
what?
Clearly, is it not?
Because I think that's the hardpart for people is that they
start to kind of blur the lines.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it's not investmentadvice.
Okay, um, it's not, uh, sellingany kind of products, you know,
like investment products, orrecommending, um, oh, you need
uh this index fund and or you,you know, kind of, do this.
Um, it's not, um, in many casesit's not going to include
(13:57):
coaching.
It's not going to include, youknow, um, why don't you do this
or why don't you do that?
Uh, tactically, this, or whydon't you do that Tactically.
It is also, it is also not geton a quote unquote budget.
It's not.
(14:20):
Oh, you just need to pay offyour debt.
Or it's not anything with theword just in the sentence,
because it's way more complexthan that.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
That's a really gooddistinction and I love what you
said about doing the work aroundmindset and trauma and building
and showing context.
I think that and I'm you knowwe're going to talk about it,
but I'm sure that comes in a lotwhen you're working with
couples who have varyingbackgrounds and experiences with
(14:48):
money and building that contextcan help you understand well.
Why is my partner the way theyare?
Why does it take them so longto make a decision?
Why do they spend withoutpausing?
You know, whatever directionpeople go, I think that context
is really important.
So thank you for clarifyingthat for us.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Yeah, I think it's also very important to clarify,
because it also helps youdistinguish where you're at in
your journey and what youactually need, because correct
me if I'm wrong as well I wouldsay that, from maybe a
sequential order, that a lot ofpeople maybe need to go work it
out with a financial therapistprior to working with someone
like myself as a financialadvisor.
If that's what they need, Idefinitely have experience
(15:32):
working trying to start workingwith someone.
That's very clear.
Like you're not ready yet,maybe you do need to speak with
a financial therapist prior toworking with me.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
Yes, absolutely.
And I mean tell me what youthink about this.
Like, this is how it turns outwhen they come to me.
Then we talk about um, what isthe role of um, an advisor,
planner kind of person, and thenhow, um, how do you talk to
them?
And I have actually role playedmany times that conversation
(16:05):
because a lot of my clients youprobably have noticed like maybe
their their eyes glaze over orthey seem real distracted or you
know all these sorts of thingsthat are telegraphing to you,
this is too big, I can't touchit yet, kind of feeling.
And then we practice and breakit down to where they can have a
much more satisfyingconversation.
(16:26):
So it works hand in hand reallynicely.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yeah, I try to incorporate, you know, aspects
of behavioral finance, butobviously I'm not a financial
therapist so I cannot go nearlyas deep as you do.
But I do try to address thatbecause, like you said, if it
was just simply you know peoplehaving, it was just simply the
numbers, it'd be easy.
And that's 1% of what I do andthat's 1% of how people even
(16:52):
make decisions.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Everything is an emotional attachment.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Yeah, absolutely, if I came to you, wendy, as a first
time client.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
What would our first session be like?
Great question, the firstsession is I'm doing a lot of
listening and you're going to doa lot of talking, so we really
want to go back into essentially, tell me your story through the
lens of money, and this issomething most people have never
done, never even thought aboutdoing.
(17:26):
So we start looking back toearly money memories because
they usually tell us something.
So when we begin to do that wemay start at maybe the first
memories are in elementaryschool, maybe the first memories
are in high school.
We go through, I'll askquestions like when you got your
(17:47):
first paycheck, what did youthink and feel?
What was the job of that money?
What was the function of it?
For a lot of people that firstpaycheck, the job was the
ability to make independentdecisions and which is really
really powerful to see, becausethat's one of um.
One of my favorite reframes ofmoney is to look at it as a
(18:11):
decision-making issue, so thatwe can stop Um.
We can easily get stuck on theword money and think money is
the problem.
Quote unquote.
I'm using air quotes Um, and sothat really helps us begin to
open that up to see what'sreally going on.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah, how long do people typically and I'm sure it
varies, but what is if there isan average of how many times
would I see you to have my Idon't know my money breakthrough
or really understand why?
I am the way I am or feel theway I feel about my money.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Yeah, it is so.
Of course, the answer is itdepends.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
But based on my experience.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
It depends, we'll see .
One of the ways that we beginto look at it is you can have a
breakthrough in the firstsession.
Often in the first or secondsession telling the story,
clients will kind of have someof those lean back moments of
like, oh my gosh, I had no idea.
(19:14):
Like now that I'm saying it outloud, it makes perfect sense,
you know, kind of thing.
So there's a lot of insightgained from looking at the story
and talking it through.
The story and talking it throughTypically it's easily three to
six months of work is a goodframe for it because it's not
fast work.
But I do personally try toblend the sort of like the long
(19:38):
term trajectory with short termgains or changes so that they
feel a momentum, because that'sreally important when you're
trying to make a change.
One of the biggest things thatwill start to help it feel
better is just the fact thatthey've started talking about it
in a safe, non-judging place.
Because seriously, raise yourhand, but not if you're driving,
(20:00):
of course.
But you know you guys raiseyour hand if you've ever
experienced a completelynon-judging place to talk about
money.
Most people have not.
So that in and of itself canreally be a game changer.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, one of the driving factors behind us
starting the podcast was tonormalize conversations about
money.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Yes, without the shame and guilt and fear and
stigma and all the things thatcome with talking about money,
you know, and then especially in, in, uh, communities of color,
a lot of times it's don't talkabout money because it's rude,
it's disrespectful, it's private, et cetera, et cetera.
So then we miss a lot of thevaluable lessons that we wish,
(20:40):
looking back, we would havelearned about.
You know, saving spending,value-based spending, better
decision-making, et cetera.
So, um, yeah, really important.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
So have you seen where maybe you were working
with someone on an individualbasis and they have a
breakthrough and you know, theystart to interact with money in
a much more healthy state, butthen they get into a
relationship and they end upcoming back with their partner
because I think that's acompletely different phase in
their life and they may be ableto address different things when
it comes to that aspect.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Absolutely yes, um.
Because well, I'll ask you guys, you know a lot of couples like
have you ever met a couple thathad the exact same money story,
or not even the exact same, um,annual income?
You know like so the amount ofdifferences.
If you think about itmathematically, you just sort of
extrapolate like the differentinput coming into every decision
(21:34):
, and then if most of thosedecisions aren't talked about,
then you know a year later or afew years later, they're feeling
icky and they're like I don'tknow what's going on, we're
stuck.
And then we open it up infinancial therapy and start
talking about it and it reallymakes a difference.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
So I feel like I could think of you know from my
end, as far as some of thedifferent phases that people go
through in their lives on, likehow you might be like I said in
this scenario, you're fine as anindividual Then maybe, when it
comes to being in a relationship, you need some help.
I can even think past that.
You know, once you have kids,once you know if you were maybe
(22:12):
perhaps to become a caretakerfor your parents and having to
manage their finances I couldthink of so many different ebbs
and flows through your lifewhere you might need that
financial therapy or evenplanning the wedding right?
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Oh, I want a small wedding, you want a big wedding.
I mean those budgets can varygreatly.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Right, right, and and and the um.
Oh gosh, we could spend a wholeout five hours talking about the
wedding.
Um.
However, what we'll just let'skind of boil it down to, it's
about decision-making and it'sabout having an awareness of
what are the factors playinginto each decision.
For instance, we'll just pickon the wedding for a minute.
(22:51):
Let's say you know you're amonth away and you've got all
this stuff lined up, and thenyou find out you're going to
have to pay twice as much forthe photographer, for instance.
And then you're just likeyou're.
So perhaps you're so tired ofmaking decisions you're not
going to make one, but you're,you know you're.
So perhaps you're so tired ofmaking decisions You're not
going to make one, but you're,you know you're making one.
By not making one, you're likefine, we'll do it, we just have
(23:12):
to get this over with kind of,okay, normal, we're not going to
judge it, but also we're goingto recognize wow, okay, that
played a role.
Like decision fatigue played arole.
Like decision fatigue played arole.
Conflict avoidance plays a role,like all of these different
things.
Pleasing parents plays a role,pleasing the or like fitting in,
(23:36):
pleasing the community,whatever.
They all play a role, all playa role, and weddings tend to
sort of be this um, uh, like bigwave of all of those things
come together at once, feelingum, and then when I'm working
with people during before andduring the wedding, then after
(23:57):
the wedding there's tends to bea lot of grief work we do
because it didn't go the waythey hoped.
So we try to talk that throughbefore each of those decisions
happen.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Now, do you, in these sessions, do you dig into the
numbers and actually create aplan for, maybe, how a couple
could pay off the wedding?
Or maybe the goal is, we don'twant to have a wedding with debt
, so how can we have the weddingthat we want within?
You know this budget I know youdon't like that word.
(24:33):
We can get into that, um, butare you actually like digging
into the numbers and helpingpeople solution what they can
actually afford?
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Yes, um, okay, you're bringing up some really good
stuff.
So let me preface this with acouple of things.
So I've put together 10principles of financial therapy
so that just to kind of helppeople understand what the heck
is this stuff.
So let's start with the firstone and then I'll jump into
(25:05):
another one.
But the first one is toapproach money with abundant
compassionate curiosity and zerojudgment.
So we start there.
That usually is a huge gamechanger for people to have that
compassion, curiosity and zerojudgment.
So, as someone's comingtogether, then also not having
(25:26):
that judgment can be reallyimportant, because part of
judgment isn't always likehardcore, like oh, that's bad or
whatever.
Sometimes it's just like apreconceived notion of commonly,
like I'm stressed, okay, thatmeans something different to
everybody.
So beginning to open that upand like, well, what does that
(25:47):
mean if you're stressed, well,I'm, I'm worried about this and
or I'm worried about this.
So we kind of begin to do thatin relationships.
Then we want to begin to lookat the plan and let I do move
away from the word budget,because often that word has a
history.
I haven't met anybody yet thatdidn't have that word, have a
(26:11):
history and emotional sort ofbaggage, so to speak, like that,
it feels restrictive, it feelsperfectionistic, it feels um,
and often budgets are based onnot real numbers.
They're based on what we shouldor shouldn't do, and so if
you've heard any you know verymuch about should and shouldn't,
that's usually like a clue thatthere might be some shame.
(26:32):
And shame does not help us makedecisions.
It actually inhibits ourdecision making.
So we want to see that.
So, yes, then we start lookingat the overall plan, because a
lot of times, what happensbefore you do this work, before
you get this um more healedrelationship with money and
planning, we tend to make ourdecisions based on the moment.
(26:57):
So, in other words, um, let'ssay, uh, a t-shirt Okay, and we
all have a.
Um, a t-shirt Okay, and we allhave a quiet, secret price point
that a t-shirt should cost.
Maybe it's $2, maybe it's 200,but you, you know, or you're
just looking at this saying,okay, well, I'm using my
(27:22):
reference point, I'm going to goshop for this t-shirt, and if
it's, if I think they should allbe $10 and they're on sale for
$8.99, I'm going to get excitedand think I got a deal right,
and then good for me.
And if it's $12, I'm going tobe like.
That is expensive.
So you know, we want to knowwhere is your price point, what
are you starting with and whatare you basing that on?
And for a lot of big purchasesthere's usually a lot of
(27:43):
guesswork going on or it's likewell, so-and-so did it.
So this must be right.
When we begin to work, when I'mworking with a couple, and we
look at the numbers, we bring inthe numbers, because numbers
have an emotional relationshipas well.
For someone, I'll just say Xnumber of dollars is a lot,
(28:04):
whereas for someone else it'snot a lot, right?
And so we want to see that, wewant to talk about that, we want
to know what the numbers are,and so, by naming the numbers in
session, sometimes that meanswe log in to, perhaps we log
into the bank account and welook at what's going on, or log
into their pay stub, becausethere's a high percentage of
(28:27):
people who, um, do not know howmuch they get paid, and so
Brandon says that all the time.
It's the truth right, brandon,yeah, yeah, and so then.
And so that's where financialtherapy can be really helpful,
and the fact that it's virtualis really powerful because
you're on your computer.
So I'm like, okay, log in rightnow, and I'm here to help you,
(28:51):
because, logging in, looking atthe numbers, we don't know what
emotions are going to pop up yet.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
So we look at that Rage when I see the taxes and
the social security numbers comeout, that comes to mind.
And the social security numberscome out.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
That comes to mind.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely,absolutely, which, knowing that
that might come up, would helpyou avoid it, right, like, if
you're like I don't know whatI'm going to do with it, so you
know.
So all of this, so let's comeback to the couple and the plan
of the wedding.
What I want them to see is notjust the wedding, not just this
(29:27):
month.
We want to look out at least 12months.
And for the wedding, I likethem to look out 24 months at
least, because I want them tosee the long-term impact of the
price of the wedding, withoutany judgment, cause we're just
like hey, you get to make thisdecision.
I'm not telling you what to door not do, but I want you to see
the impact.
(29:47):
And what happens with that isthey're able to slow the process
down a little bit, which isobviously.
I've got breathe behind me.
That's a big part of myfoundational journey journaling
exercise.
We start with breath, then wemove to intention and then we
move to an action, to movement.
So let's say we're doing thiswith the wedding, like take some
(30:10):
breaths, all right, I want tohave the perfect wedding.
That's an intention, that's nota goal, that's not an action
step, and then we move into okay, what do you want to do, using
kind of the smart, you know,specific, measurable, attainable
(30:32):
, realistic, time-sensitive sortof framework.
Okay, then what I will do isI'll decide on a number and then
I'll plug it into my overallplan and see how that feels.
Um, because we we don't want tojust feel the run up to the
wedding, we want to feel thepayoff of the debt.
Now, on the flip of that also,if you're, if you come to me
after it's done, because a lotof people will, I don't want to
talk about this till after thewedding.
Right, I'm also, it's reallyimportant to look at debt not as
(30:58):
a number yet, but as anemotional story, because people
who are stressed about theamount of debt they have are
typically stressed about themeaning of the debt, not the
number and so we really makesthem a bad.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
They feel like it makes them a bad person.
They're morally compromised,like all these heavy, usually
not very positive things it's'sassociated with every negative
feeling, every negativestereotype, every negative
viewpoint.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Yes, absolutely, but you can probably attest to this
as well.
In my experience, paying offdebt is very different than
staying out of debt, and I wantto help you stay out of debt.
I don't care about the payingoff of it.
So we're going to start with.
How do we get here and how dowe shift that core
decision-making of using debt asa payment method?
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest things that's
overlooked is how did you getinto debt?
Because if you don't changethat behavior once you paid off
that debt, you're going to goright back into debt, because
you didn't address the rootcause.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Absolutely, absolutely, and as a former debt
cycler I can attest to it's amiserable experience.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Well, and that's why you hear people will do like the
debt consolidation loans, andokay, if I can get this into one
lump sum, it'll be moremanageable, I'll feel better,
and then, yeah, you might pay itoff, but you didn't change your
habits, you didn't really dothe work to understand what got
you there in the first place.
So this is so powerful, wendy.
I mean I feel like at thisstage, everybody should have a
(32:34):
financial therapist before theyget married, because this is big
.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
You're like, yes, One of the things I like that you
said was along the lines of younot telling people you know this
is what you have to do.
So I think a lot of people youknow, when they're working with
a therapist or even withfinancial advising, they think
that I'm here to tell them whatto do and what not to do and I'm
like that is not my role.
You are the one driving thisplan.
(33:00):
I'm simply here to help providesome guidance.
But ultimately you're thedecision maker and you know you
might make decision a, butdecision a can come with pros
and cons and that might, youknow, affect what happens
afterwards.
But you can still make thedecision.
I'm not going to tell you notto.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yeah, but to see the big picture of those decisions.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Well, I think that's one of the biggest things.
People have a hard time takinga step back and looking past
step one, because so many thingsare going on in our life that
you know, outside of just whatyou're trying to do from a
financial standpoint, there's somuch other things going on in
your life that you don't have alot of excess attention that you
can, you know, use.
We're inundated with so manythings and working with someone
(33:41):
like you know yourself, wendy,or if you've gotten past that
point in work, someone like meis that we have the ability to
take a step back and look at thelarger picture so we can see
past step one, two, three, fourand help you with that.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Wendy, what do you see when you're working with
couples, Like if you had to puta theme around your work with
couples.
What do you see?
Speaker 3 (34:03):
a lot of around your, your work with couples.
What do you see?
A lot of.
Well, I would say, thematically, we're doing communication work
.
So that's really a lot ofwhat's going on.
Yeah, yeah, that's really a lotof what's going on is kind of
misinterpreted communication oravoided communication, and so,
(34:30):
um, usually, with when thecouple has a certain level of
affection for each other, we can, we can make some shifts.
If the couple comes and one ofthem just wants me to tell the
other one that they're wrong or,you know, straighten up and
behave Not a good starting point, not a good starting point.
(34:50):
And so, if that energy is there, I recommend they both do
individual work, because there'sjust there's too much there to
come together yet.
But essentially, I willdescribe it as we want to
decrease reactivity in order toincrease connection, and that
connection is both to each other, to yourself and to your
financial future as we begin todecrease reactivity and
(35:15):
reactivity is not just likegetting loud and throwing things
, it's also avoidant, likeavoiding is a reaction, shutting
down is a reaction, leaving theroom is a reaction.
So, as we begin to decreasethat and it will tell you what's
really cool about it is,couples will come back after
three to six sessions as webegin to work on this, and they
(35:35):
will literally I've heard thismany times I didn't think this
was possible, but we went awhole week without a fight, or
you know, like I didn't thinkthis was possible, but we had a
conversation about money and itwent okay, like.
So it's really cool work.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Yeah, and so powerful because I can only imagine.
I mean, we talk about money allthe time, not only because we
have a financial literacypodcast and this is what he does
for work, but we just havegotten in such a rhythm where
it's just a normal dinner tablehousehold conversation when it's
good, bad ugly.
Last week we found out hisout-of-pocket max is $9,000 for
(36:16):
his Achilles, so we're going tohave to plan some things.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
It's like one of those things where, like I pay
attention to normally.
And we didn't, but I didn'tnecessarily pay attention,
because I don't actuallynormally hurt myself.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah, he's a very healthy person.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
But when he goes big, you know when he yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
So it was one of those like okay, well, we
thought okay, once you hit 5,000, maybe 6,000, and now it's
9,000?
Like come on, and so even justthat, you know, we were kind of
standing around having lunch andjust kind of talking through it
, some upcoming expenses, and Ihave to get a crown.
I mean just you know life andwe just talk about it normally.
(36:53):
But I know that for a lot ofpeople those are really heavy,
burdensome conversations becausethere is large amounts of money
attached.
I don't want to spend $9,000 onhis surgery and my crown.
I want to go to Bora Bora withthat money.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Right, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
But I can understand how heavy those topics are,
those day to day you know payingfor camp, paying for daycare,
getting the car, you know, oh, Ineed four new tires for my SUV.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Like that's hundreds if not thousands of dollars, you
know.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
I mean it's, it's the daily life conversations that
if you can't have those in aneutral, like it is what it is,
let's come up with a plan kindof a way I can see how stressful
your home environment can be.
Then too, you know.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
I mean I have definitely had, you know,
meetings with potential clients,you know couples and I can feel
the stress through the zoomcall.
You have them.
They are just not on the samepage at all and I could think of
two distinct couples that Idon't.
They are.
They are divorced now.
I don't necessarily know youknow all the ins and outs of
(38:04):
their relationship and what ledto the divorce, but I could tell
from sitting on thatconversation with them that I'm
not surprised that word ended ifyou didn't address those issues
, cause I could see it rightthere and it's, it's hard.
There's nothing that if,especially when it comes to
couples working with couples, ifyou haven't done the work to be
on the same page before youcome to me, I'm not going to be
(38:24):
able to help you.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Yeah, right, because you are not a therapist.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
I am not a therapist.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Yeah, you are not a family counselor.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
And it's also.
It's also, like I said, I'm nota therapist, I'm not trained in
this, I don't have a backgroundin this, so I don't want to
breach that line of where Ishould stay in my place as your
advisor and then start givingyou personal advice in your
marriage, like I think that'snot my, that's not my role.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
You know how do I?
I speak to financial servicesproviders about how to feel like
you can be compassionate andpresent but also not have
Where's the line, how to notcross that line and when to make
that referral you brought.
(39:11):
You guys just brought up somereally good stuff, though, but I
want to go back to the firstthing that I was really struck
with.
Back to the first thing that Iwas really struck with and I
don't think you'll mind mesaying this about you is this
whole thing about the out ofpocket and not paying attention
and not knowing.
It's because you're human.
It's fantastic, right, like weall do that, so dissolving the
judgment around it.
But if something like thathappens and there's judgment
(39:35):
like I should have known better,then that's a very different
conversation with your spouse,because you are like already
feeling defensive, for instance,or shame or stupid.
That comes up for a lot ofpeople.
They automatically go to I'mstupid.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
And so I should have known better.
Why didn't I know this?
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I think that's the number one reason, especially
for people who are high earnersor have advanced degrees.
That is the number one reasonthat prevents them from doing
anything Like I'm smart, I makea lot of money, I should know
this.
I'm like right.
Last time I checked med, schooldoesn't teach about finances.
So you, being a doctor, not atall.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Well, and I'll even.
I'll kind of add another layer.
Neither one of us went into.
Well, you should have known, orhow did you not know that?
Because you know what we sitdown at open enrollment before
we make the decision togetherevery year, and the whole
family's on my insurance andlisten, you're not going to
catch me.
So we schedule time and I'mlike here's the plan, here's all
(40:37):
the things, what are we goingto need?
What's upcoming, who, who, whoneeds braces, whatever it is,
and we talk about it.
So when we called the insuranceto confirm, hey, what is this
out of pocket?
And she said $9,000.
We both looked at each otherlike, well, we definitely missed
that because we did it together.
So there was.
There was not even anopportunity for blame.
(40:59):
If we're going to blameanything, it's exhaustion and
life and how busy we are.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
And like we clearly missed it.
If anything, honestly I wouldblame myself because of what I
do, for a living, because youusually are really good about
that.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
I'm the one that's normally very on top of this.
So I was like, yeah, but I thinkit's so easy in in a
partnership to be like, well,you should have and you didn't,
and you, you said you were goingto.
But if you're doing it togetherand you're at least trying to
take accountability together,then when stuff like this
happens, okay, well, let'sproblem solve it together, cause
(41:30):
it's not your fault, it's notmy fault.
Yeah, it stinks, and like thiswas not, we're going to be
mindful.
Next, open enrollment, becausewe're not going to want this
again, but there's nothing wecan do and we're not going to
place blame.
So I think, even getting to aplace where you can have those
decisions and make them together, whether they're right or wrong
, then you prevent that nextproblem, which is that blame
(41:54):
that so often is easy to kind ofjust happen.
You know, that's my take.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
Yeah, no, that's great.
I mean, you're kind of giving aliving, real time example of
what it looks like to have donesome of this work, because it's
a lot of times what we talkabout in therapy worlds, like do
the work, and I'm like whatdoes that mean?
Um, so, being able to clear outpockets of judgment and shame
(42:21):
and moralizing that happens alot with money.
Uh, moralizing like oh, youknow you're a good person or a
bad person.
And and then also youdemonstrated learning, because
one of my principles is a planis only as good as the
adjustment process, becausethings like this always happen.
None of us are perfect, so forthat it's a great example, like
(42:44):
if you're like oh, I didn't likehow that felt.
Next year, let's do itdifferently.
On a more like tactical sense,that I encourage people to have
sort of a spreadsheet or a pieceof paper where they fill all
these things out and look ahead,and you're like, okay, let's be
double sure that that's on that, you know that page or that
(43:07):
whatever.
Like so that you have a, notjust a way in that moment to say
I want to remember this nextMay or whenever, but to have
also a system in place that isum like sustainable, but
organized and creates um.
These helps for your memory,because our memories are not
(43:27):
that good.
I don't care how old you areTerrible, and so that happens a
lot with money.
We do a lot of mental math ormental sort of I'll remember
this and we don't.
So we need a system mental mathor mental sort of I'll remember
this and we don't.
So we need a system.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
If, for people who arelistening, they're walking their
dog or driving right now, what,what could you say that they
can take almost immediately intoa conversation with their
partner that can make theirmoney conversations
incrementally better with verylittle effort?
Speaker 3 (44:01):
Yes, I love that question because I have an
answer and it's fun.
One of my other principles isto and you can, you'll remember
this, it's just five, like a fewwords let's take the money word
out of the sentence.
So if you say, for instance, wealways fight about money, and
(44:21):
I'll say, okay, take the moneyword out, tell me what you're
fighting about.
Or if it's like, oh, I didn't,you know, uh, you're spending
too much, all right, take theword spending out, what is
happening too much, what ishappening more than you'd like.
So that begins to really openit up and get it out of this
(44:43):
field of it's just about money,because it's not.
At least 80 to 90% of the timeit's not about money.
So we want to switch out thatword and that usually brings a
lot of insight.
Sometimes it's reallychallenging Because I've had
clients sit with me for 10, 15,20 minutes and they're just like
no, wendy, it's about the money.
(45:12):
And then we get to it and it'sabout, you know, feeling seen,
or feeling respected, or feelingsmart, or feeling all kinds of
things Like.
There's a lot that can come upwith that.
So that's one easy thing youcan do today is take the money
word out of the sentence and seewhat comes up with, of course,
the compassionate curiosity andzero judgment.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Yes, well, I was going to ask, when you take the
money out, what's left?
But I love the peeling back ofthe layers because it it might
come down to how that person isfeeling, either while they're
spending the money or whiletheir partner's spending the
money.
And maybe I would think toprioritization.
Right, maybe one partnerprioritizes spending money on
(45:49):
one thing versus another, orhabits, I mean, is there, is
there a theme behind that thatyou typically see, or something
that comes up often when peopletake the money out?
Of the sentence?
Speaker 3 (46:06):
I'd say it's not surprising if what comes up is
some sort of belief aboutthemselves and money, that is, a
negative self belief such asyou know, like well, I was
trying to make a, you know, asmart decision because I feel
stupid or something like that.
So often it kind of goes underthat.
(46:26):
And, you know, if you thinkabout you know with your partner
, if they share it's, you know,instead of like I spent this on
this, but they share, I wastrying to do this so that people
thought I was smart orsomething like that, like then
you can connect on that level.
You can.
You can meet that person thereand, um, hold their hand and
(46:49):
look at them in the eye and andjust be like, babe, I'm, I'm
sorry that you felt that way.
That sounds painful versus youshouldn't have done that Right.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
What would you say to somebody who is listening to
this episode and they're like,wow, we need to go see a
financial therapist, but theyknow their partner is not going
to be on board.
What would you tell them to do?
Speaker 3 (47:14):
That's a great question because I often am
working with only one person inthe partnership.
So the when we and this isprobably part of the marriage
and family therapy background Isee things as systems.
So even if your partner isn'tthere, we can work deeply on
(47:35):
your money story and look atyour money beliefs, your money
mindset, begin to maybe heal orget more context, more
understanding, and then thatusually will naturally lead to
more satisfying conversationswith your partner.
But also I have some realspecific tips and sort of
(47:55):
structure to begin to shift thatconversation.
And they take those home andthey try them and then we talk
about how it went.
So it is very effective, evenif it's just you.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
That's good.
It's like when all the memesare like I go to therapy because
the people in my life whoshould be in therapy refuse to
go, so now I need therapy tofigure out how to deal with the
people who my life, who shouldbe in therapy, refuse to go.
Like, so now I need to.
I need therapy to figure outhow to deal with the people who
refuse to go to therapy.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
Right, Right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
You were going to say something.
No, okay, I feel like we couldtalk to you for hours one day.
Speaker 2 (48:32):
Is there any oh, I do have one.
One more thing, one question.
So say somebody for maybe alistener out there and they
really haven't maybe thoughtabout financial therapy prior to
this conversation or knew itexisted knew it existed, right.
What are some things whereyou're like you could say to
somebody like hey, if this isgoing on, if you're thinking
(48:53):
this way, then maybe financialtherapy may be um beneficial for
you.
Speaker 3 (48:58):
Yeah, yes.
The way I usually say this ishave you ever lost sleep
thinking about money?
Have you ever cried about money?
Have you ever had a fight aboutmoney?
Have you ever felt frustratedwhen you go to the car repair
store and they tell you you needfour new tires, do you feel
(49:20):
overwhelmed?
Do you feel you know all thesedifferent things like those are
all emotions that come up, andfinancial therapy is a great
place to come in and begin totalk about those so that you can
shift from feeling like I'llsay often it feels like the
emotions are driving instead ofyou driving, and so we want to
(49:43):
restore your sense of agencyhere.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
That's great.
That's great advice.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
Well, I think everybody can check that box.
That's one of those questionsright Feeling frustrated, crying
, losing sleep.
I mean yes.
Right, feeling frustrated,crying, losing sleep.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
I mean yes and the easy breakdown is that, like you
know, you deal with theemotions and one of my kind of
like lines that I say is that Itake the.
I try to help you take some ofthe emotions out of the decision
making process yeah, you cansay that a lot, yeah, absolutely
yeah but you got.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
You got to get your emotions right.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Yes, yes, we address the emotions, so they're in the
right place, but then let's lookat it from a logical standpoint
and try to not make decisions.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
Based on emotions, right, right.
Well, you got to unblock someof that stuff first.
Right, you got to really get tothe root.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
Yeah, you're never going to be completely separate
of emotion, because we all haveemotions and we all I mean I'll
even have some emotionattachments to my money, and I
think I'm pretty good at, youknow, keeping those in check.
So it's also being realisticwith yourself.
It's not going to be completelyabsolve yourself from any
emotions Like that's, unlessyou're a sociopath or something.
Speaker 3 (50:47):
Yeah, yeah, well, you're right, the goal isn't to
detach from the emotions, it'sto um, have a different relate
like, shift your relationship tothe emotion so that you're more
like oh, I see you there,thanks for showing up.
I will feel this Um, and then,after I feel the emotion, maybe
um, whatever it is then then Iwill make that financial
(51:08):
decision, um, but it's with thatcompassion and curiosity and
openness to it instead of um,because often what happens when
we judge it, then we get intoeither a fight or flight or
freeze, lots of freeze when itcomes to money, um.
And so I think that, brandon,was where you, you're able to
come in and look at a lot ofdata without the emotion, um,
(51:29):
whereas someone trying to dothat without your support, um,
may avoid it for five to 10 or12 years or 20 years.
I just didn't get to that.
But what really?
It's not just that they didn'tget to it, they're not
procrastinators, they just aredisconnected from the emotions
that are blocking it.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
Wow.
Well, you are doing reallypowerful work.
This is so interesting.
Is there anything that youwould like to leave our audience
with?
Because I know we talked a lotabout the mindset and you know
money is morally neutral andyou're not a bad person if you
have debt and just those thingsthat I think really burden
(52:10):
people.
But is there something you'dlike to leave our listeners with
today?
Speaker 3 (52:15):
Well, I think always that level of compassionate
curiosity and zero judgmentbeginning to make that shift and
this is that's a challengingshift, but beginning to make it
can be really powerful.
I also have a quiz on mywebsite.
That's a great place to start,especially for a couple, because
if you both take it, then allof a sudden you have it's the
(52:38):
money shadow quiz.
So it's kind of helping youidentify what might be getting
in the way, and then I havesupports that will come into
play to begin to work with that,and that's a great place for
individuals or couples to startto begin to get a feel for maybe
have some new words to put tothings as well.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (52:59):
Yeah, we can leave that in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
Absolutely.
Where can people find you,wendy, if they want to connect?
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (53:04):
it is wendywrightfinancialtherapycom.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
Perfect.
We will make sure to link thatin the show notes.
Thank you for your expertiseand your insights on this very,
very important topic, and thankyou for the work that you're
doing, helping people breakthrough, get rid of the shame,
really understand their moneystory so that they can lead
better lives, whether they're anindividual or in a partnership.
(53:31):
So thank you for being with ustoday.
Speaker 3 (53:33):
Yeah, you bet my pleasure.
Thanks for having me andbringing awareness to this
dynamic.
Speaker 1 (53:38):
Absolutely so important.
Don't forget.
Benjamin Franklin said aninvestment in knowledge pays the
best interest.
You just got paid.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
Until next time, sugar Daddy Podcast yo Learn how
to make them pockets growFinancial freedom's where we go.
Speaker 1 (53:55):
Smart investments, money flow.
Thanks for listening to today'sepisode.
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(54:19):
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Speaker 2 (54:27):
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